Over the past few weeks, I've been incredibly fortunate and grateful to take you behind the scenes at Walt Disney Imagineering, giving you an inside look at the people like Zolt Horme and the place and process. During a very special tour of imagineering that I was invited to share last week. And in both of those episodes and the video that I shared from inside Walt Disney Imagineering, which you are normally not allowed to do, we explored the incredible history and legacy of imagineering. And this week we look to the future and to the vision of what's next. And who better to explore that than the person at the very top? And my very special guest this week is Bruce Vaughn, the chief Creative officer of Walt Disney Imagineering. And what was supposed to be a quote unquote traditional interview very quickly and naturally evolved into something more personal, candid and, I think, inspiring. And I am so grateful that I hit record when I did, because what followed is a rare, honest, one on one conversation about the people, the. The purpose and the path forward for imagineering. So I'm excited this week for you to come with me, not just inside Imagineering, but inside the heart and mind of the person, helping guide the next generation of magic and magic makers. Hello, my friend and welcome to WDW Radio, your guide to the Disney parks, movies and experiences around the world. I am Lou Mongello and this is show number 838. And whether it is your first time here or you've been with me since the very beginning. Welcome. Welcome back. Welcome home. Because for more than 20 years, I've shared my love of Disney through the podcast, live video events, cruises and our incredible community. And I am so grateful to you that you're here because you're not just a listener, you are part of the WW Radio family. Couple of quick things before we dive in. 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As I teased a little bit during this episode's intro, this week's show is a little different and I think in the best possible way because when I sat down with Bruce Vaughn, the Chief Operating Officer of Walt Disney Imagineering, I was prepared to do what I've done literally hundreds of times over the past 20 years on the podcast, which is conduct a very well researched, prepared and structured interview with a narrative arc and a journey. I wanted to take Bruce on and questions that I, you know, take a lot of time and care to craft. But what happened was unexpected and I think a little fortuitous because our conversation when Bruce walked in the door just started flowing naturally, candidly and very authentically. And I quickly realized this was not going to be a typical interview. It was something that was much more personal, more reflective and I think more revealing. So I did the only thing I could think to do, which was press record as quickly as I realized this was happening. And I'm so very grateful that I did because what you are about to hear is clearly a very unscripted one on one conversation that I think brings out not just Bruce Vaughn's brilliant mind and visionary leadership, but I think his humanity and his humility and his humor and really I think his deep passion for imagineering and more importantly, the people behind it. And we talk about everything from legacy to leadership, the power of emotion and shared experiences. I think what it really means to be an imagineer. And we're imagineering and we as guests are headed next. So please come with me as we go inside imagineering and inside the heart and mind of the man who is helping lead it into the future. So I invite you to pull up a chair and sit with me and Bruce in the secret. I never even knew it was there. Offices of Walt Disney Imagineering and join our conversation.

We wanted to put a little. Cause, you know, when I got back, we realized that many of the imagineers had only been here for like five years or so and I had been going seven. So it hit me that they didn't have a real. And that meant they probably joined around Covid, so they didn't have a really strong sense of the culture or the history. Because as we know, during COVID it's tough to really have the kind of shared culture that imagineering is really so strong with. So we wanted to use the halls to sort of tell the story. So as you walk through, you'd see the legends, you'd see the history of how the work was done and just celebrate the various expertise we weren't done. There's a whole hallway of music, music that we have to still do and all this kind of stuff and the writers, the steps going up to the writers have the sort of famous lines, the backside of water and all that stuff. But you know, it should be a fun place and celebrate who we are. 73 years, pretty long time.

Yeah, it's not lost on me, you know, walking in there, who has sort of walked those halls before. I love how you embrace the history and the legacy and nostalgia while still working on what you're looking to do.

