Hi everyone. I'm Em, and welcome to Verbal Diorama, episode 309, Red Sonja. This is the podcast that's all about the history and legacy of movies you know and movies you don't. And no man may have me unless he's beaten me in fair fight. And that is true. Welcome to Verbal Diorama. Whether you're a brand-new listener, whether you're a regular returning listener, thank you for being here. Thank you for choosing to listen to this podcast. I am so happy to have you here for the history and legacy of Red Sonja. And if you are a regular returning listener, thank you for continuing to listen to this podcast and coming back and continuing to support this podcast over the last six years and over 300 episodes. Genuinely blows my mind that people still keep coming back to this podcast or that I still keep putting episodes out of this podcast. But it genuinely means so much to have you return. Even if you don't return for every episode. I'm really glad that you return for some episodes. So thank you so much. And if this is your first time to this podcast, you are so very welcome and I hope you enjoy this episode on Red Sonja. Last episode was Black Widow, a female Marvel Comics character who was long overdue. Her own solo film within the mcu and just how long it actually took for Natasha to finally get her dues, including having to die and basically getting a prequel. Now, interestingly, Red Sonja and Black Widow share more than just a color in the title. Red Sonja is also a female Marvel Comics character. The link between the two and then having episodes right next to each other is actually a coincidence because I didn't realize that Sonja was a Marvel character. To be honest, I just wanted to do a month of female fronted movies and I wanted to do Black Widow and then I wanted to do Red Sonja. So that's the only reason they are together. But what a lovely coincidence. And while Howard the Duck is often credited for being the first live action Marvel movie, I think there's a good argument here for it actually being Red Sonja. Here's the trailer for Red Sonja.

After being attacked and left the dead, Sonja is gifted with the mastery of the sword and seeks revenge on the evil Queen Gedron. Gedron has stolen the talisman, a mysterious relic that can only be touched by women, that has the power to destroy cities with earthquakes and storms. After a priestess manages to survive the ambush by Gedron and her soldiers, she's mortally wounded and is discovered by Lord Caledor, who then asks him to find her sister Sonja, the only person with the power to defeat Gedron and save this world. Let's run through the cast of this movie. We have Arnold Schwarzenegger as Lord Calidor, Brigitte Nielsen as Red Sonja, Sandal Bergman as Queen Gedron, Paul Smith as Falcon, Ernie Reyes Jr. As Prince Tahn, Ronald Lacey as Eichel, Pat Roach as Britag, and Janet Agron as Varna. Red Sonja was written by Clive exton and George MacDonald Fraser, was directed by Richard Fleischer and was based on Red Sonja of Rugatino by Robert E. Howard. But are we talking about Red Sonja or Red Sonja? And what's the difference? Well, Red Sonja is based on Red Sonja, which was in turn partially based on Red Sonja. Two of those Sonjas have a J in the name, the other has a Y. But they're all sort of linked. Robert E. Howard's Red Sonja with a Y appears in his 1934 short story the Shadow of the Vulture, and she's quite different. From the fantasy character most people know today. The story is set in 1529 during the siege of Vienna, when the Ottoman Empire under Suleiman the Magnificent was advancing into Europe. This is historical fiction, not fantasy. There's no magic, monsters or mythical kingdoms. Red Sonja of Rogotino is a Polish Russian warrior woman fighting against the Turkish invasion. She's described as having red hair and is skilled with sword. She's portrayed as fierce, vengeful, and driven by hatred for the Turks who destroyed her homeland. In the Shadow of the Vulture, Sonja is allied with Gottfried von Kalmbach, a German mercenary. The plot involves their adventures during the siege, including encounters with Mikhail Oglu, a Turkish commander. The story has Howard's typical themes of warfare, revenge, and cultural conflict. Like much of his work, it's a pulp adventure story with vivid action sequences and dramatic characters. Howard was known for his historical adventure tales as much as his fantasy work, such as Conan and Solomon Kane. Unlike Conan, Red Sonja only appeared in this one published story during Howard's lifetime. Although he may have written other unpublished stories, she remained a relatively minor character in his bibliography. So in that case, how can she have a movie adaptation? The answer is Marvel Comics. Roy Thomas and Barry Windsor Smith's Red Sonja with a J debuted in Marvel's Conan the Barbarian number 23 in February 1973 and