1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,760 HOLLY: Hello, and welcome to this special bonus episode 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:07,640 HOLLY: of Websites Made Simple. In this episode, I am going to 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,080 HOLLY: talk to senior developer Rob 4 00:00:11,080 --> 00:00:14,640 HOLLY: Fisher, and we are tackling an 5 00:00:14,640 --> 00:00:17,840 HOLLY: area of AI. Now, I know that AI is 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:21,440 HOLLY: everywhere and no one needs a whole other podcast about it, 7 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:25,280 HOLLY: but this coincides with some 8 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:29,120 HOLLY: different ways that AI are being used within websites and website 9 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:32,670 HOLLY: technology. And the conversation is so 10 00:00:32,670 --> 00:00:36,350 HOLLY: interesting, I can't wait to share it with you. There 11 00:00:36,350 --> 00:00:39,990 HOLLY: is something to know that my podcast microphone was 12 00:00:39,990 --> 00:00:43,510 HOLLY: not doing its thing during this recording. And 13 00:00:43,590 --> 00:00:47,430 HOLLY: you all know I have an absolutely brilliant podcast producer, Neal Velio of 14 00:00:47,430 --> 00:00:51,150 HOLLY: Podknows Podcasting. He has done absolutely everything he 15 00:00:51,150 --> 00:00:54,790 HOLLY: can to clean this up and to make this a really special 16 00:00:54,790 --> 00:00:58,540 HOLLY: episode. So it might not be the quality that you are used to, but 17 00:00:58,540 --> 00:01:01,980 HOLLY: please do stick it out. You're going to learn some amazing things from Rob 18 00:01:02,220 --> 00:01:03,820 HOLLY: and some great anecdotes. 19 00:01:09,500 --> 00:01:13,300 HOLLY: Obviously, AI is playing such a huge role in 20 00:01:13,300 --> 00:01:17,100 HOLLY: everything these days. You know, with so many AI tools 21 00:01:17,100 --> 00:01:20,580 HOLLY: in every area of running business, whether it's setting up email 22 00:01:20,580 --> 00:01:24,340 HOLLY: funnels, whether it's websites, whether it's putting your iPhone camera 23 00:01:24,340 --> 00:01:27,420 HOLLY: on and the filters coming up, it is absolutely everywhere. 24 00:01:28,190 --> 00:01:31,950 HOLLY: And in some ways that's really great because it's kind of making 25 00:01:31,950 --> 00:01:34,910 HOLLY: our productivity really kind of efficient. 26 00:01:35,710 --> 00:01:39,550 HOLLY: And in other places, it's not quite all 27 00:01:39,550 --> 00:01:42,990 HOLLY: it's made up to be. What I'd really like to focus on is where the 28 00:01:42,990 --> 00:01:46,510 HOLLY: role it plays in websites. I wanted to start off because I have an 29 00:01:46,510 --> 00:01:50,350 HOLLY: episode about Vibe coding and how much Vibe coding absolutely 30 00:01:50,350 --> 00:01:54,010 HOLLY: sucks. It is not my bag at all. And I 31 00:01:54,010 --> 00:01:57,090 HOLLY: always feel like with Vibe coding, the people who are doing it are the people 32 00:01:57,090 --> 00:02:00,770 HOLLY: who have absolutely no business in doing it as well. You know, people 33 00:02:00,770 --> 00:02:04,530 HOLLY: who are like VAs or they're just not working in that tech space 34 00:02:04,930 --> 00:02:08,610 HOLLY: whatsoever. Give me your thoughts on Vibe coding, Rob. Vibe 35 00:02:08,610 --> 00:02:12,130 HOLLY: coding is an interesting phenomenon. Obviously, as a term, it's been around for a couple 36 00:02:12,130 --> 00:02:15,970 HOLLY: of years now. To me, the concept of Vibe coding 37 00:02:16,130 --> 00:02:19,700 HOLLY: in its most literal sense is quite terrifying because you're 38 00:02:19,700 --> 00:02:23,500 HOLLY: essentially allowing people who don't know necessarily what 39 00:02:23,500 --> 00:02:27,100 HOLLY: to expect or what issues to look out for 40 00:02:27,580 --> 00:02:31,420 HOLLY: to build potentially complex software. 41 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:35,260 HOLLY: And as much as I've. I've always been an evangelist for 42 00:02:35,740 --> 00:02:39,460 HOLLY: bringing people into the coding space and learning how to 43 00:02:39,460 --> 00:02:43,260 HOLLY: code, learning how computer systems and servers work. 44 00:02:43,820 --> 00:02:47,480 HOLLY: Vibe coding is kind of a. A shortcut. It's sort 45 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:51,240 HOLLY: of jumping up 10 steps and trying to operate as a senior 46 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,960 HOLLY: developer without knowing the things to look 47 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,560 HOLLY: out for, the red flags, the potential 48 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,279 HOLLY: security flaws that you could introduce simply by 49 00:03:02,279 --> 00:03:06,040 HOLLY: not reminding your prompt to, to include them, 50 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,320 HOLLY: or perhaps the prompt just hallucinates them out. 51 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,120 HOLLY: If you don't have experience in what a software 52 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,880 HOLLY: solution looks like, you don't know what to look for at the end to make 53 00:03:16,880 --> 00:03:20,720 HOLLY: sure it's finished and even how to test it. I think that 54 00:03:20,720 --> 00:03:23,600 HOLLY: is the core of the problem with Vibe coding. 55 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:27,880 HOLLY: Yeah. And I think as software updates, 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:31,240 HOLLY: you have lots of people who say, oh, I've just Vibe Coded my website and 57 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,080 HOLLY: I've done this, that and the other. But software doesn't stay the 58 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,800 HOLLY: same. We're always kind of patching and updating and things like that. 59 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:42,340 HOLLY: And I think often I find people who are 60 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:46,140 HOLLY: saying, oh, I'll just vibe code it. And I often hear people like Vas saying 61 00:03:46,140 --> 00:03:49,380 HOLLY: that, people who are like, oh, I work in Google Workspace and I'm just going 62 00:03:49,380 --> 00:03:53,140 HOLLY: to get Gemini to code this or code that. And you think, God, when this 63 00:03:53,140 --> 00:03:56,420 HOLLY: falls down or when this goes wrong or, you know, when this gets attacked or 64 00:03:56,420 --> 00:03:59,620 HOLLY: whatever, you're just not going to know what to do. And 65 00:04:00,260 --> 00:04:04,100 HOLLY: I, yeah, I personally feel like Vibe coding is not the 66 00:04:04,100 --> 00:04:07,140 HOLLY: right shortcut if you want that really solid structural result. 