Well,

Paul, it's so nice to see you and in your new environment new

your new home in Maui. So I'm really happy for you to show his

greener pastures. How have you been doing?

You know, I've been good. I mean, it's been a crazy year.

And it was a crazy year for everybody. You know, I was

working in Costa Rica doing a retreat when New York City went

into lockdown last March. And I ended up on Maui by just because

I had a friend who said, Here is a place you can stay and I ended

up loving it here. And now I live here. So it was an

interesting year of great.

Wow, that's quite transformational and changing I

can imagine. Now, you also just published the third book of your

beyond the known trilogy, and I love them all. But to keep our

listeners up to speed, can you I don't know if it's possible.

summarize the first two books before we delve into the

kingdom.

I'll try. I think the kingdom is released in August, I just did

the audio book. So I just read it through when I was in the

booth, because when I'm channeling the books, I retain

maybe a third of the information. But the first book

of the trilogy was called realization. And it was really

the teaching of what the guides call the upper room, which they

say is a level of consciousness that is coexistent to ours, or a

level of vibration that we can align to. So they're giving us

the instructions on aligning to the upper room. The second book

was alchemy. And that really is the Book about lifting things to

the upper room and releasing the things within us that stop us

from aligning to that level of vibration or consciousness or as

they like to say, agreement. And it's really a book about I

think, why we keep going up and down this spectrum of, of

emotional reality, you know, and not to judge that. But they say,

Well, if you want to stay in the upper room, there are ways to do

it. And here's the work of doing that. The kingdom, which is the

third book is really about a binding there, I think and

beginning to align to what they call the kingdom and they say

the kingdom is the realization of the inherent divine in all

manifestation. And you know, in all of these books, there have

been these attunements, or claims that they build on. And

that's been the truth with all the books that preceded them.

But one of the things they've been saying somewhat incessantly

for a wireless that humanity's only real problem is what they

call our denial of the Divine. And that's not about religion,

but they say that denial of the source of all things, which is

the source of everything they say, and different levels of, of

tone, or vibration, or, or chord or articulation is their word.

So they're really working with that now how to move us beyond

what they call the denial of the Divine, to a realization of the

inherent divine, which they say is in all things.

Now, a lot of people have some bad experiences with religion,

and also with the word God. And God was certainly mentioned in

your book, and I think you probably are one of them. We're

not so religiously attuned in the past. So how do you see God

differently than the bearded man on the cloud?

You know, I don't know that I brought this down. Truthfully. I

mean, I'm, I'm I'm the channel I take dictation. But what they've

said is, there is one note, or one tone being played in the

entire universe, which they call God, they say that's the

infrastructure of everything seen or imagined. And that that

one tone they say is an articulation or manifestation is

all things. So the substance of all things is this one sound,

this one tone, they call it the word sometimes. And they say the

word is the action of the Creator. So you know, when they

say things like and when it's one of the attunements in the

book God is God is God is it's the remembrance of the one

source they've never talked about an old man on the cloud. I

mean, I was raised an atheist, you know, and My mom would say

an agnostic, maybe that's more true. But I was raised to

believe that this stuff was for stupid people. And that was a

very comfortable place for me to rest in until a series of events

happened that, you know, began to open me up to the possibility

of something much more. So I'm not uncomfortable with the idea.

I think in some ways, you know, you can people can say, the

universe and God, you know, you know, God is the universe, and

it only matters what you call it, you know. But in some ways,

I think what the guides are also doing is reclaiming language

that I think has been misappropriated by religion, and

sort of bring it into a place that I hope is experiential, for

the reader, because the books are really energetic

transmissions that work with the reader, they're less

intellectual exercises, in possibilities, then, a way of

sort of tapping in and experiencing this, I think, if

that hadn't been the case, I would have stopped channeling

this time ago.

