The Dr.

Jeremy Cox.

That's right, the one and only Jeremy Cox, star of our very first documentary, DFL before dnf.

The reason that I got into trail running.

My name is Josh from Borderlands Trail Running, and I'm here because I love it.

But I didn't know that I could love it until I met a guy named Jeremy Cox who was planning to run the Wasatch 100.

And I just couldn't believe what he was going to do.

And I paid attention.

After about 10 years of being a friend of his, I'm still blown away by how he can just bear down and keep going in the face of pain, in the face of everything telling him to stop.

So we did the doc and now I want to talk to him more.

So this is the DFL Before DNF podcast, inspired by the great Jeremy Cox.

Jeremy Cox was the subject of our documentary by the same name, DFL before DNF.

Because what I witnessed in 2019 as a, as a mere pacer of Jeremy's made me think that even though I had been fully engaged in the sport for three or four years, five years, at this point, the wild endurance effort of endurance that I had, that I saw in Jeremy that year was something that's still unmatched to this day because that was the year that you kept going even after the finish line had been torn down.

And so we made a documentary about it.

Super inspiring, if I may say so myself.

And so I wanted to bring you in on episode three of trit.

Trit is a four episode docu series for me of, of.

I'm going back to the 100 mile distance.

I don't have a lot of luck with it.

I'm literally the worst 100 mile runner in the country.

I haven't, I've yet to find my match.

One out of eight.

I finished once out of eight tries and maybe one or two DNFs are justifiable.

The rest of them are debatable.

So I'm looking to understand from runners like you other runners I'm interviewing for this documentary and for this season of the podcast of how do you keep going?

That was the question of the documentary we did together.

How do you keep going?

But more than ever, I'm interested in that question because I want that finish.

That finish means something to me.

So before we go into that, let's talk a little bit about Jeremy Cox, the human.

Okay, who are you?

Tell, tell us about who you are.

What do you do?

I mean, that sounds like an existential question.

So Only to you.

Professionally, I'm.

I'm a data nerd.

Okay.

So I always have been, I guess 20, 20 or so years of doing data analysis, making pretty pictures with data, building mathematical models, that sort of thing.

Detour into research and academia.

But I think I'm a pretty, I don't know, nerdy guy.

Why do you think?

Because our first interview was with Elsa, and her degree was in engineering.

And earlier today we talked about Davey Crockett, who's some type of engineer.

And you're an engineer.

Do you think there's something about engineering and ultra running?

Yeah, I mean, I think there's definitely lots of problems that you're solving.

You're sort of constantly thinking about your nutrition, your stomach, your feet, your shoes, the terrain, what's coming up in the course, how much elevation is in this next section, how hot is it going to be?

What did I put in my next drop bag?

There's just a lot of problems.

I mean, I don't think that means an artist wouldn't be good at this.

I think there's lots of people that appreciate beauty and music and nature.

But, yeah, okay, so you're a data guy, engineer type.

What was your introduction?

Because my introduction into the world of ultra running was when you handed me Unbreakable on DVD, no less, in maybe 2012.

Back in the old days.

Yeah, it was literally on dvd.

And you said, you should watch this, because I was starting to.

I was intrigued.

You had just tried.

Maybe you just run Wasatch, or maybe you were leading up to it, and you handed me Unbreakable.

And I was like, oh, God, I love it.

What is.

Because anytime someone asked me what got me into it, I always say, when Jeremy Cox handed me Unbreakable, what's your version of that?

I mean, so for me, it probably even goes back to when I was a kid.

It was the CBS Wide World of Sports showed, the 1986 or 87 Ironman World Championship.

And this was the.

This was a year that Rick and Dick Hoyt did it together.

And Rick Hoyt is the son.

Dick Hoyt's the father.

Rick was born with oxygen deprivation.

Cord was wrapped around his neck.

And so he basically didn't have function of his body, very smart mind, but his, you know, body just wasn't functioning.

And Rick, or excuse me, Dick, the father, had been a smoker.

And at some point he ran with his kid in a 5k in a stroller.

Yeah.

And the kid loved it.

You know, he could write.

