You're trying to self regulate out of shutdown and work your way

up the Polyvagal ladder, but you keep stumbling upon frustration,

irritation, and maybe even anger.

Is this expected and a normal part of the process, or is this

an obstacle and a red flag?

I want to answer that for you in this episode to help you

understand what's happening within you and what you can do about it.

Hi, I'm Justin Sunseri.

I am a therapist and coach and the creator of the Polyvagal Trauma Relief System.

Welcome to Stuck Not Broken, where I teach you how to live with more

calm, confidence, and connection without psychobabble or woo woo.

This is, of course, not therapy, nor is it intended to replace therapy.

I got a question from one of my Stucknaut Collective members.

This is the private community in the Total Access membership.

And they have been working through the Shutdown to Stillness course.

They sent me this really great question that I think can relate to a lot of people

who are working their way out of Shutdown.

So I want to read this to you and then share my thoughts.

So you'll be able to hear from someone who's working their way through

Shutdown, actively, using Polyvagal Theory knowledge and my coursework.

And then you'll be able to hear what I think about, you

know, what's, what's happening.

I'm going to basically fictionalize this as much as I possibly can.

I'm going to address this generally.

Uh, but I also want to get really specific about what might be happening, uh, in, but

on a general level, if that makes sense.

So basically to this person, I'm making up a name.

I'm going to call this person Teagan.

This is not specific life advice to you or anybody else.

This is my general thoughts, but I'll get as specific as I can.

In a general way.

I hope that makes sense.

Tegan says, I've been working through the brilliant Shutdown to Stillness course.

I'm glad you're enjoying it and finding it brilliant.

This is my newest course.

I have four in there.

Shutdown to Stillness, just so everyone has context.

It helps people to go from shutdown into stillness.

And we'll talk more about this as the question unfolds.

I've been working through the brilliant Shutdown to Stillness course.

Currently, I'm finding it hard to give permission to my shutdown state.

Yeah, that's, that's difficult.

It is not easy.

Permitting any defensive state is a major obstacle or challenge.

I won't call it an obstacle.

It's um, well, maybe it is, but it's, it's a challenge at the very least.

It's a challenge no matter what your stuck defensive state is.

And yet giving permission is, is kind of extremely important because

if you don't permit it to be there, well, how can you mindfully experience

it, feel it, and then self regulate out of that stuck defensive state?

Tegan says, Currently I'm finding it hard to give permission to my shutdown state.

I've moved from resistance and experienced acceptance and some stillness.

That's good to hear.

But now I feel that I can only tolerate it.

So I'm hearing Tegan that she is coming, slowly coming out

of shutdown into stillness.

Had some level of acceptance.

Um, I'm going to assume that means, uh, validation in the

course we work on validating and normalizing and giving permission.

I'm assuming you mean something like that, that basically it's, it's

real, it's here and I'm not going to minimize it or deny this anymore.

Um, that I, I, I am in a shutdown state or I have this experience of shutdown, like

sadness or heaviness or feeling hopeless.

So, experience, acceptance, or maybe validation, and maybe even some

stillness already, which is a good sign.

But, now I feel that I can only tolerate it.

Uh, tolerate shutdown, I'm assuming.

Teagan goes on to say, Yesterday I used the idea of imagery seeing/feeling

my shutdown as a big black cloak.

So what Tegan is touching upon here is that in the course I teach people

how to be with their or how to permit Shutdown, but it's we don't

want to go all into it all at once.

we might want to get to a deep dive into still shut down but that's a lot.

It's potentially a lot.

So instead, there's a different level of permitting shutdown

which utilizes imagery.

So that's what she's touching upon here.

Yesterday I used the idea of imagery, seeing/feeling my

shutdown as a big black cloak.

This led to me getting irritated and I got up, moved around, and started saying,

"Get off me" and "Leave me alone."

I stayed grounded and felt connected.

Energy definitely came back, but only for about 10 minutes.

Shutdown returned, although not as heavy.

