MPS: [00:00:00] Hey, law firm owners. Welcome to the Your Practice Mastered podcast. We're your hosts. I'm MPS.

Richard James: I'm Richard James. Michael, today we got a great guest, Todd Farmer from Farmer Wright. His partner, Sam, is off enjoying golf while he's doing the hard work here today, the heavy lifting. And you know, Todd and Sam are past EAY champions in our world. And that says a lot, right? Because they competed against their peers.

But this isn't about us today. This is going to be about Todd and Sam, right, Michael?

MPS: Absolutely is. And Todd, welcome on. Super excited to have you.

Todd Farmer: Hey, I'm glad to be here. I'm an open book. So whatever you want to know, I'll tell you.

Richard James: Oh. Be careful what you

MPS: let's break the ice. Yeah, I know. I was going to say, let's break the ice right off the bat. What, what's something that maybe not everybody knows about you?

Todd Farmer: My first, Rich may know this but you probably don't. My first business venture, I opened a [00:01:00] restaurant at age 25 borrowed more money than I could ever pay back. Went to a bunch of banks and got told no and kept contacting banks with a friend of mine until we opened up a Damon's Franchise restaurant at 25.

That was my first venture.

Richard James: That was that pre, was that pre law school, pre lawyer during,

Todd Farmer: That was After that, let's see, that was after law school. So my background, I was an accountant with Deloitte and Touche, big six accounting firm, went to law school, left that, went to law school, went to Arthur Anderson after law school and had an epiphany and why I wanted to leave, which is a really interesting story.

I'll tell you. And, And then I started my first venture at 25.

Richard James: Nice.

Todd Farmer: So I was [00:02:00] working and I was working at Arthur Anderson, big company, had some good people to work with. And I remember a couple of days in particular, we, we had a day I knew I wasn't cut out for the corporate world. We had a day where I went to my little cubbyhole mailbox and there was a three page memo on the proper procedure for using office supplies. And and, and proper long distance phone procedures. And I said, you know, I'm just I'm not really cut out for the corporate world. And so I started looking for a venture. I had a friend of mine, and I, it's, this is funny, as a, as an entrepreneur, I was looking and this restaurant opportunity came up and I remember going in to tell my boss, You know, I was really pumped up.

I was excited. The bank had approved me and I went to see one of the partners in the firm and he looked at me and he said, [00:03:00] you'll never make it. And I remember my last day, I remember a packing up all of my things. Walking out, walking down the hallway feeling, feeling like getting on the elevator and feeling like I was completely naked and feeling like this is the scariest thing I've ever done.

But I decided when I hit the button going down, I said, Whatever I got to do to make it on my own, I'll make it on my own.

MPS: Love that.

Richard James: Yeah. And therein lies the spirit of an entrepreneur. I mean, that's,

Todd Farmer: Yeah. And so I was in the restaurant business for a while. I got into it to my partner and I had to do a large development agreement. And I realized that was like having a restaurant was like having a newborn. I could never leave it. And we decided we didn't really want to own that type of [00:04:00] business more than an hour away from where we were.

And so we sold that business. And then I went back to the practice of law after that.

MPS: So why don't you tell us a little bit about that, right? How is the journey from that point in the practice of law? What are some of the high points of that entrepreneurial journey now that you've transitioned back?

Todd Farmer: You know, it's funny, I had a clerkship in law school with some lawyers that really didn't like their job, they were not real happy. It was not a positive working environment and it really kind of soured me on the law and that's how I ended up doing tax litigation work in Cincinnati.

That's how I ended up on my own and areas outside of law. And then when I sold our business, I was contacted my banker. It was my banker [00:05:00] at the time said, Hey, you know, this friend of mine that does the legal work for the bank. Why don't you give him a call? He's great. Maybe you would, he's wanting to expand.

And so I met with that gentleman and I had just a, I said, you know, I didn't know what else to do at the time, and he and I got together and gosh, he and I were together for 13 years. Had a great experience, but I got around the right person who liked helping people who was good at helping people.

