Our friend today is Michelle Grant.

She is the founder of the Great Full.

and we've had a conversation, around this idea of leadership.

Uh, I feel very highly unqualified to, to talk about it in any great detail.

I feel a lot of the time my leadership style has been winging it.

Very much sensing, uh, and feeling the way forward, but at the same

time not really getting, what is it?

What does, what, is this actual leadership or is this just

like wandering through the wilderness with a bunch of mates?

would say you're not alone with wondering what is

leadership and am I doing it?

I think we all.

Continually question that no matter how much we work on the topic, I, I

wish we had this conversation sooner 'cause we could have

changed the title of this to what

and am I a leader?

That's, I think we're gonna reword the title to this.

This is what's gonna come out in the newsletter.

But, um, mm-hmm.

For, for the people listening, um, who haven't met you before, uh, please

maybe just share a bit more about what the Great Full is, what you do, and,

um, maybe a bit of why, what you, how you got to where you, you are now,

and, um, you know, maybe the, a little bit of a background story to you.

Sure.

Well, it's lovely to be here again.

Um, I worked kind of extensively with both of you for a period of time,

so it feels nice to be back here and to see some familiar names as well.

I'm originally from Australia, but I'm now based in Switzerland.

Um, and a few years ago I founded this organization, which is called

the Great Full, and it really emerged out of a long time working around

this topic of sustainability, which is maybe as nebulous as the topic of

leadership, but effectively just trying to work out how can we create a better

future for humans on this planet.

And in my like years and years working in this topic, I kept, um.

You know, coming back to this one place, which was, wow, actually

food is connected to all of these challenges we're talking about,

whether it's climate change or biodiversity loss or education,

there was always this food lens.

So I actually spent a lot of time then working on topics

of food and sustainability.

One, and in the course of that work, what I kept coming back to kind

of underneath everything was wow.

Whether we're able to, you know, really make an impact or create change

in the way that we are hoping to with these different projects that

we are working on in the end, or comes down to how we are showing up.

As human beings and how we're able to collaborate with each

other or not in the process.

And so that kind of started this deeper reflection process of me of like,

you know, going under the iceberg of there's all these challenges we're

facing on the surface, but if we keep digging deeper, what is it that

we need to change to really like, move the needle on these things?

And it just come, came back to like, well, what we need to change a human

beings and what does it mean actually to be humans in a change process?

And, um, to essentially start to question, well then actually,

yeah, what does leadership mean?

If it's really all about bringing.

About positive change.

Um, and so I started to transition out of my role at the university running

a research center on food systems and into creating this space, which is

called the Great Full, which really opens up an opportunity for us to come

together to talk about not only the challenges that we are facing in terms

of sustainability and regeneration, but how do we wanna create change and what

does that look like to actually step into that in a way that's authentic and

also fulfilling for ourselves because it's a sector which has so much burnout.

A lot of people who are really motivated, purpose driven, wanna make

a positive impact and just feel so overwhelmed with all that there is to do

for like nothing's ever enough and kind of work so much and end up burning out.

So I really wanted to, um.

Yeah, offer a space to understand leadership, understand what wellbeing

has to do with our contribution, and what are ways that we can,

you know, build a more just and generative future on the planet,

but maybe one that's also joyful.

How can we kind of have fun in the process?

And so what the Great Full has evolved into is a platform that offers

leadership coaching and training programs, um, and a community of

change makers who really have this space to come together and in a

very practical way, explore what does it mean for me and what does

it mean for us collectively to be a part in creating this change.

So there's also a podcast and some other, activities that I do as a part

of this platform, but the core of it is really these training programs

in the community, and they are specifically, um, focused for women who

work in the spaces of sustainability, regeneration, and food systems.

So it's, it's quite a specific niche that I'm working with,

You're like a couple of years into the full-time on the

Great Full, is that right?

yeah,

exactly.

I had a kind of three year transition process where I kind of hired a new

director at the university and, and stayed in to run some of the programs,

but then started tr transitioning out as I built up the offerings and

the platform and I'm more of a like.

Build a crash pad, check for parachutes, and then jump kind

of person, not like a jump.

And the parachute will open person.

So that's also why I did it that way.

Mm-hmm.

when I first, when we first chatted, I think you had, you finished your book

then, but I know you that was mm-hmm.

You, you were part-time on the Great Full that was like, um, a focus.

You definitely had a foot, a foot in two worlds and, but you'd already

started to put your ideas out there, build your brand, build your confidence

around, I guess being more visible and sharing some of these ideas.

Although your focus then was people in the food and sustainability

sector, wasn't it specifically?

Yeah, I mean maybe that's a good point to depart from is kind of

that point when I realized I have to leave this perfectly good job

actually at the university mm-hmm.

And do something as kind of uncharted and disorienting

as starting a new thing.

Um, and I'd been working in this, um, in building up this center on Food

and sustainability, and we were trying to look at the role like research

and education and outreach can play in, in, you know, providing some

solutions to these big challenges.

And I just started to notice myself that I was starting to

feel a little bit depleted.

I was starting to feel a little bit skeptical.

I was starting to not have as many like, creative ideas and excitement

around things to bring to life.

And that kind of led me in this process of like really questioning,

okay, what's, what's going on here?

Um, is it the right place for you still?

And at the same time, I decided to start doing my, um,

advanced yoga teacher training.

So I'd done the earlier one a few years before and I thought, you know,

that's such a beautiful space to reconnect with yourself and try and

get back to what's really important.

And so I started that program and I remember coming back

from my, um, yoga teachers.

Um, retreat center in Spain after doing one of these trainings and, you know,

working in a university, you spend 99.9% of the time in your own mind.

Like everything is intellectual and everything that's valued

is cognitive and intellectual.

And so I think that really led me to a place of being quite disconnected

from my own emotions, from my own body, from, you know, all the

other things that are actually important and make a human life.

And so this was this beautiful opportunity in an old farm in the

middle of nowhere in Spain to kind of reconnect all those things, my

body, my emotions, um, you know, relating in different ways to people.

