What's going on, everybody?

Hi, everyone.

Hi.

Good afternoon.

Welcome back to the show.

Good evening, good afternoon, and good night.

Good mornings, and Jim Carrey's here.

Whatever.

I'm Derek.

I'm Matt.

Hadassa.

Brian.

And we have Brian and Hadassa back today. And a focus of our episode is Hadassa's Got a Story to tell.

Just one.

Well, I guess so. You said you wanted.

Depends on how long your story is.

Oh, I've got a few.

Yeah.

So we wanted to get. She. She's got an interesting background and such, so we want to dive into that today. So I guess. I mean, do you want to just kind of. What's. What's the label you want to put on, I guess your belief system?

So I am what's called a Messianic Jew.

Okay.

That's.

Which, you know, is a whole story within itself that we can dive into today.

Yeah, that's. That was what we were interested in.

Can you give us, like, a. Just a quick brief definition of what. What does it mean?

So Messianic Judaism is a. Is a. It's kind of like a hybrid religion, if you think about. It's a religion mixed with Christianity and Judaism. We have the traditional belief systems of Christianity, but we still maintain our Jewish identity to where we still maintain the traditions, and we still keep Torah, and we honor the law, and so we absorb that into ourselves while still maintaining Jesus, who we call Yeshua, and I'll probably be calling him that, the rest of the podcast as the Messiah.

So they acknowledge all the prophecy that was in the Bible as coming true through Jesus versus standard Judaism, where they say, you know, he was a prophet, but he's not.

No. Some of them don't even say he's a prophet, truthfully. Some say he was just a good man. No, just a person who had followers. And they all.

So, yeah, we're gonna get into that today. It would be fun. I actually wanted to say Messianic too, but I was like, that's the right term.

There's a lot of terms that have been attributed to us, and I cannot stand any of them. So this is the one that is the least offensive. That is the most accurate.

I was gonna say, if that one's offensive, then.

No.

Don't have a name.

No, no, no, no. Messianic Judaism is the official name, but there are so many people who have attributed other names that I find incredibly offensive. So that's okay.

Maybe we'll explore some of those.

We can.

So that's what we're Talking about today, we're jumping right into it. Welcome to the truth response. So I will pray today.

Okay.

Well, it's about time.

Wow, he's in a mood.

Holy cow.

Very serious today.

It's feisty.

How spicy.

I'm preparing. You know what, Honestly, I've been really affected this week, well, lately because I got the material that I'm bringing to the pulpit on Sunday is heavy, so.

So you're in a heavy mindset. I gotcha.

Yeah. Yeah. I usually like doing really encouraging. Like, I, I love to encourage people when I'm preaching, you know, because I'm a very grace based pastor. So I love being able to be like, look, guys, you know, let's get it, let's get it. You know, let's wrap our heads around it, let's go running with it kind of thing. This feels less like, hey, guys, let's encourage each other and more like, hey, I'm going to stand here with a baseball bat. Prepare yourselves.

Beat you over the head with a hammer.

Sometimes, sometimes the best kind of love is the tough love, you know, I

like the beating over the heads with the hammer.

Yeah, he's excited more times. All I tell, I have to tell him, he's like, I'm all ready to go.

So not, not for, not for people who are outside of the church or new to the church, but to the church people. Yeah, they need that. I mean, that's how Jesus handled it.

Within reason. Sure.

Yeah, that's how Jesus handled him.

But you didn't pray yet.

I, I get it. Would you like me to. Are you going to give me a moment to pray?

Yeah, why don't you go ahead and pray?

All right, fine.

Children, children.

Lord, we come to you today and just thank you for the ability to fellowship together, to have a good time. The humor and the, and the serious conversations around topics that man may be confusing to any one of us. And I just thank you for the opportunity to sit down and hear the belief system and the story from Hadassah and, and Brian and how, how they've, they've been able to build a family around this belief system and how that interacts as well. Lord, bring clarity to the conversation today. And I pray that what is said is what people need to hear. It's in your precious holy name we pray. Amen.

Amen.

Amen.

So I guess let's start with. Tell us about your Jewish background.

Okay, well, that's okay. So my Jewish background is that when you look at my heritage, my mother's side of the family, is where the Jewish lineage came from. So we were able to trace our heritage all the way back to Juan Ponce de Leon, who is like my fourth great uncle or something like that. So when you. We were able to trace it all the way back there. And then we found that within that lineage, there was immigration into Spain from our family, and we found that they were Sephardic Jews. Okay. And very recently, actually, before my mother passed away, I found out that they were cryptic Jews because during the Spanish Inquisition, a lot of Jews would quote, unquote, convert, right? To be safe, right? To be saved from being killed. But they would still practice in secret, right? So what they did was they would change their suffix of their last name. So if they. If you're Spanish heritage and your name ends in, like, ez, like Gomez Fernandez Hernandez, then it's a strong possibility that your family might have a history of cryptic Judaism. And it's called cryptic because it was hidden. You would keep everything hidden at one point, and I'm not sure when, but at one point, my family left Spain and went to. They took a boat and they went to the Caribbean and they settled in Cuba, and, you know, they lived a little more freely until Batista, who was a dictator and he took over the regime and he introduced some pretty strict thought processes regarding religion. It wasn't necessarily outlawed, but it wasn't necessarily encouraged. It was seen as kind of like, you know, there's no reason to do it. You really shouldn't do it. People were still getting killed. They were still being put in jail for, you know, speaking out against the regime. But it was. It was just. It was just part of daily life. So my great grandmother would go to mass with my grandmother, and they would go to mass and they would put on airs of being Catholic, but then at home, they would celebrate Shabbat. They would, you know, have, like. They would say things that at mass, when it would be peace with you and also with you and all that, you know, they would dismiss. And my great grandmother would tell my grandmother, who was a little girl, she would say, you know, shabbat Shalom, and that's, you know, good Shabbos, good Saturday, however you want to say it. And so because of that, when my grandmother. My great grandmother passed away, my grandmother kept the tradition to an extent. She pulled away from Catholicism, pulled away from her Jewish identity, and she embraced more of, like, a spiritual type of mindset. She would go to mass, and she had my mom, I think she was. When you do the catechism and you go through Confirmation and all that, she went through all of that. But beyond that, it was very much a Sunday Christmas type of situation for them. And so my mom knew and she didn't really tell me that when I was 13, I actually had a Bat Mitzvah, but nobody even told me. It was more of a 13 year old birthday party in a way, but at church, because longer story, before my mom told me about our Jewish identity, she converted to Christianity from Catholicism. So she.

You said converted. Converted to Christianity from Catholicism. So you're saying Catholicism isn't Christianity?

Many Catholics will tell you that. No, it's not because of the split between the Protestant and the Christian church. There is this priest that I've listened to online, his name is Father Mike, I think, and he himself has said the reason why Catholics will not call themselves Christian is because of the belief system that the Protestants hold are different than the Catholics in different aspects. And don't ask me to go too deep into that because I haven't. This is just based off of what another expert has said. And so I'm kind of just using that information to explain what happened with my mom.

Plus, I think it's also influenced Brian

used to be Catholic.

Plus I think it's also influenced because of the fact that again, since she's from the Caribbean, the Catholic culture also got mixed with santero, which is kind of like a Caribbean kind of witchcraft, voodoo. So for that area, that region, Catholicism was seen as something evil and not Christian because it had that mixture of santero which was that witchcraft part of it.

But I want to be very, very, very careful with that too because Santeria has Afro Caribbean roots. Right. From an African religion that, that is similar to voodoo, but it's not voodoo because voodoo is more Caribbean. So that Afro religion was mixed in with Catholicism. Catholicism in the Caribbean itself is not necessarily mixed with Santeria, but because Santeria has pulled from Catholic roots, it can be seen from the outside as, oh, they're mixing the two. So I just want to be very careful for the listeners who might be Catholic, I want to make sure that they understand that. My mother grew up in a traditional Roman Catholic church, but there were still influences from outside within the culture that she was growing up in. It wasn't necessarily like, you know, she didn't have, you know, Chango sitting in the garage. It wasn't like that. But you know, she would have the statues and she would have the crucifix, she would have the candles.

Right. But the perception, there was a perception, there was a perception that Catholicism was integrated with that. I'm not saying they are, but.

Because, again, I just want to make sure. Because.

Because that's just from that. From that culture, that region. Because remember what happened with my dad at the church one time? So we won't get into that.

