1 00:00:00,070 --> 00:00:03,450 Matt Edmundson: We are a digital church on a quest to discover how Jesus 2 00:00:03,450 --> 00:00:06,399 helps us live a more meaningful life. 3 00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:11,089 We are a community, a space to explore the Christian faith and a place 4 00:00:11,090 --> 00:00:13,030 where you can contribute and grow. 5 00:00:14,069 --> 00:00:18,049 Our service will last about an hour and in a few seconds we will start 6 00:00:18,049 --> 00:00:23,744 with a time of worship after which you will meet Our hosts for our service 7 00:00:24,044 --> 00:00:26,174 who will introduce today's talk. 8 00:00:26,755 --> 00:00:31,755 After the talk we head into Conversation Street where we look at your stories 9 00:00:31,755 --> 00:00:36,285 and questions that you've posted in the comments throughout the live stream. 10 00:00:37,014 --> 00:00:41,664 I want to invite you to connect with us here at Crowd Church and there are 11 00:00:41,664 --> 00:00:44,734 a few ways that you can do just that. 12 00:00:45,094 --> 00:00:50,324 Firstly, you can engage with Crowd from any device during our live stream. 13 00:00:50,654 --> 00:00:54,400 And if you're up for it, Why not invite a few friends over and 14 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,680 experience the service together? 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,910 Church is all about connecting with God and connecting with others, and 16 00:01:01,910 --> 00:01:06,560 one of the easiest ways for you to do that is to also join one of our 17 00:01:06,590 --> 00:01:11,620 midweek groups where we need online together to catch up and discover 18 00:01:11,620 --> 00:01:14,230 more about the amazingness of Christ. 19 00:01:14,710 --> 00:01:18,010 You can also subscribe to our podcast called What's. 20 00:01:18,075 --> 00:01:21,785 It's the story where we deep dive into stories of faith and 21 00:01:21,785 --> 00:01:24,435 courage from everyday people. 22 00:01:25,345 --> 00:01:29,224 More information about all of these things that I've mentioned can 23 00:01:29,224 --> 00:01:32,355 be found on our website at www. 24 00:01:32,415 --> 00:01:32,785 crowd. 25 00:01:33,054 --> 00:01:37,635 church or you can reach us on social media at Crowd Church. 26 00:01:38,565 --> 00:01:42,205 If you're new to Crowd or new to the Christian faith, And would like to know 27 00:01:42,205 --> 00:01:46,705 what your next steps to take are why not head over to our website crowd. 28 00:01:46,965 --> 00:01:50,925 church forward slash next for more details. 29 00:01:54,465 --> 00:01:58,785 And now, the moment you've been waiting for is here, our 30 00:01:58,915 --> 00:02:00,894 online church service starts. 31 00:02:01,570 --> 00:02:03,180 Right now. 32 00:02:04,460 --> 00:02:05,440 Good evening, everyone. 33 00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:06,980 Welcome to Crowd Church. 34 00:02:07,250 --> 00:02:10,880 My name is Matt Edmundson and beside me is my beautiful wife. 35 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:13,199 Greetings and salutations. 36 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:14,449 Sorry, we're a little bit late. 37 00:02:14,450 --> 00:02:15,120 Sorry. 38 00:02:15,869 --> 00:02:17,230 We had a few technical issues. 39 00:02:17,390 --> 00:02:23,464 We went live and then it all crashed and so hopefully if you were on the old 40 00:02:23,464 --> 00:02:26,784 live stream links that you'll find us. 41 00:02:26,844 --> 00:02:27,854 Sorry about that. 42 00:02:27,894 --> 00:02:28,684 Welcome to you. 43 00:02:29,004 --> 00:02:29,664 Hi, Miriam. 44 00:02:29,664 --> 00:02:30,374 Hi, Andy. 45 00:02:30,374 --> 00:02:30,974 Hey, Andy. 46 00:02:30,974 --> 00:02:31,704 How you doing, brother? 47 00:02:31,704 --> 00:02:32,354 Good to see you. 48 00:02:32,674 --> 00:02:34,294 Welcome to Crowd. 49 00:02:34,494 --> 00:02:37,294 Like I said, we are, like I said at the start, you, we were talking 50 00:02:37,294 --> 00:02:38,014 about this, weren't we, that, 51 00:02:38,064 --> 00:02:39,924 this was pre bearded Matt recording. 52 00:02:39,924 --> 00:02:40,634 A little bit out of date, isn't it? 53 00:02:42,924 --> 00:02:46,534 So the whole video intro we created is a little bit out of date. 54 00:02:46,594 --> 00:02:48,134 And so I was saying we need to re record it. 55 00:02:49,364 --> 00:02:51,534 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, and I've just spent the last few minutes watching 56 00:02:51,534 --> 00:02:55,684 him frantically typing and doing stuff to try and get this back up. 57 00:02:56,464 --> 00:02:56,714 Yeah. 58 00:02:56,714 --> 00:02:57,764 It'll look very impressive. 59 00:02:58,244 --> 00:02:59,634 Matt Edmundson: Apparently apparently. 60 00:02:59,864 --> 00:03:00,774 And do you know what the problem was? 61 00:03:00,774 --> 00:03:01,084 Do you know? 62 00:03:01,654 --> 00:03:02,724 Yeah, you won't know what the problem is. 63 00:03:03,154 --> 00:03:06,004 This whole issue was caused by somebody turning off a piece of equipment 64 00:03:06,004 --> 00:03:06,934 that should not have been turned off. 65 00:03:08,074 --> 00:03:08,864 Someone's in trouble. 66 00:03:09,914 --> 00:03:11,424 Yeah, I don't know who yet. 67 00:03:12,054 --> 00:03:12,844 Definitely wasn't me. 68 00:03:12,894 --> 00:03:15,624 But when I find out, man alive is that going to be trouble. 69 00:03:17,374 --> 00:03:18,864 Anyway, we're with you now. 70 00:03:18,864 --> 00:03:20,364 So a warm welcome to you. 71 00:03:20,814 --> 00:03:23,074 We'll update all the thumbnails and all that sort of stuff. 72 00:03:23,334 --> 00:03:25,464 Probably tomorrow we'll get the video guys to do that. 73 00:03:25,464 --> 00:03:27,724 So yeah, we'll get all that stuff sorted out. 74 00:03:27,724 --> 00:03:30,984 But apologies and welcome if you're just joining us now. 75 00:03:31,754 --> 00:03:33,724 There have been a few tech issues, but we are live. 76 00:03:33,724 --> 00:03:34,934 We are streaming it seems. 77 00:03:35,404 --> 00:03:36,884 And people are in the comments saying, how's it? 78 00:03:38,404 --> 00:03:40,154 Yeah, I'm just going to calm down a little bit now. 79 00:03:40,604 --> 00:03:41,744 So what have we got coming up today? 80 00:03:42,614 --> 00:03:42,814 We've 81 00:03:42,814 --> 00:03:46,294 Sharon Edmundson: got a talk with Will Sopwith, who's continuing 82 00:03:46,804 --> 00:03:48,734 in our very long series of acts. 83 00:03:48,814 --> 00:03:50,354 I think we're almost at the end now though. 84 00:03:50,884 --> 00:03:51,124 Yeah. 85 00:03:51,125 --> 00:03:52,604 So he's going to be talking about that. 86 00:03:52,645 --> 00:03:57,115 And then after that, we will be back to chat about it and take any questions. 87 00:03:58,240 --> 00:03:58,910 Matt Edmundson: Yes, we are. 88 00:03:58,910 --> 00:04:00,850 I'm just getting people messaging me going, are we live? 89 00:04:00,900 --> 00:04:01,980 I can't see you anywhere. 90 00:04:02,210 --> 00:04:04,040 So I'm going to sort out those texts. 91 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:05,940 In fact, what I'm going to do is we're just going to go straight into the 92 00:04:05,940 --> 00:04:08,890 talk while I carry on sorting out the tech issues, unless you want to talk 93 00:04:08,900 --> 00:04:09,770 for a little bit while I sort them 94 00:04:09,770 --> 00:04:10,219 Sharon Edmundson: out. 95 00:04:10,220 --> 00:04:10,610 No, it's fine. 96 00:04:10,610 --> 00:04:12,340 And I'm definitely not talking out the tech issues. 97 00:04:14,970 --> 00:04:15,920 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I'll just carry on the show. 98 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:16,830 You sort out the tech issues. 99 00:04:17,270 --> 00:04:20,430 So I'm just going to let everybody know what the new link is. 100 00:04:20,785 --> 00:04:23,245 If you're watching on Facebook or if you're watching on YouTube, just share 101 00:04:23,245 --> 00:04:25,805 it out on social media so that those people that do watch along with us 102 00:04:25,805 --> 00:04:27,225 can get ahold of the new link as well. 103 00:04:27,635 --> 00:04:29,765 In the meantime, here is Will. 104 00:04:30,145 --> 00:04:31,305 We'll be back after 105 00:04:31,305 --> 00:04:31,685 Will Sopwith: this. 106 00:04:34,215 --> 00:04:37,555 I wonder how you would define good and bad. 107 00:04:39,075 --> 00:04:44,125 I wonder whether you would consider yourself a good person or a bad person. 108 00:04:45,415 --> 00:04:48,645 And I wonder what difference you think following Christ. 109 00:04:49,170 --> 00:04:52,730 would make to your assessment, or anyone else's assessment, 110 00:04:55,970 --> 00:04:57,450 of how good and bad you were. 111 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,230 Now, good and bad might seem obvious. 112 00:05:01,260 --> 00:05:04,500 If I gave you a survey asking you to classify a set of fairly 113 00:05:04,530 --> 00:05:08,590 obvious behaviours, I don't imagine there'd be much variation in view. 114 00:05:09,250 --> 00:05:11,280 The Jewish Ten Commandments cover some of these. 115 00:05:11,700 --> 00:05:14,470 Murder, theft, lying about someone. 116 00:05:14,740 --> 00:05:17,780 If I did the same survey in another cultural setting, however, 117 00:05:17,850 --> 00:05:19,170 the results might be different. 118 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:22,660 There might even be differences in a group of, say, 70 year 119 00:05:22,660 --> 00:05:24,750 olds compared to 20 year olds. 120 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,510 And actually, when you start thinking about it, there are a lot of grey areas. 121 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,960 You might start responding to some scenarios with, it depends. 122 00:05:36,190 --> 00:05:36,980 Does it matter? 123 00:05:37,940 --> 00:05:39,740 Is morality even a thing these days? 124 00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:42,920 Isn't it just a religious tool to make us feel guilty? 125 00:05:43,980 --> 00:05:46,580 Isn't my truth the most important thing? 126 00:05:46,870 --> 00:05:49,330 Isn't moral behaviour just down to individual perspective? 127 00:05:50,210 --> 00:05:52,150 That is, as long as no one gets hurt. 128 00:05:53,670 --> 00:05:57,560 You might be surprised to know that this issue of good and bad has been a 129 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:02,420 topic, a philosophical, and at times scientific debate for hundreds of years. 130 00:06:02,690 --> 00:06:07,270 And the reason is this, if you take divine instruction or a faith 131 00:06:07,270 --> 00:06:11,670 code out of the equation, for example the Ten Commandments, what 132 00:06:11,670 --> 00:06:14,340 basis of morality Do you turn to? 133 00:06:15,900 --> 00:06:21,590 And any thought experiment realises quite quickly that having some shared view of 134 00:06:21,590 --> 00:06:27,690 what is good or bad behaviour, or more precisely, acceptable or unacceptable 135 00:06:27,690 --> 00:06:32,690 behaviour is actually quite important in order for a society to function. 