Are you a little angrier irritable or quick to lash out these days?

Anger is a challenging emotion.

And according to Dr.

Jud, it can become a habit.

What is fueling your anger and how can you break the habit loop of resentment?

What can we learn from behavioral neuroscience and ancient wisdom to

That's what I'm going to explore today with Dr.

Jud on Your Life in Process.

Welcome to our first episode of What's Up With Dr.

Jud.

I am so excited to bring Jud on as a frequent contributor.

I've had the opportunity to interview him a couple of times, and he was incredible

He has the skill of breaking complex concepts down like

And these conversations are going to be off the cuff.

They're going to be raw and hopefully super applied.

We'll talk about the concepts in terms of our personal lives.

And then also give you strategies to apply to yours.

So here's a little bio on Dr.

Jud if you don't already know him, he's the Director of Research and

and Social Sciences at The School of Public Health and Psychiatry at The

He's also Research Affiliate at MIT.

And before that he held research and teaching positions at Yale

He's a New York Times bestselling author of The Craving Mind and

As an addiction psychiatrist and internationally known

Jud has developed and tested novel mindfulness programs for habit

You'll want to check out his apps Eat Right Now, Unwinding

I use them a lot with my clients.

And they're like having Dr.

Jud in your pocket.

Dr.

Jud is also a really great human and super fun to talk to.

He's here to help us.

And I can't wait for you to hear this conversation about anger.

Stay tuned to the end, where I will give you some daily practices to try

can download a PDF of the home practice so that you can start applying these

As a therapist, sometimes I need to refer clients to a higher level of care.

And until now it's been difficult to find programs that are evidence-based

And that's why I'm so excited to be sponsored by Lightfully Behavioral Health.

Lightfully is a leader in primary mental health treatment, providing

They treat wide variety of diagnoses, including mood disorders, anxiety

health organizations that is built around process-based therapy, which is a

The company's seasoned, all female executive team brings over 70 years of

For more information, go visit lightlfully.com.

So.

Here we are.

You're a frequent contributor.

I kind of roped you into this, Dr.

Jud.

I wanted you to be my cohost

Well, think of me as your occasional cohost

cohost, uh,

that you're having a conversation with.

Yeah.

That I'm having a conversation with and I hope it is a conversation.

And I hope it's actually more of a chance for you to explore ideas.

Whatever's on your mind, whatever you're interested in and I'll, I'll go there.

I'm interested in what you're interested in.

And you said you wanted to talk about anger.

So that was a surprise.

I, I actually, it made me get out The Craving Mind.

And one of the things that actually, I actually had it, I had this

No kidding.

There it is.

So, this is clearly something that you've actually been interested in for a while.

You've been interested in personally for you.

And you said that you're also concerned about sort of systemically

Yes.

So the reason I suggested it as a topic was that I'm seeing a lot

It's like, so in sports, what is it, somebody made an unforced

I think that's also an important topic, but it just seems like there's

And so it just felt like it would be a good topic to talk talk about.

And not just to highlight it because I'm guessing everybody's seen it.

But also to deeply explore where it comes from and what we can do so

So if it's helpful to start, I can just talk about, you know, I wrote a little

and how I really had to see very, very deeply how unhelpful it was for me to

And I, you know, I can, I could give, you know, what is it the, uh, the

is actually not that scientifically sound, but it's a nice number that,

I could say I'm an expert in anger because I've certainly had racked up the hours.

And I think, and I start with that because I think having, you've got to know what

And I think so just examples.

For example, I was on a month-long silent meditation retreat,

And my mind kept going and going and going back to the situation I

And the anger was getting in the way of my concentration practice.

And it really helped me see a couple of things really clearly.

One was, I was on retreat.

I wasn't near this person.

So me getting angry was a huge waste of energy.

Where, you know, it's kind of like, you know, if you want to drive somewhere, you

You know, it doesn't get you very far.

And in fact it, it uses up all your fuel.

Well, that's basically what I was doing on retreat was that I wanted to go somewhere.

I wanted to develop concentration.

And so my mind was like, well, we're driving in neutral and guess what?

We're going to make sure you don't go anywhere.

