Hello and welcome back to the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappily, I'm your host, Nathan Dunleavy, and today, wow, this is a bit of a pinch me moment. I'm joined by someone who has shaped modern dog training across the world, the incredible. Victoria Stilwell, you'll know her from her TV work, including It's Me Or The Dog, and most recently, The Dog Academy on Channel four. She's an internationally respected trainer, educator, author, and the founder of the Victoria Stilwell Academy. In today's conversation, we are digging into something truly game changing for pet parents. Living with reactivity. Victoria's reactivity zones approach a modern force free framework that goes beyond traditional. Desensitization counter conditioning and focuses on safety, trust, choice, and real life living. If you share your life with a reactive dog or love, someone who does this episode is full of real hopeful guidance that meets both dogs and guardians where they are. So grab a cup of tea, settle in, and let's get started. Victoria Stilwell, welcome to the Yappy Hour. How are you doing?

I am good and I'm so pleased to be here.

I'm so excited to chat with you and I'm so pleased you're, you've come on. So thank you for your time. Victoria, before we get into the deep stuff, how are you arriving today? What's life been like for you at the moment?

Busy as usual. Yes. I mean, I'm traveling a lot and just working hard. It's a lot of developing courses, writing academy work not necessarily so much field work as I call it right now, which is always what it's like over Christmas and in the wintertime and it's always by, by the end of February. I'm like, I just need to get out there. So, you know, it's, it's good. It just, it's busy.

I am pleased to hear that, and I'm gonna be meeting you again at the end of March. You're coming back to the uk. You are in the States at the moment, are you?

Yes.

Yeah.

Southern United States

Yeah,

have done for many years. In fact, I came back to England to film It's me or the dog.

yeah

and I really started my training life in London and then Manhattan.

yeah.

baptism of fire that was, yeah, so I come back and forth, but I'm excited. It's the emotional wellbeing in Animals Conference run by Andrew Hale, who

Yeah.

adore and you are gonna be there and I'm so glad. I'm so excited.

I'm so excited as well. Got to meet you at ABK last summer, so get to see you again and you've come on the podcast. So we're gonna have such a great chat today. Victoria, you've had an incredible career, books, tv, global teaching. We touched on it just for the show just then, but did you ever imagine dog training with take you to where you are now?

No, never, ever. I mean, was content to be a dog trainer in Manhattan. I had a good business there. Dog trainers of New York, it was called. then when I moved out to New Jersey, we had dog trainers of New Jersey and dog trainers of New York. So it was, and we did, we did private one-to-ones. So there were no group classes. And it was myself and my business partner. And really after a while, we didn't have to advertise. And by the, when I say advertising, this is before social media. Right. media advertising, this means boots on the ground going and putting up your flyers at pet shops and veterinary surgeries. And that's, that's what we had to do. But word of mouth spread very quickly. So after a while we didn't have to advertise because we had so much work.

Amazing. Excuse me. That's absolutely amazing. Victoria, you've influenced so many pet parents across the world. What still excites you about the work that you do?

But I don't think our work is ever done because we're still learning so much more about dogs. And as you know, behavioural science and cognitive science evolves. We learn more. That's what excites me and. fact that there's, you know, every day the reason why we are so busy, there are new people and new dogs and people that need help, either helping to raise their dogs or helping if there's, or, or needing us if there is an issue. So even though I don't do private training anymore, I will do the odd occasional one. And I also consult with shelters as well to help them there. yeah, it's it, it always, I don't know, learning about dogs, continuing working with dogs, seeing when things just, know, you go and you do a session and you come out and you go, oh my gosh, I just, that dog just learn something. That person just learn something. They're better off because of what we just did. That is why this job is so amazing. 'cause it's never the same. It can be challenging. So it keeps you on your toes.

It does.

And it can be really emotionally draining, but it's also really rewarding

Mm. Brilliant. Thank you so much. So we're gonna be moving on to our first topic of this evening, and that's what do guardians get wrong about reactivity? So when you think about the average guardian living with a reactive dog in inverted, what do you feel is the biggest misconception or misunderstanding that they start with?

blaming the dog or thinking that the dog's being nasty or dominant or controlling. And I understand why I'm not blaming them. I understand why, because reactivity can be scary, overwhelming, embarrassing. so I understand why people think that about their dogs, but

Mm.

it's putting blame on the dogs.

Yeah.

biggest mistake.

Yeah. It must be, like you say, living with, there's a, I hate that word, reactivity because there's so many reasons why a dog could be reactive, nervous, anxious, you know, so it's hard when you, you all get banded in that same bracket. Isn't that.

Yeah, it really is. So that's why that label from the dog, we, we still use that verbiage though. You're not gonna stop guardians. We call guard owners, guardians. You're not gonna stop guardians from using it. And you're also not gonna stop trainers from using it. 'cause it's a, actually a really good word to describe what we're seeing.

Yeah, that's it. And it's the word that most guardians are more familiar with as well.

Yeah, yeah,

Brilliant.

it's easier than saying, I am seeing a dog that is showing reactive behaviour. That's why you just say, oh yeah. In my case, it's a reactive dog. Easy. Done.

Yeah. Why do you think reactivity carries so much shame for the dog guardians?

