Introduction and Welcome

[00:00:00] Matt, thank you so much for joining me today and welcome to the awfully quiet podcast.

[00:00:04] thank you so much. I am really excited for our conversation.

[00:00:07] Me too. Now, you're a lecturer at Stanford Business School, an expert on communication, the podcast host of Think Fast, Talk Smart. And you just released a book with that very same name that I've been snuggling up to in those past couple of weeks. It has also gotten really cold in Europe. what I really love, about you and the reason I resonate with your content is the fact that you were also in corporate and a lot of your examples are geared towards a corporate experience.

Understanding Spontaneous Speaking in the Workplace

[00:00:35] To start us off, what I'd love to understand from you is what are some examples of spontaneous speaking in the workplace and why is this such an important skill?

[00:00:46] Well, if you think about it, most of our communication is in the moment. It's answering questions. It's giving feedback. It's introducing yourself. It's making small talk. And all of that happens in the workplace. When we think about communication in the workplace, we tend to think about planned presentations, pitches we practiced, or meetings that we create agendas for.

[00:01:06] But the reality is, most of that communication Is not planned. It's actually what we do in the moment. So we really do have to focus on this. And unfortunately, a lot of people don't think about how best to do that.

[00:01:21] Yeah, I appreciate that. When I read through some of your academic publications and book titles, it goes speaking up without freaking out, how to shine when you're on the spot, how to make a compelling pitch, think faster, talk smarter. And I just go, yes, yes, yes. I want all of that.

The Role of Introverts in Spontaneous Speaking

[00:01:40] And the audience of this podcast are introverts in the workplace.

[00:01:44] And when I polled them on how they feel about spontaneous speaking in particular. Close to a hundred percent of them said that they are mortified.

Overcoming Fear and Improving Spontaneous Speaking Skills

[00:01:53] Now, how much of spontaneous speaking is actually innate, a natural talent or something that only the extroverts achieve versus a skill that we can actually practice over time and hone.

[00:02:04] Hmm.

[00:02:07] all of us can develop better spontaneous speaking skills. Many of us feel we're just not that person. We don't have the gift of gab, but in fact, it is. Something that we can all learn. I've seen it in my own life. I've seen it in the life of the students. I teach and in the people that I coach now, not everybody starts at the same place.

[00:02:27] People have either by experience. Predisposition, whatever have, perhaps a little more experience or more open to doing it. But everybody with a little repetition, reflection and feedback following a methodology, like the 1 that I present in the book can really benefit and I want to just take a step back.

[00:02:47] I have a strong position on introverts. You know, many people think that introverts. are, you know, the goal is not to be introverted. The goal is to be extroverted. And that's absolutely not true. The, the academic research supports that. You need people of both types. Often the academic approach to communication and collaborating in groups is the stronger, better way of approaching it in terms of being reflective up front.

[00:03:12] Being focused on others, being empathetic, taking time, taking turns, all of those skills, which tend to align with introverts more than extroverts are absolutely critical to success in business. So, my wife is extremely extroverted. I, I'm sorry, extremely introverted. I'm extremely extroverted and, introverts who add a tremendous amount of value to the workplace and elsewhere.

[00:03:37] So. It might be a little harder for an introvert at first to feel comfortable speaking in the moment, but absolutely can learn how to do it.

The Importance of Listening and Empathy in Communication

[00:03:45] I love that you're saying that, and that gives us a lot of confidence, especially when it comes to, I know that a lot of, speaking spontaneously is also tied in with. Being able to listen really well, which is also something that introverts are, you know, naturally really good at. And, I love how you're saying that, some of the introverted tendencies actually lend themselves to become great communicators, great speakers in

[00:04:09] Oh, absolutely.

[00:04:10] So. I love that. you often, you

Differences between Spontaneous Communication and Prepared Presentations

[00:04:12] reference spontaneous speaking quite often in your book, actually versus prepared presentations. And when I think about prepared presentations, I'm thinking TED talks, speeches, anything that a lot of prep goes into, whereas there's a script, almost a lifeline to hold on to.

[00:04:29] what differs in terms of the prep, the tools and the mindset we need for spontaneous communication?

