Welcome to the VP Life Podcast, the show
where we bring you actionable health
advice from leading minds.
I'm your host Rob.
My guest today is Hazel Cotton, a nervous
system practitioner who works with people
suffering from chronic unexplained
symptoms such as ME, CFS, fibromyalgia,
long COVID and burnout, conditions that
often fall through the cracks of
conventional medicine.
Expect to learn why chronic illness is
often driven by nervous system
dysregulation rather than structural
damage or misdiagnosis, how chronic
stress, trauma and limbic system
overdrive keep the body stuck in survival
mode and what actually helps people
recover when tests are normal but
symptoms are very real.
Now, on to the
conversation with Hazel Cotton.
Good afternoon Hazel.
Thank you for joining us
on the VP Life Podcast.
I must admit it's great interviewing
someone in the UK for a change.
Don't get me wrong, I love every chance I
get to to speak to the people I do and
that I've looked up for years but when
they're in the States and on the West
Coast that it does get pretty tiring
pretty quickly especially when you're
trying to be cognitively functional at 6
or 7 o'clock at night.
Anyway, you've caught the story.
Before we dive into everything sort of
central nervous system and central
nervous system related today, I'd love to
hear all about it, how you ended up in
the space you're in and how you're
working with the people you are.
We've tiled plenty,
so yeah, go on to all
the detail you like.
It's great to be the Brit
and thank you for having me.
Though I have a history of chronic
illnesses, I had a lot of symptoms
throughout many years, a couple of
decades, starting off with chronic pain
which originated from a shoulder injury
actually, carrying a laptop, nothing
exciting and gradually the pain just
spread and spread and spread and I went
to see so many different people and no
one knew what to do with it.
The pain just kept on spreading.
I saw surgeons and physiotherapists and
all sorts of people and so I was in a lot
of pain for a lot of my late 20s, early
30s and then gradually
it kind of got better.
I actually was seeing a muscle activation
technique guy in New York that somehow
managed to do something with me.
I'd also had some other underlying
symptoms which now I look back were also
warning signs like painful joints in my
hands, noise sensitivity,
constant like tonsillitis ulcers, little
things that you don't really put your
finger on and then I was back in the UK
and I was going to get a
surgery on my shoulder.
Finally I was going to be ready, rearing
to go, ready to do exercise again.
Had this surgery which went perfectly
well, it was just for an impingement, it
wasn't like a big surgery and a week
later my body just crashed, crashed to
the floor and I didn't
know what earth was going on.
I literally couldn't
move, the fatigue was immense.
I developed extreme food sensitivities to
the point where I didn't even
know what I could eat anymore.
It did actually end up running a pattern
of kind of nuts and seafood but there was
lots of other random things so there was
a kind of fear created around food, not
knowing how I was going to react and it
would come on immediately and then I
would be basically just extremely ill,
like an immune
response ill, not digestive.
Then I was gradually getting better for
over three years so I had chronic fatigue
syndrome essentially.
I didn't get formally diagnosed with it.
We'll come on to diagnosis later in terms
of why I am not a massive fan of them in
general but I knew it.
I tried lots of different therapies, lots
of different things, some
of them worked to a degree.
I got myself gradually better.
I still had limitations over what I could
do but I was a lot better.
I could actually like function as a human
being and then 2020, COVID came and I got
COVID and I was no sicker
than your average person.
I mean it wasn't pleasant but it wasn't
debilitating, it wasn't
hospitalized or anything.
It did end up in a ventilator.
Yeah and then just as I thought I was on
my road to recovery, out of the weeds,
crushed down completely again and it was
just like going back in time and the fear
and panic that came over me from
thinking, "Oh my goodness, what if this
is another three years
or whatever of this?"
It wasn't just the fatigue as well.
I actually developed a really bad brain
fog and really bad noise sensitivity and
kind of was prone to overwhelm.
So when my system became overwhelmed
essentially, which could be just doing
anything to be honest, like going into an
environment I didn't like or if I did too
much of anything, which at the beginning
the window of tolerance was very small, I
would just start coming
out in flood of tears.
I wasn't actually upset as such, it was
just like the overwhelm
of the nervous system.
So the only benefit of getting sick twice
was that I knew what to do.
So I went back to all the things I was
trying previously, gradually was getting
better but the symptoms were not
shifting, especially the brain fog and I
was just struggling with this kind of
plateau and trying to just get better.
All the time that I had the symptoms for
like probably like six, seven years, I
knew that there was something not quite
right but I couldn't put my finger on it.
I knew that there must be, I wasn't sick
before so I always had the hope that I
was going to get better, I just hadn't
worked out what it was yet and then I
just came across the nervous system
because it suddenly was in the public
domain, people were suddenly talking
about the nervous system and they weren't
previously and once I found out about the
nervous system it just was like oh my
goodness this makes sense.
So I then left my corporate job, once I'd
learned how to basically heal all my
symptoms and work out how to do it, I
then retrained and I left my corporate
job and I set up my business to now help
other people who are
in similar situations.
It's around awareness of the nervous
system, awareness of what chronic
illnesses really mean, what burnout of
the nervous system really means and
helping people to get better essentially
when there's no help available in our
health system for conditions like this.