What'S next, and that is what's key and did you get to see Magical? Well, the Walt Disney Magical Life? Oh, you did? Yeah. Yeah. What'd you think? I loved it. It's amazing, right? And what I. What it really reminded me when, you know, came back and it was underway already, so. But Tom Fitzgerald, you know, started showing me the script and the film, and it's just. Just what a remarkable. I mean, talk about an entrepreneur and a risk taker and fearless, you know, and failed and, you know, just got right back up. And, you know, that is a spirit. We're talking a lot in Imagineering about this entrepreneurial mindset. It's like, you know, we're great at what we do and we've done it for 70, but it doesn't mean you should rest on your laurels. That guy wouldn't. If he was alive today, God knows what he'd be doing. You know what I mean? And it's so inspirational. I'm also happy that we're a 100-year-old company and we still honor our founder. That doesn't always happen, and we should. And that's what I. For those who love him already, I think that film will be a great reminder of just how amazing he was. And then I think for people who don't, it should hopefully be a point of inspiration. But I've been using that a lot with the imagineer saying, this is it, man. Just. Just rekindle this spirit with, you know, like you said, an eye towards the world we live in, which is becoming, you know, it's completely different than what it was. But everybody wants. We're still about emotion. Our product is emotion. At the end of the day, that's all there is to it. Yes, we build incredible things and put on shows and do fireworks and drones, but at the end of the day, we're all about, you know, a certain set of emotions that we want people to feel. And fortunately for us, they're the best kind of emotions. Because Walt was absolutely intent that through design, you could design happiness. Through design, you can bring out the best in people. That's why he was probably going to go on to Epcot was going to be an actual city, because I think he was totally convinced that from his experiments with the parks that, look how everybody behaves. And it's true. Today you watch people, if those same people crossed each other in any street in a city, they wouldn't smile at each other, be friendly, help each other, hold the door, whatever it is. And it's all because of the environment and the design. And it's Pretty remarkable. And we're very fortunate that we get to work on that. Of all the things I was saying.

To Nicole, too, I think when people go to that attraction, which I almost. Hate calling it an attraction because it's something else.

I agree with you.

You have to take a holistic view of it and what it represents, not just having him represented in that figure. But I think you're right. Introducing him to a new generation of people who, you know, there might be a little bit of a disconnect between Walt the human being and the father and the man and the.

A lot of people. It's a studio name, I think. You know what I mean? And it's so much more than that. And it's a good reminder. I mean, I did get. You saw the John hench, I'm sure. You know, I was lucky enough in the first years I worked there, John was still there. So not only did you get to, you know, mentor with Marty, who had, you know, we see, touched the cloth of Walt, but John was phenomenal. He was like the philosopher, you know, and he had this office upstairs, and he wore the cravat, and he was amazing. And when I finally got the nerve to go up and just say. And he was so welcoming, and it was just. I mean, because, you know, he hung with Salvador Dali and, you know, he read poems and he. But he was just like, oh, this is the kind of people Walt surrounded him with, you know, himself with, this is what you do, and it's still there. And this is what I love. And he was one of the main reasons, because, you know, I heard you used to be a lawyer. Yeah, I went to law school for three months. Did you hear that? So I dropped out. I found law school very interesting. My dad was a lawyer, so. But a great man, by the way. I loved him. But then he told me he didn't even want to be a lawyer. I was like, great, dad. Thanks. But, you know, because I just got enamored with entertainment when I saw Star wars at 12 years old, and that just changed me forever. And I just wanted to be a creator like George Lucas or Spielberg. And so when I ended up at Disney, I had never been to a theme park. I mean, when I became an imagineer, I didn't even know what the word was. So it was very weird for me. But as I got more and more immersed into what the product is and what the process is and the people, it began to really become like, oh, wow, this is incredible. And John was a big piece of that because I didn't realize you hear theme park, you hear this stuff. But there's a deep philosophy. And I think Joe Rody's the closest thing to that now. You know what I mean? If I call him Professor Rhodey, right? We still have him as an advisor mentoring people because he's so good and passionate, but that's the way it was. And it's just. You realize that there is something noble. Not to overblow it, but there's something noble about what we do when we do it right. Because it really to be a source of joy, to be a source of shared experience. And I'm a very optimistic person. So I was telling Monica this a little earlier. Even Covid, I try to find silver linings. And I think one of them that I can point to is that we all came out of that. I think appreciating just how amazing and valuable shared experiences are in the real world. Irl, it's like, you know what I mean? It really is important, and you want to do them in places where you can just let go and be happy. And we're one of the places maybe several places around the world. And what I love is when I came back, I left pretty much opening day of Shanghai when I took my little hiatus. And I came back seven years later. And to see how mature all the parks are, to see how everything everywhere. What really resonated me was wherever we go and we modify slightly to reflect the culture and the behaviors. But it's really slight when you really think about it. Wherever we go, the humans act the same. They respond the same way. And that's pretty amazing, you know what I mean? When you can see the same sort of joy and desire to hang out together. And it's just opening that child within everybody when you do that, I think the world's a better place.