That's also no different than the early church. Right? Like, that's. That. That was a lot of the warnings that Paul gave to the early churches was, hey, keep it separate. All of these things are coming in. These people are being converted. They have a way of life that they're already used to. Yeah, there's. That's why there was. Elders were defined. You know, deacons were defined. You know, all of these different things were defined. And. And most of Corinthians was written because of it. You know, like, so. So with that, it's no different than that. I just want our listeners to hear, like, it. It's the same kind of correlation.

So just. I want to get back. Get you back on track here. So. So you said, so your mother was a Christian. At what point did you really find out about any kind of Jewish background?

So, yeah, so like I said, you know, I had a bat mitzvah without realizing I had one because my parents were pastors. My mother knew about her Jewish identity, and she. She just kind of kept it hidden from me. And then When I turned 13, my parents had me read from the Bible, from the Old Testament. They had me do all these things. I just thought it was a regular Sunday service. Then we had a little party, and I said, a few blessings, and that was it. It didn't mean anything to me other than being 13, which, funny enough, it's supposed to be done at 12, but that's another story. Anyway, I was in college, and I was studying to be a pastor. That was my feeling. Like, I was like, I need to be a pastor. My parents are pastors. I want to do this. I want to. I want to follow in their footsteps, especially my dad, who was like, my inspiration to be a pastor. I wanted to be a singer. I wanted to do everything that he did. And my mom was a powerhouse preacher, so I wanted to have the same giftings she had. And then I was in college, and that's where I met Brian. And I was studying in a class called Biblical Languages, and we talked about Cryptic Judaism, and I mentioned it to my parents, and I was like, did you know that I wonder if we have, like, Jewish heritage? Because my maiden name at the time was Fernandez. And I said, I wonder if that's something that, you know, we should look into. And my mom just made it so simple. She was like, well, honey, of course we are Jewish. I was like, what are you talking about? And she told me you had a bat Mitzvah. We did this and that. And I was like, I had literally no idea. So when I was in college, I was probably around 18, and I said, well, I want to research this. I started going to a hillel because where I was going to college, there was no Chabad. And Chabad is one of the more open denominations in Judaism. They pretty much accept almost every. Pretty much everybody to come in. Jews, non Jews, you just come in and learn. And it's very open. And the hillel was led by students, so they were not as open the way a chabad would be, but they were still, because they were led by students, it was a little more engaging. So, you know, you could go if you weren't Jewish and you could probably, like, do things, but you couldn't bring food. There were certain things you weren't allowed to do. As with the Chabad, you weren't allowed to do things. So I learned more about my Jewish side by going to a non Christian organization to gain the historical and the traditions. And then when I got married, by then I decided I was like, this is. I need to find a way to hybridize these two. Like, there is no. I didn't know that Messianic Judaism was even an option. I figured you either were Jewish or you were Christian. There was no mix. And I ended up meeting a rabbi who was Messianic, and he's the one who kind of like burst my bubble and said, actually, let me introduce you to Messianic Judaism, which is where it all began.

So at what point in your life then would you have accepted Jesus or Yeshua is your savior?

Oh, I was six. That never changed.

Okay.

Yeah, I was six. And I was actually late for school. And I turned to my dad. We were in front of the school. I was late. I was already late for school. And I turned to my dad. I go, daddy, can I? I want to ask Jesus in my heart. And we did the sinner's prayer right then and there. And then I went off to school, school, off on my merry way. So I never lost that faith. I've never lost it since I was 6.

Okay, so for those listening, you. When you, as a Messianic Jew, you believe in the. Both. All of the Old Testament and the New Testament?

Yes. Everything points to Yeshua, both Old and new.

Okay. Okay. You have a Question next. I've been asking a lot of questions.

No, go for it.

Well, since you mentioned the Old Testament, I'll just take the reins until you guys come up with something. But. Okay, Okay. I wasn't sure. Go ahead.

Okay, so my question would be, what are the misconceptions that Christians also have about Messianic Jews?

A lot of Christians, and I want to be really specific when I say Christians because I think there's a very big difference between Christians that maybe are from a different denomination, maybe they're raised in a different mindset, versus mainstream Christianity, which can be a little more, I guess, accepting or watered down kind of culturally. So there. It really does depend on who you're talking to. Some people will look at me and say, oh, she's Jewish. She's not Christian because she keeps kosher, she keeps Shabbos, she, you know, keeps the law, and, you know, things like that. And then there's other people who say, oh, she's Christian because she doesn't cover her hair and she doesn't, you know, she goes to church on Sundays also. And she, you know, whatever. So. So it really depends on who you're talking to. But what was your question?

What's common misconception?

Maybe I should rephrase it. So let me ask you this question. Why both? Why not just Christian then? If Christ is your savior, sure. Why Messianic Jew and not just Christian?

Because why would I want to give up my identity, right? Not just my ethnic identity, but my spiritual identity to be able to conform to something that's only been around for 2,000 years. So to say, specifically for me, Messianic Judaism is just, it makes sense. It's what the apostles were. It's what, you know, Jesus wasn't a Christian, but, you know, Jesus instilled in Jews. You know, this is, you don't have to give up your identity. And he, he was very strict on, you know, whenever he healed someone, show yourself to the priest. Why? Because that was part of tradition. That's part of that culture. So just because he healed someone doesn't mean that he's going to like, tell you, okay, go along your merry way and don't, don't follow what Torah says.

What about Paul, then, when he would infer that the necessity of being Jewish first isn't a necessity or the fact that he points out in Romans that the law condemns and can't save us and therefore that's why Jesus came. Which kind of not saying that the law therefore has no merit, but that our Real hope is not in the law or keeping the law. It is in our relationship with Jesus.

Right, but you're answering your own question in a way. So you are. Just listen. So Paul, right, he said, the law cannot save you. That's it. Point blank. The law Torah cannot save you. The purpose of the law prior to Jesus was to maintain holiness. It wasn't to save you. There was no salvation then. It was to maintain holiness and to keep Jews set apart. Now, when Paul is talking about the law doesn't save you and it has no merit, he's referring to spiritual salvation. It doesn't mean it has no merit in life or in your walk. It means that it holds no ground on salvation. When Jesus died, when Yeshua died on the cross, it wasn't to abolish the law, it was to fulfill it. When you fulfill a contract, it doesn't make that contract void. Okay, you've now fulfilled that contract.

If it is fulfilled, then why continue to carry it forward as of utmost importance?

If I.

Okay, go ahead.

I'm just.

No, I know. Totally fine. If I make a contract with you that I'm going to deliver 100 pallets of mustard or something every single week, the first time I delivered that hundred pallets of mustard, I have fulfilled the contract. Does that mean that I now don't continue to fulfill it?

Okay, you said every single week. If you said I'm going to deliver 100 pallets of mustard and then you deliver 100 pallets of mustard, like if it's not every single week, then it's fulfilled and therefore there's no need for more mustard. Do you see what I'm saying?

No. Because the fulfillment of the contract does not make it void. It continues on when you're married. In Jewish tradition, we sign a contract, we sign a ketubah. So when Brian and I are married, when we sign our ketubah, we're saying we make a covenant. We're making a contract, a covenant that this is what we're going to fulfill. I will fulfill xyz. He's going to fulfill xyz. And that is the difference between what your mentality is, where you're seeing Torah as this contractual agreement, when it's more of a covenant. When Abraham walked through the blood sacrifices that God had done, he was creating a covenant, not a contract.

So question.

Yeah.

When did Abraham walk through the blood sacrifices?

Am I getting it wrong? It is Abraham, wasn't it?

No, he didn't actually. He saw a torch and a smoking pot go through which were Both representatives of God. If you look at the story again, actually, what's more amazing about it is that God's basically taking on both sides of the contract on himself, saying that.

You keep saying contract. It's not a contract.

Listen, listen, listen. No matter how you want to word that word, if we're getting into some semantics there.

Semantics matter.

Listen, I agree.

Under the covenant, he's taking on both sides on himself, basically stating that if one side fails, he's taking on the punishment of both. And he does.

Can I interject a little bit?

Please do, please do, because I'm going to pull this up so I can.

Because again, I have a different perspective because again, I am not a Messianic Jew. I identify as Christian.

And so I'm not trying to attack. No, no, no, no.

