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Welcome everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world

become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

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I'm George Bonocca.

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I'm your co-host today.

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With me is Pastor Jeff Musgrave and he's the founder, the author of The Exchange and All

Its Materials.

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And I'm very excited for a new book that's coming out very, very soon.

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I will tell you guys more about that later in future episodes.

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Just gonna be talking today about a topic that's very important in our modern context,

especially in Western countries, but really everywhere, relational bridge building.

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How do you actually build that bridge and go out and reach people?

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And for those of you that are listening that are in ministry, this is like church planning

101, because we're gonna be talking about the Church of Antioch, which we all know becomes

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the sending church for Paul and Barnabas to go out and do more church planning.

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And so,

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There's a ton of truths to be talked about here, but before we get into that, we just want

to put a need before you about the exchange.

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know, the exchange has been on this expansion path.

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And of course, we are a ministry that's supported, funded by our donors, our listeners,

our supporters.

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And thank you guys so much for your generosity.

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It's absolutely overwhelming.

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And God's been able to do so much.

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We don't sell our books at a profit.

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We sell them to cover costs and for the mission field and everybody outside of the Western

hemisphere.

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we actually give away our material and we give away a lot of things to pastors overseas to

support what they're doing just because financially we don't want that their finances to

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be prohibitive and to getting into this material and using it for the sake of the kingdom.

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But there are costs associated with that.

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There are costs associated with the exchange bringing me on.

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Pastor Jeff, you want to explain a little bit how so far the exchange has funded me being

here and what we're looking for here in the future.

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We've been talking about expanding, expanding the exchange for several years.

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And so our board has uh very cautiously and carefully uh set aside money to be able to

help us with that.

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We started dipping into that money last January when we uh brought George on as a partner

with us.

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George is only working for us part time.

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But we really are amazed at the amount of

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work that's getting done as a result of this partnership that we've made.

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so what we're trying to do is raise enough ongoing support to be able to offset those

costs that we've been paying for out of savings.

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And if you think about it like this, what we're looking for is a hundred people or so that

give $25 a month towards our ministry.

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That's the cost of a pizza.

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That's the cost of, you know, a half a tank of gas or a tank of gas for somebody,

depending on what you drive or whatever.

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But you put it in terms of whatever you want to put it into, but it's actually not a lot

of money for most people, $25 a month.

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But just a hundred people like that that we could find could offset not only the cost of

me being here, but more things that we want to do in the area of reaching out to churches,

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helping churches become more effective.

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There are ideas we want to implement that right now.

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uh Money is kind of holding us back.

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And this would go a tremendous, tremendous way in terms of supporting all continued future

expansions.

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I think that recognizing the product that we're getting for the investment, I've just been

so thrilled to be able to see the impact that we're having and seeing more orders come in

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every single day.

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And it's only because people are hearing about it.

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And that's really what the whole social media platform is all about is letting people know

that there are tools.

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that will be a real help to them in trying to introduce their friends to Jesus.

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A lot of pastors know how to lead people to Christ, but what we want to do is equip the

laborers believing that there are people in everyone's neighborhood that would be saved if

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someone told them and then giving them the tools to be able to do that.

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Yeah.

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Amen.

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Yeah.

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And we're excited.

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I think this, this last month we had 140,000 views on YouTube alone, which is absolutely

incredible.

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have now over 2000 people listening to this podcast.

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And, um, you know, that doesn't sound like a lot, but if you've ever tried to build these

things from the ground up, uh, that, that is, that is the Lord blessing those things.

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This is the only reason that they're as far as they are.

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Um, Jeff and Anna, when they, when they write a book,

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I mean, they really put their heart and soul into it.

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I mean, they really pray over every word.

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so we don't do shoddy work at the exchange, but we're doing it for Jesus.

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And we're very, very passionate to see churches become more effective and individuals

become more effective in personal, evangelism and discipleship.

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so we believe that's the key to things turning around in America and in the West.

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And it's the heart of revival.

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I was talking to another preacher this week and he was asking me about writing a book and

how, how the process happens.

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He said, you know, I've, I've thought about writing a book, but I can't decide what I

would want to write on.

