You found the backup wrap up your go-to podcast for all things

backup recovery and cyber recovery.

In this episode, we challenge the notion that cloud versus

tape is an either or proposition.

I saw this LinkedIn post claiming that.

LTO Library Robots are the only robots not making things easier

in 2025, and it got my attention.

He suggested that tape is too slow and unreliable compared to cloud for active

archives, which got me a little worked up.

Here's the thing, if you're putting data in cloud's, cheaper tiers, guess what?

It's probably sitting on tape anyway.

Persona and I break down, uh, I think a real comparison, cost, access, time, data

integrity, and location considerations.

But honestly, I just start by rejecting the premise of the question because it's

probably on tape if it's in the cloud.

I hope you enjoy the episode.

By the way, if you don't know who I am, I'm w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr.

Backup, and I've been passionate about backup and recovery for over 30 years,

ever since I had to tell my boss.

We had no backups of that database that we just lost.

I don't want that to happen to you, and that's why I do this podcast.

On this podcast, we turn unappreciated backup admins into Cyber Recovery Heroes.

This is the backup wrap up.

Welcome to the show.

Hi, I am w Curtis Preston, AKA, Mr. Backup, and I have with me a guy who has

been flaunting his new job in my face.

Prasanna Malaiyandi, how's it going?

Prasanna I.

I am good Curtis.

I, I wouldn't call it flaunting, but I'm just excited about my

new job.

Oh, you should see the campus.

It's so amazing.

And the coffee.

And the coffee and the food and the food choices are so great.

And I'm like, I, my coffee

You.

Yeah, I see the, I see your coffee choice in the corner.

Yeah.

Let's see if I tilt the camera.

That's my new espresso machine, and you can see at the bottom.

For those of you watching on YouTube, it has a like a little shelf

with a drawer of coffee choices.

And as you if you, and so I think people you should watch, or listeners, you

should watch the podcast on YouTube

and keep an eye on that shelf and see how many go missing every single time

you watch between episodes to see how big of a caffeine habit cur Curtis has.

yeah.

Yeah.

Curtis definitely has a caffeine habit, but the, the rules are that if you

get coffee like at like, you know, a breakfast place and then you come home,

those coffees, they don't, they don't count.

They're together.

You can't count them together.

'cause if you did, that would be a lot.

Have you ever thought about injecting coffee directly into your veins?

I don't think that would work out well.

So today's topic is not coffee.

Today's topic is about tape versus cloud and the, the or, or

there, why, why, why is it versus.

Because

in the last epi, last episode, we talked about how the

cloud is probably using tape.

Don't, don't, don't be jumping to the punchline,

No, I'm, no, I'm just restating You said cloud versus tape

Yes.

That is the name of the, that is the name of the show, of the episode.

And the reason, the reason it's cloud versus tape is that all of

this started with one guy's post.

okay.

Right?

So this all started from this LinkedIn post that I saw and.

It, it had a headline that, you know, a good headline in

a post is, is solid, right?

And this PO and the headline of this post caught me, right?

And here's what it said.

This is, this is, this answers your question.

Why is this a versus episode?

Here's what it said, LTO Library robots, the only robots not

making things easier in 2025.

What.

That's what it says.

And he says Controversial.

Nope.

Uh, and then he goes on to basically do a tape versus cloud, uh, post.

and, and we'll include, And we'll include the link to the post in the show notes.

Yeah.

So all you tape, well, actually I don't, I don't know.

Just 'cause you're backup friendly doesn't mean you're tape friendly.

You should be tape friendly if you're listening to, if you listen to this

No.

Just so they can see what the original post was about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I want him, I want him to go comment on,

um, you know, I mean, he'll, he'll like it.

'cause basically the pose is, you know, advertising how amazing they

are first off, he makes two, um, I'll say claims about tape, one of which

I thought was totally outta line.

And then the other I think is in the context of, you know, in

the context is not that big of a deal, but when we talk about.

So his points, so he's basically suggesting, first off, he's saying

cloud is better than tape for the concept of an active archive.

Let me define active archive.

And that is.

Well, it's somewhat self-defining, but it, you know, a traditional archive

is you make a copy and you put it on a shelf and you hope you never touch it.

An active archive is secondary data, right.

You know, uh, maybe even tertiary, you know, data of

secondary or tertiary importance.

But we might occasionally access it.

Not rarely, but occasionally.