was a significant transformation of Howard's original Sonja with a Y. Roy Thomas was the writer and Barry Windsor Smith the artist. Winsor Smith was already an established artist on the Conan comics, and Thomas was known for his skill at adapting and expanding pulp characters for comics. They made the character from Howard's historical 16th century setting into the Hoborian Age, the prehistoric fantasy world of Conan. This allowed them to incorporate magic, monsters and sword and sorcery elements that weren't present in the original story. The most notable addition to Sonja's story was her vow of chastity, the idea that Sonja had sworn never to lie with a man unless he defeated her in fair combat. This became central to her character mythology, and it wasn't in Howard's original. They also gave her the iconic chainmail bikini that became her signature look and influenced all subsequent versions. In her first appearances in the Conan comics, she often appeared as an ally, rival, or romantic interest for Conan. The stories typically involved her on various quests or adventures in the Hyborian world, fighting sorcerers, monsters, and tyrannical rulers. She appeared in various Marvel Comics series throughout the 70s, but most notably in the Savage Sword of Conan number 78 in July 1982 where a 21 year old Sonja witnesses her family murdered, their house burned to the ground by a group of mercenaries, and she is sexually assaulted and left for dead. She swears revenge and the red goddess Skathak appears to her and gives her incredible fighting skills on the condition she never lie with a man unless he defeats her in fair combat. Sonja has more links to Marvel too, specifically Mary Jane Watson. Mary Jane was originally created by Stan Lee and Steve Ditko in 1965 and she was kept as a mystery character. Readers only saw her from behind or partially obscured by objects like plants. It wasn't until the Amazing Spider Man Number 42 in November 1965 that we finally saw MJ designed and drawn by John Romita Sr. With her vibrant red hair and the iconic Face It Tiger, you just hit the jackpot line. Why am I mentioning Mary Jane Watson? Well, in Marvel team up number 79 in March 1979, Mary Jane Watson becomes Red Sonja. The issue, written by Chris Claremont with art by John Byrne has Mary Jane transforming to Red Sonja, taking on her appearance skills and warrior abilities, complete with chainmail bikini. MJ is said to be a descendant or reincarnation of Red Sonja. In 2007, MJ would once again become Red Sonja in the 2007 Marvel and Dynamite comic 5 issue series Red Sonja written by Michael Avon oming, but this movie clearly states it's based on Robert E. Howard's version of Red Sonja with a Y and not the Marvel Comics version, despite it actually being based on the plot and characterization of Red Sonja with a J and being called Red Sonja with a J. And the easiest explanation for this is Royce. It's not an adaptation of Robert E. Howard's historical fiction version of Red Sonja of Rigatino, but the movie credits Robert E. Howard because legally and creatively, his original Red Sonja character was the foundational source. Even though the film is actually adapting the Marvel Comics version, Marvel's Red Sonja was directly inspired by Howard's Red Sonja. So when adapting the Marvel character for film, the producers still needed to acknowledge Howard as the original creator. Even though Marvel had developed their own distinct version with different stories, setting and characteristics. The core character concept is traced back to Howard's 1934 creation. So the movie is simultaneously based on Howard's character, but is actually adapting Marvel's version and set in a fantasy world like Marvel's version, not Howard's historical setting, while also using the Sonja with A J Spelling from Marvel, not Howard's Sonja with a Y. It's kind of similar to how superhero movies credit the original comic creators like Stan Lee, Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko, even when they're adapting more recent storylines or interpretations from writers like Chris Claremont, Ed Brubaker or Brian Michael Bendis. But it also feels somewhat wrong in this capacity. But who am I to judge? So with it being officially an adaptation of the Robert E. Howard character Red Sonja of Rugatino, it was announced by daily variety in 1983 to be being made into a film adaptation produced by Dino De Laurentiis, with Ralph Bakshi directing. Interestingly, at an open casting call for the movie, it was spelled Red Sonja S o n I A. The movie was scheduled to begin filming in summer 1983. However, by April 1984 the movie was being called Red Sonja S o n Y A and it was reported principal photography would begin in September 1984 at Sinosita Studios in Italy. And in July 1984, Richard Fleisher was announced as replacing Ralph Bakshi as director. Also in