Yeah, Covid definitely let us all recognize and sort of remember, maybe not take as much for granted just how special and important this place is, not just to you guys, but obviously to us as guests.

Well, I'll tell you, that's something I also remind every imagineer. It's like. Because often imagineers are also huge fans of all this stuff. But we're doing it for the guests now. It's great when it can resonate that exactly what you want is exactly what a guest want. But at the end of the day, we are the designers, and we've got to reflect what we know will resonate with the guests. And it isn't always what the guests want, because you don't always know. I can't tell a chef, a Michelin star chef, what to cook for me because it's like, they gotta dream that up. But when they get it right, you're like, whoa, didn't expect. This is amazing. And we're the same way. So it is something that when we come to work, I always remind this is for the guests, not for us. And again, if that happens to coincide, great. But it doesn't matter. But we also have to evolve. And you brought that up. It's one of the hardest parts of the job is you move something. You know what I mean? And it's like, ah. And I know why this actually happened. Once we moved to. I did operations, moved to churro code at Disneyland once. Many, many, many, many, many years ago. Literally was a churro code on the hub. They moved it, like, around the corner and it was as if it was invisible. They couldn't find it. And they were so angry because they were like, no, because it's ritual. It literally is ritual. And I have places like this. I love new things. But I also, especially because I travel so much for work when I go home and I have a house in Sonoma, but I live in la. I go to the same places all the time. You know what I mean? Because they know me and I want the same thing. And God forbid they don't have the thing on the menu, you know what I mean? So I get it now. At the same time, I am when they happily surprise me with, like, introduce something new and it's actually as good or better is what you strive for. You go, okay, this is fine. You're taking me on a journey and you respect the fact that I have so much passion about this. But that is something we face a lot as imagineers is like, okay, we're going to move this. And we know it's a tough order, is to deliver something that is going to be hopefully better in its own way.

Right. We, I think, implicitly trust imagineering, but I always say, if you want to make Disney fans lose their minds, tell them you're going to change something.

Yeah, right.

Because you have to sort of. You have that delicate balance of, you know, how do we replace something that, you know, means so much to somebody?

Yes, that's right.

But for something that, you know, is not just for a next generation of. Fans and their children.

That's right.

But is going to be an important improvement on the overall guest experience. We may or may not be, you know, talking about Frontier Land.

