Hi, and welcome to the Awfully Quiet podcast. I have just wrapped filming with Lauren Curry from upfront, an organization on a mission to change what confidence and visibility looks like for women, and truly giving us the tools and the confidence, the power to. Go down the slide, which you will find out what that means.

In this interview, Lauren has this beautiful way of explaining things simply and the way she describes confidence, the way she brings to life, how being confident is not what it looks like. Being confident, stepping onto a stage, doing things that feel scary to us. It takes a lot out of us, but she's here with the advice, the tools, the experience to bring all of that to life in a way that makes it feel a lot less scary, a lot less daunting.

I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation. I loved having Lauren on the podcast. I hope you have your pen and paper to take some notes because I certainly have taken lots of notes. Thank you so much for tuning in. If you enjoy this episode, please send it to somebody who could use it too. Don't forget to leave five stars wherever you listen.

It helps the show reach more people like us who can, you know, use conversations like these. I truly loved having Lauren on the show. Thank you so much for tuning in, and without further ado, let's get into the interview.

[00:01:27] Hannah: Lauren, thank you so much for joining me today, and welcome to the Awfully Quiet Podcast.

[00:01:32] Lauren: Thank you for having me, Hannah. I'm

[00:01:33] Hannah: so

[00:01:34] Lauren: happy

[00:01:34] Hannah: to be here. I'm so pleased we get to record together. I have been following your journey and it's so nice to meet you almost in person. a question I ask every guest at the beginning, just to set the scene a little bit and to get to know you, is what's a quiet strength that has helped you in your career that might be a little bit underestimated, but has been powerful for you?

So,

[00:01:57] Lauren: I love this question, and I think I, I'm particularly drawn to this question because I know that I'm a person who is known for my energy. People see my energy and my extroversion first, and I move fast, and I work fast. But there definitely is many parts of me that are much quieter and slower and gentle that I don't get to talk about so often.

And I think the, the thing that quietly guides me and has done throughout my career is my commitment to reflection. So I, I journal, I am regularly having conversations with myself and the people around me about, you know, what's working, what's not working, why do we think that happened? What's the data telling us?

You know, I'm analyzing patterns and so my work comes from. With deep internal processing and taking time for that processing, not just the kind of external expression part that that people see. And I think what's underestimated about reflection is that it doesn't look very impressive from the outside.

Like there's no shiny Instagram post. It's not loud, it's not performative, it doesn't get me attention. But I do think it's a invaluable practice that helps me make sense of the work that I'm doing, what I'm learning, the systems that I'm trying to navigate. And you know, people assume that confidence comes from the big, loud moments of bravery or being the loudest voice, but I know that confidence also is about quiet moments and things that people do.

Privately. and to bring this to life for you, I have a little ritual that I have been doing for the whole of 2025. I've managed to stick to it, which is great, where every Friday I sit down with my partner Christopher, and he's my partner in all the things, life parenting business. And we have a template that we use in my sketchbook where we reflect on the week.

So we write down all the moves that we've made, what we've learned, what worked, what didn't work. And I think it's been an incredibly valuable practice for us both this year. And we always eat pancakes. Well, we, oh,

[00:04:22] Hannah: this is lovely. It's like habit sticking. It's like, you know, combining it with something that is really enjoyable.

But yeah, there is so much power in writing things down isn't there, and having a think about pausing just enough to reflect on the week.

[00:04:37] Lauren: What I like about it is I'm able to look back.

[00:04:40] Hannah: Mm. So I'm

[00:04:41] Lauren: to look through my notebooks and look at the Fridays for the past weeks. And something that it's really helped me with is recognizing progress.

Yeah. Which is, that's something that I find quite difficult. Notice the small wins and notice that it is working and things are happening and people are saying yes, because of course, our brains have this horrible negativity bias.

[00:05:05] Hannah: Yes, a hundred percent. Seeing the pattern, seeing the progress, making it a little bit more visible for ourselves too.

Love that. I'll try that out. Yeah.and you mentioned some of the things that I really wanna get into today, and I love that you said how a lot of being confident and being out loud and being present and visible starts with those quiet moments with ourselves. The reflective moments that are not shiny, that are not performative, that don't make it onto an Instagram grid, but they're so, so important for somebody like you to do their work.

And yeah, this is, this is essentially what I wanna get into today and starting with, confidence and what drew you into confidence. We often talk about confidence, but you have such a unique view on it, which I love. And I'm curious to understand what, first, you know, how you first started, what drew you into confidence, and if confidence for you has evolved over the years as your business has grown, as your community has exploded.

I wanna say. Has anything changed about the way you think about confidence?

[00:06:13] Lauren: Yeah, so I think the journey of me arriving to a place where I decided to focus on confidence is again, one that's seen the patterns over the years. So I've been an entrepreneur. For 17 years, I've built many different businesses and ventures, all kind of in and around social change.

Social progress. And the red thread throughout all of those businesses was me often being the only women in the room. Because I started my first business when I was 23 in 2008, so I was often the youngest person in the room. I am often the only person who didn't go to a fancy university, the only person with a regional accent.

And it was in 2015, I was on a stage at a conference and I was the only woman speaker in the lineup. And that was the day where I kind of made a decision together with my friend Amy, who was there kind of cheerleading me and the audience because I thought, I just can't bear this anymore. I don't understand why.

I'm the only woman on this stage, and I was naive, right? I had, I had believed the lie of meritocracy that we're all taught that if you work really hard, great things happen. Mm-hmm. And, you know, the best person for the job gets the job.