It's a very active, of the time, very loud behaviour. And I think that there's a stigma on that. So people will at people that are having issues with their dogs, walking their dogs down the road. And I know a lot of people that have dogs that are displaying reactive behaviour. Get shouted at a lot, you know, keep your dog under control. the poor person is desperately trying to do that the dog is going full cujo at the end of their leash. it's, it's really difficult. And so are struggling and I think if there was less judgment and more understanding of like, Hey, I see you're going through something really difficult. I, I'm not gonna pass judgment. I'm gonna walk on by really quickly, or I'm going to go in the other direction, or to help people that do have dogs that are showing this behaviour, we'd all be much better off. But there is a stigma to it. 'cause who wants to be out of control with their dog? Especially if it's a large dog. If it's a small dog, other people laugh. Oh, look at that shit. Wow, what isn't that funny?

I.

If it's a large dog, right? If it's a large dog, people are like, oh, huh, you can't control your dog. Why do you have a dog? Keep your dog under control. That's why it's embarrassing.

Yeah. And the, the bigger dogs, they, they like the smaller dogs. It it, like you said, it's laughter upon, but it needs to be taken seriously. If like a, if a dog like bites, it's just the same as the All dog bites count, don't they?

Yes. And if, if you've got a any dog that's frustrated or agitated, nervous or fearful or overwhelmed, and you're laughing at that, I mean, well, the behaviour might look quite comical in a little chihuahua that's taking on a person or a massive dog. Oh, yeah. You know, and as a chihuahua guardian of my beautiful girl who recently passed away,

Oh, yeah.

I understand that. Oh, they're so cute. And look at that.

Yeah.

it's really upsetting. you know what that dog's going through or at least you have an idea of what that dog's going through and that's no laughing matter.

I often say that my, I shouldn't say, but my chihuahuas think they're rottweilers, but they're just so, I love them and I'm a Chihuahua dad and a toed dad now, but like, they've just got so much character and bravado and zest and, and they just get mis they get misinterpreted and like people Yeah. They always get a bad rep.

always, always, and look, I mean, if you're that small, that's quite, that's terrifying. The world is very big. And so sometimes you've gotta say, Hey, I'm here. You gotta shout a bit to

Yeah.

here, or I'm uncomfortable, or I don't feel great and you need to be heard so. I mean, I do, but I, I agree. I think chihuahuas are very emotional dogs.

Hi dust.

large.

They do listen, right. Victoria, we're gonna be moving on to our next section, which is introducing the reactivity zones approach, RZA in bracket. So we're gonna be explaining it all and what it's all about. So this is exciting. So for those hearing about the reactivity zones approach for the first time, could you explain what it actually is in simple everyday language, please.

Oh my gosh. I do, you know, when you send me this question, I'm like, how do I explain it in a c How do, how am I succinct about it? Okay. It is an approach that sends us the dog in comfort that does not rely on setups or exposure finds where the jaw dog is joyful. Builds upon it. It's an approach where we work with the dog regardless of what is happening in the world around us. And it is designed for the real world because we know that the real world is complicated. We can't always do setups. We are going to be encountering difficult situations. Now remember, my training journey starts in London and then it continues in Manhattan. are two really overwhelming environments, and it was from there that even though I'd a lot of DSEC for many, many years, you can see it on my show and loved DSCC, I, there was more needed and that's why this has kind of been simmering for a long time and now being able to it out. That, that's been a labor of love for me. But yes, that's it in a nutshell. I dunno if it describes it very well, but it's, that's it.

No, I love it. And just for our listeners or viewers watching DS, C'S desensitization and counter condition, isn't it?

yes.

Yeah, no, no, it's all good. So you talk about free zones, there's the comfort zone, the tolerance zone, and the discomfort zone. Can you walk us through each one and what that looks like in real life?

Yes. So three really easy words, trainers, especially trainers that have received a lot of education. They know what they're talking about when they're talking about desensitization and counting conditioning and what the dog's going through. It's really hard though clients to get it. So when you distill it down. Into three zones of this is the dog's comfort zone. This is where your dog is joyful, where they can do what they want to do and feel very comfortable doing it. This is where the dog has more agency, more choice. You are less of a factor the dog has more choice and freedom to do what they're really good at doing. the comfort zone. And

Yeah.

can be with you as well, but it's where we can give dogs more freedom or agency, more choice, mobility and to learn and where we can teach them some really cool skills. The tolerance zone is where your dog is, where many of our dogs are, and in fact, where a lot of desensitization and counter conditioning happens front, even at a distance of the trigger. So tolerance looks like where dog is not. Fully reacting, but they're a little uncomfortable and you can see the behaviour. They might be a bit hypervigilant. They, they know that the trigger's there, but they might be scanning and they're not. They might take food and they might listen to cues, do what you ask them, but they're not entirely comfortable. They're tolerating it. The discomfort zone is when they are in discomfort and a lot of that behaviour is very active. It's a lot of barking and lunging and, but the discomfort doesn't necessarily mean going full out active behaviour, but it's where dogs target on the trigger, they can't think of anything else. They're not looking around at anything else. They've just focused on the trigger. So it's very clear for clients to see where their dogs are and part of the activity zones approach. Is teaching dogs or clients to recognize their own dog's, unique body language and body language. Universal body language of course is important to understand, but we really focus on the nuances of each particular dog. So, and I, I'll let you ask more questions 'cause I'll, I will just riff, I'm just gonna go off on it. But those are the three zones. And actually the reason why we chose those words because I think it really describes the dog feels in each zone. But it's also really, really easy for guardians to understand, oh,

Yeah.

uncom, is in discomfort. I need to make a change. My dog is intolerance. I need to make a change. And that's the beauty of it, is its simplicity.