And that's exactly what was happening.

So that maybe gives a little context in terms of one of the places

And I don't know if it'd be helpful maybe to color that or add to that.

Do you, how do you, you know, when I asked the question, anger, you know,

Anger shows up in a couple of different ways for me.

I mean, there's that resentment, the sort of chewing on the resentment going over

But, more often now I experience anger as flashes of outward anger.

So there's the inner anger, the resentment and the rumination and the storytelling.

But then there's also the outward expression of anger.

And I often tell my children that I was never an angry person until I had kids.

And so for me, anger is when I don't get enough sleep, when I haven't eaten enough.

And there's a lot of, I talk about this of the three, the three S's:

sleep deprived ,and when substances are involved, so not getting enough

And I have these moments of, of losing it and kind of

And that's the type of anger I don't really like the rumination stuff.

I feel like I have a better handle on now than I don't get caught in that as much.

I get more so the flashes of emotion regulation, really.

And those, it just, it feels different to me.

And I think people are, what I hear in my practice is people

And also people are a little more entrenched in the divisive rumination

Yes.

Yeah.

And so I think you're highlighting some of the things that I see as well in terms

So I don't know if it would be helpful then, you know, I'd be curious to

Like where does that fire come from?

I can, I can start, but it'd be, you know, maybe we could start there.

And I think of this from a, you know, putting on my science hat, you know.

I want to understand a mechanism before I can actually develop a

It's kind of like a cancer treatment where in the old days they used to have these

body and you'd like, you'd try to kill uh, all the cancer cells before you kill

And so they had tremendous side effects.

Um, the, the, you know, the cure rates were much lower than they are today,

And my friend who's an oncologist does this with all his patients where you can

then target those pathways so they can get much better remission and, and re um, cure

So I think behaviorally, we can do, we can approach life in the same way.

And mechanistically, I think of, you know, what are the causes?

What are the, what are the what, what fuels anger?

And I think two places that I've seen pretty clearly, and in my own

One is, when we don't get what we want.

You know, so let's say somebody cuts in front of us at the grocery store.

We didn't, you know, um, well, that's actually getting, getting something

So somebody cuts in front of us at the grocery store.

We get something that we didn't want.

We didn't want somebody to cut in front of us, or somebody cuts us off in, in traffic

We don't want that.

And we can get anger, road, rage type, things like that.

Not getting what we want can also make us angry.

And I think that also comes in this spectrum of, you know, we can get,

Get somebody to come along with us.

You know, it's like, hey, um, you know, I want you to, let's say we're

view, or we have a strong sense that we want them to believe what we have

You know, let's say, um, one of the conversations that I've seen too much,

One is, you know, I, I really think vaccines are helpful.

And as a public health servant, that's the side that I tend to come on to.

And then there are others that are like, hey, you know, I don't know

So I'm just going to wait this one out, you know, and in whatever.

So those two sides, regardless of where somebody is on either

It doesn't even matter when it comes to anger.

If one side says, hey, I want you to believe me.

And the other side is not buying it.

Then they didn't get something that they wanted.

And so it can start with irritation, then frustration.

And it kind of it's like the thermometer gets higher and higher as that heat heats

And that can be fed by the other side doing the same thing saying,

So those two flavors not getting what we want and getting something that we didn't

What's your sense?

I think I would add onto that, that one of the ways that I see anger playing

Again, it's about, I think it's a lot of it also has to do with how you express it.

Is protecting something that you value or something that you care about,

But maybe moves us from toddlers, having a tantrum.

I didn't get what I want, into actually, this is something I really care about.

And because I care so much about it, it makes me angry.

And then I end up acting in a way that's actually out of alignment

And that doesn't feel good.

And for me, when I'm working with folks, I look at, I also look at

He's a good family friend.

He was the, um, a lay minister for Thich Nhat Hanh.

And very close with Thay, traveled with him all over the world, doing

And he actually, his house was firebombed.

He's a black man in an interracial relationship.

And in the nineties, his house was firebombed.

And so I talked to him about anger.

I mean, if anyone has a right to be angry, right.

He talked about anger as being energy.

And then how did he manage that energy when that happened?