So let's look at the process of what's, of what's happening

right now or in this story.

Tegan used imagery to permit shutdown to be within her and it looked like

a big black cloak, something heavy, just sort of hanging on, on Tegan.

This led to me getting irritated.

Now, does that mean imagery led, led her to getting irritated?

No.

What this means is that successfully permitting shutdown at this

level, uh, led to irritation.

Does that mean I'm irritated because I'm in shutdown or I'm irritated

because of the experience of shutdown?

Maybe, but, um, I, the way I interpret this is that irritation is, is, is a

good indication of fight activation.

So no matter what the impetus is, the fact that there's fight activation, is

a pretty good sign of self regulation.

In Shutdown to Stillness in the course, the goal is not to go into fight

activation, although it could happen.

We talk about that.

The goal is to go into stillness.

Stillness is a combination of shutdown plus safety.

We're trying to get a really good level of safety active

along with permitting shutdown.

Combining those two results in stillness, which feels like relaxation, uh, awe,

maybe, I mean at a really intense level.

But typically, it's going to be relaxation, curiosity, and maybe

even interest about our inner world.

So the fact that there's irritation or other people might feel frustration,

maybe even anger, it's not, "Oh, this doesn't work and therefore I'm angry."

It's, "Oh, there's anger within me in the present moment.

That's a good indication that I'm no longer in shutdown or less than shutdown.

And now I've worked my way up the polyvagal ladder into

my sympathetic flight fight state," but specifically fight.

And as we come out of a shutdown, the first step up

the polyvagal ladder is Fight.

It's gonna be shut down and then fight, flight, and then safety.

We have to work our way out of shutdown in the reverse order

of how we got to shut down.

We got to shut down because we could not be safe, could not run away, could not

fight, whatever it was, or the context of our life, and therefore we shut down.

So to come out of a stuck shutdown state, we have to go through the reverse order.

So shut down, fight, flight, and then back into safety.

As very common and quite predictable as we come out of a stuck shutdown,

we will experience something that comes from the fight activation.

That's typically irritation, like a mild irritation could linger and people

might notice that they feel more snappy even toward people that they care

about, but they're just more irritable.

They snap back.

Um, they're the comments that they make, they're not really

filtering them very much.

So not rage that that rage would come from freeze.

Uh, irritability- irritability is very, very common frustration.

Like I'm tired of this.

"I want to, I want to change.

I want to get out of this stuck state."

Frustration.

Frustration comes from emerging fight activation.

It's a really good sign, potentially, I think a very, very good sign.

I get it when I, when I hear my, my shutdown of clients tell me that

they're feeling frustration, I get excited because like, Here we go.

Now we have some sympathetic activation coming back into your system.

If we can mindfully be with that, then we can start to, uh, or the, the, the next

step of self regulation could unfold.

Let's see how Tegan handled it.

Tegan Got irritated and got up and got mobile.

She says this led to me, this led me to getting irritated

and I got a moved around.

So that's really good.

When we've noticed that there's mobility coming back into our system, flight

fight, when the sympathetic system's coming back on, getting up and moving

around, moving around is a very good idea.

That might be a walk around the block.

It might be doing pushups.

It might be pulling on your hands and flexing your back muscles and

your chest muscles or your biceps.

Movement is great.

So as we feel synthetic activation, if our body's saying to move, get moving.

And it sounds like Tegan, that's kind of what your body was telling you.

It was like, Hey, it's time to get going.

Let's let's move.

So really good sign as far as self regulation, as far as the goals of

settling into stillness, um, this is not stillness, this would be mobility.

And that's, that's great.

But as far as the course goes, the goal is, is, is more and more stillness.

But it's possible that fight activation or sympathetic activation could emerge

and we do address that in the course.

So what happened was she got irritated, moved around, and then

said, get off me and leave me alone.

We know story follows state as Deb Dana says, the thoughts in our

brain are gonna change depending on the dominant state of our body.

