Welcome to we are already free, a podcast helping down to earth

seekers and free people to live their truth and be the change,

rather than spending too much time fighting against what they don't

want. Have you ever felt like you just

don't have what it takes to be a healthy, vibrant human living a

life of meaning? Like maybe you missed the boat or

it's just too late for you? Today's guest is a powerful

invitation and reminder that healing and sovereignty are always

just a choice, an inflection point, a decision away.

Thomas P Seeger, a pH.

D, is an associate professor in

the School of Sustainable Engineering and the built

environment at. Arizona State University in Tempe,

arizona. His teaching and research is

focused on a new approach to personal development called self

actual engineering, which is about redesigning ourselves over

relationships and our lives to realize more of our fullest

potential. He's the CEO of Morozko Forge, an

ice bath cold plunge I would really love to get my hands on and

my body into.

I discovered him first of all when

I was researching around health and testosterone and exercise and

how to combine ice baths and exercise, and he goes into that.

In this episode, Thomas shares the story of how he went from being

obese and lost in his middle age to taking responsibility for his

health, his life, and his choices.

He tells a funny and touching

story of how he accidentally ended up in a ballet class, which he

then went on to attend for over a year near the end of this.

Episode Thomas shares a heartbreaking story of the

horrific impact of generational trauma and also how we can start

to heal this terrible kind of epidemic, real problem in the

world today, something that affects all of us and what we can

do about it.

Because it's like, how do we

navigate when we've had trauma that comes to us through our

parents? And it's not even something we

directly experience or our grandparents or their parents, and

Thomas comes and talks about this.

At the end, I really honor his

courage in sharing his vulnerability and authenticity

with us, and I'm really deeply grateful to have had this chance

to chat with him.

And I also just what do you want

to honor that towards the end it gets very emotional.

Thomas shares something that is clearly deeply meaningful for him.

And I just want to hold space and ask that you hold space for it,

and also to know that you may be in tears by the end of this.

So if you're driving or something, just to take some deep breaths,

pull over, have a good cry and carry on your way.

So there are links to Thomas's Work and the books and everything

else that we discuss in the show notes.

So you can just go to already free dot me forward slash 007 So that's

just all ready free me forward slash 007 for the episode links to

all the different platforms wherever you listen and also you

just check the actual show notes where you are listening now.

And thanks again to all of you who are sharing to anyone who's

sharing, subscribing, leaving reviews.

It's making a big difference and.

Is a beautiful one from frogs.

Been had great username loving your podcast so uplifting in these

heavy times.

I look forward to each Thursday

now. I also look forward to each

Thursday, so thank you so much for listening, thank you for leaving a

review. And finally, I'll stick around to

the end to hear some next steps that I'll share to support you on

your path if this episode resonates with you.

Just want to give you some options always that you could move forward

with whatever we discussed in this episode.

So now may you find what you seek in this episode with the wonderful

Thomas P Seeger.

I I'm so interested in your story.

I've been following you for a while.

Your newsletters I find particularly just so interesting

and so valuable.

Your story around testosterone and

ice bars and exercise like that blew my mind.

And so there's multiple directions we could take this in.

But I think the first thing I'd really love to cover is I

actually, I'm sure that I read somewhere, and you can correct me

if I'm wrong, but that at some point you were obese and.

To me, like, when I read that, I was like this dude, how's that?

You look so healthy.

And I'm just wondering, like, what

was that trajectory? What happened for you?

And yeah, just if we could get that little introduction.

Some of the things that come up for me are childhood.

I was always a fat kid.

At least my memory is always being

a fat kid.

But sometimes when I look back at

the pictures of me, you know, when I'm six or seven, I wasn't fat at

that age. I got fat when at an age when I

became more aware of myself.

In the United States it would be

middle school. So this is a 6-7-8 grade, let's

say 12 or 13 years old.

And I do think that children, we

go through different developmental stages at which in those early

teenage years, maybe preteen or early teen, we're very

self-conscious Peer relationships mean everything to us and we're

just beginning to get a sense of identity.

But I remember being in first grade.

And realizing that I was so that, you know, for me that was six or

five or something, realizing that I was fatter than the other boys

were. And I also now that I've learned a

lot more about nutrition and I've learned a lot more about health, I

realized what happened when my mother read diet for a small

planet. Are you familiar with this book?

I've never heard of it.

Well, unfortunately, my parents

met in Graduate School at Harvard University.

I'm a university professor.

My parents were highly educated,

and Harvard is one of these liberal institutions.

This goes back decades.

Harvard was the center of a lot of

the I can't even call it science.

A lot of the work that was being

done in nutrition in the Fifties, sixties and seventies they gave

us. These serious misconceptions that

now look like big food propaganda.

My mother believed that margarine

was healthier than butter.

What a tragic right.

My mother thought that she.

I remember her telling me she was

scolding me because my best friend in first grade, he was very fast

and he was very thin and he used to eat eggs.

He his mother taught him how to cook.

We had a sleepover.

We're cooking eggs.

And my mother said, well, he.

Can eat eggs, but you can't

because you're there's too much cholesterol, they're too fat,

you're already too fat.

She fed me Lucky Charms.

She fed me the breakfast cereals that were, you know, advertised on

the Saturday morning cartoons.

And, of course, what kid doesn't

want marshmallows for breakfast? And my mother thought that because

they sprayed vitamins on these things that they must be more

nutritious than eggs and bacon and beef and things that are good for

you. So I grew up with my mother's sort

of ideology that came out of this liberal.

You know, now we would call it progressive or woke, but came out

of what I'm calling the food propaganda machine that was

centered around Harvard and other prestigious universities who had

been hired to promote industrial foods instead of natural foods.

And my metabolism was this messed up combination of margarine and

marshmallows. What did I know?

And I went away to school, engineering school.

I was very young at the time.

This was 17 was a freshman in

school. I hadn't even finished growing

yet. And I remember this because I, you

know, met my friends on my dorm floor.

And by the end of the year, I was an inch taller than these guys,

that I was the same height at the beginning of the year.

I didn't care much for the lectures.

We spent most of physics class in the racquetball court, you know,

because it was easy to get a court.

When everybody else was in physics, I guess, and this is the

irony, most people go to college and they complain about the dorm

food. But now I was free from, you know,

my family's ideas about what I was supposed to be eating.

And I was.

I still ate some breakfast cereal,

but it wasn't Lucky Charms, and I could have all the eggs I wanted.

And I was getting a lot of exercise.

I really leaned out.