136 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:37,880 Despite the logical conclusion of evolution that good or bad behaviour 137 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,480 really shouldn't matter unless it increases your chance of survival. 138 00:06:43,830 --> 00:06:49,190 Darwin himself recognised that some form of common morality was essential 139 00:06:49,390 --> 00:06:51,960 for the survival of social animals. 140 00:06:53,260 --> 00:06:57,210 Social experiments in anarchy, or lawless communities, and there have 141 00:06:57,210 --> 00:06:59,780 been a few, have never ended well. 142 00:06:59,930 --> 00:07:01,390 Oh, not that I've heard anyway. 143 00:07:02,550 --> 00:07:03,340 It's obvious. 144 00:07:03,860 --> 00:07:06,990 Despite the apparent attraction of living entirely to meet. 145 00:07:07,225 --> 00:07:12,035 your own selfish needs, I'd suggest that most people actually want to live 146 00:07:12,245 --> 00:07:16,395 in a good neighborhood where their house isn't broken into, where they're 147 00:07:16,395 --> 00:07:19,425 not either completely ignored or constantly on the defence from attack. 148 00:07:21,215 --> 00:07:25,555 On a macro level, how can you foster cooperation between countries 149 00:07:25,995 --> 00:07:29,635 on something as big as climate change, if there's no commonly 150 00:07:29,635 --> 00:07:32,215 understood acceptable way of acting? 151 00:07:32,215 --> 00:07:37,915 And if behaviour is entirely down to us as individuals to decide. 152 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:38,920 What is good? 153 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:39,770 What is bad? 154 00:07:40,310 --> 00:07:43,290 How can you develop any sense of accountability? 155 00:07:43,410 --> 00:07:45,520 Or uphold law and order? 156 00:07:45,950 --> 00:07:48,920 How can you protect the rights of individuals in your community 157 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,510 to live safely and freely? 158 00:07:52,990 --> 00:07:56,840 How can you uphold human rights where there's no agreement 159 00:07:57,210 --> 00:07:59,050 on what human duties are? 160 00:07:59,470 --> 00:08:03,670 Now, of course, Religion and faith supply this moral framework 161 00:08:03,900 --> 00:08:05,540 to an extent and fill this gap. 162 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,290 But starting with Immanuel Kant in the 18th century, philosophers rejecting 163 00:08:12,290 --> 00:08:16,610 the existence of God have been musing on the need for an alternative, religion 164 00:08:16,620 --> 00:08:20,290 free set of common rules of behaviour. 165 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:25,009 They recognise there needs to be some, but can't accept that God is the source. 166 00:08:25,010 --> 00:08:29,460 A couple of years ago, an anthropology research group in Oxford did some really 167 00:08:29,470 --> 00:08:33,830 interesting research across 60 distinct cultures across multiple continents. 168 00:08:34,210 --> 00:08:39,170 And they identified seven moral rules that were consistently evident in all 169 00:08:39,170 --> 00:08:43,520 these different cultures, arguing this was the closest we've got yet to a 170 00:08:43,620 --> 00:08:47,095 universal, non religious, Moral Code. 171 00:08:48,915 --> 00:08:53,345 These behaviours, these definitive badges of good people are these. 172 00:08:54,575 --> 00:09:01,715 Helping family, helping group, reciprocating, by which I mean returning 173 00:09:01,715 --> 00:09:09,775 favours, paying back debts, but also taking revenge, being brave, respecting 174 00:09:09,775 --> 00:09:17,525 superiors, dividing resources so that everyone has enough, respecting property. 175 00:09:18,445 --> 00:09:22,845 And the theory goes that all these contribute to cooperation. 176 00:09:23,490 --> 00:09:27,080 Especially with those closest to us, which therefore, in the 177 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,110 end, benefits us as individuals. 178 00:09:30,310 --> 00:09:37,000 This fact that good behaviour actually increases our likelihood of survival 179 00:09:37,010 --> 00:09:41,200 neatly gets round the problem of why morality exists at all in the 180 00:09:41,210 --> 00:09:44,380 selfish survival theory of evolution. 181 00:09:45,470 --> 00:09:54,475 In a nutshell, good behaviour is counted good if, in the end, It helps me, and this 182 00:09:54,475 --> 00:09:56,525 is more or less the basis of game theory. 183 00:09:58,035 --> 00:10:04,995 So it follows, if there is a universal view of good and bad behaviours, there 184 00:10:04,995 --> 00:10:11,565 is also a universal judgement of whether someone is a good or a bad person. 185 00:10:12,415 --> 00:10:16,365 And this is usually as a result of someone's behaviour, how they stack 186 00:10:16,415 --> 00:10:17,865 up against the seven moral laws. 187 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:22,260 But there's also an astonishing amount of self help wisdom on the internet 188 00:10:22,260 --> 00:10:26,730 claiming that the universe treats people according to their morals, etc. 189 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:27,770 i. 190 00:10:27,780 --> 00:10:27,790 e. 191 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:32,500 your circumstance is somehow evidence of your moral standing. 192 00:10:34,620 --> 00:10:37,850 Now, being Crowd Church, you may be unsurprised to know that we will 193 00:10:37,850 --> 00:10:41,170 be looking at what the Christian worldview says about all this. 194 00:10:41,410 --> 00:10:45,320 And the passage we're looking at is a little scene to help us unpack it. 195 00:10:45,880 --> 00:10:49,460 And today's talk is called, Bad Stuff Happens. 196 00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:51,270 To bad people. 197 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:54,360 And I think we need to put a question mark on the end of that. 198 00:10:55,020 --> 00:10:59,440 So the passage is Acts 28, verse 1 to 10. 199 00:10:59,950 --> 00:11:00,530 And this is it. 200 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:07,370 Now when they had escaped, they then found out that the island was called Malta. 201 00:11:08,170 --> 00:11:11,920 And the natives showed us unusual kindness, for they kindled a fire and 202 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,920 made us all welcome, because of the rain that was falling and because of the cold. 203 00:11:16,930 --> 00:11:20,120 But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, 204 00:11:20,170 --> 00:11:22,530 a viper came out because of the heat. 205 00:11:22,835 --> 00:11:24,585 and fastened on his hand. 206 00:11:25,815 --> 00:11:28,925 So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one 207 00:11:28,925 --> 00:11:33,935 another, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped from the 208 00:11:33,935 --> 00:11:37,495 sea, yet justice does not allow to live. 209 00:11:38,345 --> 00:11:41,335 But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. 210 00:11:41,835 --> 00:11:45,425 However, they were expecting that he would swell up or suddenly fall down dead. 211 00:11:46,465 --> 00:11:49,855 But after they had looked for a long time and saw no harm come to him, 212 00:11:50,305 --> 00:11:55,895 They changed their minds and said that he was a God in that region. 213 00:11:55,895 --> 00:11:59,165 There was an estate of the leading citizen of the island whose name was 214 00:11:59,165 --> 00:12:03,365 Publius, who received us and entertained us courteously for three days. 215 00:12:04,045 --> 00:12:07,265 And it happened that the father of Publi, Publius lay sick 216 00:12:07,325 --> 00:12:08,825 of a fever and distant entry. 217 00:12:10,175 --> 00:12:13,475 Paul went into him and prayed, and he laid his hands on him and healed him. 218 00:12:14,790 --> 00:12:17,390 So when this was done, the rest of those on the island who had 219 00:12:17,390 --> 00:12:20,090 diseases also came and were healed. 220 00:12:21,110 --> 00:12:25,890 They also honoured us in many ways, and when we departed, they provided 221 00:12:25,900 --> 00:12:28,670 such things as were necessary. 222 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:31,130 Let's remind ourselves of the context. 223 00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:35,415 Paul is on what it turns out to be His last journey. 224 00:12:36,225 --> 00:12:38,915 He'd been arrested in Jerusalem several years before. 225 00:12:39,325 --> 00:12:41,925 The Jewish leaders had finally had enough of what they saw as 226 00:12:41,925 --> 00:12:44,045 his blasphemous views on Jesus. 227 00:12:45,315 --> 00:12:48,545 Paul had been knocking around under house arrest with no one taking any 228 00:12:48,545 --> 00:12:51,955 responsibility for what would happen to him and he was finally dispatched to Rome 229 00:12:51,955 --> 00:12:54,505 to make his case before Caesar himself. 230 00:12:55,295 --> 00:12:59,345 On the way The ship gets caught in a storm, Paul persuades the Roman soldiers 231 00:12:59,355 --> 00:13:04,295 not to kill all the prisoners, boldly proclaims no one will die, and they are 232 00:13:04,305 --> 00:13:06,585 washed ashore on the island of Malta. 233 00:13:07,095 --> 00:13:09,355 All alive, as predicted. 234 00:13:09,875 --> 00:13:11,575 And that's where we get to the passage today. 235 00:13:13,545 --> 00:13:17,815 So in the lead up to this episode on Malta, you could argue there was quite a 236 00:13:17,815 --> 00:13:22,965 bit of evidence on a simplistic level that Paul was securely in the bad camp, that 237 00:13:22,965 --> 00:13:25,985 the universe was clearly paying him back. 238 00:13:26,875 --> 00:13:28,325 He'd been under arrest for years. 239 00:13:28,515 --> 00:13:30,435 He'd been within an inch of losing his life. 240 00:13:30,625 --> 00:13:33,505 He must have been at quite a low point, freezing, exhausted, 241 00:13:33,915 --> 00:13:35,915 perhaps losing hope for his future. 242 00:13:37,030 --> 00:13:40,990 He didn't even have a family, and he airs to continue the family name. 243 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,280 Malta was not a dream summer holiday destination at the time, but a rather 244 00:13:46,290 --> 00:13:49,130 out of the way and random spot to end up. 245 00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:53,380 On many counts, you might conclude he was an unfortunate person. 246 00:13:53,510 --> 00:13:59,660 Clear indication that he was also In fact, this episode wasn't even half of it. 247 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,070 In his letter to the church in Corinth, he describes his glorious 248 00:14:04,070 --> 00:14:06,100 life of ministry in this way. 249 00:14:07,060 --> 00:14:10,640 Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 250 00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:13,270 Three times I was beaten with rods. 251 00:14:13,380 --> 00:14:14,920 Once I was pelted with stones. 252 00:14:15,020 --> 00:14:16,380 Three times I was shipwrecked. 