And at the end of that week, I just felt so incredibly energized again.

And I was able then from that place to kind of look very seriously at,

hmm,

something obviously needs to change here.

And I remember looking out the plane window on the way home and

just having this real deep sense of knowing that you have to leave now.

This is what you have to do.

Even though I hadn't worked out.

What I wanted to do, and as is always the way I had a deep

sense of knowing in my body.

But then my brain came in and started to question everything.

So it was, you know, another year before I actually had the courage

to say, no, something has to change.

And I had this sense of what was emerging.

Like I want to understand better how we actually create change.

I wanna play a role in supporting, you know, people to understand what

their role is and what leadership looks like in a different way.

I wanna, you know, do more around wellbeing.

But there were all these like pieces floating around, like clouds in the sky.

And I couldn't kind of work out like, what's the string

that pulls it all together?

What's the, this all comes in.

Um, and I still hadn't worked that out when I left the university.

But the other thing I knew I wanted to do was write this book, which

was bring all this, um, knowledge that I'd had the chance to be

connected to at the university about food systems, but bring it into a

format that was more digestible.

So I actually wrote a cookbook but wove through a lot of content about

food and change in our role in it.

And I sort of thought, oh, I'll work part-time at the university.

I'll part-time work on writing this book and I'll part-time

start this new organization.

And you can imagine how that, how that unfolded.

I ended up like split in 6 million different places and for one year

I just kind of spun around all these different things but didn't

really get traction on any of them.

Um, and so then I decided, okay, let's just focus on the book.

Let's get the book done and let's see what emerges from this other stuff.

And actually what really helped me was to.

and Lana talks a lot about this, Lana, who I really appreciated

working with in, in Vision 2020.

Start with who.

So I'd realized there's all of these topics I care about, but what I wasn't

clear on is who do I wanna serve?

And at one point it kind of just hit me like, I've worked so long with

all these change makers, I wanna serve them, but in particular, who

I really wanna serve are women.

Because there are still so few women in leadership roles in this space,

there's such a strong need for feminine leadership values and approaches,

which actually don't necessarily have anything to do with gender.

And so when I had that moment of like, this is who I wanna

serve, then it became easy.

I was like, okay.

So surveys and focus groups and discussion groups and understand what

people need and see how I can, um.

You know, connect that with what I offer, what I love offering, um, what

I'm looking to learn and develop.

And it was kind of when I could find that interface that, yeah,

things fell into place and I got the idea for the first program and

launched a better version of that.

And then things really got momentum.

'cause I had, I felt like I'd found my people and that's what I

needed to, to find my way forward.

about.

So there's two things I'm curious about from, from this

situation is what drew you to food sustainability in the first place?

What was it that interested you in going there?

And then what was your experience of leadership as part of this journey that

has, I assume, influenced why you're interested in shifting leadership now?

I think it quite a pivotal moment for me was, you know, I guess we all

had that moment at school, right?

When we, we kind of have to decide at one point, what are we

gonna study or what are we, what sort of work are we going to do?

And I'd always loved like the natural sciences, I'd love geography.

I really cared about at that time, environmental challenges were

like a really big concern for me.

And I remember going to talk to a careers advisor and said, I

think I wanna study geography.

I really am interested in this human environment connection.

I wanna know how we can fix these big problems.

And she told me, oh, science, you're not gonna get a job if you study science.

And I was like, oh, okay.

And she said, look, you've got decent grades, so why don't

you do medicine or engineering?

Like that's a career, you get a job.

And I was 17 at the time, so I didn't have much ability

to stand up for myself.

So I thought, oh, okay, well maybe I'll do, maybe I'll do engineering then.

And she said, look, there's this environmental engineering

program might be interesting.

I didn't even look into it that much, but I thought, yeah, maybe

that way I'll be able to, you know, learn how to tackle these

big environmental challenges.

So I went and studied it at university and like two months in actually

realized what I had ahead of me for four years, which was just like

straight maths science programming, kind of hardcore natural science stuff.

And it's not that I didn't love it, but it just was, you know, there's so much

more to being a human than this stuff.

But I stuck with it.

So I just stayed with it.

I finished this program and I had the luck and the last.

Pretty much the last semester of my program, I was walking through this

really miserable, gray concrete building in the chemical engineering department,

and there was this like tiny piece of color that caught my eye in the

corner of the room, and it was a flyer for a summer school in Switzerland

on this thing called sustainability, which this is 25 years ago.

So you know, it wasn't so well known then.

I picked it up and there were all these people from around the world looking

so happy, like hugging each other.

And there was the Swiss Alps in the background and I was in the middle of

this horrible design project, you know, 12 hours a day in a computer by myself.

And I was like, oh, that would be amazing.

They probably won't accept me, but I'll apply.

I got accepted, um, and found myself a few months later with my backpack,

this little car free village in Switzerland and meeting, you know, 40

other people from all around the world.

I had two weeks to talk about all these big social environmental challenges

and how they're connected and it was this like aha moment for me.

Wow.

There's this thing called sustainability and it covers everything I care about.

and I was, I guess really fortunate.

I, um, got invited back the next year to facilitate, uh, the program with the

faculty and yeah, there's a lot of side.

Parts to this story, but basically I was, um, doing some work in

different parts of the world.

I got to collaborate with them again in Costa Rica when I was

doing some volunteer work there.

And then I was offered this job back in Switzerland, um,

working on sustainability.

And that's where, as I mentioned before, you know, I started to look at all

these different challenges and just food just kept showing up in all of them.

And at the time it wasn't really being discussed in the frame of

these big sustainability challenges.

So I just got really curious about it.

Um, I had a chance as a consultant to work on a big project in the energy

space and I was like, oh, this is interesting, but oh, it'd be my dream

job if I could do this working on food.

'cause I think it's so important.

And then a few years later I came back to Switzerland.

They were starting the center exactly the same thing, but on food.