[00:07:34] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:07:34] Lauren: And I love, Tina Ross Eisenberg's advice of, you're allowed to complain three times and then you have to try and fix it.

I thought, I've really used up my quota of complaining. So that day I called out from the stage and said, you know, what is, where are all the women? And you know, we didn't have language for intersectionality, anti-racism, equality, the way that we do now. But I asked the question and I put a post-it note in the, on the mirror in the women's toilets that said, would you like to be on stage one day?

And so many people came to talk to me, tell me their stories. And that was when I realized like, wow, this is really complicated, is very intersectional. But I did hear this continual pattern of people saying, I would, that's not what people like me do. Mm-hmm. I don't go stage. That's for other people. And it occurred to me that in our professional lives, when we want to learn a new skill, there's normally quite a clear path for us to get there.

So we might read a book or go on a workshop or find a mentor, but when you want to learn to be comfortable on stage, you kind of just have to do it. And the first time you're up there, everybody's staring at you and you have to be eloquent and communicate very well. And so I thought, why don't we design a way to be on the stage without the scary bit, a bit like dipping your toes in the water.

And so that was what my business upfront started as. It was never intended to be a business. It was almost more a. Kinda illa campaign to raise awareness of the problem and to give people a way to get over their stage fright. And what that looked like was me having a big red sofa on stage with me whenever I gave talks and people could come and sit on the sofa.

They didn't need to speak, they just got to sit there, let their heart stop racing, let their breath. I love that. And just be, and just acclimatize. And of course the speaker would explain to the audience, these are my guests. This is why we're here, this is why we need to have this conversation. And it kinda snowballed into.

A little movement where we had lots of speakers at conferences all over the world, have the upfront couch on stage with them. And my mom made upfront cushion covers and we used to post the cushions to the different conferences so that the couch would have a little brand.and then that went on for a couple of years, just kind of on the side of my other businesses.

And then I would meet people who'd sat on the couch. They were like, oh my God, Lauren, this is just totally, I've done a 360. Like I want to do this. Do you have a book or a podcast or a course? And of course I didn't have any of those things 'cause I was building my other businesses. So when I looked out into the world to where to send these people, most of them are women.

I just saw a huge opportunity because essentially I saw Gary v, Tony Robbins, American Male. Take it till you make it, bro. Confidence advice.

[00:10:48] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:10:49] Lauren: Yeah. And then I saw vibrations and breath and energies and yoga and you know, both of those worlds have great things in them. Yeah. But they are not accessible.

For the people that I wanted to serve. And I couldn't see anything that was starting from a place of, okay, this is a systemic problem. This is a, we need to fix the system, not the women, which is now the great title of Laura Bat's book. so that's what I built. I started running workshops at weekends. I sold tickets on Eventbrite, like 30 pounds a ticket, and that was me designing a day, bringing together all of my experience in facilitation, design, improv, standup comedy.

I brought in my friends who were actors to do the kinda voice and body and breath piece, and it was just fantastic. People absolutely loved it. And over the years. It, it grew and grew until one day I, I realized I have to build an online version of this because only 20 people can fit in this room, and I'm only one person.

So how do we scale this? And of course, that online build has evolved into our flagship product, which is called the bond, BOND, which is the collective noun for a group of women. And now we've had 17,000 women from 24 time zones go through and graduate from the bond in the last five years. And it, and it changes people's lives.

So I've learned a huge amount about confidence, of course, and I still am, I think my definition of confidence remains the same in that it's about trusting yourself. That's how we define confidence upfront. But my understanding of where it comes from, how we activate it in ourselves, how the world treats confidence, confident women is constantly evolving is my business and the impact of the business.

So even though I talk about confidence all the time, I've just written a book about it, I build spaces for it. I'm still always meeting the edges of my own confidence. And right now, that kind of learning space for me is about learning to love and accept the fact that I am a tall poppy. So for your listeners who might not be familiar, tall poppy syndrome is an academic term that was coined to explain the phenomenon that we see.

That means when women become, the more successful a woman becomes, the less likable she is. And when women stand out from the crowd the way a tall poppy would, people try and cut her down. And so the, the more visible I have become. The more people are trying to cut me down. And it's not always direct, sometimes it's indirect.

And I, I am experiencing the backlash that women face when you show and share your success in public. And when you look at the data behind top Poppy syndrome, we know that it affects women the most. They're attacked, criticized, sabotaged. And it's a very clear message of, you know, we want you to succeed, but not too much.

You know, we want you to stand tall, but not too tall. Yeah. And last summer I got a tattoo of a tall pop on my arm as a reminder to myself of like, this is my gift and I must stay tall and stay visible even when it's uncomfortable. and I guess that's an example of the cost of confidence, which is the thing that I am still learning all the time that I don't think we talk about enough, which is.

There, there is a cost to being a confident woman, and it's the friendships that don't survive your confidence growth. It's the colleagues who are roll, roll their eyes or mock you behind your back. It's the moms and the sisters and aunties and the dads who preferred the version of you who had less confidence.

So like, absolutely confidence is joyful and energizing and so important, but it also disrupts and it also makes people uncomfortable and it, it can force the people around you to confront their own confidence in their own choices. So you're often moving through the world as a mirror and not everybody likes that.

Mm-hmm. And that can be quite difficult when you are the mirror. And that's something that I'm always learning and working through.

[00:15:31] Hannah: I, Lauren, I love that first of all, that the journey, behind building upfront, global, and. The way confidence stretches with you, right? It's like it's never the same thing that you're working on.

