Hi and welcome to the Animal Welfare Junction. This is your host Dr. G and our music is written and produced by Mike Sullivan. Today's guest is Kathleen Wood, senior staff attorney for the Animal Legal Defense Fund. Thank you so much for being here and welcome to the Junction.

Thank you so much for having me.

So can you start by letting our audience know who you are and what brought you to where you are today?

Sure. So as you mentioned, my name is Kathleen Wood. I, um, started out actually studying art history at UCLA and was volunteering at a shelter that was a last stop shelter for animals who were having a hard time being adopted. And a lot of time that was because of abuse because they had physical or behavioral issues as a result. And that really inspired me to go into the area of animal rights and animal welfare. I had already been thinking about going to law school and started researching the field of animal law and discovered this entire area of really passionate people. Um, and just decided that's, that's what I wanted to do with my life. So, um, during law school, I worked with the Animal Welfare Institute and the Animal Legal Defense Fund. And then as soon as I graduated, I came to work for the Animal Legal Defense Fund and I've been here ever since.

I think it's really amazing that a lot of other guests that I have had, they have started with completely different things in their life, right? And then they have had that aha moment in animal welfare that has guided them to like, what has become their true passion. So what we're here to discuss is this really cool document that is the animal protection ranking report, and you have a big part in it. So how can you explain to our audience what this report is?

Yeah. Um, so this Since 2006, the Animal Legal Defense Fund has been publishing this report, and it ranks each state and territory's animal protection laws, and compares the various strengths and weaknesses of them. And so I took over the report in 2017, and did my first overhaul of the contents and scoring metrics the next year in 2018, and we actually just did another overhaul in, uh, for our 2023 rankings. So each year, usually in January or February, we'll publish the report and it goes through all the legislation that's been passed the previous year and redoes our ranking, and we publish a comprehensive report that goes into detail about our methodology, what has changed, what states have improved, and, uh, kind of who is ranking where in terms of their animal protection laws.

So based on this methodology, what categories are states ranked or, or graded on?

Yeah, um, so we have 20 different categories, and these correspond to what we call our compendiums. So every state and territory has their own compendium that we maintain separately. That's also available on our website. And that is essentially just a very long document that has the full text of all of the animal protection laws divided into these 20 different categories. And so they're divided into substantive crimes. So, you know, what are the laws that prohibit general abuse and neglect, the laws that prohibit sexual assault of animals, animal fighting, and so on, and then we also look at laws that provide procedures for enforcing those crimes, so, uh, you know, who can seize an animal and when, whether the animal can be ordered forfeited, before or after the person's convicted, and then, we also have e other laws including, um, reporting laws, you know, can veterinarians or social service workers report suspected animal cruelty, what can civilians do to intervene if they witness animal cruelty, and so all of those are divided into those 20 different categories.

So this report, it helps us figure out what states are doing, are doing what, but does it help in any other ways?

Yeah, so it helps to identify what states are doing well and also where the gaps are. Um, because when you start looking at it on this macro level, you can very clearly see where some major gaps are. For example, West Virginia is now the only state that doesn't have a law prohibiting sexual assault of animals. so that's a very clear area that we can target for future legislation. it also, the report also helps because it can help direct legislators and advocates to particularly strong laws that can be used as models. So if you notice that in your state, uh, there's You know, there's not really a comprehensive law defining what level of minimum care an animal has to have. Um, you know, what kind of shelter they must be provided with, what kind of food, water, etc. Then you can look to the laws. Um, of the states in our top five, like Oregon and Maine, which have really strong comprehensive laws addressing animal neglect, and you can use those as models when looking, uh, to improve your own state's laws.

Based on the, on the rankings for last year, what are, what are the best five states?

The top five states are, uh, Oregon, Maine, Illinois, Massachusetts, and Colorado.

And what would you say overall is needed? I mean, I imagine that it's like the majority of the, of the laws are strong, but what are the things that make these states, you know, go up and down in rankings?

So it's really a huge combination of things. So our rankings look at, we have 76 different questions, um, closed ended questions, with Kind of multiple choice answers. They each have a different point system assigned to them. And so for each of the 56 jurisdictions, the 50 states and 6 inhabited territories, we go through and compare those 4200 data points. Um, so there are a lot of different ways that states can go up and down in our rankings.

Yeah, well, because I was thinking, like, you know, We were, we were discussing a little bit ago about how Connecticut made such a huge jump. So what does it, was this a state, like what, what were the changes that they went through to have increased so much?