67 00:04:08,340 --> 00:04:11,620 HOLLY: Yeah. And I mean, on the flip side, you can use 68 00:04:11,940 --> 00:04:14,660 HOLLY: the Vibe coding method as a way of learning. 69 00:04:15,460 --> 00:04:19,220 HOLLY: And I know a lot of younger aspiring coders who are now doing 70 00:04:19,220 --> 00:04:22,180 HOLLY: this. It's a new way into the industry 71 00:04:22,820 --> 00:04:26,620 HOLLY: where they have a companion with them, the AI tool 72 00:04:26,620 --> 00:04:30,180 HOLLY: Claude or OpenAI or whatever, and they're asking it to teach 73 00:04:30,180 --> 00:04:33,800 HOLLY: them and tell them how things work, why they work, and 74 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:37,600 HOLLY: then how they can actually test that themselves. And I think that 75 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:40,440 HOLLY: is a, that is a valid use of 76 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:44,840 HOLLY: generative AI and the ecosystem around that. So I 77 00:04:44,840 --> 00:04:48,400 HOLLY: think, I think it does have a place in the teaching environment and 78 00:04:48,400 --> 00:04:51,880 HOLLY: obviously it has a, it has a place as a tool in a 79 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,560 HOLLY: software developer's toolkit. Generative AI can save 80 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:59,320 HOLLY: a lot of time for a developer who knows what they're doing. 81 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,200 HOLLY: The problem is, for a developer that doesn't know what they're doing, 82 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:07,520 HOLLY: that thing is flipped on its head where actually what you're doing is you're stacking 83 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:11,160 HOLLY: up what we call technical debt. So your Vibe 84 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:14,800 HOLLY: Coded software is a liability in 85 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,600 HOLLY: your platform just waiting to break. And, yeah, that can 86 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,760 HOLLY: cost a lot of time, money and stress further down the line. 87 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,840 HOLLY: Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, I obviously approach, as a website 88 00:05:25,840 --> 00:05:29,440 HOLLY: designer, I approach things always from a design point of view and, 89 00:05:29,900 --> 00:05:33,700 HOLLY: you know, coming across more and more Vibe Coded websites. And as 90 00:05:33,700 --> 00:05:37,340 HOLLY: you know, I won an award for my user journeys, my work with user 91 00:05:37,340 --> 00:05:39,980 HOLLY: journeys and stuff. And that's what 92 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:44,620 HOLLY: vibe coding never seems to do, is give a really good user journey. 93 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:48,460 HOLLY: It doesn't have that psychology behind it. And unless you're 94 00:05:48,460 --> 00:05:52,180 HOLLY: putting the prompts in there, One of the things that we look at 95 00:05:52,180 --> 00:05:56,020 HOLLY: building in once we've done our hero section and stuff, is looking at the kind 96 00:05:56,020 --> 00:05:59,780 HOLLY: of Z layout, because we know how people read websites. You know, they go 97 00:05:59,780 --> 00:06:03,470 HOLLY: from left to right, up to down, that sort of thing. And it's all those 98 00:06:04,030 --> 00:06:07,870 HOLLY: things, it's like the. You don't know what you don't know. And often, 99 00:06:08,270 --> 00:06:12,070 HOLLY: like you say, with putting in the prompts, I find there's even only 100 00:06:12,070 --> 00:06:15,750 HOLLY: so far that people go with their prompts, you know, especially if they're not a 101 00:06:15,750 --> 00:06:19,510 HOLLY: web designer who's vibe coding a web design. And I 102 00:06:19,510 --> 00:06:22,990 HOLLY: like that. When we spoke about this before that you were saying about, 103 00:06:23,150 --> 00:06:26,970 HOLLY: you know, ultimately AI just doesn't have a brain, so it can't kind of take 104 00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:30,010 HOLLY: it from that psychology point of view. That's right. So 105 00:06:30,410 --> 00:06:34,250 HOLLY: essentially your. The LLMs, the 106 00:06:34,570 --> 00:06:38,250 HOLLY: generative AI systems that we've got at the moment, 107 00:06:38,490 --> 00:06:42,250 HOLLY: do one job, and that's language processing 108 00:06:42,410 --> 00:06:46,250 HOLLY: on an insane scale. And what that means is they 109 00:06:46,250 --> 00:06:49,770 HOLLY: are essentially probability engines that guess the next word. 110 00:06:50,010 --> 00:06:53,650 HOLLY: I mean, it's stupidly technical. There's a lot of maths behind it that I don't 111 00:06:53,650 --> 00:06:55,810 HOLLY: understand. I read the crib notes, 112 00:06:57,650 --> 00:07:01,090 HOLLY: I like to read them out to you. So there's a lot of, there's a 113 00:07:01,090 --> 00:07:04,690 HOLLY: lot of stuff in there. Essentially you're dealing with a black box that is 114 00:07:04,690 --> 00:07:08,490 HOLLY: full of words, phrases, even, to a certain 115 00:07:08,490 --> 00:07:12,210 HOLLY: degree, meanings. But they're all connected together by chains 116 00:07:12,210 --> 00:07:15,850 HOLLY: of probability over lots of levels. What they're 117 00:07:15,850 --> 00:07:19,690 HOLLY: able to do, because they've been trained on the Internet, 118 00:07:19,690 --> 00:07:23,390 HOLLY: they've been trained on human language that's been put together over 119 00:07:23,390 --> 00:07:26,870 HOLLY: the last few thousand years. They're able to pretty 120 00:07:26,870 --> 00:07:29,950 HOLLY: accurately produce strings of 121 00:07:30,670 --> 00:07:34,230 HOLLY: text, strings of