[00:04:36] Yeah, so that's a big question. So, so let me break it down into parts and 1st, you're right. You know, many, I think 1 of the big travesties of the success of Ted talks and and other opportunities people have to be up in front of lots of people plan speaking is it sets for all of us a bar for what we expect all communication to look like.

[00:04:57] And the reality is when somebody asks you a question, asks you for feedback, or you're making small talks, you're not on a Ted stage. I've been on a Ted stage. I've coached a lot of people on Ted stages. It's very different and a lot of practice preparation and even editing goes into some of those talks.

[00:05:13] We don't have that luxury in spontaneous speaking. So part of the problem is we, we have the wrong rubric, if you will. We're comparing ourselves in the wrong. Way, you know, it's as if I were playing basketball with my friends and I was judging myself by professional basketball player standards. It's just not the right standard to measure by.

[00:05:32] And so 1 of the things that gets in the way in terms of our mindset is that we are trying striving for something that's really difficult to achieve. And many of us put a lot of pressure on ourselves to do it right. Whatever that is. And in fact, I'm here to tell you, there is no right way. To communicate.

[00:05:49] There are better ways and worse ways, but there is no way. So not only do we have to change the rubric, we also have to change what the goal is. So the goal is not perfection, it's connection. So we need to dial down that volume that we have in our head, trying to get it right. Judging, evaluating, memorizing, all of that gets in the way.

[00:06:08] And it boils down simply to cognitive bandwidth. Your brain can only process so many things at once. And if part of what I'm doing is evaluating and judging everything I'm saying, I have less cognitive resources to actually focus on what it is I'm saying. So we need to turn that volume down. I'm not saying eliminate it.

[00:06:28] We do have to judge and reflect on what we say. But a lot of us do more of that than we need.

Managing Anxiety and Improving Self-Perception

[00:06:33] So that's the number one step is to change the way we're evaluating our success and to put less pressure to do it right. The next thing we have to think about from a mindset point of view is to see these situations as one of opportunity and collaboration, rather than as one of threat and challenge, many of us in the moments of being asked a question or asked to give feedback, we feel threatened by that.

[00:07:01] And instead, we should say, hey, there's an opportunity here. and even in the most challenging of situations, we can find some commonality. So address adopting a mindset of collaboration and connection versus 1 of defense and perfection can really change how you approach these situations.

[00:07:20] Yeah, I love that.

Shifting Focus from Self to Audience

[00:07:21] And, I reckon at the end of the day, it's a lot less about us and a lot more about. What we're trying to achieve, what we're trying to say, especially in the workplace. at the same time, it feels difficult to make that shift away from being all too focused on myself and how do I come across, you know, are people judging me?

[00:07:39] How am I being assessed for what I'm saying and how I'm saying it to actually looking? What does the audience need from me? And how can I make sure that everyone else walks away with a really good experience from this? How do we make that shift away from being all too focused on ourselves to being focused on the audience?

[00:07:58] Yeah.

[00:08:03] where I've interviewed over 100 communication experts. the number 1 bit of advice is exactly what you said. It's about your audience. You be audience centric focus on the needs of the audience. the best way I've ever heard it put was by Julian treasure.

[00:08:17] Who's a listening expert. he said, what is the. Listening that I am speaking into and that's saying they're all saying the same thing. So your question is a great one. How do I do that? Well, the 1st thing to do is realize that this is a very common problem. In fact, in psychology, this is known as the spotlight effect.

[00:08:35] We walk around the world imagining that a spotlight is on us and everybody wants to is judging and evaluating us. And while there is judgment and evaluation, everybody else has their own spotlight on them, and they're worried about it. Themselves and in their head that they're not evaluating and judging you as much as you tend to think.

[00:08:53] So we have to remind ourselves that that is intense as it feels it's it's not that intense from other folks. 2nd, often when you were asked to speak in the moment, people are asking you because they have a desire to learn or to hear or to connect from you. So, when somebody asks you a question or asks you for feedback.

[00:09:12] They believe you have an answer that's valuable or you have information that can be useful. So we have to remind ourselves that we have value to bring. And in fact, using a mantra or a positive affirmation like that can actually dampen down the negative self talk we have when we reflect on ourselves.

[00:09:30] The second thing we can do, and this is really hard but amazingly beneficial, which is to record yourself, maybe practicing answering questions or, if you're in a work situation and it's, you're on a Zoom or a Teams or a Meet where it's being recorded, go back and watch it. And as painful as it is to watch yourself, you will notice one thing.