Willing to try new things and so that's how my entrepreneurial legal journey began then He and I had one other partner at a time and then both of my partners left to become Judges within the fact they both got federal judge appointments within the same month.

Richard James: The Holy Grail

Todd Farmer: Yeah. Yeah and so they went to go be judges and[00:06:00] I had a choice of being on my own or joining a firm and instead I thought, I don't play well with others.

And so I didn't really want to go join a firm. And so actually I sought Sam out, Sam had been with a large firm in St. Louis. He had been with a firm here locally and then he went out on his own. And so I sought Sam out to join me because I wanted somebody who had the nerve to leave the security and safety of an existing job and go try to make it on their own.

Richard James: Did you know his character as a person before this? I'm curious because you know, partnerships

Todd Farmer: had seen him in court. I had seen how he presented himself. He presented himself well. We'd had a case or two together, not a lot but we just started a dialogue and just went from there. And I think we've been together [00:07:00] now probably 12 years, maybe.

Richard James: Nice.

Todd Farmer: 13 years.

Richard James: in that partnership works really well. You guys both have different strengths that you work off of really well.

Todd Farmer: Yeah. And we've always had a common goal and we've always been unselfish with each other and we've always had a common goal. And you know, the one thing I think that's, that's always helped us is we have we're not really married to a certain way of doing things. If there's a better way and there's a better you know, there didn't build a better mousetrap. We've always been willing to try and to push.

Richard James: Yeah, that's great.

MPS: Yeah, I think that's wonderful. So, I mean, Todd, look, obviously there's ups and downs on an entrepreneurial journey. During this journey, was there like one big moment for you that you took as a learning lesson? [00:08:00] And if so,

Todd Farmer: I tell you one thing, one thing my, when my former partner was with me and he left and. You know, I think there was a period of my legal career where I got lazy. I think we were busy for a long time and just had more work than we could do. And the work just came in and I didn't have to, I didn't have to market.

And I didn't have to generate business, business just showed up and I, I, I think I, and then I think we looked up one day and, and we were having to do a lot of work and things that really wasn't our preference and it wasn't it. We weren't building the life and the kind of practice that we wanted, and I think it was because we were just sort of, you know, as I've always said, you know, hope is not a [00:09:00] strategy, right?

And hope is not a strategy. And we were just kind of hoping things will work out. And we didn't have a specific plan. And then really about 15 You know, it's about 15 is when we decided to get serious and get a plan and try to be a little more structured.

Richard James: Yeah, you were spending. So if the adage is correct, you know, like even a beautiful horse has a back end, you are spelling spending more time shoveling the manure than you were riding the horse. Right? I mean, you were doing all the stuff. You really didn't want to do taking all the cases. You really didn't want to take it because you weren't controlling the direction you were going and then you guys decided to make the change and be on purpose with what you did. So what, what was one of the first things that you and Sam decided to do to be on purpose with?

Todd Farmer: Well, One of the first things we decided to do really, you know, something that even, and you've said [00:10:00] this many times is you can't manage what you can't measure. And we really became, a little fanatical about measurement and, you know, I'm an accountant by trade, and so that just sort of goes with that territory.

We started tracking and trying to determine, what was real and where we really were. Numbers don't lie. You can think, but the numbers are what they are. And so we really started focusing on our numbers, and we really started focusing on measurement.

And that was really the turning point for us.

Richard James: What do you say to that attorney who goes, Oh, Numbers, measurement, math, man, I went to law school to avoid numbers in science. I don't like that. I don't know. It's not what I want to do. And they own their own practice. What? What do you say to them?

Todd Farmer: Well, okay, then take your paycheck at the end of the week, move the zero one [00:11:00] column and send me the rest if numbers don't matter.

MPS: hmm. Yeah. Thank you.

Todd Farmer: Okay. That's, that's,

MPS: I love it.

Todd Farmer: that's that. What they're really saying is, I only want to focus on the things I want to focus on. And there may be things that are really important, but they're outside of my comfort zone. So I don't feel comfortable with that.

MPS: Good point. Yeah, that's a very good point. So I, I'm curious, obviously, you know, we had a learning lesson moment, and we know numbers were a moment of clarity. But was there a significant breakthrough moment for you guys with the firm where like the light bulb went off and it was a successful breakthrough moment?