July 1984, Sandel Bergman was announced as being offered the lead role of Red Sonja, now spelled S o n J A. Bergman had starred in Conan the Barbarian ers Conan's love interest Valeria, but she would end up refusing the role of Sonja and instead would be cast as Queen Gedron. The young and the restless actor Eileen Davidson auditioned for the role of Sonja and the film was scheduled to film in Italy for 16 weeks. But Eileen Davidson wasn't successful at getting the part and the production still didn't have its Sonja. Producer Dino De Laurentiis would spend a year in total looking for someone statuesque and Amazonian, and he was still looking for a Sonja. Eight weeks before shooting was scheduled to start, he saw model Brigitte Nielsen on the COVID of a fashion magazine and immediately set about trying to find her. Nielsen was in Milan for a modeling job and De Laurentiis flew her to Rome for a screen test, which she passed and the production had its red headed heroine. But then there's another question about this movie. What is Conan in this movie and why isn't he called Conan? Well, Arnold Schwarzenegger broke through into Hollywood with his role in the 1982 Sword and sorcery film Conan the Barbarian, which was a box office hit and immediately a sequel was commissioned, Conan the destroyer. In 1984, Conan was also a Robert E. Howard character. The planned third Conan film, Conan the Conqueror, fell into Development hell in the late 80s. It would eventually form the basis of the 1997 fantasy film Cull the Conqueror. Meanwhile, Schwarzenegger was becoming a household name thanks to James Cameron's 1984 sci fi horror slasher the Terminator. Arnold Schwarzenegger initially agreed to appear in Red Sonja as a favor to Dino De Laurentiis, who had basically given him his big break in Conan and with whom he'd signed a multi picture deal. But the situation became much more complicated than originally planned. Allegedly, Dino De Laurentiis didn't have the budget to pay Schwarzenegger for a full shooting schedule. So he came up with a workaround. He'd make a pseudo Conan spin off movie Red Sonja to fulfil contractual obligations without the full expense. And he'd get Schwarzenegger to cameo in the movie. It makes sense because the audience loved him in Conan, so why not have him show up here too? Except they couldn't use the name Conan because they didn't have the rights to the name. So they renamed the character Lord Caledor. An unofficial explanation endorsed by fans is that Calidor is one of Conan's traveling names, like when Gandalf is known as Mithrandir during his various travels through Middle Earth. The problem was, while Schwarzenegger agreed to a cameo quietly, the role was being beefed up. And when he arrived on set, he ended up filming for four weeks. After watching a rough cut of the movie, he realized that his role had been expanded to full blown co star thanks to crafty angles and multiple cameras. Schwarzenegger also performed all of his own stunts. Considering his status at the time as an up and coming leading man with also commitments to other movies like Commando. Schwarzenegger didn't really have the time to be deceived by Dino De Laurentiis. Not that he had a bad experience filming. Schwarzenegger and Nielsen actually started an affair during filming, something which both have since confirmed. And at the time, Schwarzenegger was in a relationship with his future ex wife, Maria Shriver. The costume designer on Red Sonja is Danilo Donati. He's also the production designer too. A lot of people did double or triple shifts on this movie. He was last mentioned in the episode on Flash Gordon, which had sumptuous costuming. That's episode 296 of this podcast. Gone is the chainmail bikini from the comic book. Also on the crew, the legendary Ennio Morricone composing the score. The special effects have actually aged quite well with some beautiful matte paintings and the dragon bridge, all playing a part to build the world of Hyboria. There's even a charm to the mechanical water snake monster, which is credited as Killing Machine. The fish machine and spider designers and builders were Colin Arthur and Giuseppe Tutora. Many of the crew had also worked on the Conan movies, including the director. Also working on this movie was Ernie Reyes Sr. As the martial arts consultant who also worked on the Last Dragon, and also with his young son Ernie Reyes Jr. Who stars here as Prince Tahn. Soon after finishing Red Sonja, Schwarzenegger felt his relationship with Dino De Laurentiis was soured by his deception and decided to terminate, no pun intended, his 10 year contract after the 1986 movie Raw Deal. Schwarzenegger's success would be cemented the following year by Predator, which is episode 267 of this podcast. Red Sonja was filmed on location across Italy in Celano in Rome at the stabilimenti cinematography