I'm trying to clarify. That's what I'm saying. I'm not feeling attacked at all. So I'm trying to clarify. So. Because what I'm saying is I identify as Christian, so I have a different perspective because, you know, I'm in both parts. So when you're asking those kind of questions about, you know, well, I thought Jesus was. Because that is one of the things that a lot of people will ask. And so we have to remember a couple different things. So the Old Testament was designed for the Jewish people. And then when Paul's talking about that, again, you can reference even in Acts where it said, you know, where they had that council, and say, okay, all these new converts, as long as they don't do this list of things, then it's okay. But that didn't negate the fact that there were still Christian Jews that were still doing those things. And nowhere did it say that those are invalidated. And so the big thing is. And you know, I think that there's, there's honor in some of the things in the Old Testament.

I think there completely is.

And because again, you know, because. And I know a lot of people use this argument, but, you know, I don't want to just because we're not throwing out the Ten Commandments when Jesus, you know, died on the cross.

Absolutely not.

Right. And so there's. So there are parts of the Old Testament that Christians apply. And even in the Old Testament, in Leviticus, where God sets up the festivals for the Jew to celebrate it, he says, these are a permanent thing that I require for you to do.

I'll give you some insight into why I'm going into this line of thinking. So I'll jump ahead to jump back. So you Know when Paul talks about those and he's trying to address those who are Judaizers, who are trying to say, look, if you want to come to faith in Christ, you first have to become Jewish first. And Paul's like, absolutely not. That's ridiculous. You don't have to do that. You can go to Jesus Christ. And I say that for a reason. So that would mean that there is no necessity then to go back and do that in order to follow Christ. My question. I started to line those questions up because I'm really just trying to see where your perspective comes in. Because you had Christ first and then you went back and added Judaism.

It's not going back. I don't believe.

Well, but you didn't really have that. You mean. Yes, it's your heritage. I'm not attacking. Yes, it's your heritage. Yes. You know, like your family had stuff, but you as a person did not have any of that in full practice and even to your awareness until later. And so then you went back and added that back in. And I'm just. That's where I'm. My real question is, why? Why add that back in when you already had what you needed?

You have to think of it this way. If you found out that you had a royal lineage, right? And there was a promise attached to that lineage, you can. And you're still who you are. You can and you have the ability to go back and get that blessing from your royal lineage. And you say, hey, I'm actually royal. I want this blessing. I want this inheritance that is owed to me that I was not aware of. So for me, when I discovered that we were Jewish and I discovered that aspect of my heritage, my DNA, truly my bloodline, I said, I want to claim the inheritance that is attached to that. There is a special blessing that is attached to that. I want that.

What is it? What is that inheritance? What's that special blessing that. That I couldn't get.

I didn't say you couldn't get it. That I'm saying as a person. Jews in selves. Okay? Jewish is. How do I put this? It's like an ethnocentric people group. It's more than a religion. It's more than a. It's more than like where you're born or how you're. It's like a combination of everything. Okay? Just because you're Israeli doesn't mean you're Jewish. Right? And just because you're Jewish, it doesn't mean you're Israeli. It doesn't mean you Know, it's, it's. It has to do with. Gosh, I don't know how to best describe this.

I think what she's trying to say is like, she's saying that there's a special inheritance like that royal lineage, right? That. And so it's not saying that you are incapable because again, pulling back to the scripture and everything like that. So let's go back to say, the parable of the wedding feast where, you know, where he says, the king invites all these people and people are like, oh, I can't come. I can't come. So that's the context of some of the people of that day, of the religion that is rejecting him. And then he said, well, I'll send it to these people. Send it to the. And so they still got to participate in the wedding feast. But it's that initial gifting and that initial reception of that invitation that Judaism carries with them. I mean, it's all throughout the Bible. It says that, you know, Jewish people are children of God. And so we've been adopted and grafted in. It says, but, you know, so they have, you know.

Well, that's kind of the question then, is so for. I mean, I'm doing this mainly as advocate for all the listeners, right? Because I believe that the majority of our listeners have no Jewish heritage whatsoever. So when you're using words like I'm claiming the heritage, if I'm using you're claiming your inheritance, your blessing, and therefore what you're saying, in a way, it sounds like you can have something that the rest of us can't have.

To some degree, I'm going to say to some degree, yes, there are some things that are just for.

What is that?

It's. I can't put it into words. So the only way I can keep thinking of it is in analogies. Okay, so Esau and Ya', Aqob, okay, Esau and Yaakov. Esau was the firstborn. He had a special blessing that he alone could take on. Okay? Think of Esau as the Jewish people. They have a special blessing that only they can take. It doesn't mean that if you're not. That you're not going to receive a blessing, but there's a special one that is given to the firstborn. Then Ya' Aqob came and he got that special blessing given to him because Esau decided he didn't want to. You know, he gave it up for whatever reason. So now it passes to Ya'. Aqob. But Ya' Aqob is not the one who was the original intended for that blessing.

Maybe not. But here's the interesting thing about using that story as your analogy is that if you, you are saying that Esau is like Israel or the Jewish people. Esau rejected his blessing, so did the Israel, so did the Jews.

Yes.

And so then it goes to the other, which is bias.

Yes.

So if the blessing has come to us, then what other blessing could there be?

It doesn't negate the fact that Esau had that blessing. And you're also assuming that the entirety of the Jewish people are the ones who have rejected that blessing.

No, but then the blessing that then gets for those who are willing to accept Christ, then we are all part of the same blessing.

You're trying to make this into the two stick theory. It sounds like you're trying to. It's two sticks or two branches. Basically, the theory is that there are Jews and there are Christians and when you become a Christian, you are grafted in with the Jews and you become a Jew. That is not, that is not what we're trying to do.

I'm absolutely not trying to do that. I am actually saying that there is those who follow Christ and accept who he is and there are who don't, and that's the difference.

But you also have to understand a person can still follow Christ and still maintain the identity of who they are and what they choose to believe and how they choose to live out and practice who they are.

My challenge wasn't like, okay, I promise you, I'm not trying to be mean.

I'm not taking it as mean. I'm a very passionate person. So when I have conversations, I get loud. I'm not mad.

My challenge was more on the fact that, you know, like, it wasn't that you grew up in a Jewish household that was completely Orthodox or Hasidic or anything.

No, I understood your question.

And then we're like, oh my gosh, Jesus is the Messiah. Yeshua is the Messiah, right? It was Jesus is the Messiah. Oh, wait, I have a Jewish heritage. And then you implemented that back in which interesting to me considering this. Like, I'm just trying to understand the need then because, well, I'm not trying.

So maybe, maybe the best way to describe it would not be. It's not so much a need. Right. Because a person who is raised Jewish and decides to follow Yeshua, they have their own choices. Everyone has a choice. So if a person is Christian and they find out that they're Jewish, they have the choice to implement that knowledge or not. If A Jewish person discovers that Yeshua is the Messiah, they have the choice to either implement Christian traditions into their way of life or not. The problem is that you're seeing it as a black and white and it's not black and white. There is no black and white in this because it is subjective to each individual person's conviction, each and every single person's choice on whether or not they want to absorb that into their way of life or not. It does not save you, it does not condemn you. There is no negative, there is no negative connotation to it and there is no positive. It is simply is.

Then when you're saying the word blessing or inheritance or whatever, are you meaning like the fact that you get a different sense of joy because now you're actually interacting with your heritage, or is it, is it something that God is giving specially only to.

No, I don't want to say it's something special just for Jewish Christians because that sounds very exclusionary.

Well, I mean, Christianity is exclusionary to some degree.

It is. To some degree. It is exclusionary. But I think that when I'm saying there's like a special blessing or a special inheritance, even my rabbi would tell you that, you know, I'm probably saying it not the right way.

Sure. That's what we're trying to get to the point.

I would love for you guys to have him on shout out to Rabbi Scott Fingerson in Fort. He's Chef's kiss. He's very, very good. He's very good theologian. But anyway, he would probably sit here and say, well, it's not so much a different blessing as much as it is. There's just a calling that is different. The calling does not have to be the same for every single person. Sure.

Well, I agree with that.

That would probably be the best if I'm channeling my rabbi right now. The best way to describe is that the calling is different for each person. The gospel was originally sent first for the Jews and then for the Gentiles. That was the original intention. First for the Jews and then for the Gentiles. Does that mean that Jews are better? No. Does that mean that they have some sort of different standing? Yes, because they are the older sibling, they are the firstborn. That doesn't mean that they are better, but they have a different standing in the eyes of God. And you also have to take into account it's not a Jew who necessarily. It doesn't. It's not based off of DNA. It's not. It's based on heart, attitude, it is partially, I think, based my opinion, my heresy, it is partially based on DNA, but it's not exclusively based on DNA.