[00:09:51] For sure, that you look and come across differently than you perceive it. This is a well known fact. It's a perception gap between what we think we come off of in our communication and what others see us as. So we call this the real versus feel gap. So I might feel that I'm coming across as tentative or unsure, but when we watch ourselves, we realize I didn't look that way.

[00:10:16] And the reason for this is quite simple. When you communicate, you have access to a lot more information than the people who see you communicate. So, for example, I know what I wanted to say or could have said. You don't. I know how fast my heart is beating or how much my leg is quivering, but you don't.

[00:10:35] And so you just see what I show you. So my students, my MBA students, I teach, we have them watch every video, every presentation they give, we record, and they have to watch every One of those, not once, not twice, but three times. The first time they watch it with no sound. The second time they listen to it with no video.

[00:10:52] And the third time they see them together. And each time they learn and see something different. And that's how we feel more comfortable and realize that we are in service of the audience. And what we are demonstrating for the audience often looks more confident and comfortable than we feel.

[00:11:09] Yeah, I really like the examples of, recording yourself. I feel like this is something that we rarely do when it comes to corporate or in the workplace, because it's just an assumed skill. It's just we all assume that we should just Be natural communicators, natural speakers, and actually taking the opportunity to do that.

[00:11:27] I find a lot of value in that. I feel like once you start recording yourself or seeing yourself for the very first time, there's a little bit of a dip in perception of like, Oh, this is really bad. And then it, it does get better over time. And I agree with you. It's, it's painful at, at first, but then really, really valuable.

[00:11:45] Absolutely. And I love that you've done it. That's great.

[00:11:48] Yeah. So some of what you mentioned, actually brings me into the topic of. Nervousness and, and bodily reactions. Now, what happens to me when I'm put on the spot in my day to day corporate job is my mind goes blank. It's almost like a black screen in front of my inner eye. It makes it impossible to think straight and sometimes makes me lose a train of thought entirely.

[00:12:12] Why does this happen? And how can someone like me take back control in these situations and when put on the spot like that?

[00:12:21] Right. So the reason people blank out is because of their anxiety and, and actually our worry about blanking out increases the likelihood that we'll do it. So, you know, the first place to start is to manage anxiety. And as you mentioned, my first book speaking up without freaking out is. all about techniques to manage anxiety based on academic research.

[00:12:41] So we can do it. And when we go to manage our anxiety, we have to take a two pronged approach. We have to manage both symptoms as well as sources. Symptoms are what you physiologically experience. It might be the rapid heart rate, the shakiness in the hands, the sweating or the blushing. And then, and then there are the sources, the things that actually initiate and exacerbate anxiety, and we've talked about some of those already, the need to be perfect, the feeling of the threat.

[00:13:06] Those are sources that can be addressed as well. When it comes to blanking out, I have some specific advice I give. There are things we can do in advance of speaking, planned or spontaneous, that reduce the likelihood of blanking out. And there are things that we can do if it actually happens. So if you'll allow me, I'll give you some examples of both if that's okay.

[00:13:26] I would love that, yeah.

[00:13:27] So prior to speaking, the two things you can do besides managing some of the symptoms are one, do what we call rationalization. It's a cognitive behavioral approach where you think to yourself, what is the real likelihood In all honesty of you blanking out the next time you speak on a from 0 to 100 percent most people report that the real likelihood is probably around 20 percent of the time, which means 80 percent of the time.

[00:13:58] You won't blink. And if I were a betting person, I would take those odds any day. So we have to remind ourselves that even though it looms large as a fear, the reality of it happening is actually quite small.

[00:14:10] Mm.

[00:14:11] Take the rationalization, take the step next step, which is. If it were to happen, what is the worst thing that would happen for you and your audience?

[00:14:19] Well, it would certainly be embarrassing. It would be awkward. It might set you back in your career a little bit. But if you think about it, and this is where everybody has to go back and be honest with themselves. Have you ever in your life done something embarrassing in front of others that made others feel awkward and that might have set you back a little bit?

[00:14:37] And for most of us, the answer is not only yes, but many times. And as a result, We've still survived and been able to succeed. So when we rationalize, we realize that it's not as likely to happen. And if it were to happen, it's not as bad as we think. And just by doing that process, it tends to ratchet down the anxiety, which makes us less likely to blank out.