Now, part of that is that's the

age that I was.

But I had talked about free it was

all I could eat.

There was no food scarcity

anymore, and I had to make a lot of adjustments.

About my relationship with food, I was fortunate that I leaned out

quite a bit.

Now I have 3 degrees cause you

gotta do that to become a university professor.

So I didn't undergraduate and I moved away and then I went back

for Graduate School that I moved away.

And then I went back for my PhD and I started my PhD kind of late.

I was 29 and by that time I was married.

I had two kids.

But in the twenties you if you're

smart, you're very conscious about where are you in them dating

marketplace, you know, and at an engineering school where 3.

Quarters of the students are men.

This was a competitive

environment. I stayed in fairly good shape.

I was never thin, but I was playing a lot of sports with my

friends and enjoying that.

But by the time I went back now

I'm a family man and I had an idea of what it meant to be a good

husband and a good father.

And I did not realize this until

much later. That I got fat again.

I topped out at about 249 and I'm barely 6 feet tall.

It's not healthy.

But one of the things that

happened to me was as a teacher and being on a college campus.

And, you know, I'm surrounded by lots of young people.

And I thought in my head that one of the ways, I don't think it was

just laziness on my part, but one of the ways to be faithful, to be

a good husband and a good father, was to somehow make myself

unattractive. Now, I don't know exactly what was

going on in my head, but it simplified my life to get fat and

ugly. It turned out to also be.

But ripping off my wife like, on the one hand, I removed myself

from any kind of.

Sexual flirtation, interaction

with any other women.

And on the one hand, even though

when I went back to school I was old for a PhD student, I was

teaching and I was young for a faculty member, you know, 30.

I just didn't have to.

I was teaching.

In engineering.

There aren't a lot of women

students, but in my own self-conscious brain I simplified

lots of things by being a fat dad.

Well then.

I got to be, you know, my kids got up to high school age, so you

gotta Fast forward 10 or 15 years later.

And my wife, we're now living in Arizona, we're living in Phoenix,

I'm teaching in Tempe at Arizona State.

And my wife said she wasn't happy and she wanted to go back to New

York and she wanted to take the kids.

And you know, our marriage, this had happened before and it each

interval, it's sort of an inflection point at which I could

be angry, I could be sad.

Lots of emotions come up and this

one was a little bit different because instead of.

Me blaming her for being an alcoholic, for failing to pull her

own weight in the marriage or whatever story I have in my mind

about everything that she's doing wrong and how this crisis moment

is all of her construction.

I thought about who she married

when we were 29 and I thought about who she was with right now.

In other words, I empathized.

And empathy, this exercise of

taking another person's perspective.

It can be.

You can completely fail.

You can construct a story in your mind, and it's nothing but your

own fictional account has zero.

You've created a character out of

another person, so that can go wrong.

Another thing that can go wrong is you project.

You say, well, this is the way I think about it.

This way I feel.

So the whole rest of the world

must think that way too, which reduces you to the developmental

state of a toddler, you know? Real empathy requires you to set

aside whatever your own agenda is, and typically in a situation like

that, it's going to hurt because that setting aside means

dissolving your ego.

And even then, maybe you don't get

it right, but you might get some insight.

So I thought about it from her perspective.

She married a guy who was handsome, fit and had excellent

prospects. I was never lean, but you know,

when she married me, I was probably one ninety, five six feet

tall and at one ninety five i look OK right now I'm two fourteen i

weighed myself this morning and.

I look OK, but you know, I don't

know, i'm still, I still feel I still have the identity of a fat

guy. And when I get on that body fat

meter it says 28 %, which I know is another five pounds away from

being, at least according to a body fat estimate, obese.

So I'm not out of the woods.

But at 29 she was stuck with a

bespectacled obese. Professor who didn't make a lot of

money. We're chronically in debt.

It wasn't where she thought she was going.

So I sat her down and I said, you're going to see some changes

in me. I'm gonna be getting myself back

into shape. I'm gonna be getting us on a

stronger financial footing.

I'm gonna be upgrading my

wardrobe, taking a little bit more pride in myself.

No, I still wasn't happy with her.

Like all these other emotions.

They still.

You know.

The anger, the sadness, the fear, they still come up.

But in this conversation, it's not about her.

It's about what am I gonna change? And so I said, this is these.

You're going to see some changes now.

We've been married years.

1617 years and you can imagine

that a wife hearing.

So after 17 years husband comes to

her and says, well, there's going to be some changes.

Nobody's going to believe that.

She said, why are you telling me

this? I said because we're married, and

when one person in a marriage starts making changes, the other

person's gonna notice.

And I'm I know you're going to

notice, and I want you to know to hear it from me about what's going

on. But it wasn't Full disclosure.

I had read a book called No More mister Nice Guy, and it sounds

awful. You know, why shouldn't we be nice

to one another? And the answer in the book is.

Because the typical nice guy is creating a bunch of covert

contracts. If I do this, then she'll do that.

She'll owe me this.

Then I'll deserve or be entitled

to that. The nice guy has these hidden

agreements in his head that the rest of the world never agreed to.

And then when they break the covert contract, whether it's your

wife or whether it's your boss or anybody, could be your kids.

It happens a lot.

Then resentment like wells up in

you. How dare they.

But do the thing that they never agreed to do.

And that no relationship can survive resentment.

And so the no more mister Nice guy is really about no more covert

contracts, no more carrying around all these resentments about what

the world and your wife and other people aren't giving you that you

thought you deserved because you were a good boy.

That's, you know, 8 year old thinking, not adult thinking.

So I'd read that book and I realized that if I wanted changes

in my marriage and I wanted to change this from my in my life, I

was going to have to lead those changes now.

Since then, there's a concept called the 10000 thousand foot tow

rope. Have you ever heard this?

Ok, so I got this from a guy who's on YouTube.

He's on Twitter.

He contacted me because of the

stuff that I write about, my relationships and all this

autobiographical stuff. And he's written, he's in the

middle of his second book.

He's deep in the red pill

literature, and he used to be in the Canadian Navy.

His name is Ryan Stone.

You can find him on Twitter.

You can find him on YouTube.

And he said, well, in the Navy

there's this concept called the 10000.

Thousand you have a lead ship, and then you have a rope, and it goes

to the ship that it's towing when the lead ship makes a turn.

Well, 10000 thousand feet behind you know, it takes like a year for

the towing ship to make the turn.

And I didn't think of it this at

the time, but it was a very helpful concept to explain after

the fact. I knew I was going to have to

lead, but I didn't have an appreciation for how long would it

take for my wife to follow.

