Intro/Outro:

Welcome to the Construction

Intro/Outro:

Disruption podcast,

Intro/Outro:

where we uncover the future of

Intro/Outro:

design, building, and remodeling.

Todd Miller:

I'm Todd Miller of Isaiah

Todd Miller:

Industries, manufacturer of

Todd Miller:

specialty metal roofing and other

Todd Miller:

building materials. Today, my

Todd Miller:

co-host is Seth

Todd Miller:

Heckaman. How are you today, Seth?

Seth Heckaman:

Doing well. How are you?

Todd Miller:

I'm doing well also.

Todd Miller:

So I know you and I have

Todd Miller:

talked a little bit about a topic

Todd Miller:

that I think we're going to be

Todd Miller:

hearing more and more about

Todd Miller:

in everything, not just

Todd Miller:

construction, but in the

Todd Miller:

entire world.

Todd Miller:

And you haven't dug into it a

Todd Miller:

whole lot yet.

Todd Miller:

But that is the

Todd Miller:

topic of A.I.

Todd Miller:

and A.I.

Todd Miller:

generated text

Todd Miller:

that everyone's doing with ChatGPT

Todd Miller:

and Google Bard and a number of

Todd Miller:

others. So

Todd Miller:

to me, that's something that's

Todd Miller:

incredibly disruptive.

Todd Miller:

So seems like an important thing to

Todd Miller:

talk about here on the show,

Todd Miller:

although we do have a guest also who

Todd Miller:

is not talking about A.I..

Todd Miller:

But I was sitting in a meeting

Todd Miller:

this week and

Todd Miller:

folks were brainstorming.

Todd Miller:

And I know as I say this,

Todd Miller:

I'm probably driving a stake

Todd Miller:

through Ethan's heart.

Todd Miller:

Ethan's one of our behind the scenes

Todd Miller:

folks here. And he also

Todd Miller:

does a lot of writing

Todd Miller:

and an incredible writer.

Todd Miller:

But as I said in this meeting this

Todd Miller:

week, we were trying to come up with

Todd Miller:

some marketing ideas.

Todd Miller:

It was a church-related thing.

Todd Miller:

I was there, so a guy just started

Todd Miller:

plugging stuff in, come up with

Todd Miller:

marketing slogans on this and this,

Todd Miller:

and he was using ChatGPT.

Todd Miller:

I used Google Bard more

Todd Miller:

than I have ChatGPT.

Todd Miller:

But yeah, this thing was coming up

Todd Miller:

with really some good marketing

Todd Miller:

slogans. And you know, one of the

Todd Miller:

things I got to thinking about as I

Todd Miller:

listened to that was

Todd Miller:

probably an up-and-coming career is

Todd Miller:

going to be A.I.

Todd Miller:

editor. So people who are good at

Todd Miller:

writing, who simply can go

Todd Miller:

in and edit A.I.

Todd Miller:

generated things.

Todd Miller:

But

Todd Miller:

you know, the other thing I'm

Todd Miller:

hearing a lot about is A.I.

Todd Miller:

generated video

Todd Miller:

and the fact that you'll just be

Todd Miller:

able to plug in and, you know, pop

Todd Miller:

up a video that's been generated

Todd Miller:

on a particular topic and,

Todd Miller:

you know, that's going to have a

Todd Miller:

huge impact on marketing

Todd Miller:

and all the world

Todd Miller:

that we live in so much helping

Todd Miller:

contractors generate leads

Todd Miller:

and things like that.

Todd Miller:

So this morning before we started

Todd Miller:

recording,

Todd Miller:

some of our audience realizes

Todd Miller:

that a lot of times we'll start

Todd Miller:

episodes with a dad joke

Todd Miller:

or something that really is a

Todd Miller:

groaner.

Todd Miller:

So I asked ChatGPT,

Todd Miller:

I said, Write me a

Todd Miller:

dad joke about something

Todd Miller:

new.

Todd Miller:

That's all I said.

Todd Miller:

In this process, I discovered

Todd Miller:

that while ChatGPT may

Todd Miller:

be good at some things

Todd Miller:

and excuse me, this is actually

Todd Miller:

Google Bard, it is

Todd Miller:

really bad at writing jokes.

Todd Miller:

So let me tell you that if joke

Todd Miller:

that Google Bard gave

Todd Miller:

up with.

Todd Miller:

It's asked, What do

Todd Miller:

you call a newt, N-E-W-T,

Todd Miller:

which I guess it pulled because

Todd Miller:

I asked it to write a joke about

Todd Miller:

something new.

Todd Miller:

What do you call a newt

Todd Miller:

that just got a promotion?

Todd Miller:

The answer is a newt

Todd Miller:

manager.

Todd Miller:

I really had to work to even figure

Todd Miller:

out what the joke was, but.

Seth Heckaman:

That's a worse dad joke than you

Seth Heckaman:

typically come up with.

Seth Heckaman:

So yes, it's.

Todd Miller:

Yeah.

Seth Heckaman:

It's got a ways to go.

Todd Miller:

So the Bard is

Todd Miller:

not particularly good at jokes,

Todd Miller:

apparently. But anyway,

Todd Miller:

I think there's a lot of useful

Todd Miller:

stuff there. People talk about being

Todd Miller:

scared of it and stuff and

Todd Miller:

I guess I can relate to that.

Todd Miller:

I am concerned about how it impacts

Todd Miller:

job market, but it seems

Todd Miller:

like any time you have technology

Todd Miller:

come along that feels

Todd Miller:

like it's going to take jobs,

Todd Miller:

it actually also creates jobs

Todd Miller:

of some sort.

Todd Miller:

And so I think, we'll

Todd Miller:

see a little bit of both happen with

Todd Miller:

this. So anyway,

Todd Miller:

are you ready to go ahead and get it

Todd Miller:

rolling and quit listening to me

Todd Miller:

babble now Seth?

Seth Heckaman:

That's okay, sounds great. Here we go.

Todd Miller:

Okay.

Todd Miller:

Well, today's guest I'm very excited

Todd Miller:

about. Today's guest is Gavin Coyle.

Todd Miller:

Gavin is CEO of Coyle

Todd Miller:

Group, based in County Dublin,

Todd Miller:

Ireland.

Todd Miller:

Coyle Group provides safety

Todd Miller:

consulting services to contractors

Todd Miller:

across the globe.

Todd Miller:

And Gavin himself is known

Todd Miller:

as the Safety CEO.

Todd Miller:

Gavin, welcome to Construction

Todd Miller:

Disruption. It's a real pleasure to

Todd Miller:

have you here today.

Gavin Coyle:

Hey Todd, delighted to be here.

Gavin Coyle:

Thanks very much.

Gavin Coyle:

And looking forward to having a

Gavin Coyle:

chat.

Todd Miller:

Well, I know it'll be a great

Todd Miller:

discussion. So

Todd Miller:

in looking at Coyle Group, I

Todd Miller:

know that you guys provide

Todd Miller:

consulting and safety

Todd Miller:

management consulting,

Todd Miller:

but you also do some providing

Todd Miller:

safety managers under contract

Todd Miller:

to go out and spend time

Todd Miller:

in the field with your clients, as I

Todd Miller:

understand it.

Todd Miller:

Can you just kind of give us an

Todd Miller:

overview of what your company

Todd Miller:

does and you know who your typical

Todd Miller:

clients are, as far as size

Todd Miller:

or maybe certain

Todd Miller:

industries in construction that

Todd Miller:

there are genres of construction

Todd Miller:

they work with?

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, thanks very much.

Gavin Coyle:

And so

Gavin Coyle:

we kind of created a niche for

Gavin Coyle:

ourselves in the energy sector

Gavin Coyle:

and power generation and utilities

Gavin Coyle:

and a large

Gavin Coyle:

proportion, if not all of our

Gavin Coyle:

clients operate in those areas.

Gavin Coyle:

And I suppose

Gavin Coyle:

it was a strategic vision

Gavin Coyle:

for myself in terms of

Gavin Coyle:

wanting to work with

Gavin Coyle:

premium-type clients

Gavin Coyle:

in a highly regulated area

Gavin Coyle:

and to have assets to protect.

Gavin Coyle:

And so what we

Gavin Coyle:

found was there was a gap

Gavin Coyle:

whereby these particular

Gavin Coyle:

companies were

Gavin Coyle:

either having maintenance schedules

Gavin Coyle:

in terms of outages and shutdowns

Gavin Coyle:

and overhauls, or they

Gavin Coyle:

were building new assets.

Gavin Coyle:

And so they wouldn't have

Gavin Coyle:

the same level of capacity of

Gavin Coyle:

health and safety within the

Gavin Coyle:

overall organization on a continuous

Gavin Coyle:

basis to deal with the level of

Gavin Coyle:

the amount of projects that they

Gavin Coyle:

were dealing with.