Yeah, in 2023, Connecticut jumped 20 ranks, from 31st to 11th place, and that's because they passed a really comprehensive bill that did a number of things. One, it helped to, close a loophole that was in their sexual assault of animals laws. It imposed a mandatory five year possession ban for people who have been convicted of animal cruelty, um, prohibiting them from residing with or owning or possessing an animal for five years, and it also required veterinarians to report suspected animal cruelty and granted them immunity from civil suit for doing that.

I was going to say, like, Ohio, it didn't used to have a strong reporting law and several years ago, I actually had the opportunity to present proponent testimony for the reporting law because it is something that is very important. You know, especially not just in protecting the animals, but also protecting people, right? That's the whole idea of the of the cross reporting. And I know that Ohio has been kind of creeping up slowly but surely, and it has improved. What? What has? What has Ohio done? To get it from where it was that I think it was in the 40s several years ago, up to like now 18.

Yeah, and that cross reporting law that you're referring to was a huge part of that. Um, so a couple of years ago, they passed a law that not only required veterinarians to report suspected cruelty, but also, social services workers, because of the link between animal cruelty and domestic violence and child abuse, social service workers are kind of uniquely positioned to be able to witness that animal cruelty going on behind closed doors, and need to be empowered and to report it. And Ohio was actually one of the first states to pass a law requiring social service workers to report. They've passed a number of other laws, like, permitting companion animals to be included in protection orders. And just last year, they passed a law classifying animal cruelty as a offense of violence.

One of the things that, looking at the different categories and such, we have about Post conviction possession bans, and I think that that is something that is super important because I work with a lot of animal hoarding cases, for example, and then there will be, they'll either do one or not do one, but they're not very strong, but also I'm thinking about the case of Indianapolis Animal Services that the two employees got fired because they were trying to do a background check,

Yeah,

it just happened within the last month, I believe they were trying to do background checks to find for animal cruelty convictions, and they were fired because they, the facility said that it was a discriminatory act against adoptions. But then I looked, and this is in Indiana, which has mandatory possession bans.

So, yeah, they have possession bans linked to probation, so as long as a person's on probation, um, then they have a possession ban, yeah.

Yeah, so I thought that it was kind of, kind of interesting that they have, they have something saying that people, you know, people may have possession bans, but then these employees were fired because they, trying to uphold it.

Yeah. No, that's, that is very interesting. We actually have our model laws that are available on our website that, uh, I helped to draft and one of the provisions is to make available a list of people with possession bans, um, to, agencies that Like animal shelters that are adopting out animals, um, to ensure that there is some kind of cross checking in place. Um, you know, this wouldn't be any kind of public registry that's posted online, but just those, uh, you know, pet stores and shelters that have animals for adoption to make sure that, um, we can make sure that these possession bans aren't completely toothless, that they, they're being enforced.

Right. And I think, you know, like there may be some people out there that don't necessarily care about the animals, but they do care about what happens to people. And I feel like some of these stronger laws are going to benefit the link, right?

Yeah, um, so, historically, you know, the link has been used to kind of get people to care. Um, if, you know, saying, well, if you don't care about the animals in the home, um, at least you should care about the people. And. You know, in a sense, yes, that that is true. It does get people to care about these issues. Um, but I think the link is so much more important because of the other ways that it intersects with animal cruelty. So, um, for example, it helps to explain why people abuse animals because it's the same underlying factors that go into other antisocial behaviors like domestic violence, like harm against humans. Um, so it's important for us to look at the link through that lens because. We, ideally, the criminal justice system would be used to address those underlying issues, and prevent people from then committing animal cruelty or committing other antisocial acts.

I think that that's one of the important parts as far as with the cross reporting. And one of the reasons why I wanted proponent to give proponent testimony was the fact that sometimes as veterinarians we are the first ones to see abuse, right? Like the humans being abused, the children abuse or the elderly abuse is not necessarily seen, but we can find that animal abuse and then do something about it.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, uh, animal cruelty is now being tracked by the FBI and the National Incident Based Reporting System, um, NIBRS, and because of that, we can see that the vast majority of animal cruelty is going on in the home, um, and it's not being witnessed by a lot of outsiders, so veterinarians are uniquely positioned to be able to identify those signs and symptoms of animal cruelty, and as a result, um, you know, are uniquely positioned to also witness overlapping forms of violence, domestic violence, familial violence, um, You know, there was one study that said that the three professions most likely to encounter battered women were hairdressers, dentists, and veterinarians.