I have a list I'm kidding. No, no, actually. And most of it's great. Most of it's great. And I think, you know, and again, I always. You know, some people get very frustrated internally in the company stuff. I see it as passion. I'm like, it's coming from a good place. The ones I care about are the ones who come from a place of passion. And, you know, and we try. We're doing a few things. I mean, you know, we try to get out there. People want to kind of get visions of what we're doing. We're trying to take them on the journey of. I always say, the early phases of our projects, especially the big attractions and lands. That is not for the faint of heart, because the ideas are going to change a lot. And you cannot fall in love with something. It'll be like. So when we release images, like on D23 or something, everybody's nervous because we're, like, imprinted. That's what you're building, kind of where we're going. You know what I mean? And when we try to be careful so that whatever we deliver has, again, the emotional impact of that. But don't go in. And I try to try more and more to say, let's create something that is. So if you saw the Abu Dhabi images, it's sort of like, I don't know, does that. Wait, wait, could that be. You know what I mean? But it implies a scale. It implies you can begin to feel, what am I gonna. How is this gonna make me feel? That's what we try to do in the beginning because it is a complex process and it's a complex product. And, you know, and luckily, I have entertainment under me as well. So that's our nimble, quick, get out there, do things in shorter time frame stuff. But these bigger things, three years down the road, everything, oh, wait, this changed. You know what I mean? But we also love the idea of taking the fans along on the journey because it's fun. And so we just try to keep that message out there that just go with us. You know what I mean? Go with us. This is early, trust me. There are imagineers who are a thousand times more passionate because they kind of knew what it could have been. But it's just like filmmakers or anybody, what's left on the cutting room floor, the guests will never know. The audience will never know. But they still feel for it. They're like, oh, that would have been a great scene. But it doesn't matter if it came together great. So it's something that we're always playing with. With Monica. It's like, okay, what can we release? What can we not? I don't know what you feel about the. We call it imagineering YouTube stuff that we're doing. I mean, I think that kind of opening up and allowing in that way is really fun because it is an exciting place. It really is. I love every day I wake up. I mean, I couldn't be happier to be back. I wasn't going to. I had no intention of coming back. It was Josh d' Amaro sort of called me and invited me back and said, this is going to be the most amazing time in imagineering history. And I said, I think I kind of did that the first time. But he was right, it is. And I knew I would enjoy it, but I didn't think I would completely love it. The way I do it is just. And part of it might be having gone out and done other things, startups and things like this, and learned a lot and evolved. A part of it might be 60 this year. So you just get older and wiser and appreciate things differently and you hone your craft, too. So that makes it good. But it is just so exciting right now. I mean, just the amount of exciting work and the variety of work. I'm someone who loves to switch gears all day long, you know what I mean? So it's kind of the perfect job for me because on one hand I'll be talking about a cruise ship, and the other hand I'll be talking about a parade and, you know, some attraction somewhere, and it'll be in China and it'll be here, whatever. So it's super, super fun.

So a couple of quick things that. I just took from what you said. First of all, I love the fact that you are aware of the granular stuff, the churro cart being moved not so far removed from it that you recognize that that's important to people. You know, small things that change are important people. And you keep talking about emotion. And I love the fact that you use the word love and feelings because that's what this is all about. A lot of executives sometimes shy away from using terms like that, but that's why we feel the way we do about this place. That's why it was so sad for us when the parks closed for Covid. How special was to be able to come back and why, you know, for better or for worse, the reactions that you see online do come from a place of passion and love for these things.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And by the way, I, you know, for me, you know, I happen to be executive by chance, I guess, because I've never, never had these kinds of ambitions. I love creating things. I love working in teams to create. In fact, the part of this job that I can relate to, this is the only time I'll compare myself at all to Walt Disney and then compare myself to him. But it's something he said that I can relate to, is what I'll say. And it's in the show, when he was asked, do you draw Mickey? No, I don't draw Mickey. No, I don't do that. I'm like a little bee that goes around politics. That is my job. It literally is like, I could relate. I went, that is exactly it. No one idea is mine. In fact, I spend most of my time on the ones that need help, the ones that are going, good, great. You got it. And what I did learn about myself, though, is that I am able to sort of identify, okay, this is where you're just, let's get back on track here, and let's just do this. And it's super fun. I do, you know, and I love this, and I wouldn't change it for the world. I do miss because in my early days, I worked at the R and D group, and we did a bunch of cool experimental stuff. Lucky the Dinosaur, the Muppet mobile lab Turtle Doc would crash, which started as a photophone, would stitch and all this kind of stuff. And those were small, nimble teams that put things together. You up all night, you're hanging out, you're not worried about anything else going on, and you're just focused. And that is, like, one of the funnest things you can ever do in your life. Right now, I get to see everything, and I get to touch all the teams. And that's super fun, too, but it's different. And I guess if I didn't get the reinforcement, and if other executives didn't tell me, no, this is what you should be doing, I'd probably be like, I want to go. But there's a certain point where you go, this is my destiny. This is what I should be doing. And I'm not complaining, because it is awesome, but it is interesting. But there's no more greater joy for me than seeing an imagineering team have those breakthroughs, helping them have those breakthroughs, where you just know we've got a few projects going on right now where we've crossed over certain milestones, and you just sit in some combination of the storytelling, whether it be the music, it might be just A certain thing, a scene or special effect or something, you go, oh, there's. This is going to be great. I cannot wait for this to get in front of the guests. You know what I mean? And you go, this is going to be like. Because I love magic, I love illusions. And to have that moment where you just know. Even the greatest skeptic has suspended disbelief because they're like, I don't know what's happening. This is awesome. And that's what kids are. Kids willingly suspend disbelief. They take a cardboard box and make something cool out of it. Adults, we get skeptical, we get jaded. And when we get the whole family feeling that way, from the grandparents down to the little kids, it's that to me. And there's moments, it could be in a parade, there's nighttime shows where you look at and go, this is going to be great. They just are not going to see a comment. And it's going to be amazing and it's going to be repeatable. And that's the big joy for me. I mean, after this. I recently restarted our illusions lab because I believe at the end of the day, emotion is our product and perception is one of our biggest tools. We use a lot of big technology, and when you're doing a Rise of the Resistance or a Tower of Terror, you have to have big machines and big technology. But it can be just as effective. You know, look, it must have been what Walt and the original Imagineers felt when they first did Pepper's Ghost for the Haunted Mansion, because it's like they're going to believe there's ghosts. You know what I mean? And it's just so cool when you get those things. And we still do a lot of that. And one of the ways we. Special effects and illusions, because I used to do that as a cameraman, which is different because it's film and you can play with that. I think that is so core. And I'm going to go visit the one here. We have one in LA and one here. And that's one of my favorite moments, because it's just the minds that could take something, something small, whatever. But when you're looking at it going, wait a minute, what is that? How are you doing that? And usually it's the simplest thing, so it is that combination. And you're right, it is the littlest details, too. In fact, what I fell in love with Disney was actually the attention to detail.