Gavin Coyle:

So we tapped into that market very

Gavin Coyle:

early in terms of providing

Gavin Coyle:

an end source solution where they

Gavin Coyle:

could come to us and we would give

Gavin Coyle:

them a safety person who had

Gavin Coyle:

20 plus years experience

Gavin Coyle:

in that particular industry

Gavin Coyle:

that could manage the overall health

Gavin Coyle:

and safety for that project, to

Gavin Coyle:

bring it through from the start

Gavin Coyle:

right through to the end.

Gavin Coyle:

And so over

Gavin Coyle:

the years, we've become very

Gavin Coyle:

established with a reputation that

Gavin Coyle:

we don't just provide

Gavin Coyle:

the people, we also provide a

Gavin Coyle:

managed service behind that.

Gavin Coyle:

So I would work with the leaders

Gavin Coyle:

and with the clients

Gavin Coyle:

and their team on strategy.

Gavin Coyle:

And you know what it

Gavin Coyle:

is that we can get

Gavin Coyle:

out of this project that we could

Gavin Coyle:

use as a future

Gavin Coyle:

experience for future projects

Gavin Coyle:

like lessons learned.

Gavin Coyle:

And how do we implement

Gavin Coyle:

that and how do we change systems

Gavin Coyle:

and change cultures in order to

Gavin Coyle:

deal with and

Gavin Coyle:

protecting against

Gavin Coyle:

scenarios and certain risks

Gavin Coyle:

are becoming more consistent

Gavin Coyle:

within those type of environment.

Gavin Coyle:

So it's been very challenging but

Gavin Coyle:

very rewarding.

Gavin Coyle:

And the type of people that we deal

Gavin Coyle:

with on a daily basis are

Gavin Coyle:

extremely knowledgeable and

Gavin Coyle:

technical in their own areas and in

Gavin Coyle:

their own right.

Gavin Coyle:

And I kind of get a great buzz

Gavin Coyle:

from working with people like that

Gavin Coyle:

because you could just feed off

Gavin Coyle:

their enthusiasm and their

Gavin Coyle:

motivation and their, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

their want to get up and go

Gavin Coyle:

and deliver a project, not

Gavin Coyle:

just a safe project, but a quality

Gavin Coyle:

project.

Gavin Coyle:

And, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

we are where we are today, which,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, major multinational

Gavin Coyle:

clients across the world building

Gavin Coyle:

wind farms and power stations.

Gavin Coyle:

And it's exciting and

Gavin Coyle:

if not, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

stressful at times.

Todd Miller:

Oh, absolutely.

Todd Miller:

I can imagine, and

Todd Miller:

certainly I assume those are

Todd Miller:

projects that are on tight

Todd Miller:

timetables a lot of times also.

Todd Miller:

And, you know, sometimes tight

Todd Miller:

timetables can accidentally

Todd Miller:

become the enemy of safety

Todd Miller:

also, I suppose.

Todd Miller:

But so,

Todd Miller:

I'm kind of curious,

Todd Miller:

what interested you

Todd Miller:

in this line of work and what drove

Todd Miller:

your passion for safety?

Todd Miller:

I know I heard you tell a little bit

Todd Miller:

of that story on a podcast

Todd Miller:

you were on recently with our mutual

Todd Miller:

friend Jim Johnson,

Todd Miller:

but we'd love to have you share it

Todd Miller:

here on some of that here on this

Todd Miller:

show as well.

Gavin Coyle:

And yes, so like

Gavin Coyle:

I live in Ireland, small, obviously,

Gavin Coyle:

country and surrounded

Gavin Coyle:

by water.

Gavin Coyle:

And at

Gavin Coyle:

one stage, maybe 20 odd

Gavin Coyle:

years ago, and

Gavin Coyle:

we became a magnet

Gavin Coyle:

for American clients

Gavin Coyle:

who wanted to probably

Gavin Coyle:

step a foot into Europe.

Gavin Coyle:

And we were the first country that

Gavin Coyle:

probably has intensive

Gavin Coyle:

land base, if you like.

Gavin Coyle:

And we had the likes of

Gavin Coyle:

Warner-Lambert, which is now

Gavin Coyle:

Pfizer's.

Gavin Coyle:

We didn't have Hewlett-Packard

Gavin Coyle:

and Compaq,

Gavin Coyle:

All the big names

Gavin Coyle:

that were trying to establish a

Gavin Coyle:

foothold in the European markets

Gavin Coyle:

were coming into our and

Gavin Coyle:

building hyperscale projects.

Gavin Coyle:

And I just come out of school.

Gavin Coyle:

And one of the main requirements

Gavin Coyle:

on these projects was a full time

Gavin Coyle:

health and safety officer, which

Gavin Coyle:

was never really a thing

Gavin Coyle:

in Ireland.

Gavin Coyle:

And a lot of people scratching their

Gavin Coyle:

heads going, What do you mean, a

Gavin Coyle:

full time health and safety officer?

Gavin Coyle:

What does that person do and

Gavin Coyle:

what kind of qualifications do these

Gavin Coyle:

people have? So

Gavin Coyle:

and I was told

Gavin Coyle:

to go to meeting the health and

Gavin Coyle:

safety meeting and sort of really

Gavin Coyle:

liked, you know, the whole concept

Gavin Coyle:

of, well, we're not just here to

Gavin Coyle:

work, we're also here to get to work

Gavin Coyle:

safely, and

Gavin Coyle:

we want everybody going home

Gavin Coyle:

to their families.

Gavin Coyle:

And I totally embraced

Gavin Coyle:

that whole logic.

Gavin Coyle:

And there was a whole sort of

Gavin Coyle:

systematic approach the

Gavin Coyle:

American guys were bringing with

Gavin Coyle:

them that they had built in their

Gavin Coyle:

own models within the States.

Gavin Coyle:

And so it was a very good learning

Gavin Coyle:

curve for me to sort of understand

Gavin Coyle:

all of these systems and understand

Gavin Coyle:

the logics that they put together

Gavin Coyle:

in order to make a safe project.

Gavin Coyle:

And, you know, you're talking to a

Gavin Coyle:

couple of thousand people maybe

Gavin Coyle:

on the project at any one time, up

Gavin Coyle:

to 10,000 people, in some cases,

Gavin Coyle:

construction workers. So you're not

Gavin Coyle:

talking small scale stuff,

Gavin Coyle:

but in around the same time or the

Gavin Coyle:

same time periods.

Gavin Coyle:

And as

Gavin Coyle:

I grew within the

Gavin Coyle:

contracting business that I was

Gavin Coyle:

working for, and

Gavin Coyle:

I started looking after more and

Gavin Coyle:

more of their projects, not just

Gavin Coyle:

the major hyperscale stuff, but

Gavin Coyle:

it was a project in talking about

Gavin Coyle:

Four Seasons hotel projects, and

Gavin Coyle:

I would have been looking after that

Gavin Coyle:

as well. So I was kind of stretched

Gavin Coyle:

between going around to multiple

Gavin Coyle:

different projects and

Gavin Coyle:

I was on the Four Seasons project

Gavin Coyle:

one morning, one was banging on the

Gavin Coyle:

door and it was basically

Gavin Coyle:

someone at site sharing that there

Gavin Coyle:

was a man down.

Gavin Coyle:

And that's when

Gavin Coyle:

we went out to have a look.

Gavin Coyle:

It was a young

Gavin Coyle:

guy, 17 years of age,

Gavin Coyle:

and had fallen into a hole head

Gavin Coyle:

first and he was fighting for his

Gavin Coyle:

life in a in a hole.

Gavin Coyle:

So we managed

Gavin Coyle:

to get him out and I went

Gavin Coyle:

to the ambulance with him and

Gavin Coyle:

within 24 hours he was

Gavin Coyle:

pronounced dead due to

Gavin Coyle:

his head injuries.

Gavin Coyle:

And so it was it was a very

Gavin Coyle:

sort of wake up

Gavin Coyle:

traumatic time for myself,

Gavin Coyle:

obviously, for the family was much

Gavin Coyle:

worse. But to see a

Gavin Coyle:

guy fighting for his life in

Gavin Coyle:

the hole and then in the

Gavin Coyle:

in the ambulance and then in the

Gavin Coyle:

end and it's

Gavin Coyle:

it's something that would stay with

Gavin Coyle:

me for the rest of my life.

Gavin Coyle:

My younger brother

Gavin Coyle:

would in a short period of time

Gavin Coyle:

after that fatality, had a

Gavin Coyle:

tragedy of his own where himself

Gavin Coyle:

and two of his friends drowned

Gavin Coyle:

off the coast of Ireland, where they

Gavin Coyle:

were just waist high, throwing balls

Gavin Coyle:

at each other and

Gavin Coyle:

a freak wave came in and the

Gavin Coyle:

undercurrent stuck them at sea.

Gavin Coyle:

So I suppose within

Gavin Coyle:

a 24 month period,

Gavin Coyle:

I had two massive events,

Gavin Coyle:

traumatic events in my life.

Gavin Coyle:

I was kind of like, Okay.

Gavin Coyle:

Is health and safety really for me?

Todd Miller:

Wow.