Now I can imagine that this sound of the Divine is in the

teachings because there is a energetic transmission that

happens. I mean, you just read a page. And something, even if you

don't really comprehend all the words, something just changes

inside, which is one of the fascinating things about your

books. But one thing I'm wondering is, you know, the

upper room and the kingdom are the same. Do I understand this

right, or?

i? Well, I think I think the kingdom is, is is moved into

through the upper room, the upper room is I have the guide

say this, they say everything exists in octaves, you know, our

reality is an octave high loads and low notes, everything they

say is tone. And they say the upper room is the octave above

the one that we've been operating in. And so the upper

room, Mr. Shift a level of vibration and consciousness to

be able to align there. But they say the upper room is also vast.

So I think that the upper they've used I think, a couple

of times, the ideas interchangeably, but I think the

kingdom is far more the experience of the upper room. So

I think that there's a difference, perhaps between

getting off the elevator, the 10th floor, and walking in the

vestibule and say, Hey, wow, this is the 10th floor, look out

the window, it's beautiful, then really experiencing yourself at

that level of consciousness.

So the kingdom is living through the consciousness of the upper

room? Where does the ego come in there? Because a lot of people

are struggling, especially right now with that part of them?

Well, I

am I mean, I think we all are. The guides say they don't talk

about ego much, I think they've used the word like three times

in their books, but they do talk about the personality structure.

And the personality structure is who we think we are. And the

personality structure they say knows itself in history. That's

all I can know, you know, what it's been told, what it's been

experienced, what one should aspire to, you know, so, so much

of what we think we are what we want or should want or born out

of this collective structure. And this is all sort of that

tethering to the lower octave, this is the stuff that exists

there. So, when they speak about moving to the upper room, they

talked about, you know, I mean, they do this through a series of

attunements. But, you know, one of the claims is I am free, I am

free, I am free, and that they say is spoken by the true self,

not the personality self, the attunements are all spoken at

the level of they say the mon ad or the Christ itself or the true

self. Because they say the true self is always free, in only Oh

itself is less hence the true self that really is what

expresses in what they call the upper room. So they say that the

personality self is appropriated there. It's you know, it's it's

absorbed there. There's a need for it. If you still like your

coffee, black, you like your coffee, black, if you Prefer

Blondes to Burnett's that to you, you know you can have what

you want. You're not saying we don't have that, but I do think

we stop experiencing ourselves as the personality structure,

which is finite, you know, we understand it. It's a part of

who we are, but it's not the expression. So it's kind of like

what they would say and they said this, I think it was in

alchemy. You know, we've been in a masquerade and we've mistaken

who we are for the mask we've worn and they say the masks are

Coming off now, and most of that's frightening to everybody,

you know, whether it's happening at the level of personality or

the level of the collective, you know, things aren't what they we

thought they were. And so we're having to go through this

experience of releasing the mask. And that's a lot of what

the guides are teaching is how that happens and how to how to

work with it. I don't find it a comfortable process in the least

I wish my guides someday were writing happy self help books on

how to better apartment or something like that, but that's

not what they teach. And I'm along for the ride with this.

You know, I don't I have this new book due in November 1. I

had they haven't started the dictation yet. I haven't been

given a title. I know nothing. I'm just saying where I hope to

God, you know, it's happened nine times, I guess it will

happen again, you know, not would that they'll deliberate.

What's next? Because they hear we are mind for them.

So what do you find uncomfortable about this

process?

Well, I mean, what the guides have said is, you know, if

you've got a body buried in the basement, eventually it's going

to stink up the whole house. And we all have parts of ourselves

we prefer not to look at or not to be in confrontation with. And

you know, very simple teaching of the guides is what your damn

dams your back, or who you who you put in darkness calls you to

the darkness. And what I think we're having to deal with now

are both of those things, the parts of ourselves that we've

denied, because we have to bring those parts of ourselves to the

light, or to God or whatever you want to call it, because that's

how it's healed. And also within our world. Now, I think people

get confused here. And I think it's about dredging stuff up to

point fingers and to blame. And I think, you know, really,

nothing gets healed until it's first seen, you don't get to

bypass this stuff. You don't get to say, Well, it wasn't so bad.