C.I. pontini and the Aboruzzi Mountains. Production wrapped a day and a half later on 21st December 1984, 59 days after it commenced rather than 58 days. The delay was blamed on torrential rains in the Abritsi Mountains during October 1984. Post production moved from Italy to MGM studios in Culver City, California, where Dino De Laurentiis oversaw the progress on this movie. Personally, this is perfect opportunity to segue into the obligatory Keanu reference of this episode. And if you don't know what that is, it's where I try and link every movie that I feature to with Keanu Reeves for no reason other than he is the best of men. And I did actually have a different obligatory Keanu reference. And what that was was I wanted to link this movie somehow to 47 Ronin, which is obviously Keanu using swords. And then something else came to me and I thought this one way better. And it's via Tad Horino who played the sword master in this movie. Now he's no stranger to Hollywood movies, but his best role was undoubtedly that of Confucius in Bill and Ted's bogus journey with Alex Winter and of course Keanu Reeves. And that is the easiest way to link Keanu Reeves to Red Sonja. Red Sonja was released on 5th July 1985, the same week as Back to the Future, which clearly didn't help it gain any type of stronghold with viewers. Also out at around the same time, Rambo First Blood, Part 2, Cocoon sent Elmo's Fire and the Goonies, all of which did better than Red Sonja on its debut, Red Sonja could only manage debuting 9th at the US box office and it dropped to 13th in its second week. It would end up grossing $6.9 million at the domestic box office on its $17.9 million budget. No international financial information is available. However, I distinctly remember watching this several times as a kid, so it must have had a UK VHS release. IPPO Box Office was blamed on the over saturation of sword and sorcery movies, the rushed production, the female lead and villain, and its spurious links to Conan without actually starring Conan, which to be honest, probably just ended up confusing people. Unsurprisingly, critics also gave this movie a hard time. It has a 21% on rotten tomatoes, citing dull, poorly directed and badly miscast. Red Sonja is an uninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's barbarian trilogy, which also it kind of isn't. But again, I think that's the problem with this movie. Even Schwarzenegger jokes that it's the worst film he's ever made, saying quote, now I tell my kids that if they get out of line, they'll be forced to watch Red Sonja 10 times in a row. It must be working because I've never had much trouble with any of them. Red Sonja, though, was nominated for three awards. They were just Golden Raspberry Awards Worst Actress and Worst New Star for Brigitte Nielsen and Worst Supporting Actress for Sandal Bergmann. Nielsen won in the Worst New Star category and that was shared for her performance in Rocky iv. Now, despite Red Sonja's critical and commercial bashing, it's become somewhat of a cult classic over the years, and a remake has been on the cards for a surprisingly long time. It started with Robert Rodriguez in 2008 wanting to do a remake starring Rose McGowan as the title character. By 2010, Con Air and Lara Croft Tomb Raider director Simon west was slated to direct a remake starring amber heard. In 2011, Conan the Barbarian was rebooted with Jason Momoa in the lead, and so it made sense to also reboot Red Sonja, but the project halted, got stuck in development hell for several years until 2017 when a new version was reported to be in the early stages by new rights holders Millennium Films, this time with Bryan Singer the first choice director. He was hired in 2018 and then fired after his sexual abuse allegations came to light. A new version, written and directed by Joey Soloway was announced before again, nothing happening. Another version in 2021 was being written by Tasha Howe and directed by Soloway with Hannah John Carman lined up to star, but by March 2022 John Carman and Soloway had left the production, with MJ Bassett now the new writer director. In August 2022, Millennium confirmed production of the new Red Sonja had begun in Bulgaria with Italian actor Matilda Lutz cast as Sonja, with the character based on the Dynamic Entertainment version of the character where the original Marvel comic Sonya was killed and replaced by Dynamite's reincarnation. And this new version, which apparently does contain much more chainmail bikini as of making this episode is not yet out, but by the time this episode is out the new Red Sonja will have come out as it's due to be released in the US on 13 August 2025, apparently for one day only. It's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see if it pays off for them. It then goes to Video on Demand in the US on 29 August, but it won't be out in