So the stories of get off me and leave me alone, that does

not sound like shutdown to me.

That sounds like fight activation.

That sounds like sympathetic activation.

That sounds almost like empowerment.

Like I'm tired of this and I am moving forward.

I am, I am changing.

So get off me, leave me alone, come from fight.

But though that does not to me indicate that there's a mindful

experiencing of fight activation.

And that's okay.

It's, it's, it's normal to come out of shutdown and then sort of, uh, be have

the Fight activation without expecting it.

And so it just feels like frustration and " Ah, forget this stuff.I'm giving up."

But no matter what comes up we want to do the same process.

We want to validate just recognize it for what it is.

We want to normalize it.

Is it normal why I feel fight activation right now?

Yeah, that means I'm coming out of shutdown That's normal.

It's an expected response and then permit it.

Can I permit my fight activation to be here?

Can I let myself feel irritated?

Can I let myself feel frustrated, frustration?

And if so, all of a sudden you give it permission to be there and you

mindfully experience that as well.

And if you can do that, that can unfold the next level of self regulation.

So the stories of get off me and leave me alone, this, this comes from fight

activation, but this, The flavor of this is more toward the defensive side.

This tells me that we're probably losing access to safety and now we're losing

access to compassion and patience and being in the present moment with all

of our experiences with curiosity.

So get off me, leave me alone.

There's rejection there.

I don't want this experience.

Leave me alone.

And I don't blame Teagan or anybody else who has this, uh, this thought

or experience within them at all.

And so it's not a, uh a failure.

And it's not about, you know, me saying you're doing it wrong, that's not it.

It's, we ideally, if we have enough access to our safety state through the

process of self regulation, the thoughts are going to lean toward more safety.

So more self compassion.

So instead of get off me and leave me alone, it might be, I'm doing it.

I'm there's fight activation coming up within me.

I can't believe I'm able to do this or my wonderful body.

Yay.

Or I'm getting to the next step of connecting to myself and deeper in

the present moment, like it'll be, it'll have more hope, more connection.

It, the thoughts will be different if there's more safety in the system.

With less safety, there's more rejection of what's happening within.

So even though we don't like the shutdown experience, I

don't blame anybody for that.

It's not, it's not pleasurable.

Even though we don't like it, we can still have compassion and empathy

and understanding for, for it or for our, the experiences of our life

and for our stuck defensive state.

So get off me, leave me alone, totally understandable, but there might be

some loss of defensive, of safety state there and leaning a little bit more into

defensive activation, though she does say I stayed grounded and felt connected.

So that's a really good sign.

So is it all or nothing like all defense?

No, but there's a little definitely some defense there and there's

still some safety present to feel grounded and connected.

Probably out of a good enough balance to keep going.

Um, but I would lean more toward reconnecting the moment, reconnecting

to the present moment experience in your body with compassion as much

as you can and definitely validate, normalize, and give permission to the

fight activation as it's coming up if that's your goal, if your goal is to

keep self regulating up the palovigil ladder, then validate, normalize, and

give permission to the fight activation.

Tegan says energy definitely came back, but only for about 10 minutes.

Shutdown returned, although not as heavy.

That's pretty expected.

The 10 minutes, there's no hard and fast rule about this.

It is what it is.

Uh, but shut down returning, but not as heavy.

That's That's a really good sign.

That's a pretty good sign that we are working our way out of shutdown.

It's not all or nothing It's not all at once.

We work our way out of defensive states a little bit at a time, and

we likely will go back into that defensive state, um, even as a

dominant state, but not as intense.

So things just sort of get better or feel better over time, little by little.

And this is a really good indication that that's what's happening.

There's more mobility coming back in the system.

And less shutdown.

The amount of time that's not super important.

I don't think if you want to draw out, well, that's, I would worry less

about how much time it is and how much compared to like how much permission

you're giving it for it to be there.

So if you can give your fight activation permission to be present for two minutes,

but it's like, you're really feeling it and owning it with compassion, uh,

that's better than to me, that's probably better than struggling with it for, for

10 minutes and try to hold on to it.