And I was lucky enough to get the job.

Um, so that's, that's how I found myself there.

And I think for a lot of that time I was working in a very male dominated

space, like coming from engineering, um, a lot of the fields that I worked

in, I was often the only woman.

I remember my first job as a graduate going out onto the job site and

firstly, nobody taking me seriously.

No one talking to me and then making all kinds of jokes

like, oh, this is Australia.

Mind you like, oh, love.

Why don't you go on a date with us first, and then we can talk about it?

And so I just felt very uncomfortable in a lot of situations

and I felt like this is my.

Issue to fix this.

I've gotta show I'm strong, I'm tough, I can do this, I can like,

go ahead with the best of them here.

I didn't ever see the systemic aspects of this.

Um, and it continued, you know, why then worked in a university for

so long and it's still very, um, male dominated in the leadership.

It's very hierarchical institution.

It's very old fashioned.

And so I saw a lot of things happen there that I feel have at the

basis of them, like fear, power, struggles, um, egoic ways of,

of interacting with each other.

Um, a lot of kind of territory building types of things.

Um, and that just kind of never, never meshed with me very well.

And I started to understand more the systemic issues at play here and see,

oh, okay, this actually isn't okay.

It's not about me, you know, changing to fit into this and

succeed in this system, but actually.

Wow, there's a lot we need to change in this system and it's not up to me alone.

So how do we come together with others who also feel that way and

try to imagine new possibilities and ways of working together?

Um, there's this really nice book, it's called Reinventing Organizations

that came out about 10 years ago.

Mm-hmm.

And there he does a really nice job of, you know, unpacking how

we've evolved, the ways that we run organizations and lead organizations.

And, you know, for the longest time we've always thought we

need to be a triangle, right?

There's those, the top with all this power and those at the bottom who are.

Exploited in some way, shape or form.

And then underneath that, even nature, which is, you know, not

even considered a part of this.

And we really need, I think, to think more in circles, to see how

everything is connected, how we are all connected, um, and to completely

reimagine how we we work, um, and what leadership means in that context.

I really appreciate that you know, that even that this, your story

of how that's kind of colored and, and not even colored, but

just I, I see the connection now.

Your own experience of being in these environments and now this

need rather than to fit in, but to.

Make the environment change around you, which I think is really a

powerful message, uh, and empowering.

and this is where, uh, leading into this idea for me is like for people who

are maybe not f familiar with Frederick Laou and reinventing organizations

and these ideas of different types of leadership, maybe like yourself,

like, is this the only way to lead?

I don't know.

Mm-hmm.

Could you, from your perspective, in your opinion, you've described

how it works, fear led territorial triangle, what that means in terms

of, the repercussions of that.

What is not work?

What, what are the effects of that,

Yeah.

I mean, I think if we'll sit for a moment and sense into how we

feel right now, individually and collectively like we sense things, I.

Are not working how they should be.

There's so much pain in the world in terms of like ecological

destruction, but also pain in social systems and injustice.

And even at an individual level, like so many people are exhausted and

burnt out and overwhelmed and like we, we can't imagine a more joyful and

just place from exhaustion, burnout.

So, mm-hmm.

Um, I don't believe it's effective.

When we look long term, we might, in the short term, more effectively

tick off to-do lists and hit goals and KPIs and all of these things.

Yes.

But what's the cost of it in the long term and what are we actually

working towards in the long term?

And this is something I battle with a lot internally because I have a very

strong orientation to that myself.

And I know a part of that's conditioning.

I'm very into the Enneagram and I work with a so trigger warning for all of

you here, don't love the Enneagram.

Um, but as an Enneagram one, like I have a lot of those tendencies.

It's a lot of my.

kind of default strategy to try and fix things and bring structure

and make things efficient.

And so I do work with that a lot in myself and I have to constantly question

and kind of, dance with new ways myself.

But, um, I think we all see the indicators that what we've done

in the past has brought us to a place that indicates it's not

working on a social level, on an environmental level, but also on this

personal level of feeling exhausted and burnt out and disconnected.

Like I think that's at the essence of our challenge.

We're essentially believing we are separate from the world around us,

from nature, from people around us.

And the whole system we're a part of keeps perpetuating that.

And we have this deep seated questioning constantly of like, am I enough?

And we try and fill that with doing more or acquiring more, or climbing up

hierarchies and all of these things.

But the essential.

A topic underneath it is more a spiritual one.

And it's, it's how do we find this enoughness by having more space

where we can get in contact with what it is to actually be human, to

be more in our essential self and to connect with all these other aspects

of life that aren't in our head.

Our emotions, our body, our relationships, spirituality.

Um, this more integrated way of being able to live in the world, would

allow us a more integrated way of leading, which I think would lead

us to a more balanced and healthy, um, systems, which would allow us

to kind of live in balance with and as a part of the natural world.

thank you.

I'm grateful.

That's really no, because it's really clarified for me this idea when you were

talking about hierarchical structures and you're talking about separation.

There's like the boss, the managers, the employees.

Even that concept of separation starts to bring, take us apart.

Mm-hmm.

And then that being like a fundamental story of us being separate because

of hierarchies and then also being separate from the world or the earth

or the planet, whatever we call it.

Nature, because we are doing something to it.

I am doing something to my underlings and my underlings are

doing something to their under.

Yeah.

'cause we're trying to push things through.

Mm. And that feels like it comes from somewhere.

And I, I wanted to rewind a bit 'cause you did talk about the Enneagram

and I know that something, and you'd

go back there.

That's

one of the things, but more broadly on that is this idea of self-knowledge.

Because I think, you know, you, when you talk about leadership from the inside

out, there are many other paradigms and frameworks for self knowledge.

But ultimately it sounds like that was a key because you, you, what I

heard from you was a self-awareness.

Like yeah, I am one of those people.

Or I can be like that.

And at the same time, there are different ways of doing it and I,

my my suspicion is that many people don't realize there's other ways.