the UK till later this year. But back to this red Sonja because this was a movie I remember watching a lot as a kid. So yes, nostalgia goggles are firmly on for this one. But while I'll never say it's a good movie or even an okay movie, there are parts of it that I really like. The visual effects still look really good, I have it on blu ray and the matte paintings might be obvious, but they're also really well done. I adore the production design. In some areas the room filled with candles. I have no idea how many health and safety assessments they had to write up to get that done, but probably none because this was the 80s. But it's so pretty. The sets sometimes look a bit like cardboard, but other times they look really impressive. This is a movie that thrives being filmed on location, and I especially love the extended fight scene between Sonya and Caledor, which shows they're not only impressive swordspeople but also equals in every respect. Neither is given much if any character development. So I like this. I also like that Tarn and Falcon are so bored after a while because it's been going on so long. The sword choreography is no Princess Bride, but it's fine. You can tell Brigitte Nielsen isn't doing most of her own stunts, but you can tell Schwarzenegger is. And honestly, I'm fine with Sonja being a bit bland and uninteresting at times. What always struck me, even as a child was this being a live action fantasy movie with a female hero and a female villain. That seemed so unique to me. At the time, and while as a child, I didn't really understand the reasons why Gedron hated Sonja so much. The queerness of the character is so blatant. I wonder if this was also a reason that this movie failed. Not only do we have an openly gay villain, but rather than just a closeted or queer coded villain, but also a villain who uses her sexuality to oppress others, Sonja refuses her advances, so Sonia is punished. It's not really the best depiction of a lesbian character canonically. Recent depictions of Sonja are that she is explicitly bisexual and polyamorous, but back in the 80s she wasn't canonically bisexual and polyamorous. And this is undoubtedly the most problematic aspect of this movie because it aligns being homosexual with being dark, evil and basically going around killing innocent men, women and children with your new glowing green orb that only women can touch, while also ordering the rape of the woman who declined your advances and murdering her entire family, save for a sister at the temple who happens to escape but still is eventually killed by your soldiers. It's not the best representation, but again, this was the 80s and nowadays we demand more from our queer representation. As for Sonja herself, Brigitte Nielsen does the best with a terrible script where Sonja is simultaneously the strongest person and also has to consistently be saved. She is determined, wise, brave and strong. She has constant awareness of the men around her. And no, women don't need to like men better, men need to be better. And to be honest, the experiences Sonja has had so far fully support her wariness of men. Clearly she trusts her grandmaster, but this is a full on revenge story and Kalidor is literally just stalking a woman in the vain hope he can save her. And of course, according to this story, he does. Several times. I want to go back to the Rotten Tomatoes Summary. Dull, poorly directed and badly miscast, Red Sonja is an uninspired conclusion to Schwarzenegger's Barbarian trilogy. Except it's not. And that's the point. It's both an adaptation of a comic book and also not. It's a sequel slash spin off to Conan. And it's also not. It's Sonja with a Y and Sonja with a J. It doesn't really know what it is or what it wants to be, but it's also not the absolute disaster people make it out to be. It's not as dark as Conan the Barbarian or as light as Conan the Destroyer, and it could have been a trailblazer had it actually known how to write a woman as more than just a stereotype. But yes, I think it's about time. We credit Red Sonja as the first live action Marvel movie, but maybe Sonja with an I next time. Thank you for listening. As always, I would love to hear your thoughts on Red Sonja. And as always, thank you for your continued support of this podcast. If you want to get involved and help this podcast grow and reach more people, that would be amazing. You could tell your friends and family about this podcast or about this episode. You could leave a rating or review wherever you found this podcast. And you can find me and follow me on social media. I am @VerbalDiorama. You can light post, reply to posts, repost posts, however you want to do it. It's all a big help in getting other people to know what this podcast is and hopefully want to come along for the ride. 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