Yeah, I love that. So what makes this framework different to the traditional desensitization and counter conditioning?

Okay, DSCC very much. It's all to do with exposure, whatever protocol you are using, and there are lots of good protocols out there. It, they all rely on the trigger, even the trigger at the dis at a distance. So that could be another dog, it could be a person, and that dog or that person is at a distance where our dog, our dog that has the reactive behaviour our dog is unquote comfortable, IE not reacting. And the whole idea, obviously is to get that dog closer and closer to the trigger. Noting its comfort, hoping that it doesn't react. But the reason why DSCC, and as I said, I've done this a lot. I've done D-S-C-C-A lot, but I always felt it wasn't robust It's hard for guardians to continue with some of these protocols. And so again, simplicity is needed. And this is where I talk about the tolerance zone because in fact, a lot of these protocols are working on dogs in tolerance. So the dogs aren't going full blown, barking and lunging. But that doesn't mean to say that they're comfortable yet. We're working them in intolerance. And we get closer and they don't show a reaction, guess what We call it a success. And then what happens? We make it harder because we get closer. And I began to think that that's not very fair on our dogs and that we are calling things to su a success when actually all our dogs really wanna do is go the other way. Yet we're using food or toys or praise and causing what I call cheese feelings. So one, one of the things that we say a azae is that, you know, no one wants a picnic in a war zone. So if you've got a dog there that is and yet you are piling it with chicken because you're trying to build up a positive association, what you're really doing is just layering that, that layering. Association on top of the negative association. And is that new association robust enough to counter the negative association or is it merely covering it? can test this by not using food

Mm-hmm.

that same situation where you see a success, try it without using food. Is the dog truly comfortable and going? Got it. I see. I'm much more comfortable. Or the dog going? Yeah, no, I'm gonna, I'm gonna have to tell that other dog I'm gonna have to shout to get that other dog to go away. So

Yeah.

DSCC can be long and laborious for guardians to learn and do, and they're complex protocols, it's not just because of observation and what I've seen, it's also rooted in science. And I dunno whether you want me to continue with that before you ask another question. Okay.

Please do.

So there are studies that have been done in people, right? So D-D-S-E-C, really, if we look at cognitive behavioural therapy and since the fifties, sixties, that's kind of been the norm for people that have anxiety or trauma. And extensive studies have been done really comprehensive, very good studies that are now showing that actually this this therapy for people that have PTSD, for example, might not be as robust as they first thought because in this study they took. People that have PTSD and some, they used the kind of classic desensitization counting conditioning for people and for the set of people they just had about, they just had time to just to talk, just to talk, for an hour, just to talk one time per week. Because what you're seeing with people that have trauma is because traditional behavioural therapy or cognitive behavioural therapy is asking people to relive those memories and to address them to bring to the forefront of their consciousness and to address them. There is a lot of fallout and what they're seeing is that a lot of people coming to the sessions 'cause it's too painful, there's too much exposure. Yet the people that were losing the PTSD diagnosis were the ones that were just able to talk for an hour a week. So when you look at a study like that, we're already on that path, we're going, huh? This is kind of what I'm seeing in dogs when exposures happening, we're always keeping dogs in that tolerance. And sometimes we're seeing this, this cycle of dog's doing well, then it regresses and then we have to go back and then it's doing well. Then it regresses, and then we might get it to a point where actually can walk past another dog, but not entirely comfortable and we're still having to use food or play with our toys or do something so that the dog does not react. And that's where I began to think, wait a second. I think the same thing is happening with dogs. Studies also been done with children. Children that are having difficulties with mathematics reading in school. And so they act up and guess what? They're taken out to the head of school. So they're taken outta class. And what's great about that is the kid knows they act up, they're gonna leave.

Yeah.

So they're getting escape through their active behaviour

Yeah.

understanding that active behaviour and going, okay, we're gonna help you. But then when you see success, making it harder, you'll see kids regressing again. But when you give them more agency and the ability to escape, give them more choice and ways to escape. It might not be in physical escape, but it, it's understanding how, how that kid can cope. The nos turn into yeses. it's all, it's, it's taken really from the studies that have been done in humans and seeing how they apply to dogs and also seeing the success in the field of R-Z-A-Z-A. Sorry, it's really difficult for me to say. It's, I, I have to be really careful of what country I am speaking to.

It. Okay. That's fine. Brilliant. Thanks Victoria. So what inspired you to create this approach? Was there a moment when you just realized the old way wasn't helping enough dogs or guardians? I.