I would argue that Jesus would disagree with you on that. I think that Jesus would absolutely say that Jewish, Jewishness, Jesus would would say Jewishness is your lineage. It absolutely is. He would have to argue for that, for, for his lineage.

Right, right.

Or else somebody else, he could have been born as a gentile and then chosen to die for the Jews. And that doesn't make sense. Right, like, so, so that has to be.

I can see, I can see your point of view on that.

So, yeah, I think that, yeah, the big thing is, is that, you know, like, I think we're starting to flesh out is the fact that it's not saying that they're mutually exclusive to each other. And you know, you're rejecting one for the other just because you say you're messianic Jew now you're rejecting all that. You know, again, I'm, I'm going from a perception of, again, I'm grew up Christian. I even grew up Catholic in the beginning. And so, you know, I even, and even to some you're Torah observing standard. But even to some Christians there was this perception of the Jews are the bad guys. They're the ones that killed our savior and everything like that. And that's not true. I mean, yes, there were Jewish people that were leaders and people that did reject them, but as a collective, every one of them is bad. I don't think so. I mean, again, going back to the Bible, Israel has been set apart countless times and lifted up countless times and restored countless times by God to show that there is a favor placed upon them and God has a special place in his heart for them. That's not negating what gentiles have been given and been grafted into that. So there is no negation of that. But, but we also can't negate the fact that there is that original group of people that were given a special place to be called, to be set apart and be a witness to the nations of the world, granted they screwed it up and rejected it and made a lot of mistakes.

I would definitely completely agree with you that anyone who looked at the Jewish nation as a complete whole of the Jewish people as a whole and said all of them rejected Jesus would be completely ignorant of their scriptures, considering that a he, he himself was born a Jew and his immediate followers were Jewish, including one of our greatest evangelists who was Paul, who went from, you know, zealous one way Jew to zealous Christian Jew. You know what I mean? Like, so he. And he knew what it was to do, huh?

Christian Jew, you know what you can.

But you know, but you get what I'm. My point like that. That would be ridiculous outright, you know, so. No, so it's not about. I will say this. Let's shift it a little bit because you'll have some insights that possibly those who may be wondering about why, you know, there was such a difference in opinion on who Jesus is from the Jewish standpoint. Why do you believe? Or have you come to understand maybe they'll be better. Did the Jews reject Jesus? And maybe what even are they being taught about Jesus today?

So what? In my studies and in the circles that I run with, I run with a very special, different kind of people. I run with Jews that believe in Jesus and I run with Jews that don't believe in Jesus. I run with Jews that observe Yeshua as Messiah and some who don't. So what I have found is oftentimes the ones who choose not to accept Yeshua as Messiah, oftentimes they say because the Messiah will restore Israel, they will bring. He will bring about the kingdom, he will fulfill all these prophecies. And many times there is. I think it's Isaiah 53. No, Ezekiel 53, I think that is. Is. Is completely ignored. It doesn't exist.

I often run into that where Isaiah 53.

Isaiah 53. Yeah. Sorry, why did I say Ezekiel?

No, it's okay.

Isaiah 53. Isaiah 53 is oftentimes thrown out as add on, add on Scripture that was added later. And so they're saying, oh, this was added by Christians. These are added by the Jews that were following Yeshua. They're the ones who added this in. And so now it's become accepted. And it's like they just don't believe

that, which is a ridiculous claim considering that if you look into history, they never would have gotten away with that ever, because too many would have had something to oppose them with. I mean, they did quote that specifically, which is interesting that they quoted it in a way that would reference so that everyone had heard it before and bring new meaning to it. But I would say this to anyone, like, because if you got Isaiah 53, like put it right next to Psalm 22.

I know.

Oh my goodness. It's the same thing.

They're parallel.

It's the same scene. It's a complete.

It's parallel.

It's amazing.

Copy paste.

Absolutely amazing. And so how can you reject both those things? I mean, it's sitting there right in

front of you because they'll say, well, because Jesus. Because Yeshua was. Was a Jew, right? And you're looking at Psalm 22. Yeah, right. They're saying, well, he was a rabbi. Everybody knows he was a rabbi, that he was learned. He's not an idiot, he's not some schmo off the street who's Jewish and says all these nice things. They acknowledged that he was a rabbi, he was a teacher, he knew the law, he knew his history. So it would make sense that he would want to glorify himself on the cross as he's dying and to say, oh, listen, Psalm 22. I'm gonna say, you know, my God, my God, why have you forsaken me? I'm calling your attention to it because I want you to believe that I'm the rabbi. So they believe he was cuckoo for Loko puffs.

But that's the interesting thing is like, how. What control did he have? The idea to crucify him wasn't his, right. It was theirs, right? So if he's pointing it out, that's like, that's either he's the one of the most incredible, insane opportunists in the world, Right. Or he is exactly what he's claiming.

And that is the argument that oftentimes comes up. And there are some that has to happen there.

Like, especially when they study their own language and how Psalm 22 is written. And they basically, as Psalm 22 finishes, in a way, it says exactly what Jesus said right before he died. It is finished. So if you're looking at your own language, your own background, and you have this scene out in front of you and the things that happened, by the way, which he had no control over, like them casting lots for this stuff and jeering at him and all this stuff, how possibly can you sit there and go, this totally wasn't. Had nothing to do. He was just insane. Like, that's. No, I'm not. It's just wild. It's just wild the amount of ignorance that has to take place.

Well, I agree, but I think the other thing that we have to look at is, you know, modern days and stuff like that, and maybe even back then is again, you know, the Jews had several times, you know, completely forgot about the law. And then there was times where they were really hyper vigilant about it. And I think.

I think completely forgot is the right.

Yeah. When they rebuilt the temple in like Nehemiah and everything, it was years before anybody had heard the law being read and they were like, what is this? And so. But so the fact is that I think that in Jesus time and everything, and even into modern days, I'm going to loosely use the example where Jesus was talking to the Pharisees and saying, you're more concerned about washing the outside of the cup versus the inside. So you're worried about more of the procedure and the planning and the things that are involved in making it look like it's holy versus dealing with what needs to truly make it holy. And I think that's where a lot of people in the Jewish faith sometimes have a hard time is because in modern times, I think it's become more about the procedure and the process of the holiness itself. And I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but this is just from my personal observation, because I've had conversations and I've listened to podcasts and everything where there was a group of rabbis that were arguing over, and they were given an example of that an apartment complex was on fire on the Sabbath, and they were arguing over whether or not it was lawful for them to put out the fire because it was on a Sabbath and therefore they would be working. And so the problem with. I think.

Where did you hear that example, by the way? I'm just curious.

Gosh, that was a podcast I listened

to a long time. Can I. Can I interrupt you? I'm going to interrupt you. Okay. I'm going to do. I don't even know why I asked. That was ridiculous for me to ask.

It was kind of you

for me and for the. I'm going to say 99.9% of practicing Jews will tell you that is the dumbest analogy they've ever heard. Every single rabbi will tell you. Every single one. It doesn't matter if it's Shabbos or not. If you're going to save a life, it is lawful to save a life and break Torah.

No, but there's no people. It's just the building on fire itself.

But that's what I'm trying to say. So if there's no people, you also have to understand that within Jewish culture, there are Jews who work on Shabbat in hospitals, in fire departments and things like that. And within Jewish communities, there's special dispensation for things like that. Because, yes, maybe someone is not inside of the apartment at that time, but that apartment, it sustains a family. It sustains. So you are. It is lawful to save that apartment building because it belongs to a family. And they need.

Here's the thing with that. Here's the thing with that. Here's the thing with that.

There's no thing.

No, no, listen, listen. Here's the thing with that. That's nuisance Christianity.

What is nuisance Christianity?

That concept is nuisance Christianity.

Because they sense, like annoying or nuisance like a new sense.

Since Christianity came along, two different things. It's newer because of Christianity. That mindset for Judaism is new because of Christianity, because of Jesus.

No, where did you get that?

Because when Jesus and the disciples ate and is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath and they threw a fit. Yeah. No, they did not throw a fit.

They didn't throw a fit because it wasn't lawful to heal on the Sabbath. They did it because Yeshua was the one doing it.

Well, that's completely right.

But even when they walked in the field and just picked a couple grains ahead and just ate it, it was

because it was him. It has nothing. But he also said, with the law,

Jesus in his word said, you know, any of you had a sheep that fell into a hole when you pull it out? Like if. Yeah, it's like, it's kind of ridiculous. He's trying to show them the loopholes and that kind of thing like that.