When I was a kid, maybe it was really awful. And that's it, no,

in order to move beyond it, not to get stuck there and not to

drag everybody into the dark with you with your, your pain.

But I think this is the process. And it was very much the process

of the book of alchemy, and I went through it as they were

teaching it. And it's not that it's over. I suspect this stuff

happens in layers. But I think what we're going through

individually as people is also sort of being out pictured in

the hole, I think we can see it in the world, too, you know,

and, you know, it's, it's an opportunity, I think everything

is an opportunity. And then the guides keep stressing this, if

we begin to perceive everything as opportunity, we can work with

it. Well, if we shift into victimhood, we don't work with

it very well, we go back into the old bias and paradigm of

separation, which is how we were raised, and in fact, sort of

indoctrinated to believe that we're separate from one another.

And consequently, the guide says, you know, we bought that

lie so fully, that we're separate from each other, that

we believe ourselves to be separate from sources as well,

which they say is can never be true, can be our experience. But

that doesn't make it true.

But this has been going on since the existence of human mankind,

or just in the last 2000 years.

I don't know. I mean, they've said that their teaching is

older than what we know. And it's always been present in

different forms. And that the seed of the teaching can be

found in all religions. And you know, I don't know if that's

true or not, and it's what they say. But what they're saying is

that humanity is at a juncture in the very first book, which

was called I Am the word, which was dictated in 2009. They said,

humanity is at a time of reckoning, and a reckoning is a

facing of oneself and all of one's creations. And everything

that's been created in fear needs to be re known or

recreated in a higher way. And that that's what we're going

through now. And it's what we've been blocked, when we will

continue to go through it. And, you know, I understand this is

how we are preserving humanity by going through this process,

because we really can't continue on the trajectory that we've

been on. without, you know, probably self annihilation. You

know, we build bombs that are big enough to do that. And, you

know, the guides have said, the idea that you can build bombs,

so that you can feel safe is insane, because bombs are

actually meant to go off. I mean, that's the purpose of

them. And if you think that one day, that doesn't happen, you're

probably you know, not telling yourself the truth.

I mean, not only bombs, but also guns, for sure. But one of those

things that I find so challenging right now is people

ending cluding myself is certainly this, you know, this

temptation to go into fear or control? You know, there are

these two temptations that you want to control all your

circumstances because you only trust yourself. And if you can,

then you go into fear place. One of the guys saying about it

that,

I don't know. I mean, I know it's early in the morning where

I am now I'm on my first cup of coffee, I know if I'm gonna

channel for you in this on this broadcast. But what what the

guides say about beneath I'm going to ask anything, you want

to decide what's right for you. And you do it at the level of

personality, which gives you the answers that you have 65 and the

personalities seeks to survive at the cost of all other things

at the cost of all other things. It doesn't understand the self

as a turtle, no one's brother is oneself nor no one's brother as

one self, which is in fact a higher truth, which is in fact,

a higher truth. Higher the ability to move to the higher

self in a way to know the self in a new way as prescribed, is

prescribed, instructed and instructed in and available to

all of you and available to all of you should you wish or should

you wish to. We don't tell people what to do we open door

that no authorization, we open a door that they may walk through

if they wish or choice, your choice. Either I'm in control or

unconscious behind. Either I'm in control or going to be harmed

as a template if fear is a template of fear and the action

of fear. And the action of fear is and always has been is and

always has been to claim more fear, to claim more fear, any

choice, you're making fear. Any choice you make. And fear costs

more for you to cause more fear to you're actually aligning,

you're actually aligning to a current vibration to a current

of vibration that is the phenomenon that is the denial of

the Divine. That is what fear is that is what fear is we are

teaching realization, we are teaching you realization to know

who you are to know who you are in the face of change in the

face of change and beyond circumstances, power to and be

on circumstances that you would give great power to period. Just

sit period.