Some marriages, you know, there's

a 10000 thousand foot tow rope and some marriage, it's 10 foot tow

rope. You're like, great, you wait a

week and then she's making changes too.

My marriage was a 10000 thousand foot toe.

Rope six months.

I was getting myself in shape.

My daughter wrote out she had a trainer for, you know, school

sports and I asked her for exercises.

Could, you know, could you show me some extra?

I'm going to go to the gym.

You know, she's like, dad, this is

great. And she got a sheet of paper and

she wrote at the top of it the Fat daddy workout.

And she started drawing and I thought, that's the end of that.

Like there is.

If I'm going to do this, there is

no pride. Left, I'm gonna go to one of these

gyms, you know, suburban Phoenix, where all these buff people are

working out in their spandex hide tech, whatever.

I'm going to walk in there a fat old man, and I'm going to do the

exercises that my daughter told me to do because I want to change my

life. She was thrilled, so she helped me

out. And you know, I did.

I started making progress.

I remember I was late to class.

It was my, you know, weight training class and I'm going to do

and it's a very popular class because I'm 5 minutes late.

The room's already full.

I'm like, God darn it, well, I

know there's a core class next door at this gym that I go to and

the smaller room, and so I'm going to bust into the core class.

I'm going to do that today.

So I run in, getting my math

middle of the room, and music's already planned and I look around

and it's all women.

I'm like this is not the core

class. If this is pregnancy Pilates or

something, I'm screwed.

They're doing a warm up routine

and I'm like, in the middle of this, what am I going to do, run

back out? I'm mortified just by the fact

that I've drawn attention to myself and I see one guy hiding up

in the corner of the room and he's stretching.

I'm like, well, fuck it, I'm going to do this thing.

It turned out to be a bar class.

No, I didn't know what bar was BA.

Rre I always thought that was called ballet.

But you know, the chicks who teach this stuff, they call it bar.

And every once in a while a dude will accidentally walk into a

class that he thought was about barbells or something.

And I'm doing please and what A and it's fantastic.

The instructor, she's beautiful and she's live and she's mixing in

some of these martial arts stuff, and it's musical and it's a hell

of a workout.

And I went up to her afterwards.

And I said, what did I just do? And she said, oh, it's called life

bar. You know, we do this and this and

she's really selling it.

I went to that class for a year

wow when I put away my mate that day, I didn't know this guy, but

he passed me on the way out.

He said, thanks for staying.

You know, he, I don't know if he was in the wrong room either.

And I never saw him again.

So a year I go to this class and I

got down to about two oh five.

And that was a good forty pounds

that i'd lost.

I had to put myself on a diet and

I called it the great food diet, so it works like this.

If it ain't great, I ain't eating.

I just don't eat that stuff.

I had to make an identity shift, and this identity shift was I'm

going to turn myself into a food snob and no margarine in my life.

There's no Doritos in my life.

There's like, for me, I could eat

a doughnut, but only if it was like a gourmet God damn doughnut.

Like when I went to Portland, oregon, and they had the homemade

Donuts with the bacon stuff on or whatever the heck it was, I'm

going to eat the freaking donut because it's a great donut.

No, I don't eat doughnuts.

Much anymore, but i put myself on

the great food diet and I remember going to a faculty lunch.

And you know, they have crap at these faculty lunches and

everybody's eating. And somebody said, Ohh, would you

like half of my sandwich, you know, did they run out of food?

I see you're not eating.

And I said, no, I'm eating

everything I want to have right now.

Which was nothing.

So it was confusing sometimes for

other people. Well, since then like intermittent

fasting has become like a huge thing.

So if I go to a faculty lunch and I'm not eating.

And fasting, you know, and everybody.

Ohh yeah.

Yeah, I read about that.

I saw that on the Internet or something yeah but when they send

me the little questionnaire, you know, about your dietary

requirement, do you have any dietary restrictions?

And now I always send it back and I say yes carnivore i don't know

what to do.

You know, they're like, can you

eat gluten? No, I can't.

Can you eat animals? No i'm seventh level vegan and

they would accommodate me.

Or what if I wrote I can't eat

anything that casts a shadow? They would say, OK, we're going to

find earthworms for you or something like that.

When I put down carnivore and they don't know what to do there, it's

not like there's going to be meat at the, you know, lunch.

Not in seriously.

So the food environment in which

we live is often oriented towards keeping us sick in the same way

that my mother was putting margarine on the table instead of

butter. So I lost a lot of weight and I

sat my wife down again, and this was six months later, and this was

a different conversation.

I said I no longer want to be

married to an alcoholic.

So you have a choice.

You can sober up, you can get yourself in a program.

And you can stay married or you can be divorced.

So this is an ultimatum.

And it may not have been a wise

choice, because not a lot of marriages, not a lot of

relationships, period, can survive an ultimatum.

But addiction is a bitch.

And it wasn't just me that didn't

want to be married to a drunk.

It was I didn't want my kids to

have a drunk for a mother either.

She, as you can imagine,

protested. And I went into Alanon, but her

older sister was very helpful, took her to a, got her going, got

her into the big book.

She sobered right up, lost 20

pounds, got herself off her blood pressure medication and divorced

me. So that was, I mean, she took A

and B and she kind of combined them into her own recipe.

And that's what I mean by.

Not a lot of relationships can

survive that kind of ultimatum, but she now has an associates

degree in addiction counseling.

She's, you know, stayed clean all

these years, maybe seven years now.

And more power to her.

I think she understands herself a

lot better. And that was really the beginning

of my journey.

Like everything else is preamble.

So since then I was sort of, what's the.

I don't want to be too metaphorical about it.

We separated, we divorced, and now I'm living the life of a bachelor

again, and I have a lot to figure out.

So I have just brought you up to, you know, probably 2016 or

something like that in my life eventually reached like 190 pounds

and I looked at myself in the mirror and I looked a lot better.

But I still felt fat.

My you know, my body fat came

down, but it was still 20 %.

And I thought.

I don't see 180 in my future.

I don't.

I don't think I'm ever gonna be one of those guys that fits into

the insurance tables, you know? And I got a scare.

I had.

Got my labs back.

Now I'm, you know, out on the dating market and I'm more

self-conscious about my wardrobe and I'm trying to figure out what

dating is like.

I'm trying to figure out health.

I'm trying to figure out who am I going to turn myself into.

I got all my blood work done.

You know, my Omega sixes are way

out of whack.

I'm learning a few things.