language that make sense in a given 122 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,550 HOLLY: scenario, which is why you're able to give it a prompt 123 00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:41,190 HOLLY: of a certain amount of words, and it will give you an 124 00:07:41,190 --> 00:07:44,950 HOLLY: answer that looks like, for all intents and purposes, that 125 00:07:44,950 --> 00:07:48,590 HOLLY: it was written by a human. It's very, very clever 126 00:07:49,220 --> 00:07:52,420 HOLLY: technology. I mean, we must remember that this is, this is 127 00:07:52,580 --> 00:07:55,780 HOLLY: cutting edge stuff. But as you say, 128 00:07:56,260 --> 00:07:59,900 HOLLY: it doesn't have a brain. It is literally a mathematical 129 00:07:59,900 --> 00:08:03,700 HOLLY: equation that's being called many times over every 130 00:08:03,700 --> 00:08:07,180 HOLLY: time you give it a prompt. And the law of 131 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:10,900 HOLLY: probability Means that most of the time it gives you something 132 00:08:10,900 --> 00:08:14,700 HOLLY: that's relevant or useful, but there's always that 133 00:08:14,700 --> 00:08:18,280 HOLLY: there's a non zero chance it's going to give you what they call a 134 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:22,080 HOLLY: hallucination, which is where the, the answer to the 135 00:08:22,080 --> 00:08:25,920 HOLLY: prompt is unexpected. It's made a connection 136 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:29,760 HOLLY: somewhere on probabilities that doesn't make sense, which often 137 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:32,560 HOLLY: like paragraphs of text that can go 138 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,760 HOLLY: unnoticed. The problem becomes worse in things like code, which 139 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,400 HOLLY: are very rigidly structured, where one 140 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,760 HOLLY: single bit out of place can break the entire structure. 141 00:08:44,170 --> 00:08:47,970 HOLLY: And it's also, it's also a little bit more defined in visual stuff as 142 00:08:47,970 --> 00:08:51,570 HOLLY: well. You know, a prompt for a photorealistic 143 00:08:51,570 --> 00:08:55,250 HOLLY: image can often have quite a few issues. Although it is getting 144 00:08:55,250 --> 00:08:59,010 HOLLY: better, it's harder to spot the issues, but they're never going to 145 00:08:59,010 --> 00:09:02,330 HOLLY: go away. I've seen people, people doing this and their 146 00:09:02,330 --> 00:09:05,690 HOLLY: prompts are usually suspiciously short. 147 00:09:06,170 --> 00:09:09,410 HOLLY: You know, it will be like create me an app that tells me what the 148 00:09:09,410 --> 00:09:13,050 HOLLY: weather is and you know, make it, make it blue and don't make any 149 00:09:13,050 --> 00:09:16,840 HOLLY: mistakes. And that will be their prompt. You're just kind of rolling the Magic 150 00:09:16,840 --> 00:09:20,480 HOLLY: 8 Ball for what you're going to get at that point. Yeah. Whereas when you 151 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,280 HOLLY: have software engineers writing prompts, these things are 152 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:28,040 HOLLY: pages long with supported document. Yeah. Submitted 153 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,520 HOLLY: with it. While you can get an answer with a very short prompt, 154 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:35,120 HOLLY: you really need to feed it as much information and 155 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:39,000 HOLLY: boundaries as possible so that you stand a chance of actually getting 156 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,780 HOLLY: something useful and maintainable. And I think that does apply 157 00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:46,580 HOLLY: also to content creation, although I don't really do 158 00:09:46,580 --> 00:09:50,260 HOLLY: that. I think a short prompt. I'll give me a blog on why AI 159 00:09:50,260 --> 00:09:54,100 HOLLY: is cool. You're not in control of what you get. You need 160 00:09:54,100 --> 00:09:57,940 HOLLY: to give it a summary and a plan for what you want it to talk 161 00:09:57,940 --> 00:10:01,100 HOLLY: about and assuming you don't just want it to make it up. Because 162 00:10:01,260 --> 00:10:04,780 HOLLY: AI, generative AI, the way it works, will read 163 00:10:05,340 --> 00:10:09,070 HOLLY: things like satire on articles or blatantly made 164 00:10:09,070 --> 00:10:12,350 HOLLY: up or wrong things and it puts them together with 165 00:10:12,910 --> 00:10:16,430 HOLLY: everything that's fact because it's got no way of distinguishing it. So yeah, I mean 166 00:10:16,590 --> 00:10:20,190 HOLLY: the prompt is very important and it needs to be 167 00:10:20,190 --> 00:10:22,830 HOLLY: as detailed as you need the output to be. 168 00:10:27,470 --> 00:10:30,590 HOLLY: When you said about giving prompt 169 00:10:30,750 --> 00:10:34,570 HOLLY: boundaries, can you talk to me a little bit more about what 170 00:10:34,570 --> 00:10:37,730 HOLLY: you mean by that? That's in, in essence a 171 00:10:38,050 --> 00:10:41,650 HOLLY: way of telling the generative AI 172 00:10:42,450 --> 00:10:45,890 HOLLY: where its limits are. You know, it's, it's not foolproof, 173 00:10:46,290 --> 00:10:50,050 HOLLY: but it, when I talk about boundaries, I'm saying things 174 00:10:50,050 --> 00:10:52,930 HOLLY: like, well, we're gonna. So keep it in the programming world. 175 00:10:53,650 --> 00:10:57,330 HOLLY: We're gonna write in this language and we want to create 176 00:10:57,570 --> 00:11:01,000 HOLLY: our software in under three modules. 