Because you were not a Disney person. As a.

No, my father never took me. My mother, too. They just, you know, I Watched the Walt Disney. The repeats of the Sunday Magical World, Wonderful Walt Disney on Sunday. I forget there was two of them. And so that was it. We never went to the parks. We never did anything until I became an imagineer. The company I worked for got acquired and I was told, you're an imagineer. I was an English major. So actually I literally said this to the HR person. I said, I'm an English major. That is not a word. She said, you don't know what this is? I said, no, I don't know. Now, mind you, it was secret back then. It was sort of a secret secret, you know, it's more of a secret thing. But so I had never. My first time I went was alone at 27 years old. I told this story. It was so funny. They flew me to California to join Imagineering during the two week orientation where you learned all these words like berm and all this stuff. I have to admit, it was very interesting. I was like, wow, this is really. They put a lot of thinking into this thing. And they said, and inevitably you get the question, what's your favorite attraction? I said, I don't know. I've never been to a place. I'm going to the park. So they did. This is crazy because, you know, there is like Disneyland right down the road. Nope. They flew me here, I guess because they wanted me to see the big one. I have no idea. So my first was Walt Disney World, 1993. Just walking around, you know, with a list that Tom Fitzgerald and Marty had made saying, you got to do this, you got to do this, got to do this, and mind blown. This is a very true story. I literally call. I was one of the lucky people in the world, I've learned, that had a great childhood, great parents. And I did call them. Literally. I was at the Wilderness Lodge. And in those days, you picked up the phone and called and I said, mom and dad, you were almost the perfect parents. And they said, what happened? I said, if you had taken me when I was 9 or 10 years old on Peter Pan, I would have blown my mind. You know what I mean? And it blew my mind at 27, because I could picture what it must be like to be a kid on that thing where you think you fly out this window and there's London. I was like, oh, my God. And again, there was no video of this stuff or anything. So I didn't know. I was like, what am I getting onto a little pirate ship? And it was like, oh, my God, we're flying over London. Look you know, just like, holy crap.

But you were on the journey you. Were supposed to be on, right?

That's right.

And I love the, you know, as long as you're talking about Walt and some of the parallels, I think one, you know, like Walt, he took his artists and animators and said, you're going to be an imagineer. And they said, what the heck's an imagineer? But you're a storyteller, right? You're a storyteller. And I love the fact that you take sort of a filmic approach to storytelling. This like they do this immersive, multi dimensional now, even with, you know, the greater blessing of additional technology being able to tell these very personal stories for every guest that walks through the gate.