Gavin Coyle:

And if it is like

Gavin Coyle:

you're going to get, you're going to

Gavin Coyle:

have to be, have the tools

Gavin Coyle:

and have the mindset and the

Gavin Coyle:

sort of the

Gavin Coyle:

push to to continue

Gavin Coyle:

on in this. Otherwise, it

Gavin Coyle:

would just break me because I was

Gavin Coyle:

very young and and

Gavin Coyle:

there was no such thing as

Gavin Coyle:

counseling or anything at that time.

Gavin Coyle:

And so no one was talking about,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, the aftershock of

Gavin Coyle:

of events.

Gavin Coyle:

But it definitely did shape my

Gavin Coyle:

views and my empathy towards people.

Gavin Coyle:

You know, I talk to people

Gavin Coyle:

and on the basis of,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, I could be that person

Gavin Coyle:

myself.

Gavin Coyle:

You know, what we want from the from

Gavin Coyle:

the conversation in terms of,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, not talking down to

Gavin Coyle:

people, talk to them at

Gavin Coyle:

their own level, bring them with

Gavin Coyle:

you, learn from them,

Gavin Coyle:

give them your experience, share,

Gavin Coyle:

collaborate together and

Gavin Coyle:

walk in a way that

Gavin Coyle:

you treat people with respect and

Gavin Coyle:

you expect that respect come back to

Gavin Coyle:

you. And that has been

Gavin Coyle:

stuck with me for years

Gavin Coyle:

where it's still worked on projects

Gavin Coyle:

now. People would come

Gavin Coyle:

over shaking hands. I remember when

Gavin Coyle:

you when you were on this particular

Gavin Coyle:

project. I don't be on the sites as

Gavin Coyle:

much of the projects as much.

Gavin Coyle:

And I got great buzz

Gavin Coyle:

from the whole collaboration

Gavin Coyle:

to certainly some characters

Gavin Coyle:

in the construction and

Gavin Coyle:

especially the auction industry

Gavin Coyle:

anyway, and

Gavin Coyle:

I hope it continues to be so.

Gavin Coyle:

But in terms of our health and

Gavin Coyle:

safety that, you know, it's moved

Gavin Coyle:

on quite a lot since I started

Gavin Coyle:

2017

Gavin Coyle:

when I started on the path for

Gavin Coyle:

health and safety.

Todd Miller:

Well, that's really something going

Todd Miller:

through those, you know, couple of

Todd Miller:

tragedies, one of them extremely

Todd Miller:

personal. And yet, you know,

Todd Miller:

out of that, it drove

Todd Miller:

you to a life's path.

Todd Miller:

And so I'm

Todd Miller:

kind of curious. I know the Coyle

Todd Miller:

group, you know, works with

Todd Miller:

contractors across the globe.

Todd Miller:

It seems like safety regulations

Todd Miller:

to some degree vary geographically,

Todd Miller:

but by the same token, safety

Todd Miller:

is safety. So how does

Todd Miller:

that impact your business?

Todd Miller:

How do you

Todd Miller:

how do you adjust to the fact that,

Todd Miller:

you know, different areas probably

Todd Miller:

have different regulations, but yet

Todd Miller:

again, safety is safety?

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, it's

Gavin Coyle:

a great question.

Gavin Coyle:

And like once you have

Gavin Coyle:

a system that is

Gavin Coyle:

organic to your business

Gavin Coyle:

and you can put your finger

Gavin Coyle:

on any part of that system and it

Gavin Coyle:

is live and it is actionable

Gavin Coyle:

and it is, you know

Gavin Coyle:

and something that you can stand

Gavin Coyle:

over.

Gavin Coyle:

That's a real system.

Gavin Coyle:

Unfortunately, we've seen in the

Gavin Coyle:

past where people have brought

Gavin Coyle:

in maybe outside consultants

Gavin Coyle:

or management consultants and said,

Gavin Coyle:

Look, you know, build me a system

Gavin Coyle:

because a company is massive

Gavin Coyle:

growth and they tend to

Gavin Coyle:

just pick sort of a generic model

Gavin Coyle:

system and try and

Gavin Coyle:

sort of pinhole that company into

Gavin Coyle:

that particular system.

Gavin Coyle:

And once you don't

Gavin Coyle:

have any sort of

Gavin Coyle:

input for sort of,

Gavin Coyle:

how would you say? Once you don't

Gavin Coyle:

have your own footprint on that

Gavin Coyle:

system, you can't really stand over

Gavin Coyle:

it. And then, you know, when

Gavin Coyle:

something goes wrong,

Gavin Coyle:

everybody's going, How come the

Gavin Coyle:

system didn't pick this up and

Gavin Coyle:

whatever else?

Gavin Coyle:

System didn't pick it up because

Gavin Coyle:

people didn't embrace the system

Gavin Coyle:

from the start and build the system

Gavin Coyle:

from the ground up.

Gavin Coyle:

So we're always conscious to say

Gavin Coyle:

to people, you know, don't jump

Gavin Coyle:

into creating a management system

Gavin Coyle:

that is kind of an off-the-shelf

Gavin Coyle:

approach.

Gavin Coyle:

When you decide that you want to

Gavin Coyle:

build the system, you think

Gavin Coyle:

about this in the two-year type

Gavin Coyle:

project where you're just going to

Gavin Coyle:

feed in information into exactly

Gavin Coyle:

how you operate as a business,

Gavin Coyle:

because we all have our own nuances

Gavin Coyle:

as regards how we deliver

Gavin Coyle:

at projects, not just in the safety

Gavin Coyle:

perspective for quality and

Gavin Coyle:

operations and people.

Gavin Coyle:

And it's all those little nuances

Gavin Coyle:

that actually make up your policies

Gavin Coyle:

and your actions with how

Gavin Coyle:

you're going to manage that system.

Gavin Coyle:

And we're very, very strong about

Gavin Coyle:

saying to people, you

Gavin Coyle:

know, Make it about you so that if

Gavin Coyle:

anybody walks into that business,

Gavin Coyle:

that all of your team can put

Gavin Coyle:

their finger on any piece of that

Gavin Coyle:

system and say, That's us.

Gavin Coyle:

That's what we stand for.

Gavin Coyle:

That's how we deliver.

Gavin Coyle:

That's us. It may change because

Gavin Coyle:

regulations might change.

Gavin Coyle:

As you say, you might go into a

Gavin Coyle:

different country.

Gavin Coyle:

And but ultimately, there's a

Gavin Coyle:

standard there that everybody is

Gavin Coyle:

accustomed to, and you shouldn't

Gavin Coyle:

change that for anybody, other than

Gavin Coyle:

the fact that you might have

Gavin Coyle:

local regulations where a form

Gavin Coyle:

might be a different definition,

Gavin Coyle:

or you might have to report

Gavin Coyle:

it in a different way.

Gavin Coyle:

But those are obstacles that can be

Gavin Coyle:

overcome from a local expertise

Gavin Coyle:

type of scenario where you're

Gavin Coyle:

putting in somebody just say, Look,

Gavin Coyle:

can you navigate us here?

Gavin Coyle:

So we've, for example, done

Gavin Coyle:

a recent project for

Gavin Coyle:

offshore wind turbines

Gavin Coyle:

to be built.

Gavin Coyle:

And the question was

Gavin Coyle:

which which regulations are we going

Gavin Coyle:

to follow here, guys?

Gavin Coyle:

And it was all major

Gavin Coyle:

league of the patterns involved, you

Gavin Coyle:

know, lots of money being spent

Gavin Coyle:

by the clients.

Gavin Coyle:

And we were kind of like it's kind

Gavin Coyle:

of not really relevant in terms of

Gavin Coyle:

once you have the system

Gavin Coyle:

that is, you know, credit

Gavin Coyle:

is internationally approved,

Gavin Coyle:

the likes of an ISO system or an

Gavin Coyle:

OSHA system.

Gavin Coyle:

That was traveled right across

Gavin Coyle:

the world, and then you just create

Gavin Coyle:

that nuance. So what we've done was

Gavin Coyle:

we created webinar

Gavin Coyle:

videos for all of their management

Gavin Coyle:

team to say, Here's the legislation,

Gavin Coyle:

you used it before, here's the other

Gavin Coyle:

legislation that's actually meeting

Gavin Coyle:

you on the notes

Gavin Coyle:

for this particular project.

Gavin Coyle:

Here's the higher standards that we

Gavin Coyle:

believe you should follow that is

Gavin Coyle:

above those regulations.

Gavin Coyle:

And so if something does fall

Gavin Coyle:

down to the holes, we can always

Gavin Coyle:

say, yet we took the legislation

Gavin Coyle:

as a minimum standards,

Gavin Coyle:

but this is our standards.

Todd Miller:

I love that.

Todd Miller:

So it sounds like a lot of

Todd Miller:

your clients are

Todd Miller:

in themselves international

Todd Miller:

companies, so they may be doing

Todd Miller:

projects in different countries

Todd Miller:

and so forth. So, you know, you're

Todd Miller:

able to help them set their

Todd Miller:

standards and then also make sure

Todd Miller:

that they are meeting anything

Todd Miller:

local that might be special as well.