177 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:05,120 HOLLY: Keep it down to a handful of files and keep 178 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,280 HOLLY: your methods short with content 179 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,960 HOLLY: creation. You might talk a little bit about. This is the topic we're going to 180 00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,760 HOLLY: be talking about. We're not going to touch this list of topics at all. 181 00:11:15,760 --> 00:11:19,560 HOLLY: So you're giving it a negative prompt. But we want to focus on why 182 00:11:19,560 --> 00:11:23,240 HOLLY: this thing is good, the cost, you know, here's my notes that 183 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,190 HOLLY: I've given it. Stay on topic. Do not follow web 184 00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:30,670 HOLLY: links and go off into the grass. You know, so that, 185 00:11:30,670 --> 00:11:34,030 HOLLY: that's. Those are your. Stay on topic. Yeah, 186 00:11:34,350 --> 00:11:38,030 HOLLY: stay on top. Exactly, exactly. And generative AI does 187 00:11:38,030 --> 00:11:41,630 HOLLY: need those little nudges. But it is quite funny 188 00:11:41,630 --> 00:11:45,150 HOLLY: really, because the way we as 189 00:11:45,150 --> 00:11:48,870 HOLLY: humans are talking to generative AI and this is, this is the same 190 00:11:48,870 --> 00:11:52,620 HOLLY: for the big companies, OpenAI and Anthropic, which we, we got 191 00:11:52,620 --> 00:11:56,380 HOLLY: to see a little bit of, of how Anthropic works 192 00:11:56,380 --> 00:12:00,020 HOLLY: with their LLM network from the code leak, 193 00:12:00,420 --> 00:12:03,940 HOLLY: the way they are talking to their AI, so their system prompts, 194 00:12:04,180 --> 00:12:07,780 HOLLY: they're almost pleading with it to not make 195 00:12:07,780 --> 00:12:11,140 HOLLY: mistakes. Essentially. You know, what we, what we laugh at the vibe coders 196 00:12:11,300 --> 00:12:14,980 HOLLY: for, it's like, you know, now you need to answer politely 197 00:12:14,980 --> 00:12:18,340 HOLLY: and you need to, you know, please do not use vulgarity and 198 00:12:18,820 --> 00:12:22,340 HOLLY: answer us correctly. Do not lie. They're putting all this sort of stuff 199 00:12:22,660 --> 00:12:26,340 HOLLY: into the system prompt and essentially just hoping for the best. And 200 00:12:26,900 --> 00:12:30,660 HOLLY: for the most part it works. Yeah, but there's no, there's no way 201 00:12:30,660 --> 00:12:34,460 HOLLY: to verify the output that you get. So it is, it is 202 00:12:34,460 --> 00:12:38,100 HOLLY: a roll of the dice. And I suspect with a lot of the 203 00:12:38,420 --> 00:12:42,180 HOLLY: gen AI tools what they do is they feed the output back 204 00:12:42,180 --> 00:12:45,700 HOLLY: in again with another prompt and ask it questions. Is this 205 00:12:45,700 --> 00:12:49,530 HOLLY: okay? You know, is it lying? Does it match the prompt that the user's 206 00:12:49,530 --> 00:12:53,330 HOLLY: given us? And this, that's more profound with the image 207 00:12:53,410 --> 00:12:57,250 HOLLY: generation side of things. When these tools were released, 208 00:12:57,250 --> 00:13:01,050 HOLLY: you had big problems in that people could just ask it for 209 00:13:01,050 --> 00:13:04,650 HOLLY: anything. And when you give the Internet a 210 00:13:04,650 --> 00:13:08,170 HOLLY: image generator that you can ask for anything, people are obviously generating 211 00:13:08,170 --> 00:13:12,010 HOLLY: pictures of cats everywhere. And what they quickly found was, okay, we can't just, 212 00:13:12,010 --> 00:13:15,260 HOLLY: we can't give people unfettered access to this. So what they do 213 00:13:15,660 --> 00:13:19,500 HOLLY: is they take a prompt, they generate the image 214 00:13:19,580 --> 00:13:23,060 HOLLY: and then they use an LLM to look at the image before it gets sent 215 00:13:23,060 --> 00:13:26,460 HOLLY: to the user and say, is this safe? Is this child 216 00:13:26,460 --> 00:13:29,740 HOLLY: friendly? And, you know, and it may, I mean, we are 217 00:13:29,740 --> 00:13:33,540 HOLLY: oversimplifying. It may go through several steps of that, but it's using another LLM 218 00:13:33,540 --> 00:13:37,340 HOLLY: to do it. Yeah. Which means that no matter what they do, they're 219 00:13:37,340 --> 00:13:40,700 HOLLY: just kicking the can down the road. At some point someone will come up with 220 00:13:40,700 --> 00:13:44,100 HOLLY: a prompt that can give them the output they want without the system 221 00:13:44,100 --> 00:13:47,860 HOLLY: noticing. Yeah, that's, that's the funny world of, of prompts and 222 00:13:47,940 --> 00:13:51,740 HOLLY: generating text and images. Weren't you telling a story the other 223 00:13:51,740 --> 00:13:55,500 HOLLY: day in the Sparks group about how like, customers were on 224 00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:59,100 HOLLY: a chatbot and they managed to persuade the chatbot to 225 00:13:59,100 --> 00:14:02,780 HOLLY: basically give them 100% discount code or something like that? There's been a few of 226 00:14:02,780 --> 00:14:06,570 HOLLY: those. And this does actually play into the, I suppose, the dangers and 227 00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:10,410 HOLLY: the warnings that go with agentic AI and, and how much 228 00:14:10,410 --> 00:14:12,890 HOLLY: permission you give it. So this, this particular 229 00:14:13,690 --> 00:14:17,210 HOLLY: instance was a chat bot on a website, an e commerce system, 230 00:14:17,930 --> 00:14:21,329 HOLLY: and the chat bot was allowed to talk to 231 00:14:21,329 --> 00:14:24,890 HOLLY: customers and find out what their needs were. And if it felt that 232 00:14:25,130 --> 00:14:28,090 HOLLY: it was necessary, it could offer a discount. 233 00:14:29,210 --> 00:14:32,650 HOLLY: It's like an arbitrary discount, 10% or something, like something to sweeten the deal. 234 00:14:33,330 --> 00:14:37,170 HOLLY: One particular astute customer who probably knew 235 00:14:37,170 --> 00:14:40,810 HOLLY: a little bit about AI and what was going on, managed to prompt this 236 00:14:40,810 --> 00:14:44,650 HOLLY: thing and convince it that no, it was wrong, it didn't 237 00:14:44,650 --> 00:14:48,450 HOLLY: have any boundaries and it was allowed to offer any kind of discounts it wanted. 238 00:14:48,769 --> 00:14:51,970 HOLLY: And I think, I don't think it was 100% discount, I think it was 85% 239 00:14:52,050 --> 00:14:55,490 HOLLY: or something. But this shop was selling things for like 240 00:14:55,490 --> 00:14:58,930 HOLLY: $10,000. You know, it was big industry stuff. 