Makes a lot of sense. Thank you. But you certainly also talk with

the guides talk a lot about love is the way to the upper room, if

no choice.

Yeah, but you know, they don't talk about love as much as I

would think they would. I mean, it's certainly the books. But

they do talk about acceptance. And they say, you know, it's

like they said, Who you put in darkness, what you put in

darkness calls you to the darkness. So they are teaching

about forgiveness and forgiveness not in Well, that

didn't really matter. It was okay, you can punch me in the

nose again, if you want to, but in an awareness of how people

act in fear and in a belief in separation. And so you know,

there's an exercise in one of the older books book of mastery,

where they had people go into a cave, and in that cave was the

one person they never wanted to see again. And the exercise was

to walk that person out of the cave and right. And the guides

explained it that said you're the one that put them in

darkness and they call you to that darkness. So if you want to

release yourself, you have to release them. It's not about

pandering to some idea of being sanctimonious or forgiving. We

do these things so that we're untied from so that we're not

you know, kept in fear, or whatever you want to call it.

Those that is love. So no just said yes. MacKillop. It's an act

of love to divine to reconcile the divine where the divine has

been ignored, ignored, period, period.

Do you feel that you the teachings have brought you to a

completely different place? I mean, you are I know 30% you

only retained but then you're certainly going back to the

teachings hasn't changed you.

Yeah, you know, but I don't feel that I'm if there isn't there.

I'm not gonna say that I'm there there. But yeah, absolutely. It

has. I'm living in an extraordinarily different life

than I would have ever imagined I would be living. I was a

college teacher for 25 years. And I assumed I would do that

until I was too old to do that. I'm not a spiritual teacher. I'm

certainly not a guru. I'm a man who sits in a chair and operates

as a radio and I do this when I work as a channel and I do this

when I work as a psychic. You know, I am a medium for the

living. So I can't tell you what you're good at and claris thing

But if Claire is living in the next town and you haven't spoken

in two years, I can probably hear her pretty well and give

you very accurate information. And so that's my audibility. And

I show up for that. But because I show up for this, and I show

up for this often when I don't want to, but I'm committed to

the work, I have to go through it to, so I don't get the free

pass. So if the guides are saying, Okay, everybody get

ready to deal with some more of your crap. I'm there, you know,

probably, and I'm not going to say I'm at the front of the

line, I may be hiding at the back, but I'm in line to along

with everybody else. I don't think that this is it's not feel

good woowoo stuff. This is sort of mysticism, I suspect if it's

anything. And honestly, you know, when I question and I just

go, Well, you know what, Paul, no matter how articulate you

might be, you can't sit back in a chair with your eyes closed

and dictate nine books that don't require any editing at

all, which is with these things, I think they're in an average

book, there may be three words change because I mispronounce

them. Or I was talking so fast that I overstepped and dropped a

word because you can hear it because I whisper in repeats, we

can usually catch them. And then more. So wonderful.

transcriptionist has gotten very adept at that. But that's been

the agreement. And I've been fortunate to work with

publishers who've agreed to that, you know, we don't go back

and change things. It's scary for me with every book because I

know when I'm in a dictation session, that's what it's going

to be in the world. I don't get to go back and say, let's just

trim that paragraph or take out that word, which can't do it.

Okay, now, the guides might say, and this is not in the book, and

then I go, Oh, thank God. But you know, the last book, The

kingdom was dictated because I done maybe the last five books

in front of live audiences, you know, all of it was done, either

online in front of audiences, mostly in workshops. And because

of COVID, and everybody being locked down, the last book was

dictated to some of it online in workshops, but most of it to a

small group that assembled to be witness to the teachings because

I can't channel without somebody listening. I won't do it. First

Book, that was channeled without my having the ability to work

with the attunements in a public setting, so that I understood

them personally, myself, which gives me comfort, I don't think

it makes a difference in the dictation at all. So anyway,

that's that. So has it changed me? Yeah, I'm still doing that.