253 00:14:16,640 --> 00:14:18,740 I spent a night and a day in the open sea. 254 00:14:19,380 --> 00:14:20,810 I've been constantly on the move. 255 00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:24,860 I've been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my 256 00:14:24,860 --> 00:14:28,710 fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles, in danger in the city, in danger 257 00:14:28,710 --> 00:14:33,760 in the country, in danger at sea, and in danger from false believers. 258 00:14:35,110 --> 00:14:36,180 I have laboured 259 00:14:48,760 --> 00:14:50,490 The Islanders didn't know all this. 260 00:14:50,830 --> 00:14:54,020 Seeing his misfortune of being bitten by a snake was enough for them to 261 00:14:54,510 --> 00:14:56,280 conclude he must be a bad person. 262 00:14:57,170 --> 00:14:58,480 Ironically, they were right. 263 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,510 Paul was a murderer. 264 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:06,990 It probably falls in our helpful It Depends category, as he thought he was 265 00:15:06,990 --> 00:15:11,190 doing it in God's name, and he didn't throw the fatal stone, but Stephen 266 00:15:11,190 --> 00:15:14,080 was killed with Paul's full support. 267 00:15:15,740 --> 00:15:19,670 Circumstance was not an uncommon approach to judging someone's morality. 268 00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:24,320 There's a story in Luke 13, where some people had been killed when 269 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:27,820 a tower collapsed, and some others killed by the Romans and desecrated 270 00:15:27,910 --> 00:15:31,160 after their death, with their blood mixed with a Roman sacrifice. 271 00:15:31,755 --> 00:15:34,915 And the crowd was assuming these people must have been really 272 00:15:34,915 --> 00:15:36,635 bad to have that happen to them. 273 00:15:37,935 --> 00:15:42,835 Again in John 9, his disciples asked Jesus whether the reason that a man 274 00:15:42,835 --> 00:15:45,945 was blind was because he was bad, i. 275 00:15:45,955 --> 00:15:45,975 e. 276 00:15:45,995 --> 00:15:47,045 it was his fault. 277 00:15:47,475 --> 00:15:49,925 Or whether it was because his parents had been bad. 278 00:15:50,480 --> 00:15:53,430 It's not unlike the idea of karma, where good and bad karma 279 00:15:53,430 --> 00:15:57,180 is accumulated through life, both affecting the future and, ultimately, 280 00:15:57,420 --> 00:15:59,630 the quality of your reincarnation. 281 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:05,340 Or is the Islamic belief that God will weigh our good and bad deeds at the 282 00:16:05,340 --> 00:16:10,330 end of our lives and make a decision about how deserving we are of heaven? 283 00:16:11,150 --> 00:16:12,264 What comes around? 284 00:16:14,725 --> 00:16:18,685 There are scriptures about the consequence of good and bad, but 285 00:16:18,685 --> 00:16:21,355 Jesus more often talks about fruit. 286 00:16:22,365 --> 00:16:26,395 First off, in the scenarios above, Jesus said no, what happens is 287 00:16:26,515 --> 00:16:28,215 not about people's morality. 288 00:16:28,215 --> 00:16:31,255 The guys that the tower fell on, it's nothing to do with 289 00:16:31,595 --> 00:16:32,805 whether they were bad or good. 290 00:16:33,205 --> 00:16:34,635 There's no karma at work. 291 00:16:35,785 --> 00:16:40,915 He says that the evidence of good or bad is not behaviour or consequence. 292 00:16:41,695 --> 00:16:46,915 But the heart, he accuses the ultra religious people with their 293 00:16:47,175 --> 00:16:51,625 meticulous attention to doing the right thing, keeping all the rules, 294 00:16:51,945 --> 00:16:53,735 he accuses them of being hypocrites. 295 00:16:54,425 --> 00:16:58,845 He says it's what's inside a person that makes them right or wrong. 296 00:16:59,275 --> 00:17:04,065 Jesus even calls out the world's accepted tit for tat view of morality 297 00:17:04,095 --> 00:17:08,135 as described in the Oxford research, the doing good so you get something. 298 00:17:08,895 --> 00:17:13,945 In Matthew 5, verse 38, he's recorded as saying, You've heard it said, an 299 00:17:14,015 --> 00:17:16,075 eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth. 300 00:17:16,305 --> 00:17:18,535 But I say, turn the other cheek. 301 00:17:19,315 --> 00:17:20,675 Go the extra mile. 302 00:17:21,155 --> 00:17:23,795 Do not resist anyone asking something from you. 303 00:17:25,445 --> 00:17:29,055 Further on in the same chapter, If you love those who love 304 00:17:29,055 --> 00:17:30,974 you, what reward do you get? 305 00:17:31,675 --> 00:17:35,865 If you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? 306 00:17:36,345 --> 00:17:38,235 Even the unbelievers do that. 307 00:17:40,535 --> 00:17:45,145 And in Luke 14, he tells someone hosting him to a meal, Don't just invite your 308 00:17:45,145 --> 00:17:47,195 friends, they'll invite you back. 309 00:17:47,435 --> 00:17:51,735 Invite the crippled, the poor, the blind, then you will be blessed. 310 00:17:52,635 --> 00:17:54,245 Although they cannot repay you. 311 00:17:54,585 --> 00:17:57,675 You'll be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous. 312 00:18:00,145 --> 00:18:05,665 He also says, when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand 313 00:18:05,715 --> 00:18:07,565 know what your right hand is doing. 314 00:18:07,755 --> 00:18:10,295 In other words, don't show off your good deeds. 315 00:18:11,135 --> 00:18:12,645 That's what Jesus said about it. 316 00:18:13,815 --> 00:18:17,365 We don't have in this story on Malta what Paul's response was to the islanders 317 00:18:17,365 --> 00:18:21,315 around the fire, but we do know he had spent the last years reflecting 318 00:18:21,315 --> 00:18:23,125 on and teaching the words of Jesus. 319 00:18:25,090 --> 00:18:28,720 We also have some examples of his writing and preaching, both here in Acts, but 320 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,020 also in the letters in the New Testament. 321 00:18:31,380 --> 00:18:35,965 In his letter to the church in Philippi, Philippians 3 verse 9. 322 00:18:36,685 --> 00:18:41,725 Paul describes actually that he was in Jewish terms pretty much the perfect soul. 323 00:18:42,055 --> 00:18:46,155 He was taught by the best teacher, he had a spotless record in terms of religious 324 00:18:46,155 --> 00:18:48,015 observance, he was from the right tribe. 325 00:18:48,645 --> 00:18:49,765 His conclusion? 326 00:18:50,425 --> 00:18:56,555 I count all of this as filthy rags compared with knowing Christ. 327 00:18:57,715 --> 00:19:01,285 In his letter to the church in Rome he writes very honestly, I 328 00:19:01,295 --> 00:19:03,965 have the desire to do what is good. 329 00:19:04,305 --> 00:19:05,985 But I cannot carry it out. 330 00:19:06,625 --> 00:19:12,045 I do not do the good that I want to do, but instead the evil I do not want to do. 331 00:19:12,945 --> 00:19:14,565 What a wretched man I am. 332 00:19:14,985 --> 00:19:16,785 Who will rescue me? 333 00:19:17,825 --> 00:19:19,415 Thanks be to God. 334 00:19:19,915 --> 00:19:21,475 I'm delivered through Jesus. 335 00:19:23,945 --> 00:19:28,035 Being good, and especially being considered good by others, 336 00:19:28,195 --> 00:19:29,785 didn't really register with Paul. 337 00:19:30,125 --> 00:19:34,265 So being a Christian, following Jesus, does not automatically 338 00:19:34,265 --> 00:19:35,395 make you a good person. 339 00:19:36,075 --> 00:19:40,675 Just as not following Jesus does not automatically make you a bad person. 340 00:19:41,135 --> 00:19:44,735 And I have to confess here that in my early days, I was 341 00:19:44,795 --> 00:19:46,645 arrogant enough to think that. 342 00:19:47,015 --> 00:19:50,445 That my whole rationale for saying people should follow Jesus was that was 343 00:19:50,445 --> 00:19:52,105 the only way they could become good. 344 00:19:52,585 --> 00:19:54,745 That the only way for any goodness to be in the world 345 00:19:54,745 --> 00:19:56,395 was if everyone followed Jesus. 346 00:19:58,005 --> 00:20:01,645 There are many Christian people that have brought a lot of good things to the world. 347 00:20:02,425 --> 00:20:04,675 And sadly, many that are brought bad. 348 00:20:06,655 --> 00:20:12,575 The point is, you can't always judge the state of someone's heart by behaviour 349 00:20:12,605 --> 00:20:15,425 and definitely not by circumstance. 350 00:20:16,675 --> 00:20:19,795 If your view of the Christian faith is that it represents good 351 00:20:19,835 --> 00:20:22,525 behaviour, that's quite a narrow view. 352 00:20:24,810 --> 00:20:25,730 So what is it about? 353 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:33,620 What allowed Paul, in a fairly desperate situation, to continue faithfully bringing 354 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:38,390 God's Word, serving people by praying for them, as we read in the passage, being a 355 00:20:38,410 --> 00:20:40,450 conduit of Jesus's power through healing. 356 00:20:44,050 --> 00:20:45,720 I believe it was God's grace. 357 00:20:47,190 --> 00:20:50,220 Just as he wrote in the letter to Rome, Paul is very 358 00:20:50,230 --> 00:20:52,170 familiar with his shortcomings. 359 00:20:53,020 --> 00:20:54,150 He knows he's a murderer. 360 00:20:55,170 --> 00:20:58,760 He knows he's caused pain and distress to many undeserving 361 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:00,730 people before he met Jesus. 362 00:21:01,770 --> 00:21:07,570 He's under no illusion what his behavioural credentials mean, but he also 363 00:21:07,570 --> 00:21:11,120 knows that God has declared him good. 364 00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:19,010 When he was honest before God what state his heart was in, he truly met with 365 00:21:19,010 --> 00:21:21,450 the one whose very nature is described. 366 00:21:23,790 --> 00:21:27,640 Paul's sense of being right with the world had nothing to do with 367 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,830 his unenviable circumstance. 368 00:21:30,610 --> 00:21:34,780 It had nothing to do with his self interested helping others 369 00:21:34,780 --> 00:21:36,210 so he could get some benefit. 370 00:21:36,940 --> 00:21:41,970 It had nothing to do with what anyone thought of him or his standing in society. 371 00:21:42,590 --> 00:21:45,520 It certainly had nothing to do with any wealth or possessions. 372 00:21:45,540 --> 00:21:47,620 He was a shipwrecked convict. 373 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:55,265 Paul's peace came from the knowledge that he who is ultimately good accepted him. 374 00:21:56,855 --> 00:22:02,685 He who is ultimately wise would see him through to the end of his service. 375 00:22:04,675 --> 00:22:10,705 He who is ultimately gracious would provide for his basic needs. 376 00:22:13,695 --> 00:22:18,225 I don't imagine he had much pride left, and yet he comes across as the most 377 00:22:18,255 --> 00:22:21,005 grounded individual in the whole saga. 378 00:22:21,875 --> 00:22:22,555 To finish. 379 00:22:23,565 --> 00:22:27,205 Judging people as good or bad God is not really a worthwhile enterprise. 