My cholesterol is all high.

Turns out that's a good thing, you

know, because my triglyceride to HDL ratio is doing great.

And my prostate specific antigen is way too freaking high.

It's like 7 what the hell is PSA? So I gotta go and I gotta Internet

search around and learn about that means I'm at an elevated risk for

prostate cancer. Well, damn it, Nathan, now I'm

like. Did I just have difficulty

urinating what? Like, I'm looking for all these

other symptoms that are running through my head.

Was that difficulty or was that just, I don't know, like, do it?

What are you supposed to do if I were married and had kids?

They'd say, dad, you gotta get to the doctor.

You know, my wife would say, ohh you should you have to get that

checked out. But I'm not.

I'm it's just me now, right? And so I started talking to guys,

some of them older, some of them younger.

And it's such an awkward conversation.

Guys don't talk about this anywhere near, you know, a woman

has a pap smear and then the next thing you know, it's the topic of

lunch for her and the whole social matrix.

Like, they'll talk about these things, but dudes aren't going to

bring it up.

So for me, it's kind of awkward.

And I'm like, you know, I had a PSA test done the other day and I

got my like, yeah, revealing nothing.

I said, well.

It came back a little high, yeah.

Well, it was seven, you know, and I did yeah and like, well, have

you ever done this? Yeah and once you get them going,

they had turns out half my friends had biopsies or prostatectomies

and I'm talking to them about this.

And this is not a good time for me to go two years without an

erection, like I trying to figure out women and what I want my life

to be like.

And I'm like, the hell with that.

I'm not going to get the biopsy.

I'm not even going to go in for

the exam. I'm not going to touch any of this

allopathic medicine nothing by this time I was taking cold

showers. My partner Jason and I were doing

ice baths. You know where you buy.

Two hundred pounds of ice and you put it in the tub and it's

Phoenix, it all melts.

Like we weren't satisfied with

that. There's nothing on the market that

we could buy that would make ice.

So we got a freezer compressor and

we got copper coils and we got a tub and we're, you know, trying to

figure out how to wrap things up and we'd made these working

prototypes so by this time.

I had an ice bath on my porch.

You know, it was like the fourth forge we ever made.

And I'm scared.

I knew enough about managing blood

sugar, and I knew enough about diet because my son was diagnosed

with diabetes when he was six years old.

I knew some things about metabolism.

And instead of going to the doctor, I said.

I'm going to treat this thing with ketosis and ice baths.

I'm going to cycle myself in and out of keto and I know the ice

bath can help with that and I'm going to see where I stand.

Sure enough, it took less than six months.

I'd brought my PSA down to 0 8, which is totally out of the risk

zone. And you know what was I, 52 or

something like this is almost five years ago?

And I'm checking all these labs and one of the things, you know,

male health profile or whatever.

So my PSA looks good

congratulations. And my testosterone went through

the roof. Now it had good testosterone.

I was like 700 or something.

But it came back and the way it

works in my lab, if something is out of range, it comes with a big

red like exclamation.

H for high or L for low or

whatever. And there wasn't big freaking red

letters. 1178 nanograms per deciliter.

It's off the gaulding chart, so I had to look that up.

Turns out I had the testosterone of like an over six nineteen year

old and I'm walking around 53 year old, man.

Jason says, well, that's just because, you know, you're out on

the dating market and you know, like when you're married and you

have kids, your testosterone goes down and you've lost a lot of

weight and there's all these other peripheral factors that can

contribute and they can, but they don't take a 53 year old fat guy

up to 1178 So I said to Jason, well, have you been checked?

And he's like, why would I? I said because we're trying to do

something. We're trying to understand health

here and because that's a good point.

So every birthday he gets checked.

He went up from five fifty to like

nine seventeen doing the same thing that I was doing, and that

was ice baths.

And then, you know, it was kind of

by accident after the ice bath, you come out and it's cold

especially, you know, in Phoenix it might get down to 40 something

degrees. It's really not bad.

But I get out of the ice bath and I'm chilly.

So what am I going to do? Some jumping jacks and push-ups?

Some steel? It doesn't take a lot.

Turns out there's a study in Japan, 1991 They took a bunch of

Japanese college students and they put him on the exercise back, put

him in the ice bath.

And this is the way most people do

it, ice bath for exercise recovery.

But when they did it that way, testosterone went way down.

And then they switched it.

And I don't know why they switched

it cause nobody in the early nineties was doing.

This but, they said OK, we'll do the ice bath first, then we'll do

the exercise. Testosterone, weigh the hell up.

I went to my urologist with this report.

And he said, OK, Tom, you know, he was about my age and he didn't let

on that he thought I was juicing ohh he's like, well, there's just

one more test you want to do.

Well, I'm sending you back to the

lab. We'll get your and you didn't even

tell me what it was.

Turns out to be luteinizing

hormone. Luteinizing hormone signals the

gonads to produce testosterone if you're on some kind of

testosterone replacement therapy or if you're supplementing with

exogenous testosterone tostring? Your testicles and your

bloodstream. Plenty of testosterone.

You don't need any luteinizing hormones, so your luteinizing

hormone will be depressed.

And he wanted to know.

So I get this other one checked.

It's off the freaking charts.

Big Red exclamation mark again.

It's all naturally stimulated.

Jason repeats the thing.

And it turns out accidentally I

was doing exactly what the Japanese study did, reversing it,

but doing the ice bath.

I'm not working out, you know, I

do my ballet class.

Which is not the most masculine

testosterone. And he's like, yeah, but you're

surrounded by beautiful women, you know, and maybe that's a really

good thing. But he married, living with his

wife. He's got kids, and he was running

at about nine twenty by the time he instituted this program.

So I wish we had, like, some official I should write a book

called the Testosterone Protocol and put myself on the cover with a

steel Mace and stuff like that.

But the fact is you do the ice

bath, you get out, you do some.

Jumping Jacks, do some push-ups,

do some pull-ups.

I really like the steel Mace, jump

some rope, just doesn't.

That doesn't take a lot.

It was just 20 minutes of exercise bike that boosted all these

college students T levels.

We are meant as men to maintain

healthy levels of testosterone and it ain't what they call normal.

Normal is now sick because they assay a whole swath of the

population. We say, well, we pulled

testosterone samples from 10000.

Thousand guys and, they averaged

400 So 400 is normal, 400 is sick.

We are, you know, evolutionarily

wired to maintain healthy.

And by healthy I mean like nine

hundred seven, fifty something up there that other people would, you

know, your doctors say, well, you're doing great.