And so he said, like, I really felt Like I was running because it was one of those you, you know, three wheeled strollers.

So he's out in front.

And Dick started doing marathons.

They're from Boston, so they've done Boston, like sub 3 hour Boston marathons with a stroller.

Yeah.

And then at some point they move into Ironman races.

So he's doing a 2.4 mile swim, towing this Sevlor raft with Rick in it.

And then he'd carry him through transition.

He wouldn't have anybody help him.

He'd carry him, put him in the basket of this, you know, ungodly heavy bike.

Bike 112 miles through Hawaiian lava fields and then, and then run a low three hour marathon in the Hawaiian heat.

And I watched this, I guess I would have been like 11 or 12.

And I just thought, I want to do that.

But I simultaneously thought running a marathon was impossible.

Yeah.

Let alone doing it, you know, in that capacity.

Yeah.

So I started running so I could do triathlons.

I had no intention of doing ultras.

And then somewhere in the, you know, build up to doing my first Ironman, I started reading, you know, the Born to Runs and listening to the trail running podcasts.

And what year was, would that have been?

Probably like 2007, 8.

Okay.

Somewhere in there what, what show running.

Podcast would have been.

So there was one out of Kansas, I think, called Endurance Planet.

Okay.

I don't even know how many of these are still around.

That one was a couple of guys that would do like, like they would talk about putting drywall screws through their shoes, through the soles of their shoes so they could run in the.

Yeah.

Kansas winter.

Yeah.

And I'm, I'm like picturing a bunch of guys running through slightly rolling.

Yeah.

Wheat fields.

But they talk about these 6 and 12 hour races which, you know, at the time I'm still thinking like a marathon is ultimate.

Yeah.

I mean I, I did my, I did my first 20 miler and thought I shattered both my legs.

Like I was in so much pain.

Yeah.

So, yeah, it was sort of, sort of interesting to get to the point where I could conceive of signing up for a hundred miler.

Yeah.

I mean I, I love the, the wild Wide World of sports too.

I think they did a feature on Leadville.

I think at one point I could be wrong about that.

But the, so you would say the singular.

If there was a singular moment, you watched that Wide world of Sports and thought, I want to do something like big and challenging.

I mean, it sort of hit me that like this thing I see as possible, this guy's doing it and he's making it even harder on himself.

You know what I mean?

I'd read Dean Carnazzi's, I think it was called.

It was either Marathon man or the Ultra Marathon Man.

Yeah.

Or the other one where he talks about hallucinating at Badwater.

Yes.

And I mean, just like 135 miles.

Yeah.

If 26.2 seemed impossible.

135 seems Martian.

Yeah.

You know, it's just not something humans do.

And then you run on the white line through Death Valley so your soles.

Of your shoes don't melt.

Yeah.

I mean, it's just inconceivable.

It's that one still maybe a little inconceivable to me.

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's insightful.

That the wide world of sports, that guy dragging his son, that.

That was like something that was hard.

That he was voluntarily making it harder.

That's such a good.

If you reduce ultra running all the way down to.

It's like basics, like running is hard.

And now we're going to run a hundred miles.

That's harder.

And you're going to do it through back country.

Yeah.

Where you've got elevation and heat and unknown weather and.

Yeah.

So what was your journey?

I know your first hundred miler was Wasatch.

Your journey leading up to that was filled with Ironman or at least Ironman equivalent distances.

Right.

Well, talk about that journey.

Yeah.

So I did.

I did my first Ironman in.

I'm blanking on the year, but I want to say it was either 2012 or 13.

I did my first marathon in 2008 or nine.

It was the Eugene Marathon, which is more or less flat.

And it completely destroyed me.

Yeah.

I had to back downstairs for, you know, a week afterwards.

Like.

Like happens to a lot of folks.

It was a 4.

A 4:16 marathon.

And I was about 155 at the half.

So that just tells you how much I blew up at the end.

So my first.

My first Ironman, it was in Lake Havu.

It was not an Iron man event.

It was a hits, which is a smaller promotion.

But okay.

It was a great.

But Iron man, yeah.

Yeah.

I felt pretty good.

It was hot.