And

just to chime in on that, so when you said active archive, I was like, that

sounds like an oxymoron, you know?

Right.

Because no one thinks active and archive together now having

worked in storage for a long time.

Right.

Normally what we'd also call that is HSM, right.

Hierarchical storage management.

yes.

Yes.

I, I think HSM would qualify Yeah.

Where older data sort of gets tiered off into lower costs, lower storage,

just to keep it still visible, right.

And accessible.

But there is sort of a penalty of being able to read that data back.

But from a client perspective, it's still available and usable.

Right, and it, it.

It might not be fully HSM, right?

'cause the, the, the idea of HSM is that it, it just magically comes back.

But, but it, it is, it is this idea of an archive, which is actively,

that you're actively pulling stuff out on a regular basis.

And as opposed to sort of the traditional, like you said, like

true archive where you put it there and you just, you never access it.

and just, uh, one example, and

let me know if you think this makes sense for our listeners too, is like.

Medical research like DNA research, like these models and this data,

scientific data that they collect, right?

They may not actively need it, right?

To use it on a day-to-day basis.

They might need to store it because in some future point they may need

to be able to reference that data.

And usually this data is very, very large data sets.

And so you don't wanna necessarily keep it stored on your primary

storage system because of cost.

Yes.

Um, but you still want it.

You wanna make sure it stays around and you wanna be able to

access it right there, there.

By the way, there's an entire, uh, group called the Active Archive Alliance, which

is a whole, whole number of people, some of which listen to the show that, um, that

are basically vendors dedicated to this concept of the, of the active archive.

So he, you know.

He was basically suggesting that if you have an active archive, if you're going

to regularly retrieve data from the archive, then again, according to the

post, you should put it in the cloud and not on tape because cloud is better and

tape is, his two claims are too slow.

And he basically implied that it was unreliable.

Right?

He said, if you want that clip at your fingertips without the weight

and the will it load anxiety.

I was like, what the, what, what is that?

So, so basically he's saying it takes too long and, and it's, and

it's not reliable and so therefore you need to put it in the cloud and.

okay.

Keep going.

Yeah.

Well, but that's, that was the point of his post.

Okay.

And I, I, I know that, that one of the first things that's going to come

to your mind is if you put it in the cloud, it might indeed be on tape.

Right?

So it's, so first off, there, there is no such thing as tape versus cloud.

It's, it's really tape versus.

His post was about T versus cloud.

And so I thought it was a, you know, a good topic to discuss and also to just

bring up the fact that, um, if, if the listeners don't know, if you are using

the lower cost tiers of cloud storage, you are most likely storing your data on tape.

Go listen to our episode a couple or a couple episodes ago.

We just talked about this.

Did we, I forgot.

Yes, we did.

Curtis,

Do you remember what the title of that episode was?

I don't think it's been published yet, but it,

Oh, is that what it is?

Okay.

We did

Oh, yeah.

We did, we did talk about what,

IS tape backup dead.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

So yes.

Right.

So we did, we did mention that that in the tape back is taped back up

dead episode, which is, which is, which is related to this episode.

And there, and then we made a lot of really good points in that

episode, which we're not gonna take the time to rehash in this episode.

This is mainly about, first off, this idea of is cloud better than tape?

And first off, I'm gonna say that I reject the premise because it's

really disc versus tape, right?

Not cloud versus

but even if I just took, so I think that is definitely a fair angle to look at it

in my mind.

When you said cloud versus tape, the one thing that, or couple

things pop to mind, right?

So one is.

Storing data on cloud.

If your infrastructure that you need to access the data is on premises,

you're going to need to pull the data back and send the data up.

And that's gonna take time to, especially if these are active archive

scenarios, like I had mentioned, where you might have a very large data set.

Right?

So

one is it's not gonna be instantaneous, right?

Versus something that might be on premises like your tape library

Yeah, that's a, that's a great point.

Right?

So, so if we're, if we are talking like, if we, if we don't reject the premise and

we say cloud versus tape, like setting aside the fact that cloud is often tape,

right?

If we're talking about putting your data in a cloud vendor, ver

put, versus putting your data in a tape library that you control Yes.

Access.

Could be an issue depending on the size of the things that we're talking about.

It's not instantaneous to move things back and forth from the cloud.

Um, potentially this is mitigated by moving where your infrastructure is.

If your infrastructure is up, you know, if you're, if you're storing the data

in a AWS and your compute happens to be an AWS, it's a much shorter trip.