Yeah, no that's an amazing story and it
speaks to your ability to push through
which I think, and this is something
we'll come to later, where so many people
just will not only push through but
become self-reliant.
I think so many people just fall victim
to this idea that they should just rely
on their doctor and the NHS or whatever
the equivalent social welfare health
system is that the listener is
whichever country they're in.
Yeah, yeah.
So yeah, no that's remarkable and the
fact that you were able to sort of work
that out is just a sort of a world
testament to I suppose
your ability to push through.
I would love to come back to
some of that stuff in a second.
Something you talked about earlier sort
of really struck home though and that was
it almost started unfold
sort of after the initial op.
Do you think you had a negative reaction
to the anesthesia or anything like that?
No, that's what I initially thought and
what people may think.
I think that what happened was my nervous
system had been dysregulated for years.
It was susceptible to some kind of crash
as we now know, as I now know caused by
chronic extra assets in the body that
therefore weakens the functions within
the body essentially.
And I don't think it had anything to do
with the anaesthetic per se apart from it
was a I guess the operation the
anaesthetic essentially was
maybe a trauma to the body.
It was something that happened to the
body that was out of the norm.
And it just kind of threw it over which
is why when people find themselves in
these situations with chronic illnesses
there's only a number of different routes
that people come in from to get there.
Covid being one.
I don't think that Covid in general is
anything particular apart from it's a
strong virus that throws
systems off that are already weak.
There are some anomalies with Covid in
terms of the organ damage and stuff which
is kind of separate but in terms of the
post viral fatigue element, glandular
fever, other strong viruses,
Covid it's just a strong it could be a
car crash, it could be a significant life
event like a divorce, like a death.
It's something that if your system is I
don't know weeks the wrong way but like
susceptible it can it will push you over
the edge and that's why it people come in
from any number of different life stories
and what's got them there
and it's also cumulative.
So if you've got lots of small things
happening it could be just that final one
that pushes you over.
Most people are when they do end up kind
of crashing as such they probably would
look back and say I was probably quite
stressed at the time or oh yeah I think
of some other things that happened in the
past that maybe had contributed towards
it but it's generally like
retrospectively people can then attribute
what's kind of going on in their life to
then what kind of
happens to them physically.
Fair enough yeah that makes complete
sense and I suppose that's really the
perfect segue to talking about the
nervous system which is what I'd really
like to sort of to maybe dive into now
but before we get into I suppose the the
meat and the potatoes of today's
conversation which is essentially I
suppose how you fix this but at a high
level would you mind walking us through
what the central nervous system is.
Obviously it's composed of two branches
and there's also something there called
the vagus nerve but I feel if we can just
lay out that basic sort of biology and
physiology the rest of the conversation
will just flow just a
little bit more naturally.
So yeah would you mind running us through
how the nervous system works like that's
a little one-on-one as it were.
Yeah so we've got the central nervous
system and the autonomic nervous system
and it's actually the autonomic nervous
system which we pay most attention to
when it comes to dysregulation and the
chronic symptoms that people experience
and there's two putting it simply there's
the two main branches there's the
sympathetic and there's the
parasympathetic and the sympathetic is
what we know is the fight or flight it
what activates when we are in danger if
we're about to cross the road and there's
a lorry coming or if there's a bear in
the woods we would switch on and we
would, you know, symptoms have happened
like fast heart rate well coming palms
and we'd be in like fight or flight mode.
There's also then the parasympathetic
branch which is our rest and digest which
is what we should be in most of the time
it's when we are at rest it's when we're
kind of our heart rate is steady it's
when we're kind of calm and and that's
kind of the two different states that
we're in so you've got the two different
nervous system states which is then the
parasympathetic and the sympathetic and
what a regulated nervous system will do
is it will switch between the two as and
when it's needed it will switch quickly
into one and it will switch
quickly out into the other.
When you are dysregulated when you've
been in a state of chronic stress for a
long time that's when that shift doesn't
happen and you can get stuck in fight or
flight for too long and then if you've
been in that for too long you can then
end up going into shutdown mode
essentially and the vagus nerve which a
lot of people are talking about these
days is so critical it's like the longest
nerve that we have going on in our body
and it determines whether to switch on
the parasympathetic or the sympathetic
branch so it's super important that we
are able to learn how to control as such
our vagus nerve so that we are able to
then effectively switch into the rest and
digest or the fight or flight as we
needed so that's kind
of it in a nutshell.
Now that's perfect now from what I
understand there are a few different
branches of the vagus nerve is that
correct and sort of depending on which
branch you're in that's going to dictate
maybe whether you're more sympathetic or
parasympathetic and now there are various
ways that you can activate the vagus
nerve do you always want the vagus nerve
activated or is that sort of a bit of a
misnomer do you want it to sort of I
suppose vacillate a bit like everything
else in life I assume you don't want this
vagus nerve to be on
all the time as it were.