Todd Miller:

And I kind of understand that,

Todd Miller:

correct?

Gavin Coyle:

Yes.

Todd Miller:

Okay.

Gavin Coyle:

Yes, 100%.

Gavin Coyle:

And as I said, you can bring

Gavin Coyle:

in local knowledge wherever you need

Gavin Coyle:

it. And it's not, it shouldn't.

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, it's not a drama

Gavin Coyle:

bush like anybody that's

Gavin Coyle:

listened to the podcast.

Gavin Coyle:

If you don't have a

Gavin Coyle:

proper planning schedule

Gavin Coyle:

in place before you start the

Gavin Coyle:

project. And we've all been there

Gavin Coyle:

where we started the project and

Gavin Coyle:

we're two months in and

Gavin Coyle:

next thing there's fighting going on

Gavin Coyle:

because guys are jockeying for

Gavin Coyle:

position or, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

there's a, a sort of a conflict

Gavin Coyle:

starting to arise between

Gavin Coyle:

people trying to

Gavin Coyle:

do the right thing, but popping,

Gavin Coyle:

coming up with barriers.

Gavin Coyle:

And so most of that stems from

Gavin Coyle:

the preplan process, where people

Gavin Coyle:

just didn't get together in a

Gavin Coyle:

workshop style and

Gavin Coyle:

mantra and said, Okay.

Gavin Coyle:

What do we want to get out of this

Gavin Coyle:

project as a team, as contractors,

Gavin Coyle:

as as individuals?

Gavin Coyle:

And sort of create those goals

Gavin Coyle:

and those aspirations and say,

Gavin Coyle:

That's the strategic vision for this

Gavin Coyle:

project.

Gavin Coyle:

Are we all agreed we're going to

Gavin Coyle:

follow that?

Gavin Coyle:

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen

Gavin Coyle:

quite often as you think.

Gavin Coyle:

And we still see it today where,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, it's too late

Gavin Coyle:

by the time you're in the project

Gavin Coyle:

because people are too focused on

Gavin Coyle:

trying to deliver the projects and

Gavin Coyle:

they're in the projects, you can't

Gavin Coyle:

put on the handbrake at that stage

Gavin Coyle:

and you've just got to let it go and

Gavin Coyle:

try and catch up.

Seth Heckaman:

You surprised me earlier,

Seth Heckaman:

Gavin, when you said that those

Seth Heckaman:

American companies coming into

Seth Heckaman:

Ireland were the ones that brought

Seth Heckaman:

this idea of the for

Seth Heckaman:

health, for a full-time health and

Seth Heckaman:

safety officer, which

Seth Heckaman:

may not be what most would guess

Seth Heckaman:

from those cutthroat capitalist

Seth Heckaman:

Americans, you know, being the

Seth Heckaman:

the ones that originated that.

Seth Heckaman:

So curious, making

Seth Heckaman:

sure I heard that right.

Seth Heckaman:

But then also getting your

Seth Heckaman:

perspective on, you know, what

Seth Heckaman:

countries are sort of leading the

Seth Heckaman:

way in some of these guidelines and

Seth Heckaman:

are there some countries that might

Seth Heckaman:

be lagging a little bit in that

Seth Heckaman:

regard?

Gavin Coyle:

I don't know if that could back

Gavin Coyle:

up the whole cutthroat capitalist

Gavin Coyle:

comment, because

Gavin Coyle:

that might get me in trouble.

Gavin Coyle:

But I get no, I know what you mean.

Gavin Coyle:

And I look

Gavin Coyle:

at there's Canada

Gavin Coyle:

has got a great reputation in

Gavin Coyle:

terms of health and safety.

Gavin Coyle:

And people might say that they're

Gavin Coyle:

overboard.

Gavin Coyle:

It's not a nanny state.

Gavin Coyle:

That's a different conversation for

Gavin Coyle:

different topics and social,

Gavin Coyle:

political and more so than safety.

Gavin Coyle:

And Australia

Gavin Coyle:

has a good strong sense,

Gavin Coyle:

and I like the Swedish model

Gavin Coyle:

personally myself in terms of health

Gavin Coyle:

and safety, because I remember

Gavin Coyle:

going into to a wind project

Gavin Coyle:

and it

Gavin Coyle:

was a test Islands.

Gavin Coyle:

The whole island was actually just a

Gavin Coyle:

test island for wind turbines

Gavin Coyle:

and reading the safety

Gavin Coyle:

framework documents for Sweden.

Gavin Coyle:

And it was like, it was like a

Gavin Coyle:

couple of pages wasn't corporate

Gavin Coyle:

pages, but it was like a person's

Gavin Coyle:

or a legal framework

Gavin Coyle:

so small I couldn't get over.

Gavin Coyle:

I was like, Wow.

Gavin Coyle:

Like, that's how it makes sense

Gavin Coyle:

in terms of like, why

Gavin Coyle:

would you just fill a whole book

Gavin Coyle:

of legal jargon

Gavin Coyle:

and show it to people and say, here,

Gavin Coyle:

and, you know, we need you to follow

Gavin Coyle:

the legislation like it's

Gavin Coyle:

a minefield?

Gavin Coyle:

You know, there's so many different

Gavin Coyle:

areas that you can get on.

Gavin Coyle:

And they just brought it down

Gavin Coyle:

a small bit on the flip side

Gavin Coyle:

of things, their social welfare

Gavin Coyle:

and their employee welfare

Gavin Coyle:

programs are kind of like

Gavin Coyle:

a disadvantage to

Gavin Coyle:

the cartoonists because

Gavin Coyle:

there's restrictions on hours,

Gavin Coyle:

sticks and sometimes holiday

Gavin Coyle:

periods and pensions.

Gavin Coyle:

And what you have to pay these

Gavin Coyle:

people and stuff like that.

Gavin Coyle:

And so that has a sort of a

Gavin Coyle:

negative

Gavin Coyle:

impact on progression

Gavin Coyle:

because I see how

Gavin Coyle:

things can get done

Gavin Coyle:

and it's a pity that

Gavin Coyle:

we don't have more of a

Gavin Coyle:

freestyle open-market

Gavin Coyle:

approach to if people

Gavin Coyle:

can do the job on their feet

Gavin Coyle:

from what they're doing.

Gavin Coyle:

And you can control the risk and

Gavin Coyle:

you can demonstrate that, but then

Gavin Coyle:

leave them alone. Let them get on

Gavin Coyle:

with the job.

Gavin Coyle:

And this creates

Gavin Coyle:

people and companies that are

Gavin Coyle:

managed in such a way that

Gavin Coyle:

their reputation travels with them.

Gavin Coyle:

And that's where

Gavin Coyle:

we, for myself, had

Gavin Coyle:

set up

Gavin Coyle:

gavin-coyle.com and wrote the

Gavin Coyle:

book on workplace safety

Gavin Coyle:

and budgets because we

Gavin Coyle:

felt and

Gavin Coyle:

there was a whole business of safety

Gavin Coyle:

and model that was missing from

Gavin Coyle:

the boardrooms.

Gavin Coyle:

And in terms of

Gavin Coyle:

making safety a profit center

Gavin Coyle:

for your business as opposed

Gavin Coyle:

to a regulatory compliance

Gavin Coyle:

center, which is what people

Gavin Coyle:

think about today.

Gavin Coyle:

So what we're talking about is

Gavin Coyle:

how can you look at your business

Gavin Coyle:

from a safety perspective

Gavin Coyle:

and make it more efficient from a

Gavin Coyle:

safety perspective, which obviously

Gavin Coyle:

raised safety standards,

Gavin Coyle:

but also creates a situation where

Gavin Coyle:

you stop spending money on certain

Gavin Coyle:

things that have nothing to do

Gavin Coyle:

with the efficiency of your business

Gavin Coyle:

and with the bottom line.

Gavin Coyle:

And so how do we talk and

Gavin Coyle:

how do we get a better return

Gavin Coyle:

on investment for each pound you

Gavin Coyle:

spend on safety?

Gavin Coyle:

And what does that look like?

Gavin Coyle:

And so you create a whole profit

Gavin Coyle:

center mindset from

Gavin Coyle:

the boardroom right down to the

Gavin Coyle:

grassroots, and then

Gavin Coyle:

you can repurpose that that dollar

Gavin Coyle:

value safe and back into

Gavin Coyle:

better staff because you pay them

Gavin Coyle:

better wages, better equipment

Gavin Coyle:

because you couldn't buy that

Gavin Coyle:

equipment previously.

Gavin Coyle:

So now it's repurposed and it's

Gavin Coyle:

safer equipment and it's more

Gavin Coyle:

innovative and it's more creative

Gavin Coyle:

and it's more it's producing more

Gavin Coyle:

and better programs

Gavin Coyle:

for the business and more bonuses

Gavin Coyle:

for the people that are delivering

Gavin Coyle:

on all the aspects of

Gavin Coyle:

of a profit center

Gavin Coyle:

within your within your business.