Yep.

Um,

the,

I

that, that is a really valid point.

And then the other, so I had two more points.

Um, the second one is cost, right?

He doesn't necessarily talk about that, but.

He doesn't talk about cost at

Right, but if, say you wanted not the very lowest cost storage

that's in the cloud, but something that's a little bit more practical,

right?

You're paying per month, per

gigabyte, right?

If you have very, very large data sets and multiple, very, very large

data sets, the cost can quickly add up, especially if this is archive,

which implies that you're keeping it for a very, very, very long time.

Yes.

And that's a really good point, right?

And, and that's been historically my, you know, when I'll, I'll quickly

summarize the things that I, um, talked about in the other episode.

Cost, uh, initial integrity and long-term integrity, right?

So.

Tape is much, much, much, much, much cheaper than literally

in all three categories.

It is at least one, sometimes two, sometimes three orders of

magnitude better in that category.

So, and, and in fact, I've, I've regular, I've regularly made the

claim if what we're talking about is long-term storage, that set aside,

set, set aside, cloud for the minute.

Even if we looked at disc that we're going to own, which we know long term is going

to be cheaper than doing it in the cloud, uh, assuming we have a hundred percent

utilization and all of that, right?

But, um, if the disc were free,

right, it would still be more expensive than tape.

Yep.

Why?

Why would I say that?

Power cooling

Power and cooling

right?

And data center space.

Yep.

Um, because it's going to be bigger than the tape, it's going to create way

more power need, or it's gonna have way more power needs, which then creates

way more heat, which then has to be dissipated through, uh, cooling, right?

So that's why I've often made the, the argument, again, cloud is a different

argument, but when it comes to cost, even if disc were free tape would be cheaper.

Why?

Why is that?

because.

Well, you just talked about it, right?

Because tape is, you write it and then it just sits there.

Right?

You are not powering it.

You're not cooling it.

Right?

In fact, it should be, I think in the last episode we talked about, right?

It should be stored at room temperature, Right.

So

And, and the, and the even and the drives, unlike disc, the drives aren't consuming

much power when they're not being used.

Right.

Um, and they're consuming.

And, and when the drive is doing something, it's consuming less

power than the same amount of disc.

Right.

Um, the tapes consume zero power, right?

So the, the tape li a tape library that is.

You know, this big and a tape library that's this big, consumes

the same amount of power.

And, and for people, uh, listening to the podcast, Curtis basically showed

maybe a foot and a half versus six feet.

Yeah.

There you go.

Um,

So,

so,

yes.

those listening at home, yeah.

Uh, yeah, go ahead.

Nope.

Well, it just, it just cost is definitely the number one, uh, thing.

Because, because then when we talk about cloud, your point is super, super valid

because if we're talking cloud, you are paying every single month forever.

As long as you're keeping that, that archive in there and you're

paying by the gigabyte and that per gigabyte price is, um, that

you're paying every month is likely.

And it's probably similar to the acquisition price of tape.

Right?

Right.

Meaning, meaning just buying that one tape and you're,

you're gonna pay that per month.

and then the other thing to also mention is active.

So you talked about active archive, so I'm

assuming you are gonna be reading the data periodically,

Right.

right?

Which means that depending on what storage tier or storage class you use

for the cloud, you may have different costs for reading the data back.

Right, which

could be very very expensive for the lowest cost tier of storage.

right, right.

Yeah.

They do charge you quite a bit.

'cause the idea with of depending on the class that you put in, so your choice

is paying more per gigabyte per month.

And be able to access it no problem.

Or pay less per gigabyte per month and then pay a lot when you access it.

Um, you know, pick your poison, right.

Um, and also the cost per month is also going to depend, usually depends on how

quickly you'll be able to access it.

At least it isn't a WSI know like in Google storage, Google Cloud storage.

the same, I think

it's the

same, the same access time, but they just charge you again

based on when you access it.

Yep.

Uh, I, I have one more.

Yeah.

Okay, so the third one, right?

My third point about this, just cloud versus tape,

assuming once again that you're running on premises,

right?

And you're storing your data in the cloud, right?

We talked about the cost of storing it up there, the cost of the time

it takes to transfer it up and down.

Mm-hmm.

One other cost we didn't talk about is egress cost,

right?

Well, I, I thought, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna play dumb here.

I thought we just talked about that, the charge

No, that's just to restore the data.