That is really interesting. And I can see it because those are going to be the, yeah, the places where they're going to go. And, and even, I, I think of them as professions that are used to talking to people and being almost like, Like little therapists for that

exactly that you know, get people talking about their, their health, their one health, the health of and safety of the home. Absolutely.

So one of the categories that I don't think a lot of people are familiar with is the bond and forfeit. Yeah, I mean, what that is about because I think that it is really important and I think that there are some states that are way behind.

Yeah. So this was 1 of the new trends that we identified last year in our report. So bond or forfeit refers to a legal procedure. So, to back up, um, when an animal is seized pursuant to a cruelty investigation, they're kind of put in this legal limbo, because they're still technically the property of the owner, of the defendant who is being accused of animal cruelty or neglect, but they're in the physical custody of the local shelter or agency that's holding them pending the criminal investigation and trial, and that can go on for months or years at a time. And in the meantime, the care for that animal is really expensive. It's not just, you know, the food, water and shelter. It's also veterinary care. And depending on how badly the animal was abused and neglected, that could be really extensive surgeries, rehabilitative care, behavioral rehabilitation. And then especially for hoarding situations like you were talking about. You might have hundreds of animals being seized, and those costs add up really quickly. And all this time, the defendant is still the legal owner. They should have the responsibility of financially providing for that animal's care. So the bond or forfeit mechanism is designed to reallocate those costs where they rightfully belong with the animal's owner. Usually states that in these laws that a few weeks or a month after the initial seizure, there's a, uh, there's a hearing, and at that hearing, the courts will order either the defendant has to post a bond to cover those costs of care, usually for 30 days at a time, and then it renews up until the point of trial. Or if they're unable or unwilling to pay for the animal's care, then they have to forfeit the animal. And that means that the shelter can adopt out the animal, uh, to a new loving home and they are no longer on the hook for those ongoing costs. And it also gets the animal out of the shelter because we know that, you know, even in the best, most well resourced shelter, uh, it's going to be psychologically hard and re traumatizing for an animal to be there for months or years at a time.

I was talking to one of my friends from H. S. U. S. About a case that they had several years ago where these animals were stuck in limbo for like two years because the state that they were, uh, that they seized the animals from did not have this kind of law. So these animals and there were pregnant dogs. There were animals that were born in while they were in the shelter. And As you say, like shelters, they, the majority of them do their best, but it's not a long term place for animals. Right. It's, it's supposed to be

designed to be short term. Absolutely.

Yeah. So that's one of the things that I worry about is just not the, not the physical health, but the mental health of these animals while they're in captivity.

Yeah, absolutely.

So the other thing is protection orders. That's something that I think has, we've been talking about more and more as far as including because animals. are seen as property. So realistically, whoever claims to be the owner, whoever is spending the money or whoever is doing whatever is the one that legally would be allowed to keep the property. But we are learning to move from that, right?

Yeah, so there are, I believe, 40 states now that explicitly allow courts to order animals to be included in protection orders. And about half of those, including Ohio, it's limited to just companion animals, which is unfortunate because You know, there are plenty of cases of people being attached to their farmed animals or even abusers threatening to harm farmed animals as a way to control the, the human victim in their life. So, um, we would really love to see that be expanded to all species. But. At the very least, in those 40 states, you can, when petitioning for a domestic violence protection order, include your animal so that you can be awarded sole custody of the animal and prevent the abuser from, from harming them. But then there's the other issue of where do you go? There's most shelters, most domestic violence shelters don't accept animals that aren't service animals. And that fortunately is changing, but it's, it's a really slow process.

I guess at least though, having the, the ability to have a protection order may encourage somebody to leave knowing that legally the animal will not be sent back, right?

Yeah, because, well we know that about a third to a half of women in DV situations report having delayed their escape out of fear for their animal. That's one of the most common kind of psychological means of coercion in a domestic violence relationship is, you know, if you leave me, I'm going to kill your dog.

And speaking of psychological evaluations, that's another thing that I, that you guys measure, right, as category, like the places that require psychological evaluations. Yeah. I think about the importance of it in like hoarding cases again, just how they're not being managed properly because they're given fees. They're given fines. The animals are being taken away, but nothing is being done to prevent this from happening again. And then just people in general that may be intentionally causing harm, like they're not being evaluated. And so after they serve their time, they're allowed to go out and, and do it again.