It is never the same struggle. You always stretch a little bit further out of your comfort zone and you say you're, you know, meeting new edges. I love that metaphor. and I, and I feel like it really resembles how. Confidence is not just the one thing, it's not just getting on stage in the first place.

It is what happens afterwards as well. And one thing I loved about the way you framed, you know, getting people onto the stage was that red couch and just like having them sit there and get. Acclimatized to the environment because it is so daunting, isn't it? To be on a stage in the first place, to have a big light in front of you to sit in front of a microphone, really scary, see all these people look at you, and to first and foremost not have to say anything at all, but just being there.

And this is always how, how I felt in corporate first and foremost when I went into my first couple of meetings. It's like just sitting there without saying anything. It already takes some energy. It already takes a little bit of effort. So, talk to me about this journey of getting acclimatized two situations that you are not comfortable with to begin with.

Was that something that came to you naturally? Like the first couple of times that you were on stage, did you feel, did you struggle with confidence in the first place or do you think that you've always been drawn to, you know, being in the spotlight or speaking in front of people it to begin with?

[00:17:07] Lauren: Yeah, so I think I, I'm a, I'm naturally extroverted and I naturally love attention and I love the spotlight. And if we'd had this conversation five years ago, I wouldn't have said those words out loud to you because that's something that I've felt shame around because where I grew up in the west coast of Scotland, there is a very strong, and I don't think this is unique to Scotland, I think it's universal, but it's, it's, it has a particular flavor in Scotland, which is this kind of narrative and cultural sense of being too big for your boots.

And that being a show off is the worst insult that could ever come your way. So I was naturally a very confident young girl. Loved performing, used to win awards for reciting poetry, loved doing my dance recitals on stage. But as I moved through the education system, I got very strong signals from the world and from my peers that that was not welcome.

You know, and I, I am. I can see how that path could have been different. For example, maybe if I'd been encouraged to get into drama and performing arts, you know, that might have made it better, but my reality was this is not welcome and I'm not going to be popular and liked. And so I started to hide my cleverness.

I remember my English teacher saying to my mom and dad at parents' night, she's pretending she doesn't know the answer. And that always sticks with me. Mm-hmm. And I often ask women in the bond, like, what's your earliest memory of hiding your cleverness? Most boys don't have that memory because it's a very, you know, we know that it's a very gendered bias.

So I think through school years there was, there was so much pressure to be liked and be popular that I definitely found it difficult to take up space and to be seen. And you know, I remember we had show and tell and I was just felt sick for days on end beforehand, didn't want to go, was trying to convince my mom to write a note so I didn't need to do it.

Then I think as I moved into university where I found. I found my calling in design. You know, I was really lucky to find the thing that I wanted to be when I was a grown up, when I was very little, and so I went off to art school, you know, on a mission to be the next. Steve Jobs was incredibly passionate about product design and service design, and I think that passion overtook any fears or nerves because I was so excited to learn and to share and to succeed, and then straight after university.

Started my first company, which again, I felt so passionate about. I need people to know this stuff. I need to get this message out there. And the way that you do that is standing on stage, is telling stories, is saying the same thing over and over again in a hundred different ways. And I did that because that's what the mission we were on required.

And I think I was naturally good at it and then did the work to become brilliant at it, which was constantly asking for feedback, constantly, you know, putting myself in stretch situations. One of which would be, I did standup comedy, seven years ago, and I did that really intentionally as an exercise to make me.

It's really scared, you know, I was terrified I'd you

[00:21:16] Hannah: terrified

[00:21:17] Lauren: of being of standup comedy. I thought I can stand on a stage in front of thousands of people and talk about my business, talk about entrepreneurship, leadership, confidence, you name it. I would, I would love that I could do it all day, but the idea of standing up in front of people to make them laugh, like makes, made me want to crawl into a hole and never return.

And it was an amazing experience. I did a course which I highly recommend, called Sustainable Standup, run by a brilliant woman called Belina Rafferty. And we went through the course. We had weekly classes in London, and then at the end we did a gig in a busy London pub. I was terrified, but I absolutely loved it and it was great and people laughed and I was funny and I was actually like, okay, I think I'm gonna do this.

I've got like a six to eight minute set that I can take round open mic nights. And then very quickly after that, I fell pregnant and had my son. So I've never quite got back to the standup comedy, but it's definitely something that I would like to return to

[00:22:21] Hannah: future. It's a tool in your toolbox. You have that.

It's incredible. And it also speaks to how many, how many skills bring in public speaking to life in the first place. As you said earlier, it's like, it's not just the, what you say, it's the, how you say it, it's the way you speak, the way your voice sounds. It's a lot of voice coaching. and then the way you show up there, there's a lot of skill to it and a lot of practice that goes into it.

And it's not just.the courage to stand up in the first place, but it's also building the skill, building the muscle, right?

[00:22:59] Lauren: No, I

[00:22:59] Hannah: think the key

[00:23:00] Lauren: words you used there, Hannah's practice, this is what we, the, the, the drum that we've beaten upfront so consistently is this is a practice. It's not something that you learn on a Tuesday and then you're done.

It's like you can't graduate confidence, you know, it's a lifelong journey that we're off on. That practice will evolve over time, but it's a practice and that it's up to you to design what that practice is and what that looks like. And so one of the practices that we encourage all of our bonders to start from day one is to stop saying, sorry, unnecessarily.