I have two. I had two dogs that showed reactive behaviour. One was Sadie, who I adopted when she was five, but she was a large Labrador, and man, she was strong and big and loud and scary. And I did a lot of DSCC with her. And so we were able to walk past other dogs pretty successfully, as long as I had food. And pretty successfully actually sometimes without food as well. entirely comfortable, but definitely better progress with Jasmine. Yeah, yeah. Food. Screw that. Like I don't, no, you can praise me all you like and yeah, I don't care about games because what I'm gonna do is shout really loudly that other dog to tell 'em to get away from me. So then I was like, okay, well Jasmine, we're gonna have to find another way. And I thought, okay, I'm gonna just teach you some skills, some escape skills. I'm gonna teach her how we can move through these, through these situations. And I'm also going to teach her skills that I'm gonna take from what I've learned from her when she's in comfort. And one of the things, when she's in comfort, she asks to be picked up. So I go, okay, we are going to do a pickup cue, also I'm gonna really read her body language. Whenever she asks me to pick her up, I'm gonna pick her up. Fast forward to when we are on the street, she, there's another dog coming. She looks back at me. I see, oh, she wants to be picked up. I pick her up, we walk past the other dog, I put her down. I go, wait a second. I'm a trainer. I shouldn't be picking my dog up. I shouldn't be reinforcing that behaviour. I should be walking her past another dog and giving her some food. And then I was like, okay, penny drop. Nope. She is telling me what she needs there, and then she needs to be picked up. So I pick her up. Can't do that obviously with the bigger dogs, but I can do that with her. It was like a, the light bulb went off, but B, also how, how did it take that long with all of the stuff and the work I was trying to do with her to finally get it and go, gonna tell me what she needs. And she did. And then from then on, she didn't always need to be picked up. When we passed another dog, she could go off and do her sniffing because she knew I was there as her anchor. If she needed me, I was there. And that's why the reactivity zones approach is so powerful because you are the dog human team. There's no blame. There's no blame on the dog because reactivity isn't set inside the dog. Yes, there might be sensitivities that the dog might have, but if that dog lived on the house on the hill, right and saw no other dogs, if Jasmine lived on the house on the hill she never saw other dogs at all, she'd never be labeled a reactive dog. 'cause you wouldn't need to show that behaviour. So isn't inside the dog. It's not a character trait. It is the friction between the dog and the environment. And so when we look at environment, that is the key to the reactivity zones approach is the environment.

Yeah. Love that. Right. Let's get practical then. Almost felt like getting get, let's get physical in Olivia Newton Journal. You know, start jigging along. So applying art ZA in real life, a lot of guardians struggle because dog training feels like it only works in those perfect controlled scenarios. But how does RZ Day help people in the real world with prams bikes, off lead dogs, and all the chaos that comes with life? Victoria, I.

yeah. So it's a real attention to environment, to detail and to understand that sometimes life gets messy. I think you just, when a, when we tell guardians yet you don't have a reactive dog, they cry. They are and they're like, my dog is not deficient. My dog is just saying how it feels, whether it's frustrated, wants to go greet, or it's uncomfortable. Your dog is just saying how it feels. immediately there you remove the shame. And a lot of the time we just take, we like, this isn't, this isn't your fault by the way.

Yeah.

try. You're doing the best you can. That's all we can do. we're just gonna give you a few other bits and pieces that you can do that might help you. We do a lot of what you know, people are, are doing. 'cause a lot of trainers are doing this, right? They're doing parts of this already. we say, okay, sometimes you might need a vacation away from that particular environment where you are walking the dog. And whilst we're doing that for the next couple of weeks, we're going to teach in the comfort zone. teach your dog some great skills that you can use in the tolerance zone to move through a situation and in the discomfort zone to get away. So escape behaviours like the emergency U-turn offer, the discomfort zone, moving through a situation, whether we are actively moving or stationary in one place are skills we build for the tolerance zone. And then of course the comfort zone speaks for itself. 'cause the dog shows us what skills that it likes to do. But we do teach attention in the comfort zone and sniffy skills if the dog needs that. So you can teach whatever skills you want in any zone as long as they follow. Discomfort means escape. Tolerance means move through or stay stationary as that trigger walks past. And then comfort means whatever the dog loves doing and finds joy in doing. That's the beauty of it, the simplicity of it for guardians. So we are teaching skills, but we are teaching easy skills. And the beauty of this as well is if you find something doesn't work, go on to something else. if you want to bring in some stuff that you've already been doing or stuff from another protocol, do it. will find where your balance is, but I think that's, we are not gonna do it in front of a trigger. And so when, for example, so let's say I am out in the real world and a dog is coming along and I have my little dog. I will have pre walked without my dog. The route. is vital that people pre-war the roots you are gonna take your dog on. So you can find what trees you can hide behind, what walls you can get up on the environment. Whether you are in a shelter or whether you are outside or indoors. Find amazing things in the environment that you can use to help your dog.

Yeah.

And so go for a walk without your dog walk around your house without your dog to find what is gonna be successful. So then I might know that at this particular point, there's another dog walking past, there's a wall here and teach my dog who already knows how to pause up or hop up to hop up on the wall. When dogs are at a higher height, especially with little dogs, they feel more comfortable. Plus, it's a way to say to other dogs do not come near and to people do not come near. It's like a signal, universal signal that people know.

Yeah.

rarely run up to dogs that are on walls, for example. So that's just an example of how we can use it in the real world.

Love it. So what does it look like if a dog slips into the discomfort zone? And what should guardians do in those moments? Victoria?

So the discomfort zone is very clearly where the dog now focuses on the trigger walking past or the trigger in the distance, and cannot focus on anything else. It is, it is the, the dog might be incredibly tense and the dog can bark and lunge, but it is fixed onto that trigger.