[00:14:58] So that's the 1st thing rationalize. The 2nd thing to do is to leverage structure. And it is my hope that we will talk more about structure before we're done. But structure is nothing more than a road map. So it's not a script. It's not word for word, but it's a direction. Thank you. And if I have a structure, for example, a very famous structure, many people have seen if you've ever watched an advertisement problem solution benefit, you start with the problem, you then talk about the solution and then the benefit.

[00:15:25] That's a structure, a logical connection of ideas. If I'm presenting and I blank out and I'm like, oh, I just presented the problem. Well, I know solution always follows problem. That gets me back on track. If you have a map, it's hard to get lost. That's what you do in advance. Now, if you actually blank out, first and best thing to do, go back to go forward.

[00:15:44] Repeat yourself. So, if you've ever lost your keys, how do you find them? You retrace your steps. Same thing is true with speaking. If I can't remember what to say next, I just repeat myself and it will likely get me on track. And then, the final thing to do, if that doesn't work and nothing else has worked.

[00:16:01] Distract your audience. So if in the midst of speaking, I forget what I want to say, simply ask them a question and that question will occupy them long enough while you get your place back. You only need a fraction of a second. I teach the same class every quarter, twice a quarter. I've done it for 13 years.

[00:16:19] I might forget. Did I say that in this class? Did I say that last quarter? When did I say it? And if that happens, I simply stop and I ask my students, I'll say, let's pause for a moment. I want you to think about how what we've just talked about can be applied to your lives. And my students aren't thinking, oh, Matt forgot.

[00:16:36] My students are thinking, how does this apply to my life? So all of us can have a question at the ready. So if you're on a

[00:16:42] So you repair that before. I love

[00:16:46] question. So you, if you're at work, you could say, how is what we just talked about? How does what we've just talked about change what you're working on?

[00:16:54] You could ask that question in almost any circumstance, and it would make a difference. So I know I give you a long winded answer, but it's really important. You can actually rationalize and have a structure to reduce the likelihood of it happening. If it does happen, go back to go forward and have a back pocket question.

[00:17:10] I love that it's twofold in terms of gives me a strategy of, you know, what do I need to switch in terms of mindset in order to approach these situations, but it also leaves me with a bit of a toolbox of things that I can actually do in terms of having that question prepared. kind of retracing my steps and saying what I just mentioned.

[00:17:30] And, I also noticed there are a couple of other tips when it comes to, approaching spontaneous speaking engagements at work, how to communicate in those instances and things to do that might make us feel a little more comfortable. Now. you refer to this as the AMP in your book. can you talk a little bit about what you personally do in those situations in order to feel more comfortable?

[00:17:53] Hmm.

[00:17:59] So there are many, many techniques that you can use to reduce anxiety. Everything from deep breathing to cognitive reframing to positive affirmation. Lots of things we can do to feel better. And I encourage everybody to find techniques that work for them and the resources that I provide, that you can get at my website, mattabrahams.

[00:18:20] com in the books I write in the, in the podcasts, I host lots of other places. The, the idea is to find some of these techniques and then test them out. And once you've tested them out, then craft a plan. Three to five techniques that you can use before you present during when you present spontaneously that help you and make that your AMP anxiety management plan because anxiety can actually amp you up and help you focus if used appropriately.

[00:18:48] So I have a technique I use. I'm happy to share. there's several that I use. First thing I do is I take a deep belly breath. If you've ever done yoga or Tai Chi, it's that kind of deep belly breath with the exhale twice as long as the inhale. It is in the exhale. That the magic happens. So if you take time to take a couple deep breaths with a longer exhale, you will actually feel much better.

[00:19:12] you'll reduce that pounding heart rate. Your, your, everything will slow down. Your speaking rate, your volume will come down. So I take a deep breath. The next thing I do is cognitive. I remind myself that I am in service of my audience and have value to bring. So before I got on this call with you, I said to myself, I have value to bring.

[00:19:31] I took a deep breath. It helps calm me down. And then the final thing I do, and this one's going to sound silly. I'm But I say tongue twisters for me. I can get ahead of myself and I can get ahead of what I'm saying. I can get worried about am I making sense or not. So I need to bring myself in the present moment and saying a tongue twister can help you be present oriented because you can't say it right if you're not in the present moment.