And that sounds simple on the surface, but I cannot stress to you enough how just that practice alone. Transforms people's lives and how the people around them respond to them and how they feel about themselves. Yeah. Because they have spent their whole life, and this is not, I really don't want your listeners to feel bad about this.

'cause there'll be people listening thinking, oh shit, this is me. I apologize. I say sorry all the time. I need you to be like, no, no, no, no, no. This is time to love yourself. It's time for self-compassion. The reason you say sorry all the time is because you grew up probably with a mom or a grandma or an auntie or a sister, or a teacher or a cousin who was also saying sorry all the time because the women on TV say sorry all the time because the women on the radio say sorry all the time.

Mm-hmm. You know, this is something that we have been taught from before We could speak. We've been watching women start their sentences with, sorry, say sorry for being hungry. Saying sorry for not being hungry. Saying sorry for being tired. Saying sorry for having an opinion. And in the corporate professional world, I mean, it's, it's.

Wild. It's a pandemic. It's it's wild. It's really bad. Yeah.

[00:24:52] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:24:53] Lauren: So it's what, what are those small moments that become

[00:24:56] Hannah: Yeah. Habits

[00:24:58] Lauren: and that's what forms your practice.

[00:25:00] Hannah: Yeah. And as you say, language is so important. It, most of the time it's not about, you know, being overly performative, out loud, extremely charismatic.

It's about the language that you use. It's about the words and, and, and how you bring that to life. And what I love about your story, and it's almost like the first of its kind on this podcast because, we often have, or we often share experiences where. You know, from early onward being told to be a little louder.

'cause obviously we're all fully quiet, so you need to speak up more, you need to take up more space, you need to be a little louder. So it feels like there's this constant, you know, telling children and, and young women growing up to be different to who they really are. Like for you it was, you know, you need to, you know, make yourself a little bit smaller.

or it's, you know, make yourself louder. And it feels like that journey to confidence often looks like being ourselves more intentionally and coming back to who we really are at our core, whether that is loud or quiet, but daring to do that. And it often feels like this massive job to do and it feels incredibly hard to do that.

And it sounds like you achieved to do that once you, you know, went to university and once you pursued some of the things that you felt really passionate about and that were able to bring you to life and also step into who you really are. I love that. It's

[00:26:26] Lauren: hard. It's so hard and I'm like so in awe of you and all your listeners and all of the women out here who are doing this work and who are committed to finding a way, finding their confidence.

[00:26:45] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:26:45] Lauren: and the story you tell about, you know, you being told to speak up more and be a bit more confident and Exactly. I got the opposite advice a bit loud. Take up a bit less space. One, I think that story illustrates perfectly what academics call the double bind, which is you can't win. So you're either gonna be told you're not confident enough or you're too confident.

And often it is the same people who tell you to be more confident that will then criticize and judge you when you do so. And as much as that is absolutely infuriating. It's also very liberating because my takeaway from that is, well, I'm gonna do what I want and what works for me. And also do that knowing that it is going to upset some people.

It's going to upset the people that want me to be quieter. That's fine. Because if I was quieter, they would be upset. I wasn't being led. You see? So you get stuck in this trap that you can't win. So ultimately, let's be ourselves and let's learn. You know, that's, I always talk about being upfront. It's like a way of being in the world's, a way of showing up in the world.

It's like, learn what being upfront looks and feels like for you. And often when I give keynotes, I ask the women in the room, I'll say, raise your hand if you've ever been told to speak up more that you're not confident enough. Raise your hand if you've ever been told you're too confident. And every single hand goes up.

Some people put both hands up 'cause they've been told both. Oh, and it's, it's. It's such a simple visual that highlights the whole problem that we are here to solve the systemic problem

[00:28:33] Hannah: mm-hmm. That we're here

[00:28:34] Lauren: to solve because collectively we can change cultures and systems and attitudes and narratives so that our granddaughters are not having this conversation.

[00:28:45] Hannah: Yeah. Oh, it, I love this.if, if we think about confidence as a, as a feeling mm-hmm. I think we often have, this expectation of what confidence feels like because we see it on stage. We see, we know what it looks like for somebody to be confident, and then we expect a certain feeling from, from being confident.

And I think we're often, disappointed when we find out that confidence on the out does not feel. What it looks like on the outside. What does confidence feel like to you? What is that feeling? Because I know that you're incredibly good at explaining complex things very simply, explaining complex things for kids and I would, I, I'm curious to understand how you would explain feeling confident maybe even to a child.

Thank

[00:29:32] Lauren: you. So I would, if I was explaining confidence to a child, I would say confidence is trying. Hmm. So it's not about being the best or knowing everything or feeling really Sure. It's about saying, I'm gonna give it a go. So it's like the tiny push inside you that says, go on. Then you know that feeling you get when you're just about to slide down a really big, scary shit.

Yeah. Or slide, I don't know, maybe it's, I wonder to shoot a Scottish word. I'm not sure. But, big scary slide.it's like that feeling in your tummy where you go. Yeah. Go.my, my son often says he's got horses in his tummy, which I think is Oh yeah. So it's like when the horses are there and you do it anyway.

Oh, I love that. I think that like, that's what it is. It's not a personality trait. It's not a mood, it's not a superpower. It's always choosing to try. Mm-hmm. That's what confident people do. They try. And someone recently asked me a brilliant question and it was a version of, you know, who are you? If you take away all the labels that society's given you, like mother, friend, sister, entrepreneur, founder, all, you know, all these different words that we can make sense of and help us, you know, identify ourselves in each other.

And I thought about it for so long and I just kept coming back to, I'm somebody that tries.