I've often been told by other imagineers that the fact that I didn't grow up always wanting to be an imagineer has brought a perspective that allows me to probably stand more in the guest shoes than even they could because it's what they wanted to create. Not that they'd be wrong, but I, I definitely came in where it was like, okay, those are the guests, these are the creators, and how do we bring this together? And they're probably right. That little critical distance, I would call it, has allowed me to always. We create motion. And I want a motion in the product. But someone at some point does have to bring a little adult into the room. Because one of the things I also know about imagineering, I half jokingly, only half jokingly say that the most important piece of furniture in my office is the couch. Because there's a lot of, of therapy going on and you want it to be. It is not a problem. A creative organization. And I'm not just talking about the design. Everybody there is creative. Our lawyers are. I mean, it's just like everybody is there because they feel the same way about what I want to do with my life. And this is the product I want to create. So they all have this innovative, creative side. And to do the product we do, I need those teams to mostly be in what I call child mode. You have to know what it feels like to be a kid, otherwise we're not going to succeed. And I think Walt said it was a nine year old or something. He had a specific age. Everybody has a nine year old. I think that's what it was. I probably got that wrong. But it's, you know, it's that. And that does mean though, if people are in child mode, you're going to get a tantrum, you're going to get emotional swings. You're going to get, you know, passion, you know, and, you know, a big part of my job is guiding that back. And, you know, I call it. You know, a lot of imagineers are like lasers. They're very, very good, pointed in the right direction, incredibly effective. Not they're going to spin around and blind people. You know what I mean? It's just going to be crazy. So part of my job is focus the laser. Let's get over there. Focus the laser here, let's get over there. And when you do that, they do things that I certainly couldn't do, that probably very few people in the world could do. But there is the need for a sense of guidance. Otherwise, honestly, if they weren't super emotional, super passionate, and able to tap into this child mode, we just wouldn't have to product we have. It doesn't mean it's juvenile. It just means it evokes that wonder that you have as a child about the world.

And I love the fact that you've spoken about the power of reverse mentoring. It's not just a leader teaching somebody new that comes in, but their willingness to learn.

That is super important. We have the Great Benefit again. 73 years, and one of the first things I did when I came back and actually Justin Warren asked me to do this, I probably would have done anyway, but he said, let's get a lot of people retired when I was away who were the. And it was like, let's bring them back under some sort of advisory thing and make sure they mentor, not to do the projects. We need the next generations of imagineers to do the projects, because that's how you cut your teeth and that's how you learn. But the wisdom is super important. And I do agree with you, the reverse mentoring is something that actually came. Peter Gruber, you know who Peter Gruber is, from Batman, all this kind of stuff. I met him through ucla. I used to teach at ucla, immersive design and stuff. And he was teaching there, too, a producer program. And we just hit it off, and he became a mentor. But he's the one who taught me that, because I actually went to him and I said, I want you to mentor me. You're very wise. He's actually very clever. And he said, we're going to reverse mentor. You're going to mentor me, and I'm going to mentor you. And I actually said. I said, what do I got to give you? He goes, you're young. You have a different lens. You grew up differently from me. And I Need to not just become some old guy. I was like, wow, this is so cool. So I began to implement that early on. I would grab a young audio ASA club, who's actually this young guy from ucla. I brought him in as an intern. And then we had this older guy who's now retired, Steve Kadar, who was an audio guy. And ASA at that time had already grown up using devices and pads, and Steve was still up on a board calling shots and doing all this stuff. And ASA just came to me and he said, I don't know, it was 20 or something. And he said, you know, we could run the whole thing off of this iPad. And I was like, you can run the whole thing off the iPad? He goes, yeah, I could walk around and trigger it. And I was like, well, show me he did. Steve at first was like, no, no, no. You know what I mean? And then it was like, wait a minute. It's easier. It's better. I just told him. He said, learn from assa. You know what I mean? But there was a lot that ASA didn't know about exactly how to get the sound through the right levels, because Steve had done it for so long that that kind of. Of the kind of experience that you only get by doing and doing. I had a teacher who said, it's just coins in the meter at some point. You know what I mean? You just gotta keep pointing. Only time can get you to a certain place. It's like learning an instrument or something. I told you the story the other day. Did you find the name? I was listening to? I think it was probably NPR or something years ago. I love jazz. And there was this trumpet player, and he was this obviously old man at the time. And the interviewer was saying, I think he was in his 80s. And he was like, so you've been doing this for so long. How do you challenge yourself? And he goes, well, my teacher challenges me. He's like, teacher? He goes, yeah, I've never stopped taking lessons. And it was like, but you're like a virtuoso master. You just never stop taking lessons. And there's a certain point where you get so good, you can't push yourself anymore. You need someone else to hold a mirror up and say. Say, you know, try this. And that's what a lot of reverse mentoring does. You know, the people who don't have the experience should tap into the experience of those who do. But those who have a lot of experience should recognize that I might be calcifying here. You know, I should probably absorb Some.