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I said, no, I go about that totally differently.

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said, I don't, I don't want to write a book.

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I just see a need out there of a, of a tool.

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And I feel like someone's got to build that tool.

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And so every, every single book that we write, everything that we do,

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is all about trying to put tools in the hands of the laborers that will make them more

effective and more productive in the harvest fields.

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That's incredible.

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know, and I use your materials all the time in my ministry as a pastor here in the Valley

in Phoenix.

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And I can tell you that, I mean, I've not come across bad content.

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there are some books that get, you know, I don't know, maybe less in quality the further

you go along in the book.

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And I'm almost done with living the exchange with Forrest and he and I love it.

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We just wish there was a part two, I mean, it's long enough that we're just gonna go to

conversations with Jesus next.

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But it's really, I'm very thankful for the materials this ministry produces.

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It's not just patting us on the back.

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It is God's work through Jeff and Anna, but it is God's work.

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uh And use it, and it's there for you guys to use.

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made it affordable that anybody could access it.

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$5 to get your Exchange Bible study going.

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That's really what it takes.

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So we're very, very excited about that.

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just really want people to recognize when we um let you know about the needs that we have,

we're not in any way trying to make money.

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We just want to facilitate the ministry that God is doing.

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We believe in it passionately and we believe that some of you believe in it passionately

and want to share with you the needs so that you can participate with us.

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Yeah, amen, amen.

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Well, be praying about that.

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See what the Lord would have you do, but looking for $25 in monthly support from 100

individuals.

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Well, let's jump right into relational bridge building.

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And why don't you take it away, Pastor Jeff, and tell us what you see there in the book of

Acts.

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This is an incredible passage and the way that God showed you these verbs is really

incredible as well, laid out for us.

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Yeah, well, so Acts chapter 11 is the first church plant in heathen territory.

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It happened because of persecution in Jerusalem.

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I these guys would have never traveled as far as Antioch had they not been fleeing from

that persecution.

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It just shows you how God in his sovereignty uses even the suffering in our lives to

accomplish the good that he wants to accomplish.

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And uh these guys traveled as far as Antioch and it's an

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what I recognize here in this church plant, there's, there's a lot of detail.

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And what we're going to talk about with these relational bridge builders is, is not the

detail.

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We're just going to make a simple observation about the communication that the, looks like

there were two different Grecian men that were responsible for this church plant.

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And uh the, love,

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I heard a message on this passage once called the ears of the church.

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When these two seemingly lay people start leading people to Christ, the church back in

Jerusalem heard about it and sent some preachers to help them because there was just a lot

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of work to do.

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But, but what we're going to do today is just observe four verbs of communication that are

in this

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account of this first church plant.

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So there are lot of details in here that we're not going to talk about.

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But these four verbs uh of communication help paint a picture of what I call real building

relational bridges.

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So the first one is really simple.

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uh If a person is genuinely burdened for unbelievers and seeing people come to Christ,

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they're going to be looking for preaching opportunities.

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They're going to be looking by preaching.

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mean, uh, sharing the good news, in Acts chapter 11, verse 20, uh, uses the word preaching

to be able to describe the verb you on Galezo.

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We get our word evangelism from that Greek word you on Galezo.

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It just means sharing the good news.

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So these guys were looking for opportunities to share good news, but it's interesting to

me, they didn't.

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just stumbled onto a preaching opportunity, a place to share the good news, they stumbled

onto some other people who were also Greeks.

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And so these Grecian believers were were cast into Antioch.

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They stumbled onto someone that they began to have a conversation with.

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The English word we see translated here is they spoke to them.

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But the

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verb underneath of that, la la o, is the word for communication.

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It's an anamanopeia word.

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It literally means that what it sounds like.

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So when you're listening to someone speak a language that you're not familiar with, you

don't actually hear words.

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You just hear sounds, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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And that's really what la la o is, is kind of a verb that means to have a conversation.

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You're hearing the verbs or the words that people are communicating.

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And that was their bridge to get to the preaching.

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The reason I think that's significant is because I think in our world, so now we're moving

to 2025.

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I uh think there are many of us who are burdened for the loss.