Not normal.

And there's no reason we can't

keep that. So anyway, I wrote this article,

which you've read, and somebody posted a comment and they were

like, yeah, but Doctor Seeger, how you doing now?

I'm in a monogamous relationship.

I'm dating a woman with four

daughters. It's the closest facsimile to, you

know, being married.

I'm not out there playing the

field or going to the clubs or anything like that.

And it's a fair question.

I've gained probably 20 pounds

since my last Test.

So you got to think if this whole

protocol, the ice Bath exercise protocol, if it's any good?

It better show up in my bloodstream, so frankly.

Nathan, I was a little nervous, but i go to the lab, I'm like, I

wonder what's coming at 1075 Wow.

It's like it's still it's not bad

for a 56 year old fat guy.

There's no reason I'm in my head

to be at 400 Because you can find enough cold, you don't have to buy

a ten thousand, dollar, you know, marasco but.

The ocean is great.

South Africa Tim Noakes is South

African, if I remember correctly, and when Lewis Pugh was going for

some cold water swimming record, I think he went to South Africa to

swim in the cold ocean there, and Tim Nokes supervised the swim.

Most people can find some cold.

When I love about your story is

basically you've made a point of mentioning a few, I think you

called them like pivotal points or inflection points.

And it's the reason that things have shifted in the positive

direction is because, well, at least what I'm hearing is that

you've taken responsibility is that when there were those moments

where you could have either collapsed or gone deeper into

like, the blame and the judgment and pushing it outward, you went,

OK, this is clearly about me.

And yeah, other people have their

own things, but what about me? Like, how can I show up

differently in this situation? I think really right now, as we

are navigating a really weird time in human history of.

Where there's like this top down push for like he's like the food

pyramid. I mean have you seen that list

recently where they show the most recommended foods?

And it's I think like Cheerios or somewhere near or Lucky Charms are

near the top and meat and eggs are literally at the bottom.

I mean it's astonishing my mother could have written the question.

It's very difficult for a small planet right So the question I

want to ask you is i saw that you, you're working with something or

you've developed something that you call self actual engineering.

And so for I'm really wanting to be in service to whoever's

listening to this.

Obviously having heard your

journey, which I think is a beautiful example of a journey of

transformation, of taking the opportunity to learn from life

lessons and actually at some point go, you know what?

I can't keep listening to the society because it's making me

sick. So what can I do instead?

And so the question I'd like to ask you is.

What is self actual engineering and how can we use it, as you say,

to redesign ourselves, our relationships and our lives to

realize more of our fullest potential?

So I'm glad you asked, because there's no such thing as self

actual engineering. It's something I made-up you know,

I didn't have a word for what I wanted to do.

I read a book called Maslow on Management.

There all the great you know psychologists seem to come from

Vienna. There must be something in the

water. In Vienna you have Freud, you have

Adler, you have Victor Frankel.

The two most famous American

psychologists are probably BF Skinner, whose famous for

teaching, you know, pigeons, how to play ping pong and Maslow and

while Victor Frankel was in a Nazi.

Concentration Camp Maslow published something called a

hierarchy of human motivation.

He's a really interesting guy.

Maslow did his doctorate with Harry Harlow at University of

Wisconsin. Madison, which probably means

nothing. You're like, but do they have a

good rugby team? You know, but in the United

States, it's a prestigious public university.

And Harry Harlow's thing was torturing Reese's monkeys.

So Maslow is a student.

Now let me put some perspective on

it. What do I mean by torturing?

Harlow would create these experiments where he would remove

the infant monkey from the mother and he'd put it in a cage.

And in the cage it had a chicken wire facsimile of a mother with a,

you know, a baby bottle coming out where the nipples supposed to be

so the monkey could feed.

At the time, BF Skinners ideas on

operant conditioning dominated the American School of thought.

In psychology, the infant only bonds with the mother because it

is the source of sustenance.

This was the height of the

Industrial Revolution and Skinners you know, teaching pigeons to play

ping pong by rewarding them with food pellets was the ideal

psychological paradigm for the factory.

All you have to do is gather these workers.

And set up a system of punishments and rewards, and they will mold

themselves into the machine and behave in the way that you want

them to have to make you rich.

So operant conditioning is a

pretty low level of understanding of psychology, and it's meant.

To make good factory workers.

Skinner was in the service of the

Industrial Revolution, but Harlow, who doesn't sound.

I've never met him, and I don't know him.

But these? From our modern perspective, these

experiments sound incredibly cruel.

Harlow was testing this operant conditioning hypothesis.

And when you think about how cruel child labor is and how cruel the

factories were at the time, nineteen thirties, maybe it didn't

seem like such a bad thing to put a monkey in a cage and give it a

bottle. Lot of orphans were metaphorically

raised in cages like this.

So he's testing this idea.

Is it just the sustenance? Is it just the food?

So then he eventually he separates the bottle, he puts the bottle on

one side of the cage, and he puts this chicken wire facsimile of a

mother on the other side of the cage.

And he's got this infant monkey.

Maybe infant is in the right word,

but you know what I mean.

A juvenile Reese's monkey.

And then he scares it.

Which way does it run?

Does it run to the bottle, which feeds it?

Or does it run to the chicken wire?

You know where it goes.

It goes to the one where he tied

buttons, where the eyes are supposed to be.

And he put like a little sweater on a piece of the chicken wire so

that the monkey would have something soft to cling to.

Operant conditioning is bullshit.

It's not that it doesn't work,

it's not like we can't train people or pigeons or whatever.

But what Harlow showed is that there's a deeper attraction.

There's something more fundamental between the child and the mother.

Now we know a lot more.

We know about oxytocin, we know

about vasopressin, we know about the neurochemistry of bonding.

Didn't have that at the time.

So Maslow's most famous American

psychologist ever is a young man, and he's growing up in.

You know, this lab environment where they're torturing monkeys

like their factory workers to try and prove something about the

human condition. It's 1943 What does Maslow begin

to study? He starts as a sex researcher.

He's like, well, what is love? You know what?

And he starts, you know, interviewing college students

about their masturbation habits and their dating habits and stuff,

which was very ahead of his time in a way, right?

In 1943 he publishes the hierarchy of human motivation.

And sex is not anywhere in it.

He doesn't touch it at all.

Whatever his curiosity was, something in Maslow was like.

I'm out.

I'm not gonna do that anymore.

I've learned enough.

There's something about the

operant conditioning. We need safety, we need security,

we need shelter.

And it's at that.