[00:19:54] Similarly, a tongue twister warms up your voice. So it allows me to practice. A lot of us go from silence and hope we can get to brilliance, but if you're an athlete, you warm up first, right? So we should warm up our voice too. So by taking deep breaths, reminding myself that I bring value. And saying a tongue twister.

[00:20:15] Those are the three things that get me in the moment and ready to communicate.

[00:20:20] Excellent. I love that. You shared that with us. 1 that I've taken away is I usually get. Super warm when I speak, I, my red, my face turns red and I love the thing about the something cool next to me, like an iced water or, having the window open. and it's such simple things and something that we can have in our toolbox and it's absolutely fine to use.

[00:20:42] And even the experts do it. So, yeah, I love the idea of an AMP and that personal toolbox.

[00:20:48] thank you. And, and yes, so what happens is when many of us get nervous, our heartbeats faster, our blood vessels tighten up and we're forcing more blood through tighter tubes. It's like you're exercising, you get hotter and we need to cool ourselves down. And the palms of your hand service regulators for your body, you know, on a cold morning.

[00:21:07] When you hold warm coffee or tea in a mug, it warms you up and we're just doing it in reverse. Hold something cold. It'll cool you down. And I'm glad that works for you. It absolutely works for me. I use it all the time.

[00:21:19] Yeah, yeah. the way

Embracing the Unknown in Spontaneous Speaking

[00:21:20] you speak about spontaneous speaking in your book almost makes it sound like fun. Now, what you advise is to embrace the disruptive moments and be open to respond in a way that is not practiced, is not a pattern, or, doesn't just have our autopilot kick in. Talk to me about how embracing the unknown of spontaneous speaking might actually work.

[00:21:44] and how we can actually amplify our corporate experience might help us to develop and grow, maybe even be seen in a whole new light.

[00:21:52] Absolutely. I firmly believe that, you know, life happens. In the spontaneous moments, and I like to say life happens in between the items on your to do list, because when we have a to do list, when we have a script, when we have an agenda, and those things are needed. I understand you need to have an agenda.

[00:22:10] We can't just be running around wild. But when you give yourself permission to have some spontaneity. To allow yourself to just go with what's happening in the moment. That's where discovery happens. That's where innovation and disruption happens. So we have to remind ourselves, think about the times you have been, you've had a wonderful spontaneous conversation, small talk, chit chat, whatever.

[00:22:35] How did that happen? Chances are you weren't looking at your watch. You weren't thinking, I have to say this to this person. You were just in that moment. So we have to allow for space for us to have those communications. When I was in the corporate world, a lot of the creativity, the best ideas. Came from those spontaneous moments when people were riffing and just one person said one thing, another said the other, you know, versus very dogmatic approaches.

[00:23:03] So it's not about one versus the other. It's about blending the two. The problem is most of us have the very rigid. Strength them, those muscles are big and plan presenting and going through agendas. And so we need to strengthen those other muscles so that in the moment, we can make choices to be spontaneous or to bring ourselves back to the agenda.

[00:23:26] So, it. Great things happen in the work environment when you are open to those spontaneous moments.

[00:23:34] And I even think we can start to test it out, step by step. Ever since I read that, I started to challenge myself a little bit and to. Just, understand and identify whenever I'm on autopilot and whenever I'm following a pattern that I always follow when I answer questions in meetings, or when I'm being asked something that I'm not quite prepared for and noticing that and allowing yourself to then.

[00:23:58] Test in a safe environment and say, I'm just going to do it differently this time, I think is a great way of approaching this step by step.

[00:24:06] You are such a good student of the ideas in the book. So the whole idea in the book about heuristics, right? Which heuristics are patterned ways of behavior that often help us, but they also wedge us into a way of being. And if you can, as just, as you said, find a safe environment in a small way. To test a few of these, and that's what can help you.

[00:24:25] So this is why I'm a huge fan of Toastmasters, or a huge fan of taking improvisation classes, because when you do those things, you allow yourself in a safe environment to try on that Thank you. letting go of those heuristics and seeing what things are possible. And after you do that a few times, you realize that great things can happen in those moments.