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We would love to find preaching opportunities, but often they don't present ourselves

themselves to us as a preaching opportunity.

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What does present itself to us?

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is a conversation opportunity.

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Hmm.

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That's, I think, you wouldn't think a preaching opportunity would start with conversation.

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It almost seems, uh you know, uh like antithetical or, you know, kind of like uh the wrong

way to go about it.

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But uh that's incredible that, you know, Laleho is right there.

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I mean, it's like it starts with conversation.

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Yeah, and I think that when I look back on my own life, I recognize that the people that

God has given me the opportunity to see their lives transformed and become uh a believer

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and then someone who gets discipled and then eventually a co-worker, uh those great

lifelong relationships happened at the beginning with a simple conversation.

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I I look at all the ministry and that's amazing, but it all started back with a

conversation.

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I can look back at my relationship with Carlton and the first conversation I had with him.

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I can look back to the relationship with Michael and the first conversation that happened

with him, with Mary Ellen and the first conversation I had with her.

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I over and over and over.

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ah All of these relationships of powerful ministry started with a uh simple conversation.

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Do you think we sometimes think that's counterintuitive because we're used to preaching,

then giving the invitation and having a conversation?

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Whereas this is almost like backward.

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This is like the other way.

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It's like saying, let's have the invitation, let's talk, and then we'll have a platform to

preach.

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Let's ask the questions and then let's give the answers.

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Is that why you feel like we're just in a model shift?

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Is that different from what you've seen in many

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if you ask me, I've talked to a lot of believers about this and I kind of feel like uh

most of us have kind of bought into I've got to get just the right moment in order to be

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able to witness and we're watching for those perfect timing, you know, the just right

moment.

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And I actually wonder if sometimes that's not the evil one.

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getting us to postpone to wait.

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And what I am just trying to point out from this passage is let's look for the moments God

gives us and turn those moments into the right moment or the preaching opportunity.

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So oh we have conversations with people daily, mean, everywhere we go.

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And I think that if we recognize

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conversation as a bridge into evangelism.

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We're gonna have more conversations because we're gonna be looking for people to talk to

because we're going to be recognizing God might turn this one.

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God might turn that one.

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I had a conversation today that I'm wondering somewhere down the road.

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If it might turn into a preaching opportunity.

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I don't know.

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But that's why I am so excited about meeting people and having as deep a conversation as

they'll let me have.

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because I believe God will open doors to where I can preach to them.

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You know, what's interesting is there's a kind of like a brand of churches that are good

churches, but preach well, but they would tell you my job is to preach, not to not to be

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an advertiser or, or, or whatever, try to get some gimmick or bait and switch people.

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My, my, my goal is just to preach.

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And if I preach the church is going to grow.

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ah Do you think, do you think there's a scenario in which a church is just going to

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grow with no conversation, with no lale'o.

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Yeah, I know I don't.

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I actually believe that sometimes God does supernatural work and it's going to be OK.

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But for the most part, oh any organization of any kind has to get the word out that we're

here and uh being faithful and preaching hard and preaching effectively, preaching through

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the Bible, feeding people.

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Those are all powerful, wonderful things.

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but you're right.

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They have to start back here and they just start with having conversations with people,

finding out what their needs are.

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uh I love reading the conversations of Jesus.

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just finished conversations volume two, turned it into the uh editor and I'm super excited

that it's off my desk for awhile.

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But

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studying the conversations with Jesus and recognizing how he simply asked questions and

took conversations deeper, listened well to people that people like you, you always say

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people will tell you what's in their heart if you'll listen.

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And if we will learn the art of asking good questions and listening with our hearts to

their hearts.

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God's going to bring us to the place where we can preach to and I when I use the word

preach I'm using the word that's translated in this text It's actually the word you want

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to go ledzo and it means to share good news And if we just share the good news of who

Jesus is and how he can meet these needs in your life uh It's going to change lives

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Amen.

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Yeah, I really agree.

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And where I agree with those type of churches, uh many of them are called Bible churches,

is the Bible ought to be the thing we make a beeline to.

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The Gospel needs to be the thing we make the beeline to as soon as the conversation

allows.