[00:31:05] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Lauren: That's my. That is my, it is my identity. It's who I am. And it's, it's something that I, that keeps me, it's almost like an anchor and it keeps me focused and grounded because even when things are really shit and things feel really hard, like we had a moment recently when I was panicking thinking, I can't do this.

I don't know how to figure this out. And I looked at my partner and said, are you not worried? And he was like, no, you always, you'll try.

[00:31:42] Hannah: Yeah. Oh yeah.

[00:31:44] Lauren: So, well,

[00:31:46] Hannah: and there, how much power in trying, because it isn't attached to an outcome, it doesn't mean, you know, you have to succeed. It has to be perfect, as you say, trying is.

It is, it, it is, there is a lot less of an expectation when it comes to, to just trying, and I could not love this metaphor more of like, it's the little horses that you feel before going down a big scary slide. It's like, it, it couldn't be truer. Like this is what it feels like to go on stage, to go into potentially even, you know, a work meeting that feels daunting, that, you know, gives you some anxiety that you don't know, you know quite how it's going to go for you.

And, that is the feeling. That is what confidence feels like. It's like that feeling, but doing it anyway, but trying without too much of an expectation as to how it's going to turn out.

[00:32:41] Lauren: Beautifully articulated. I think doing it anyway and not being attached to that outcome. Mm-hmm. Like if you can, if you can crack that, you're unstoppable, you can do anything.

[00:32:55] Hannah: I often when it, when it comes to like being on stage and seeing other people on stage, certainly when I see you on stage, it's like you get this sense, sense of oh wow, they're confident, they have it all figured out. They must, you know, always feel like, you know, whatever they do, whatever they touch, it turns out well.

So I really appreciate that you also share that sometimes you struggle with, you know, the, the next big mountain and the next big thing that you're trying. and I feel that is so refreshing and is and is something that just kind of shows that. Confidence isn't always the, the performing on stage.

It's not just the, you know, the out loud, the big moments, but it's also what happens in quiet and that relationship with yourself and you trying and you feeling quite, you know, anxious before going into a new situation. So I feel like that's part of the conversation that is so, so important to let people know, you know what, everybody feels like that.

Even the big people on stage, and I am sure you have seen and worked with incredible people who you've been able to witness the same thing. It's not just confidence all around, it's, it's like there are little moments of struggle and it's part of the game.

[00:34:07] Lauren: Totally. I could not agree more. And I think that's why it's so important to have these conversations because we do confuse confidence and performance.

It's like we look at someone on stage and think, wow, they've really got their shit together. And you know what? In that moment, they do. Mm-hmm. It's like they have practiced and rehearsed and because that's also the piece we miss out the practice and the rehearsal. It's like I recently did a TEDx talk and it's now on YouTube for people to watch, and I just shared it this morning before I came on this podcast to talk with you.

And I am so proud of my delivery. I've had multiple message from people to say it made them cry. And I'm like, yes. You know, I know that that talk is shit hot. And I have been practicing public speaking for nearly 20 years and I practiced that talk for hours and hours and hours. That's why. It's so good.

And at the same time, I can give that talk in the afternoon and smash it out the park, but come home and be trying to do homework with my kids and not feel confident at all.

[00:35:27] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:35:28] Lauren: And that's really normal. It's like some areas of our life we have, or confidence will be high. In other areas it will be low.

That's part of being a human being. Mm-hmm. I think the reason why we all have these moments where we look from the outside in and think, wow, she's really confident she's got all this together. And I think there's three things going on there. One is that we don't really understand how confidence works, which is of course.

Why you have this podcast? Why I, why I am building up front? Because we need people to understand, especially women, confidence isn't a fixed trait. It's not something that you have or you don't have. Everybody has moments, seasons, situations where their confidence drops. Even people who are the most endlessly self-assured, and there's a million examples, Michelle Obama or Oprah Winfrey, lady Gaga.

All of these people have spoken publicly about their self-doubt, their moments of anxiety, their moments of nerves. So when somebody looks confident on stage, we need, we forget that. They might feel totally different in their relationship with their friend group on a Monday morning the next time they get horses in their tummy.

No. And then the confidence and performance pieces in chess, and this comes up a lot for people who are extroverted because people can. Use confidence as a kind of armor, like a way of coping when you are navigating spaces that were not made for you. So someone might look confident because they've learned how to be confident in a way that everybody in the room will like and acknowledge and respond to.

So that means that they go to the panel event and do an amazing job, but they still have this knot in their tummy because like visibility is not the same as ease and speaking clearly and articulately is not the same as feeling safe. Mm-hmm. So a lot of people are performing competence because that's what their role requires.

It's what their industry or it's what the patriarchy is demanding. It's not because they feel deeply confident inside. And I think as you said, it's like that distance from the internal and the external. And then the third thing. Is that we compare our insights to other people's showreels. So social, social media is tricking us into thinking that confidence is shiny and sexy and curated, didn't glossy.

And we are, you know, still in our pajamas, haven't brushed our teeth thinking I don't know how to do half the tasks on my to-do list today. And meanwhile, we're watching somebody on Instagram, on the TED stage signing books. I mean, of course that's gonna make us feel bad because of course it is. But we need to remember like that's the confident version of themselves that they're choosing to show.

We are only getting to see like 2% of them. And so we make up stories about the rest of it. And so the result is we mistake performance for confidence all the time. And people who seem confident are often. Struggling with the same things as everyone else. They've just learned how to move with those feelings.