They just think this is the only way 'cause I am like

this or this is how I am type.

Or they don't even know how they are, they just instinctively move through

the world, which causes unconscious.

I unconscious.

Yeah.

Maybe share a bit more about your thoughts around that

and how that works with you.

Sure.

Yeah.

I think that is one of the biggest challenges, right?

How do we get ourselves out of the machine enough that we can take

enough space to become conscious about what's unconsciously driving us.

Because I think, you know, the world we live in encourages to

us to just live on autopilot.

Everything's fast and quick and we're overwhelmed.

And unless we can step out of that enough to.

Start to really understand what's driving us at a deeper level.

It's extremely hard to change anything.

And I've worked with, you know, you've mentioned there's so

many frameworks and paradigms.

I've probably worked with all of them.

I've really explored so many different ones and none has had such a profound

impact on me as the Enneagram has.

And I'm a quite skeptical, generally of these systems.

I really wanna know where they've come from and, you know, what's

the story of the people that are pushing it and all of those things.

So I didn't, I don't come into it lightly.

Um, but I stay with it because I've seen that it's, you

know, profoundly impactful.

Not only with me, with people I work on one-on-one.

I mean, one of my programs lead the change.

The first module we work with the Enneagram in a group, um, of 20

people, which is just fascinating to unpack together and understand.

And I like the tool because it's not just a personality tool, it's.

I don't like this term, so it will probably turn a lot of people off, but

it's sometimes called a psychospiritual tool, and that's what I like about it.

It's helping us see that like it's not putting you in a box, it's

helping you understand this is the box you might have built around

yourself in terms of this is like your strategies, your personality, the

things you do to try and navigate in the world and the patterns in that.

But who you are is not that your essential self is something deeper.

It's one who's able to observe those things.

And so I think the Enneagram is this very effective key.

Or maybe like, it's like a fast track though.

I don't like that term because it, you know, it's not as organic as I

would like it to sound, but it maybe it reveals to us more directly.

What these patterns are.

And then we can start to observe them.

We can start to question them and finally start to practice other

ways of being and acting, which open up new possibilities for us.

And ultimately, it's all about finding balance, right?

Being able to find balance in ourselves, balance in the way that we relate

to each other, balance in the world.

And I think it's, yeah, I think it's a beautiful tool for that.

it's a very deep tool.

And I think one of the challenges with it being so popularized is people

often only see the surface level and you see things like, you know.

Blog articles on decorate your home according to your Enneagram type or

cosmetics, your Enneagram type, which is rubbish because it is really such a deep

tool and it helps us not only see our patterns, but understand what are some

growth pathways, what are some things we can experiment with that ultimately free

us, which is what we're trying to do.

Well, I think this is, I I like the, the fact that you use the word patterns.

Yeah.

uh, and I think of like even just furrows in a field, you

just like fall into it and you don't even realize you're there.

And this idea how you, what I'm hearing is break these patterns.

'cause these are patterns like you said in the Enneagram.

And all of these tools are patterns of, of personality maybe soften

rather than break, soften pattern break.

But yeah.

And if I was gonna extrapolate that, because there are patterns within

ourselves, but then with those patterns within society, there's

patterns within the way we believe the world works or how we should lead.

And so.

I see how this is connected to the softening of all of these patterns

that you're trying to work towards.

Mm-hmm.

With that being said, uh, we had this conversation about your work and I

wanted to just hear more about, or maybe get you to share a bit more about,

you say you work with female leaders, Jamie, but at the beginning it wasn't

so you weren't just focused on that.

Mm-hmm.

But somehow a pattern emerged.

I think, well, in designing the first program, as I mentioned, I

didn't have the idea in my head that I would only work with women.

Um, I, I thought we need to bring a lot of these approaches, which are

often coded or termed feminine values in leadership, into the whole world.

It benefits all of us.

We are all suffering from this imbalance.

and it's relevant for everyone.

And I don't, I didn't wanna perpetuate an kind of exclusive approach.

I wanted it to be inclusive that anyone could join, and that

was my mindset going into it.

And then I opened up applications for the first round and only women applied.

And it was the, um, kind of pilot round.

I just wanted to work with 20 people to see how this worked.

So 20 women applied and we went through this four month program

together and it was a really beautiful experience also for me.

I loved every moment of it.

And at the end we had a really interesting conversation around how was

it to be in this women's only space?

And so many talked about how nourishing it was, how supportive

it was, how important it was in realizing, ah, I'm not alone with

this, this questioning things, but thinking it's me that needs to change.

Or really doubting myself and feeling like an imposter.

This is like a syndrome I have to fix for myself and to realize

there's others feeling like that.

And that if we collectively talk about it, we can actually kind of

feel much more empowered to speak up.

Outside of this safe space and bring it more into the

systems that we're a part of.

And we had a lot of discussion around, you know, when there is inequality,

you do need these spaces, right?

That help bring those who are underrepresented, um, to give more

support and resources and power so that, um, there is even an

opportunity to kind of challenge, challenge the systems that are.

And so as a result of that and the discussion with that first cohort,

then yeah, I kind of made that decision with them that, okay,

this is a place for aspiring women leaders working on these topics.

And, um, we still talk about how do we bring these approaches more broadly.

I'm also in conversation with people, who, you know, might wanna work with

groups of men around exactly these topics with exactly this content.

And I'm super happy to support them.

I think this work is useful for everyone.

I've also had to question deeply like.

Um, what is my work to do?

What is my work?

It's not to do.

I really feel in my flow, in my power, in my space when I'm

working in these, um, environments where I'm supporting other women.

And I really strongly feel that's my work to do.

Um, and I'm happy to support others who wanna serve others.

Um, and actually I was able to support some of the women that went

through all the programs that I have, um, through their own coaching

training as well as a mentor.

And one of them really does wanna work with, men in leadership roles

to try and bring these approaches in.

So I see my role as kind of supporting that indirectly, but, um, holding the

space seems to be valued and important.