No it is around activating it when you
need to and when you need to be able to
get yourself into rest and digest more
easily and more quickly there's lots of
exercises that you could do they're
called like vagal toning exercises
essentially which is getting your vagus
nerve to be more toned especially imagine
it's like a muscle that you're using and
it's going to become increasingly used it
will increasingly know how to be able to
switch into the right state that you need
so if you were to do like any vagal
toning exercises I mean there's little
ones like just pulling your ear down and
there's ones where you can kind of follow
your finger around with your eye and
you're looking up to the right there's a
few different ones that you can do you
will generally speaking start yawning or
sighing and that demonstrates that you
are switching into the parasympathetic
because it's therefore putting you into
that rest and digest state so if you are
in a state of like anxiety and feeling
fraught and feeling kind of on edge if
you could do these practices frequently
then it will your system will get used to
kind of being in that rest and digest
state more often rather than just often
being in fight or flight continuously and
that's what you want to learn to do is
shift into the rest and digest at
parasympathetic state
as often as you can.
That's perfect thank you for breaking
that all down now I get to talk to a fair
number of experts on this podcast and the
one question I tend to ask them most of
them actually is why they feel people get
sick it's well or maybe are unwell it's
largely a selfish question I'll be honest
however it does fascinate me because so
many of these experts and they are
experts again tend to actually get people
well you're always sort of hear about how
so and so whoever has this program or has
this methodology that really works for a
lot of people now not all the time of
course because there is this idea this
biochemical individuality and but it does
pose an interesting notion and that being
that there are many sorts of ways to
optimal health anyway that will be a
rabbit hole probably for another podcast
something we could spend all day
discussing but in your view I suppose why
do we get as a society these these
chronic health conditions I know you sort
of touched on a bit already but maybe we
can dive just a bit deeper into that
it's such an interesting question I don't
think there's any catholic answer out
there I think there's lots of suggestions
and ideas that it could could be and
there isn't enough research at the moment
happening in this in this place because
most research is funded by farmer
companies and a lot of this is not going
to be giving towards profit or a quick
fix pill so I don't think there's any
hard and fast pure data on it there's an
element of genetics of which there is
research going on at the moment but it
seems that this is probably a smaller
part to play than people used to think a
lot of it comes down to the way you were
raised and your childhood experiences why
is it that some people are more
susceptible to stress and why is it that
others people could have parallel jobs or
parallel situations happening at work for
example why is it that some people get
stressed and some people don't there's
quite a lot of research that's happened
that does relate back to how you
experienced things as a child so if we
think of ACE which is the adverse
childhood experiences things that happen
to you when you were young like neglect
or abuse a lot of people when they grow
older they have chronic illnesses they
have addictions they have challenging
lives so that's fairly well known to a
degree especially around some of the
addictions and behavioral issues maybe
less so around chronic illnesses although
it's becoming more well known so that's
kind of a trauma element of too much
that's happened to you too soon too much
that you your nervous system was able to
help with at a time that's affected how
your brain has developed that means that
you are more susceptible to stressful
events essentially but there's also the
trauma which is much less talked about
which is too little too often and that is
around not having sufficient
co-regulation when you are a child and
this can come through no malintent from
the the parents it's part of the way that
some of our generations have been brought
up which is not to I guess give emotional
support it's the fact that people don't
really know how to do it some of our
parents didn't have the tools that they
needed to be able to give the emotional
support that the child needed to enable
their nervous system to become resilient
because what the nervous system really
needs in a nutshell is to feel safe it
needs to feel safe and if it feels safe
then it will be regulated and it will
everything will work as it should do but
if it feels unsafe which could be that
something bad happened but it could be
that it just didn't get enough care and
attention that seems to be a very common
pattern for people who have chronic
illnesses there's a huge correlation
between personality traits and chronic
illnesses perfectionism highly analytical
high achievers very very driven what's
that like ring and any
and if you if you then think back to when
you were a child and how these behaviors
develop of course some of it is
gymnastics to a degree but most of these
things are learned behaviors and we learn
our behaviors from how our parents were
with us or how other adults around us
were what our schooling experiences were
and so we therefore start to drive and
push ourselves so if we're constantly
trying to overachieve or push through and
put that drive we're creating that stress
ongoing stress in our body which over
time gradually just builds up and that's
why often you won't see the repercussions
of it until much later in life because
you've had an accumulation of small
stresses that are personality driven and
then you've got events that happen and
they just kind of accumulate and that
seems to be a lot of reasons as to from
my experience and from the research we've
seen is to why certain people get sick
and why certain people don't get sick
yeah that's thank you for that that's a
perfect answer I would probably push back
on the genetic piece I think I think
everything is genetics oh I'm almost sure
everything is genetics at the end of the
day when somebody has a genetic
predisposition to a
certain nervous system stance
then or not stance what's the correct
word state there we go then by default
that is going to upregulate all the
disease processes that we've that we've
talked about then we're going to talk
about I think if somebody is far if
somebody is more predispositioned to
creating more of these catecholamines
these stress hormones that then trickle
down and affect the immune system and
then sort of develop these th17 responses
and th2 responses and all the big words
nobody cares about then by default that
is going to result in a certain
individual if they have a sort of a less
than ideal quote unquote genetic makeup
being more susceptible to these sorts of
issues to begin with I mean you there are
plenty of sort of anecdotal and case
studies and reports where
you have siblings in the same environment
grow up one goes on to thrive and the
other one doesn't now if it if there
isn't if the environment's the same yet
the outcome is different then there has
to be something within that individual
that is contributing to whether or not
they succeed versus fail putting it very
black and white and fundamentally I think
that comes down to genetic differences
now of course that isn't all of it and we
discussed off air about this idea of
terrain and germ theory as well germ
theory suggests that germs are what we