And what he did with it was he actually went to Plum Village.

He spent a lot of time with Thich Nhat Hanh sitting in silence.

He went into nature and then he dedicated much of his life to social

So that's a way of taking the energy and transforming it, but

And so that's another aspect of the getting what I want and

And, um, something being taken from me, I guess.

Yeah.

And I think you're highlighting some nuance into something I'd love to

So my wife is a, is a Bible scholar and, you know, it's this well known

Um, and you know, often interpreted as, as righteous anger, you know.

And often, uh, I think as you're highlighting that, that can be self

And the big question in this really fun and interesting ongoing

And as you're pointing out this piece with your, you know, the conversation

you know, uh, that, that is born out of these conditions, you know, somebody's

And is, does righteous or self-righteous anger?

Does it just feed more anger or does it actually, uh, help?

Is that the best way to, to help heal?

And it reminds me of this, the saying from the, um, this is from

Are you ready for this?

With its honeyed tip and poisoned root.

Honeyed tip and poisoned root.

Because it can, it can feel, so it makes us feel so alive and powerful.

Like I am doing something and there's that, that honey tip,

But then they also talk about the poisoned root where it just, it

And so that's one thing that, that it would be really fun to explore, you

And I, you know, from, uh, there are many ways I think we could, we

And so we could look at that from even a how behaviors are

Um, but there are probably other many other ways that

So what, what do you think would be the best place to start?

Let's look at how it fuels itself.

And of course, because we have you here as Mr.

Neuroscientist, not just Mr.

Buddhist.

I think that there's very much a, um, you know, our brains evolved to respond to

There's gotta be some kind of, um, activation in the brain that makes

And evolutionarily, probably beneficial for us to enjoy anger.

To we need to stay in the fight to win the fight.

But then now in the modern world, it's not so helpful to, you know,

But yeah, let's talk about that cycle and I'm, and I'm imagining that you

Yeah.

So looking at some of the, think of it as the behavioral neuroscience,

always, you know, it's like, oh, there's this blob in the brain that lights up

Well, it's really, oh, there's this blob that lights up and we can make inferences

So I think what I, the science that I've seen that I've been most convinced by has

Like what's the adaptive advantage of anger?

And there been some pretty convincing studies suggesting that it, it helps

know, when there's a social status thing where they need to basically

And so anger has been shown to help people gather resources in, you know,

We can think about this in our own lives.

You know, if we're, let's say that I'm on a call with customer service for, you

And then suddenly I just explode in anger, you know, uh.

Sometimes that helps or at least it's correlated.

Oh, my gosh, I did, I did a corporate training for a customer service, uh, team,

I can't.

I can only imagine.

How it's never been worse to be in a customer service.

And I was coaching them on skills, like how to validate your customer and, you

But yes, we take it out on our customer service folks and maybe sometimes it

Yes.

So just using that, we can just use that example.

I don't know about you, but when I boil over into anger, it just,

And the thing is, I don't know that it was actually the anger that helped, or

Because I didn't do the parallel experiment and, and, you

You know, really try to understand, you know, with it and work with the

Where it's like, okay, if I'm not understanding something,

If you're not understanding something, you know, let's make sure that we're

together collaboratively because it feels much better to work with

And I think that, so that even kind of highlights how these

So any habits formed a trigger, a behavior and a result.

And so if we think of the customer service piece.

So, um, you know, I'm trying to get the, you know, something replaced that

So there there's the trigger and the, or the triggers that, you know,

And so the behavior is that I get angry and then the result is, you know, they, it

Now that can set up a loop that says, oh, next time you don't get what you want.

You know, get angry.

And so that can happen.

It can groove that habit to the point where it's like, suddenly we're

that the poor grocery clerk at the grocery store, because the line is

Uh, or the, you know, the person that happened to drift into our

And because they didn't see us and we just, you know, like, why what, you,

We get angry at them.

So that's how that can get perpetuated.

And our brains can make these associations, oh, anger is

You know, that's, that's what I have to do.

That's the behavior that helps me get things done.

The problem here is that there isn't a causal connection

Cause we haven't, you know, we haven't established that.