Gavin Coyle:

And that this is a a major

Gavin Coyle:

talking point for me at the moment

Gavin Coyle:

because it's a taboo

Gavin Coyle:

subject to say, I want

Gavin Coyle:

you to cut your costs on safety.

Gavin Coyle:

And you know, nobody wants

Gavin Coyle:

to say that because something goes

Gavin Coyle:

wrong. The fingers point.

Gavin Coyle:

You're the man that says,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, we should all reduce

Gavin Coyle:

the cost and safety.

Gavin Coyle:

I'm saying that.

Gavin Coyle:

And in an open way

Gavin Coyle:

over my 20 years experience, people

Gavin Coyle:

are spending a humongous amount of

Gavin Coyle:

money on on safety in different

Gavin Coyle:

areas that have absolutely no

Gavin Coyle:

drop down in terms of the

Gavin Coyle:

sustainability of the business.

Gavin Coyle:

And I, I

Gavin Coyle:

have seen situations

Gavin Coyle:

like the smaller contractors listen

Gavin Coyle:

to the podcast where if you can

Gavin Coyle:

raise the profile of your business

Gavin Coyle:

from a safety perspective and have

Gavin Coyle:

a reputation for a very safe

Gavin Coyle:

business, you will win more

Gavin Coyle:

work guaranteed.

Gavin Coyle:

It might take a while, might take a

Gavin Coyle:

year or two to sort of create

Gavin Coyle:

that sort of reputation.

Gavin Coyle:

But clients, in my experience

Gavin Coyle:

on weekdays with major clients,

Gavin Coyle:

will actually go for a small

Gavin Coyle:

contractor if they can raise

Gavin Coyle:

the bar on safety, ensure that they

Gavin Coyle:

have a sustainable model that's

Gavin Coyle:

on a plan for the future of health

Gavin Coyle:

and safety and all of the people

Gavin Coyle:

around their business buys into it

Gavin Coyle:

and that takes

Gavin Coyle:

time. But to

Gavin Coyle:

clients and to

Gavin Coyle:

my estates will pay

Gavin Coyle:

the extra bit of money if they

Gavin Coyle:

know they have a safe company

Gavin Coyle:

that also can deliver quality.

Todd Miller:

Yeah, I think that's really

Todd Miller:

interesting and it kind of goes down

Todd Miller:

a line of something I want to ask

Todd Miller:

you, Gavin, because, you know,

Todd Miller:

I hear you talking a lot.

Todd Miller:

We're talking about international

Todd Miller:

businesses and boardrooms,

Todd Miller:

and I'm thinking a lot of

Todd Miller:

contractors are much smaller than

Todd Miller:

that and don't have all of that.

Todd Miller:

But yet, you know, you're

Todd Miller:

giving them a framework of saying,

Todd Miller:

Hey, if you start everything

Todd Miller:

with safety in mind and

Todd Miller:

then make that a hallmark of

Todd Miller:

your company and actually be can

Todd Miller:

become a, you know, a great

Todd Miller:

marketing tool for you as well.

Todd Miller:

Let's talk a little bit about your

Todd Miller:

book, Workplace Safety on a Budget,

Todd Miller:

which I looked it up.

Todd Miller:

You can get it on Amazon, so

Todd Miller:

I haven't bought it yet, but I

Todd Miller:

encourage everybody to check it out.

Todd Miller:

But so is that book

Todd Miller:

applicable for anyone

Todd Miller:

with any size of a contracting

Todd Miller:

business?

Gavin Coyle:

It's 100%, Todd.

Gavin Coyle:

And one of the main drivers

Gavin Coyle:

for me writing the book was

Gavin Coyle:

I felt that I wasn't getting

Gavin Coyle:

access to the middle market

Gavin Coyle:

and to the small scale

Gavin Coyle:

markets within construction

Gavin Coyle:

and contracting in general.

Gavin Coyle:

And I felt sort of

Gavin Coyle:

an obligation, but because

Gavin Coyle:

of our business was with premium

Gavin Coyle:

clients. Other people are

Gavin Coyle:

premium level in terms of

Gavin Coyle:

cost base.

Gavin Coyle:

We couldn't give that advice.

Gavin Coyle:

We couldn't support small

Gavin Coyle:

to medium enterprises because

Gavin Coyle:

we had niched ourselves into this

Gavin Coyle:

premium market.

Gavin Coyle:

So it was something that was known

Gavin Coyle:

to me for a long time.

Gavin Coyle:

As it gets, you know, we're not I'm

Gavin Coyle:

not really giving back anything to

Gavin Coyle:

the guys that actually are

Gavin Coyle:

as good as anyone.

Gavin Coyle:

But they decided to go out on their

Gavin Coyle:

own and they might only be one man

Gavin Coyle:

in a van or they might be,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, somebody with 20

Gavin Coyle:

contractors. So how do I get

Gavin Coyle:

it? How do I make a difference

Gavin Coyle:

on that? So the website

Gavin Coyle:

that we have is

Gavin Coyle:

under construction for the last two

Gavin Coyle:

years. It's constantly putting in

Gavin Coyle:

free safety courses

Gavin Coyle:

and then just paid

Gavin Coyle:

certified courses that

Gavin Coyle:

I deliver and

Gavin Coyle:

that are like $29.99

Gavin Coyle:

per person.

Gavin Coyle:

Free toolkits,

Gavin Coyle:

as much free advice as we can give

Gavin Coyle:

people.

Gavin Coyle:

And the book is like $12

Gavin Coyle:

on Amazon.

Gavin Coyle:

So again, it's not; I'm not

Gavin Coyle:

going to be

Gavin Coyle:

going to Monaco any time soon.

Gavin Coyle:

It's safety

Gavin Coyle:

information should be shared and

Gavin Coyle:

should be out there for everybody.

Gavin Coyle:

It shouldn't be a guarded secret.

Gavin Coyle:

And the book covers every

Gavin Coyle:

part of every business,

Gavin Coyle:

regardless whether you're in

Gavin Coyle:

construction or not.

Gavin Coyle:

It can be any workplace, and

Gavin Coyle:

whether you're somebody that's

Gavin Coyle:

starting out in health and safety as

Gavin Coyle:

a graduation, you want to or

Gavin Coyle:

you're thinking about starting out

Gavin Coyle:

in safety, it's for you.

Gavin Coyle:

If you're a seasoned professional

Gavin Coyle:

and you want to understand how to

Gavin Coyle:

put a different model in place

Gavin Coyle:

to create more profit

Gavin Coyle:

for you to spend money on order

Gavin Coyle:

things and safety, it's for you.

Gavin Coyle:

If you're an employer and you just

Gavin Coyle:

want to navigate through health and

Gavin Coyle:

safety and understand what are the

Gavin Coyle:

hacks, if you like,

Gavin Coyle:

of reducing my cost and safety,

Gavin Coyle:

but still making a big impression

Gavin Coyle:

to win, to win over clients.

Gavin Coyle:

That's the purpose of the book and

Gavin Coyle:

that's what we termed the business

Gavin Coyle:

of safety.

Seth Heckaman:

Very interesting.

Seth Heckaman:

And I know you mentioned earlier

Seth Heckaman:

taking this 1 to 2 year kind of

Seth Heckaman:

perspective on starting to build

Seth Heckaman:

this culture in your business and

Seth Heckaman:

building systems.

Seth Heckaman:

But I'm curious, when you work with

Seth Heckaman:

a new client, what, are there

Seth Heckaman:

any, do

Seth Heckaman:

there seem to be any consistent

Seth Heckaman:

first steps or low-hanging

Seth Heckaman:

fruit that, you know, first

Seth Heckaman:

recommendations you find yourself

Seth Heckaman:

giving pretty regularly?

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, great question Seth,

Gavin Coyle:

and it's actually turning

Gavin Coyle:

into a program.

Gavin Coyle:

So we

Gavin Coyle:

were doing it naturally

Gavin Coyle:

ourselves without actually having

Gavin Coyle:

a specific model

Gavin Coyle:

program,

Gavin Coyle:

but we

Gavin Coyle:

were breaking down at the moment.

Gavin Coyle:

We're actually that's going to go

Gavin Coyle:

live in the next couple of months as

Gavin Coyle:

a program.

Gavin Coyle:

We're just trying to figure out the

Gavin Coyle:

monetary value of that

Gavin Coyle:

for small to medium

Gavin Coyle:

companies. And then if there's large

Gavin Coyle:

companies to come in because we've

Gavin Coyle:

done it for the larger companies.

Gavin Coyle:

And I'll give you a classic

Gavin Coyle:

example where,

Gavin Coyle:

to give a simple

Gavin Coyle:

answer for your question is we would

Gavin Coyle:

do a gap analysis at discovery

Gavin Coyle:

stage process initially

Gavin Coyle:

to understand the logic of the

Gavin Coyle:

business and how the business

Gavin Coyle:

operates in the structure and

Gavin Coyle:

what's happened.

Gavin Coyle:

And in this specific case, it's like

Gavin Coyle:

a $50 million

Gavin Coyle:

turnover business, pretty strong

Gavin Coyle:

business and utilities.