need to worry about sorry and we need to
keep finding ways I suppose just to keep
on killing them off whereas terrain
theory sort of posits or argues that the
idea that if the body is well balanced
then germs I suppose are a natural part
of life and the environment will be dealt
with by the body without it causing
distress I mean this speaks a lot to some
of the stuff we've talked about or fair
about the toxic load on the body do you
think having a high toxic load is going
to contribute towards this sort of this
autonomia in general
yes I think it's a huge contributory
factor because the stress that you're
putting on the body regardless of what
aspect it is whether it's to do with the
toxic load it's to do with the
environment it's to do with your makeup
all of those things elements are
definitely going to be contributing
towards your ability to withstand
stressful events as as you evolve because
they impact all the different functions
of the body you know the liver function
you bla... go on a bit but they affect
all the different functions of your body
so toxic load is yeah I
think hugely important here
yeah I think ultimately what this all
sort of speaks to in my view again when
you sort of peel away the layers of it is
mitochondrial dysfunction the cell
dangerous one something I know we've
talked about a lot a fair amount and so
the way I view it all of this sort of
central nervous system dysfunction
ultimately drives what is I feel is the
central sort of unifying theory to what
disease fundamentally is and that is the
so-called cell danger response now I've
hopped on about this before but
essentially the CDR the cell danger
response is how our cells react when they
are threatened and in CDR they will shift
into a state of defense and that can be
triggered by any threat whether it's an
infection a toxin an injury speaking of
injuries potentially shoulder injury even
or psychological stress and instead of
focusing on growth and repair
the cell then changes its priorities
essentially working towards survival this
then affects all the other systems in the
body especially the immune system as
there simply just isn't enough energy for
the the body to function properly I'll
not get too much into the weeds here but
I suppose at the heart of the sort of CDR
model are the are mitochondria normally
which as we all know are work to act like
sort of cellular power plants making
energy in the form of ATP but when they
enter into this sort of cell danger
response a cell or response they
deliberately become less efficient it
makes complete sense if if the body's
under a threat under attack they're going
to down regulate to conserve energy it's
sort of it's a nice sort of evolutionary
way of looking at it
now it's yeah and they cut back on energy
production essentially what they also do
is they actually release ATP
extracellularly so outside of the cell
it's called strangely enough
extracellular ATP and this fuel outside
of the cell is actually then seen by the
immune system uh as a a danger signal
essentially um it's why I'm not a fan of
people just taking NAD supplements
willy-nilly because the more uh NAD
supplements you're taking the more ATP
you are producing but potentially if
you're an inflamed state you are going to
produce ATP that's then going to leak out
of the cell or out of the mitochondria
and create uh all of these issues that's
getting into electron leak and electron
electron and proton gradients and I
should stop there before everybody turns
off I suppose but yeah anyway just to
sort of run through the the CDR stages
quickly you have three of them uh it was
uh put together by a Dr.
Robert Navio who's the hero of mine
obviously and in CDR1 fundamentally what
happens is that the cell senses a threat
um mitochondrial mitochondria leak these
electrons like I said uh talked about
earlier they start to make more reactive
oxygen species which then create
inflammation and oxidase stress terms I'm
sure we're all familiar with and then
there's a shift into how the body
utilizes different types of energy
sources the mitochondria sort of shift
into this state of glycolysis where
they're not utilizing fatty acids to
reduce fuel they're using um sugars and
that's a good and a bad thing but
fundamentally you are limiting the
capacity of the mitochondria to produce
enough energy um now in theory what would
happen is um once the body has sort of
seen a threat it's sort of gone into CDR1
it will then sort of slowly transition
into CDR2 which is thought to be the
repair stage and and once the threat is
controlled I suppose the focus of the of
the cell excuse me is to shift into sort
of a rebuilding state um the mitochondria
slowly start to work again and they start
to help produce various proteins and
lipids or fats and what are called
nucleotides all of which are essentially
cellular building blocks and um you then
are able to start slowly rebuilding the
cell and then finally you have this sort
of transition into CDR3 which happens
when the cell I suppose sort of is
colloquially put it sort of reintegrates
into the network or the matrix and that
means sort of your metabolism comes back
online hormones start to be produced
properly um and you are able to then
effectively start utilizing
the mitochondria as they are supposed to
work um the challenge comes in when an
individual gets stuck in the sort of CDR1
or CDR2 states uh and they just the
individual at question just is not able
to function optimally because of this
sort of impaired energy balance this
these energy dynamics within the cell now
coming full circle if you buy into the
sort of mitochondrial theory of disease
which evidently I do um then you'll agree
that there are are likely a few triggers
here um central nervous system
dysfunction dysautonomia stress in this
context obviously being a major driver um
now there's a lot to obviously be to be
said upstream of that in terms of that
that limbic system dysfunction that I
know you're all too familiar with um but
before we dive into that rubital I
suppose I'd like to get maybe your
perspective on this and your thoughts uh
on whether or not this is ultimately sort
of mitochondrial dysfunction that is this
triggered by um well in this case stress
of some sort to another or if uh yeah
what do you think of that idea as a whole
I think if we consider how impactful the
nervous system is or the autonomic
nervous system is in terms of in um if we
think about how influential the nervous
system is on determining our overall
health then it makes sense and stands to
reason that actually it's our environment
that's influencing our nervous system
that's then creating this dysfunction
that's happening within the cells so my
view is that of course there is
dysfunction happening in the body but if
we can externally start to regulate our
nervous system then that will in turn
start to increase the overall function
that's happening in the body gradually
which is why I work with the nervous
system with the limbic system influencing
how they behave which then in turn will
then start to influence how the functions
and cells are working and mitochondria is
working in the body that is how I
perceive it which is why sometimes when
especially when after I had covid and I
was reading all these millions of reports
getting obsessed into rabbit holes of
looking for the magic fix to fix all of
these different things that weren't
working properly in the body that was
causing all these issues and why
generally speaking that doesn't help
people is because you need to take it
back up a level and go what's actually
causing this more broadly if you then
start to actually work on your nervous
system and your brain then that will then
in turn influence all of the different
functions that are
happening beneath that.