Yeah. And there are so many psychological disorders that have been linked to animal cruelty, some of them explicitly, you know, animal cruelty is one of the DSM 5's symptoms of a conduct disorder, which is a behavioral disorder in juveniles. Um, it's also included in, um, you know, sexual assault of animals. It's included in, uh, paraphilia disorder. There are a number of different diagnostic tools that will specifically identify animal cruelty as one of the symptoms of that disorder. Psychological evaluations are so important because they can help to identify underlying factors that went into the animal cruelty offense, um, whether that is a specific disorder, um, substance abuse, or anything like that, and that information can help the court tailor a sentence to specifically address underlying causes, and hopefully prevent the person from harming the animal. animal in the future or even a human in the future.

Yeah, I think about how, you know, prisons and jails should be about rehabilitation because the majority of these individuals are eventually going to be let out.

Oh, absolutely. Especially with animal cruelty. Um, you know, it's such a low level offense. You have to be operating under the assumption that they're going to be released. Um, you know, and so we want to make sure that when people are released into society, they're less likely, not more likely to, to recidivate.

Yeah, I worked with a case recently where a man beat his dog with a rock, killed it, and he was, uh, charged with felony animal cruelty, but he just got three months in prison, right? Because the, here in Ohio, the most that they can get anyway is 12 months, but he only got three months in prison, and there is, there was no psychological evaluation, there was no intention to rehabilitate or anything. So he's going to have a possession ban, I want to say, for three years. So, first of all, who is enforcing that possession ban? And, you know, who is protecting other animals and who is protecting the people in his life? Because this specific individual had been in prison for seven years for assaulting a human. So, you know, he came out of jail and clearly did not was not rehabilitated, and then he did this to a dog. So, you know, we need to do better.

Yeah, and one of the problems is that we really don't have a lot of data on, rehabilitative efforts for people who have committed animal cruelty or even just any kind of sentencing for animal cruelty. We don't have a lot of data showing what sentences are being, uh, assigned to offenders and what the outcome is. You know, do those people recidivate is. Incarceration, a deterrent, uh, specific deterrent is, um, you know, diversion programs or counseling. Are these things actually being used and are they helping? Um, and so I would really love to have more information on, you know, what is actually being used across the country and then be able to use that to help advise courts on what are the most effective sentences because right now we have, we have educated guesses based on the data that's available

We talked about the best five states. What are the worst five states as of last year? And what what could they be doing better?

So the worst five states were Kentucky, South Carolina, Idaho, Alabama, and North Dakota. Um, and there, there are a number of things that they can be doing better. One of the most basic things is the definition of the word animal. Um, you know, you would think that that would be a, a pretty, intuitive definition. One, um, but for example, South Carolina is ranked 47, um, and they exclude invertebrates, so octopi, and their, their primary animal cruelty law excludes all poultry, all fowl, birds. Um, so they're just simply not protected under animal cruelty laws. And then, for example, Kentucky excludes all cold blooded animals, um, which is just a huge category of animals that are just simply not protected. Uh, and so that's one of the most basic ways, um, they could work to expand animal protection laws. Um, another big one is what we've been talking about, forfeiture and possession bans. So the lowest ranked state, North Dakota, doesn't have a law requiring animals to be forfeited after the person's been convicted of cruelty. So you could have a person convicted of torturing their dog. And at the end of the trial, the court orders the dog to go back to that person. I mean, I'm, it's completely within the court's discretion. And they don't have any laws specifically addressing possession bans, uh, so, you know, theoretically, yes, the court could order a possession ban as a condition of probation, but once probation ends, which is usually, you know, max two years, three years, um, after that, there's, there's no way to impose a ban on, um, residing with or owning animals.

So not to pick on West Virginia, but. Since they don't have, uh, laws against sexual assault against animals, why are they not as, you know, that low?

Yeah, um, that's a great question. I, so West Virginia, yes, that is a huge gap in terms of their laws. Um, you know, they are the only state and one of three, there's two territories that don't have laws prohibiting sexual assault of animals, Northern Mariana Islands and American Samoa. So one of three jurisdictions in the entire U. S. that, that doesn't prohibit that. So you would expect them to be very low, but you also have to consider the fact that we evaluate so many different categories of animal protection laws in our rankings. So West Virginia does have some other protections in their laws that help to compensate for their utter lack of laws prohibiting sexual assault of animals. For example, they do have mandatory possession bans for any species that include any species of animals. They also have a law addressing cross reporting that's requires elder abuse and child abuse to be reported, um, that also requires social services to report suspected animal cruelty and provides immunity to them for doing so. So even though they have this huge gap in their laws when it comes to prohibiting sexual assault of animals, they, they have some other, uh, provisions that help compensate that and help to pad their score.