Todd Farmer: Yeah. Yeah. I [00:12:00] I've told this story many times, but we had been at, we had been at one of Rich's events and we, you know, we learned a hundred things that we should have been doing the whole time. And We went back and we said, okay, what's, what's one easy thing that we could do? And I remember we, we, we printed out a list of everybody that didn't hire us in the last 90 days. And I remember her name was Sarah. And I said, Sarah, I just want you to call these people, see if they want to come back in, see if they want to hire us. And we gave her a, you know, a two minute script. And she went back and called, I don't know, she may have called 30 people. Well, we got probably four or five hires that day. And I'm thinking, wait a minute. We just spent, I'm like, well, that just, that [00:13:00] more than just paid for the event that we just went to. And. If it was that easy, just with that little follow up, then maybe we need to put some regular systems in place to be following up with everybody. That was the first, that was our first step.

Richard James: That's what I love about attorneys, Michael. They're bright. You know what I mean? Once they get it, they get it right. So

MPS: It clicks. Yes.

Richard James: you know, you know, it's funny. It's funny to us. I mean, because we, when we go outside the world of. of lawyers, Todd. It's interesting. Most other, not most, many small business owners, especially the younger owners, when I tell them this stuff, they like, yeah, I get that. You have to build follow up sequences and you have to, you know, follow up till they buy, die or unsubscribe.

This language isn't a surprise to them. Yet when we talk to attorneys it's, it's oftentimes like, and not, it's not like you guys didn't [00:14:00] heard it before, but you'd never stop to think about it. And, and I don't know whether that's because my question to you is, do you think that attorneys don't know this stuff as a small business owner?

Because they don't even realize it exists. They don't take the time to study it. They're so myopic in what they're doing. They're too busy working. The case is like, why do you think it is that they, they obviously weren't taught it in law school.

Todd Farmer: yeah, it's a couple of things. One, I think for a lot of people, they really enjoy the cases. This is not, and so they, they, they're hyper focused on the cases. But I think. They, most attorneys spend a lot of time watching LA Law or watching Suits or all these legal shows and they sort of think that you hang up a shingle and clients just magically appear.

They've never been, they've never been taught you can be the best attorney in the [00:15:00] world, but if you can't make the phone ring, you're going to struggle. And I think they just, they've never. They don't appreciate that a significant part of what we do is letting clients know what you can do for

Richard James: Yeah. By the way, did you guys choose a particular practice area because you were billing hours for a while you saw the number?

Todd Farmer: we did. You know, you know, it's funny. We did. I've done tax litigation, estate planning, insurance defense. I've done all these different areas. We've migrated. Over the years and our, you know, one of the things we focus our practice on is, you know, we do a bankruptcy work and now we do immigration work and we kind of, I saw an opportunity one in those areas that I felt like the market was a little underserved and that that was one reason we chose that.

But the other reason I felt like the clients in those practice areas were really [00:16:00] appreciative of the, of the, of the help that you're trying to give them. And I got a little more satisfaction out of that than, you know, knock down litigation work where it feels like, you know, it's a, it's a war and you just hope you're the last one standing.

Richard James: Yeah, nobody wins or family law where nobody wins. I mean, there's, look, we need great family law attorneys. We need great civil litigators. We need great corporate litigate. Those, those people are required. They're needed. And, and, and I, I'm grateful that they're there because they do serve a lot of people.

You got to figure out what's right for you. But if you're in your own practice, regardless of what your practice area is, you do have to understand the basics of business if you want to make sure you maximize your profitability. So, Michael, sorry I cut you off. Did you want to go somewhere else with this?

MPS: Todd, you look like you've got something.

Todd Farmer: No, no, no. I'm, I can talk, I can, as I say, I can talk about me all day, you know.

MPS: Well, speaking of [00:17:00] talking of you and maybe you and Sam, I mean, what are some of the success habits or things that you guys do on a daily basis to help the firm continue to thrive?