Fair enough and then I suppose I've
mentioned this term and so have you.
There's this idea of a lot of this being
controlled by the limbic system.
Now we sort of we've talked about the
sympathetic and the parasympathetic and
the vagus nerve but within the brain
specifically there's this area called the
limbic system, the limbic region of the
brain which controls a
lot of these processes.
Could you maybe break down what the
limbic system is and then how
dysregulation in that specific brain area
seems to then drive this these issues
with the amygdala and this stress
response that just seems to be ultimately
creating so much of this dysfunction.
Yes so as you mentioned we've got the
limbic system there's a couple of core
components within that.
We've got the amygdala which is our
stress alert which then informs a
hypothalamus like how to also then
respond which then triggers the hpa axis
which then releases the stress hormones
so it's got that kind of layered response
as to how the limbic system operates in a
stressful environment but it's getting
its information from the nervous system
so that's why when I work with people I
work with them on how they are feeling
and functioning in their body in relation
to how they're breathing, how they're
thinking, how they are standing, their
posture, their emotions, all of these
different aspects are informing the brain
as to whether there's danger essentially.
So if our nervous system has symptoms or
I guess behaviors which are indicating
that there is danger around like for
example I could be sitting like this, I
could be breathing really fast, I could
be thinking oh my god the world is
ending, the world is ending, oh my
goodness all these things I think the
brain's like oh my goodness there's
something going wrong here we need to
switch on this stress, this danger.
So therefore if you are presenting in a
way that represents stress or danger the
brain therefore thinks there's danger and
therefore it triggers the response and
therefore your body is
flooded with stress hormones.
Now if there is danger and you just see
you're out to like have a car curtling
towards you then there would be danger
and then you would need to have all of
those mechanisms happening and then it
would be great to have cortisol and
adrenaline to like get you out the way
and all of those things but if when it
happens with people with chronic stress
they get themselves in this pattern that
they don't even know that they're in
until you actually create an awareness
around it and I can guarantee that anyone
who has got chronic symptoms, chronic
stress, they will be doing some of those
things probably all of the
time even without knowing it.
They'll be sitting like this or they'll
be hunched like that or their breathing
will be really shallow from their chest
or they'll just be thinking negative
thoughts or just being like thinking in
an emotional way that's not conducive to
positivity which is how much our thoughts
can kind of power and empower like how
we're thinking and things so that's why
it's so critical that we work on both the
brain and the body together because they
both feed each other and that's my view
on how they work and how you then can
start to improve your symptoms is by
working on how you are responding as a
person, how you're being and then over
time your brain will start to switch out
of thinking that it needs
to be on alert all the time.
You'll stop being in fight or flight mode
all the time, you'll just start to
gradually relax and as your nervous
system just relaxes as you relax over
time suddenly your symptoms disappear and
you'll notice most people notice that
their symptoms are worse when they're
stressed and then people maybe go on
holiday for a week or they are off
selling themselves somewhere where they
don't have to think about what they're
doing oh suddenly they feel so much
better and then they go back into the
environment that made them sick in the
first place and suddenly the symptoms
have come on and if that isn't a really
strong indicator that your environment
and how you are being is influencing your
health and your symptoms then you know
it's it's just there it's it's it's clear
clear to see and everyone who I speak to
once they actually create the awareness
they start to notice it it's just that
when people have been sick for a long
time they start to focus in on their
symptoms and they almost become like
buried and embroiled in like the misery
of it and counting what symptom is coming
next and oh I can feel this and I can
feel this and what's this oh my god
what's going on so there's this worry
there's this fear there's this resentment
and self-fulfilling prophecy of that is
just feeding your brain with there's
danger there's fear let's keep let's keep
everyone in alert let's keep you in fight
or flight so it's just this ongoing cycle
that people don't know that they're in
but once you do and you're open to it and
not just expecting some magical pill from
somewhere if you're open to it suddenly
people are like oh my goodness and that's
when you can start to impact change on
yourself by actually then taking action
according to how you are
operating as an individual
so fundamentally what you're saying is
win the lotto and go and
live on a spanish island
pretty much yeah yeah although you'd have
to be careful you don't take your brain
your misery brain with you you'd have to
actually embrace it because what some
people could do when they go and live on
their spanish island is still start
complaining that it's too hot that it's
it's uh i don't know
at that point i'd to be completely blunt
i might just say you
deserve to be sick um yeah
you know some people will find that you
know the glass half full or the rain
perspective some people will find
problems with everything and they're not
willing to like make a change they could
go to the nicest place but they're still
like you know looking for the worst case
scenario everywhere and
they're the people who will
struggle the most yeah no i do think
carol deweck's book their uh mindset the
sort of the growth versus fixed mindset
is probably almost required reading when
trying to work through something like
this you sort of got to flip that
perspective on what's real what isn't um
and that you you fundamentally can heal
um even if it is difficult i mean this
obviously isn't a walk in the park but i
think well as you've just alluded to um
if you sort of maintain that mindset
around everything constant being terrible
all the time it's just going to sort of
reinforce that sort of negative feedback