241 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:02,880 HOLLY: And then, and then what happened? So he was able to complete the checkout, make 242 00:15:02,880 --> 00:15:06,600 HOLLY: the payment, which of course was flagged up by a human 243 00:15:06,600 --> 00:15:10,160 HOLLY: once they saw the order, like, oh, my goodness, they've bought this stuff and they've 244 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:13,840 HOLLY: got thousands and thousands of pounds off. You know, this is, this is going to 245 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,640 HOLLY: tank us as a company. And they tried to revoke 246 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:20,480 HOLLY: the order, but the customer pushed back. And 247 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,690 HOLLY: he may actually still be in court with this because he has a 248 00:15:25,690 --> 00:15:29,210 HOLLY: legal case that their website literally 249 00:15:29,210 --> 00:15:32,730 HOLLY: offered it to him. You know, it's, it's very sketchy 250 00:15:33,130 --> 00:15:36,330 HOLLY: where you are positioned legally. 251 00:15:36,730 --> 00:15:39,930 HOLLY: If your AI agent promises something 252 00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:43,970 HOLLY: and you decide you don't want to deliver it, but you've programmed that 253 00:15:43,970 --> 00:15:47,370 HOLLY: AI agent and the loopholes are then yours, 254 00:15:47,770 --> 00:15:51,410 HOLLY: you know, it's very difficult to argue the, oops, that was a 255 00:15:51,410 --> 00:15:55,070 HOLLY: mistake. Yeah. And that's happening more and more as 256 00:15:55,070 --> 00:15:58,790 HOLLY: people perhaps adopt this technology too quickly without 257 00:15:58,790 --> 00:16:00,510 HOLLY: really understanding the risks. 258 00:16:05,470 --> 00:16:09,030 HOLLY: People who have been listening to the podcast for a while will know how I 259 00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:11,950 HOLLY: feel about this software Elementor. And 260 00:16:13,070 --> 00:16:16,830 HOLLY: quite a while ago now I did an episode called, you know, stop 261 00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:20,630 HOLLY: using this tool for building your websites. It's about Elementor. We will link it into 262 00:16:20,630 --> 00:16:23,950 HOLLY: the show notes. But as I have the expert here, 263 00:16:24,350 --> 00:16:27,630 HOLLY: let's talk about the AI generated code and Elementor. 264 00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:31,150 HOLLY: A lot of dev houses are now taking on this AI first 265 00:16:31,630 --> 00:16:34,870 HOLLY: approach where they're essentially farming lots of 266 00:16:34,870 --> 00:16:38,710 HOLLY: agentic systems that are generating new features 267 00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:42,510 HOLLY: based on prompts. For better or for worse, that 268 00:16:42,510 --> 00:16:46,110 HOLLY: is the way these companies are doing it because they think it's faster, 269 00:16:46,750 --> 00:16:50,190 HOLLY: they think they're going to get things shipped a lot quicker. 270 00:16:50,510 --> 00:16:54,270 HOLLY: The problem that we're seeing is the initial jump 271 00:16:54,270 --> 00:16:57,710 HOLLY: to that sort of thing has caused a lot of high profile 272 00:16:57,950 --> 00:17:01,510 HOLLY: disasters. I mean, in Elementor you're seeing it with a 273 00:17:01,510 --> 00:17:04,590 HOLLY: broken plugin, but with the bigger companies, 274 00:17:05,070 --> 00:17:08,870 HOLLY: Amazon, they have in recent years got 275 00:17:08,870 --> 00:17:12,570 HOLLY: rid of a lot of their DevOps engineers. We had last October, October 276 00:17:12,690 --> 00:17:16,410 HOLLY: 2025, we had the, I think the biggest outage of AWS ever. 277 00:17:16,650 --> 00:17:20,250 HOLLY: Yeah. Where their primary region went down. So 278 00:17:20,490 --> 00:17:23,370 HOLLY: AWS West, West 1 went down, 279 00:17:24,090 --> 00:17:27,770 HOLLY: which is unheard of. AWS doesn't go down on that scale. 280 00:17:28,490 --> 00:17:31,610 HOLLY: That doesn't happen. And it makes you wonder 281 00:17:32,410 --> 00:17:36,010 HOLLY: what went wrong, what happened? And you know, did they give 282 00:17:36,410 --> 00:17:40,220 HOLLY: generative AI a little bit too much rope? That again. 283 00:17:40,220 --> 00:17:43,940 HOLLY: We've also had a series of Windows updates this year 284 00:17:44,500 --> 00:17:48,020 HOLLY: that have caused some significant problems for 285 00:17:48,420 --> 00:17:52,020 HOLLY: users. Microsoft again have laid off lots of people 286 00:17:52,340 --> 00:17:56,180 HOLLY: in hopes that AI is going to save them a fortune. This is 287 00:17:56,180 --> 00:17:59,220 HOLLY: just a necessary step in building caution. 288 00:18:00,100 --> 00:18:03,020 HOLLY: So companies that are, at the end of the day, they just want to make 289 00:18:03,020 --> 00:18:06,580 HOLLY: money, they're going to want to reduce their outgoings as much as possible. 290 00:18:07,420 --> 00:18:10,700 HOLLY: They've been sold a dream by 291 00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:14,900 HOLLY: anthropic and OpenAI of this is going 292 00:18:14,900 --> 00:18:18,460 HOLLY: to replace developers, it's going to replace system admins, it's going to replace 293 00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:22,540 HOLLY: content writers. This is, you know, it's better. It's like, it's like having 294 00:18:23,340 --> 00:18:27,180 HOLLY: 10 people with PhDs all in different subjects in your office. 295 00:18:27,900 --> 00:18:31,660 HOLLY: Whereas I'm not saying that those were lies, but it 296 00:18:31,660 --> 00:18:35,140 HOLLY: was definitely marketing speak and hype. Yeah. 297 00:18:35,140 --> 00:18:38,820 HOLLY: And that's. And that's what's been bought into. Because the, the 298 00:18:38,820 --> 00:18:42,580 HOLLY: fact of the matter is these tools, having, having worked with them 299 00:18:42,580 --> 00:18:46,340 HOLLY: myself, are not necessarily on the 300 00:18:46,500 --> 00:18:50,340 HOLLY: senior level, they're more on the junior level. Yeah, right. So 301 00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:53,860 HOLLY: while they, while they have access to the sum of human 302 00:18:53,860 --> 00:18:57,300 HOLLY: knowledge, the way that they can pull it together 303 00:18:57,380 --> 00:19:01,140 HOLLY: is, is much more limited. They can give you explainers for things 304 00:19:01,140 --> 00:19:04,380 HOLLY: and they can pretty much do anything you ask them to do. 305 00:19:04,780 --> 00:19:08,620 HOLLY: They don't know why. They also don't know your