[00:24:48] And that can really help you. So I encourage you and everybody listening to find avenues that allow you to play with this. So it becomes easier for you.

[00:24:58] Yeah, I love that. And I'm, I'm going to continue to do that. I appreciate it's a lifelong journey that we're on. We can always improve

[00:25:08] Yes, you bet. Sure is.

[00:25:11] Before we close, I've got a corporate scenario for you that I would love to get your take on and you already mentioned it, and to get some really practical tools of how we might approach it.

Mastering Small Talk in the Workplace

[00:25:21] And it's small talk. Let me tell you how I feel. Two minutes on a call are always the most daunting. It feels to me like there isn't a script. There are no rules. I don't know what to expect. And, quite often I find myself logging on just two minutes after the meeting started in order to avoid the small talk.

[00:25:41] Now, I know that small talk can be really important and can help us build connection in the workplace. So how do we make it work for us?

[00:25:50] So I think Smalltalk gets a bad rap. I think we need to rebrand Smalltalk. Smalltalk is actually big things can happen. You can learn a lot about yourself, about somebody else. You can collaborate and create in those moments. And the problem is when everybody does what you do, which is I'm going to be two minutes late, I don't want to do the Smalltalk, then everybody's two minutes late.

[00:26:09] And the person who's actually later than that, now you're, now everything's just incrementally moving back and the same challenges exist. I have somebody I interviewed on my podcast. She's a friend. but but also she's an academic and interestingly a matchmaker and what she taught me, I think, is is a great mantra for all of us to have when we go into small talk.

[00:26:30] And it's quite simple. The goal is to be interested, not interesting. And a lot of us put a lot of pressure on ourselves in these small talk situations to be interesting to contribute in a meaningful way. And if all you do is try to be interested, that is be curious, ask questions, connect with other people.

[00:26:47] Those are naturally intuitive to many people, especially introverts are very good at, at asking questions, being curious. So it's not about serving that ball over the net and scoring like you do in tennis. It's really about keeping the ball afloat and volleying back and forth. So being curious can be very helpful.

[00:27:06] So when you walk in. we did that today when we started this call before we started the recording of the actual podcast, we had some light chit chat. We talked about what time of day it is. We are in very different time zone. We talked a little bit about the weather that was a very natural conversation, but it was 1 of curiosity and that's what got us to the next step.

[00:27:26] So I encourage everybody when you're at work. Be curious. And if you remember something about a colleague, start there. You might say, wasn't one of your children playing in a big sports tournament last weekend? How'd that go? And then that gets the conversation going. So remember something about your colleagues, comment on something you all have in common.

[00:27:45] Maybe there was a big all hands meeting in the morning and you're meeting in the afternoon. You can say, Hey, what did you think about what they said in the audience? Great way to start a conversation. So be curious. It's all about a connection, be interested, not interesting. And that can help you in those circumstances.

[00:28:02] And isn't that a lovely sentiment for introverts, especially because we'd love to, you know, shift the focus and the spotlight away from us to the others in the room. And I feel like that's a really important shift for us to make. So, I really find comfort in what you've just described. And, I promise I'll, I'll join some of my next meetings on time in order to be there for the small talk.

[00:28:25] Well, you've just publicly told everybody you don't. So

[00:28:28] just did, so

[00:28:29] you've met, I think you better.

Conclusion and Final Thoughts

[00:28:31] yes, Matt, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I've learned so much today and I'm sure my audience will want to come running for the book and for the podcast. Now, where can everyone find you, listen to your podcast and buy the book?

[00:28:47] Excellent. Well, thank you so much for this opportunity. I love your insightful questions, and I love how you represent not just yourself, but you represent people like yourself who are introverted. And I think that's wonderful. So thank you. Best place to find me is mattabrahams. com. Everything I do is there, including a bunch of resources that will help people.

[00:29:07] Find ways to feel more comfortable and confident communicating. additionally, I'm huge on LinkedIn. I do a lot there. Please, please show up and join the conversation on LinkedIn. Consider listening to Think Fast, Talk Smart, the podcast. It is all about communication. Lots of tips about managing anxiety, how to structure content, how to be creative in what you say, how to persuade, negotiate, etc.

[00:29:30] So thank you. And, and I really enjoyed our time together.

[00:29:34] Likewise, Matt. Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

[00:29:37]