Yeah.

that is when we use our escape. Now the dog already knows that Q word. The dog already has learnt the steps of the dance and knows that when you say turning, oh, we're gonna get out of there. Great. And so that's why I liken all of this to dancing because so much reactivity, you're dancing different steps. You're treading on each other's toes. It's all, it's terrible. It's not strictly, it's awful. It's actually, it's, it's when strictly is awful, And things go badly wrong, that's reactivity. So the dog's got to learn the steps of the dance. The person's got to learn the steps of the dance. Then you put it together, you rehearse it in comfort, and you rehearse it and rehearse it and rehearse it. And then you go out and you rehearse it outside and everybody knows what they're going to do. You are making, whether you are in a different environment, a different situation, you are making things predictable. So when I say turning, the dog knows, oh, mom's turning in the direction. I'm gonna go with her. And we get outta there.

Yeah.

understand my dogs need to escape. We're gonna go.

Off we go. Brilliant. You place a lot of emphasis on letting dogs have choice. Why is that so important for their emotional wellbeing, especially for those reactive dogs?

So humans on average, and I hope I've got this number right, make around 32,000 choices a day. something ridiculous

Yeah. Yeah.

and what choices do our dogs make? Pretty much not, I mean, you are the one who lets them out to toilet. You are the one that says when they're gonna walk. You are the one that says when they're gonna be fed. But can you imagine going through life, not knowing what's gonna happen, and then when you get taken for a walk. Really not knowing where you're gonna go or when you get put in the car, you don't know what's gonna happen. they live in a world of uncertainty we start making things more predictable for them. And that's why I think choice is real part of that. okay, simple things. You want this toy or this toy? Make your choice. It's like when we, when we have little ones, right? So when your toddler is old enough and you put out three, know, clothing sets for school, which one do you wanna wear today? That toddler is able to make that choice. You are giving that kid some agency. Now, even at a very young age. We know that in children, when you give them more agency, more choice, that they grow up to be more confident adults. The same with the same with dogs. So when I can give the dog more choice about the direction it wants to walk in, now the dog has some empowered because maybe the world is not so scary and that they have more ability, more confidence to be able to deal with it. I don't want my dogs just to cope. I want my dogs to thrive, and I think Choice helps them do that.

Yeah.

But you know, I mean we're such control freaks. God forbid we give dogs choice and I know the positive community is much more into giving dogs choice, which is amazing. But you know, for other trainers out there, it's almost like the heads will explode or you can't do that 'cause Oh my God, forbid we do that.

Oh my God. Right. What does reading the dog in inverted commas really mean? And are there some subtle signs that guardians often miss?

Well, I think just guardians and trainers miss the signs of tolerance.

Yeah.

the whole thing with DSCC. I don't think they are. I mean, it depends on how experienced the trainer is. But even with experienced trainers, I think they're just, and I, I'm putting myself in there as well, like I used to do all the time, just piling more and more and more on these dogs thinking that we're doing well and it's a success. Moving our dogs closer to triggers. 'cause they're not going sh they're not shouting yet. And trying to look at body language and seeing that our dogs are comfortable, but because we're under pressure with our, with our clients and also with ourselves 'cause we need to prove it as well. And we want to be hired again, that we gotta do this fast. So sometimes we might push and we are really good at pushing, trainers are really good at pushing, if you're a positive trainer, understand it, you are under the gun. And you know that person is looking at you going, okay, I need you to fix my dog now.

Yeah.

So I think, I think, you know, our hats off to to, to trainers out there listening to this. I understand that pressure you are in,

Yeah.

the dog under pressure. But that's not always good.

Probably not realizing, yeah, you're right. You are feeling it, but you unknowingly you are putting that onto the dog.

Yep. Yeah. And with the best of intentions too,

Exactly.

difficult to understand that intolerance, you know, you might be comfortable and the only reason why you are comfortable is that your dog is not making you uncomfortable yet,

Yeah.

because it's not going full blast shouting, but the dog is still uncomfortable, hasn't made you uncomfortable. And when you understand that fact, you go, oh, hard. It's hard to look at yourself and go, okay, I get it. I

Yeah. Yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. You often mention about proactive management tools like blocking, stationing, emergency UANs. How can these be taught kindly and confidently? Victoria, I,

do

I.

food. We just don't use food to create a positive association. I might use food as in a lick magnet to help my dog get outta there. I just teach a dog, you know, to, there are dogs that love licking. Okay, let's use that and let's put some peanut butter at the end of a spoon, or on my hand or in a squeeze tube and put it up to the dog's nose. And then we just, you know, we go together and we do that dance. And sometimes, you know, we, we do fun things like riding the dog's name as they follow that lick magnet. So we use food we've gone past a trigger, we might say, Hey, great job, boom, and have some food. we don't use food to create a positive association. So all of this stuff can be taught in a really positive way. I learned, so Patricia McConnell, who's my mentor, and somebody who's made a huge impact in my life. You know, I learned a lot about the Emergency U-turn from her, but I also learned about the emergency U-turn from my grandmother, who was not a trainer. She was a dog breeder, bred beagles. And actually, you know, the, the whole Crofts controversy at the moment by the way, I'm working with Crofts, so it's all right.

Okay.

Yeah, and working with some great people there. My grandmother ex showed her dogs at Crofts, and so I grew up as a young handler.

Right.