So come on West Virginia, you have one law and then you can make a huge jump. You can be so good. Um, I'm, I'm looking at the, at the report and it says about that a new category that was added was the emergency rescue and relief. So what is that about?

Yeah. So previously we had something similar. We had a category that we call dogs and hot cars, which was a little bit of a misnomer, but it, you know, included what we call good Samaritan laws that allow people to rescue animals, um, from, you know, Vehicles, unattended vehicles. So if you're at the mall and you see a dog sitting in a car and it's, you know, 80 degrees outside and the dog is in serious distress, um, in those 14 states, you can call the police and then break in and rescue the animal. And there are several other states that have laws that allow civilians to intervene in cruelty and neglect situations outside of that very narrow category. So, for example, in Ohio, uh, there's a law which states that, um, if you witness an animal being neglected, I think it's 12 hours, um, you know, without being provided food, water, care. Um, you can. Enter upon somebody's property and provide the animal with the necessary care. And so those kinds of laws are now all encompassed in that emergency rescue category.

Something that I think it's relatively new and that I would love to see everywhere, but it's starting to grow is the courtroom animal advocate program. So can you talk a little bit about that?

Yeah, um, so Courtroom Animal Advocate Program, or CAAP, it's laws that allow a third party advocate to be present in the courtroom, specifically advocating for the animal's interests or for the interests of justice. Um, and so currently only two states have these CAAP laws, um, and that's Connecticut and Maine. So Connecticut passed their law in 2016, and it was called Desmond's Law. And that came out of a really heartbreaking case in which a man separated from his girlfriend after attempting to strangle her, so this was a link related case, um, she ended up giving Desmond to a shelter, um, because she was having trouble finding housing, I believe, with her dog, and he went to the shelter and adopted Desmond. Kept him locked in the bathroom, um, for, you know, all hours of the day. He fed him one cup of rice per day. And during the day he was litigating child custody against his ex girlfriend in the courts and coming home and beating Desmond out of his rage at night. Um, and eventually he did strangle and kill Desmond. And what really gripped people's attention was that he was Awarded a diversion program that he wasn't technically eligible for, um, because he had already gotten diversion for strangling his girlfriend. Um, and so if there had been somebody in that courtroom advocating for Desmond's interests, you know, they might have pointed out that this person isn't actually eligible for diversion for this crime, and gotten a different result. So that case led to the first ever Courtroom Animal Advocate Program, and It's been hugely successful. So it's, uh, lawyers and supervised law students. There's a program through the University of Connecticut where, um, law students can participate in a clinic and help the court to identify issues facing those animals, um, that are still in custody and be a voice for the animals who have, who are unfortunately deceased. So one example that arose, I think, in 2018, was a case involving dog fighting and, um, one of the dogs who had been seized was pregnant and gave birth to a litter of puppies while in custody. And the owner demanded those puppies back because they weren't part of the search warrant. Um, and he said, you know, look, these puppies have never been abused. You've no right to hold my property. Um, and they were particularly valuable because they were from this, you know, esteemed dogfighting bloodline. And, The advocate was able to successfully argue, um, for those puppies and argue that they should not be returned to their owner, that they, you know, did belong in, properly in custody, and, um, eventually they were adopted out, um, But it wasn't anyone's job other than the advocate to really advocate for them because they weren't the victims of the animal cruelty crime. So it wasn't really the prosecutor or the state's job to be in court advocating for them. And so that's why it's so important to have that third party voice in the courtroom for those, you know, for those animals that would otherwise fall through the cracks.

Yeah, I think it's important, and I hope that more states start picking up on it, because it's the same as like a child advocate, right, in court, like we're looking, you have somebody that knows about that, that victim or potential victim to advocate for them, because sometimes I also think that sometimes attorneys and prosecutors lose sight of what's happening, right, like they just want to close a case, or they just want to You know, it is a make deals and everything else that may not be in the best interest of the animal. So having somebody that's there just for that animal can make a huge difference.