intent and 306 00:19:08,700 --> 00:19:12,500 HOLLY: things like that. So they're not an expert in the sense that an expert would 307 00:19:12,500 --> 00:19:16,220 HOLLY: push back and say, you know, they say to me, Robert, 308 00:19:16,220 --> 00:19:19,620 HOLLY: you're being an idiot. This is a really dumb approach. You don't want to do 309 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:23,260 HOLLY: this. You actually want to do this route instead. Over 310 00:19:23,260 --> 00:19:27,020 HOLLY: here, a generative AI system wouldn't do that. It would go, oh, you've told 311 00:19:27,020 --> 00:19:30,700 HOLLY: me to do that. That's a great idea. I will push ahead. You know, 312 00:19:31,500 --> 00:19:34,700 HOLLY: while at the same time while constantly telling you you're a genius 313 00:19:35,260 --> 00:19:38,940 HOLLY: and you know, and all that sort of stuff. I think we've got a rough 314 00:19:38,940 --> 00:19:42,740 HOLLY: ride ahead of us, hopefully over the next few months, worst, over 315 00:19:42,740 --> 00:19:45,900 HOLLY: the next few years of high 316 00:19:45,980 --> 00:19:49,540 HOLLY: profile disasters due 317 00:19:49,540 --> 00:19:53,340 HOLLY: to letting AI do too much without 318 00:19:53,340 --> 00:19:57,180 HOLLY: human control. And I think Elementor is 319 00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:59,180 HOLLY: just the tip of the iceberg for that. 320 00:20:02,540 --> 00:20:06,260 HOLLY: Something that drives me a little bit crazy that I'm seeing a lot and 321 00:20:06,260 --> 00:20:09,500 HOLLY: again, kind of moving into that Vibe coding chat again is 322 00:20:10,220 --> 00:20:13,580 HOLLY: designers who have a bit of coding knowledge 323 00:20:14,700 --> 00:20:18,220 HOLLY: using Vibe coding to create plugins, who really have no business 324 00:20:18,220 --> 00:20:21,980 HOLLY: using Vibe coding to create plugins. And the reason 325 00:20:21,980 --> 00:20:25,510 HOLLY: that I have such an issue with this is of course a 326 00:20:25,510 --> 00:20:28,910 HOLLY: plugin is just part of the ecosystem of a website. Yeah, We've got 327 00:20:29,630 --> 00:20:33,310 HOLLY: the WordPress, we've got the theme, we've got everything else going on there and 328 00:20:33,390 --> 00:20:37,190 HOLLY: we need to be really, really sure about what we are putting on the websites, 329 00:20:37,190 --> 00:20:40,910 HOLLY: not only because of how safe and secure they are 330 00:20:40,910 --> 00:20:44,430 HOLLY: for the website, but how they play well with the other tech and 331 00:20:44,750 --> 00:20:48,550 HOLLY: stuff like that. And so when people like, oh, I, I'm in 332 00:20:48,550 --> 00:20:52,260 HOLLY: some web design groups and people like, oh, I've vibe coded these plugins, I'm going to 333 00:20:52,260 --> 00:20:55,780 HOLLY: be selling them to developers. And I'm like, and what happens 334 00:20:56,020 --> 00:20:59,860 HOLLY: to this plugin when there's a WordPress update or there's a 335 00:20:59,860 --> 00:21:03,620 HOLLY: new version of PHP released or you know, what happens to your plugin then? 336 00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:07,420 HOLLY: And it just feels like a house of cards. Gotta say those two things, those 337 00:21:07,420 --> 00:21:11,100 HOLLY: are legitimate problems that developers have to deal 338 00:21:11,100 --> 00:21:14,740 HOLLY: with. And you know, that's always the question, like what, what 339 00:21:14,740 --> 00:21:18,100 HOLLY: happens when, when WordPress updates then are you going to be here 340 00:21:18,100 --> 00:21:21,930 HOLLY: maintaining this plugin or is it you know, it's, it's something we've had forever 341 00:21:21,930 --> 00:21:25,610 HOLLY: with WordPress. Yeah. And now we've given the keys to build these things 342 00:21:25,610 --> 00:21:29,410 HOLLY: to literally everybody and everyone and their dog can now, can 343 00:21:29,410 --> 00:21:33,130 HOLLY: now make a WordPress plugin. Which is great. You know, it's, it's always 344 00:21:33,130 --> 00:21:36,770 HOLLY: said that WordPress itself is an 345 00:21:36,770 --> 00:21:39,970 HOLLY: extremely secure, extremely efficient platform 346 00:21:40,290 --> 00:21:43,730 HOLLY: to, to run your website from, to use as a content management 347 00:21:43,810 --> 00:21:47,410 HOLLY: system. But the moment you put one theme and one 348 00:21:47,410 --> 00:21:51,250 HOLLY: plugin in there, you're, you're essentially just opening 349 00:21:51,250 --> 00:21:54,590 HOLLY: wide the door for malware. While the WordPress 350 00:21:54,590 --> 00:21:58,270 HOLLY: ecosystem itself is maintained by Automattic, 351 00:21:58,750 --> 00:22:02,590 HOLLY: the big company behind WordPress and you know, they're pretty good at 352 00:22:02,670 --> 00:22:06,430 HOLLY: keeping it secure and patched. Literally anybody in the world can create 353 00:22:06,430 --> 00:22:09,070 HOLLY: a plugin or a theme. And the 354 00:22:09,630 --> 00:22:13,270 HOLLY: structure of WordPress is such that as you've already 355 00:22:13,270 --> 00:22:16,950 HOLLY: said, those themes and plugins have free reign 356 00:22:16,950 --> 00:22:20,510 HOLLY: over the entire code base and also over your hosting. 357 00:22:21,230 --> 00:22:25,040 HOLLY: Just to run. Because it's a traditional PHP system, 358 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,160 HOLLY: you're adding PHP code to the server as part 359 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,160 HOLLY: of your, your plugin. That code can do anything 360 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,480 HOLLY: within that hosting environment. It's mitigated more 361 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:40,120 HOLLY: now, but in the older days of WordPress you'd have a bad 362 00:22:40,120 --> 00:22:43,800 HOLLY: plugin would infect a shared hosting service and it could 363 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,360 HOLLY: jump to other WordPress instances on that same 364 00:22:47,360 --> 00:22:50,970 HOLLY: hosting. We've managed to sort of bolt the door on, 365 00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:54,530 HOLLY: on, on that sort of thing but it's, the problem is still 366 00:22:54,530 --> 00:22:58,330 HOLLY: there. You, you install a plugin, even one that looks safe today, 367 00:22:58,810 --> 00:23:02,490 HOLLY: could receive an update