Anyway, one thing that she taught, she lived next to the River Thames in this beautiful village. And so we would take her dogs for a walk along the Thames and in the field. It was beautiful. And when she got to the point where the dogs needed to turn round, would say, turning, and the dogs would look at her. And turn around and follow her. So I now use for the emergency U-turn, I have that same thought in my head. We're going for a lovely walk. Okay, we're going in the other direction. And I go turning. 'cause it's really difficult to say turning in a panicked way. So that's why. And I've had other people and a good colleague of mine that other people use different words and, you know, I hope this doesn't offend people if I use this word my colleague told me about a train, a friend of theirs who used the words, oh shit. Because that's what she would say a lot when they encountered other dogs. She'd go, oh, oh o and turn around. So she turned that phrase around and made it a oh, which was brilliant. So anyway, I used turning to do the emergency U-turn dogs love it 'cause there's that nice light voice.

Love that.

They know we're gonna go off in the other direction. You can do it on lead and off. Lead.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. Turn in. I've got that.

Yeah.

gonna have that go.

Yeah. Right.

Brilliant. Right. So moving on to building resilience, not obedience.

Yeah.

you, you've said before that RZA is about resilience, not obedience. What does resilience look like in a reactive dog, Victoria?

Okay. There's a difference between coping thriving, and I think we've got to be really careful when we are trying to build resilience in our dogs. What does it look like? We look at rate of recovery. quickly does it, do our dogs recover from a loud noise, a stressful situation? Does it take them a long time? Does it take them a short time? Can they bounce back? What is that rate of recovery? quickly do they bounce back? And I think if we see that rate of recovery as being quite quick, again, our tendency is to push, oh, is more resilient now. Now we can put them in harder, harder environments. So I think we got to be really careful when we talk about resilience and what does it look like different for every dogs, but sometimes resilience could literally be the fact that a dog looks resilience of Jasmine looking at me saying, I need to be picked up. That to me is resilience. That to me is a dog that's thriving. It's not necessarily a dog that goes, oh yeah, I'm good. I can walk past this other dog and be fine.

Yeah.

So we're building it, we build it slowly we do not push, but it, to me. is the dog that understands now that that environment, that walk, they know that there is a predictability and the calmness that comes from predictability. And also trusting you and trusting that you have their back. So there is a client who we have a lot of electric fences. And so dogs will run to the end of the electric to, to the bottom of the, the, the front yards, front gardens, like anything. And then of course, which is terrible for dogs that are showing reactive behaviour because then they bark back 'cause they don't know that there's an invisible fence there. Resilience is when the dog has that confidence now that we could walk past that fence with the dogs roaring down. They, they just, they did not feel that need to shout back. They were like, looked without me saying a look at them and look away from them. They looked, just walked on fluid body language. Just, I got you. So that to me, the dog will tell you when it is thriving, you don't do it the other way.

Yeah.

That's resilience.

Yeah, I love that. How does a guardian know that they're making progress, especially when progress can sometimes be a bit slow, messy, or emotional?

So with. Aza day. Remember I've done a lot of my work in Manhattan,

Hmm.

so dogs need to be bought outta their apartments to toilet,

Yes.

ones. A lot of the smaller dogs are can be paper trained. So in fact, you'll find that in Manhattan a lot of small dogs will be paper trained and they go outside,

Oh, really?

of worlds. Yeah,

Oh.

actually better for us to use if we don't want the dog to go out in the, in the outside. But for the dogs that do need to go out and toilet four times a day, you're taking that dog out into its discomfort zone like that. So are you gonna do? Well, we teach discomfort zones, really fast zone skills really fast, and they're easy. Emergency U-turns all kinds of, you know, lick magnets. We teach them fast 'cause we understand, and you know, in Manhattan we try, okay, walk your dog early in the morning, walk your dog late at night. The two p breaks in the middle. If you can find an indentation where your dog can go in a building or something, if there is a way that you can do that you can do body blocking, things like that. We find ways, we find cars. There's lots of cars in Manhattan that's parked on the side of the road or we find the trees, we walk the environment first with the person without the dog. So we find, and, and this is what's very exciting, because we're also using this for shelters. Even if you are working in the crappiest shelter, what can we find in that environment to set our dogs up for success, to make them feel better? So you can still, even if you're taking your dog out to toilet four times a day in a city like Manhattan. You can still find ways to help your dog through. So we start using discomfort zone skills first if the dog is in discomfort, or we teach tolerance zone skills if the dog is in intolerance when they go out and we gradually build. So what was your question, because I've just gone off on a tangent. Your question was like, how is how fast?

No, that's fine. It just if a guardian how does a guardian know if they're making progress, especially if the progress is slow, messy, or, or emotional.

Yeah. Interestingly enough we have, so everybody has what's called negativity bias. That's why we ask guardians just to keep a log of what happens. Just a one, one thing. Great walk today, whatever dog did whatever. Because what happens is, is if there is, and there will be. A moment that maybe didn't go so well, will call you up and go, oh, it was just, it's just, it was, it went badly today. It was not a good day today. And you go, yeah, okay, I get it. 'cause you know, it's real life, but let's look at your journal before and wow, you have made a lot of progress. And they see, yes, because negative negativity bias is when bad things happen. And that's all you can focus on, though there's been massive progress. So it's really important that we keep data and part of the reactivity zones approach, especially with the, the course I have for professionals is that we keep data. Now, I am not an organized person. Data bores me. But keeping really good data. When we started to write the lesson, I was like, Ugh, this is gonna be so boring. And then I geeked out on it. I was like, actually this is really cool because it helps people see their progress and track their progress. It helps us, this is not working here. We now need to make a change or this is working great. And even that glimmer sometimes with clients, it can happen the next day. It can happen the next week. what we're seeing with reactivity zones approach, it's not months and months and months. We're talking weeks, we're talking weeks. And I think that's the surprising thing. But I do have to say caveat here. Sometimes it's not for every dog. And then also, that where if you've got a dog with a bite history, we are saying you need to, you need to get a trainer that is going to work on aggression issues with your dog. So we are not saying that this dog, if you've got a dog that's biting other dogs and biting people and everything, no, no, no. You need to go to a specialist that deals with aggressive behaviour.