That was it.

And let's say that there even is a causal connection for you

Oh, you know, somebody gets angry, then some, you know, then they,

We haven't looked to see is one what's the, what are

So it's not just, okay, I got my, whatever, my widget replaced

What are the emotional costs like you're pointing out on the customer

You know, we're seeing all sorts of societal costs of anger.

So we can, we know as a society, that's not the way to heal

It's only driving divisions to be deeper.

So we, we know that it's not helpful.

And if you take a neuroscience perspective, the only way to change a

And also find, you know, we've talked about this before, find

You know, what's more rewarding than getting angry.

So I'll pause there.

Does that make sense?

And then we can dive into those specific pieces.

Yes, it makes a lot of sense.

And just to add on part of the learning of that habit loop, uh, you learned

And then what are, for me, I'm always thinking about this as a parent, those,

for, you know, yesterday we were making cookies and they spilled the vanilla

I'm teaching that to them.

And so that's part of that cost, right?

The, the cost of, of how we are passing on this contagion to one another, when

Yeah.

Yeah.

I think that's an important piece because you know, whether it's

we're modeling behavior that people are, that people are going to pick

And that's, you know, we know through, we've seen a lot about contagion, you

So here, you know, I can imagine your child looks you in the eye, and then they

Right.

And so it comes out of those conditions and it's really different just to be able

You know, how can we work with anger?

So I, in the ideal situation, you know, we stop, let's say that the kid, um,

And we remind ourselves that we're human and they're human.

Remind ourselves of all the times that we've spilled things accidentally.

And even just doing that.

Let me ask you, what does that feel like when you, when you

Uh,

Well, gosh, there's the, there's the pro show pro social shame right there.

Oh my gosh, the mother.

But you know, I think for me, it's going back to values, what am I trying

It's, you know, sort of the holidays, all those things.

And when I'm losing it about vanilla on the floor, I'm missing out on that.

And I'm not, as you talked about, anger is such a tunnel vision

And I become inflexible in my So that's what it was like for me.

Yeah.

And, and so I would just add, you know, putting my, imagining

It's, you know, it's like, oh, oh, they spilled the vanilla.

And it's like, my heart goes out to them.

Cause I'm sure they didn't, you know, it's not something that they wanted to do.

Um, it was an accident.

And so when I think of all the times, you know, basically of being

or anybody else's humanity, and I see something happened, that's like

They didn't plan.

You know, it was just, it was an accident it's like, oh my heart leaps, you know?

And.

But,, but it's, it's easier to do that with a kid with an eight year

Like that you actually feel like there's something that's unfair.

Um, that's being done wrong and it has bigger stakes than

So let's, let's take that to the big stakes one.

Let's say, um, racism.

Okay?

Uh, let's say there's somebody that's overtly being racist and I

I can't, you know, it's like the anger could bubble up.

It's like, how could this person be so mean?

And then I, and then I try to feel into, you know, okay.

What were the conditions that led to this person being racist?

You know, and, you know, societal conditioning, family conditioning,

It can be somebody that's extremely rich and they have a very, they're raised in a

And that's just what they've been born with.

And then I can ask, well, how did their parents become racist and, you know, try

That this person is racist.

Whose fault is it?

You know, there's no, you can't, you can't place.

The point your finger to any one particular condition that led to

They did, they did it.

And so there's something just speak personally.

That's something I strongly feel is just really, you know, racism.

I would love if somebody could flip a switch and end racism right

So, you know, here's a, cause I think that many of us feel very strongly about.

And so I could get angry at them.

And then I can look at those conditions and saying, well, what am I putting out in

Does that solve any of the problems?

No, me getting angry.

If I got angry at them.

Probably just entranced them.

Maybe even make them feel self-righteous.

So they get angry again.

And not to say that I know how to end racism, but I'm just using this,

say, okay, getting angry at them may not be the best way to use that

What's, what's the way to go?

How can I, how can I help?

And here.

So going back to the example, you know, sure.

Feeling into a child's mistake of spilling vanilla and empathizing, or having

When I look at all the conditions that led to this person doing a racist act?

How would you, what do you think?

How, how do you see those as being different?