380 00:22:28,705 --> 00:22:31,845 It's likely to be wrong in any way, missing the point. 381 00:22:33,315 --> 00:22:38,685 Jesus is not looking for good people to join his family, his church. 382 00:22:39,845 --> 00:22:44,935 He's looking for honest people that want to walk with him and learn. 383 00:22:46,725 --> 00:22:51,395 And if you are following Jesus, go beyond the norm and the expected. 384 00:22:52,145 --> 00:22:54,825 But remember, it's not some do gooder beauty contest. 385 00:22:56,525 --> 00:23:02,655 God Is good hanging around him and his people will rub off. 386 00:23:04,145 --> 00:23:09,755 Copying Jesus feels good and will bring good, but these are both happy 387 00:23:09,755 --> 00:23:15,435 byproducts of the joy and peace of knowing His grace and forgiveness. 388 00:23:16,795 --> 00:23:18,745 I don't believe they were meant to be the badge. 389 00:23:23,035 --> 00:23:24,355 Matt Edmundson: So welcome back. 390 00:23:24,355 --> 00:23:25,375 Just adjusting my microphone there. 391 00:23:26,285 --> 00:23:26,675 . Thanks. 392 00:23:26,675 --> 00:23:27,450 What a great talk. 393 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,580 Sharon Edmundson: So many different bits in that, I've written so many bits. 394 00:23:31,580 --> 00:23:32,600 He's such a legend, isn't 395 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:32,794 Matt Edmundson: he Will? 396 00:23:32,794 --> 00:23:34,441 Sharon Edmundson: I've got circling bits to go, oh, I could pick 397 00:23:34,441 --> 00:23:35,320 Matt Edmundson: up on that, or that one. 398 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:35,759 Yeah. 399 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:36,380 No, he's great. 400 00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:41,915 I love how he, how he just chats away and is very clear in the way that he thinks. 401 00:23:41,925 --> 00:23:42,735 So thanks, Will. 402 00:23:42,745 --> 00:23:43,475 Great talk. 403 00:23:43,745 --> 00:23:46,315 He was in a great looking studio as well when he was recording that talk. 404 00:23:46,595 --> 00:23:47,195 Amazing. 405 00:23:47,465 --> 00:23:48,195 It was a bit windy though. 406 00:23:48,275 --> 00:23:49,385 Did you hear the wind in the background? 407 00:23:49,795 --> 00:23:50,095 Okay. 408 00:23:50,095 --> 00:23:52,235 Maybe it was just me and my sensitive ears. 409 00:23:52,235 --> 00:23:54,295 I was very focused. 410 00:23:54,295 --> 00:23:55,225 So welcome back. 411 00:23:55,265 --> 00:23:58,885 If you've just joined us throughout the talk, warm welcome to Crowd Church. 412 00:23:58,885 --> 00:24:00,525 We're an online church beside me. 413 00:24:00,945 --> 00:24:01,925 Is my beautiful wife. 414 00:24:01,925 --> 00:24:02,565 My name is Matt. 415 00:24:02,575 --> 00:24:03,615 This is Sharon. 416 00:24:04,155 --> 00:24:04,525 Yeah. 417 00:24:04,525 --> 00:24:04,885 Yeah. 418 00:24:04,885 --> 00:24:06,215 And we're hosting tonight. 419 00:24:06,215 --> 00:24:07,615 We're going to get into Conversation Street. 420 00:24:07,615 --> 00:24:10,745 If you watched Will's talk, write your questions, write your comments, 421 00:24:10,745 --> 00:24:13,855 write your thoughts, your ideas, agree, disagree, and all that sort 422 00:24:13,855 --> 00:24:16,705 of good stuff in the comments, we're going to get through to those. 423 00:24:17,565 --> 00:24:21,125 And for those of you who did join us through Freya put in the comments, 424 00:24:21,345 --> 00:24:22,535 she's a first time listener. 425 00:24:22,545 --> 00:24:22,975 Welcome. 426 00:24:23,185 --> 00:24:24,314 Freya, it's great to have you. 427 00:24:24,345 --> 00:24:26,455 Got a bit lost due to the tech issues. 428 00:24:27,405 --> 00:24:29,325 So did we all sorry, I'm not going to lie. 429 00:24:29,325 --> 00:24:30,735 I'm often lost because 430 00:24:30,735 --> 00:24:31,035 Sharon Edmundson: of tech issues. 431 00:24:31,035 --> 00:24:36,475 I think I've said often I struggle with our TV, let alone anything like this. 432 00:24:38,895 --> 00:24:40,365 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, it's it's great to have you. 433 00:24:40,365 --> 00:24:43,475 What actually happened is we went live for two seconds and then the computer went, 434 00:24:43,525 --> 00:24:46,975 I'm not going live anymore, just stopped, threw up, at least it told us, yeah. 435 00:24:47,165 --> 00:24:49,655 Said we're not live, we're not going live anymore, are we? 436 00:24:49,655 --> 00:24:50,755 No, we're not going to do that. 437 00:24:50,765 --> 00:24:52,475 We had to scramble and figure it all out. 438 00:24:52,475 --> 00:24:55,375 And of course the problem with that is You'd already, we'd 439 00:24:55,375 --> 00:24:56,545 already given all the links out. 440 00:24:56,545 --> 00:24:59,305 I'm sorry that it took a little bit of time, but thanks for bearing with us. 441 00:24:59,315 --> 00:25:01,885 Thanks for sticking with it and joining in. 442 00:25:02,155 --> 00:25:02,865 Morality. 443 00:25:03,395 --> 00:25:03,805 Yeah. 444 00:25:04,205 --> 00:25:04,795 Sharon Edmundson: Good, bad. 445 00:25:04,795 --> 00:25:06,505 I was going to say, where do you want to start? 446 00:25:06,505 --> 00:25:06,735 Wrong. 447 00:25:06,765 --> 00:25:07,765 But you've gone right in there. 448 00:25:08,125 --> 00:25:08,625 Matt Edmundson: Deep end 449 00:25:08,625 --> 00:25:08,985 Sharon Edmundson: and all that. 450 00:25:08,985 --> 00:25:13,140 Yeah, I find the whole issue of morality, I've just dropped my pen. 451 00:25:13,140 --> 00:25:14,735 He's just twiddled his pen and dropped it. 452 00:25:16,085 --> 00:25:17,325 Matt Edmundson: I'll put it down, I'll stop playing. 453 00:25:18,185 --> 00:25:21,785 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, I just find the whole area of morality really interesting. 454 00:25:22,275 --> 00:25:30,205 In the past I've done a few courses around Christian apologetics, which is like being 455 00:25:30,205 --> 00:25:34,095 able to give a reason for your Christian faith, and it looks at many things, 456 00:25:34,095 --> 00:25:36,375 but morality is one of those things. 457 00:25:37,245 --> 00:25:40,915 And it's just really interesting because I think all of us agree 458 00:25:40,985 --> 00:25:42,865 that right and wrong exists. 459 00:25:42,915 --> 00:25:43,075 Yes. 460 00:25:43,075 --> 00:25:47,595 We might not agree what is right and wrong, but we all agree in the concept. 461 00:25:48,045 --> 00:25:52,175 And it's then there's the question, where do you get your morality from? 462 00:25:52,185 --> 00:25:57,605 Is it every individual decides for themselves what that is, or is it more 463 00:25:57,615 --> 00:26:02,645 of a group thing with perhaps some people deciding on behalf of the group, like 464 00:26:02,645 --> 00:26:08,540 with government, or is there something beyond people that decides as in Is there 465 00:26:08,540 --> 00:26:10,860 a God who decides what is right and wrong? 466 00:26:10,910 --> 00:26:11,180 Yeah. 467 00:26:11,390 --> 00:26:14,850 And just looking at kind of the problems with those first 468 00:26:14,850 --> 00:26:16,130 two things I've mentioned. 469 00:26:16,600 --> 00:26:18,510 Yeah, it's just, I find it 470 00:26:18,510 --> 00:26:19,010 Matt Edmundson: fascinating. 471 00:26:20,220 --> 00:26:22,380 And when she says she finds it fascinating, she really does. 472 00:26:23,890 --> 00:26:25,600 Sharon Edmundson: Been two in his ear on the way here about it. 473 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:26,039 And 474 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:27,570 Matt Edmundson: it was a great conversation and the kind of way 475 00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:29,490 we were like, we should totally save this for when we're on crowd 476 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:30,860 because it was a great conversation. 477 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:32,800 But it is an interesting one, isn't it? 478 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:33,420 Because you're right. 479 00:26:33,420 --> 00:26:34,300 I think if you. 480 00:26:35,950 --> 00:26:37,620 Where does morality come from? 481 00:26:37,620 --> 00:26:43,250 So if morality exists, and by morality, we mean the ability to 482 00:26:43,250 --> 00:26:44,550 choose between right and wrong. 483 00:26:44,860 --> 00:26:45,270 Or the 484 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:46,210 Sharon Edmundson: standard of right and 485 00:26:46,210 --> 00:26:46,480 Matt Edmundson: wrong. 486 00:26:47,080 --> 00:26:49,960 Or the standard of right and wrong, to make a standard, which is right and wrong. 487 00:26:51,940 --> 00:26:56,330 If that exists, then where does that come from? 488 00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,070 As in, who decides whether it's right or wrong? 489 00:27:01,270 --> 00:27:04,850 Sharon Edmundson: Because if it's like each individual person decides for 490 00:27:04,850 --> 00:27:09,730 themselves what's right and wrong, that actually doesn't work in the real world 491 00:27:09,750 --> 00:27:15,275 because I might decide that it's fine to Go to someone's house and steal all 492 00:27:15,275 --> 00:27:18,495 their stuff and they might be like hang on I don't agree with that, but it's 493 00:27:18,495 --> 00:27:19,995 it would be my word against theirs. 494 00:27:20,005 --> 00:27:23,825 It's I've decided, yeah, and even if you say you can do what you like, 495 00:27:23,825 --> 00:27:25,775 as long as it doesn't hurt anybody. 496 00:27:25,805 --> 00:27:29,405 It's but that's still your opinion that we shouldn't hurt anybody. 497 00:27:29,995 --> 00:27:32,075 Matt Edmundson: So that's still morality coming from you, isn't it? 498 00:27:32,165 --> 00:27:32,755 Yeah. 499 00:27:32,895 --> 00:27:36,065 Sharon Edmundson: And it just, I just don't think it's workable because. 500 00:27:37,415 --> 00:27:39,915 Yeah, we're just going to butt heads on a lot of 501 00:27:39,915 --> 00:27:40,325 Matt Edmundson: things. 502 00:27:40,685 --> 00:27:44,255 Which is what we're doing right now, really, on a global scale, isn't it? 503 00:27:44,255 --> 00:27:47,485 It's that kind of, no we've decided that democracy is right. 504 00:27:47,515 --> 00:27:49,165 And other people go no, democracy is not right. 505 00:27:49,165 --> 00:27:52,395 And there's a clash then of opinions of what is right. 506 00:27:52,395 --> 00:27:57,025 And so if morality is from self, then it can only ever be based on opinion. 507 00:27:57,705 --> 00:27:59,695 And that opinion then is subjective, isn't it? 508 00:27:59,985 --> 00:28:00,855 It's not objective. 509 00:28:00,855 --> 00:28:04,890 And it all becomes then a case of, like you say it's my 510 00:28:04,890 --> 00:28:06,270 opinion versus your opinion. 511 00:28:06,770 --> 00:28:09,700 Sharon Edmundson: And I think that even works in a group scenario. 