And I think just feel it with compassion, feel it, validate it, normalize

it, give it permission to be there.

If you can do that, even if it's only two minutes, that's

a huge win in my, in my book.

Tegan says, It feels like I went from shutdown straight to fight

without the stillness phase.

Does this matter?

Any insights as to why this may have happened?

No, you had the stillness phase.

Um, And again, the time doesn't really matter, it's going to

be different for everybody.

But the fact that you're able to sit still or stand or whatever you're doing,

sit still and look inward, the fact that you're able to use imagery and

give yourself the, allow there to be an image for the shutdown experience,

all that comes from stillness.

So you already had some level of stillness and you had so much anchoring

in your safety state into stillness with shutdown that you were actually able to

allow the next step of self regulation.

So there was, there was definitely stillness.

It was already there.

You, the dominant shutdown state plus present moment safety state

that is stillness that those combined to create stillness.

So if you can immobilize and be okay with it, you are in stillness.

We just want the experience of that, the access to that to grow.

So, you know, like I told people who joined the course, the fact

that you're showing up, sitting down and thinking critically, you're

already have some level of stillness.

We just want to draw that out a little bit.

We want to get deeper into that.

We want to notice the experience of stillness mindfully.

So Tegan, it sounds like you have a pretty good amount of stillness already.

And.

So much so that your body's like, cool, now we're ready

for some more self regulation.

Tegan says, I can still feel that I'm frustrated with being in

shutdown as I write this, but also a little anxious about this too.

So, let's, let's focus on the frustration.

Frustrated with being in shutdown.

Uh, yeah, that's probably true, but, let's, Frustration, that's

the important thing there.

No matter what you're frustrated about, frustration sign that, that,

uh, is evidence of fight activation.

So, of mobility, let's call it that.

If you're frustrated, no matter what you say your frustration is about,

the fact that you're frustrated is a pretty good sign that we now

have more mobility in the system.

The brain is gonna come up with an explanation.

It's gonna say, I'm frustrated about my shutdown, or I'm

frustrated about that thing at work.

Whatever the about is, hey, your body is in a state of mobilization.

That is, fantastic.

That is a much different experience than shutdown.

And then Tegan says, I'm also a little anxious.

That could be some flight activation in the system as well.

And it's, I like how you said that it's a little anxious.

So it's kind of there, it's emerging, but the frustration, the

fight activation is more dominant.

And so that, that tells me that shutdown might be receding fight

activations, increasing, and there's even a little bit of flight

activation coming along with that.

Yeah.

Remember the Polyvagal Ladder, shut down to fight to flight.

Tegan asks, How can I sustain any returning energy for more than 10 minutes?

I wouldn't try to.

I wouldn't try to make it last a certain amount of time.

I wouldn't try to limit it.

Um, Ideally, we're with it as it's there.

And the body will do what it needs to do.

So, if it's there, and again, if you can feel it mindfully, And be with

that activation in your body and feel it probably breathing in your chest

if you can feel your muscle starting to tense up That tells me oh, there's

something happening within me if you can be with that Maybe use a fidget to

like release it Or pull on your hands or push on a wall or just whatever

feels right or just go for a walk.

That's fine, too If you can be with that emerging mobility, I I personally

don't care how long it lasts.

We just want to be with it and that gives permission for it to

be, to stay, to, to, to remain.

So the next time you try out this, your self regulation practices, you're

probably going to be more successful.

It'll probably have an easier time coming back.

The shutdown, the dominant shutdown will continue to just

soften and recede in intensity.

So I wouldn't worry about how long it lasts for.

To me, if we're worrying about, am I doing it right?

Is it the right amount of time?

Yeah.

That comes from evaluation, which comes more from defensive activation.

Don't worry about doing it right or wrong.

Do the best you can to to be with it.

She asks, Is it unrealistic to expect more having been shut down for so long?