Gavin Coyle:

But when we got into and started

Gavin Coyle:

speaking to the workers, which was

Gavin Coyle:

over a hundred workers, they were

Gavin Coyle:

all working in an

Gavin Coyle:

underground situations,

Gavin Coyle:

but they were actually employed as

Gavin Coyle:

overhead linesmen.

Gavin Coyle:

So this should have been up on a

Gavin Coyle:

poll that they were down in the

Gavin Coyle:

hole. And what

Gavin Coyle:

happened was they

Gavin Coyle:

had one big major client

Gavin Coyle:

contracts, the company

Gavin Coyle:

had.

Gavin Coyle:

And they told the guys, look,

Gavin Coyle:

big news. We've got loads of work

Gavin Coyle:

for the next 20 years where you're

Gavin Coyle:

going to have to go into the holes

Gavin Coyle:

and sort of do this kind of civils

Gavin Coyle:

type work.

Gavin Coyle:

And so all the guys did is because

Gavin Coyle:

obviously they see the families and

Gavin Coyle:

mortgages and the money was still

Gavin Coyle:

good.

Gavin Coyle:

But when I spoke to them, they were

Gavin Coyle:

like, we were never employed to do

Gavin Coyle:

this kind of.

Gavin Coyle:

You know, this is not us.

Gavin Coyle:

So we went back to the

Gavin Coyle:

contractor and we said, look,

Gavin Coyle:

we think there's a great opportunity

Gavin Coyle:

here, that there is

Gavin Coyle:

companies out there that

Gavin Coyle:

specifically of that task.

Gavin Coyle:

You've now got a load of data built

Gavin Coyle:

up in your business, how much time

Gavin Coyle:

it takes, what type of person you

Gavin Coyle:

need. It wasn't a competency-based

Gavin Coyle:

task, so they weren't

Gavin Coyle:

being slanting the rules

Gavin Coyle:

of safety in terms of putting

Gavin Coyle:

incompetent people into a competent

Gavin Coyle:

situation. Wasn't was manual

Gavin Coyle:

type task but still

Gavin Coyle:

they'd done this. And

Gavin Coyle:

so they had all this information and

Gavin Coyle:

then we said, let's go to tender

Gavin Coyle:

now. So we help them with the tender

Gavin Coyle:

process and we have to select

Gavin Coyle:

a contractor who specifically,

Gavin Coyle:

that's all they done.

Gavin Coyle:

And they knew exactly the dollar

Gavin Coyle:

value, how much that was worth than

Gavin Coyle:

in terms of savings.

Gavin Coyle:

So now our people are able to hold,

Gavin Coyle:

they become more productive because

Gavin Coyle:

now you have more capacity to take

Gavin Coyle:

on more work, because now your real

Gavin Coyle:

people, your direct staff, has

Gavin Coyle:

had time to do other things

Gavin Coyle:

and you had a company that was just

Gavin Coyle:

focused on those difficult tasks

Gavin Coyle:

that these guys were doing anyway.

Gavin Coyle:

And you knew the margins and you

Gavin Coyle:

knew what you were making and

Gavin Coyle:

still have a kind of

Gavin Coyle:

a wry smile with that company

Gavin Coyle:

because they've made over a billion

Gavin Coyle:

in terms of savings and

Gavin Coyle:

they've gone on to bigger things as

Gavin Coyle:

a company.

Gavin Coyle:

And it's just again, it's just

Gavin Coyle:

another way of companies

Gavin Coyle:

to say, stop.

Gavin Coyle:

What are you actually doing and what

Gavin Coyle:

is your specialty or what are you

Gavin Coyle:

what is your focus and where do you

Gavin Coyle:

want to be and what type of an

Gavin Coyle:

organization do you want to be known

Gavin Coyle:

for?

Gavin Coyle:

And sometimes we get distracted

Gavin Coyle:

or pulled into areas we don't

Gavin Coyle:

belong.

Gavin Coyle:

And safety has an impact

Gavin Coyle:

on that because people are

Gavin Coyle:

demotivated.

Gavin Coyle:

They weren't happy in the end, the

Gavin Coyle:

job they were in and

Gavin Coyle:

they were just going through the motions.

Seth Heckaman:

Yeah. And that opportunity was

Seth Heckaman:

identified by

Seth Heckaman:

talking to your people.

Seth Heckaman:

And so there's a good leadership

Seth Heckaman:

principle there too, of maybe that's

Seth Heckaman:

a good place to start.

Gavin Coyle:

Another classic example, just,

Gavin Coyle:

just to add to that is, when

Gavin Coyle:

we interview people and

Gavin Coyle:

which we do as part of the process,

Gavin Coyle:

we find that there's a disparity

Gavin Coyle:

of information being given

Gavin Coyle:

back to us by the people.

Gavin Coyle:

And it's done in a confidential

Gavin Coyle:

manner so people can speak

Gavin Coyle:

openly and freely.

Gavin Coyle:

But what we're really thinking about

Gavin Coyle:

on the call is and

Gavin Coyle:

with that, with that person, with

Gavin Coyle:

the manager, whoever it is guy on

Gavin Coyle:

the shop floor.

Gavin Coyle:

If there's an accident, that person

Gavin Coyle:

is going to say the exact same thing

Gavin Coyle:

to the health and safety inspector

Gavin Coyle:

that has to prosecute

Gavin Coyle:

your company.

Gavin Coyle:

And, you know, somebody is going are

Gavin Coyle:

saying exactly how they see

Gavin Coyle:

it and it's not really good.

Gavin Coyle:

In some cases they're saying, you

Gavin Coyle:

know what, we now we break

Gavin Coyle:

the process on such and such.

Gavin Coyle:

We know we don't really follow

Gavin Coyle:

through on that safety procedure.

Gavin Coyle:

You know, our my manager

Gavin Coyle:

doesn't really care about safety and

Gavin Coyle:

stuff like that.

Gavin Coyle:

So if he's going to say to me, he's

Gavin Coyle:

going to say to our health and

Gavin Coyle:

safety inspector who's prosecuting

Gavin Coyle:

maybe an accident.

Gavin Coyle:

So we need to know if people

Gavin Coyle:

we need to have a forum that people

Gavin Coyle:

can express their views and be open

Gavin Coyle:

about that.

Gavin Coyle:

They shouldn't have, obviously have

Gavin Coyle:

to be reprimanded

Gavin Coyle:

in any way, shape or form.

Gavin Coyle:

But we need to be open to better

Gavin Coyle:

conversations and so that

Gavin Coyle:

the trust can be built in such a way

Gavin Coyle:

that it's open and transparent for

Gavin Coyle:

the whole business.

Gavin Coyle:

And, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

that's an area that people kind of

Gavin Coyle:

shy away from as well, that they

Gavin Coyle:

don't really want exactly what you

Gavin Coyle:

just said, their set.

Gavin Coyle:

They don't really set sides, the

Gavin Coyle:

questions to be asked and people

Gavin Coyle:

in such a way that's, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

well, okay, if you feel that's

Gavin Coyle:

a problem, let's address the

Gavin Coyle:

problem. Let's have an open forum

Gavin Coyle:

and let's talk about.

Gavin Coyle:

Now, if you don't follow through,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, you're back to your

Gavin Coyle:

culture question and you're back to

Gavin Coyle:

it's not just safety that's going to

Gavin Coyle:

be affected. Everybody's job is

Gavin Coyle:

going to be affected now, if we

Gavin Coyle:

have this type of environment going

Gavin Coyle:

on.

Todd Miller:

Very interesting.

Todd Miller:

And I think that's you know, when

Todd Miller:

you talk about transparency and

Todd Miller:

openness, I think a lot of companies

Todd Miller:

do struggle with that when it comes

Todd Miller:

to these important things.

Todd Miller:

Everyone kind of wonders, well,

Todd Miller:

who's listening to this and who's

Todd Miller:

watching me?

Todd Miller:

And, you know, who am I really

Todd Miller:

saying this to?

Todd Miller:

And so I love that you,

Todd Miller:

as a company, as a consultant,

Todd Miller:

can bring that kind of

Todd Miller:

openness out of people.

Todd Miller:

That's great.

Todd Miller:

Kind of backing up a little bit, I'm

Todd Miller:

still kind of thinking

Todd Miller:

a lot about this concept

Todd Miller:

of businesses using

Todd Miller:

their safety record as,

Todd Miller:

you know, as something they promote

Todd Miller:

to prospective clients.

Todd Miller:

I don't see that happen very much.

Todd Miller:

I mean, are there any companies

Todd Miller:

you've seen who are really good at

Todd Miller:

that or any tools,

Todd Miller:

you know, for for being good at

Todd Miller:

that?

Gavin Coyle:

I forgot I was going to say Boeing,

Gavin Coyle:

but I...

Todd Miller:

Yeah, I.

Gavin Coyle:

I don't think,

Gavin Coyle:

but doesn't it go to show you know,

Gavin Coyle:

without going into specifics,

Gavin Coyle:

where was the open and transparent

Gavin Coyle:

discussion around that whole

Gavin Coyle:

scenario?