Well, I actually think they're quite similar as you're, as you're pointing to.

And in preparation of this with the, for this conversation with you, I was like

Okay.

What's the research out there?

And I actually came across this really interesting study by uh, group, it was

I can't remember which, but they were talking about, they did one of those

And they were comparing folks that had done had 40,000 hours plus of meditation

And the folks that had 40,000 hours plus of meditation practice, not only did

things were unfairly distributed, they'd redistribute them more, fairly than the

They also didn't have as much anger.

Hm.

So they were able to do that sort of pro-social like sort of justice work,

Hm.

but do it without anger being what was driving it.

I think that's what you're kind of alluding to here.

It's like, not about passivity, but it's actually about still taking action,

Yes.

of anger or blame or self-righteousness.

Yeah.

A hundred percent.

So here, if we can see the injustice really, really clearly, we could get

Right.

When we see injustice, we are moved to help.

That's what compassion is all about.

In the face of suffering, especially if we're not taking it

a hundred percent to helping and end whatever the, the suffering

So that energy gets, let's say, think of it as renewable energy

You know, think of anger as burning that fossil fuel.

It just, it just, you know, makes the environment toxic.

Whereas, you know, whatever solar, wind, whatever, it helps

You know, it's like, well, sun will burn out eventually, but not in our lifetimes.

So, you know, that type of thing.

So how do we do that?

Let's, let's like concretize this, because that sounds like high-level goal.

That makes a lot of sense.

But then actually, what does that look like in terms of, um,

Yeah.

So this follows and I, when I've done this clinically working, I've

And so one way to look at this is by, you know, we have this three-step process of

That's the first step.

The second step is helping them see how unhelpful they are.

And then the third step is finding that bigger, better offer.

So if we, if we concretize this, you know, mapping out in anger, habit loop,

The vanilla is just use that as an example, or we

My poor son.

I'll give you another one.

I'll give you another one.

I have plenty, plenty of my Rolodex of experiences that make me angry at my kids.

Okay.

So it's before bed and no, one's got their pajamas on and kids are throwing

So mom, mom's exhausted in his bedtime.

There's the, uh, and the pajamas aren't on.

There's the trigger that the behavior, the old behavior ancient, because

Ancient.

Never.

time ago, um, is that she gets irritated or angry or raises her voice.

And then the result is the kids finally get in bed

And mom feels guilty.

and mom's feels guilty.

Mom gets in bed feeling guilty.

Yeah, so it's good that you, so we have to see all the results of everything and that

You know, and I simplify this to have our, let's ask ourselves,

Right.

So you can ask, what am I getting from this?

Right.

They got in bed, I feel guilty.

Maybe I have trouble sleeping.

And then I'm more sleep deprived then I'm more tired tomorrow.

And then, oh, they still have to put their pajamas on.

Yeah.

So seeing that very clearly can help us become disenchanted

It's not that it's going to make it magically disappear, but it just can

So my own, you know, for my own life, when I can see very clearly that the anger

So if I get angry at the customer service rep, oh God, it's not

Um, if I get, you know, if I get angry, you know, any of,

And then the third step is to find that bigger, better offer where okay.

The, you know, the customer service rep.

The last time I got angry, um, or here's a real world example that just happened

And, you know, I got on the phone and was hung up on and transferred like seven.

Literally I'm not making this up.

Like I was hung up on at least twice.

Hopefully accidentally, uh, because I was on hold so long, I, and

the wrong person, eventually getting to the, where they said, oh, you

You have to send us a fax,

Oh, gosh.

Yes.

a fax

Who has that machine?

So, and I was like, oh, this system is clearly set up to cut costs because the

So I was angry.

I was like, I think I ended by saying, how do you sleep at night?

This person is not the CEO.

The CEO is the one making more money than this person.

And it's, they didn't set the rules.

They just are hired to do this job.

And, and, um, you know, I, that's my final word.

How do you sleep at night?

Hang up on them.

You know?

Cause I was so angry at the system and so I.

He felt terrible.

It's like, it's not this person's fault, blah, blah, blah.

And I can become disenchanted.