And so that's why I do it.

And the more I'm in it, the more I'm like, yes, we need this.

It makes total sense.

So, yeah, although it wasn't intentional, it

was a beautiful evolution.

What would you say this has meant in terms of this idea of niching

marketing business side of things by, discovering that there is this

need and how you present yourself.

I just wanna know if that has an impacted on, on the

business side of things for you.

so I mean, I still even struggle with the word business

to be completely honest.

I've come out of an academic not-for-profit space.

I see my organization as being about impact first and foremost.

And actually, I'm still struggling with what is the legal structure of it.

Uh, based on what my options are in Switzerland, is it a foundation?

Is it not-for-profit?

Is it an association?

Mm-hmm.

Is it a business?

Um, but what I did know leaving so many years of working in a

donor dependent space is that I wanted a break from fundraising.

I was really sick of selling things to donors, when they might

not have necessarily understood what those who were benefiting

from these programs really needed.

So I wanted to be able to work in this direct way of who am I serving, what

do they need, and doing it directly.

Um, but I do still consider it a social business model in the sense

that I offer a lot of scholarships.

I have, um, a lot of flexible pricing options so that cost is not a barrier

to entry That does mean sometimes on the backend we are not able to

streamline things as much as we would like to because I kind of negotiate

one-on-one with people that make sure that it fits where they are.

Um, and because I'm serving women all over the world, some who, you know,

some are setting up not-for-profits in Kenya, some are working in companies

in Switzerland, like their ability to pay is so different and so.

I would say I found a model that works.

Um, and I'm still trying to work out what's the best way to do this.

And a big question constantly for me is like, what does scaling even mean?

I wanna be able to impact more people, reach more people, support more

people that wanna do this work, to maybe have a home to do that work.

But I don't wanna perpetuate these structures, um, which

I've just said need to change.

And yet, you know, the reality of our economy and our legal

structures require that.

So I'm a little bit in the messy middle without it the moment.

Um, but that said, I've been able to build something that works

viably to at least, you know, be.

A basic livelihood for me and, um, to make sure people can

access the programs in that way.

So yeah, becoming a business has definitely been a long journey for me.

There's been a lot of mindset shifts also around like charging for my

time, which I had never done before.

Um, finding a way to balance that accessibility with viability of

like, people I really wanna pay people who contribute in our programs

appropriately and things like that.

Um, and just trying to find a way to get the word out about this work

to the people that conserve in a way that doesn't feel icky for me.

And like, marketing is still a word that I'm like, so just, you know, like

I have a newsletter once a month, and spend a lot of time there, like really

curating things that I hope are useful for people that are aligned with these

topics that yes, let them know about the things that we're offering, but in

a way that's still already serving them.

I got rid of all social media platforms 'cause they were just overwhelming

me focusing on LinkedIn and you know, trying to show up there in a way

that I feel adds value to people.

So I'd say I'm still on a journey, but what I really liked about being

a part of Vision 2020 was that you held space for a program where.

I didn't have to come in and be like, full on business.

And I'd been, I'd been in a program previously that I actually left

because it was so not aligned with my values, even though on paper

it was, you know, all of this like sales funnels and Google ads.

And I honestly, every webinar I almost wanted to vomit because

I was like, this is, I don't wanna be a part of this system.

Do I have to do this to be able to add value somehow?

Um, so I really like that in your space that, you know,

you really offered a lot of

lightness.

I love, I love that.

I love that.

We're gonna have to add that to the marketing.

We host webinars that, no, you might want to vomit.

as soon as you mission funnels, I think a lot of people have a visceral react.

I do.

Anyway.

It's like, oh, doesn't feel it.

Very

mechanistic and very, yeah.

Yeah.

even there it's like, well, you, why do you limit your programs to 20 people?

Like you could scale this and have a hundred rah And that was like, this is

the worst, you know, this feels awful.

I wanna be in connection with people I'm working with.

I don't wanna talk to my computer and then well sail away on my yacht

while people pay for a course.

It sounds awful to me.

So, yeah, I, I also had to realize what's the type of business

that feels aligned for me?

And I was glad to be able to explore that.

In the space that you create.

Feels like you've always had that clarity, would you say, in terms of

just whether it's decisiveness or just, um, par on, basically on like

how you wanna do this, like, not have something that's too full in

terms of people having it intimate.

Um, the design of everything you've done's already,

topnotch, you know, everything.

You curate a, a beautiful community it seems like.

So it feels like you've always had that, would you say you've

always had that sense of.

Don't wanna say taste, 'cause that sounds a bit, uh, loaded.

But you know what I mean, in terms of just like, am I, and, and I,

I know for detail, but also just clarity on the vision ultimately

of like how you wanna serve.

And you mentioned diversity is important, obviously not necessarily

men, but in terms of international reach, affordability, all of that stuff.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think those are all things I feel like I, I feel it in

my body if it's not right.

So sometimes I feel it more than I can, faster than I can articulate it.

And I also find I often need to like do the thing and

create it and play with it.

And then I can speak about it much better.

And I'm always surprised when people tell me, oh, your website's so clear.

Because I'm like, is it, I dunno if I'm able to communicate

clearly what I'm doing.

Well we do use your

manifesto as a bit of a, a, benchmark, I think for people in terms of

putting their manifest together.

Well it, you know, this was offered as an exercise in the program and it

came at a time when I was really trying to get clarity on what I'm doing and

I liked this idea of going at it in a really creative and emergent way.

So rather than kind of, you know, a manifesto that's very structured, I

actually kind of just sat down with a tea and I put on a candle and some nice

music and I just started to kind of.

Almost like in a poetic way, just let sentences come through me.

Like, what do I care about?

What's important?

What do I hope for this space?

Um, just kind of, I had this huge piece of paper, like you can't see it on my

screen, but it was huge, like a three.

And I was just writing and writing and writing.

I think it was over the Christmas break or something, and then I put it

down for a couple of days and I came back and kind of highlighted like,

what really still speaks to me here?