512 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:15,955 Say if in this country we, like we have agreed that we elect a government and they 513 00:28:15,955 --> 00:28:17,955 make all the laws that we can input into. 514 00:28:19,515 --> 00:28:25,065 But it's still, it's the opinion of that group of people and we find the situation, 515 00:28:25,065 --> 00:28:28,115 don't we, where these laws get made and then other people are like hang on a 516 00:28:28,115 --> 00:28:33,505 minute, that's not right, not, and I don't think it's, sometimes it's people will 517 00:28:33,505 --> 00:28:38,135 think that's not right by my opinion, but other times it's that is just not right, 518 00:28:38,955 --> 00:28:40,835 not my opinion objectively not right. 519 00:28:40,875 --> 00:28:41,175 Yeah. 520 00:28:41,445 --> 00:28:44,635 But to have objective morality. 521 00:28:44,935 --> 00:28:46,245 You really need God. 522 00:28:46,465 --> 00:28:46,725 Yeah. 523 00:28:47,085 --> 00:28:54,165 So I personally, I think the existence of the fact that we know that there 524 00:28:54,165 --> 00:28:58,185 is such a thing as right and wrong points towards the existence of God. 525 00:28:58,315 --> 00:28:58,525 Yeah. 526 00:28:58,555 --> 00:29:01,555 I don't think it necessarily proves it, but it points in that direction. 527 00:29:01,565 --> 00:29:02,365 It points to the existence of God. 528 00:29:02,365 --> 00:29:05,985 One of the many bits of the puzzle that all work together, 529 00:29:06,035 --> 00:29:07,905 I think, to make a case for God. 530 00:29:08,135 --> 00:29:09,195 Yeah, absolutely. 531 00:29:09,455 --> 00:29:11,585 And there are, sorry, I was going to say there are people 532 00:29:11,675 --> 00:29:14,215 who explain this whole thing. 533 00:29:14,590 --> 00:29:18,830 Far better than me, who's spent A lot of time thinking and 534 00:29:19,690 --> 00:29:21,750 mulling it over and discussing. 535 00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:25,050 And yeah, there's lots of discussion and debate on that. 536 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:26,790 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, there really isn't it? 537 00:29:28,010 --> 00:29:31,440 The whole morality thing, and Will made reference to the fact, didn't 538 00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:36,190 he, that the best philosophers came up with some standards like you 539 00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:40,090 help family, you help the group, you reciprocate, which also means revenge. 540 00:29:40,830 --> 00:29:45,830 You be brave you respect superiors, you respect property and you divide 541 00:29:45,850 --> 00:29:51,320 resources, um, and then he summed it all up, basically saying behavior is 542 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:56,090 good as long as it benefits me, which I thought was really fascinating. 543 00:29:56,090 --> 00:29:59,780 So the best minds, the best philosophical minds have come up with these rules, 544 00:29:59,780 --> 00:30:05,120 which says we should help family, but again, where does that belief come from? 545 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:05,770 Because. 546 00:30:06,775 --> 00:30:08,675 That's a really interesting question, isn't it? 547 00:30:08,675 --> 00:30:10,425 Like we should help the group. 548 00:30:10,575 --> 00:30:11,985 Where does that come from? 549 00:30:11,985 --> 00:30:14,975 And again, if that comes from an individual, then it's 550 00:30:14,975 --> 00:30:16,235 all on the basis of opinion. 551 00:30:16,235 --> 00:30:20,115 If it comes from a group there's group opinion, and we were talking about 552 00:30:20,115 --> 00:30:21,695 this on the way down, weren't we? 553 00:30:21,695 --> 00:30:25,495 That actually, if we're going to say that morality is based 554 00:30:25,685 --> 00:30:31,485 on the general consensus, so as a country So we're in the UK. 555 00:30:31,485 --> 00:30:34,075 I don't know whereabouts in the world you are watching this, but we're in the UK. 556 00:30:34,075 --> 00:30:38,575 So in the UK, there is a law which says, well, you basically shouldn't, 557 00:30:38,635 --> 00:30:40,655 go and kill people willy nilly, right? 558 00:30:41,675 --> 00:30:45,185 I don't think that's the exact wording of the law. 559 00:30:47,725 --> 00:30:52,435 But you get the point and so that's a really interesting thing, isn't it? 560 00:30:52,775 --> 00:30:56,840 And we say well that's enshrined in law because Collectively, as a group of 561 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,720 people, we've gone, yeah, that's right, you shouldn't kill people willy nilly. 562 00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:07,110 But if collective opinion is the basis for morality, then what about those 563 00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:11,650 nations that make rules and laws which are different to my personal opinion? 564 00:31:12,550 --> 00:31:15,170 And you can take this to extremes, can't you, to illustrate the point. 565 00:31:15,180 --> 00:31:18,568 So we were talking about things like, I probably shouldn't say it on air, 566 00:31:18,568 --> 00:31:21,535 actually, just thinking it through what we were talking about in the car. 567 00:31:21,535 --> 00:31:25,071 But there are certain things that certain nations will do to their people. 568 00:31:25,491 --> 00:31:29,151 But that's okay, because it's collective opinion, therefore 569 00:31:29,151 --> 00:31:30,231 it's collective morality. 570 00:31:30,231 --> 00:31:33,501 Whereas I look at that and go, No, in fact, I will campaign 571 00:31:33,501 --> 00:31:34,741 against things like that. 572 00:31:35,201 --> 00:31:40,371 And I will probably financially support institutions that stop things like that. 573 00:31:40,371 --> 00:31:42,291 Again, we fall under the same problem, don't we? 574 00:31:43,066 --> 00:31:46,836 That actually objective morality is just the same as a sorry, 575 00:31:47,416 --> 00:31:50,616 collective morality is in effect a collective opinion, but it's still 576 00:31:50,616 --> 00:31:52,536 an opinion and it's still subjective. 577 00:31:52,536 --> 00:31:56,006 It's still based on what you think and what I think, and if we think 578 00:31:56,006 --> 00:31:58,866 differently to each other, then who's to say who's right and who's wrong? 579 00:31:59,626 --> 00:32:02,206 So going back to your example, if I, if we break into your house, 580 00:32:02,206 --> 00:32:03,316 who's to say that we're wrong? 581 00:32:03,996 --> 00:32:07,996 There's laws, yeah, but that doesn't mean that they're moral or, even if 582 00:32:07,996 --> 00:32:11,506 they are moral, where's that come from, so it's, it becomes quite a complex 583 00:32:11,506 --> 00:32:17,026 question, doesn't it it is, Andy put in the comments that morality can make 584 00:32:17,056 --> 00:32:21,866 people think that they're not that bad when all of us have missed the mark. 585 00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:24,826 Agree or disagree? 586 00:32:26,246 --> 00:32:26,896 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, I guess it. 587 00:32:28,211 --> 00:32:28,671 Sorry, say that 588 00:32:28,671 --> 00:32:28,961 Matt Edmundson: again. 589 00:32:30,481 --> 00:32:31,331 Listen, are you listening now? 590 00:32:31,331 --> 00:32:33,181 I am listening now. 591 00:32:33,181 --> 00:32:36,811 Morality can make people think that they're not that bad when 592 00:32:36,841 --> 00:32:38,351 all of us have missed the mark. 593 00:32:38,421 --> 00:32:39,421 I can put it on there. 594 00:32:39,421 --> 00:32:40,401 There we go, I can do that. 595 00:32:41,361 --> 00:32:45,381 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, I think it can be very easy to compare ourselves to 596 00:32:45,471 --> 00:32:49,741 other people or to like the broader laws like I've not murdered anyone. 597 00:32:50,001 --> 00:32:50,271 Yeah. 598 00:32:50,281 --> 00:32:51,401 I've not stolen anyone. 599 00:32:51,401 --> 00:32:54,606 I've not ended up in prison, therefore, I'm a good person. 600 00:32:54,606 --> 00:32:57,456 I'm not as bad as that person that I see over there. 601 00:32:58,276 --> 00:33:04,396 So yeah, I think it can make us think like that, but it's it's what 602 00:33:04,396 --> 00:33:05,786 do we use as our standard, isn't it? 603 00:33:05,786 --> 00:33:13,046 If we use God and his awesomeness as our standard, then I think we start 604 00:33:13,056 --> 00:33:14,756 to see ourselves in a different light. 605 00:33:14,856 --> 00:33:17,076 I've definitely had that experience where. 606 00:33:17,961 --> 00:33:22,431 Specific times over the years where I've gotten closer to God and it's 607 00:33:22,431 --> 00:33:26,701 that's a good thing, but at the same time, it shines a light on your 608 00:33:26,701 --> 00:33:31,621 motives and those little things which wouldn't really get picked up anywhere. 609 00:33:31,641 --> 00:33:35,151 Like you can look from the outside and go, Oh, doing the right thing. 610 00:33:35,701 --> 00:33:40,241 But actually it's like Will touched on, it's about the heart and where our 611 00:33:40,331 --> 00:33:42,301 hearts are, why we're doing those things. 612 00:33:43,096 --> 00:33:46,386 Because you can have two people doing the same thing. 613 00:33:46,386 --> 00:33:50,606 So you could have maybe two people raising money for a charity. 614 00:33:50,866 --> 00:33:54,946 One of them, it can be purely to make themselves look good in front of 615 00:33:54,946 --> 00:33:59,606 other people and to make themselves feel like they are a good person. 616 00:34:00,066 --> 00:34:03,996 Someone else, it might be because they genuinely love the people 617 00:34:03,996 --> 00:34:05,746 they're trying to raise the money for. 618 00:34:06,391 --> 00:34:10,011 So it's like the same action, but a completely different heart 619 00:34:10,361 --> 00:34:10,671 Matt Edmundson: place. 620 00:34:11,221 --> 00:34:13,611 So you can do the right thing for the wrong reason. 621 00:34:13,701 --> 00:34:14,771 Yeah, I think so. 622 00:34:15,021 --> 00:34:17,711 And you can, do the wrong thing for the right reason. 623 00:34:17,831 --> 00:34:20,691 But again, this comes, we're now starting to get into philosophical 624 00:34:20,691 --> 00:34:21,471 arguments again, aren't we? 625 00:34:21,471 --> 00:34:24,541 In the sense that I think you're right, Andy. 626 00:34:24,541 --> 00:34:31,061 Coming back to what you said, I think it's right that it's easy for because I think 627 00:34:31,061 --> 00:34:33,701 it's hard to define morality without God. 628 00:34:33,701 --> 00:34:35,521 I don't know if it's impossible. 629 00:34:35,521 --> 00:34:36,471 I think it's quite difficult. 630 00:34:36,551 --> 00:34:39,541 I've, I have thought about it and I'm not quite sure how I 631 00:34:39,541 --> 00:34:41,751 would get to a morality argument. 632 00:34:42,291 --> 00:34:46,981 So what tends to happen that if you think about morality in the absence 633 00:34:47,101 --> 00:34:52,391 of God, then you start to think about morality in terms of a sliding scale. 634 00:34:54,161 --> 00:34:55,641 You're relatively moral. 635 00:34:56,431 --> 00:34:58,391 So I might not be totally pure. 636 00:34:58,391 --> 00:34:59,926 We've all done bad things. 637 00:34:59,926 --> 00:35:02,131 We've all done things that we regret. 