So next time when I have a patient that's denied their medication,

And the other thing I can do is remember all the times when I've collaborated with

So I could figure out very quickly, for example, like,

Whatever that thing is, or, you know, like, are, are you the person that

I don't waste their time.

I don't waste my time.

I don't get angry.

And I also can notice what it feels like to connect with somebody it's

A hundred.

Every single time.

It feels better to connect with somebody than to, um, to

So that's the three steps.

Yeah.

Yeah, it feels really good to connect with someone in a place

Because it actually takes the, the dreaded insurance phone call or the

on the phone with into a different, like, it just has a, more of a

And it's it benefits, benefits everybody.

So breaking it down into that habit.

Knowing your triggers, knowing sort of your, your tendency towards anger,

consequences when, when they weren't, you know, what the consequences

Uh, and I would add to that, you know, working behaviorally with

And that's where mindfulness comes in in terms of noticing when you're going

So before you're red,

and melting.

Yeah, with that melting, hard to turn it around.

I mean, I think it is harder to turn around anger when it's in full force

Emotion Action, where sometimes it is very helpful to just do the opposite

So if anger is telling you to lash out gently, avoid anger is telling

If anger is making you speed up, slow your breath down, and that can

Yeah, very pragmatic.

I like that.

So just bringing this back to that quote from the Pali Canon that I mentioned at

So one, you know, for that first step, if we have to, if we're, if we don't

mapped out, these habit loops around anger, we don't even know that that anger

We just, we're just acting automatically.

We're not even ourselves.

We don't have control.

The second step, I think is beautifully portrayed in that simple

It can feel rewarding at first yet when we really look at it, we can

you're guilty, you know, that type of thing, but also that come as a

So it perpetuates habits around anger.

You know, doesn't, doesn't help spread connection and joy in

And then the third step is, you know, if it's anger has a honey tip And

And this is where compassionate action comes in, you know, and this is why

You know, okay.

Conditioning, what's leading to this, you know, if somebody is angry at me, what's

So I don't just lash back out at them.

If I'm angry.

Can I remember, um, you know, the conditioning that leads to that, and that

It can help me bring compassion to others so that I'm not perpetuating cycles of

So, you know, just the honeyed tip and poisoned root.

You know, can we even just take a moment to pause and ask ourselves,

Can I map it out?

What am I getting from this?

And is there a, is there a better way to move forward?

Great.

Okay.

We're going to close the segment because I think this is helpful

Jud.

Because he is not my co-host, but my frequent contributor.

You're going to

At least for now.

I hope so.

Um, but whatever you want him to talk about, let us know.

And, We're going to be talking about distraction, I think

And for those of you that have questions for Dr.

Jud send them in to podcast@yourlifeandprocess.com

Thank you.

Okay.

So you've got to love Dr.

Jud and I really appreciate him taking the time from his busy schedule to

There's so much in this episode, and I want to boil it down to a few

As Dr.

Jud and I discussed anger is energy, and it's up to us to use our compassionate

So the first thing I want you to try this week is to become a mind and body watcher.

Pay attention to your body's alarm system.

Notice when you're moving from green to yellow, to orange, to red.

What factors are making you more vulnerable to getting into that red

They're going to, they're going to make you more vulnerable.

And then second map out your habit loop with anger.

What triggers you?

How do you tend to express your anger?

What does it look like behaviorally and what are its consequences?

As Dr.

Jud mentioned, it's important to focus on negative and positive consequences.

And then finally, what are the values that are driving your anger?

What's really underneath it for you?

What do you care about that you fear is going to be taken away

And how can you act on those values directly?

Dr.

Jud calls this the bigger better offer, because the consequences of

They keep growing over time and you'll never habituate to that positive

So try these three steps out.

Let me know how it works for you.

Remember, you can download these tips from the episode page on

also let me know by emailing me at podcast@yourlifeinprocess.com or

I can't wait to hear.

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of Your Life in Process.

When you enter your life in process, when you become psychologically

If you like this episode or think it would be helpful to somebody, please leave

for me by phone at (805) 457-2776 or by email at podcast@yourlifeinprocess.com

And it's not meant to be a substitute for mental health treatment.