Todd Farmer: There's a couple of things that really that we've implemented from working with you all, all these years, is we look every day at how many people contact us. We look at every day, how many people showed up to meet with us. We look at every day on how many people hired us.

We get a report every day at five o'clock, like clockwork, and we check those things. We check those things every week. Another thing that we've one of our focuses now is really customer satisfaction and client satisfaction. And we've put some systems in place where we have notes and we track every phone call that comes into this office where anybody can [00:18:00] review and see the notes from that conversation at any time.

A lot of times we have to make difficult phone calls and we have to tell clients things they don't want to hear. But at the end of the day, they needed to hear it. And so hearing it is better than not knowing and so we're pretty fanatical about communication with everyone that we represent.

Let's see, We are you know, one thing we're up. We're a little different. We're one. We're pretty much a virtual practice. You know, you'll have a lot of people that will say, well, I'm in a small town and I can't do that or that won't work in my market and all that. Well, you know, we're in a, we're in a town of about 60, right?

thousand people and we're probably the, well, we are, we're the biggest, probably one of the big, if not, we're probably, well, we are the biggest bankruptcy firm in the entire state. [00:19:00] So we operate all over the state and we work with one thing we've done, you know, we, we hire a lot of people throughout, We have employees throughout the state and what I've done.

is we've hired the right person

MPS: hmm.

Todd Farmer: No matter where they are, whether they're in a they're in Elizabethtown or Louisville or Bowling Green or wherever Pikeville, we've got people over the state. And what I found is there's an old saying that thoroughbreds don't like to work with donkeys and we've hired thoroughbreds and the people that work for us, we chose them and they chose us.

If you get the right person in today's world, it doesn't matter where they're located. If you get the right people, the right people can run your organization and I think a lot of lawyers are still hung up in that, well, I can't have someone that's not [00:20:00] sitting right outside my door and we got to move past that mindset.

Richard James: I think there's probably some attorneys who are listening to this right now and they're saying to themselves oh, my gosh, that sounds expensive. I want to be clear. You guys have grown with profitability in mind, right? I mean, you didn't grow for the sake of growing. You don't have all these expenses and you and Sam aren't making anything.

I mean, you guys pay attention to the bottom line. Is that correct?

Todd Farmer: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, we could have had a firm probably twice the size that we have today, but, you know, we could have employed 100 people and not made any money. And that was never really our goal. Our goal has been to kind of, methodically grow our practice in a manner that makes sense where we're, you know, getting a good return.

And, but, and, you know, it, it's actually can be [00:21:00] cheaper. We've hired some really quality people who may have a certain skill that they really can't employ in their town. If you have a social security disability paralegal who's got 20 years experience, but they move to a small town out in the country because they want to retire, well, there may not be 10 jobs for that person.

But if that person can work remotely, I get the benefit of their skill set and then they get the benefit to live their life the way they want to live it. So it's not necessarily more expensive.

Richard James: The largest bankruptcy attorney firm in Kentucky out of Paducah. Who would have thunk it? Right. Did, did, did, did you guys, did you, did you see that? I mean, did you, when you started,

Todd Farmer: know, we had this as a goal and I'll tell you what happened. One thing during COVID this really COVID, [00:22:00] I remember when COVID was first happening and we were panicked like everybody else, you know, and I remember sitting in Sam's office and I said, you know, Sam, I said, this is going to be kind of like a war, you know, everybody comes out of a war.

A little battered, a little worse for wear, a little bloodied. But the key is you want to be the one that comes out of it. So we can, we can sit on our hands and just, and hope, which is, as I said earlier, it's not a very good strategy, or we can view this as an opportunity because. We, we had, we had started doing remote consultations about six months prior to COVID.

We were doing remote consultations for people. People were still a little, just, it just was a little clunky, a little [00:23:00] uncomfortable. And we viewed COVID as an absolute opportunity. Because once doctors started doing telehealth, it completely legitimized virtual consultation for the rest of us. So, we spent more on advertising and promotion and things during COVID than we had ever spent at any point in our time together in an attempt to try to grow our footprint at a time when everybody else was laying back.