But to actually transfer the data

Right,

is a cost as well.

So for

instance, if your infrastructure exists on premises to pull your data from

the cloud back to your data center, they're going to typically charge you.

Yeah.

Which you now need to factor in.

And once again, this goes all the way back to the active archive definition, right?

You're reading this data at some frequency, right?

It's not just staying up there and you're never getting it back, right?

So in addition to paying the restore cost, right, you also have to pay

the data, transfer out cost or egress cost, and that could add up,

especially if your data set is large.

Yeah, that, that's a, and and just to sort of put in, know, simpler language,

those last two things you're paying.

I, I, if you're using infrequently accessed object storage, and, and

that's part of the CO and that's the, like Glacier Deep Archive, for example,

is one of these things where you, you get a really cheap monthly cost, but

that's based on the idea that you're never gonna bring any of it back.

Right.

But if you do bring it back, then they charge you extra just

to take it out of the archive.

And then you're right.

There is then the cost to, to bring it back so that first cost would happen,

whether it leaves the cloud or not.

Just like if, if they transferred it within Google, I'm sorry.

Or within AWS, uh, and then that second cost is when you bring

it back to your environment.

Yeah, that's, these are really good, these are really good points.

Um, the other, and, and, and just really quickly to talk about

the, the data integrity issue.

Tape is better at writing ones and zeros than disc.

Um, and, uh, fi, um, um, flash, right?

Why?

What, what's with, what's with the

no, I keep,

WTF?

Why the face?

So I'm, I'm thinking though, so I agree that it is better

There's no agree or disagree.

It's just a scientific fact.

Facts.

but I do wonder with object storage

and how they do sharding and everything else, if their error rates are actually

better than single disc, maybe not quite approaching single tape level.

So let, so let,

of

that's it.

It's a good point.

I don't mean to cut you out, but that's a good point.

But I don't think so because when the.

When the, um, initial corruption happens with a single bit,

they've, they, they can possibly.

The point is that when they read the data back, they might not notice

that the corruption has happened.

It's just there, there are all kinds of error correction that you can

do on top, but again, it's just a that, that you can try again, try

to mitigate some of these problems.

But it's a simple fact that disc wakes makes.

Way more errors when writing ones and zeros to magnetic media than tape does.

It's literally two orders of magnitude better from the best

disc to the worst tape, right?

And then the nicer tapes is another one, or even two orders of

I agree that it's not gonna be the same.

I'm just wondering if it's better when we talk about object storage, right?

Or a system like AWS versus like your traditional disc, right?

Because of the additional protections that some of these storage vendors, uh, create.

I'm not gonna say it's gonna beat tape,

but I do wonder if it, maybe the delta is just a little bit better.

I follow what you're saying.

I'm just, I'm just saying.

Well, so here's the thing.

People write to tape with object storage too, and we write to disc

with object storage too, right?

So your, if, if we've got object storage on both sides, then it's

still better on tape than disc.

Yes, that is true.

Right.

I mean, we could argue, we could, we could, we'd have to do a

lot of research to figure out whether, how much better it is.

But the, the simple fact is it's better.

Right.

By the way, I, I like you challenging me on this, but,

but that's just, that's just it.

And then let's talk about the other thing.

And again, you could argue that maybe, um, object storage would notice this.

And, it may notice it, but it might not.

And that is long term, a bit rot.

Um, bit rot is way worse on this than it is on tape.

Yes.

Possibly.

And,

of the, uh, object storage stuff would maybe notice that the bit rot

happened, uh, and then self-repair.

I would hope so.

Um, but my, but the alternative, the common belief is that tape is bad

for long-term storage and tape is bad at writing data in the first place.

And I'm saying it's actually better,

No, I, I, I don't disagree with that at all.

Uh, the other thing to also remember is cloud isn't something magical.

It's just someone else's server,

Yeah.

It's,

right?

it's not a, it is not magical.

Um, but let's talk about, let's talk about his two, his

Sorry.

I, sorry.

that's, that's, those are the thoughts that ran through my head

when you said cloud versus tape, and I was like, huh.

So he, he, he has two claims.

One is, he's saying that, that it takes too long to, if, if you're

doing an active archive kind of thing, it takes too long to load.

And second, it's, um, that, you know, you, you, you might, it might not load.

Okay.

Um,

Does

he talk about?

Yeah.

What does he mean by takes too long?