And then went through a process of kind of trying to, no, like

the word streamline comes, but it immediately feels wrong.

Um, somehow refine it.

Yeah.

In a way that would speak with people, speak to people.

And I came up with something and then, um, yeah, I, I'd worked with

these designers in Australia on my book and they had always done

a really beautiful job of kind of bringing to life the, all the

different things that I threw at them.

And I just said to them, look, you know, could we just try and make

this look compelling so people pick it up and it's digestible.

Maybe they just, their eyes drawn to just one little piece and that's

what they need to hear today and they can let the rest of it go.

It doesn't have to be this overwhelming thing.

Um, and they came back with the first iteration of this and I thought they

did a really nice job of Yeah, helping make it digestible, which is always

something that I care about given how overwhelmed we are in this day and age.

Because you mentioned before about being really in tune to your body and

your, you know, sensing, and this is obviously part of the theme today and

you mentioned when you were thinking about transitioning to doing this

full-time, being super self-aware.

I dunno if the Enneagram was a thing for you then, but this sense of mm-hmm.

I can feel my mindset.

Getting a bit more fearful.

And you mentioned that idea of like, you can just feel things weren't

right in terms of how you were feeling about where you currently

were and this need to, you had something to pull you forward,

but even then it was quite early.

So I dunno, maybe just that idea of trusting in your own sensing

really in terms of, um, making a big decision in a maybe drawn out way

over time, which I think is sensible, but just that feeling of Yeah, I

know something doesn't feel right.

Well, I would also say I haven't always been like that.

It's been a long process for me of valuing anything in my

life over other than my mind.

Like, you know, especially being so long in academia, that

was just such a strong focus.

And it's actually through the Enneagram that I started to realize.

I do actually have a strong felt sense of things, but I often denied it.

Or I often wasn't in a place where I could connect to my body and my emotions

because I was just, all my energy's up here and I was just kind of too busy.

Um, and when I look back in my life, there's actually been

a few major things and I felt them very strongly in my body.

And at the time, I didn't know what they were.

Like.

I remember when I was 15, I picked up a guidebook in my, um, my

parents' house, and it had a pitch.

It was for Switzerland and Italy, and I had this incredible like, shiver through

my body and almost tears in my eyes.

And I'm like, that's super weird.

Wow.

But anyway, now I, now I live my life between these two countries.

Um, the first time I came to Switzerland, I was, um, on a

train going past where I now live.

And I had this very strong, I. Feeling in my body.

I didn't know what it was at the time, but kind of, I now live there.

Another not so great story.

I once had a very strong feeling, um, when I walked into a boyfriend's house

that something was very wrong and I went into his room, opened one of 10

cupboard doors, and found a girl sitting in the bottom of the cupboard, which

is obviously, oh my God, not, not a great thing, but I felt it in my body.

There was this crazy instinct that somehow pulled me to

that exact cupboard door.

So did

you open the other cupboard as well?

I was fine.

Make sure there was, oh no,

that was enough.

It was also a friend, so it was like a double whammy situation.

Oh my God.

Anyway, um, and just to say like, I've always had this feeling, but

I didn't necessarily know it or trust it, and I've gotten much

better also ex examples like that, of trusting there's something here.

This is information, this is intelligence.

This is wisdom that you can trust as much as something

that your mind can come to.

Um, and being able to integrate those.

Different sources of wisdom and inspiration, I think make it easier

for me to trust that even if my mind hasn't worked this out, even if I don't

see exactly what is needed, I have to trust to go in this direction and

things will emerge and things will, will, you'll work it out along the way.

And that was really hard for me.

I have to say this, I make it sound, um, like smooth this transition,

but really for one year it was very not smooth because I, um, I couldn't

quite articulate what I wanted.

I couldn't think it, I couldn't structure it.

I felt it, but I, I didn't really know where I was going.

And we did this nice exercise right in, um, at the start of 2020.

I think we kind of had to feel into what was like in your way.

And I realized, I thought I didn't have clarity.

I. But actually I do, like, I have enough clarity to take the first

step, and if I take the first step, I'll get enough clarity

to take the next step and so on.

And, and that's how I've started to move.

And it's helped me a lot to stop thinking I have to have the five

year vision and plan, you know, the very linear approach and

the crash

master feeling to what's emerging.

Yeah.

So I, I wanted to, because I, I wanna, I wanna talk to that experience

because it's very easy to just say, trust your gut, everywhere.

On Instagram.

It's, it's a t-shirt, whatever it is.

But there is a, there's a journey for some people.

I think to, to connect with someone who is on that journey.

What do you believe is the mistrust that some of us have around feelings?

What is it about thinking that we value more than feeling

Well, I think our whole society tells us that's what we should value.

Like we live in a system from.

Depending where we are in the world, but I mean, in most western

schooling systems we have basically no connection with our emotions, with

our body, except maybe in sport like, uh, in a kind of more rigid way.

We have little around relationships.

We have nothing around spirituality.

So we are already being conditioned to overuse that part of ourselves and to

over rely on that part of ourselves.

So it's no wonder that even if we get a sense, oh, something else

is maybe telling me something here, we don't trust it as much.

'cause the whole world's telling us, well, it's not as important.

Um, and I think, it's also important to talk about this, I

guess in a trauma informed way.

Like for many people, it doesn't feel safe to be in the body or it's

very, um, triggering or challenging to, receive some of these signals.

And, and so there's a lot.

in working with the body that I think we need to be sensitive with about and that

it's not as easy as it first sounds.

I think the other challenge is, you know, we are spending so much of

our lives either in the future or in the past because that's where

our mind is always taking us.

Literally, the only way to be in the now is in our body.

It's through our body.

And there's also often a discomfort in stopping and slowing down and being

in the now that's when the emotions that we haven't been tackling come up.

That's when the thoughts we've been suppressing come up.

That's when the discomfort in our body is there and, and we have to face it.

And so I understand why it's really hard to go there and why

it's been really hard for me too.