I ran well.

I biked well.

I mean, everything went according to plan.

I didn't.

I didn't feel exceptionally beat up afterwards.

And I kind of.

I'd kind of already had a little bit of interest.

So I.

I knew once I did that, you know, I wasn't really going to go for a double.

A double Ironman.

So I.

I thought I'd.

I thought I'd explore the next.

That would have been November.

Yeah, that next summer, I.

I was with a buddy on the Wasatch board, and they.

They had a section where you could request pacers.

So a friend of mine and I, we were just going to find somebody to pace some random poor soul.

Yeah.

I ended up meeting a guy at a softball game who was going to run, and so I volunteered.

And I don't know that he was necessarily in need of a pacer or anything, but, you know, we show up, my friend Brian, he paces from Mile 50 to Brighton, and then I pick up from Brighton to the finish.

And I mean, one.

I think if you jump in pacing someone at mile 75.

Yeah.

You're like, my God, this is easy because you're hiking more than you're running, and it's beautiful, and you're feeling fresh, and the aid stations are so much more fun than a marathon aid station, and so you're really enjoying all of it.

So we.

We finished that.

My.

My buddy finished.

We finished that.

And then I signed up for the Buffalo 50.

That was my first official ultra.

Yeah, I signed up for.

I put in for Wasatch and Drew in for that year.

Yeah.

I think I did Kachina, Mosa, 100K all in the same year.

Yeah.

This was 2013 or 14.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the old course, the old Wasatch start, I should mention the.

I guess, like, chin scraper.

Yes, Chin scraper.

Yeah.

So back when we had a tough.

Start to the race, in my day, on my two DNFs of Wasatch, that felt plenty tough without chin Scraper, so I can't imagine a chin scraper course.

Yeah, I don't think it matters, but.

Gosh, I mean, it's like 3,500ft in the first, what, four miles?

Yeah.

The fact that it sucks is the only thing that's guaranteed.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I love it.

Okay, so you do that first 50.

Do you remember how you felt about that first 50?

Knowing also that you had a hundred coming?

You've only done a marathon to that point.

What Was that first 50 like?

Yeah.

So, curiously, it was the only race.

I've lost a toenail mid race.

No, no, no.

Okay.

After I.

So I started off, same buddy, he also signed up for it.

I'd spent the night at his house in Syracuse, so we were closer to the start.

It was sort of.

It was the, like, 5:00am start.

Yeah.

And I was Talking to him at the start line.

And if you, if you know the buffalo course, you start with a pretty gentle but long uphill.

Yeah.

And because I'm talking to him, I'm running up this hill.

And I hadn't been running hills.

Really?

Yeah.

And I knew when I got to the top, I'd probably screwed myself by the time I got to Elephant Head.

So we're not even 10 miles in and I'm thinking, oh, man, I'm feeling a little tired in my legs.

We do the 20 mile loop and then it.

The course, I think gets really boring after that first 20 mile section.

Agreed.

And so the whole way down to the ranch Prairie.

Yeah, yeah.

Past ferry to the ranch.

I'm just thinking like, oh, my God, I am going so slow.

And like you mentioned this before, dead horse about setting all these crazy unrealistic goals.

I'm going in thinking like, add nine if things go bad.

10.

And now I'm like, oh, my gosh, I'm not even sure I'm going to break 12 on a flat, flat 50 miler.

Yeah, I did.

I was like 11:30ish, but nice.

That was 11:30 on that 50.

Yeah.

Okay.

As I'm coming back towards the finish, it was a section where you're on a gravel road and there's a buffalo crossing the road in front of me.

And I think the year before, somebody had gotten smashed.

Yes.

Gorgeous.

By a buffalo into a fence.

Yep.

And I'm seeing this buffalo and I'm like, oh, God, if he charges, I can't run.

Yeah.

Like I literally can't run.

So I turned, I turned behind me to see how far the next runner is.

Yeah.

And I just waited for him.

And then like a coward, I.

I made sure they were between me and the buffalo.

They're not even paying attention.

They're just sort of doing the old man shuffle.

Yeah.

But I'm like using them as a human shield to avoid.