He put at the very bottom of his hierarchy of human motivation,

these hedonic drives.

That's where Freud lives.

It's all about sex and pleasure and security and safety.

And then he said, you can go a little further up.

No it's about interpersonal relationships.

It's about social acceptance.

It's about.

Being loved in the sense of belonging.

That's where Adler is.

Well, psychological problems,

Adler would say, are interpersonal problems.

It's the drive to control other people to this, the status

hierarchy. This is what motivates.

So Freud's like, it's all about the hedonic pleasure.

And Adler say no it's about interpersonal power.

And Maslow says no, I've seen more than this.

It's about self esteem.

It's about mastery.

It's about realizing your fullest potential.

And he coined this phrase called self actualization, which means

nothing, as far as I can tell.

I'm like, you know, you had

another 50 years, or give or take 40 years.

Could you tell us what this means? And has been very controversial,

and it's this idea of realizing your fullest potential.

And I don't really buy it, but I do know that we will give up

pleasure. We will give up.

Acceptance, sense of belonging.

We will go our own way because

we're working on something in ourselves.

Maslow isn't wrong when he said, you know, we do have this drive

towards mastery, autonomy.

And self esteem.

But then Frankel is released.

He's liberated from the

concentration camps, and he eventually publishes a book called

Man's Search for meaning.

And I'm going to kind of condense

it. Man can withstand almost any

deprivation. If he has a reason why, because he

saw it in the concentration camps.

It is the people who had meaning

to their lives who lasted the longest.

If you had, he goes, we knew a guy would be dead in the morning if he

lit a cigarette at night.

Because cigarettes were currency,

and if you're going to light that up, it means you've given up, and

when you give up, you're going to die.

So Frankel challenged this idea that the hierarchy that Maslow

built had to be filled in from the bottom.

You don't need to satisfy your safety, shelter, food, sex needs,

your hedonic needs, and then move up, and then move up, and then you

move all over the place.

It's a complexity of human

motivations and. Maslow got turned into the

hierarchy of human needs rather than human motivations, which is

what he originally published.

So, you know, I'm in this

reflective period of my life and we're starting a company.

I read a book called Maslow on Management.

And I'm becoming kind of a fan of Abraham Maslow in general now.

When it was first published, it was called something like.

You securian psychology, or some obscure like, I've butchered the

title, but the idea was positive psychology.

So much of psychology is focused on the deranged and the disordered

and maslow's like, hey, what about the people who are pretty much

basically OK? We do.

We ever study them.

And so we got republished in a

much more alliterative and catchy title called Maslow on Management.

And it was when he went to, he spent a year or something in a

Silicon Valley firm just studying how people work and what I got out

of that as a teacher.

Is that you cannot take someone

who's at one developmental stage and pretend that they're in

another. Here I was thinking that the best

thing I could do as a teacher was grant autonomy to my students.

Give them independence, give them the freedom to explore.

And what Maslow taught me was you're just scaring the shit out

of him. Like at this stage they are.

I got a 20 year old engineering student and most of them are going

to be just tell me what to do.

Tell me what problem worksheet I'm

supposed to do.

Tell me what the right answers

are. Just tell me how I can graduate,

get a good job, pay these student loans, and make my parents proud

of me. Not everybody is looking for this

self-directed autonomous freedom.

Some people are just going to

panic, is what Maslow said, because you're throwing them back

on their own resources and they don't feel capable of figuring out

fluid mechanics for themselves.

Because you gave them the freedom,

you know, to invent Bernoulli's equation or whatever the hell it's

gonna be.

You know, this is the way we work

in engineering. And I'm like, ohh, I've been a

jerk. And it I was ready for that

because one of the things that I got from Alanon was the

realization that I'm an asshole.

And look, I got at least 20 years

of blaming other people.

And Nathan, I'm really good at it.

I have a lot of practice.

And I went into Helen on and was

an all men's group.

The mixed groups are much gentler

with one another, I think.

But you this group anyway, you

know, in Phoenix, all men.

I go in there and I'm like.

Yeah, this is my situation.

You know, my wife's a drunk and

giving her an alternate Wawa, Wawa.

And they listened to me.

And one of the guys said, well,

you're an asshole.

Why am I me?

I'm not the one.

Look, I've already quit drinking,

you know, I've.

And he goes.

No, you're treating your wife like she's some kind of grown up.

Well, she is a grown up.

No, she's not.

Her brain stopped working the moment she started drinking.

How old was she when she started drinking?

And I'm like, well, you know, probably 17 and go you're married

to a 17 year old, they said.

Because once she starts drinking

she starts stops developing.

And I thought.

Holy shit.

That makes sense.

If I reframe my marriage as now, you know, she's a year older than

me. But if I reframe it is I'm married

to someone who's developmentally stopped growing when she was 17,

then her behavior makes sense and my expectations of her all false.

This guy and alanon, he says you're treating your wife like

she's some kind of self determined mature adult.

She's a brain damaged drunk.

It's like.

I'm an asshole because you can't take a brain damage drunk who's

been. Drinking for her 35 some years and

expect her to make mature, well reasoned choices.

I had to make a change.

And the analogy is I can't expect

that everybody comes to me in the classroom or in the at work, you

know, at miraz Co forge and they're ready for this autonomy

and this mastery and this self act stuff.

Some people there are different places in the pyramid, you know

that they want to be told what to do because they get safety and

security and a paycheck.

And that's right for them.

So I thought, all of these psychologists, they're all right.

They're incomplete, but they're right.

What am I gonna do? I'm no longer interested as an

engineer in working at the bottom of the pyramid, because what do

civil engineers do? Ohh Nathan, you don't have clean

water. I can take care of that.

You don't have a road? I can do that.

You need a house.

I can do that.

Where do civil engineers work? At the bottom of the damn pyramid?

Food, shelter, clothing, basic infrastructure.

I my whole career has been at the bottom of the damn pyramid.

Except I'm a teacher and so you know, I want to develop human

beings. I want them to learn.

I want them to obtain mastery and self esteem and all that stuff.

I said screw that, I'm not doing civil engineering anymore.

I'm going to do something different now.

I don't have a word for it, but it was inspired by Maslow.

It's now self actual engineering.

How would you redesign yourself to

actualize more of your full potential?

To work higher in the pyramid.

What is it that you're working on?

Well, I'm out in the dating world.

I want acceptance.

I want belonging.

I want close relationships.

I want a sense of my own self esteem.

I want autonomy.

I want independence.

I want all these to and at the very top where Frankel resides.