Um, and it's also why it's so important that collectively

we hold more space for it.

So we, we are more supported in the process.

No, I'm, I'm, I think that's really important for us, myself and Laurence.

I think with the work we do, and I assume also with the work with you,

what you do, it isn't just step one, step two, step three, you're done, you

ticked it off, other stuff comes up.

You know, we talk about within the programs and, you know, start writing

in public, start sharing your stuff.

and I, it took me a while to click this idea of being trauma informed

so that the experience of something, doing something that feels really

alien to you, can just be physically, well, emotionally incapacitating

to a certain extent, freezing.

Mm-hmm.

So, I'm curious with you, like, you know, this is a new type of leadership.

We're talking about feelings, we're gonna try to, about connecting,

trying to create safe space.

What does that mean for you in terms of thinking about

this new type of leadership?

What, what, how are we needing to be not only with ourselves, but with

others to allow for more of this?

To work through ourselves.

' Yeah.

I mean I essentially, we're trying to explore new ways

of being, doing and relating.

and it's even new for us to think about being and relating because

we focus so much on the doing.

So that's the first thing, right?

Is, is even being willing to direct enough resources and time

to anything that's not doing is the first step to any of this.

Um, I think the second thing is to realize that this like process

of reconnection to ourselves, to others, to the planet.

It's inside out work.

Yes, we have to do it ourselves, but that doesn't mean it's individual work.

So I think we do need to do it in community.

And that's actually why I love running group programs because we have that

collective experience and it's not just this individual experience.

and I really just feel it's about, you know, making enough space for

all of these aspects of being human.

The, the feeling, the, the body, the mind, the relational,

but also the spiritual.

And in all of those spaces, having enough time to like

increase our awareness.

Yes.

Deepen our understanding.

Yes.

But we always think that we can jump from like awareness to

change, but it's a long process.

Right.

We need to.

From awareness, start to understand, then we need to

start practicing new ways.

And practicing is like we are fumbling.

We we're trying things for the first time.

It's awkward.

It doesn't always work.

We need to iterate.

Um, and it's only through practicing new ways many times

that we actually create change.

So I think we need to be much more generous in offering spaces for

practice, um, in ourselves, in our families, in our organizations, um,

because it's not just like we realize and then we change it and it's done.

It's like there's always this messy, we're always in the messy middle.

Um, and there's value in that too.

So I think that's, yeah, one of many aspects to that.

I mean, essentially the question I'm really interested in at the moment,

and I think that lies under this, is like, what does it mean to make

our contribution from a place of love rather than a place of fear?

And there's a lot that's buried underneath that.

Um, but I think right now mostly we are showing up from a place of

fear and it's understandable given how way our systems are structured.

I had a very funny, um, experience recently.

I was at a place, it's relevant, it's funny because the name

of it is The Happy Farm.

Um, so Happy Startup School is also a happy farm and it's at a

place called Plum Village, which is Han's Retreat Center in France.

And I was just there, there was a meeting of this, um, UNDP,

conscious Food Systems Alliance.

Anyway, one of the practices when you're living in the monastic community there

is to have, uh, 20 minutes of silence.

At the start of every meal.

So you really sit and breathe and notice your food and it's really

uncomfortable and really hard.

But in that process, um, the first meal we had, there was this thing in my

bowl and I was like, this is delicious.

I wonder what it is.

And I asked when we could start speaking.

I asked one of the monks and he said, oh, it's Tempe.

I'm like, I hate Tempe.

Normally it's the worst food ever, like this terrible relic from the sixties.

And he said, oh no, this is a special Tempe.

We make it here ourselves.

There's one monk and you can go and speak to him if you want.

And so a couple of days later, a few of us like found this little

hidden path through the forest and we went to this little hut where

the Tempe monk makes his Tempe.

And we arrived and he had his little hat off to the side

and this twinkle in his eye.

And he was like, I just blew up another centrifuge.

And it's all these bits thrown everywhere.

Um, and he then proceeded to tell us like how he went about creating this,

in my opinion, best Tempe in the world.

And, um.

As I was watching him, I just realized, wow, this is what it means to work

and contribute from a place of love.

He was just so full of this playful, experimental, joyful energy.

Anyone who was interested kind of, he had more and

more monks come and join him.

And then they, in this very non-hierarchical way,

played around with this.

They made crazy control systems and it's this huge elaborate venture now

they make this amazing Tempe, and it just made me really reflect, like when

they live in this way that they do, they spend a lot of time in contemplation,

in meditation, in community.

In being the doing that emerges from that is very, very different.

And I was like, oh, this is a beautiful example of working

from love rather than fear.

Like you could feel it.

And I was thinking, how amazing if that could, if we could all do

a little bit more of that and it could ripple out into the world.

I'm guessing they don't sell it outside of, uh, plum Village.

No, they don't.

They just make it for themselves.

And that's, that was interesting.

He said, people always come and they say, yeah, but how can we,

um, how can we scale this up?

How can I export this?

How can we rah rah?

And he's always like, Hey, I'm happy to help you make your own Tempe, but

like, that's not what I'm here for.

I already feed 150 something people, you know?

And I think that's beautiful.

That also that setting of the boundaries, right?

Like this is enough.

Thank you so much, Michelle.

Really appreciated the stories more than anything else and

just how that connects with all, all the work that you're doing.

Um, if people wanna find out more about what you do or is there

anything that's coming up that you'd like to talk about to share

so that they can spread the message?

Yeah, sure.

Well, first of all, the easiest is you've put a link at the

bottom here that says, learn more.

Learn more about leading change from the inside out.

So that's where you'll find my website.

at the bottom there, you can sign up for the newsletter, ENA, who's here.

Her and her and I spend time each month really curating something that

just gives fresh insights on what does it mean to kind of eat, live and

lead, in a way that supports our own wellbeing and the world's wellbeing.

The new project I'm working on at the moment is a podcast

and a book, uh, which is all around the emotions of change.

