Steve Palmer [00:00:00]:

Steve Palmer here, LawyerTalkPodcast.com, you know, there's nothing better than a good debate. There's nothing better than a good old fashioned argument. I don't mean like fighting each other, throwing fisticuffs, but like really sort of digging into a debate over a drink. I don't drink alcohol anymore, but over whatever, whatever, over coffee, whatever you drink. And I had one of those debates the other day with a guy, a really, really incredibly smart guy, very strong willed, strong minded, and he was expressing his exacerbation that somebody in a famous case that's going on now, not going to mention it, entered a not guilty plea when it's pretty obvious to the world that this person is guilty as the day is long. So let's break that down for a second. Somebody's accused of a crime, maybe on videotape, committing cold blooded murder. So there's really no question factually whether this person did it, because he did.

Steve Palmer [00:00:53]:

And some state, maybe New York, indicts him on murder and the person goes into the courtroom at the arraignment. Now the arraignment, by the way, is the first proceeding in a case you've been charged with a crime, indicted, however, whatever the charging instrument is called, and you go into a court and the first thing that typically happens after some bond hearing and reading of the charges proceedings is something called an arraignment. An arraignment is where you enter a plea. And the plea, typically you get a couple or three choices. Guilty, not guilty, no Condendaria, meaning no contest. So the second two are the first and third guilty and no contest end up the same way. You're going to be found guilty, probably, and then not guilty sends the case down the normal progression of the criminal process. So the person I was debating and talking to and arguing with and discussing about or discussing this, didn't like that somebody who was obviously guilty would plead not guilty.

Steve Palmer [00:01:54]:

And I hear this all the time in the media, this sort of outrage. How could he possibly plead not guilty? And you know, if you're an insider in the system, meaning you know anything about the system at all, doing criminal defense work or even prosecution work, you know that it would be the opposite is really true. If somebody went in at the arraignment stage and in say a murder case or a high publicity case or any case for that matter, and tried to plead guilty, now the court would probably stop and say, hold on a second, you sure you want to do that? Some courts, I have found, don't even let people do that, they would just continue the case and say, we're not going to take your guilty plea right now. Go talk to a lawyer or have another discussion. I don't want to do that now. I guess you could theoretically force a judge and say, look, this is my procedure, my arraignment. I'm pleading guilty. Darn it, take my plea.

Steve Palmer [00:02:46]:

You could do that. But my point is, it's an unusual thing. It doesn't happen very often. The reason it doesn't happen very often is because a not guilty plea is really just saying I want to go through the process, and the process is there for a reason. So I plead not guilty with my client. Then I can file a demand for discovery where I can review the evidence and talk to my client about what the evidence is against him or her. Sometimes there's a procedural challenge. I know there's people out there that say technicalities.

Steve Palmer [00:03:17]:

I say constitution, so you choose. But let's say there's a search and seizure problem, a Fourth Amendment problem, or maybe the police interrogated my client a little too aggressively and they violated his right to counsel under the Sixth Amendment. Sometimes those things happen. And we're not really saying not guilty forever. We're saying not guilty for now, most of the time, because we're going to review the evidence and see what the case is about. Look, who am I to suggest that the government might actually overcharge somebody with a crime for publicity reasons or for political reasons or because they have egos like the rest of us do? Why would I dare suggest that? Well, because I've lived it for almost 30 years, folks, and this stuff happens. So sometimes we plead not guilty because there's a charge that's too much. And what we're really doing is entering into a phase of negotiation where ultimately it's going to be a guilty plea, maybe to something that's more realistic.

Steve Palmer [00:04:11]:

I don't know, maybe not. But the point is, we have a constitutional right in this country to look at the evidence against us, evaluate the case, and then make informed decisions. In fact, it's really difficult to make any informed decision without doing that. People have heard me say the magic words before. In order to enter a plea in any criminal case, you have to do it knowingly, intelligently, and voluntarily. What does that mean? If you don't have the evidence, if you haven't seen discovery, if you don't know what the case is yet against you completely, not just what it shows on the videotape on tv, but completely, then you're not doing it knowingly, intelligently and voluntarily. And that's not fair. We don't want a system like that that forces people to plead guilty to Raymond to these kind of things.

Steve Palmer [00:04:56]:

Now, I'm not talking about the speeding tickets because, by the way, speaking tickets, if you sign the waiver on the back, send in your payment, that's a guilty plea. But you're only going to get like $150 fine and court costs, maybe a couple points on your license. Even then, I would say if you're not sure what to do, talk to a lawyer, get it. I answer questions for free all the time. People call and say, I got a speeding ticket. What should I do? But my point is, if you go into court on a speeding ticket and plead guilty, the judge will take your plea because it's not that big a deal. He or she will, however, go through what's going on with you and explain, look, I'm going to fine you up to whatever. You're going to get some points.

Steve Palmer [00:05:30]:

If you didn't have insurance, that's a problem. So you're still going to get some information. So what's. Look, here's the thing. Don't make political theater out of stuff that or don't get outrage out of stuff that you don't necessarily understand. My guess is the person who pled not guilty likely will end up entering a guilty plea if the evidence is so strong that there is no choice. He's just going through the normal process, folks. So look, you got a question, you got a topic you want me to cover? Check us out.

Steve Palmer [00:05:58]:

Lawertalkpodcast.com off the record, on the air.