Richard James: Yeah, that's what I've said many times through my life. Difficult times are when you, you, you know, you really show up because anybody can make it when it's easy, right? 2009 1011 is a bankruptcy attorney. My gosh, anybody could have made a few bucks, right? But, you know, when, when you're going through the dark times for bankruptcy through those covert years and [00:24:00] it's tough, right?

That's when you show up and that's when you, you guys looked at it as an opportunity and said, let's arrive like nobody else. Let's figure out how to take advantage of this market. And that's 1 of the things I always admire about you and Sam that you, you, you know, to your point, you started as a businessman 1st.

Sam showed the chutzpah of opening up his own practice and walking away from the security of a job. And the two of you together are not married to any, what we call, sacred cows. And you're always looking for better and more unique ways to do things that are going to get you to your end goal. And you hire great people and you, and you've become the largest provider in the state.

And I'm, I'm curious, Michael what, what do you think, where do you think they go from here?

MPS: Yeah, I mean, it's a great question. Todd, what's, what's got you fired up today? Maybe it's business. Maybe it's personal. Maybe it's both, but what's got you fired up and excited?

Todd Farmer: Yeah, a couple of things. I just think there's some more juice in the orange. We've got some opportunities to grow in other directions. [00:25:00] We're moving in, you know, we've really enjoyed the immigrant community and doing immigration work.

We're going to grow that practice area. We're going to expand our footprint and We're gonna try to further automate our practices, but one thing we're really going to focus on based upon just, you know, the book that I'm reading right now is, is how do we improve the client experience, you know, when I was in the restaurant business, and one of the reasons that I, that I left the restaurant business is I used to, I hated going in on Sunday.

I hated it. I would wake up. Because the after church crowd was the most unforgiving crowd of the week, you

Richard James: There's the irony.

Todd Farmer: yeah, in that already. Yeah, and I hated going on Sunday and I used to say in the restaurant business If you have, if you serve a good meal, they tell, they'll go out and tell one person that if they have a [00:26:00] bad experience, they tell 10 and so what we're trying to do is what we want to grow a little bit organically and so what we're going to focus on this year is if we can improve the experience that people have with us through a difficult time, we think they can become our best cheerleaders. And so we're really focusing this year, me, especially for the next four months is focused on improving people's perception of the legal process and how we handled them and how we took care of them from start to finish. That's really going to be my focus over the rest of the year.

Richard James: I'm really interested in what you're going to, how, because you're, you're maniacal about, maniacal is not the right word, but you're fanatical about measuring everything. Right? Because that's what we learned all together. And so what gets measured magnifies. I'm curious as to, [00:27:00] as to how you and Sam are going to come up with metrics to measure.

The success of your micromanaging the client experience and improving client satisfaction. And that's a probably an entire topic in and of itself, but I'm really interested in watching you guys plan that out and figure what needle has to move to make you feel like you're moving in the right direction, right?

Is it Google reviews? Is it referrals? And what does that look like? And how does it look? I can't wait to see that.

MPS: Absolutely. Well, Todd's question. If people obviously don't give out your number, but

Richard James: Don't give your cell

MPS: wanted to. Yeah. Yeah. If people wanted to connect with you or even Sam, what's a good way to get ahold of you?

Todd Farmer: You know, if someone listens to this and they've got questions about our journey or experience they can email, you can email Todd, T O D D at farmerright. com, F A R M E R W [00:28:00] R I G H T. com. You can email Todd at farmerright. com and One of my assistants will review that and get that to me and then I'll look, I, I've you know, as I've gotten older, I've really appreciated coaching. I've really appreciate it. I thought for, I'm really a little irritated at myself that I have this period of stagnation from about 25 to 35 where I thought I didn't need any help, right? And I thought I could do everything on my own. But as I've gotten older, I have an appreciation for coaching and, you know, rich, you've been a coach to me for a long time and look, I've got a golf coach and I've got all these other coaches and, you know, and I, I love help.

I love the, I can see that the coaches that I use love to help the people that they're helping. And so if someone wants to reach out, I get, I've got three or four friends right now that are [00:29:00] outside of the legal community. And they call me and we spent a lot of time talking about micromanaging their client experience, their sales process.