638 00:35:02,131 --> 00:35:03,581 We all done things we shouldn't have done. 639 00:35:03,581 --> 00:35:05,061 We've all said things we shouldn't have done. 640 00:35:05,061 --> 00:35:05,891 None of us are perfect. 641 00:35:05,901 --> 00:35:07,361 We'll all agree and attest to that. 642 00:35:08,501 --> 00:35:10,551 But like you said, you start to think about it. 643 00:35:10,601 --> 00:35:14,581 I'm not as bad as that person over there because I'm I've not killed anybody. 644 00:35:14,861 --> 00:35:15,741 I've not done this. 645 00:35:15,741 --> 00:35:18,391 I'm not as bad as Putin, because I'm not, evil. 646 00:35:18,391 --> 00:35:22,491 I'm not as bad as this person over here, because I'm not, whatever. 647 00:35:23,191 --> 00:35:30,191 And so we then start to measure our morality against people that 648 00:35:30,201 --> 00:35:32,881 inevitably are worse than us to make ourselves feel better. 649 00:35:32,951 --> 00:35:33,281 Yeah. 650 00:35:34,261 --> 00:35:38,661 We don't tend to like to get around people that are more moral people 651 00:35:38,661 --> 00:35:41,271 than we are, I don't think, because we then start to feel a little bit 652 00:35:41,271 --> 00:35:43,211 better about our own behaviour. 653 00:35:43,211 --> 00:35:47,321 But we're very good at judging our behaviour against people who we deem 654 00:35:47,321 --> 00:35:49,951 to be less moral than us, I think. 655 00:35:50,701 --> 00:35:54,401 And we look to them to justify how we're living life. 656 00:35:55,021 --> 00:35:59,246 And so the classic example of this is the guy and you see it in the 657 00:35:59,246 --> 00:36:00,176 movies all the time, don't you? 658 00:36:00,176 --> 00:36:01,676 There's a guy zooming down the road. 659 00:36:01,676 --> 00:36:03,736 He gets pulled over by the policeman for speeding. 660 00:36:03,736 --> 00:36:07,996 And the guy says to the policeman, why are you stopping me? 661 00:36:07,996 --> 00:36:09,366 I'm a law abiding citizen. 662 00:36:09,366 --> 00:36:13,296 Surely you should be spending your time tracking down the murderers in the city. 663 00:36:14,086 --> 00:36:15,706 In other words, not acknowledging. 664 00:36:16,481 --> 00:36:19,391 It's acknowledged, yeah, chaos speeding, but surely there's more important 665 00:36:19,401 --> 00:36:22,251 things for you to worry about than me, because this is a very minor crime 666 00:36:22,251 --> 00:36:24,011 versus the very major crimes over there. 667 00:36:24,011 --> 00:36:25,801 You need to think about that, right? 668 00:36:26,401 --> 00:36:28,891 And so again, morality becomes relative. 669 00:36:28,891 --> 00:36:35,661 And so I agree with you, Andy, and I think in the absence of God, 670 00:36:36,641 --> 00:36:39,531 it's a slippery slope downward. 671 00:36:41,076 --> 00:36:43,426 Sharon Edmundson: I just want to say here, what we're not saying is 672 00:36:43,476 --> 00:36:48,836 that if people don't have faith that they can't be moral, because yes, as 673 00:36:48,836 --> 00:36:52,856 Christians, we believe that everybody has that sense of right and wrong. 674 00:36:52,866 --> 00:36:53,716 And yeah, body. 675 00:36:54,646 --> 00:36:55,906 Will said, actually, didn't he? 676 00:36:55,916 --> 00:37:00,496 Yeah, there are some people who don't believe in God who 677 00:37:00,496 --> 00:37:02,516 do amazingly fabulous things. 678 00:37:02,516 --> 00:37:06,216 And there are some people who claim to follow God who do awful things. 679 00:37:06,276 --> 00:37:06,296 Yeah. 680 00:37:07,421 --> 00:37:09,741 Yeah, we've still got that choice into 681 00:37:09,901 --> 00:37:10,441 Matt Edmundson: whether we do that. 682 00:37:10,671 --> 00:37:12,391 Yeah, again, that's something we were talking about, wasn't it? 683 00:37:12,401 --> 00:37:18,601 So if we would say that morality points to the existence of God, which we 684 00:37:18,601 --> 00:37:23,251 would argue it probably does, then why is it people that proclaim the name 685 00:37:23,251 --> 00:37:27,241 of God are some of the most immoral people on the planet, and do the most 686 00:37:27,241 --> 00:37:35,036 horrendous, atrocious acts to groups of people, to individuals, to Gender. 687 00:37:35,236 --> 00:37:38,526 It's just, and it's a fascinating question, isn't it? 688 00:37:38,526 --> 00:37:43,616 But again, you come back to the fact that I suppose, just because God is 689 00:37:43,676 --> 00:37:52,366 a true and moral God, but nobody else is, including the people that proclaim 690 00:37:52,366 --> 00:37:53,896 his name and do horrific acts in them. 691 00:37:53,946 --> 00:37:57,566 I don't think the Christian, we're not saying that Christians or other 692 00:37:57,566 --> 00:38:00,436 religions have the monopoly on morality. 693 00:38:00,701 --> 00:38:06,811 I think probably where the Christian faith thinks a little bit differently here, to 694 00:38:06,811 --> 00:38:12,401 say the Muslim faith, which we'll touch on, is that I think as Christians we 695 00:38:12,401 --> 00:38:20,031 go, there is a morality, there is a law, which is from God, there is right, there 696 00:38:20,031 --> 00:38:21,931 is wrong, there is good, there is bad. 697 00:38:22,721 --> 00:38:26,881 We have all broken it, so we're all collectively responsible, none of us 698 00:38:26,881 --> 00:38:31,036 have perfect for the exception of one person, which we would say was Christ. 699 00:38:31,956 --> 00:38:35,426 And so therefore we all have to come to God. 700 00:38:36,226 --> 00:38:40,836 And I love what Will was saying about that in terms of when he was talking 701 00:38:40,836 --> 00:38:47,076 about Paul, how when Paul came to God, he was a religious fanatic who 702 00:38:47,086 --> 00:38:50,116 had taken the word of God, twisted it to mean something that it wasn't. 703 00:38:50,956 --> 00:38:52,836 and made him a murderer. 704 00:38:53,416 --> 00:38:54,506 Sounds familiar, right? 705 00:38:55,046 --> 00:38:59,736 Made him a murderer and he bought that and all his shame and everything before God. 706 00:39:00,356 --> 00:39:05,756 And yet God in the midst of all of that issued forgiveness which 707 00:39:05,756 --> 00:39:09,866 then made him good and righteous. 708 00:39:09,896 --> 00:39:10,586 Yeah, I think we'd 709 00:39:10,586 --> 00:39:12,536 Sharon Edmundson: probably use the word righteous, wouldn't we, in 710 00:39:12,776 --> 00:39:15,646 terms of he, as in right with God. 711 00:39:16,096 --> 00:39:18,166 It's like God that he forgives. 712 00:39:19,516 --> 00:39:23,396 All the stuff that we've done when we come to Him and gives us a good clean up. 713 00:39:25,456 --> 00:39:27,856 Matt Edmundson: A bit like my car needs in the MOT. 714 00:39:28,166 --> 00:39:29,926 We're going to talk more about righteousness, actually, not 715 00:39:29,936 --> 00:39:31,326 next week, but the week after. 716 00:39:31,566 --> 00:39:34,246 So we're going to get into this topic a little bit because we are 717 00:39:34,276 --> 00:39:37,056 beginning our series on becoming whole. 718 00:39:37,056 --> 00:39:38,656 What does it mean to become whole? 719 00:39:39,136 --> 00:39:43,356 And actually, this is a good little segue because like Paul, who had to 720 00:39:43,356 --> 00:39:45,536 come to Christ to get the forgiveness. 721 00:39:46,051 --> 00:39:50,531 As we all do, because again of this morality thing, so he had to come to 722 00:39:50,531 --> 00:39:54,031 Christ to get forgiveness as we all do, one of the things that happens in 723 00:39:54,031 --> 00:39:58,451 that whole conversation is this idea of righteousness that actually in the 724 00:39:58,451 --> 00:40:02,696 midst of that, When we come to God, he makes us righteous, which as you said, 725 00:40:02,696 --> 00:40:04,906 means to be in right standing with God. 726 00:40:05,806 --> 00:40:08,446 That's the foundation of wholeness. 727 00:40:08,546 --> 00:40:10,826 So if we want to be whole as people, and what does it mean 728 00:40:10,826 --> 00:40:12,236 to become whole as Christians? 729 00:40:12,666 --> 00:40:14,106 We have to first start with righteousness. 730 00:40:14,116 --> 00:40:16,906 So we're going to touch on that in two weeks time when we kickstart our new 731 00:40:16,906 --> 00:40:17,416 Sharon Edmundson: series. 732 00:40:17,756 --> 00:40:22,226 We're also in that covering Fruits of the Spirit, which Will also touched 733 00:40:22,226 --> 00:40:27,096 on when he talks about Jesus, talks about fruit rather than looking at 734 00:40:27,116 --> 00:40:28,946 the circumstances of our life too. 735 00:40:31,271 --> 00:40:34,221 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, and that's another interesting point, actually, in the Old 736 00:40:34,221 --> 00:40:39,011 Testament, and in the New Testament, you have in ancient times, when there 737 00:40:39,011 --> 00:40:42,261 was less knowledge, whatever that means, when they didn't have the scientific 738 00:40:42,261 --> 00:40:46,121 enlightenment, I suppose that we would say we have now, they would say that 739 00:40:46,121 --> 00:40:49,271 if something bad happened, it's because maybe God was mad at you, or there was 740 00:40:49,271 --> 00:40:50,941 sin, or there was some reason for it. 741 00:40:52,371 --> 00:40:56,901 Fast forward 2000 years, when something bad happens to us, We don't automatically 742 00:40:56,901 --> 00:40:58,801 say, Oh, that's because God's mad at you. 743 00:40:59,421 --> 00:41:02,811 But I still think there's that thinking which says, Oh, 744 00:41:02,911 --> 00:41:04,501 I, this has happened to me. 745 00:41:04,501 --> 00:41:06,651 What did I do to cause that to happen? 746 00:41:06,651 --> 00:41:07,651 Why does that happen to me? 747 00:41:07,651 --> 00:41:09,361 There's almost I live a good life. 748 00:41:09,541 --> 00:41:10,931 Why would this happen to me? 749 00:41:10,991 --> 00:41:14,971 Why would a bad thing happen to a morally good person, whatever that means? 750 00:41:14,971 --> 00:41:19,026 And even though I think we are We have a lot more education, 751 00:41:19,036 --> 00:41:19,946 a lot more knowledge now. 752 00:41:20,136 --> 00:41:26,716 There is still this sort of default thinking which says, Actually, because 753 00:41:26,716 --> 00:41:29,976 I'm okay, I'm a good person, good things inherently should happen to me. 754 00:41:30,926 --> 00:41:33,556 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, I think if we look at the Bible, that bad 755 00:41:33,556 --> 00:41:36,176 things happen for different reasons. 756 00:41:37,126 --> 00:41:41,436 Sometimes bad things happen, do happen because we've made silly choices. 757 00:41:41,736 --> 00:41:48,006 For example, If I decide to eat junk all day, every day, and not do 758 00:41:48,006 --> 00:41:52,426 any exercise I'm going to get ill, that's because of my poor choices. 759 00:41:53,146 --> 00:41:57,816 And then there are other times like we've seen with that massive list that Will gave 760 00:41:57,816 --> 00:41:59,396 of all the things that happened to Paul. 761 00:41:59,456 --> 00:42:00,806 What a great advert for ministry. 762 00:42:00,806 --> 00:42:03,976 Matt Edmundson: Those 763 00:42:03,976 --> 00:42:07,636 Sharon Edmundson: things didn't happen to Paul because of bad choices. 