Yeah, probably.

Yeah, and then the flight or the intensity of it, the flavor of it,

how long it hangs out in your system.

As you keep tapping into mobility, it's going to shift.

It's going to change today.

It might be frustration, but all of a sudden you have a win and now you're

feeling more self compassion and then so tomorrow it's going to feel like

motivation and two weeks from now it might feel like creativity and two weeks

from then it might feel like, Oh, I'm ready to like apply to that new job.

It might feel like productivity.

Maybe it'll feel like I'm ready to go exercise or, you know, like it changes.

So.

Don't worry about, I wouldn't worry again about time, uh, how intense it is, all

that stuff, just whatever it is, it is, like, be with it, be with it as it is

in the present moment as best you can.

Having been stuck in shutdown for so long, yeah, the returning activation

probably won't be super intense, especially if you're focusing on safety.

If you're focusing on safety as central to self regulation, which I highly recommend

and really harp on in my courses, if you focus on safety, then the returning

defensive activation will be smaller, like it'll feel like irritability.

It won't feel like, oh my god, I'm angry out of nowhere.

It'll feel like irritability and so that's something you can notice

and you can totally sit with that.

You can validate that and normalize it and permit it to be there.

Tegan's final question is, Should I focus on harnessing this frustration

with shutdown, using my safety anchors, or return to focusing

on permission and stillness?

I recommend focusing on stillness.

When you do that, it is very likely, especially for you, it sounds like

there's some emerging fight activation.

When you focus on settling into stillness through safety anchors,

your body will take care of the rest.

Like it'll, you'll feel that activation come up within you

just like it, you did here.

So the body will take care of the rest, but the focus is what's

happening in the present moment.

What's happening in the present moment inside of me, or maybe can I connect

to the present moment externally?

Can I use my senses mindfully?

And what does it feel like to do that?

All that requires a really good level of stillness, which requires safety.

So keep doing the safety anchors practice, make sure you're in a

passive safety environment that we built that in building safety

anchors to teach you how to do that.

Make sure you have passive safety, mindfully experienced what it's like to

be in your safety state, and then say, Hey, what's it like to be in shutdown?

Let that be there.

That that'll, when you permit that, that'll connect with safety.

That'll bring into stillness.

And then from stillness, what's that like?

And all of a sudden.

We're off to the races and you might be, you might notice some

emerging fight activation coming back up within your mobility.

You might notice yourself becoming more mobile.

If you can notice more mobility and act on it.

All of a sudden, we're now at that next level of self regulation.

Tegan, it sounds like you're doing a really good job.

I'm really glad that you're in the Shutdown to Stillness course.

Uh, dear listener, if you're interested in joining us, I do

a live cohort version of it.

So far, it's been awesome.

I've been really enjoying it and the group aspect of it.

I keep hearing from the people involved.

Like this, this is like maybe the best part of this, the material is great,

but having other people and feeling normal and connecting with others in

the same boat, like it really hits home for them and it feels right.

So I'm really enjoying shutdown.

That's a, that's a live version.

I also have a standalone self paced version.

If that's your more, more of your cup of tea, that is all within

the total access membership.

It's only 90 bucks for three months and you get total access to all my

courses, the, the wonderful Stucknaut Collective private community.

So Fellow Stucknaut, if you are ready to take that next step and start

learning simply and clearly and taking very practical action steps on your

trauma recovery journey, I, I welcome you, I invite you into the Stuck

Not Broken Total Access membership.

You'll get all the lessons you need plus connect with others.

It's a wonderful little community.

Seriously, I, I love it there, and I, I cannot wait to invite

you into the Stucknaut Collective.

This podcast is not therapy, not intended to be therapy or

be a replacement for therapy.

Nothing in this creates or indicates a therapeutic relationship.

Please consult with your therapist or seek for one in your area if you are

experiencing mental health symptoms.

Nothing in this podcast should be construed to be specific life

advice, it is for educational and entertainment purposes only.