And I've, I've really, I've really gotten a lot of satisfaction out of paying that forward.

Richard James: Especially when they do something with it, right? It's mind numbing when you tell them what to do and then they don't do anything with the

Todd Farmer: So I had a friend who will probably listen to this and I won't say his name and I was trying to help him. He's got a retail. establishment and I made him go out and buy some note cards, right? I made him go out and buy index cards and I made his salesman turn in their number of calls that they made that day and their number of sales.

You know, you know all this and I made him, let's go back to the basic, let's do it on note cards and like 30 days later. [00:30:00] I mean, he looked at me like a deer in the headlights. He said, I just can't believe how much difference that make. I just can't believe how much ourselves and things are up. And I said, and you know, is Blaine would say you bring about what you think about right and just focusing on those things and having it top of the mind awareness.

That's what makes the difference.

Richard James: I love it. So, if anybody's out there listening to this and they don't know what the first thing to do, grab a pen, grab note cards, and start keeping track of what's going on. Don't worry about software, don't worry about spreadsheets, don't worry about anything else. Keep it basic and you'll be surprised the revelation you'll have and the moves that will happen just because you started.

Fair statement, Todd?

MPS: Absolutely.

Todd Farmer: That's it. That's how you get started because what that does, it's a low cost investment that yields big results, which will convince you to take it to the next level.[00:31:00]

MPS: Great. Well, Todd, thank you for imparting the journey, your wisdom, just all these little tidbits of advice throughout. We're super appreciative of it. And to all the law firm owners listening around here, we have the gentlemen's agreement and what that is for us is. Look, we invest our time, money, and resources into the podcast, which we love doing.

We love producing it, but if this is not your first time watching or listening, depending on the platform you're on, make sure you hit that subscribe or follow button and then drop a like down below. Comment if you've got any questions and if you have a law firm owner friend that could use some help, feel free to share this podcast or this episode with them, but we're super appreciative for all of you that are watching or listening and Todd certainly appreciative of you

Todd Farmer: Anytime. Glad to be here.

Richard James: Yeah, man, I appreciate you appreciate your friendship and your relationship from a business perspective all these years I do hope Sam wins his match today. That'd be good news. That'd be

Todd Farmer: You know, it's so

Richard James: on top

Todd Farmer: It's so funny. He, he is[00:32:00] a little overly analytical, you know, he loves software, right? And he loves the software and he loves all the analytical stuff. And He's, as he's trying to learn how to play golf, he's become way too analytical about, well, wait a minute, if I'm like only 80 yards, do I bring the club to here?

Do I bring it here? Do I bring it here? I'm like, is it a 30%? And I'm like, no, you just kind of got to walk up there and just kind of feel it, you know? So,

Richard James: see this is why you beat me in golf because I too and me and

Todd Farmer: oh, I know, I've seen you do it, I've seen you do it, you're, but I just sort of walk up there and just kind of look at it and just kind of, you know.

Richard James: Yeah, you're a field player and

Todd Farmer: Yeah, so you need to put that Big Cedar Lodge on your list.

Richard James: Okay,

Todd Farmer: So there's Paines Valley, Ozark National, and Buffalo Ridge. Those three courses are there.[00:33:00]

MPS: Yep.

Todd Farmer: blown away by how nice they were. Nicest fairways I've ever played on,

Richard James: That's quite the statement. Okay.

MPS: Yeah, that is

Richard James: like,

Todd Farmer: up in the mountains. They, they, the guy that owns Bass Pro Shops is from that area. And so they built all these waterfalls and canyons. It's just, it's, it's, do not go the last week of July.

Richard James: July,

Todd Farmer: Do not go the last week of July. But it's fantastic. So,

Richard James: good. Well, listen, I appreciate you being

Todd Farmer: hey, no problem. Any time.

Richard James: Thank you, my friend.

Todd Farmer: How's Maria doing?

Is Maria doing okay?

Richard James: yes, she is. Thank you so much. She's she's healing. She's let me, let me kill this recording. We'll see.