764 00:42:07,636 --> 00:42:11,566 They happened because he was actually following God, doing 765 00:42:11,736 --> 00:42:12,916 what God asked him to do. 766 00:42:12,916 --> 00:42:17,426 And it was just like The Bible does talk about how we're in a spiritual battle. 767 00:42:17,436 --> 00:42:21,036 So if we're following God, we are going to have these forces that 768 00:42:21,036 --> 00:42:22,856 come against us from time to time. 769 00:42:23,036 --> 00:42:26,266 With Paul, it sounded like it was on a fairly regular basis. 770 00:42:26,776 --> 00:42:31,866 And other times stuff just bad stuff just happens because we're in a broken world. 771 00:42:32,346 --> 00:42:35,536 And it's not necessarily because we're completely in the right place 772 00:42:35,576 --> 00:42:37,486 or because we've done stuff wrong. 773 00:42:37,496 --> 00:42:37,996 It's just. 774 00:42:40,906 --> 00:42:43,056 Matt Edmundson: And I think it's quite hard to accept that because quite often 775 00:42:43,056 --> 00:42:44,356 we're looking for somebody to blame. 776 00:42:45,306 --> 00:42:47,716 And we're looking we're looking for a reason, usually because 777 00:42:47,716 --> 00:42:48,766 we want to blame somebody. 778 00:42:49,006 --> 00:42:53,566 And I remember when I had my accident on my hand, do you remember this? 779 00:42:54,716 --> 00:42:57,663 And I decided to cut three of my fingers off because, yeah, 780 00:42:57,663 --> 00:42:59,626 they've seen this before. 781 00:42:59,816 --> 00:43:00,536 A little stumpy one. 782 00:43:00,536 --> 00:43:00,956 A little stump. 783 00:43:01,976 --> 00:43:07,836 So what, 20 years ago now, 19, 20 years ago I decided to cut three of my fingers 784 00:43:07,836 --> 00:43:11,056 off with a table saw because frankly, I had nothing better to do that afternoon, 785 00:43:11,096 --> 00:43:16,126 obviously, but I won't, but I won't go into the gory details because I'm 786 00:43:16,126 --> 00:43:22,216 aware it's pre watershed but I remember going into hospital, I remember saying 787 00:43:22,216 --> 00:43:29,876 to the doctor as I went in Listen, guys, I don't want you to take any of 788 00:43:29,876 --> 00:43:31,766 my fingers off without my permission. 789 00:43:32,276 --> 00:43:33,416 This was when you were going into surgery? 790 00:43:33,456 --> 00:43:34,536 This would be pre surgery. 791 00:43:34,536 --> 00:43:34,706 Yeah. 792 00:43:34,706 --> 00:43:37,586 And bearing in mind, I cut them off and I was just expecting them to sew them 793 00:43:37,586 --> 00:43:41,426 all on and to fix it all up and work their magic because, I was a Christian. 794 00:43:41,426 --> 00:43:42,786 I prayed and good things happen to Christians. 795 00:43:42,786 --> 00:43:48,086 Without being too flippant, obviously, and I remember waking up and obviously 796 00:43:48,086 --> 00:43:49,546 part of my finger was missing. 797 00:43:49,601 --> 00:43:56,161 And I could look at that and I could go, I wanted to blame the surgeon for 798 00:43:56,161 --> 00:43:58,131 that because I told him not to do that. 799 00:43:58,171 --> 00:44:01,311 I told him not to take any part of my fingers off without my 800 00:44:01,861 --> 00:44:03,431 consent, without my permission. 801 00:44:03,431 --> 00:44:05,831 And they were just going in for an exploratory surgery. 802 00:44:05,831 --> 00:44:09,061 They, I didn't give them permission to do it and they did it anyway. 803 00:44:09,771 --> 00:44:13,221 And so for a little while I had to wrestle with that because. 804 00:44:13,671 --> 00:44:15,091 I wanted to blame somebody. 805 00:44:15,091 --> 00:44:16,231 I wanted to blame that surgeon. 806 00:44:16,231 --> 00:44:19,201 I didn't want to thank him for saving the other two and a half fingers. 807 00:44:20,871 --> 00:44:24,251 I wanted to be mad and angry and I wanted my pound of flesh. 808 00:44:24,251 --> 00:44:31,951 And I think sometimes or quite often, actually, we want to blame people. 809 00:44:31,961 --> 00:44:33,541 We want to blame something. 810 00:44:35,961 --> 00:44:39,991 When actually there's not necessarily anyone to blame it, just it is what it is. 811 00:44:39,991 --> 00:44:41,571 I could look at that and go, actually the reason I was in 812 00:44:41,581 --> 00:44:44,221 hospital because I was stupid because I took the guard off the saw. 813 00:44:45,051 --> 00:44:47,591 It was a stupid action, but I was doing something good. 814 00:44:47,591 --> 00:44:50,351 I was volunteering to build a kitchen for a friend of mine. 815 00:44:50,351 --> 00:44:51,651 And I could go back and forth. 816 00:44:51,651 --> 00:44:55,371 I was, there's reasons why it happened and it happened because it happened. 817 00:44:56,141 --> 00:44:56,571 Do you know what I mean? 818 00:44:56,571 --> 00:44:58,201 And trying to blame somebody. 819 00:44:58,211 --> 00:44:58,721 Key decision 820 00:44:58,721 --> 00:45:00,451 Sharon Edmundson: to take the guard off. 821 00:45:00,471 --> 00:45:01,381 Yeah, that was a bit stupid. 822 00:45:02,121 --> 00:45:02,911 I was not impressed. 823 00:45:03,371 --> 00:45:04,441 Matt Edmundson: No, I had to get into trouble. 824 00:45:04,451 --> 00:45:06,491 I did have to ask forgiveness for this little thing. 825 00:45:07,401 --> 00:45:11,641 But I guess my point here is, sometimes when things happen, they just happen. 826 00:45:12,201 --> 00:45:15,631 And I think it's one of the hardest things to get your head around, because we want 827 00:45:15,641 --> 00:45:19,431 to blame something or somebody, even if it's ourself, people get diagnosed 828 00:45:19,451 --> 00:45:20,881 with cancer, we start to look inwards. 829 00:45:20,881 --> 00:45:21,661 I didn't smoke. 830 00:45:21,661 --> 00:45:22,886 Transcribed I didn't drink. 831 00:45:22,896 --> 00:45:23,596 I drank a little bit. 832 00:45:23,616 --> 00:45:24,506 Is that what caused it? 833 00:45:24,516 --> 00:45:27,466 And we're always, we're looking for answers, which we don't 834 00:45:27,486 --> 00:45:30,156 necessarily have the ability to find. 835 00:45:31,406 --> 00:45:34,366 But I think in the midst of those things, what Paul teaches is bad 836 00:45:34,366 --> 00:45:35,746 things happen to good people. 837 00:45:36,966 --> 00:45:39,086 But God's still God in the middle of it. 838 00:45:39,096 --> 00:45:41,596 And we can still trust him, even when we don't have the answers. 839 00:45:41,996 --> 00:45:43,196 I think that would be a fair thing to say. 840 00:45:44,406 --> 00:45:44,646 Yeah. 841 00:45:45,356 --> 00:45:46,496 Anything else on your little note? 842 00:45:46,536 --> 00:45:47,226 I was just 843 00:45:47,226 --> 00:45:48,306 Sharon Edmundson: looking to see. 844 00:45:52,571 --> 00:45:56,551 We've covered it a little bit, but the whole issue of the heart, 845 00:45:56,961 --> 00:46:00,011 I did think was interesting. 846 00:46:01,341 --> 00:46:02,271 We have covered that, haven't we? 847 00:46:02,311 --> 00:46:02,681 Okay. 848 00:46:03,061 --> 00:46:03,571 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 849 00:46:04,021 --> 00:46:05,311 What's going on in the comments? 850 00:46:05,591 --> 00:46:06,621 Crew's in the comments. 851 00:46:06,661 --> 00:46:08,391 Tech issues are part and parcel of crowd. 852 00:46:08,401 --> 00:46:08,961 Yes, they are. 853 00:46:11,696 --> 00:46:14,996 He chops his hand into bits because he's a, I think you're 854 00:46:15,006 --> 00:46:16,546 trying to say plonker there, Matt. 855 00:46:16,576 --> 00:46:17,436 I'm not entirely sure. 856 00:46:18,126 --> 00:46:18,856 Dan's in the comments. 857 00:46:18,856 --> 00:46:22,926 Hey, Dan, Freya says, I'm so thankful that God doesn't shine 858 00:46:22,926 --> 00:46:25,126 a light on all of our failings. 859 00:46:25,126 --> 00:46:29,456 At the same time, he shows us bits and pieces, or bite sized pieces. 860 00:46:29,456 --> 00:46:29,716 Sorry. 861 00:46:29,736 --> 00:46:31,576 So we have a chance to fix the issues. 862 00:46:32,716 --> 00:46:33,316 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah. 863 00:46:33,781 --> 00:46:35,031 Yeah, I definitely agree. 864 00:46:35,031 --> 00:46:40,061 I think the Bible talks so much about God being for us and not against us. 865 00:46:40,061 --> 00:46:45,481 I think quite often people have got this image of God just waiting for them to trip 866 00:46:45,481 --> 00:46:50,791 up so they can like yeah, like just have a go at us and whatever, but the Bible 867 00:46:50,791 --> 00:46:53,041 paints a very different picture to that. 868 00:46:53,091 --> 00:46:54,951 Obviously he does want us to live right. 869 00:46:54,951 --> 00:46:56,731 He wants our hearts to be for him. 870 00:46:56,731 --> 00:46:58,211 He wants us to treat other people right. 871 00:46:58,211 --> 00:46:59,391 But it's not because. 872 00:47:00,061 --> 00:47:03,781 He's horrible and wants to spoil our fun. 873 00:47:03,781 --> 00:47:07,291 It's because he's made us to thrive in a certain way. 874 00:47:07,301 --> 00:47:09,181 Yeah, his kingdom. 875 00:47:09,391 --> 00:47:12,711 It's about love and goodness. 876 00:47:12,761 --> 00:47:16,091 And so all the things that he says, it's it. 877 00:47:16,101 --> 00:47:19,891 It is for our good, but it's out of that love. 878 00:47:20,141 --> 00:47:25,051 And I think like Freya says, when he does show us stuff, he shows us what. 879 00:47:25,681 --> 00:47:29,581 He wants us to deal with at that point to bring us to wholeness and 880 00:47:29,591 --> 00:47:33,711 bring us into more relationship with him, not so that he can punish us 881 00:47:33,711 --> 00:47:35,541 and stick us in a corner somewhere. 882 00:47:35,871 --> 00:47:36,181 Yeah. 883 00:47:36,321 --> 00:47:36,571 Yeah. 884 00:47:36,591 --> 00:47:37,491 Matt Edmundson: Yeah, I totally agree. 885 00:47:37,881 --> 00:47:42,781 Totally agree Was the storm caused by Sharon's gust of anger? 886 00:47:43,651 --> 00:47:45,621 Oh, this must be referring to when I cut my fingers off. 887 00:47:45,921 --> 00:47:48,141 I didn't know maybe there wasn't a storm back then I don't know 888 00:47:52,061 --> 00:47:52,881 Sharon Edmundson: video from Will, 889 00:47:53,011 --> 00:47:53,411 Matt Edmundson: not sure. 890 00:47:53,701 --> 00:47:55,211 Or maybe, who knows? 891 00:47:55,421 --> 00:47:55,831 I don't think so. 892 00:47:55,921 --> 00:47:57,611 I think the answer is no, Matt, to your question. 893 00:48:01,031 --> 00:48:02,411 But thanks for asking, dude. 894 00:48:02,421 --> 00:48:03,021 Appreciate it. 895 00:48:03,471 --> 00:48:08,601 So yes, morality, one of those fascinating questions around Christianity, around 896 00:48:08,601 --> 00:48:14,491 faith around the existence of God, that it's a very complex question. 897 00:48:14,511 --> 00:48:15,161 And I love it. 898 00:48:15,161 --> 00:48:18,656 I love talking about it because it's For us, like we say, it points to God 899 00:48:18,656 --> 00:48:20,366 and morality is one of those things. 900 00:48:20,366 --> 00:48:25,466 I, if God doesn't exist, I don't understand how there is morality, 901 00:48:25,776 --> 00:48:27,646 especially given, Darwinism. 902 00:48:27,676 --> 00:48:28,466 Objective morality. 903 00:48:28,586 --> 00:48:29,326 Objective morality. 