Avoid this buffalo.

It was probably my most shameful moment.

Ultra, ultra running.

Yeah.

All right, so you finished that.

That would have been in like what, March or so.

March.

Yeah.

And then you've got Kachina Mosa, the super iconic, though.

Even though there's not a lot of runners that run it, I still think of it as iconic.

And I don't know if it's because of how old it is or if it's because the race director, but down in Utah county, it's just a beast of 100k.

Yeah.

I think the.

So it's early August.

Yeah.

And they do a 3am start to sort of get you through some of the elevation before it gets real hot.

There is like a 1am start if you're feeling like you're going to be slower.

Yeah, I did that.

But, yeah, I mean, it just.

It had some monster, monster climbs.

They felt monster.

You're just completely exposed, and it's like 18,000ft over.

Okay.

I think John maybe overstates the elevation.

As race directors did prior to the.

Like the Garmin.

Yeah.

I mean, Phil.

Phil Lowry, local legend.

Phil Lowry tends to keep people pretty honest on that distance and elevation.

But, yeah, it's probably like low teens.

Okay.

Total.

But, I mean, it's.

It's tough.

The heat is.

I think the.

That's challenging part.

Yeah.

That's brutal.

There's an aid station there.

I'm blanking on the name of the aid station, but it's an aid station where you climb up a hill.

There's no roads to it, but there.

There's a table and snacks and water.

And you realize, like, as you're coming up, everything up there, somebody had to hike in.

People had to carry it up the hill.

And it's.

And it's run by a recovery group, and it's.

It's a group that does mainly, like, uses endurance sports as a part of it.

I wish I could remember what it was.

I remember chatting with one of the guys.

He told me what it was, and I was really compelled by it.

It's.

It's so cool because you.

I mean, you're like.

You're really dragging by the time you get there, and, man, those guys make you feel really good about life.

Yeah.

Yep.

And then, you know, it's literally almost all downhill after that.

Yeah, I.

I timed out at Kachina, so they.

They forced me to.

They wouldn't let me back out.

Sometimes I go real slow.

I don't think that's a dnf, by the way.

What is that?

It's a timeout.

Yeah, I timed out.

I've had a couple timeouts.

I think a timeout is better than a dnf.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree, because they told me to stop.

Yeah.

You didn't have a choice.

You would have kept going.

Maybe 100%.

Yeah, probably.

Yeah.

Okay, so your.

Your hundred mile finishes are Wasatch, Zion and Buffalo.

Yeah.

Are there any moments, because this is.

This is where, like that this series of podcasts and this episode three of Trail Grit is purely selfish for me, is that I'm really like, let's assume that I get the volume of miles that I need, which is, you know, is.

Is no guarantee with three kids and, you know, lots going on in personal life.

Let's assume I get the volume that I need and on race day, my body could go 100 miles.

I'm trying to figure out what's.

What's left other than just like, grin and bear it, you know, to finish.

There's.

I.

I've DNF'd.

There's only one in retrospect that's like, yeah, I made a 100%, made the right call.

There was some rhabdo and gout.

I couldn't get past the gout.

And it turned out there was also rhabdo.

That's the only one I don't question.

Yeah, I don't know what those mean, but I.

I assume they're serious.

And you're probably right.

They're rhdo serious.

I didn't have a.

Like, it's like.

It's a kidney function thing.

I just know.

I think the lunch lady and Adam Sandler song had the gout.

She had the gout.

That's right.

Gout is.

That sounds serious.

Is uric crystals that gather in the bottom of your feet because of gravity, and they go down and it just hurts really, really, really, really bad.

Yeah.

And it runs in my family.

My dad had it.

But on those three races, is there a moment that you can, like, clearly recollect that you wanted to quit and you didn't and why?

I don't think there's like necessarily a single moment.

I probably Zion would be the only one where I didn't feel like, why am I doing this?

Really?

Yeah.

I mean.

And so Zion, I think the reason was because I had so much time.

Like, I, you know, I could have.

I think if I could have ran the last 30 miles, even at a 15 to 20 minute pace, I would have been sub 30.

It was going really well.

Yeah.