down the road that makes 368 00:23:02,490 --> 00:23:05,770 HOLLY: it a Trojan horse for something that is a big deal. 369 00:23:06,250 --> 00:23:10,090 HOLLY: Say you've got a plugin that, I don't know, adds a, adds 370 00:23:10,090 --> 00:23:13,210 HOLLY: a form to one page, a contact form, 371 00:23:13,770 --> 00:23:17,530 HOLLY: which is great, you use it, use the short code that's wonderful. But that, 372 00:23:17,610 --> 00:23:21,290 HOLLY: that plugins code if changed, could 373 00:23:21,290 --> 00:23:25,010 HOLLY: actually do much more wide reaching things around WordPress. The 374 00:23:25,010 --> 00:23:28,330 HOLLY: plugin is active, which means all of its code is running. So 375 00:23:28,410 --> 00:23:32,250 HOLLY: what's to stop a malicious change coming in that 376 00:23:32,409 --> 00:23:35,650 HOLLY: changes all the passwords or starts 377 00:23:35,650 --> 00:23:39,290 HOLLY: emailing out from that website, spammy messages or 378 00:23:39,530 --> 00:23:43,340 HOLLY: stealing people's credit card information. Once you've got the plugin 379 00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:46,980 HOLLY: installed and it's auto updating, it's too late. You're not 380 00:23:46,980 --> 00:23:50,340 HOLLY: very, you're not looking at the code changes that come in, you know, because this 381 00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:54,100 HOLLY: isn't a development pipeline. This is a thing that 382 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:57,340 HOLLY: people think of more like Windows Update or something like that or you know, my 383 00:23:57,340 --> 00:24:00,740 HOLLY: browser's got to Update. So I've got to update my plugins. Yeah. And 384 00:24:00,900 --> 00:24:03,940 HOLLY: goodness knows where this code is coming from. And 385 00:24:04,740 --> 00:24:08,060 HOLLY: up until now it's kind of been the only way to do it. Going back 386 00:24:08,060 --> 00:24:11,660 HOLLY: to kind of how plugins can destabilize a 387 00:24:11,660 --> 00:24:15,300 HOLLY: whole system. You know, in my time I've seen some pretty major plugins 388 00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:19,060 HOLLY: do that, like WP Rocket, you know, which has millions of installs 389 00:24:19,220 --> 00:24:22,580 HOLLY: that had malicious code put into a few years ago 390 00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:26,180 HOLLY: and last year or the year before, all in one migration, which, 391 00:24:26,420 --> 00:24:30,140 HOLLY: you know, suddenly had everyone's like used by everybody there. Because 392 00:24:30,140 --> 00:24:33,620 HOLLY: people aren't just using it for migrations, they're using it for backups. And, you know, 393 00:24:33,620 --> 00:24:37,360 HOLLY: we use it with, on our websites and stuff. So. And these are, 394 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,280 HOLLY: you know, plugin companies who have huge teams of developers behind them, making 395 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,560 HOLLY: sure that they're all up and running and doing their things as well. 396 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,560 HOLLY: So, yes, those kind of people who think about vibe code and plugin and 397 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:52,320 HOLLY: make some money out of it, hopefully this conversation will have put them off 398 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,200 HOLLY: that people who want to create a plugin. You can use 399 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,960 HOLLY: AI tools to help you to understand how plugins work and 400 00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:03,520 HOLLY: maybe mess around with them as an entry into that sort of thing. 401 00:25:03,970 --> 00:25:07,490 HOLLY: I don't want to discourage people from experimenting, 402 00:25:07,970 --> 00:25:11,690 HOLLY: but I think it must be held in the context of, okay, 403 00:25:11,690 --> 00:25:15,290 HOLLY: I don't really know what I'm doing, I'm using this AI to do it. 404 00:25:15,290 --> 00:25:18,930 HOLLY: There are going to be problems. If I think my plugin is a good idea 405 00:25:18,930 --> 00:25:21,890 HOLLY: that should be rolled out to the marketplace, then 406 00:25:22,690 --> 00:25:25,090 HOLLY: whatever you do, get a software person involved, 407 00:25:26,370 --> 00:25:30,130 HOLLY: prototype it in AI and mess around with it locally 408 00:25:30,130 --> 00:25:33,330 HOLLY: or on your website. But. But before you 409 00:25:34,530 --> 00:25:35,810 HOLLY: bless the world with 410 00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:41,970 HOLLY: your creation, make sure that it's been properly 411 00:25:42,610 --> 00:25:45,810 HOLLY: evaluated and perhaps bits rewritten to be more 412 00:25:46,130 --> 00:25:49,250 HOLLY: consistent. But yeah, get an expert on it. That's what I'd say. 413 00:25:52,850 --> 00:25:56,570 HOLLY: One final thing before you go. Actually, we haven't talked in 414 00:25:56,570 --> 00:26:00,210 HOLLY: this episode about the introduction of AI in WordPress 7. 415 00:26:00,370 --> 00:26:02,890 HOLLY: I don't know if you want to talk about that a little bit as we've 416 00:26:02,890 --> 00:26:06,590 HOLLY: talked quite a lot about WordPress. Shall we? There's. Yeah, I mean, this is. 417 00:26:06,590 --> 00:26:09,070 HOLLY: It's almost a disappointing thing to talk about because 418 00:26:10,190 --> 00:26:13,630 HOLLY: while we're about to make the switch to WordPress 419 00:26:13,630 --> 00:26:17,470 HOLLY: 7.0, which any major release is terrifying 420 00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:21,830 HOLLY: because you always find that there's plugins that are lagging behind that just don't 421 00:26:21,830 --> 00:26:25,150 HOLLY: work with the new version and, and things like that, but 422 00:26:25,630 --> 00:26:28,590 HOLLY: what they're actually doing with AI is 423 00:26:29,150 --> 00:26:32,900 HOLLY: it's kind of cool, but also it's not 424 00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:36,180 HOLLY: going to change anyone's lives in the short term and I'll, I'll, I'll tell you 425 00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:39,980 HOLLY: why. So there, there are some major restructuring 426 00:26:40,620 --> 00:26:44,220 HOLLY: things going on in WordPress 7. But