I don't think they're loopholes. He's just trying to remind them, like, hey, you know this answer. Why are you acting like you don't.

But that's. That was my whole point. But that was my whole point, is that some of the people of this day and back then, they were more focused on the process and the letter. And that's what Jesus whole point was. They were focused on the letter and observing that and finding identity in the being in the letter. And say, just like how Paul said, among Jews, I was the top guy. So he's like, there's nobody that could point a finger at me to say that I did anything wrong.

So if anybody, what would he say it was right? It's like, he's like, no, he said it worse than that. Yeah, he said it worse than that. He's like.

He's like, look.

And I love it because he does. He gives his resume. He's like, I'm the dude. I'm the dude. I'm the dude. I'm the dude. Nobody can challenge me on how the dude I was. And by the way, I think it's all dog poop. Yep, it's dog poop. It's ridiculous. It's worthless. It's. You know, and I think that's funny because. And you're Right. Because there's such an emphasis on what I can do, what I can achieve. And. And that was part of the problem, I believe, is the heart problem of, like, I got to go through the system and check off the boxes. And that became their God more than God was their God.

Exactly.

I think to some, I'm going to agree with you to a degree. I'm not going to say. I'm not going to say that it became their God because I think that that's. I think that's blasphemy. I think that's wrong. But what I do believe is that they put more emphasis on the tradition to please God rather than the Spirit behind that tradition, the heart behind it. Correct. So it wasn't that the 613 commandments were, you know, that is my God now. It was more, I have to fulfill this to make God happy.

Well, I mean, there was also a disconnect. When you look at the beginning of Isaiah God, you can sense God's frustration where he's like, what are these? What are these?

What are you doing?

Yeah, like, I don't want your sacrifices. What is all this? They were going through the motions, but

their heart wasn't still thinking idolatry.

The whole reason behind it.

What do you feel is idolatry?

I feel like that's still idolatry.

Okay.

Specifically the fact that they made the letter of the law. The point. That's idolatry.

The law of.

I need clarity on your point before I can rebut. Because it sounds. No, I do. Because it sounds like what you're saying. Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I need clarity as to, from your perspective, what it is you're trying to say when you say that following the law became idolatry. Because for me, idolatry is very cut. Very cut. And like an idol, a physical thing.

So what is it you're trying to say idolatry is. Well, it's not necessarily a physical thing.

Okay.

It's the idea of self being more important than anything else. But I would also say that power being more important than anything else or strict adherence to the rules with no exception is also, you know, anything you're raising above God.

It can be anything but God.

Yeah.

Is singing songs to God on Sunday morning when that becomes more important than your relationship with him, it's idolatry.

Okay.

Yeah. I mean, does that make sense to

what I'm trying to say?

It makes better sense now because it's kind of like when the preacher is sitting there and he says, oh, your Kids can become an idol because they're more important than God or your husband or your. So it makes more sense now. But see, in my brain is saying it's a physical thing, it's a person, but you're saying it's a concept. And that's where the disconnect was for me. But I understand now.

Okay? Yeah. So, I mean, that's the idea.

I think that's what he was trying.

Yeah, Isaiah, that's what you get a sense of. And it's crazy because you would think of. I mean, you know, the Old Testament does a really great job, okay? The Old Covenant does a fantastic job of showing us just how much if you put it into our hands, we're going to mess it up. So, I mean, if it does anything thoroughly, if God puts it in our hands, we're going to mess it up. And so Jesus comes. But in Isaiah, you get this sense. I mean, he is just so frustrated that he's come back. And he said it again and again and again. You know, get. Get out of your own way. Stop putting these other things more important. And the fact that, like, you have experiences in the Bible like Elijah and the prophets of baal, and they're like, they're calling down, he's just making fun of them for nothing. And then, you know, he just talks to God and he burns up everything, including a soaked offering like. And what's interesting about that is that they fell victim, right. At the. Those who were letting their religion become their idol instead of their God. We'll say it this way, fell victim to the very same things that Jezebel and their people did. Because here is Elijah going. This will surely get their attention. This will surely change their minds. Their falsehood is going to be defeated by the one true God. And their falsehood was defeated by the one true God.

Right.

And all they wanted to do was run him out of town. Right. And they wanted to kill him. And so it's funny that you can be supporting of one thing one moment and then fall victim to the very same thing the next minute. It's what happens when we continue to do it ourselves. That's why even today, this is why church leadership, churches need to continue to check what we're doing and make sure that we haven't put too much of ourselves in it, that we haven't run in a direction that God's not in.

So let me ask you a question.

Sure.

I'm gonna ask both of you a question because I already know where Brian stands on this. Do you find value in pushing, not pushing, in hollering back to the Old Covenant, to the first covenant. Do you ever acknowledge, I would think,

acknowledge or recognize that there's merit in

finding that there is merit in, you know, the dietary laws is a perfect example. Why did we have them? Because there was a standard at that time to set us apart from the pagans that they were living among. They had to have. If people say, oh, it has to do with cleanliness, yes, but also it had to do with setting them apart because the pagans were doing one thing with their animal sacrifices, we were doing another. So it was very important to make sure that there was a separation so that there was no confusion between the Jews and the pagans that they were living among. So do you find value in acknowledging the.

Before you get serious, Let me go.

I want to see, I want to hear. Do you understand my question?

Because I get what you're saying, but I don't see that any different than how do you feel about tattoos? Because I think that that was the same thing that was with regards to what? To not having yourself tattooed for the dead. And people's argument today of like, well, you're not allowed to have tattoos because the Old Testament says you can't have a tattoo. It's misunderstanding, but also it's taken out

of context as well.

And that happens all the time.

Yeah, I think context, which, that's why I said semantics matters all the time.

But that's. That's what. So, you know, don't. Don't call unclean what God has made clean. There's all that. But I think that. But it's all. It's all. It's. To your.

It's wrapped in the same loop.

You just said, don't eat unclean food. That was the example you gave. And I was rebutting.

And that's fine.

And I think that it's important for us to know all of that, too. I mean, I'm not saying that that's not good. I think that it's important for us to understand the concept of what the Ten Commandments was teaching us. And Jesus clarifications, they're further even of those things. And so, like, yeah, I think it's important to have our history. I think it's important to note that. And this is for our listeners, that, you know, some things are prescriptive and some things are descriptive. So not everything is a, you should do it this way. That is written in the Old Testament. But there are things like what you're talking about that are you should do things this way.

This is the way you do it.

And I think that, that. I think that a lot of that was done away with for Christians, for Gentiles, at the very least.

Gentiles, I would argue maybe for Gentiles,

I'm not saying get rid of the Old Testament.

I would argue that for the Jews.

I think the Old Testament and the New Testament both point towards Jesus.

Absolutely.

And I think that they're both necessary for that.

We can absolutely agree on that. We can absolutely agree that everything in the Bible, from Old Testament, from Genesis to Revelation, it all points to Messiah, Jesus.

Yes.

That being said, serious, serious, here comes the serious answer. What is the value in acknowledging.

Here comes the boom?

The Old Testament isn't, doesn't just have value. It's a treasure trove. I love teaching and preaching in the Old Testament. I love it. In fact, if you want me to completely teach the crucifixion, I'm going to make more Old Testament references than I'm ever going to make New Testament references. And that is a fact. I've done it.

That's where all the prophecy is.

I actually taught a. I called it an Easter Advent series of getting ready for Easter, but I taught it predominantly out of the Old Testament. I kept going back and teaching Old Testament everything. And you see, the thing is, there's so much there. There is, there's so much just starting with the Ten Commandments. I think there's incredible that that doesn't go away now. I think I will say, I will say that when I teach the Ten Commandments. I also point out what Jesus said that in that, you know, by loving the love your Lord, your God, with all your heart and your mind and soul and strength, and loving your neighbor as yourself. If you're doing those things, you're doing the Ten Commandments. Okay?

So I mean, I was literally about to say that he's simplified. I was literally about to bring that up.

But if you look at the Ten Commandments, if you're looking at it through the lens of what Jesus said, you're like, oh, that makes perfect sense then. Because I wouldn't do any of those things if I was doing these things. Would you? No, you wouldn't. So the laws and the reasons, and yes, context matters, especially with some of the laws and especially with some of the things that had to be in place at the time. Absolutely. I love it. There's too much there that has tremendous teaching value and understandment value and all that stuff. So I would Never throw out the Old Testament. I think anyone who tries to do that is a fool. And I think anyone who tries to say that the God of the Old Testament, the God of New Testament is different is a fool.