loop and you're not going to get out of
it and i personally and sort of
observationally i think that's the
hardest part i think trying to sort of
convince yourself that it is going to be
okay and that you can heal and then be
consistent in that thought process that's
the trick i think personally um maybe
it's just because i'm soft in the head i
don't know but trying to maintain that um
uh yeah that's that sort of that that
that thought process and are constantly
constantly even when you are
struggling is really tricky
it is the most difficult thing and that's
why healing takes a long time and why
some people don't get better and because
it's not something that happens just
overnight you've got to have such
perseverance to keep on going when you're
not seeing those results immediately and
it is just the small things that you keep
on doing that will eventually make that
change and the other reason it's so
difficult is because you are essentially
having to make changes within your
personality potentially your way of doing
things the way you've been doing
something for decades that's difficult
and not everybody is able or willing to
do it but if you really want to get
better and just think well what got me
here is not hopeful i'm going to have to
make a change if i actually want to get
better and once you start becoming
observational about your thoughts
patterns behaviors and what's driving it
and why you're like that suddenly you can
be like okay maybe that's not as helpful
as i thought it was but it's totally what
you said about the mindset of growth
versus fixed if you've got a fixed
mindset like i speak to people all the
time who've got this fixed mindset who
won't get better because they're still
just buried buried over there somewhere
and they're not changing and they're not
open to it but there's the people who are
ready willing trying and they will get
better if they can just keep it on
consistent but it's about having it's
helpful to have like accountability
partners or people you're doing it with
to keep you motivated because it is it's
difficult and it takes a long time but
you can get there with perseverance
yeah and that's something i know we'll be
talking about later when we sort of touch
on your program um what do you think
about vagus vagal vagal nerve stimulators
um these sort of contraptions that um
sort of almost force and maybe that is
the dichotomy there um the body into uh
is that the right word things so into a
sort of parasympathetic state do you do
you think that they are effective have
you seen any um any case reports among
your community to show that they are
helpful or are they
kind of been hit and miss i
think that would be the term i would use
hit and miss i think they help some
people but they don't help other people i
tried two of them and they did not help
me um that could just be me but i do know
some people who've tried them and they
found it very relaxing and the more that
you can be relaxed the better that's
going to be for your overall health i
know some people have been overstimulated
by them and it's actually caused their
systems to crash um if you're very
sensitive so to be honest i'm totally
almost indifferent to them if they are
helpful to you give it a go but if
they're not then don't it's that kind of
one size does not fit all approach again
i mean it again it's that kind of magic
fix isn't that a quick fix if i just buy
this contraption i'll magically get
better and the other thing is that
although it may help with switching you
into your parasympathetic which is always
going to be helpful it's not it's only
one component of it it's not going to
change your patterns and behaviors so it
could well be seen as more of a temporary
fix who knows but you need to also be
looking at the bigger picture it feels
like even if it does work for you it's
still one component of multiple
components in terms
of fully getting better
yeah i like to view them um as sort of
aids so i think they can be helpful in uh
in the same way that yeah maybe a sleep
aid is effectively helping somebody to
sleep that doesn't mean that you should
just take a sleeping pill to get to sleep
every night but if you are struggling to
sleep and you have poor sleep habits you
can take the sleeping pill to support the
sleep while you are improving the habits
and i think the same thing is true of
these vagal nerve stimulators i think
that they can get the body into a
parasympathetic state which then helps
the individual maybe hopefully feel a
little better and in that during that
window of opportunity i think they it
provides somebody with the ability to
then sort of uh reinforce the the
baseline behaviors that need to be there
in order to to sort of maintain it with a
without the device and then also to sort
of heal independently of it um
okay that's a good analogy yeah
so yeah that's the way i'd like to view
them anyway um uh hey so i'd like to
close up this section of the convo but
before we get there what do you think
about testing again something we've
talked or fair about a fair amount um now
in the functional medicine space it's
kind of blown up and wherever you go
somebody is testing something whether
it's the gut your hormone levels heavy
metals whatever and and truthfully i
think it can be useful um in in the right
context when the order of operations is
maybe looked at a bit more closely um but
i do think that just testing for the sake
of testing is oftentimes not helpful um
i don't think i'm going to get any
endorsement from genova diagnostics for
that statement however um what do you
think about testing especially in this
sort of functional medicine space and for
people who are going through these
complex health issues do you think it's
effective or not ready
yes and no sometimes it will just provide
you with a lot of information and which
is overwhelming the question is does the
practitioner who you're working with know
how to resolve those issues if for
example there are heavy metals in your
body and there's a way to dispel them
then detoxification for example that's
probably going to be helpful for somebody
but a lot of the time you get all these
results there's really not a an obvious
answer for them to be quite frank if we
go back to again the functions of the
body we talk about the mitochondria it
will come back down to your nervous
system and your brain so the reason that
a lot of these tests might show that
you've got malfunctions going on is
because of that so if you work on the
bigger picture you'll find that these
functions gradually start to to improve i