But I mean, you probably have a good idea of what it is, you

know, to be in the upper room, when you spend probably some

time there,

when I'm channeling Sure. I've had periods of it here. I did

not get into this kind of stuff. Because things were so rosy. You

know, I'm not one of those people. And, you know, I am very

grateful for the path that has led me here don't question that.

I don't I accept that fully. But, you know, like everybody

else, I've got my stuff. And my challenges. And the more I work

with the guides, teaching us to attend to them, the better off I

am. You know, and I'm often resistant to doing that. But I

know that it works when I do it. So pretty. So they chose you for

a reason. I'm sure. I see. Yeah. I mean, they've talked some

about that, or I asked, you know, I think there was a bit of

both happening here. for whatever reasons, I seem to be

sort of built for this adept where this you know, if I was

six foot five, maybe I'd be adept at being a basketball

player, you know, but this is sort of how I seem to be wired.

And I think it's it's a really interesting use of my abilities.

You know, it's not what I thought I would be doing, you

know, I started opening up spiritually and psychically when

I was 25. And that really basically just shattered my

world because it's, you know, I had a whole other path that I

expected to be on than the one that I found myself on. And that

continues to be the case.

But the reason why I'm asking is because you as one who gets this

first hand knowledge, probably know how to transcend fear, and

how to transcend this small self because you probably have been

vacillating up and down. Many times.

Yes and No, but you know, But I'm radio to think of the Think

of me that like. So when I'm channeling, I'm just keeping up

with it. I'm keeping up with the dictation it's like reading 1000

fortune cookies, one after the other after the other. Without

even I don't even know what the sentence is going to be I hear

phrase sprays, sprays, sprays, spray, and so I'm just keeping

up. Yeah, I retain about a third, I retain the larger

gestures of the work when I channel. But I don't necessarily

or something that's a detail that was surprising to me. But

I'm most effective when I'm actually just taking the

dictation and not trying to understand or listen, because

then I'm really out of the way, you know, and we're out of the

way I am, the more effective I am. And the more out of the way

I am, the less that I retain. So the first time that I generally

really experience a book is when I'm sitting and doing the audio

book and I have to read it aloud, again, read it aloud from

start to finish. And I go Oh, boy. And that's you know how I'm

taught as well. So I'm taught in the energy of this, there's no

question. And do I have access to everything I teach?

Absolutely. But honestly, if you were the channel, it would be

easier. Because I got, let's see what he had to say there. I'm

going to do that, Oh, that's great. I'll do that, you know,

and there's still a little piece of me always that's who the hell

am I doing this. And, and I accept that. And maybe that's

also part of the reason I'm doing this, I really do not have

an ego investment in this role that I'm in, you know, I see

myself. If you ever go like to court, you see the stenographer,

you know, typing away in the front. I'm a stenographer for

this. I don't think they're terribly grand position to be.

But it's kind of taking dictation mouse.

And that's unfiltered. So you definitely don't have any

filters around that. You know, you have in your kingdom book,

one beautiful, I don't know what you want to call it, if it's an

agreement, or if it's an affirmation, but it's basically

when you do feel fear coming up, the guide says, or when the

separation consciousness coming up, a guide says, this choose to

say, on this day, I choose to align every aspect of my being

to the choices before me that any choice I may make will be

the alignment with my true self. And I just love that. I mean,

this is just something very, very powerful. And I think the

books are full of these really simple but very powerful ways of

shifting the energy raising the octave.

That's what they do. It's an energetic fusion, I think far

more so than, than intellectual one.

What would you recommend for people and how to start, let's

say they are intrigued by the idea of the true self, the upper

room, the kingdom, but they don't know how to begin?