Dispensationalism.

I think that the God has been the God has been the God. I think that we need to refocus and relearn all these things in a way that we can see how. I mean, it is. It's one story. It's one amazing story of his story, history, how everything came from creation to now and how it. And everything connects. And it's brilliant because it's written by how many authors, right? It's written by over 66 books.

40 different authors.

Over 40 different authors. Over 1500 books, over 1500 years that can do one congruent story. And the fact that if you actually. And I've seen the graphs, the people that have connected, where every single verse. And actually, you know what's funny is that we've done that and there's probably something that God's like, you missed one, you know, probably. Tell you what. And the funny thing is, is that my favorite. If you want to talk about stories that make me wonder, that will get me so caught up in, like, I just want to know, right? The story. And it's a New Testament story, but it gives me. It's an Old Testament reference. When Jesus is walking on the road to Emmaus with those two guys and he.

And it says, he explained, this is after the resurrection.

Yes. From Moses forward, everything it said about him, I'm like, that's a Bible study. I will sign up for today, tomorrow, yesterday. Like, I. Oh, my gosh. And because that means if you go from Moses forward, that's Genesis forward, I'm like, you'd explain every reference in the Old Testament. Where do I sign up for that class? I want to know. Because who better than the guy that wrote the book, right?

Like, oh, my gosh, he was there from the beginning. Why? Not exactly firsthand account.

It's amazing. So, yeah, the amount of. You can't disregard, disregarding wouldn't even. That would be stupid to not give enough power. I mean, it's powerful in itself. And like I said, it does a thorough job of teaching us exactly why we need Jesus. I mean, Romans gives you the kind of.

The Romans road. I was always taught it's the Romans road. Even in Bible college, we learned it was like Romans road. And I did an entire paper, I think it was like 10 pages on Romans chapter eight. And I had to exegete every single word, every single. Every single verse. And I was doing it as someone who was still discovering and working through her Jewish identity while trying to find the balance. So I was going in, and I was, like, deep diving into the Old Testament and Jewish tradition and Jewish cultures, and I was deep diving into what was happening in Rome at that time, what was happening in Greece at that time, what was the culture like? And I did 10 pages on just one chapter. Oh, man.

Yeah, I'm with you. But Romans does a great job of kind of summarizing it. You know, that's really what he does. But. Oh, my goodness.

Yeah, okay, that's a good answer. I'm happy with that answer now. But.

No, no, no, no. No buts. I just. As much as I'd love to continue talking about certain things. So when it comes to one of the. One of the things that's a hot topic nowadays, right, is people are wondering, do we stand with Israel? Are we for what's going on over there? And you should have, I guess, a special insight into that. Yes. So let's hear it. So when it comes to these issues, like I said, this is a hot button right now. From your perspective, this gives you a platform to talk about.

I'm going to come from a perspective that is separate from Messianic Judaism, because even within Messianic Judaism, everyone is different. The same way within Christianity, everyone is different. They're all going to have their own opinions. So this is going to strictly be my opinion, my heresy. Me, myself, your heresy. I always tell people my heresy. It's not heresy, but you know what I mean? It's like.

And none of this stuff was talked about beforehand. Just for the listeners out there, like, it's not like we've had this conversation.

I was prepared to talk about my life. What is this?

Oh, no.

I told you. I was like, you better start researching. They're gonna hit you with some stuff.

I already know what I was gonna say. This is left field.

Yeah, I'm gonna shake you up a little bit.

I'm okay. Hey, listen, I am a tree planted on the rock. I don't shake, baby.

Anyway, I just thought I'm gonna be

uprooted, but okay, so with regards to Israel. Okay, so first and foremost, I am not of the opinion that you stand with Israel just blindly, because that would make them like an idol. To use your own analogies within your culture. Okay, maybe it's not within your religion, but within your culture. You're saying we're gonna Stand with them regardless of what they do. Okay.

That would have been dangerous in the Old Testament too.

I think so too. But now here's the other thing. Here's the other thing. I do believe that they have the right to defend themselves. Right. Just like anybody else. You know, Saudi Arabia has the right to defend. Everybody has the right to defend themselves. Whether you agree with their religious beliefs or not, whether you believe with their cultural beliefs or not. If you attack me, I have the right to reciprocate. Fine. The problem I have is when the information comes out of, oh, there's the IDF is laughing as children are dying in front of them or they shoot somebody and then they stomp on their head and whatever, like these are stories that are coming out from Israel and all these things and they're saying, oh, look at, look at this soldier. You know, look at Al Jazeera is broadcasting stories about Jewish soldiers doing all these atrocities to the victims and to people like that. I find that abhorrent. I think that's horrible. Do I believe them to be true? Absolutely. Why? Not? Because I don't stand with Israel. But because the people within the IDF are human. You're going to have evil, you're going to have good. Not. Just because you have IDF badge does not mean that you are going to be flawless. Just because you have a police officer's badge does not mean you're going to protect everyone the same way you are supposed to. You are. What was that? You are, you are absolutely supposed to. That is your calling. You are supposed to defend everyone. You are supposed to be impartial. But your human nature, your sinful nature, your personality, your upbringing, your, your culture, whatever you want, your biases are going to come into play that gives your entire unit a bad name because these soldiers are doing these atrocities to their, to these victims, to these children, to, to the, the, even the peaceful, even the non peaceful, whoever, if they have people that they're killing and then they, they take joy in that, that's horrible. And I'm gonna say the same thing for the others. There are, you know, within Hamas and Hamas, by the way, I find abhorrent in every possible. I know personally many Muslims who will sit there and condemn Hamas because they said that's the reason we left. That's the reason they have family that now lives in Israel. They are Israeli Muslims, they are Israeli Arabs because they left their country to find freedom to escape persecution from Hamas and Al Qaeda and every terrorist organization that has come out of the Middle East. But I condemn the Condemnable within the idf. And I do not believe that any government, regardless of country, state, or anything, is above reproach within the United States government. Oh, my gosh. I mean, there is corruption. We have to admit that.

It's a requirement, I think, to be a politician.

Sure. And it's the same thing with the Israeli government. We have the right to criticize our government. And in fact, we as humans criticize other governments. I mean, Poland, for example. My husband is from Poland. Poland has a lot of policies that are very restrictive, that are very much, this is who we are, and if you don't like it, you can get out. And we as humans have the right to criticize that. We have the right to do that. So I don't see. See standing with Israel as a. Acceptance of absolutely everything that they do, because that blanket, you will suffocate. So I believe that you have the right to stand with Israel where they're correct and to condemn the people, specifically people that are not. That are not promoting. What's the purpose of defending yourself? Because you're defending yourself. The purpose is not supposed to be to kill willy nilly and to have all these atrocities happen. The purpose of it is to defend yourself. But you can't always defend yourself with. What's that wrestling move where you put him in a headlock? Whatever.

Headlock.

No sleeper hold. I don't know.

I don't know what it is. You can't always, offensively. No, defensively defend yourself. Sometimes you have to go on the offense to show them. Hey, I have my own, you know, way of defending myself too. I don't know. That's. That's my. That's my.

I think that's a really good answer.

I think that's fair.

I think that.

Oh, thanks.

Because I think that's true within Christianity. I think we need to do that more as far as, you know, condemning those who are doing things in the name of Jesus and our Crusades, bro.

I know.

Clearly not a Christianity.

History has given us lots of examples in the Catholic churches at all. But like, history's given us a lot of Protestant church.

There's plenty of Protestants there.

Don't judge an entire group of people based on what a few of them do.

Yeah, exactly. You got to look at it from the broader perspectives. Now that brings up another interesting topic. And since we have just a little time left.

Right.

A little bit of time.

Just a little bit of time.

We can go a little more.

So we'll touch on one last thing.

You have to have me back.

We'll see. Judaism, Judaism, Part two.

There's so much more messy Jews.

The chutzpah. The chutzpah strikes back.

Actually, that's a very offensive term to Messianic Jews because there are people within the Jewish community who will call us messy and they'll call Jesus Greasy Josh. And it's just there are so many.

That's not what I was meaning. No, I know.

I know. I get what you were saying. You didn't know. I'm just educating you. There are certain terms that have been applied to Messianic Jews that are incredibly offensive. So that happens to be one of them.

Okay, well, then let's.

Well, messy with an. It doesn't make you speak.