went down the functional medicine medical
route um when i was sick with covid i was
put on all these different supplements
and i was you know given all these
different tests sebo all these different
things but essentially i'm not sure that
it got me anywhere because essentially
what i needed to do was learn about the
nervous system because that was the the
crux of it so you can spend thousands on
different tests i think it depends what
test you're getting who you're working
with and can they help you to do that i
mean i know you mentioned specifically
functional functional medicine but for me
if we go to the our GP and not the
standardized testing that's done that's
where i think people can fall into a huge
well of going nowhere because doctors
will send you for all of these different
tests because they don't really have
anything else to do and then they'll just
generally come back that you're totally
fine and so then the patient is then just
left with not well they had hope and now
they've got no hope so then they'll be
sent for more tests and more scans and
people can just get in this cycle of
wanting more and more and more tests
because they're like but what if it fine
what if i find this and what if it shows
this you know looking for that magical
little cure again that magical little
thing that will suddenly explain
everything so i think that whichever
route you're going down with testing you
just have to be really careful that you
just don't go down a rabbit hole when
there's no solution because unless
there's a solution for the
test result that you're getting
it's not really adding a lot of value and
it also can just create more worry and
keep you more stuck and keep you in fear
like it's just not particularly helpful
yeah uh i might push back on that
slightly i i think testing it can be
effective uh taking everything to account
you said working with a practitioner who
has an idea of what they're doing i i
think if you just go to your gp
especially when it's on the nhs for
example um not to sort of throw them
under the bus but they sort of work off
this sort of of model uh that's that's
given to them so they work off guidance
and if somebody uh presents with a
certain set of symptoms they are then
told which tests that they can run for
that individual um a classic example
being a thyroid test if you're lucky
you'll get a tsh and a t4 um for most
people that's not enough um you need a
tsh a total t4 total t3 etc you and then
and even then that just shows that
there's a problem with thyroid with
thyroid physiology with thyroid um
function it doesn't highlight why the
thyroid is wrong so that indicates to me
well that suggests to me that it's it's
not the testing that's the problem it's
the sort of the whole sort of system
around the testing that's at fault and
then you go down the route calls rabbit
hole um which is fundamentally what
functional medicine is and is supposed to
be about and that should work the problem
there being in my opinion is that
functional medicine isn't necessarily yet
standardized so instead of having an idea
of what should be tested and when um
every practitioner has their own sort of
flavor of functional medicine and
consequently you will go to somebody for
potentially for whatever let's and most
people end up with a functional medicine
physician 90 of the time because there's
some sort of overlying fatigue um so
consequently you will go to a
practitioner and they will they'll maybe
they'll test the gut or heavy metals or
hormones um and it's very very tricky to
then sort of start putting this together
without spending a huge amount of money
and then being able to actually identify
which one of these many tests is
fundamentally highlighting the actual
problem because you have a gut issue you
have heavy metals issue uh but for most
people a gut issue could be the result of
the heavy metals because something like a
candida infection can feed off heavy
metals or consequently if you have high
iron you can also have a candida
overgrowth because candida feeds off
excess iron so is that now a gut issue is
that an issue with iron metabolism is
that an issue with not enough copper okay
so let's run i'm going on a rant here a
metabolomics profile to sort of look at
all our nutrients um but then following
on from that oh wait a minute we've got
issues with b9 and b2 so it has to be a
genetic issue which probably is but
that's another kettle of fish so i think
testing is is great and i think
fundamentally that it that it works but
you have to have a very savvy
practitioner and i think in this whole
field we need more standardization which
is why i'm personally sort of a proponent
of this sort of terrain theory as a
starting point and the nervous system
regulation work that you do as a starting
point because it clears the baseline by
default and when you have this when you
have a body that is as free from toxins
and is free from stress and is as
nourished as it can be then what you can
do is you can start layering testing to
potentially find out what's still missing
but sort of starting with this well let's
just test everything let's throw the
kitchen sink at it and then start sort of
just pulling strings hoping that one of
them will uh help an individual feel
better help them sort of get symptom
relief i think that is it's just there's
no reason rhyme or logic to it and i
think that's where people really do get
uh stuck and caught up and then they sort
of feed into this sort of cycle of oh the
test says ergo i am and and anyway um
that what you've explained is why i don't
always advocate going and going down the
testing route for exactly all those
reasons like if you have the an amazing
practitioner and you've got loads of
money and you can run all the tests you
need and you kind of know how to resolve
from those different tasks then awesome
but that's such a small like percentage
of getting all those pieces in the puzzle
for the vast majority of people it's just
not as effective um yeah and as you say
it's it's unregulated it's all private um
it's it's just a my a minefield for
people to kind of get embroiled in and
you can just as you say get all these
different results and then still not
really know like what to
do about it so theoretically
great but in practice it
can be yeah challenging
yeah i think so and uh yeah it's great in
that it paints if you can do it it paints
this beautiful picture but then you again
uh at the risk of uh sounding like a
crack record uh you've got to have
somebody who can interpret this data and
um i think that's yeah and when you have