Yeah. Mm.

So I, I think I want to make that very clear.

Good. Yeah. Brilliant. How can the guardians stay compassionate towards themselves? So activity can feel incredibly isolating, but what would you want them to know?

Well, first of all, like I said in the beginning, it's not your fault. You don't, your dog is not a reactive dog. dog just has issues with the environment, right? Your dog just has, friction between your dog and certain triggers in the environment, and it's gonna be okay.

Yeah,

really support. It's a, it's a team and you know, we do use, as I said, we do use a lot of management. And we do use a lot of pre-planning, pre-planning walks. We through leash skills. I've never understood, and I've done this myself, why don't actually practice how to handle leashes and harnesses and everything without dogs being in them so that we improve our leash skills. so we improve our walking skills. So I will literally take people out with their leash and we walk with the leash and that's it. And I will hold the other end of the leash and guardians get to know the feel of a, what it's like to be on that other end of that leash when they hold the leash. when about how they guiding their dogs, it's fabulous.

Yeah.

Why are we just putting this stuff on our dogs and taking them out? Like as I grew up with horses and we never as children. Would ever just put a bridle on a horse and a saddle on a horse without understanding how to use that bridle, how to use that saddle and what it means for the horse. And then going through all of these safety things before we actually get on and ride.

Yeah.

So we empower clients,

Yeah. I love that.

are very, they become very knowledgeable very quickly,

Yeah.

they start to see results. But also, I do have to say, Nathan, we are working in the real world as well.

Yeah,

We don't have robots at the other end of our leash. We have dogs,

yeah. Yeah.

aren't gonna go well. You're gonna have that dog running up to you. You're gonna have that kid on the bike that all of a sudden the dog goes, oh, that you didn't notice it. The dog didn't notice it, and it's going to happen. But as long as you have skills to deal with it when it happens,

Yeah.

that empowers handlers

Yeah. Amazing. Love that. Thank you. Oh, brilliant. So Victoria, we're gonna touch on your TV work, if that's okay. As we start wrapping up. So you've had such an iconic presence on TV from its meal, the dog or the dog academy on channel four. What's it been like bringing force free behaviour education to mainstream audiences?

I'd say it's been an honor and also exhausting and amazing and difficult. I think when you see traders on tv, love 'em will hate them, when, you know, you see me do stuff on television, there's a lot of my pre-planning before. But when I go and see a family, it's the first time I've actually met them. So before I see them I see like we used to, oh my gosh, this is aging me a little DVDI used to get DVDs of, you know, some of the

Yeah.

about three minutes, four minutes. And then of course they have to fill out behavioural forms, the whole thing. And we have to have vet checks and everything to make sure. But the time when I go into homes is what the first time I meet with the family. As happens with the dog academy too. The first time we meet them is the first time we meet them and you see

Wow.

camera.

Yeah.

and all the work is our work. It is not we don't have other trainers planning the work for us. Might I say. all our work and that we, do ourselves. So we might, you know, there might be protocols that we've learned and everything, but we don't have other trainers planning our stuff for us. And that in itself means that we have to be meticulous. is a it is very, very hard teach dogs and people in front of cameras because not only do I have to be that forward facing with the camera, knowing that entertainment value is important, but my first concern is that dog and then that person, and I have to get it right, which is a reason for every single thing I do. I always have a backup and then a backup. Because what I've become really good with the show that I've done is a problem solving and certainly sometimes with, let's say the dog academy, you might, the producers want to know exactly what you are gonna do, where you are gonna do it, how long it's gonna be. And so we are under the, we're under pressure to make sure that it's perfect. And the thing is, what happens is sometimes the dog will come to you and what you might do doesn't work. And then, or you might go even before you start working, oh, I have to pivot completely.

Yeah.

do it in this location. We have to do it in this location. I'm not gonna do what I told you I was gonna do. I'm now gonna do something different. The producer's head is explodes, but they're so good at going. Got it. Right. Pivot. That's what my crew at the it's meal, the dog were really good at doing as well

Yeah,

the dogs at the end of the day and you go in and you'll see something different.

yeah,

you do doesn't work. Now you have to pivot. So I, so it's really hard. Training dogs on television really difficult and doing it in a positive way with the least amount of stress you can for the dog, knowing that cameras are not normal for them, that's challenging.

yeah. And we mentioned earlier they're not robots. So dogs are animals. They're unpredictable. So you're gonna have to mix it up and pivot.

Totally. But I think that's what makes you it definitely made me a better trainer. You know, I've evolved, right? The first show that I did was 2005. I mean, miss Meal, the dog spans 20 years. And so so I've evolved. My methods have evolved. I used to do a lot of sound diversion. I don't do that anymore. And so a lot of my techniques have evolved. The equipment I use has evolved. So, but I think that's also, that's also good because every trainer needs to evolve. We need to have the courage to do so. If you're still doing what you did 20 years ago, I don't think that's the mark of a good trainer.