So what I often say is, you know, 'cause Bonders will come to the bond saying, help me get rid of my self-doubt. Help me get rid of my, you know, the anxiety I get before I have to give a talk. And I, I'll say no. Like, if you didn't have that self-doubt, if you didn't have those anxieties, I'd be worried about you.

Those things show me that you care. They show me you're stretching yourself outside your comfort zone and those things that, a very natural response. The thing to learn and the thing to focus on is how to reduce those things and get to a place where you always do the thing.

[00:39:32] Hannah: Mm.

[00:39:33] Lauren: Fight the nerves despite the horses in your tummy, whatever it might be.

You always go down the slide.

[00:39:42] Hannah: Amen.

[00:39:43] Lauren: I,

[00:39:45] Hannah: at this point a little term, we should get t-shirts. Always go down the slide. Always. Yeah. And, I, I love how you say, you know, the self-doubt is part of it. I feel a lot of self-doubt. Yeah, no, good. and as you say, in different areas of my life, because in corporate, I've, I've been in corporate for almost 10 years, so I feel a certain level of confidence when I walk into a room, when I, you know, do my job because I've done it for a while.

I've had, you know, succeed successes here and there. And so I feel like, you know, there is a certain credibility that comes with it, and I feel more confident. I go down, you know, massive slides in corporate, but then I sit in front of a microphone, I record a podcast, and I get those little horses every time I do that.

because it's something new. It's something that I still am practicing, that I'm still learning, and it's like a whole new level of growing outside my comfort zone. So it, it's that, you know, different thing where I'm suddenly. Thinking to myself, well, I feel anxious. I feel self-doubt. So it's, but it's doing it anyway.

Right? It's not letting it hold you back and, it's not, it's a lot messier than you'd expect. Yes. In your head and out in the real world. It's, it's not that confidence feels like, you know, suddenly you have permission and then everything flows from there and everything is just smooth. What I, what I also wanna talk to you about is the branding and the color.

You mentioned some of it upfront. You said you had, the, the, the red couch. Yes. Red is the color of your, of, of upfront global, the little cushions, the branding. How do some of these bold, strong, red, like colorful cues help us feel more confident? Is there anything in like the color that you use or how it makes you feel that.

That helps go down the slide in the first place. Yeah.

[00:41:39] Lauren: I love this question because I am, obsessed with red of course, as you already know. And at this time of year, I mean, we're recording this, it's December next week. And I always say to people, red is not just for Christmas, because I love that at Christmas time everyone gets a bit like, oh, maybe some red.

and I guess like I've always just had a very physical response to the color. It's like, red makes me feel. Fizzy. And when I started working online, which I know is very hard to believe, but for the last, for the first at least five years, I was too scared to show my face and too scared to use my name.

And so I did all of my blogging and social media under a pseudonym, which was Red Jotter jotter is like a Scottish word for notebook.

[00:42:35] Hannah: Ah,

[00:42:36] Lauren: okay. And my profile picture was a picture of a red fingernail for years.and of course, you know, things have evolved since then. And people will say to me, you know, I get marketers and brand people asking me like, what was the strategy and how come you do?

And it's, and it's kind of funny for me 'cause there was zero strategy, honestly. There was, I remember I was on my way to the airport to do my first internship. In service design. And I wanted to start a blog to document my journey. And I thought, right, I'm gonna call it Red Pencil or Red Jotter. And I remember I phoned my roommate and he was like, red pencil shit, call it Red Jotter.

And I was like, okay, red Jotter, it is.so I've read jotter.wordpress.com and for years, maybe not years, but for months, my mom was the only person who read it and she'd text me like, oh, you've got a spelling mistake or you've not blogged for a few days. How are you doing? And that blog really quickly became a kind of go to resource in the services design community.

And I remember I was at like a networking drinks and I met a founder of one of the service design agencies that I was a bit in awe of and just thought he was amazing. And he said to me, do you read the Red Jotter blog? And I was thinking, oh my God, he doesn't know that. That's me.

[00:43:57] Hannah: Oh wow.

[00:43:58] Lauren: That's when I had to have like a talk self and be like, right, you need to, yeah.

Get over yourself. But it took me a long time. It took me a really long time. And I think Red, red does a few things. It's, I think it's, as you say, it's just very bold. Like the message is, I am here. Look at me.

[00:44:17] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:44:18] Lauren: And so that is gives people permission to take up space.

[00:44:22] Hannah: Yeah.

[00:44:22] Lauren: Also creates energy. You know, I, I think one of the things I think really deeply about is the problems that we are trying to solve are complex and inherently difficult and political.

How do you still bring joy and hope and optimism to those conversations? And I think energy, positive energy, gorgeous excitement is one way to do that. And. Bonders and you know, folks who follow me and get my newsletter and listen to my podcast, they'll say, you know, I open the email, or I see the slide, or I see the red.

And it gives them like a, yeah, gives them a boost. A reminder of their, of their power and their community and their voice. And then of course, the more kind of traditional branding reason is that it makes us stand out. It makes upfront unforgettable. And for me personally, it makes me feel at home and my mission.

So it's like, you know, today I knew we were going to be on screen. You're gonna share photographs and videos of this conversation, so it's like, I'll choose to wear a red jumper because this is like me wearing my purpose. Outside beautiful

[00:45:37] Hannah: red fingernails, Anna Redling. I can see why the brand marketers come at you and like, oh, I see your strategy.

Yeah. Yeah. All coming together. Oh, I love that. and, and, you mentioned something that I feel is very important. It's like, it makes you feel like you are in your world. You are in your power. Right? It's your color, it's what you're being associated with. And, I would love that for so many people and for anyone you know, listening, how do you find that for yourself?