Todd Miller:

Right.

Gavin Coyle:

And, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

a company with massive resources

Gavin Coyle:

in terms of safety

Gavin Coyle:

and in general, but still

Gavin Coyle:

want to. And so what

Gavin Coyle:

does that tell you?

Gavin Coyle:

It doesn't matter what the size of

Gavin Coyle:

the company is, that same

Gavin Coyle:

environment or culture can be

Gavin Coyle:

transferred into a small company.

Gavin Coyle:

And if you're a small business

Gavin Coyle:

owner, listen to the podcast.

Gavin Coyle:

You know, just because it's phone or

Gavin Coyle:

just because it's whoever-sized

Gavin Coyle:

company. The same

Gavin Coyle:

challenges are in everybody's

Gavin Coyle:

business.

Gavin Coyle:

It's just different scale.

Gavin Coyle:

And at the end of the day, a

Gavin Coyle:

fatality is a fatality.

Gavin Coyle:

It's

Gavin Coyle:

a person, it's a family.

Gavin Coyle:

And it's massive collateral damage

Gavin Coyle:

that comes out of that and

Gavin Coyle:

every company that we've dealt with

Gavin Coyle:

honors their own challenges.

Gavin Coyle:

And there's nobody you can say to

Gavin Coyle:

have changed the health department,

Gavin Coyle:

their you know,

Gavin Coyle:

their and their leader,

Gavin Coyle:

if you like, in terms of health and

Gavin Coyle:

safety.

Gavin Coyle:

But,

Gavin Coyle:

as you said, Todd, how do they

Gavin Coyle:

promote and sets and in

Gavin Coyle:

terms of how do they get their

Gavin Coyle:

message out there, a safe company?

Gavin Coyle:

Like, where is it that

Gavin Coyle:

there is an implied

Gavin Coyle:

and sort of mantra

Gavin Coyle:

within the client to say,

Gavin Coyle:

You know, I don't, I just know this

Gavin Coyle:

company's safe anyway, because I

Gavin Coyle:

know their reputation.

Gavin Coyle:

I know that they're safe.

Gavin Coyle:

They don't even have to really

Gavin Coyle:

challenge it so much because

Gavin Coyle:

they just know that when you're

Gavin Coyle:

talking to really good, competent

Gavin Coyle:

people, you know, to take on, it's a

Gavin Coyle:

never for you. And fortunately,

Gavin Coyle:

especially in the contracting game

Gavin Coyle:

and the dilution

Gavin Coyle:

of people's

Gavin Coyle:

process as you go down, the food

Gavin Coyle:

chain gets worse and worse

Gavin Coyle:

and therefore the output gets worse

Gavin Coyle:

and worse.

Gavin Coyle:

And so we see people going bankrupt.

Gavin Coyle:

We see accidents happening, and

Gavin Coyle:

you see things that are happening

Gavin Coyle:

that shouldn't be happening.

Gavin Coyle:

And so we go back to transparency.

Gavin Coyle:

There isn't a transparent process

Gavin Coyle:

per se in how we

Gavin Coyle:

award contracts, how we

Gavin Coyle:

secure contracts, and how

Gavin Coyle:

we have an open, honest discussion

Gavin Coyle:

about there's enough in the pot

Gavin Coyle:

for everybody here.

Gavin Coyle:

So why don't we come together as

Gavin Coyle:

a collective team of contractors

Gavin Coyle:

and we say to clients, Look,

Gavin Coyle:

we're actually more unified than you

Gavin Coyle:

think we are.

Gavin Coyle:

We have a common purpose.

Gavin Coyle:

We have a common goal.

Gavin Coyle:

We all want to make money, and

Gavin Coyle:

we don't want to sort of have to

Gavin Coyle:

go down the sparring route of

Gavin Coyle:

subcontracting our work to

Gavin Coyle:

another subcontractor that's going

Gavin Coyle:

to subcontract out again and again

Gavin Coyle:

and again.

Gavin Coyle:

And next thing it breaks and we all

Gavin Coyle:

go, We didn't even

Gavin Coyle:

know this company existed.

Gavin Coyle:

We thought we gave this contract to

Gavin Coyle:

X Carptentry services or whatever

Gavin Coyle:

else. Like just if we want

Gavin Coyle:

to talk about start

Gavin Coyle:

correcting the situations

Gavin Coyle:

within the system.

Gavin Coyle:

The procurement system has major

Gavin Coyle:

challenges in their experience.

Seth Heckaman:

Todd, hearing him talk, I'm thinking

Seth Heckaman:

about the times that we've both had

Seth Heckaman:

being in the house with, you know,

Seth Heckaman:

one of our dealers selling a roof

Seth Heckaman:

and either the husband or the wife

Seth Heckaman:

making the comment that they

Seth Heckaman:

want to go on vacation when the roof

Seth Heckaman:

is being installed because it's

Seth Heckaman:

going to stress them out too much.

Seth Heckaman:

Seeing the guys walk up all around

Seth Heckaman:

the roof are worried something's

Seth Heckaman:

going to happen. And definitely

Seth Heckaman:

the companies that have a clear

Seth Heckaman:

process and a system

Seth Heckaman:

in place and give a clear answer

Seth Heckaman:

about how they're going to keep

Seth Heckaman:

their people safe as well as the

Seth Heckaman:

property safe during during

Seth Heckaman:

it are going to have a clear

Seth Heckaman:

advantage versus those that

Seth Heckaman:

can't say much then, other than I

Seth Heckaman:

have no idea what the sub is going

Seth Heckaman:

to do when he's up there.

Seth Heckaman:

So, yeah,

Seth Heckaman:

you know, knowing what your plan is

Seth Heckaman:

to keep people safe is, you know, a

Seth Heckaman:

clear advantage in those cases.

Todd Miller:

I always think it's interesting

Todd Miller:

whenever you know, someone is

Todd Miller:

looking at buying something or

Todd Miller:

contracting out for a service.

Todd Miller:

I think they always start with the

Todd Miller:

assumption that everything is going

Todd Miller:

to go right amongst

Todd Miller:

everyone that they're talking to as

Todd Miller:

far as possible bidders of

Todd Miller:

their project.

Todd Miller:

And some companies gradually sort

Todd Miller:

of eliminate themselves during

Todd Miller:

that bidding process where they

Todd Miller:

start to realize, oh,

Todd Miller:

things may not go quite so right

Todd Miller:

with this company, and

Todd Miller:

yet the cream always rises to the

Todd Miller:

top, hopefully.

Gavin Coyle:

Now we all know

Gavin Coyle:

that there's, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

plenty of tenders go out and

Gavin Coyle:

then

Gavin Coyle:

people don't really think about

Gavin Coyle:

their capacity.

Gavin Coyle:

And the

Gavin Coyle:

next thing, there's a contractor

Gavin Coyle:

comes in, we want that contract and

Gavin Coyle:

everybody's looking at it.

Gavin Coyle:

We actually want that contract and,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, oh shit, like, sorry for

Gavin Coyle:

the language, but where are we going

Gavin Coyle:

to get the people to deliver it?

Todd Miller:

Right.

Gavin Coyle:

Okay, well look,

Gavin Coyle:

we'll spam the next thing and in a

Gavin Coyle:

lot of cases that there should be

Gavin Coyle:

some sort of a lead-in period where

Gavin Coyle:

there's a cooling off period,

Gavin Coyle:

we talk about cooling off and

Gavin Coyle:

contracts.

Gavin Coyle:

There should be a cooling off period

Gavin Coyle:

for for contractors to allow

Gavin Coyle:

them to get up to speed

Gavin Coyle:

with regards to what the

Gavin Coyle:

requirements are for projects.

Gavin Coyle:

Because, you know,

Gavin Coyle:

a lot of people don't ask the

Gavin Coyle:

question, have you got the capacity

Gavin Coyle:

to deliver this and how many other

Gavin Coyle:

tenders have you got that are

Gavin Coyle:

out there that are live at the

Gavin Coyle:

moment?

Gavin Coyle:

And what sort of resources do you

Gavin Coyle:

have around that that actually

Gavin Coyle:

might affect the the chances

Gavin Coyle:

of you not turning up on

Gavin Coyle:

a Monday or turning

Gavin Coyle:

up on a Friday and telling me you

Gavin Coyle:

can't do a job anymore?

Todd Miller:

Well, Gavin, this has been very

Todd Miller:

interesting.

Todd Miller:

And, you know, I really do encourage

Todd Miller:

everyone to check out your book,

Todd Miller:

Workplace Safety on a Budget.

Todd Miller:

Also, of course,

Todd Miller:

gavincoyle.com and looking up the

Todd Miller:

Coyle Group. But is there anything

Todd Miller:

that we haven't covered today that

Todd Miller:

you'd like to share with our

Todd Miller:

audience?