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ah But I believe conversation is necessary to get to this next step, evangelism.

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Yeah, and I will acknowledge I actually think there's a lot of churches out there that are

the exact opposite.

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They're real good at building relationships with people, but they never take the

relationships anywhere.

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And so I think that these two we have to recognize it as a bridge and a bridge is a

destination.

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So the destination is I want to share the good news.

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We're just recognizing that conversation is a bridge that takes us to the destination.

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Yep, yep.

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uh It is not just about having conversation.

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I love the way you put that because then it shows you it's a balance.

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It's having a biblical balance.

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That's what I love about seeing these verbs laid out in this passage like this.

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You almost go like, wow, this is right here and it's described so clearly and how come I

haven't seen it before?

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And these verbs are all sitting right here in Acts 11 and it's pretty incredible because

we see from our experiences, this is exactly how it works.

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I love the word of God.

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And it just seems to me that every single time I read a passage, just reading through John

chapter five this morning and you know, I've written a book on John chapter five and yet

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I'm reading it this morning and a new truth coming to me, things I hadn't seen before.

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And I'm thinking I had to write a book on that.

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uh Conversation with Jesus, volume three, the rehashing of volume one.

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Not gonna do it.

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Okay.

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not going to do that.

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Okay.

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Well, so that's one and two, Laleo and Evangeliso.

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And from preaching, where do we take it next?

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What's the next verb there?

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So.

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In verse 23, we see the word exhorted in our English text.

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The word under that in the Greek text is the word parakaleo.

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And I have fallen in love with this word.

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It is just a beautiful relational word.

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It's a compound verb.

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the kaleo is to call.

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And the para

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is alongside of.

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And the picture is calling people to your side.

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And I love, you know, you hear people use, we got to walk through life with them.

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And that's really the issue here is that the didosco, which comes to us in verse 26,

that's what we really need in people's lives.

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They need to learn the Bible.

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They need to be grounded in the Bible.

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They need to be trained in the Bible.

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That's the destination.

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So the destination is uh did ask go to to instruct, give them instruction in the word of

God.

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uh That's where we get our uh English word didactic.

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It's that really specific teaching, and it's it's imperative.

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That's the destination.

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But the pathway, the bridge that gets us to the destination is this

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hauling people into our lives.

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So one of the things that we saw modeled for us a couple of weeks ago on the podcast when

you had Cody on was that you guys have, uh, you actually meet on a weekly basis just

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because you're friends.

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You want to be with each other.

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Uh, you, you started walking through life together and that's, that's the key.

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The key is not, I've got to teach these people.

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Yes.

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That's the destination.

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But the key is let's start hanging out with these people.

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Let's start spending time with them.

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Let's call them to our side.

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It's beautiful, beautiful uh way of life that God calls us to.

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It's like I heard Walt Brock talk about something a long time ago that stuck with me.

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He said as a dad, um he'd kind of follow his sons into their various hobbies as they grew

up.

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And if you went into his garage, you'd see this kind of thing and that kind of hobby and

that kind of hobby, all these kind of hobbies that kids get into.

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And, you know, they changed hobbies fairly quickly because children kind of pick something

up, get tired of it and then go on to something else.

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And I think that

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Just like that's a good principle to follow in parenting, that we ought to follow our kids

into their hobbies.

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We, without, you know, obviously disobeying the Lord or doing something contrary to

Scripture, we ought to at some level follow our friends or the strangers or whoever God

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puts in our life into their hobbies.

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You know, I met a guy uh in a gun store.

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So I rented a spot to, you know, in that

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shooting in their shooting gallery or whatever.

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And I went and rented a booth and we went and shot together on a different day.

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uh Hey, Chris and uh the uh Jeff and Cody, they all play Halo.

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So guess what?

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For the first time in my life, I'm trying to learn how to play Halo.

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And I never thought I never thought I actually argued against it in my college years in

Bible college.

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You cannot use video games for evangelism.

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just it's a terrible idea.

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And now I'm using video.

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games to build relationships and love on these guys.

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And I really don't care for the video game.

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I really just care for the people on the other end.