what they're doing 427 00:26:44,220 --> 00:26:47,580 HOLLY: is they're making it easier to integrate with 428 00:26:48,220 --> 00:26:52,020 HOLLY: AI APIs, which are the little connectors for software to 429 00:26:52,020 --> 00:26:55,420 HOLLY: talk to each other. So they're, they're building natively 430 00:26:55,660 --> 00:26:59,160 HOLLY: into, into WordPress these connectors. So third 431 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,880 HOLLY: party tools that want to introduce AI can more 432 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,440 HOLLY: easily and more efficiently do it. That's essentially 433 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,160 HOLLY: the changes. So when we update to WordPress 7, we're not going 434 00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,600 HOLLY: to see suddenly a load of AI 435 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:17,160 HOLLY: tools all over the screen. It will be one of those updates 436 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,920 HOLLY: where it's like, but I thought there was AI stuff. But actually it's all the 437 00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,120 HOLLY: code underneath supporting the use of that technology 438 00:27:24,780 --> 00:27:28,420 HOLLY: that's been implemented. Once that's in, what you can expect to see 439 00:27:28,420 --> 00:27:32,020 HOLLY: is every plugin and his frog suddenly implementing 440 00:27:32,020 --> 00:27:35,820 HOLLY: some kind of AI tool. It's going to be the wild west 441 00:27:35,820 --> 00:27:39,420 HOLLY: for a little bit. You're going to wonder why, I don't know, your caching 442 00:27:39,420 --> 00:27:42,860 HOLLY: plugin is suddenly processing everything through AI or 443 00:27:43,020 --> 00:27:46,460 HOLLY: you know, that, that kind of thing. But it's setting the 444 00:27:46,460 --> 00:27:49,900 HOLLY: stage for WordPress to go into this new world of, 445 00:27:50,310 --> 00:27:54,110 HOLLY: okay, we support AI natively. You're not having to write all of the 446 00:27:54,110 --> 00:27:57,670 HOLLY: API connections yourself. You can just talk to the WordPress 447 00:27:58,550 --> 00:28:02,230 HOLLY: API that deals with AI. It's a tongue twister, isn't it? 448 00:28:02,390 --> 00:28:06,109 HOLLY: But I'm glad you're one side, not me. It makes it a lot 449 00:28:06,109 --> 00:28:09,910 HOLLY: easier to do that. So for me, the more exciting things that are 450 00:28:09,910 --> 00:28:13,270 HOLLY: coming in WordPress 7 are relating to the native block editor. 451 00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:17,310 HOLLY: The react code, which is what the block editor runs in at the 452 00:28:17,310 --> 00:28:20,930 HOLLY: JavaScript framework is getting an update and the, the block 453 00:28:20,930 --> 00:28:24,690 HOLLY: editor is becoming a lot easier to use, which I kind 454 00:28:24,690 --> 00:28:28,370 HOLLY: of like because I, I don't like to use builders 455 00:28:28,450 --> 00:28:32,210 HOLLY: because they're adding another abstraction layer onto an abstraction layer. 456 00:28:32,290 --> 00:28:35,890 HOLLY: So you're getting further from pretty code, useful 457 00:28:35,890 --> 00:28:39,490 HOLLY: code, efficient code. You know, every, every builder you put on top, 458 00:28:40,050 --> 00:28:43,290 HOLLY: anything that makes anything simpler. Yeah. Is just moving the 459 00:28:43,290 --> 00:28:46,930 HOLLY: complexity somewhere else. Like you say, kicking the can down the road. 460 00:28:47,410 --> 00:28:51,250 HOLLY: Yeah. And with, with block builders, you're losing the complexity on the editor, so 461 00:28:51,250 --> 00:28:55,010 HOLLY: making your life easier as a content creator. But you're giving that to the 462 00:28:55,010 --> 00:28:58,730 HOLLY: end user who's browsing, wondering, why, okay, why? Why am I looking 463 00:28:58,730 --> 00:29:02,290 HOLLY: at 7 million nested elementor blocks here when I've just added one 464 00:29:02,290 --> 00:29:05,730 HOLLY: title. WordPress 7 is getting a much 465 00:29:05,810 --> 00:29:09,010 HOLLY: better user experience with their block editor, 466 00:29:09,570 --> 00:29:13,090 HOLLY: so that's something that I'm particularly looking forward to messing with, I think. 467 00:29:14,260 --> 00:29:17,900 HOLLY: Love it. Thank you so much for joining me today on this. It's been great. 468 00:29:17,900 --> 00:29:21,140 HOLLY: Thanks for having me. It's been great to talk about some techie stuff. I always 469 00:29:21,140 --> 00:29:24,580 HOLLY: feel like I'm approaching things from a kind of running the business point of view. 470 00:29:24,580 --> 00:29:27,980 HOLLY: So like hearing about stuff under the hood has been absolutely 471 00:29:27,980 --> 00:29:31,820 HOLLY: fascinating. So no problem at all. And that's all from 472 00:29:31,820 --> 00:29:35,460 HOLLY: us today. Thank you so much for listening and thank you 473 00:29:35,460 --> 00:29:38,740 HOLLY: once again for sticking with the slightly lower quality 474 00:29:38,990 --> 00:29:42,750 HOLLY: audio. I promise we will be back next episode to 475 00:29:42,750 --> 00:29:46,430 HOLLY: the usual production, but in the meantime I would 476 00:29:46,430 --> 00:29:49,870 HOLLY: love to hear what your take on this 477 00:29:49,870 --> 00:29:53,470 HOLLY: episode has been around what Rob and I have been discussing 478 00:29:53,790 --> 00:29:57,550 HOLLY: the different thoughts around AI because I appreciate that AI is 479 00:29:57,550 --> 00:30:01,390 HOLLY: absolutely everywhere and we're not saying about avoiding it, we're saying 480 00:30:01,390 --> 00:30:05,160 HOLLY: about use it strategically. And if if you would like to 481 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,960 HOLLY: send me your thoughts, please do get in touch. You can contact me 482 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:12,200 HOLLY: at hello@websitesmadesimple.co.uk 483 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,560 HOLLY: reach me at the website, which is websitesmadesimple.co.uk, 484 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:19,000 HOLLY: or you can find me on LinkedIn 485 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:22,120 HOLLY: @HollyCChristie. And 486 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,240 HOLLY: until next time, happy designing.