Because it isn't red for everyone, right? Sometimes it looks bold and red sometimes, you know, it can look so many different ways. How do you help people find their version of confidence, whether that be, you know, a color that they wear, or, something that they do a little ritual maybe, to feel like themselves and to feel like they're in their own world and in their power when they go out and do scary things.

[00:46:32] Lauren: So my work is all about unlearning.

[00:46:35] Hannah: Mm.

[00:46:36] Lauren: Rather than learning. So it's like you're unlearning all of the myths and all of the, if I'm allowed to swear, all of the bullshit that we, about what our confidence should look like. So know most of us have been told since we were little, that it's about being loud and being bold and being fearless.

Never having self-doubt, never feeling nervous, feel confident all the time. And when you strip all that away, confidence is always there. Like it's, it's always there underneath the version of yourself that you've been taught to be. So upfronts job is like to help you find that confidence that feels like yours, and it's not.

Confidence that you're borrowing or role playing. And that starts in really like small, almost mundane, ordinary moments. And I know that you will also have so many of these stories. 'cause I think the kinda introversion extroversion dynamic plays a really big role in this because we do live in a world that rewards extroversion.

We live in a world that is inherently biased towards extroversion, and that is not good for any of us. Like we had a recent woman in the Bond who was just so convinced that to get ahead in her career, she had to. Be an extra to learn how to perform extroversion. And so she tried to copy that big energy, big statements, and she was exhausted all the time, always feeling like she was wearing someone else's clothes.

So it's like, okay, let's work on something much quieter and gentler and slower speaking up in a meeting. Very intentionally doing that in your way, not performing, not pretending, just saying one clear thing in, in your way. And it started to work and she started to feel the difference. And it's not that she suddenly became extrovert or loud overnight, but she connected with the calm authority that she's always had upfront, just gave her permission.

Mm-hmm. Like double down on that and practice it because everybody's confidence has got a different texture. And that texture also changes depending on the confidence that you're in. So upfront job, we don't give people confidence. We help them recognize the confidence that they already have inside them, and then how to build a practice so that that confidence just keeps building and building and growing and growing.

[00:49:12] Hannah: I love that. it's like, it's not teaching somebody to do something. It's like, what do you need to strip away? What's the expectation that you need to remove in order to feel your own confidence? I, tell this story about going into a job interview early in my career, and I wanted to come across as confident and I bought this.

Bright yellow blazer too, because I felt like I needed like a bold color, a bright yellow blazer, and I couldn't have felt less like myself. Mm. I ended performed, that was a car crash job interview because I didn't feel like myself just because I dressed up as a version of myself pretending to be that person who, you know, rocks an interview in a bright yellow blazer.

But I just wasn't. And that is the what came to mind just now as you were talking about, you know, introverts who think that they need to perform extroversion or need to be anything that they're not in order to succeed, but it's about removing some of these expectations in order to really thrive And, yeah.

I love that you tried. Well, I tried, yeah. But yeah, yellow is not my,

Lauren, what I wanna, ask you about, it's, it's performance review season. Mm-hmm. In corporate, for anyone who's currently being told, you know what, you're doing a great job, but you just need to be a little bit more visible. You need to speak up more, you need to, you know, make yourself a little louder.

What would you tell them?

[00:50:42] Lauren: I think this is such an important question because this, you need to be more confident. Trope is the most weaponized piece of feedback that women receive and it links back to what we were talking about earlier around this double bind. So it's like, be more confident, but not that confident.

Speak up more, but don't make anybody uncomfortable. It's like essentially what they're asking for is not a thing that can exist. So in the bond, I always advise women to ask.to ask for specifics, like I think there's being really clear on what do you mean? Can you give me an example? What are you referring to?

And if the person can't name it, it's not feedback. It's, it's bias. And like I said before, often the same people who are giving you this feedback are the same ones that will get uncomfortable if you actually start to show up more confident. And it's because we live in a world that's got such a narrow fixed view of what confidence is.

Confident people look like this. Mm-hmm.

[00:51:50] Hannah: You know,

[00:51:51] Lauren: really extrovert, often male shoulder pads, power poses gazing into the distance. You know, when you Google confidence, you see it's, I always have it on one of my slides when I give keynotes. So you see all the. All the images of people in suits staring out of windows like that.

Very fixed narrow view of confidence becomes, especially in a corporate environment, becomes a tool to perpetuate bias and prejudice. So you wanna always ask for specifics, and then you want to consider the context. It's like if you are a woman in a male dominated environment, which many of our bonders are, you're probably staying quiet as a protection strategy.

So your lack of confidence might actually not be a lack of confidence. It's an intentional decision to not be as vocal as you would like to be. Mm. Because the culture does not allow vocal women to thrive. And then that's the conversation to have with the person who is giving you the feedback. And then there might be.

Opportunities in that conversation to learn and to translate the feedback into like, what is it you actually mean? Are they saying stop doing admin that you shouldn't be doing? Like, mm, stop apologizing. When you start your sentences, tell us what you need more. It's like those things are actually good, solid practices that will help you and that you can learn and you can start to practice.

I mean, of course, I would also say come and join a bond, because when you're surrounded by women who understand this dynamic and who have your back, you can then start to practice confidence on your own terms, and that's life changing. And so much of the work we do is about what does that mean in the context of cultures and organizations and teams that might not have a culture of psychological safety or a high culture of confidence?