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And so uh

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say this, you're you are going to end up having a lot of fun when you do that.

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God wants us to enjoy our lives.

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And one of the ways that he brings enjoyment into our lives by bringing people into our

lives.

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And I, it's all about the people.

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And it's it's about building the relationship with the people, you know, but especially

men shoulder to shoulder relationships are

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much more productive than face to face relationships.

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uh I'm not exactly why men are that way.

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Someone else will be smarter than me.

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We'll have to figure that out for me.

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But I just have observed down through the years when I go hunting with a friend, when I go

play golf with a friend, those are going to be opportunities for me to have real and deep

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conversations with them that

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that I probably would never have had if I said, would you have lunch and let's talk about

something?

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It's like that panics them, you know, but when I'm sitting in a golf uh cart with someone

as we're driving to the next hole, that kind of conversation is a lot easier.

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Right, right.

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And even if you, if the shoulder to shoulder thing, like there's some guys I know, the

shoulder to shoulder thing they love is eating together.

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And so what I'll do is I'll be like, hey man, let's go hit some wings or whatever and

we'll go there.

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And I won't really have a real agenda.

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I mean, I'll have some desires in my heart.

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I'll be praying that God brings up some things, but you'll be surprised ah what can come

up just sitting down eating together all of a sudden.

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somebody's like, well, we're gonna talk about the weather all day and then all of a sudden

they might feel comfortable like, hey, know, like, let's talk about this for a second or

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they'll ask you a tough question.

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I've also noticed that interacting with people in a group that you have to figure out how

to take it to an individual level because sometimes in a group setting, they're not, you

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know, three guys who aren't, you know, Christians yet or haven't accepted what the Bible

has to say yet about Jesus Christ, they're not gonna all of sudden be comfortable

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altogether.

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to maybe sometimes get into that.

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Sometimes, maybe rarely they will, but what I've noticed is to have that very much more

intimate conversation, you have to figure out how to have fun in a group setting and also

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have individual relationships and things with them on an individual level, ah to have

both.

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Just something I've noticed working with these.

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good.

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And sometimes getting together with a group will give you enough shoulder shoulder time to

be able to have a private conversation with them.

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So that's that's really good.

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I think that one of the things that we have to remember is the the relationship, the

calling someone to one side is the bridge.

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The destination is the the instruction.

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And so we can't, just like with evangelism, you can't let the conversation be the

destination.

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It's the pathway.

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ah Evangelism is the destination.

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Even so with uh discipleship, it's the getting into a person's life that gives you the

ability to genuinely disciple them and help them.

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I love the picture that we see of Jesus.

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When he wanted to be close to someone, he would say to them, follow me.

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come with me, let's do life together.

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And it was in that context that he discipled people.

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Hmm.

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You know, and what I love about pericleo, I know you, conversations, evangelism, and

assimilate, that's the points you make there in giving the exchange the book.

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But pericleo means comfort, means it's the word that's used to describe the activity of

the Holy Spirit, or the word used to describe, you know, what does a wife, uh you know,

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what does she do in the family?

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And she comforts the family and brings everybody together and brings you into each other's

lives.

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So I just love that whole, you just gotta open up your life to somebody.

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It's not about having a separate track for that person.

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It's bringing them on your track and saying, okay, well, this is something I'm doing this

Easter with my family.

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Wanna come?

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I mean, that's what it is.

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That can be a hard thing sometimes, because we wanna have everything compartmentalized in

our lives.

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But doing these kind of relationships means opening up your life to other people.

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It does.

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I love the idea that we have to open our life.

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That's really the picture of Pericleo is opening up.

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I am opening a door for you to come into my life.

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You mentioned it, but I'll say it specifically.

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This verb is the noun or the same word, but the noun form in John 14, 15 and 16.

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where Jesus is called the Comforter or in the modern translations the Helper.

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is, or actually the Holy Spirit is called the Comforter, the Helper.

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It's a beautiful picture.

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The Holy Spirit literally comes to abide.

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He comes to live.

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And that's the picture of when we have someone that God brings into our life as a convert.

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That's our baby.

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are now responsible and we're going to come into their life and live life with them.

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I love that.