We.

So for context, we ran those first 50 miles together and.

Yeah, that's.

That's interesting to hear you recollect that.

I do recall looking back and thinking that those first 50 miles were great and pretty quick.

50 miles.

Yeah.

And, you know, that course, I think, is a pretty gentle one.

It doesn't beat you up a ton.

It's not overly hot.

It's nice scenery.

Yes.

So I honestly, like, even when it sucks, you know, you can just walk to the finish.

Yeah.

It doesn't require anything other than not quitting.

Yeah.

All right.

One thing we have in common is that we both have Three kids, both have a wife.

True, true.

When I'm out there, there are.

There are things, though, like, even if I think, okay, yeah, you know what, I could just walk it in and I'll make it.

I.

I have trouble.

I mean, I think about my kids.

I think about my wife with the kids, like.

And your kids are older than mine, but maybe at the time they weren't terribly older.

I really struggle with, you know, leaving my kids totally to my wife while I'm out doing.

What am I doing.

I mean.

Yeah.

I mean, I don't even know how to characterize it.

I'm trying to run 100 miles.

What is that all about?

And then my wife's doing this very practical thing of being with the kids.

Was that ever a thing for you?

I don't.

I don't.

I don't think so.

I mean, I might be of a more selfish generation of husband.

Let's see, you were born in 76.

77.

77.

I'm born in 83.

We're not too far off.

My wife was born in 83.

Okay.

No, I.

I don't.

I mean, I think.

I think when I started.

When I started running, I.

I did a lot of the training early in the morning so that I'd be home at 9 or 10 in the morning.

Yeah.

And even.

Even a lot of my long runs in the summer, at least.

At least back then, were early enough to where I'd be home by, you know, 10, 11.

Contributing noon at the latest.

Well, in theory.

Right.

And then, you know, 3pm rolls around, and you're like, hey, kids, you want to take a nap with old dad?

Of course they don't.

Yeah.

So, you know, I think there was.

I don't know, I just didn't feel.

I didn't feel that sense.

And they, like, since my kids were little, we've had a bag of cowbells and noise makers, and we've gone and watched races and marathons and even 5Ks, just as, like a family of spectators.

Yeah.

For no good reason other than.

It's just what we've done.

So I think for my kids, going to a race, there was always.

It wasn't a departure from something we would have done anyway.

Okay.

It's just now it's me.

And I would try to do things.

Like I mentioned that 50 miler.

You know, I drove up and spent the night with a buddy, and then they knew when to come and see me at the ranch or whatever.

I remember.

Yeah.

The.

Your family delivering you, like a big Alberto's burrito.

Yeah.

At the ranch at Buffalo.

Yeah, yeah, they, yeah, they, they know I like burritos during the race, so.

Yeah, but.

So is there a moment in any of your 300 mile efforts where youth.

Where you would have said, when I get to this next aid station, I'm gonna dnf.

I mean, I think I've, I think I've said it more as a expression of what I'm feeling rather than, this is something I'm going to do.

Yeah.

I've never really said I'm going to quit.

I've said I've wanted to quit.

So.

Even at Antelope, the very last aid station.

Yeah, I, you know, I'm like, kidding.

I'm, I'm pretty down, tearing up a little.

And I tearfully said to my wife, like, I don't want to finish.

Right.

And, you know, she's, she's not the type to coddle, so she says, you know, something like, yeah, you can quit.

You just quit in five miles.

Don't quit here.

Yeah.

Quit at the finish line.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I mean, who quits at the last aid station?

I mean, I'm sure if you quit at the last aid station, there are really good reasons.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

There's legit, legit reasons.

That's, that'd be a hard one to recover from if you quit for bad reasons.

So are you saying that you never legitimately entertain quitting?

I mean, it's probably like, it's probably like, if someone ask, do you ever think about getting divorced?

You'd probably be like, I think about what it's like to not be married, but I'm not, I'm not going to take the action to do that.

That's.

I, I feel like it's similar.

Yeah.

Everybody thinks about, what if they, what if I got to the next aid station and they said, hey, you can't run anymore?

I'd feel happy and relieved, but I'm not going to cause that to happen.