Do you think that the public's understanding of reactivity and behaviour is improving thanks to modern train and visibility in the media?

Yes and no. I did up to the time of TikTok,

Oh God. Yeah.

I think TikTok has been I'm, I mean, I, I just have a small little channel on TikTok, but I think it's been an absolute, I mean, it's been devastating for, for, for dogs in general, people's understanding of dogs in the way they train them, because. Seeing a dog with gnashing teeth and then being dominated by a trainer is weirdly sexy for a lot of people. It's seductive television, right? Man, conquers dog. And so they have millions of followers, and they're not really trainers. Some of them are, some of them are just not, but they call themselves trainers

Yeah.

damage. So I think that in this industry, we were making great strides and people understanding what dogs needed how to go about teaching them a different way. And now it seems to be regressing a lot because people are getting very seduced by what they see on certain social media channels. And it's really sad. It's really sad.

That is,

say, I'm, I'm so sad for the dogs. I just apologize to them and say I'm really sorry.

oh gosh, yeah. TikTok or I had a bad experience with TikTok. I haven't gone back on six.

Oh no, it's, it's, I just do talking head stuff. It, it's, TikTok is really, it's its own beast, but I think it has done, I mean, but I'm put, I'm painting a bad picture 'cause there are some really good trainers on there as well that do, are doing some amazing stuff. It's just

definitely.

seems like the bad stuff shouts louder the good stuff in everything.

Yeah, with everything, yeah. You're always gonna get someone like moaning about the bad stuff rather than just telling everyone about the good. We're gonna start wrapping up, spend the last couple of minutes, but you've worked with thousands of dogs and guardians. Is there a particular reactivity case or moment that's stayed with you that's really embodied the heart of your work?

There is so many.

loud. Yeah.

There's loads. I think one of the, yeah, it was a German Shepherd. I was working with Phoenix and she made, I mean, it just was like night and day with her. But, you know, then I was still doing some DSCC with her. But was when I was beginning to like transition into more of the, the more of my AZA day approach. So but then where I did do the AZA Day approach more is with a dog that was very reactive to a baby. And every single time the baby was picked up, especially, or the, and that I would say was life changing for those people. And there's been so many dogs in cars. Yeah, I can't really, I can't really pick one. There's a a, 'cause we have a lot of pit bulls here and there's a pit bull that I've been working with, was very reactive towards other dogs. It's beautiful to see how comfortable she is now. So, and a lot of people say, oh, this stuff doesn't work on the larger dogs. We work with a lot of larger dogs here because we have pitties, we have braces, we have canna. Corso, we have the whole, I mean, I know you have Canac Corso in the uk we have a lot of these larger, massive type dogs as well. Excel bullies, you name it.

Yeah,

so if it works on them, it can on anything

that's it. Victoria, if a guardian is listing right now and they feel lost, embarrassed, overwhelmed, what would you want to say directly to them?

I wanna say we've all been there, we understand. There is definitely things that you can do to help you and your dog. There are great trainers out there that can make a huge difference in your lives, and don't be afraid to reach out.

I love that, Victoria, for those wanting to dive deeper into your reactivity zones approach, RZA. Where can they learn more please?

So we have for Guardians, we have a course@positively.com. It's called Help Stop Reactivity. they can take that course. It's a really fun, it's really entertaining and you'll learn a lot for professionals. We have the Reactivity for dog training and behaviour Professionals course, and that's at dta.com, the Victoria Stilwell Academy. and there that is about a 10 to 12 hour course where we go, really, we use Help Stop Reactivity, but then there's the professional part of each lesson, and we also talk a lot about the business of reactivity. And so it's a really comprehensive course for professionals. And we're also bringing out a sort of an in, it's online, but it's an in person. Masterclass, four reactive cases. So you bring your reactivity cases and discuss it with other trainers and with our faculty and you know, you take videos and everything and so it's a six week course. Yeah, that's and online in person.

Nice. I'm gonna put all those details and links in the show notes. Victoria Stilwell, thank you so much for joining me on the Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy. I've absolutely loved chatting with you today.

Thank you, Nathan. You're a great interviewer and I really appreciate you having

Oh,

Thank you.

oh, thank you so much. Thank you.

Bye.

Before we wrap up, here are a few key takeaways from my incredible conversation with Victoria Stilwell. Number one, reactivity isn't disobedience. It's distress. Your dog isn't giving you a hard time. They're having a hard time. Number two, the reactivity zones approach is built on safety, trust, and choice. We support dogs in the comfort and tolerance zones so they can learn without overwhelm. Number three, real life requires flexibility. Humane tools, emergency utahans, block in and read in subtle signals. Help us keep reactive dogs feeling protected. Number four, progress is rarely linear, and that's okay. Consistency and compassion go much further than perfection. Number five, you are not failing. You are learning alongside your dog. Supporting a reactive dog is emotional work and you deserve support just as much as they do. A huge thank you to Victoria for sharing how. Her heart and her groundbreaking approach of us today. If you enjoy today's episode, please consider leaving us with you. Share it with a fellow dog parent, and subscribe so you don't miss future episodes. This has been The Yappy Hour, powered by Yappy. I'll see you next time.