So when we show up wanting to create positive change in the world, it's.

Actually totally normal that a lot of emotions are involved, but

we don't really talk about it.

And so, um, I'm talking with really inspiring change

makers around the world.

Um, really kind of digging behind the, the screen, getting under the

surface of, you know, what happens when self-doubt shows up, when fear shows

up, when there's guilt of privilege, when there's grief, when there's, you

know, how do we, how do we connect to our joy and love and all these things.

So that's fun.

And that will also be a book that comes out next year, um, hopefully as a, yeah.

Really helpful guidebook for anybody that's trying to navigate that

path and maybe feels alone with, all of the very normal hurdles

that we encounter along the way.

Mm-hmm.

Excellent.

I love the idea of that book.

Looking forward to, yeah.

To seeing it come out.

That's amazing.

Well, I need to make sure there's some accountability, so maybe

I'll reach out for, you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Loud to work out loud, which I'm not great at.

Yeah, I'm really not great at that.

We can call

you up every week saying Next page Done, written.

What's that?

Yeah, you should come to the right tower.

Have

a I have a i'll and I have a friends of the book group within the

community, so that's been amazing.

A lot of women have been really supportive.

Oh, wonderful.

So I'm gonna definitely work with them and make sure it's also useful for

them and get their stories in there.

So.

Well, I'd love, you know, just as well, just a quick, well, some

reflections from you really help us.

You've been part of Vision 2020, you've gone through the process.

Uh, just to share a little bit about what, what you've got out of it.

In, in, in that journey.

You talked about connections with Sina, which is amazing.

Is there anything else that you could share for someone who's like.

Like I said, would vomit.

They're experiencing the whole click funnel webinar help.

Well

actually, but that, that collaboration thing's really key, isn't it?

I think it's something people seek and, and want, but don't necessarily

actively get as, as, I dunno.

Maybe talk to that, just how that came about as well.

Yeah, I think I met a lot of really great people.

Um, and afterwards, you know, we had this kind of follow up group, so I

collaborated a little bit with Becky around her courageous leadership work,

some things with Mark on the POD podcast and um, had the chance to meet Sina who

just actually just reached out and said, Hey, I think it work's really cool.

Can we see if we can collaborate?

And we've been working together for, I know she's here.

How long has it seen?

A year and a half, maybe two years now.

And it's amazing.

So, um, definitely connecting with like-minded people was a big bonus.

Um, I think it provided me this kind of really light support in a

time when I needed to know that this way of working was okay actually.

And there are, um, examples of other people running similar

types of organizations.

Like it can work.

You don't have to be sucked into this whole.

Online marketing world, which is just not where I wanna be spending my time.

I'm not doing this work for that, I'm not doing this work

for profit, I'm doing it 'cause I wanna support people who I think

make a difference in the world.

So yeah, I found that really supportive And yeah, I mean on a, on a

pragmatic level, some nice, you know, exercises, tools, things to play with.

So that was, that was really nice too.

So, yeah, final thoughts, Laurence, anything that, um, you're taking

away from this conversation?

Yeah, loads.

Um.

I love your framing of this as a systemic problem.

Not necessarily just like, yeah, creating a little community of, you

know, women leaders and this is a nice thing to do, but actually how

are we all complicit in, in some ways, what was it Jerry Clo said

in, in the conditions We don't want.

And so understanding Sick is men leading a community and a

lot of women in the community.

How we can be aware of that and show up in a way that supports people.

We've got, I've got one in my current group, a lady who's really

not struggling, but really feeling that tension between wanting

to work with women, um, and a particular niche of women as well.

And just the almost backlash that might come from that, or just a

reaction that might come from that.

So I think that's really powerful for me is your commitment to that, your.

I think clarity about what your work is to do as well.

Like the, the fact that by committing to women, then you've seen it already,

that other people can take that on and apply that to men as well.

So it's not necessarily your job to do that, but that idea

of doubling down on who you are drawn to doesn't stop that work.

Then helping on a more sort of global societal level.

So yeah, I find that really inspiring.

Cool.

Thanks Laurence.

Yeah.

I, I'm gonna, sort of add onto this idea of my work to do.

I, I'm really, I love this idea.

I think, um, it's something I'm playing with at the moment.

There's so many things that need to be changed in the world.

A lot of us are looking for purpose and meaning in, in our

work and in our ways of life.

And it can feel overwhelming where to spend our time and is it enough?

And, and this kind of even maybe self shaming of like, oh, is it okay to just

sit on the beach for a bit and relax when all of these things are happening?

And at the same time.

The world is complex.

There is so much going.

And I, I saw a quote today that I really liked.

I think it's from Elizabeth Gilbert.

You are afraid of surrender because you don't want to lose

control, but you never had control.

All you had was anxiety.

And that thing is like accepting that.

And then, okay, how can I, like you said, work from a

place of love rather than fear.

Mm-hmm.

So thank you for just reminding me of that and just, uh,

yeah, getting me clearer.

How about you, Michelle?

Um, no, it's just been really, it's been a really nice opportunity to

come back and reconnect with you both because it also makes me reflect, I

did vision 2020 in 2020, so, yeah.

it's four years ago.

Yeah.

And it's really nice actually to just look at what's evolved since

then and how much more clarity I seem to have, if that's what

you're saying, which is nice.

I'm always wondering if I am clear enough.

Um, yeah, and just that, you know, these themes are so human, right.

We're all grappling with them in one way, shape, or form.

And I love how you are taking some of these topics and thinking about

what does that mean in our community.

And I, I'm just really glad that you've held space for a conversation

where we can also connect threads and dots across communities and works.

So thanks, thanks a lot for having me.

final thing for me, I'll just use, as you said, it's just patience,

like your story, your transition, you building this business, business,

stroke, social business, um, and just that word is something that

is hard when you're starting out.

Ever.

You want everything to work straight away, but just

this almost peace with the.

The journey and how that evolves rather than trying to force it too soon.