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And I love the word of Biden in John 15.

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be with me, stay with me, ministry of presence.

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I mean, just show up in people's lives.

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It's an incredible thing.

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if you are wearing Jesus comfortably on your shirt sleeves.

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mean, when you are purposely living what I call the Christ life, demonstrating Jesus,

speaking Jesus, when I'm with someone, I'm going to be able to help them grow in the Lord

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because that's what God does through my life.

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And so I have to spend time with them in order for that to be able to.

355

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Yeah, amen, amen.

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And then this last point, didosco, this is instruction.

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This is actually where you get to doctrine.

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ah And so what do you do at this point?

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Well, in my life, I'm always going to work toward living the exchange.

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That's my go-to book.

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I actually wrote that book specifically to disciple the people that I had been leading to

Christ.

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I mean, I never wrote the book to publish it.

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I wrote it to be able to help people.

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But that particular book works through

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what practical spirit filled living looks like?

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How do I how do I actually walk in abiding in Jesus?

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So I mean, that's when he is called the Comforter, the helper, and we are called to abide

in him.

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How does that happen?

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And so I feel like we're called to help them.

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In fact, in uh John 15 and verse 16, he says, You have not chosen me, but I've chosen you.

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that you would bring forth fruit and then the next phrase is and that your fruit would

abide would remain.

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And so I feel like it is our responsibility when God gives us fruit when we see people

come to Christ.

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Now I have the responsibility of teaching them how to abide in Christ and you know your

goal is eventually for that person to begin to influence and impact other people and bring

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forth fruit.

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I think

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having Cody on a couple of weeks ago is a perfect example of that.

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I've already heard of people from a Mormon background who have been listening to that

particular episode because what Cody is doing is now teaching other people.

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And that's, that's really cool to be able to watch that happen by the relationship.

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The relationship gave you the opportunity to spend the time and train.

380

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And then now that he's been trained, he's going to be able to grow.

381

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Amen.

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Amen.

383

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And he's growing leaps and bounds.

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He's way further along in his walk with the Lord than I was that knew into the faith.

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it's incredible.

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mean, this is the real joy of what we get to do as Christians showing up in people's lives

and seeing this played out.

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And God's promises are true.

388

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We can take them to the bank.

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That's for sure.

390

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Well, yeah.

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there are some things that are not, it's not going to happen accidentally.

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So in other words, showing up, being present, that builds the platform.

393

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But now I have to actually be specific.

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These are the things that a person needs to know and we need to get them grounded into the

word of God.

395

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So I think using a book like living the exchange and actually purposely grounding them in

truth is really important.

396

00:31:10,154 --> 00:31:11,787

Yeah, amen, amen.

397

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uh Well, I think that kind of sums it up, those four verbs right there, in building a

bridge of relationship, it's conversation, evangelism, assimilate them into your life, and

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instruction, the four Greek words, laleo, evangelazo, parakaleo, and didasko.

399

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And so, really, really wonderful when you can just pull these things right out of the

scripture, which is our authority, and God's given to us as our sword, and so,

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We're really, really excited to see how God uses these to change the way you think about

relational evangelism and discipleship going forward in your life.

401

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And please be praying with us as we pray to the Lord of the Harvest that He would send

forth laborers and that He'd help us to reach people.

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The harvest is plenteous.

403

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There's so much relationship opportunity out there.

404

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And Jesus wants us to use our time urgently uh for this because time is short.

405

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We just had a blog article posted last week to the Exchange Blog.

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It says,

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Time is running out and so uh we want to use every moment of our life to leverage it for

the sake of the gospel, the sake of the kingdom of Christ.

408

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Thank you guys for listening.

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Subscribe if you haven't already and reach out to us if you have any questions, george at

exchangemessage.org.

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And remember, there's a hundred people we're looking for to give $25 a month, the cost of

a pizza, to uh offset these costs of expansion, help us expand and reach even more people,

411

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help get this curriculum out to other churches more.

412

00:32:35,153 --> 00:32:41,269

of the mission field, more churches overseas, ah and be the blessing that it is and more.

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Thank you guys, we love you guys, we'll see you guys next week.