How do you navigate that in a way that keeps your own confidence safe?

[00:53:57] Hannah: Yeah. Yeah. I really like that. And that is why I feel that this conversation is so important. This work is so important, to make more visible that there are many different ways to show up confidently in the workplace. It is not just that one tiny picture.

There are so many more, but it takes one to be one. And it, it takes somebody to role model it, to show it to others, to, you know, take the first, take the leap and, and go out and do it. And, yeah. And go down the slide. Yeah.Lauren, you've, you know, just published a book, which, I do wanna get to, as we wrap the interview and, it's all about explaining the patriarchy.

In a way that feels, you know, that a child understands. And I love the sentiment of that because I felt I, first and foremost, I feel like I need that too. Yeah. we, we, you, you know, the way you explained what confidence feels like we're so, so powerful. So I think we do need to do that much more often to explain complex things simply.

But talk to me about your new book. obviously where we can get it and how we can experience it, but also why it felt so important for you to bring something into the world that tackles this.

[00:55:15] Lauren: Yeah. Thank you. And here she is, my children's book.

[00:55:19] Hannah: I love the design. You're a branding pro.

[00:55:22] Lauren: Thank you. I mean, I, we hired an illustrator called Sarah Fountain.

Yeah.so the illustrations are not mine, but of course we had a, we had a say in the, we played a big part in the design and the, the finished product, the illustrations are beautiful, so she's called, Taylor Meets the Trick and she is a picture book for three to eight year olds and all the grownups secret

[00:55:47] Hannah: and the 34 year olds, like

[00:55:51] Lauren: the grownups don't tell anybody.

And it's all about, as you say. Teaching children about the patriarchy in a way that's very fun and light and playful. So in the story, the Patriarchy is called The Trick. And this is an idea that I learned in from Robert Webb, the actor in the comedian. So he wrote a great book, how Not to Be a Boy, but 10 years ago, and in that book he was trying to explain the patriarchy to his young daughter.

And because she was like four, she couldn't, of course, it's a, it's a hard word to say. Yeah. And it sounded like she was saying trick. And he said, well that's kinda smart. 'cause it is a trick. Like it's tricking us into thinking that there's rules for boys and rules for girls. And at that time my son was.

Two, when I read that book, and he had long blonde, curly hair and was constantly being mistaken for a girl, and he would get upset about that. And when we tried to explain the patriarchy, you know, a two year old's not gonna get that. So me and my partner started to use the language of the trick, and I was just absolutely blown away by how quickly my son grasped it by how easier it made conversations with his grandparents and relatives around moments where we're all tricked, we're all being tricked all the time.

And so I started to develop it with my upfront community and get lots of feedback from people with children of all different ages. And when children have got language to talk about the trick. So when, when someone calls Atlas a girl, he'll be like, huh, they've been tricked. Like it takes away all, any shame or negativity.

He had to have an appointment with the school nurse last week. And I was like, how was the nurse? What did she say? And he was like, you've been tricked because the nurse was a man. And I'm like, dammit. And, and when we watch, when we movie at the end of the movie, we'll be like, okay, where did we see the trick?

And we watched Jurassic Park recently, and my son was like, well, all of the people who drove helicopters were men. And I hadn't even noticed.we read Jungle Book recently, and I was like, I don't think I'm enjoying this because it's full of the trick. Can you see where the trick is? Mm-hmm. And he saw it.

Every single character in the Jungle Book is a boy. So it just, it, it gives. Children and family's language can become part of your daily dinner conversation. Mm-hmm. First trick today, where did we see the trick?

[00:58:24] Hannah: Mm-hmm.

[00:58:25] Lauren: So in the story, the Taylor goes to school and his teacher's tricked because she thinks he's a girl and the daddy has to educate.

Heart and tailor as to what the trick is. And it's a little black creature that jumps into your tummy and jumps into your heart and makes you think that there's rules for boys and rules for girls when of course there isn't any. And then at the back of the book, there is like lots of, resources for children and parents who have, you know, conversation guides and reflection questions.

And we, I've self-published it, so I need all of y'all to rally around me and buy this book and buy a copy for your local school, your local library, because there's no institution backing this. I'm backing myself. I've invested hell of a lot of money to get this book into the world and we've sold nearly 700 copies in two months, which I'm super proud of.

And I'm also. Being really transparent on my Instagram about how much it costs, how much money we're making, how it all works, hopefully to encourage more women to self-publish their own books. Yeah, that is Taylor meets the trick and if you go to, Amazon or Ingram Spark, or find me on Instagram or LinkedIn.

All the links are there.

[00:59:43] Hannah: Yeah. We'll drop it all into the description and show notes. I love this idea and I love the simplicity of language that you're giving us. Not, you know, not just to speak with children, but I'm also thinking it's, it's, it's, it's such lovely, simple language. Oh, you've been tricked and it happens to every one of us.

And it's such a beautiful sentiment that brings to life a concept that is often very political. It's often shut down in the first instance, so it gives us language to talk about something. In a very non-offensive, very simple and loving way. I love that. Well, Lauren, I loved having you on. thank you so much for joining me.

Thank you so much for bringing your bright red energy and our enthusiasm and, you know, showing up in a way that also shows us, you know, there's vulnerability there, there is struggle there, and, showing some of the behind the scenes and making it, you know, so genuine, so, you know, comfortable to talk about.

[01:00:41] Lauren: Oh, thank you so much, Hannah. I'm really grateful for the opportunity.

[01:00:45] Hannah: Thank you very much.