Into speaking, if you will. Just a moment. So, you know, you have. We'll touch just briefly.

Okay.

We don't have.

Okay.

Keep my answer short on. Okay, so look, when it comes to anti Semitism nowadays, right now, which I want to say on the forefront is stupid.

Agreed.

But, like, from your perspective, being someone who is of Jewish heritage, what does that do in your world and how would you respond to someone who is anti Semitic? Yes. Or you can tell. Is starting to take in some of the ideas.

There are so many. There are so many people out there, Christian, non Christian, that are anti Semitic, which is surprising to run into. But I have run into many Christians that are anti Semitic, and it's because they don't understand the reason why they keep certain laws or the reason that they keep traditions, because they have a. I'm gonna say it. They have a very nationalistic point of view for Christianity, and they. They have their own way of believing those things. And what I have done is. And unfortunately, I had to teach this to my son, and he recently had to use it is to don't ask, don't tell. Basically, if they don't ask you, you do not have to tell. And it's hard. It's a very hard balance because you want to stay part of this community so that you don't lose your heritage, you don't lose your traditions because you. If you don't use it, you lose it type of thing. But you also don't want to volunteer that you're Messianic because within that community, there is immediate rejection and it hurts. And the immediate rejection comes from years and hundreds and hundreds of years of persecution and being told that who you are is not good. And then you have organizations. And I am going to say, Jews for Jesus, cannot stand them. Absolutely. And I will die on that hill.

Why?

That's a long answer that. We have that.

For another.

You told me to keep it short. You told me to keep it short. So. But anyway, when those organizations are out there and they're actively baptizing new Jewish believers and telling them, you don't have to do this anymore, you now are free in Christ, you don't have to keep kosher, you don't have to keep Shabbos. You can worship on Sunday with us. And it's this. That's anti Semitic. I'm sorry. You cannot honor a people group's heritage and then tell them, okay, but now that you're a Christian, you don't have to do that anymore. I'm sorry. That is, in my opinion, the utmost disrespect. And for me, it's incredibly anti Semitic.

Is there a difference between you don't have to and you shouldn't? Yeah, because the way you said it is. They were saying, you don't have to. And earlier in the podcast you said that it's a choice.

It's always going to be a choice. Think about it. If I'm talking to someone who is newly converted, newly Christian, newly accepting Yeshua, and they are Jewish, okay? And I tell them, well, you don't have to follow Shabbat anymore. And they're like, well, but you know, I grew up that way. Oh, I know. But now look, see, because now everybody's worshiping on Sunday and we don't worship on Saturday anymore. So you don't have to. And through persuasion, and my brain's not braining, when you. Power of suggestion, power of suggestion, coercion, eventually you're going to make that person think, well, I don't have to, so I guess I shouldn't. They go into each other.

Okay, I want to push back briefly on that. Only in a bit. So he was pointing out. So if you're saying you don't have to, but you're not saying don't. Right? And here's a scenario where I think that would be beneficial and I think believer, I honestly think that the Lord would agree with me on this one. I do. Because there are some who trying to do certain practices, no matter how they approach Jesus, if it's. Jesus is like, look, if this is getting in your way, get rid of it and just come to me.

Exactly.

You know, I mean, so like, for those who say, look, if someone who's like, man, all. I'm not trying to make light of anything. All these, all these things that I have to do as a Jew and they're stressing me out. And somebody says, well, look, you know, Jesus is the main point here.

Right.

You can let go of that and focus on him.

Right.

That's not anti Semitic. That's going. And be like, we're still making Jesus number one.

Right.

You know, at that point, there's nothing wrong with that. I don't believe. I think if you are trying to say, don't do it anymore, then that sounds more anti Semitic to me.

To some degree, I can agree with you. I think that if you. If you make 613rules, go above the grace of the cross and salvation, then then, yes, you're. You're basically getting caught up in the same trap that the Pharisees were getting caught up in. In that you're getting caught up in the letter of the law and not the spirit. But to the same point, if you feel like, okay, I know that I have. I know that I am saved by grace, but I also want to maintain these traditions, then there's nothing wrong with keeping those traditions as long as they don't supersede Yeshua and grace.

Yeah. I mean, he's got to be the forefront.

Absolutely. I believe that you are saved by Yeshua by grace alone. Everything else is just a support system.

I agree. And the reason I laughed is because we. We've been having this conversation a lot lately where it's like, so are you saying that, you know, without faith, without works is dead means that I can. I can be saved and then just live however I want to, and it's the same thing. You were just. No, no. But yeah.

Yeah.

No is the answer, and that's what you were just saying. But it's like. It's that whole, like, it's that same conversation said in just a slightly different way. And we've been having a lot lately,

and it's like, yeah, well, I mean, it's a conversation that's happened. It's been happening since Paul. I mean, Paul wrote into it.

I just like hearing a different wording.

You know, the works. Right. That people were referring to are, you know, oh, well, I need to. I'm gonna stay in my bubble. 613 losses. That's my works. I cannot be saved by these laws. These laws bring me closer to holiness in the respect of, like, they're symbolic. So those symbols draw me closer to being holy in the respect of mindset, not in spirit, in mindset. Because they were designed. They were designed to change your mind, to always be focused on God. They do not save you, only the Cross can save, only Yeshua can save. Right? And side rabbit trail baptism. I would love to have you back on, on the show, have me back on the show and we can talk about baptism within salvation. Because I'm telling you, I have a whole perspective on the mikveh.

But anyway, yes, I think that's, I

think just Yeshua is salvation, period, point blank. Everything else is just a pillar to the house. The rest is just walls that hold up the roof. And that's it.

Because, I mean, I just want to interject real quick because she brought up baptism, but you know, I think, and I'm not going to talk about it, I'm just saying that, you know, again, so I'm speaking from my unique perspective of Christianity observing Judaism. And so with that, I would say that if anything, my Christianity, my Christian faith has actually deepened and had more understanding since being with her and following her messianic Judaism because it opened up scriptures to me that I've never, I mean, I saw and I understood, oh yeah, this is a part of the story. But it actually gave more deeper context of like, oh, that's what that was about. And so it's just like little things. And so that's, it was so enlightening because now, because in some of these biblical study books and everything, they still don't talk about the Jewish perspective of something. And it's just little things sometimes that just like blow your mind.

You know, it's funny because we've talked about this in church a lot, is that, you know, it's crazy that we live in the time where the information is the most available to us and yet we are living in the most biblically illiterate time ever and people are just walking around like idiots sometimes. Like, and I saw him. It sounds kind of rude, but like you have the ability to figure this out, like, especially. And some people are really happy with surface level stuff. We're not called to be surface level people.

Right.

We're meant to go deep into our faith. We're meant to. And so like, I appreciate that so much because like my, my, well, I'll call it my deep dive into the Old Testament gave me that same thing where I'm looking into the festivals when I'm looking into all of it just to get more depth. Like when we brought up earlier about walking through the blood sacrifices, like when I, when I saw that with a completely set, different set of eyes and it was like, oh my goodness, God is so wonderful. Look what he was doing right in front of everyone's eyes. It was. It was great.

Right?

Those are the kinds of things that unless you're willing to go and dive into the scriptures like that or find someone who's willing to help you see it.

Right? But like, but like, you know, for. Again, this is. This was actually from a teacher that came to our temple. He brought up the fact of. In the New Testament, like, he's. He joked around. He's like, well, do you know who the fastest apostle was? And so. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? He's like, well, it was John, because when he and Peter ran it, John got there first. But he said, but look, he said, John stopped at the door and then Peter ran by him. And then John entered and he said, why? He said, because John was a Levite. And so, because Levite, again, part of the Jewish law was you are not allowed to be by the dead. So once Peter ran in and said, there's no body, he went in also. In that same perspective, why do you think John's Gospel has some of the testimonies in Scripture? Because he was able to be in the temple with the Sanhedrin and all those different things. And so it just opened up my mind to the like, oh, yeah. It's like, holy cow. It's like it never. I mean, just a little thing like that treasure trove.

That's what I said.

Yeah. And so it's just like, it just opened up my mind and just all these little things that just. It's, you know, as a Christian, as a Western Christian, I should say, we just hear, hey, John ran to the temple, Peter ran by him. No big deal. So Christian. We're like, whatever.

He was catching his breath.

Exactly.

I mean, and that's actually the beauty of studying scripture, is that even I know. I'm finishing up.

I'm sorry. No, no, no.