Of this, as opposed to this is the way we've been doing it for. 70 years, which you get complacent and sort of get that mindset.

Yeah, you have to be. And that's what a big thing that I've been talking about, talking to the teams about is. It's fine to start and say we do it a way that could be successful. But I've been really pushing on this idea of curiosity and it was a big Walt thing about curiosity. Stay curious and it's just have the curiosity to say, but what if we didn't do it that way? We can always go back to it. We know we could do it that way. What if we didn't? And I'm a big one for integrated teams and this includes by the way, the park operators safety. One of the things too that I didn't like when I came back, there was a bit of a sense of victim and I was like, don't be a victim. There is no big bad guy. Power is something you give, you know what I mean? If no one has power over you, you give that. And it's one of the things that I talked to Josh about when I came back. I said imagineering is going to have a seat at the table. But again, I don't want the seat that says we tell you what to do. It needs to be the seat that brings our expertise to it. But trust me, the people who operate these parks, the people that deal with the, the commercial and finance side of things, they also have tremendous expertise. What you have to do is respect when you are the expert, you know what I mean? And don't try to weigh in in a really strong way in an area that maybe you're not the expert. So if you go in and just tell your doctor, just give me a shot here. My arm hurts like no, last I checked, I'm the doctor, you know what I mean? Let me do a little analysis here. But we're doing a great job down here. It's really been a model, I have to say, of these integrated teams where we early on, when it can be a small nimble team before you start deploying a lot of capital and moving down the pipeline, come to some sticky decisions about this is what we're trying to do together and keep that locked and keep moving and you can modify as you go, that is a real important thing. So I am a big team player. I believe in the integration. I believe in learning about what other people do. Walk in their shoes, you know what I mean? Don't think you're going to be the expert, but at least appreciate why decisions are made. And I think too often I even hear this sometimes from the outside where it's like they're not letting imagineering do, they're cutting the budgets. That's not the case. I'm here right now telling you that is not the case. It is absolutely the case that we are in this together, that we all want the same thing. There are differences of opinions, how we should get there. And that's a big part of my job, is to make sure that we're always at that table. But I also expect my imagineering leaders to be at that table too and show up as the expert you are and talk it through. I also have a big belief that constraint brings the best design. Don't think less money, less time or whatever is actually going to end up in a worse idea. It won't. I actually firmly believe that when you're a designer, constraints are a gift because it's going to force you to edit, it's going to force you to innovate, and you're actually going to get to a place that is much better than you would have gone if you had no constraints whatsoever. Right.

Because there are the functional and operational and financial realities. But I do love, and I remember reading a quote that Bob Iger talked about returning the creative decision making to the creator.

That's important.

As you look forward to the future.

That is very important. Now I do believe the creators should appreciate we're a business, we're a public health company and we're trusted with a lot of money flowing through Imagineering itself, by the way. And we owe it to our guests to make sure we give them. At the end of the day, it's got to be that emotional experience. It's got to be the wow. It's got to be stepping into the worlds that they want, with the characters they want and all these kinds of things in a way that is truly worth the money they're spending, but mostly causing the emotional thing. But we do need to appreciate how the business works because it is important, because that's how we're going to get it right. But he is right. And this is what I do. See, I will say this. It is a creatively driven company. It is. And there's a lot of. But I also want to say there's a lot of respect from the operations partners. They actually do defer often to this or this. Okay, that's going to be a little different than we thought might cost More, whatever. Okay, we're going to go with that if you really recommend that. And of course I have a boss, Josh, who also weighs in on these things. But he has that mindset. Bob is brilliant. He has that mindset. By the way, Michael Eisner was that way before Frank died. He got a little lost. I think they were just such a great combo. That was one of the things that was tragic, but Michael had a great instinct for that. He would come in a room and be like, like, this is the thing. This is the one thing you need to do. And it was great. And so I think that's what you want in a company like Disney. You do need someone who has great taste and great creative instincts. Because at the end of the day, that's what everybody is coming for. It's that emotional experience which is done in a creative way, in an innovative way.