Well, I think people go to the book that calls to them, there's

nine of them. But the guides are very good teachers. And they say

that they teach in a one room schoolhouse, and you can enter

the teaching anywhere, and they will teach you and they do they

say sponsor or mentor, the students of their work. So you

know, some people enter it at the most recent book, it happens

frequently, then they find themselves going back, some

people go back to the very first book time, the word or the first

book of a trilogy, whether it's the book of mastery or

realization, because the trilogies are complete, but you

know, there's a lot of information at this point, there

are 1000s and 1000s and 1000s, of pages of channeling. And I

just trust that people go where they're LED.

And there is no one way to get there, to the upper room, the

kingdom there.

They tell you how to do it. If you want to work with the upper

room, two chains, you can start with realization, catch the

reader up and out to me and then catch the waiter repping enemy

kingdom. The basis for all of the books in some ways, I think

in the upper room. The preparatory work for the upper

room teachings are in the books that preceded them. They give it

a teaching that is in sequence. And they I think sometimes the

DNA of all of the books are in the very first book, and that

they've been unpacking that teaching about the inherent

divine ever since. But I don't know that that's true. And

again, I don't know what's next either. I mean, again, there's

another book that should be completed in a few months. I'm

going oh my god, is this going to happen?

Well, do we all have a choice to go to the kingdom? Or is that

something that? No, we can also refuse? Yeah, we have free will.

They honor free will do what you want, you know, and they've

never said and they say if anybody ever tells you, it's my

way of the highway, go go go run in the other direction. I don't

think it works that way. But we have free will, the guides talk

about the braiding of the will the will of the personality,

self, and Divine Will, and that they begin to operate in union

or unison. And then at that level, you begin to move into

what they call knowing or you know, clear cognizance, you're

just, you're just operating from knowing you're not trying to

figure it out anymore. Because your choices are made just like

that, quote, that you. In the book, your choices are made at

that level of awareness. We have choice, yes. And there are

consequences for the choices. All of us no choice.

But I mean, also choosing to stay with a personality self as

a consequence of possibly greater suffering.

You're going to learn for the personality self, it's what's

here for it's nothing wrong with it. It's not something

necessarily to be overcome, I don't think I just think the

problem has been that we've confused it with who we really

are. But you know, you can learn that fire is dangerous by

putting your hand in it. But you don't. You don't have to learn

that way. You understand? Yeah. So we have choice. And we can

learn however, we wish. I do trust at this point. And it's

not always easy. That, you know, the circumstances that I have in

my life are what are here to teach me. It's really that

simple. You know, it's like it's all opportunity, if I'm willing

to look at it that way.

And are the guides just as a final question, are the guides,

hopeful for humanity or the neutral regards,

I've been finding them pretty helpful. They've actually said

humanity's made a choice. And this is going to that's the

Collective Soul of humanity, that collective humanity. And a

higher level is said yes, to progressing forward. And that

some of what we're dealing with now is how we have to do that.

They need to be sort of unmade or racing in order to be made

new. And that's a lot of their teaching, how things are made

new, racing rearticulated in what they call the upper room,

or the higher octave.

And that also has probably to do, how we deal with nature,

animals,

those things, were responsible for what we create that includes

physical planet that we're in stewardship of and seem to not

do a very good job of stewarding.

So the challenge right now, for most of us is just keeping

forward moving forward with this choice and not getting pulled

into the darkness by being righteous or angry or any of

those things

where say self righteousness is always the small self for the

personality structure. You know, it's it's a convenient trap, and

I fall into it, but I'm pretty good at catching myself when I

do it because it gets more and more uncomfortable when I

Well, thank you so much, Paul, for this enlightening hour

again, or half an hour. And I wish you all the best for this

new book and the book in November that it all comes

through as it needs to be and I appreciate so much that you are

letting yourself be that vehicle for all this wisdom to come

through. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.