Okay.

Oh,

Well, let's do the second one first, because I think it's just total bunk.

I, I, I said, what are you talking about?

Right.

Maybe if we're talking about LTO from.

Or.

10, 15 years

Or it's that one tape drive that you had at that one company you worked for like

25 years ago where you would write it, you would put it out and you'd put it

in a different one and it wouldn't work.

Yeah.

Yeah.

that, was like 25, 30 years ago.

We, we, yeah, we've worked on that.

Right?

And there was, when LTO was early, there was this concept of a loss leader, right.

Where, you know, but it, it was fixable, right?

It wasn't, your data wasn't in question.

It was fixable and it was also rare.

Uh, whereas when something bad happens to a disc, it's not fixable.

You can, you just swap it out.

Right.

So this, this idea that it might not load, I was like, come on man.

Like, what are you talking about?

That, that's just, that's just a fud that, that has no, as many

tapes as I have had in my life.

I unless we talk, unless we go back to the early, early, early days, I, I don't have

any memory of a tape that just wouldn't load that, that, that I couldn't fix.

Um, so, but the, but the second one is, you know, it's, it's both

a valid and an invalid claim and that is that disc will take longer.

I'm sorry, tape will take longer to load than disc.

Um.

So it's both.

It's it's valid and it is, and it's invalid for multiple reasons.

One that I think even in an active archive situation, the idea is this stuff got

archived and now you're bringing it back.

The average load time of a tape is around two and a half

minutes last time I checked.

And so if you've, if you've archived it, that means you

haven't looked at it in Right.

The expectation is very low.

expectation is very low.

If it comes back in two and a half minutes, what?

What's the problem?

Right?

Deep archive.

I think it's 12 hours,

right?

For normal

restore time

you can, you can pay extra to get it back faster, but

and by the way.

You know, I can't prove this because I don't work there.

And if I did work there, I probably wouldn't be able to tell you the,

when they designed glacier and you know, and Glacier Deep Archive, they

designed that SLA with tape in mind, right there is, why is it 12 hours?

If it's disc, why is it any kind of hours?

If it's disc, it's clearly tape.

And by the way, that means it's tape on a shelf, meaning

it's not tape in a tape robot.

Right, because why would it need to be 12 hours?

I, maybe, maybe it's there, there's, you know, it's, if it's

a high volume library, there's a, a buildup of requests for tapes.

But, um,

But we don't know exactly what they're doing.

This

is

don't know exactly what they're doing.

Right.

But I, I just, I don't think it's a valid complaint to say I don't,

it's gonna be two to three minutes to get my file back, the file that

I haven't looked at in six months.

I just don't think that's a valid

complaint.

The expectation is that like the're, even in an active archive.

If.

If you're gonna put it on tape or in the cloud, which may be on tape,

that is, that there's a, there's an understanding there that, that you're

putting it in a place that's gonna require some effort to get it back.

You're not gonna do that for stuff that you, you might need right away.

You're doing, you're gonna put stuff there.

Even if it's an active archive, even if it's a full HSM system, you're

not gonna put stuff on tape or cloud that you might need tomorrow.

This is a, I might need this in six months.

And, and again, I just think, you know, if you've waited six months to

pull the file out, if it comes out in three minutes from now, I, I don't,

I don't see how that's a problem.

Um, and if it is a problem, then I would suggest that you've got a bad design

You probably

don't wanna be actively archiving data.

Yeah, yeah.

You, you, well, you need a, you need a three-tiered archive.

Then you need a, you need a disc archive.

You need a, whether it's cloud or on-prem disc, you need a dis cache

to your.

You know, truly old stuff part, right?

Um, so that's why, you know, when I read this thing, I, I, I didn't get

hot and bothered, but I hearkened.

Back to the tape Sucks.

Move on.

Bumper sticker from your former employer.

Do you have it?

I don't quite have that one, but I do.

Oh wait, I have.

What is that?

What is that?

Oh, is that, that is not cool.

It says it was a truck that said lost tapes on the side.

And then on the

back it does say

where, where is it a bumper sticker that says, tape sucks and move on.

Yeah.

I, I mean, you could argue that that was a very successful.

Marketing

Marketing campaign.

'cause we still remember it all these years later.

But I remember it because I thought it was bs, right?

I mean, tape did suck.

Tape does suck in certain ways, but

if you use it in the,

wrong way, it will suck.