Yeah. And I mean, if you have a prosecutor who is hugely passionate about animal issues. You know, they might be going above and beyond their job description to help those animal victims. Like, I'm not discounting the many prosecutors who are out there fighting for animal victims every day. Um, but it's not technically their job. Their job is to advocate for the interests of justice and society generally. Um, you know, they're, they're representing the people, literally, they, they're for the people. So, you know, it's important that we have somebody who's job it is to speak for animals and to make sure that the, that person can get their voice heard in the courtroom. So these advocates can help to summarize, you know, what's going on with the animals, what their current conditions are, and they can also, provide victim impact statements on sentencing, um, which is another huge issue that I know you're very familiar with. I think you've written a victim impact statement for an animal victim in the past, um, and because animals can't speak for themselves, you know, that's why we need to have people like you and have, like, advocates who can provide, be that voice in the legal system.

Yeah, I really hope that it, that it takes on, and I think with more animal law programs, that maybe we're, we're going to start seeing a change on that, so that animals can have their voice heard. So ag gag laws, I don't think that a lot of people understand what these things are because to me personally, I thought that this was common sense that somebody seeing animal cruelty could report it, but that's not really the case. So can you explain to our audience what an ag gag law is?

Yeah, so an ag gag law is kind of a nickname for anti whistleblower laws. There are a handful of states that have passed these laws that will specifically prohibit somebody who is working in an agricultural industry, who witnesses animal cruelty from reporting that animal cruelty. Um, which is, a number of these laws have been challenged by the Animal Legal Defense Fund and other coalition partners and have been found to be unconstitutional violations of the freedom of speech. Um, so workers, you know, as part of their First Amendment rights, they have the ability to report crimes that they're witnessing in their work environment, um, and, these laws are trying to prevent whistleblowers.

Yeah, and it just, again, like, it doesn't make sense. Like, you're witnessing somebody breaking the law, you would think that you would get in trouble if you don't report it, but it's opposite.

Yeah, exactly. Um, you know, and they're often kind of shrouded in these, um, You know, privacy concerns or industry secrets. We can't, we can't have our workers disclosing our industry secrets. Well, if your industry secrets are breaking the law, um, then you don't have any right to, to tell somebody that, that they can't report you. So there was actually one state in which they passed a law requiring, uh, whistleblowers to report suspected animal cruelty within the first 24 hours. which sounds great, um, but if you think about it, it sometimes takes months of gathering undercover footage to build a case because you have to be able to demonstrate that it's a policy of the corporation, um, and it's not just a one off employee and, uh, so that law was actually intended to target undercover investigators from building cases against these larger corporations. I

see. So then they would have to like say immediately what they were seeing and then the the organization or whatever would have a chance to do something.

Then they would just say, Oh, well, you know, that was a one off situation. That was just this one bad apple, bad actor. Um, and we fired this employee and now everything's okay. Uh, when in reality, it might be an ongoing systematic abuse, or it might be the policy of the corporation that the workers abuse the animals in this way.

So can the rankings help states improve or see what they can improve and get information from other states on how to do better?

Absolutely. Um, that's, you know, one of the primary goals of this entire report is to help states see where the gaps are in their laws, um, and then also to highlight those states that are doing well and can serve as examples. Um, so if Folks listening, go to our website, there's an interactive map and you can click on your state and download the compendium that I was talking about earlier, which is the full text of all the laws that are divided into those 20 different categories. Um, and you can kind of skim through and see what You know, here's where my law is particularly strong. Here's where we simply don't have any law addressing cross reporting or veterinary reporting. And you can see very clearly where the gaps are, and then look to some of the higher ranking states to see where models can be found.

And does the Animal Legal Defense Fund provide resources like directly or work with organizations and advocates to help improve these laws?

Absolutely. Yeah. Um, people are always welcome to contact me. I can provide, so my email address is kmwood at ALDF. org. Uh, but I work with advocates and legislators and, you know, other, and just members of the public, uh, to help you. I can provide a list of, you know, here's where your state is doing particularly well, here's where they could need, um, additional help, here are some ideas, um, and help point to some model legislation that would, um, improve those states laws.

Excellent. Well, thank you so much for spending the time and explaining all of this. It's really important because we talk about, you know, as veterinarians, for instance, like helping the individual animals, but to actually affect change, we have to make changes in the laws. So whether we like politics or not, whether we like the law or not, we have to kind of get involved to, to make changes that are actually going to help protect animals and society.

Well, I am always happy to speak with people more, um, about the report or about any issues in your particular state. Um, so please do feel free to contact me and, um, thank you so much for, for having me. I really appreciate it.

Awesome. Well, yes, thank you for all the information that you have given us and for everybody who's listening. Thank you for listening and thank you for caring.