And even with all these emerging technologies which are probably gonna fundamentally change the Disney theme park experience, whether it's AI. VR, AR, I'm very excited about whatever.

I'm very excited about AR and XR. I think AR and XR. I have to keep this brief. I see you over here. This is deadly because this is its whole world. We have such a relationship with this thing. It pops up stuff. And I think when people look at your device, I'm guilty as well. You just go there, you forget. And we're all about the shared experience. Once it gets into glasses, which by the way, there's also an inevitability to certain technologies that you. Why fight it? I mean, that's just stupid. So I'm excited because it'll be like a heads up display kind of situation where I won't forget that I'm in this park, that I'm with you, because I'll be looking and you'll always be there. I'm not going into something else. So I'm. And I'm excited about the possibilities of layering, especially more customizable personal experiences. I'm excited that we have invested in Epic Games and that we are going to have an opportunity for certain guests to bridge those worlds and share those worlds and have a kind of relationship between that. Why not? You know what I mean? That's cool. And we have a way now to do it, or we will very shortly have a way to do it that won't be intrusive to guess who aren't. And we're already experimenting with this stuff because I believe done right and I think we can do this right. Well, I know we can. It's just we're going to iterate and we're going to try and we're going to keep doing it. It will actually be a further enhancement and it won't be a detriment. Right now, I think devices are a bit of a detriment. I do believe AI is going to be a big solution to this because when you have natural speech and you just can talk to something and it can just talk back to you again, it allows me to stay in the moment. This is fine when you're like, you're on a plane, you're sitting at home and you're. I just want to play the New York Times games or wordle or something. But when I'm with you, I want to be with you. I mean, I don't even, you know, I always catch myself if I put on the table, I'm like, I just should put that thing away because if it's there, you're like, you know what I mean? It's like Lord of the Rings. I just want that thing. So you just have to like, you know, and just be with the people. And that's what we have created, whether it be the cruise ships or the parks or whatever created these places where the shared experience is. I think it is truly, you know, magical. And it's, you know, I always feel like we end up with these cliches, but, you know, George Lucas, George Lucas said, Tom Fitzgerald shared this with me. I wasn't on the first star tours, but he said they were worried about this one scene being sort of cliche. And George Lucas actually said to Tom, and I think it was Tony Baxter, but he said, you know, they're cliches for a reason. They work. So anyway, well, the foundation's always going.

To be good storytelling, and that's what WDI is based on.

It is absolutely true.

Yeah, Bruce, I could. I had about 700 more questions I would like to ask you. Hopefully we can do this again.

Well, you know, the key to.

I'm really grateful for your time.

No, thank you. This is fun.

Yeah. I appreciate, from a guest perspective, me and my family, we appreciate everything.

Great, great. Where's your next visit?

I'm coming back to. Thank you once again for listening and more importantly, being part of the wwe family and community, I am incredibly and sincerely grateful to you and for you. I know that your time is your most valuable commodity and I appreciate you spending and sharing it with me. I hope you found some magic, a little bit of inspiration in this week's show. Huge thanks. Once again to Bruce Vaughn from Walt Disney Imagineering for his time, which I know is so very limited and so very valuable. I'd love to hear your thoughts about my conversation with Bruce over in the WWE clubhouse at www.comclubhouse. and if you enjoyed this week's show, please help spread the word, share the show, and tell a friend. More importantly, remember to be kind, to choose the good. Have an amazing day and even better tomorrow. So until next time, I love and appreciate you. See ya.

Well, it sounds pretty good.

In fact, that's just the right spirit.