I want a meaningful life.

What is it that I'm going to do

with all of these skills, educationally vocationally, that

I've accumulated in the 1st 50 years of my life?

What am I going to do with the next 50 years that is meaningful?

So yeah, I started the sub stack self actual engineering.

I don't know if anybody can find it because the number of people

Googling self actualization is 0.

You know, nobody's going to

stumble across this thing.

They're going to come, I don't

know, going to see something else like testosterone.

I'm going to say, well, who the hell is this guy?

And then I'm going to look it up and they're going to see some of

my, you know, my personal, my relationship history and things

like that. And it's all oriented along this

idea of working.

Plenty of people are doing the

bottom of the pyramid.

You know my friend Ryan Stone?

He'll help you get laid.

He's working at the bottom of the

pyramid, dating coach, pickup artist, whatever the literature is

out there.

Plenty of people.

Who about you don't need me for that.

I'm working at the top end.

The only way to work at the top is

to work on yourself.

And so how would you say like, I

mean I know we actually don't have that much time left, so I just

want to maybe let's finish it with one more question.

And just not I know you need to go soon.

So the question is this podcast is called we are already free.

And so using your lens as an engineer, as a self actual

engineer at this point who's helping people to find meaning and

move higher.

Up that pyramid where actually

realizing that if I have meaning in my life, then I can put up with

less comfort and I can actually celebrate less comfort and less of

the things I thought I needed before I could do anything else.

But because I have meaning, so when?

Through the lens of we are already free, how would you invite someone

using these last few minutes to step into that journey of self

actual being a self actual engineer of their own

transformation so that they can basically remember that foundation

that we are actually already free and we do have a choice no matter

what the outside world looks like.

How would you approach that?

So here's my first reaction your podcast is we are already free.

And my first reaction is no, you're not.

You have this aspirational title, and we think we have one idea of

what freedom is.

Wasn't free.

So I'm you know, when I say, no, you're not.

I'm not trying to be a Dick.

I'm really just projecting my own

experience. I thought I was free, not tenured

professor. What could be more free?

And the answer is the cages are all up in here.

There was a time when I wrote an article why?

I have obsessive thoughts.

If I'm free, then why do I have

all these thoughts that I don't want?

Now I turned out.

Later I read a book by Daniel.

Aman called.

Change your brain, change your

life. He calls them automatic negative

thoughts. And it's true.

There are things that I couldn't do.

And one of them was control.

My own thoughts.

What a.

I thought I was in charge up here,

and it turns out not.

What's really in charge is a whole

bunch of unresolved trauma, a whole bunch of things that

happened to me that weren't my fault, but they happened to me.

And as it turns out, I am hardwired because I am a mammal to

seek out resolution of my trauma by reliving it from a position of

control. I had no idea.

I had no idea until I'd read Harville Hendrix and his amago

theory. That's really good.

I read Peter Levine, unspoken voice, waking the tiger.

I read Bessel van der Kolk.

The body keeps the score.

I read Pete Walker.

Complex PTSD, I read.

Alice, her name escapes me, reading a lot on trauma.

And it was.

Quest I was trying to understand a

woman that I was dating, and I was trying to understand myself, and I

was trying to understand why my marriage and my relationships

weren't working out the way I wanted them to work out.

And I was trying to understand why.

I felt and thought and saw things that why was I experiencing life

the way that I was experiencing it?

And I got, I mean, writing is great therapy because language is

a technology for improving the quality of your thoughts.

And until you put it down in writing, sometimes you don't even

know what it is.

And then you read it like, well,

that's not quite right.

And then you revise it and it

becomes a much better story, turns out.

That reliving your trauma from a position of control can happen in

your imagination. It can happen in an

improvisational theater sketch, and vanderkolk's got a whole

chapter on it can happen.

There's something the kids do when

they play.

It's called a do over.

So you're on the playground and you know you have rules and you're

playing a sport and there's some dispute.

You were out of bounds.

No, I wasn't.

Yes, you were.

I saw your foot, you know, and

there's no, nobody's having any fun anymore cause you just

arguing. And so somebody will say, let's

have a do over and you just play it again and everybody agrees that

whatever the outcome is, that's fair.

And then you move on and you have fun again well.

If my relationship sometimes now we'll get into, you know this, and

then we start arguing about the argument, I don't even know what

we're arguing about.

And I say, can we have a do over?

And she's learned enough to say, OK, and whatever the conversation

was, it sounds childish, because it is.

I'll say, OK, I'm gonna say this and you say this, but now I'm

gonna say this instead.

Nathan, it's amazing because it

erases the old experience.

Whatever the old argument was, we

come to this agreement that nobody's gonna argue about whether

your foot was out of bounds anymore.

And whatever I said, I take it back, you know, which is another

thing that I like 9 year olds can do that grown-ups stopped doing.

So we do a do over and we get a much more satisfying resolution of

the conversation, and that's the one that counts.

When you do that, the trauma is resolved because you now believe

that you're in control and when I faced this situation again, when I

face abandonment again, when I face bullying again, when I face

whatever it was and what will traumatize a four year old will

not traumatize a 14 year old? Don't judge yourself for the

traumas that you carried from, you know, when you were a defenseless

child and think, if only I'd been tougher because you weren't.

If it if we were 14 in that movie, never would have scared you.

But at 4, you know, it could be trauma.

For me, it was the Wizard of Oz.

I had to figure that one out.

But here I am now, when you are convinced that you can handle it,

when you've mastered it because you've replayed it from a position

of control, it doesn't come up anymore.

You still have the memories, but you no longer have the emotions

that are associated with the memories.

Now you're free because your thoughts are your own.

Your feelings are your own.

And so for me, it was.

A series of identifying and dismantling trauma I didn't even

understand. And here's the bitch of it.

Some of it wasn't even mine.

It turns out that there's

something called epigenetic intergenerational transfer of

trauma. And to condense all that down from

a, you know, Science Journal, where it means you inherited this

trauma from your parents or your grandparents.

And there's some really good case studies.

So I went on ancestry.com to try and understand my ancestors

a little bit better.

Turns out my grandfather, for whom

I am named Thomas.

He was eight years old when his

father died. What kind of trauma do you think

my grandfather Thomas is going to be carrying around?

Do you think maybe it could be abandonment?

And like.

I wasn't abandoned when, you know,

not really.

What the hell is going on?

Why did I marry a woman? Who could not possibly live by

herself? Why did I choose an alcoholic?

Because she could never leave me.

You know who's gonna hold her hair

back while she's vomiting into the toilet?