But the beauty of studying scripture is that it doesn't matter how many times you've gone through it, if you're willing to continue to dive into it deep every time you go in, you'll find things constantly. There's scripture, like, I'm the one I'm doing for this weekend. I've been through it many times, but I dove deep into it. And then it was convicting to me again. It was heavy again. And it meant so much to me again. And I was like, oh, man, how many. How I've put this down before, not in a way of ignorance, but put this down and be like, okay, I got it. And then I come back and like, oh, man, this is so good. You know, and that's the amazing thing. That's our living scriptures right there.

I think that if I could promote something for a second here, I would tell you to learn more about context, especially with regards to the Old Testament and the laws. I would tell you to read scripture along with the Talmud and the Talmud, if you don't know, which I'm sure you do. But for the listeners who may not know, the Talmud is a book of rabbinical commentary regarding what was happening with regards to, like, the law and cultural practices at the time that the law was written. And it's more than just about the Torah. It's also about the. I keep wanting to say Pentateuch. It's more about the. It's also about the Tanakh. It's also about cultural observances, questions that were brought to the sages and they were asked, you know, Rabbi, what should we do when this happens? And this and that. And it's. It's good commentary. It's just like if you were to read Strong's Concordance and then you read a commentary by, you know, some other. Some other person, some preacher. It's reading commentary along the scripture helps. It doesn't have to change your opinion, but it maybe helps form more of a perspective when you're reading the Bible. It's helpful because it provides a perspective that maybe in your Western mind or wherever you're from, you may not see it, and again, you don't have to agree with it, but having that perspective helps you. If you don't agree with it, helps you to rebut. And if you do agree with it, it helps you to be able to support your argument.

Look, man, I'm totally for that. As long as you're not using the message version of the Bible, I'm good.

First off, stop picking on my boy Eugene Peterson. Okay?

Amen.

That is a. I tell you what I love.

No, no, no, I'm a.

No, no, I'm doing it.

No, no, no.

You brought it up.

Hey, so coming on.

It's a dynamic translation.

It's like a companion.

No. Okay, listen. It's very dynamic, but it's good. It's good for the ones who just want to start.

I agree. I think that's a great.

The Talmud has. The Talmud has different translations, too. The Talmud has different translations, too. And it's still helpful. As long as you're reading it.

You're looking to try to get it in the most simplified language. Is it worth the word no? Is it literal? No. But is it going to help?

It's not a translation. Let's be clear. It's not a translation.

All right?

It's a paraphrase.

And he's so stubborn sometimes.

I'm.

So this is where things like these arguments. I'm going to use the message Bible for you. The reason I would not use it as study, but I would use it as introduction is because context matters and semantics matters. It does matter. I'm sorry. Language within the Jewish, you read the Scriptures in the New Testament, you read the Aramaic and you read the Hebrew and you read the Greek. And then you go to the Old Testament, you read the Hebrew. Context matters and semantics matters. Because if you're using the word knowledge in Greek, it's right. It's meant to be. Knowledge is deep. It's a deep knowledge. It's not just a superficial. I know one plus one is two. It's, you know, I know why one plus one is two. I know the deeper meaning that is Gnosco. But if you're sitting there and you say, well, we knew God, okay, Like, hey, God, I know you. It completely different.

Completely agree.

It's a semantic.

It's like, hey, I've met this person. I know who that person is. Or no, I know them intimately. We share time together.

Yeah. That's why there's three different versions of love that is mentioned.

There were more than that, but I think.

I know there's more than three. But there's three that are mentioned specifically in 1 Corinthians 13. But anyway, I digress.

All right, so thank you for coming on and having some interesting.

It was definitely a fun interesting.

He didn't even get through all his questions. I think he got to two more.

What's great is these were my questions that I handed over to him and he just totally did all of that kinds of picking.

And I was like, I got some of my own and let's just go.

He, he, he. He's really good at that part, so.

Well, I would love to come back and, and do another deep dive on

some of the stuff. Messianic Judaism, Part 2, the Chutzpah Strikes Back.

Oh, my goodness.

The Phantom thinking.

Mel Brooks, History of the World, Part Two.

No, listen, it's exactly. It's. It's the. It's. It's Messianic Judaism, the Phantom Mench. And any of my Jews would know that one.

That's so bad.

No, not meshug. It's men. It's very good.

Oh, my goodness.

So saying all these words on here that none of us know.

Look it up. Google is very good. Men is a good person.

All right, so anyway, thank you for tuning in today. Don't forget that we have our big celebration coming up with free tickets to our live event. Right.

Yes.

Fun.

It's on Eventbrite. I've started actually adding it to our descriptions and stuff.

Yeah.

Make sure that you click on that.

I'll make sure. And put their correct spelling.

There's no H at the end of my name.

That was him.

That was AI doing it. And then I didn't look at it close enough. I'm sorry.

You can just put the S for the last name. It's too hard to spell out. I know.

No, it's not. I've got. I've got it on my phone.

Okay.

Yeah, but.

But yeah, so don't forget that's coming up. We want everybody to be there. It's going to be awesome. We're gonna have some giveaways. We got some surprises coming up, but it's gonna be something we've never done before. And why not be there for the first time it happens? Plus, as my favorite thing I like. You can go back later because we'll put it back up and then you'll be able to hear yourself maybe laugh or cry or raise your hand. I don't know what it'll be, but it'll be great. So do that. Don't forget about our Patreon. Okay. There's three levels of Patreon, and it just helps us continue to do things on the show. We recently were able to get new microphones which we are hoping will enhance our sound. And, you know, we've got plans for other things along the way. Of course, not everybody gets a new microphone. He got one of the gold microphones.

He got the cool one. Man, that's. I wish I had that one.

But yeah. Continue to, like, subscribe, Share. We want to continue to get this message out there. And of all things, if you love this episode, didn't love this episode, had something that inspired you or made you mad. Comment. We want to know. And if you have ideas of things that you would love to hear us talk about, we want to hear about that.

Like my scene. McChesney.

We love talking about. We love talking about the things that you bring to our attention. We've done some of those episodes lately, and they have been pretty big hit from a lot of people I've talked to.

Yeah. And we've got. We've got several others we haven't forgotten. The other Topics that you guys have sent in. We are lining stuff up to talk with people who are better versed in, you know, going about those topics.

So, yeah, it's going to be good. So stay tuned. But also get more people out there. You know who you're talking. You got somebody in mind?

We're actually up to 106 subscribers now.

That's wonderful.

That's just the. That's just the bedrock.

Well, I mean, like, build on three. Three or four months ago.

Oh, I know.

It was like, are we gonna make it to 100? Which was our goal.

Like we did, you know, and now a thousand. That's what we know. We gotta keep going.

No, you wanna hit that. 100,000 is what you want.

Oh, my goodness.

500 is the next actual goal.

Oh, yeah, 500 subscribers do that. That'll be good.

Yep. The only way to do that is to keep bringing controversial guests on, you know, like, you know, the ones that are willing to argue and fight about semantics.

I have him.

Context. Yeah, but it's better when it comes from a female's perspective.

Well.

Oh, I'm sorry. Was that too obvious?

It was very presumptuous, that's for sure.

I see the next hot topic. The message good or not, the answer's

not, but we won't go there. Won't go there right now. You guys can disagree. You guys can disagree, but you're wrong.

You have the right to be wrong.

You do. You all have the right to be wrong. These guys are. Well, yeah, these guys are photographers.

These guys.

The photographer.

These guys.

She comes along with the.

Now, we're from use guys.

I'm from near Chicago.

So you guys, I'll put all their information in the messages in the description below in the message. Not that message. I'll write the message.

It might be in there. Somewhere in there.

Are you joking? He's gonna plug.

Hey, you know what? I'm gonna say one more thing. I. For the longest time, I was labeling Brian as a Torah observant Christian. And then he comes on here, he's like, I'm a Christian. And I'm just like, keep out the Torah observing part.

I am a Torah observant Christian.

There we go.

He's also a recovering Catholic.

Every time I read the Torah, I'm also observing the Torah. I'm just putting that up in a bag.

There you go.

All right. So it has been fun. It's been crazy. It's been hectic. Hopefully you guys liked it. Comment, please. What you thought, what you want to hear, and God bless. Hey, thanks for joining us. Make sure to subscribe and give us a like on itunes and Spotify so that you will never miss a show. And while you're at it, check out our Facebook and Instagram pages and make sure you tell your friends about this show. You don't want them to miss out on the truth because we are all

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Thanks for joining us this week and God bless.