Gavin Coyle:

That I just want everybody to

Gavin Coyle:

embrace

Gavin Coyle:

health and safety as a tool of

Gavin Coyle:

your business that's going to make

Gavin Coyle:

your money. And it's actually going

Gavin Coyle:

to improve the quality and the

Gavin Coyle:

standard of your work and

Gavin Coyle:

that, you know, you will attract

Gavin Coyle:

really good people to your business

Gavin Coyle:

if you have a reputation for safety.

Todd Miller:

Wow, we haven't even touched on that

Todd Miller:

yet. But you're yeah, that makes

Todd Miller:

every bit of sense.

Todd Miller:

So I love your model here

Todd Miller:

of just helping businesses look at

Todd Miller:

safety as a way to

Todd Miller:

grow themselves to to

Todd Miller:

profitability and and

Todd Miller:

other levels of success

Todd Miller:

rather than the sort of necessary

Todd Miller:

evil that, oh, I got to do this to

Todd Miller:

meet regulatory requirements or

Todd Miller:

something.

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, trying to make it more positive.

Seth Heckaman:

Right, and it shouldn't be taboo.

Seth Heckaman:

And it just it

Seth Heckaman:

makes so much sense because

Seth Heckaman:

it's an individual kind of a single

Seth Heckaman:

perspective that everyone can get

Seth Heckaman:

behind in the organization,

Seth Heckaman:

regardless of how many degrees you

Seth Heckaman:

are removed from the hazard

Seth Heckaman:

itself. So it makes total

Seth Heckaman:

sense.

Todd Miller:

Very good. Well, I have to ask

Todd Miller:

you, Gavin, before we close out this

Todd Miller:

episode, if you're

Todd Miller:

willing to participate in something

Todd Miller:

we call our rapid fire questions.

Todd Miller:

So this is where we have a little

Todd Miller:

fun at the end of most episodes,

Todd Miller:

and we will ask you seven

Todd Miller:

questions that may be serious,

Todd Miller:

may be silly.

Todd Miller:

All you have to do is give an

Todd Miller:

answer, and

Todd Miller:

everyone needs to understand that

Todd Miller:

you, Gavin, has absolutely no idea

Todd Miller:

what we're about to ask.

Todd Miller:

So are you up to the

Todd Miller:

challenge of rapid fire?

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, my wifi is a little bit

Gavin Coyle:

unsteady at the moment Todd, so just

Gavin Coyle:

in case it drops out, you know.

Todd Miller:

Honestly, it's not a scary process.

Gavin Coyle:

Hello, Todd? Hello, Todd?

Todd Miller:

Well, let's go.

Todd Miller:

We will alternate asking.

Todd Miller:

Seth, you want to start out?

Seth Heckaman:

Sure.

Seth Heckaman:

So rapid fire question number one,

Seth Heckaman:

what product have you bought in

Seth Heckaman:

recent memory that has been a

Seth Heckaman:

disruptor or game changer

Seth Heckaman:

for you?

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, I have to say I had a

Gavin Coyle:

Microsoft laptop and I thought

Gavin Coyle:

Microsoft was doing,

Gavin Coyle:

you know, the Microsoft Surface.

Gavin Coyle:

I thought it was phenomenal.

Gavin Coyle:

I thought this was definitely going

Gavin Coyle:

to trump the Apple

Gavin Coyle:

because I'd always been Apple.

Gavin Coyle:

And I had a heartbreak with that

Gavin Coyle:

Microsoft. I never want to see

Gavin Coyle:

Microsoft ever again.

Gavin Coyle:

I absolutely love Apple.

Gavin Coyle:

And I'm not being paid by Apple, by

Gavin Coyle:

the way. It was like and

Gavin Coyle:

I don't want to get into a lawsuit

Gavin Coyle:

here. I'm not going to discuss the

Gavin Coyle:

issues. But brand new laptop

Gavin Coyle:

shouldn't be doing some of the stuff

Gavin Coyle:

my laptop was.

Gavin Coyle:

But the Apple is working perfectly

Gavin Coyle:

well.

Todd Miller:

All four of us involved with the

Todd Miller:

show here today are Apple folks.

Todd Miller:

So you're in

Todd Miller:

a friendly audience there.

Todd Miller:

So question number two,

Todd Miller:

what part of a business

Todd Miller:

do you think absolutely must

Todd Miller:

be gotten right?

Todd Miller:

In other words, if a business can't

Todd Miller:

get this right, there's no

Todd Miller:

point in even attempting anything

Todd Miller:

else.

Todd Miller:

This may be a softball question for

Todd Miller:

you, or maybe it's a little bit

Todd Miller:

harder. I don't know.

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah.

Gavin Coyle:

At the end of the day, if

Gavin Coyle:

we spoke about it earlier,

Gavin Coyle:

if your

Gavin Coyle:

culture and your systems and your

Gavin Coyle:

processes doesn't match up, go home.

Gavin Coyle:

It's not worth it.

Gavin Coyle:

You're in total disarray,

Gavin Coyle:

you're in chaos, you're in negative

Gavin Coyle:

territory and

Gavin Coyle:

you don't know what to do.

Gavin Coyle:

And that might sound harsh,

Gavin Coyle:

but like, if you want a rain check

Gavin Coyle:

and if you haven't got the strength

Gavin Coyle:

or if you can't bring people around

Gavin Coyle:

you that can give you the strength

Gavin Coyle:

and the confidence to deliver,

Gavin Coyle:

though, in those areas.

Gavin Coyle:

You're going to be a failure.

Todd Miller:

That's a good answer. Very good.

Seth Heckaman:

Absolutely. Question number three, What

Seth Heckaman:

would you like to be remembered for?

Gavin Coyle:

I was thinking of some events on

Gavin Coyle:

Saturday night, but that's not going

Gavin Coyle:

to

Gavin Coyle:

happen.

Gavin Coyle:

I don't think that's going to.

Gavin Coyle:

I'd like to be able to

Gavin Coyle:

for people to say that

Gavin Coyle:

I done me best in health and safety

Gavin Coyle:

to deliver safety for people

Gavin Coyle:

at all levels, regardless of who

Gavin Coyle:

or where they are in the world

Gavin Coyle:

of what size a company they work

Gavin Coyle:

for or what age they are or

Gavin Coyle:

race or anything or whatever.

Gavin Coyle:

It's just, you know, at the end of

Gavin Coyle:

the day, everybody

Gavin Coyle:

deserves safety.

Todd Miller:

Good stuff, So our first three

Todd Miller:

questions were a little heavier.

Todd Miller:

The next four are actually a little

Todd Miller:

more lighthearted, just so you know.

Gavin Coyle:

Okay.

Todd Miller:

Question number four.

Todd Miller:

If you had to eat a crayon,

Todd Miller:

what color of crayon would you

Todd Miller:

choose?

Gavin Coyle:

I can't. That's

Gavin Coyle:

not safe.

Gavin Coyle:

That's not a safe question to ask anybody.

Todd Miller:

I figured that would come up.

Gavin Coyle:

Oh,

Gavin Coyle:

my God. Next question please.

Gavin Coyle:

Who asks the safety person

Gavin Coyle:

that question? I remember you,

Gavin Coyle:

you're the crayon man.

Gavin Coyle:

Safety guy told everybody he eats crayons

Gavin Coyle:

there.

Gavin Coyle:

I'm sorry, I can't go there.

Gavin Coyle:

That's actually, that's

Gavin Coyle:

a planted question, Todd.

Gavin Coyle:

I have to say, when you

Gavin Coyle:

roll that one in very nicely to see

Gavin Coyle:

and test me.

Gavin Coyle:

Moving on, moving on.

Todd Miller:

We will move on. I'm not sure what your reaction

Todd Miller:

will be to this next one, though.

Gavin Coyle:

Whoa.

Seth Heckaman:

So the next one, you're

Seth Heckaman:

trying to survive a zombie

Seth Heckaman:

apocalypse.

Seth Heckaman:

What one person do you definitely

Seth Heckaman:

want on your team?

Gavin Coyle:

Oh, Elon Musk.

Gavin Coyle:

All day, every day.

Gavin Coyle:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gavin Coyle:

He's got the assets, he's got the resources.

Gavin Coyle:

He's got the spaceship to get us out

Gavin Coyle:

of there.

Seth Heckaman:

There you go. Good answer.

Todd Miller:

I like it.

Todd Miller:

Okay, next to last question.

Todd Miller:

Are you a morning person or a night

Todd Miller:

owl?

Gavin Coyle:

Good question.

Gavin Coyle:

I would suggest I'd be a night owl.

Todd Miller:

I was more of a night owl when I was

Todd Miller:

younger. But as I get older, I'm a

Todd Miller:

morning person.

Todd Miller:

I conk out about 9:00 at night.

Seth Heckaman:

Alright. Last rapid fire question.

Seth Heckaman:

Would you prefer to have to wear

Seth Heckaman:

bellbottom pants or have

Seth Heckaman:

your hair styled in a mohawk?

Gavin Coyle:

Oh, my God. Well, look at that.

Gavin Coyle:

Have you seen my hair?

Todd Miller:

Well, I'm