You know she can't get a job she.

Problem solved.

I can't be abandoned now, but whose trauma am I working on here?

God, it wasn't even mine.

And that sounds so foofoo like

voodoo doll astrology out there that I had to get into the journal

articles. And sure enough.

There's a lot of good stuff on Holocaust victims.

There's great case study in this book called it didn't start with

you and it was a Cambodian American child.

His parents were born in Cambodia.

They'd lost relatives in the

killing fields when the Camere Rouge came.

They came to the United States.

They escaped.

They didn't want their child to have anything they didn't even

want them to know.

But his body knew, because when

we're traumatized, the DNA, the DNA itself is not modified, but

expression of the DNA is modified at a chemical level that's either

methylated or it's coded in some other way so that some genes are

upregulated and other genes are suppressed.

Those genes can be passed on.

There's some really good

experiments with rats.

7 generations of trauma can be

carried in expression of the gene.

So the child.

The Cambodian American child.

Yeah, I don't know how to say

except it was all messed up.

He was having fantasies.

His play was violent, the parents didn't understand.

The therapist was able to identify the examples of trauma that have

been passed down to him epigenetically, and resolve them

with a different story storytelling it takes place in our

imagination, and the cells of your body don't know the difference

between imagination and reality.

They have no choice.

They're responding to what? The brain.

Is telling them to the respond to.

So the story that you tell

yourself is much more important than the experience that you had.

It's how do you make meaning of that story?

There's Frankel again, and how do all the cells in your body respond

to the chemistry and the nervous system, the electrical impulses

that are coming out of your imagination and telling them what

to do? So they created 2 rituals for

their child. One was at the Buddhist pagoda.

I'm getting that wrong, but I can't remember there was one with

a spiritual religious upon.

And the other was.

They put a picture of his grandfather, who was murdered by

the Rouge, over his bed.

And they told him now whose

grandfather was, and in the way that you would explain it to a

child, how he died.

I said your grandfather loves you.

He's watching over you.

Kid, he used to play with this

coat hanger. He would pretend it was a weapon

and he would stab the couch cushions.

You know, he would say die, die, die.

He's five.

It's not like he watched Star Wars

and, you know, this is some violent video.

Like, where did he get this from? Two weeks later, he gave the coat

hanger back to his mother.

He said, I don't need this

anymore. Because his grandfather is

watching over him so you can understand.

It's powerful for me.

Yeah, man.

Nobody's like this is a story.

It's in my head.

Who's watching over Thomas, my grandfather.

Is he watching over me or is it my turn?

To watch over him.

I've got it sorted out.

That's where I hear.

Am I free?

Like you're already free? I'm not there yet, Nathan.

I'm still working on it, you know.

I hear you, Thomas.

So thank you so much for that story.

I mean, to me, we are already free is really like a mantra.

It's the invitation, it's the reminder that at some level the

level that is the level of energy flowing in and out of reality,

that at that level we are truly all already free.

And the beauty of this work and the reason I love doing this

podcast is because these kind of conversations, it helps us to find

the places where we aren't free so that we can return.

And that story you've just told me is like.

I don't even have the words for it.

It's so heartbreaking and so beautiful to be learning these

medicines that we can be free, we can heal by retelling our stories,

by meeting our ancestors in new and different ways and by doing

the healing that they never had the chance to do.

And so I just really honor you for that and for sharing and for your

vulnerability. And really, thank you again.

I wanna bring this to a close because I know you gotta go.

But thank you so much for this.

Opportunity to sit with you and to

hear your story and I feel like we've only just it was like an

introduction. So let's do this again so we can

do it again and it'll be alright.

Thank you, Nathan.

It's been a pleasure meeting.

You thank you.

And I'll share all links to you and everything in the shower, so

don't worry about that.

I'll share that with everyone.

And yeah, I'll definitely direct everyone to your page, but I know

you gotta go.

So thanks again and blessings on

the path. I look forward to connecting again

soon. It's been a pleasure.

I'll talk to you soon.

Thank you again, Thomas P Seger at

the end there.

Your vulnerability.

You really just broke my heart wide open and I am so grateful.

This is why I love these kind of conversations, like just getting

to be real together.

Share our pain, share our joy,

share our passion, the things we really care about.

So to you listening, I hope that this brought you value this story

of 1 Man's journey, of losing himself, finding himself.

And as that journey continues, discovering, rediscovering

everyday what it means to be human, to show up in the world.

And I certainly love his morasco cold forged.

And they're helping lots of people around the world with their ice

cold bars. Ice plunges and, you know, just

really good to hear such a human story.

It fills my heart.

You can find links to Thomas's

blog, which I do really recommend.

He writes beautifully about all

things kind of health called immersion related, if that's

anything that you're into.

Also writes about generational

trauma and how we can work with that.

So again, that's linked, in the show notes, which you can find on

whatever app you're currently listening to.

Or just go to already.

Free dot me forward slash zero

zero seven double oh.

Seven good.

Episode and yeah, if you're feeling a call after listening to

that, if you've.

Kind of want to make some changes

in your life and you wanna get started.

I really recommend starting small.

Just small.

Consistent action is really one of the most powerful things that you

can do. I know my own tendency is to go

all in where it's just like I'm now going to do.

I'm now going to do 3 hours of morning routine and morning

practice or an hour of breathwork or whatever it is.

But really, if you can just start with five minutes of either

breathwork or meditation or journaling, just do that every day

and commit to that and make that your.

One commitment.

Even if nothing else happens,

start there and grow on build on that.

I promise you, the person you are in a year will be so grateful for

whatever small actions you consistently take day by day.

As always, if you enjoy this podcast, please leave a review on

Apple Podcasts or a star rating on Spotify, or share it from

whichever app you listen on.

You can just go to already free

dot me forward slash review.

If you do want to leave a review.

It makes a huge difference not only to the algorithm of.

These platforms that helps to be seen by more people, but it also

makes a difference in my heart because it lets me know that

you're out there and that you're listening and that you're what the

value is that you're receiving it just gets me so such a juiced up

like really beautiful abundant feeling of connection with you.

So until next week, I wish you all the blessings on your path.

And please know that you can always reach out to me via voice

note on either Telegram or Instagram.

Just go to already free dot me forward slash 007 And you will

find links to both of those platforms there.

Just leave me a voice note.

Would love to hear from you.

I'd love to share your voice note on this podcast in a future

episode. And yeah, I love being me with

you. Thank you.

I'll see you next week.

And until then, remember we are.