Yeah.

I'm gonna keep going.

Yeah.

And I think there's always, you know, I've never repeated a hundred miler.

Yeah.

This is my first year.

I'm gonna do Zion again.

Yeah.

This will be my first year doing one for a second time.

There's, there's always a nagging thing of like, well, if I quit now, I'd have to come back, right.

Because I wouldn't, I wouldn't want it to get the last word, so I'd have to come back and do it again.

And so if you're running Zion for the second time, do you feel.

I don't know, you know, that'll be interesting.

So I chose an easier one to do for a second time.

Yeah.

Easier.

You know, if it's, if it's not hot, I guess.

Still 100 miles.

Still 100 mile.

So, I mean, what's your advice for me?

You've, you've, you've seen, you've had a front row seat to some DNFs of mine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

What am I getting wrong?

What could I do different?

So I think like we were saying earlier when the times, you know, we'll, we'll sort of, we'll sort of ignore the rhabdo.

Sure.

The gout.

Yeah.

That's a unique one.

Yeah.

But we still have eight others we can talk about.

Seven others.

Seven.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like, I never.

At least the races I've been at with you where you've DNF'd, I've never seen you at the finish line.

Yeah.

And so you make it really easy on yourself.

Yeah.

Like you, you know, it's going to be emotionally hard to watch people you are running with.

Finish.

Oh, I hate it.

Absolutely.

I did it once.

I did I DNF Bryce once.

And I went to the finish line, I was like, good God, this.

Yes.

You've.

You made it really easy.

Can't look at this.

And then like every time, at least that I've heard about it, you're.

You're gone.

Before, like I.

At Zions, we were running into the same aid station together.

I do one little six mile loop and you're done.

Thank God.

And you're not even in St.

George for all I know.

Yeah.

Who knows, right?

Yeah.

I'm on a hurricane.

Hurricane.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so I think, like, there are some things where, like, you should put yourself in a position to.

If you quit, you gotta carry all of it.

Ride, ride to a race with somebody who's gonna finish.

You know what I mean?

Right.

Like, there's nobody with a warm car to pick you up and get you to a shower.

Yeah.

You've got to ask volunteers to take you to a campsite, which I did do that.

I'm not saying that.

And then you got to sleep in a tent after your DNF.

I mean, Bryce 2017 was similar to that, but the point is taken.

Like.

Yeah, I give myself a way out.

Yeah.

I mean, everybody can, right?

Yeah, I guess everybody can.

How come you don't.

How come so many people don't.

I don't know what Is it?

I mean, I think the other thing you should do is maybe.

Maybe talk more beforehand so that, like, now you've got some ego in it, too.

You know, You've been talking up your seven DNFs.

Yes.

What's.

What's eight of nine if, you know you've already DNF seven of eight.

Yeah.

There's a.

There's a guy in Oregon who gave me that same advice.

I think his name.

His name is Ryan Cotton, I believe.

And I said, what's your secret?

He said, I talk a lot of shit before the race to where if I don't finish, it's.

It's way worse than if I, you know, than if I didn't talk the.

Yeah, I mean, I think there's something.

There's something to that.

Right.

You're creating the Persona you want to be, and then now you've got to, you know, execute and live up to it.

Yeah.

But I mean, there have been several races.

Well, I can't think of, like, exactly, but you could have walked the rest of Zions with me.

Oh, of.

So, yeah.

Was that the Rabdo gout one?

No, that.

So the first one that we ran together, 2017.

My greatest regret is that you and I didn't stay together because we had such a strong 50 miles, but then we had all these pacers lined up, and so we kind of just went off with pacers.

And no offense to my pacers, they were, you know, great men that I loved dearly who flew in from Florida and from Texas and all these.

But we had such a good thing going.

I just wonder what my.

My 100 mile life would be like if I had just stayed with you that year.

And I think you ran off with Evan at that point or.

And I ran off with a guy named Lee Mashburn, and I thought, should have.

We should just stay together.

That was a solid first 50 miles.

Yeah, it was.

It was.

Probably.

I should go back and look at the split.

I wonder if it's, like, one of my faster 50 milers.