904 00:48:29,336 --> 00:48:29,566 Yeah. 905 00:48:29,566 --> 00:48:35,986 Especially given Darwinism, which would be at odds, I feel. 906 00:48:36,556 --> 00:48:37,246 Maybe I'm wrong. 907 00:48:37,256 --> 00:48:38,416 Maybe someone's going to tell me I'm wrong. 908 00:48:38,426 --> 00:48:40,916 But I, anyway, what do you think about it? 909 00:48:40,916 --> 00:48:41,446 Morality. 910 00:48:41,446 --> 00:48:42,636 Get involved in the discussion. 911 00:48:43,676 --> 00:48:45,366 It's been a great conversation. 912 00:48:45,376 --> 00:48:50,906 What's happening next week is, the question, Crew is back, so I'm 913 00:48:50,906 --> 00:48:51,906 going to keep up with this now. 914 00:48:51,906 --> 00:48:54,796 So next week, are we finally at the end of Acts? 915 00:48:54,816 --> 00:48:58,436 He says, for those of you like Freya, who's just joining us we have been 916 00:48:58,436 --> 00:49:02,526 working our way through the book of Acts for, what was it Pete said last week? 917 00:49:02,656 --> 00:49:03,686 17 years. 918 00:49:04,456 --> 00:49:05,286 Not quite that long. 919 00:49:05,806 --> 00:49:07,416 This is a very long time. 920 00:49:07,416 --> 00:49:09,146 We've been working our way through the book of Acts. 921 00:49:09,746 --> 00:49:16,986 And next week is the very final chapter, the very final set of verses coming 922 00:49:16,986 --> 00:49:20,256 into the book of, or coming outta the book of Acts, is the very last chapter. 923 00:49:20,256 --> 00:49:23,136 So next week will be our very final look. 924 00:49:23,526 --> 00:49:24,576 I say very final. 925 00:49:24,816 --> 00:49:26,676 We, it's not gonna be our very final is it? 926 00:49:26,946 --> 00:49:28,296 But it's the end of this series. 927 00:49:28,351 --> 00:49:32,706 . It's the finale, the big end to this series on the book of Acts. 928 00:49:33,166 --> 00:49:34,786 So we have. 929 00:49:35,666 --> 00:49:38,656 Yeah, we've got it, make sure you're subscribed because you're not 930 00:49:38,656 --> 00:49:39,546 going to want to miss the ending. 931 00:49:39,546 --> 00:49:44,596 Next week is me and I think Ellie Light is, I'm not sure why I'm looking at you. 932 00:49:46,336 --> 00:49:48,416 Sharon Edmundson: I did ask him the question earlier of what's 933 00:49:48,416 --> 00:49:50,586 happening next week and that was when all the tech failed. 934 00:49:51,046 --> 00:49:51,726 Yeah, it never got 935 00:49:51,726 --> 00:49:52,116 Matt Edmundson: answered. 936 00:49:52,186 --> 00:49:52,976 Yeah, it never got answered. 937 00:49:52,986 --> 00:49:56,256 So next week, John Harding is doing the final chapter of the Book of Acts. 938 00:49:56,596 --> 00:50:00,896 I'm hosting with Ellie again, answering your questions, just having a conversation 939 00:50:00,906 --> 00:50:01,926 because we love the conversations. 940 00:50:01,926 --> 00:50:02,726 Do come join us for that. 941 00:50:02,786 --> 00:50:03,746 Make sure you're subscribed. 942 00:50:04,266 --> 00:50:07,346 To all things Crowd Church, if you haven't done so already, sign up to 943 00:50:07,346 --> 00:50:11,336 the email and we will email you out the links and hopefully next week it will 944 00:50:11,336 --> 00:50:15,046 work without any issues or hassles. 945 00:50:15,416 --> 00:50:17,426 We can but pray for these things. 946 00:50:19,146 --> 00:50:21,426 There's always something, but bless you, we always make it. 947 00:50:21,436 --> 00:50:22,586 So thanks for sticking with us. 948 00:50:23,026 --> 00:50:26,306 And then, like I said, the week after that, so in two weeks time, 949 00:50:26,306 --> 00:50:28,226 we start our brand new series. 950 00:50:31,006 --> 00:50:37,536 We are going to spend probably the best part, I'm thinking, no, but 951 00:50:37,536 --> 00:50:39,056 it's going to be a good few months. 952 00:50:39,066 --> 00:50:41,576 So we're going to be looking at wholeness, what that means on 953 00:50:41,576 --> 00:50:43,336 five different levels for us. 954 00:50:43,796 --> 00:50:46,176 I'll explain more in a couple of weeks as we go through it, but we're 955 00:50:46,176 --> 00:50:47,366 going to be looking at wholeness. 956 00:50:47,366 --> 00:50:49,316 What does it mean to be whole people? 957 00:50:49,316 --> 00:50:51,056 There's a lot of conversation around that. 958 00:50:51,606 --> 00:50:54,406 Lots and lots to think about wholeness and what that means. 959 00:50:54,866 --> 00:50:56,686 So we are going to have rock and roll. 960 00:50:56,936 --> 00:50:58,666 So how do we become whole as people? 961 00:50:59,326 --> 00:51:00,076 Matt said here Zoom. 962 00:51:00,076 --> 00:51:04,606 Yes, midweek we have an online Zoom meetups. 963 00:51:04,666 --> 00:51:07,496 If you would like to come join us in those calls, then we 964 00:51:07,496 --> 00:51:08,366 would love to hear from you. 965 00:51:09,776 --> 00:51:10,756 It'd be great to see you in there. 966 00:51:10,786 --> 00:51:13,276 Chris, if you're still watching, looking forward to meeting you or seeing you 967 00:51:13,276 --> 00:51:16,756 in the group on Wednesday, Chris come join us for the first time next week. 968 00:51:16,756 --> 00:51:18,796 If you want to come join Chris and the rest of us in Zoom, we 969 00:51:18,796 --> 00:51:19,796 would love to hear from you. 970 00:51:19,797 --> 00:51:22,246 Just message in. 971 00:51:22,266 --> 00:51:23,756 I think if I press that button there. 972 00:51:24,176 --> 00:51:25,046 Yes, look at that. 973 00:51:25,056 --> 00:51:25,956 It's a beautiful thing. 974 00:51:25,956 --> 00:51:27,606 The website comes up on the screen. 975 00:51:27,607 --> 00:51:29,476 www. 976 00:51:29,476 --> 00:51:30,156 crowd. 977 00:51:30,636 --> 00:51:31,006 church. 978 00:51:31,026 --> 00:51:31,766 Chris is still here. 979 00:51:31,856 --> 00:51:32,266 Legend. 980 00:51:32,306 --> 00:51:32,856 Welcome, Chris. 981 00:51:33,606 --> 00:51:34,896 Good to have you on the live stream, man. 982 00:51:34,926 --> 00:51:39,316 And come meet Chris in the Wednesday night Zoom groups, like I say, more information 983 00:51:39,316 --> 00:51:43,336 at Crowd Church, or you can find out more on social media at Crowd Church. 984 00:51:43,336 --> 00:51:46,886 But if you reach out to us either through the website or through social media we 985 00:51:46,886 --> 00:51:48,656 will just, we'll send you the links. 986 00:51:48,656 --> 00:51:49,676 It'd be good to see you in there. 987 00:51:49,706 --> 00:51:50,336 Absolutely. 988 00:51:50,336 --> 00:51:51,296 Yeah, anything else from you? 989 00:51:51,866 --> 00:51:54,176 Sharon Edmundson: Yeah, you can include prayer requests as well. 990 00:51:54,566 --> 00:51:54,611 Oh yeah, of course. 991 00:51:54,626 --> 00:51:54,866 Yeah. 992 00:51:54,866 --> 00:51:56,186 We pray in the week for you. 993 00:51:56,781 --> 00:51:56,901 Matt Edmundson: Yeah. 994 00:51:57,171 --> 00:52:01,216 Ah, close your ear, . You can also WhatsApp them in the number for 995 00:52:01,216 --> 00:52:02,566 the WhatsApp is on the website. 996 00:52:02,911 --> 00:52:05,281 You can WhatsApp your prayer requests in. 997 00:52:05,291 --> 00:52:06,391 We would love to hear from you. 998 00:52:06,391 --> 00:52:08,721 We do pray whenever people send prayer requests in. 999 00:52:08,771 --> 00:52:10,081 So yeah, do send them in. 1000 00:52:10,081 --> 00:52:13,221 We'd love to, we'd love to pray for you guys because we just, God answers prayer. 1001 00:52:13,251 --> 00:52:19,291 What can I say, especially when we pray because we are his favorites. 1002 00:52:21,371 --> 00:52:22,121 Just pointing that out. 1003 00:52:22,411 --> 00:52:23,111 Just joking. 1004 00:52:23,381 --> 00:52:23,951 Just joking. 1005 00:52:23,981 --> 00:52:24,611 I'm just joking. 1006 00:52:25,031 --> 00:52:26,151 We're all his favorites. 1007 00:52:27,116 --> 00:52:27,776 But I'm his most favourite. 1008 00:52:28,596 --> 00:52:31,356 So if Nicola was watching now Where's Nicola in the comments? 1009 00:52:31,356 --> 00:52:32,036 I need Nicola. 1010 00:52:34,496 --> 00:52:35,276 Giving me grief. 1011 00:52:36,256 --> 00:52:37,996 So that's it from us. 1012 00:52:38,586 --> 00:52:40,206 If, like I say, any questions do reach out to us. 1013 00:52:40,206 --> 00:52:41,506 We'd love to answer them for you. 1014 00:52:42,186 --> 00:52:43,496 Yeah, Hardlines LFC. 1015 00:52:43,496 --> 00:52:44,286 Yeah, thanks for that. 1016 00:52:44,286 --> 00:52:48,836 Spoiler alert, Liverpool did not win today. 1017 00:52:48,836 --> 00:52:51,856 And played really badly from the little bits that I saw. 1018 00:52:51,946 --> 00:52:53,276 And it's so disappointing. 1019 00:52:55,126 --> 00:52:56,316 Yeah, I'm gonna go away and cry now. 1020 00:52:57,081 --> 00:52:57,781 It is what it is. 1021 00:52:57,811 --> 00:52:59,241 Jack Mariner will be happy. 1022 00:52:59,241 --> 00:53:02,591 Jack's the new guy he's going to become the new pastor at Frontline, so he's 1023 00:53:02,591 --> 00:53:03,611 going to be really happy, isn't he? 1024 00:53:04,171 --> 00:53:06,291 Let's go give him some grief because, we can. 1025 00:53:06,711 --> 00:53:08,481 Listen, thank you so much for joining. 1026 00:53:08,541 --> 00:53:11,881 Have a fantastic week wherever you are in the world. 1027 00:53:12,251 --> 00:53:13,281 I will see you next week. 1028 00:53:13,281 --> 00:53:14,641 You'll see them, in a couple of weeks. 1029 00:53:14,641 --> 00:53:15,551 A few weeks time, maybe. 1030 00:53:15,701 --> 00:53:16,301 A few weeks time. 1031 00:53:16,321 --> 00:53:17,211 So thank you for joining us. 1032 00:53:17,211 --> 00:53:18,021 Thanks for bearing with us. 1033 00:53:18,441 --> 00:53:19,211 God bless you. 1034 00:53:19,301 --> 00:53:19,801 We'll see you. 1035 00:53:20,071 --> 00:53:20,341 Bye for now. 1036 00:53:22,891 --> 00:53:26,661 Thank you so much for joining us here on Crowd Church. 1037 00:53:27,011 --> 00:53:31,921 Now if you are watching on YouTube make sure you hit the subscribe button as well 1038 00:53:31,921 --> 00:53:37,911 as that little tiny bell notification to get notified the next time we are live. 1039 00:53:38,001 --> 00:53:41,876 And of course If you are listening to the podcast the live stream podcast, 1040 00:53:41,916 --> 00:53:45,346 make sure you also hit the follow button. 1041 00:53:45,646 --> 00:53:50,296 Now, by smashing the like button on YouTube or writing a review on 1042 00:53:50,306 --> 00:53:54,926 your podcast platform, it helps us reach more people with the message. 1043 00:53:55,151 --> 00:54:00,411 that Jesus really does help us live a more meaningful and purposeful life. 1044 00:54:00,761 --> 00:54:06,941 So if you haven't done so already, be sure to check out our website www. 1045 00:54:07,001 --> 00:54:07,361 crowd. 1046 00:54:07,681 --> 00:54:12,311 church where you can learn more about us as a church, more about 1047 00:54:12,311 --> 00:54:17,261 the Christian faith, and also how to connect into our church community. 1048 00:54:18,011 --> 00:54:23,336 It has been Awesome to connect with you and you are awesome. 1049 00:54:23,496 --> 00:54:28,526 It's just a burden you have to bear and hopefully we'll see you next time. 1050 00:54:28,696 --> 00:54:29,446 That's it from us. 1051 00:54:29,596 --> 00:54:30,086 God bless you.