Just like anything else though, any other technology, use it in the wrong way

or for an unintended use case and there will be issues.

so if we talk about cloud.

Really what it is, really what the discussion should be

is on-prem versus off-prem.

Right?

Because cloud is tape.

So if I'm putting the data in the cloud, especially older, 'cause you

said it's talking about active archive, I'm probably putting it on tape.

So it's not tape versus cloud, it's, it's on-prem tape versus off-prem,

cloud, whatever that happens to be.

is that the thing, or is it disc versus tape and on-prem versus off-prem?

Sure.

Right.

I would just, I would just argue that like if you need the stuff you know,

like that, then both tape and long and long term archive is not the place to do.

Yeah.

put it, if you, if you, if you, if you have access times measured in seconds,

then you shouldn't be putting it on either tape or Glacier Deep Archive and the like.

Yeah,

Right.

Are are we in agreement there?

I am, but

Yeah.

What is with the,

you always have a big butt, you know, that.

By the way, that's the dirtiest line in, um, PeeWee's, Herman's big Adventure.

She says, I know, but, and he goes, everybody I know has a big, but

The, the reason I mentioned that is even if, so you said tape

versus Glacier Deep Archive, right?

Or whatever else in the cloud,

it's some, something like that.

Yeah.

I think

there are cases where you could still leverage.

Oh, but that's still considered tape though.

No, what I'm saying is the access time of Glacier Deep Archive

Necessitates.

in the sets it it is, is similar.

It's actually worse than tape.

Right?

So if what he's saying is you get a better access time, well

then that means he's using, like, he's not using any of the tiers.

That have massive savings.

So now we're talking huge difference

It's S3 or, or it's like a normal

S3 infrequent access.

Right.

Um,

still very, very, very expensive.

it's very expensive.

Right.

And then so then we're, so, so we're not talking about, I'm, I'm saying

the closest thing to compare tape to is Glacier Deep Archive and the like.

Right.

Um, and I'm saying that if you need.

Access time measured in seconds . You should not be putting it on tape or there,

you should be putting it on, on-prem object storage or cloud object storage.

this, this post got me all worked up.

I

just like, are you forgetful?

Because literally three minutes ago you're like, oh yeah, no,

this post didn't get me hot and.

It got me all worked up.

I was like, come on man.

Come on, man.

Doing my, doing my Biden impersonation.

Come on man.

Um, yeah, so it, it's about your requirements and if your requirements

are measured in seconds, you're right.

Tape's the wrong place, but so is Glacier Deep Archive, so

But even if your time is measured in seconds,

yeah.

also make sure you understand where your data exists because.

Even if you had used, say, infrequent access S3 with time measured in

seconds, if you have to pull the data back on premises, you're

gonna blow it out of the water.

It doesn't matter, right?

So the only time it makes sense to use cloud and S3, infrequent access for

this particular use case, where you need seconds is if your source data or

your compute also runs in the cloud.

Yes.

Yes.

Good point.

Good point.

Good point.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

You are so right, sir.

thank you.

Can I have another.

my new,

oh, the memories.

Um.

The shout out to my fellow shell backs.

Somebody knows what that means, but most people won't.

Anyway, I'm a, I'm a golden shellback.

For those of you that know what that means, the rest of you

feel free to Google it anyway.

Um, it means that I was both hazed and I, and I hazed, um,

the world's oldest hazing ritual.

Um.

Formerly sponsored by the US Navy, um, and now it's a, a,

a shadow of his former self.

'cause apparently now it's bad to beat people.

Oh, Curtis.

I kid.

I kid.

All right.

Well, um, thanks for, thanks for having the chat.

This was, this was fun.

You know, it would've been more fun if the guy was here.

To defend his position, but that's why we do the podcast so then we can make fun of

people without them being on the podcast.

Yeah.

And, and then, and then he could, he could record his own podcast where he

talks about us and how stupid we are.

Anyway.

All right.

Well, uh, thanks to listeners you are, why we do this, that, and I dunno, Prasanna

and I got nothing else better to do.

Uh, that is a wrap.

The backup wrap up is written, recorded, and produced by me w Curtis Preston.

If you need backup or Dr. Consulting content generation or expert witness

work, check out backup central.com.

You can also find links from my O'Reilly Books on the same website.

Remember, this is an independent podcast and any opinions that

you hear are those of the speaker and not necessarily an employer.

Thanks for listening.