Yeah.

And then the next morning, I wake up and, like, Jeremy's still out there.

And I was like, God damn, I should still be out there.

I can't.

And I remember Freeberg goes over to pace you, and Caleb goes over to pace you, and I'm just like, oh, this is awful.

Yeah, I should probably gone and watched.

Yeah.

I mean, I think the thing is, like, I'm very confident in my ability to keep walking.

Yeah.

Why?

How?

Because walking's not that hard.

I Mean, you're.

You're.

You get bored.

Sure.

And your feet hurt.

Yeah.

And your stomach hurts.

But, like, you can keep walking, but.

What compels you to keep going?

I don't know.

I mean, I'm.

I haven't quit.

Right.

And I have a fear that the folks I know, it seems like they have this series of finishes and then they have this string of DNFs.

It's rare that you have somebody that has a string of finishes.

One DNF and then another string of finishes.

And so I worry that, like, once you.

Once you fill the car.

Yeah.

Once you let yourself know how easy it is.

Yeah.

Then it.

You know, then the next one is easier.

Yeah.

I.

I mean, I'm sure this is true for lots of other things as well that I'm probably not as good at.

But so far, I've never felt the.

I've never felt how easy it is to dnf.

So.

Yeah, I'm scared.

I'm scared, too, honestly.

Yeah.

But I also sort of have it in my mind that, like, if I'm gonna.

If I'm gonna quit, it's probably gonna look like walking slow and timing out, which.

Yeah.

You know what I mean?

Which I've walked slow and just have luckily not timed out.

Yeah.

But I haven't finished one of these.

Strong.

Yeah.

So that's something I'm hoping to do this year.

Well, it was fun to.

To run with you at Dead Horse this year.

We both kind of got back on the saddle, and you had a longer time off than I did, and you seem to have done a.

Done a great job.

Yeah, of course.

But.

So here's.

Here's something I think you should think about with Dead Horse, because you had a.

You had a dog, 30 miles.

Yeah.

And then it all turned around at.

Mile 34 or 36.

Woke up.

Yeah.

And so, like, you know, like, taking Zion as an example not to sort of do too much woulda, shoulda, coulda on that one.

But, like, for all you know, it could have gotten great at mile 80.

I know.

And I think that's what you gotta just keep reminding yourself whenever you feel bad, like.

Yeah, so what?

This too shall pass.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Or it doesn't.

But, like, it's not that bad.

Right.

You know, we have.

We have healthy kids.

We have four working limbs.

Most of our faculties are still with us for now.

We've married out of our league.

Like, life is really good.

Yeah.

And we're doing something that historically nobody would ever do except for survival.

We're doing it as recreation.

Yeah.

As pleasure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And the worst it gets is I don't feel good.

Big deal.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like it's.

You know, when.

When most of us quit.

It's in the 20 hour range.

Early 20 hours.

That's right.

So what, you suffer for 12 more hours?

Yeah, big deal.

That's a good note to end on.

Maybe.

We'll see.

At Zion.

Yeah.

You're running Rufa, the 24 hour Rufa here in Salt Lake City.

Yeah.

And then Zion.

Do you have anything else?

I'm doing the.

Ouch.

The.

Oh, right.

The grassroots Ochre Ultra race.

Joshua Landvater.

12 hours of that.

I'm back and forth on the Ute 100.

Yeah.

Some folks were trying to convince me to take a shot at Old Dominion, but.

So Old Dominion has, I believe, a 28 or 30 hour cutoff.

Oh.

And that actually scares me more than.

Yeah.

The other race I was considering at that same time is sold out.

It's the Cruel Jewel, which is a 48.

Is that the Canadian race?

No, it's in North Georgia.

North Georgia.

Okay.

It's a 48 hour cutoff with 33, 000ft of climbing.

And for me, I'm like, oh, 48 hour cutoff, I could finish that.

But 28 hours, I'm gonna have to run fast the whole time.

Yeah.

That's a lot of running.

48 hours.

I just have to.

Yeah.

Keep hiking.

Yeah.

Well, we'll see out there.

Yeah.

All right, Good luck.