labs that are private and they aren't
sort of taught in a medical curriculum it
gets complicated anyway um i'm gonna give
my soapbox now because i would like to
get back to the nervous system um anyway
we've i suppose gone around in circles
which is likely my fault um but could you
share your i suppose overarching
philosophy with us with regards to why a
mindset first approach is so vital for
helping people to start feeling better i
know we sort of already covered this but
i'd i'd like it if we could maybe dig a
little deeper into that i mean we've
we've discussed why the biology behind
the mindset but i think if we could maybe
uh yeah talk a bit more about it from
this sort of glass half-full approach
that would be helpful for people and then
i'd love to jump into your process a
little later but if we could just be able
to start there i
think that would be great
so mindset is incredibly important for
healing recovery because it enables you
to think forward and not be stuck in the
past you need to believe that you can get
better because you're feeding your brain
with that information that you can get
better instead of the kind of the
negative cycle that you you can't so
fundamentally you need to have the
mindset element you also then can play
into like the visualization aspect of it
of visualizing um how your future can be
and how well you can be so thinking in a
positive mindset in terms of how your
future life could look like because the
brain doesn't really know the difference
in reality and visualization so the more
that you can feed it with that
information the more it's going to
receive that and then the neuroplasticity
element will happen having said that
getting well is not just about positive
thinking if it was just that simple then
we'd all be fine well not everybody
because some people will never be able to
get in that zone but it's not just about
positive thinking if i go back 10 years i
read all these books on the mind-body
connection which was essentially as i
read it was think yourself better and if
you're not getting better then it's your
fault because you're not thinking
positively enough and it's just not that
simple there is the bit i mentioned about
mindset having that growth mindset
believe you get better it's super
important but neuroplasticity retraining
the neural pathways in your in your brain
retraining how your nervous system
responds to stress they are fundamental
components to getting well you need all
of those things and before i work with
anybody i have to know that they will
learn to be able to think that they can
get well and i said that in that kind of
convoluted way because sometimes when i
speak to people and they're quite sick
they they just they're struggling to be
able to get themselves in that mindset
but they are open to it so you need to be
open to the possibility that you can
definitely get well and as you progress
you that will be reinforced because
you'll be like i i can feel i'm getting a
bit better okay i now have hope i know i
can get well so you have to be open to
the possibility that you can get well and
if you're not open to it and you're stuck
in that rut and you're not going to be
willing to move forward i don't work with
those people because they're not going to
they're just not going to benefit from
from the the nervous system
mindset kind of work essentially
hazel i i couldn't agree more again i
think mindset is completely critical and
it's important that's required how do you
work with people who have developed an
identity around their disease their
disorder um i know we were talking about
this again um previously where we sort of
noted that people will often create
literal identities around this disease
they have their instagram profiles of
facebook profiles will be littered with
fibro warrior or whatever is sort of
whatever struggle they're going through
um do you actually work with these sorts
of people at all how do you sort of take
someone who has sort of created this
sickness identity and then i suppose get
them back into a state of being of not
identifying with their illness
i haven't worked with anybody who's
actually got it put all over their
facebook profile i've worked with people
who are quite consumed with their illness
and that's quite common and quite natural
to be like that i don't know from my
experience of interacting with people who
do have the labels whether they're the
people who would be open to recovery it
feels like they've almost become
ingrained in this identity they i'm not
saying that they enjoy being there but
there's something about being stuck there
that makes them feel like they want to be
stuck there maybe there's an element of
safety around it i imagine they must have
probably some kind of fixed mindset to
actually be okay with putting that label
on making sure everybody knows that
they've got that label and from
experience they haven't been super open
to the idea that you can get well i think
that people who've been ill for quite a
long time and i'm going to say in the UK
but i think it's the same in the u.s as
well in terms of the the associations
that envelop around these conditions so
we're talking about the ME association,
the long cover association, the fabriero
association they've got a lot to answer
for to be honest because their websites
will tell you that there's no cure and
there's no solution and there's no
nothing so if you're the type of person
who believes these the doctors because
they you know they have professors they
have all these experts who kind of
support these associations and they they
tell you that so if you're the type of
person who who believes that and believe
the doctor's always right and believes
that there's no no way of getting better
then that's what you will always believe
if you're not willing to question it and
actually if i have a i'm getting trolled
trolled on anything that i put out there
um on long covid or fibromyalgia the
abuse i get is quite insane and that i'm
selling snake oil and actually conning
people because it's people will tell me
it's fundamentally impossible to get
better from fibromyalgia it's
fundamentally impossible to get better
from cfs because this doctor told me or i
read it over here or this person and or
they or they use themselves an example i
know it's impossible to get better
because i haven't got better and it's
that mentality that i've well it's not
that i wouldn't work with them i wouldn't
work with them they wouldn't work with me
because they think i'm talking absolute
nonsense but i struggle with the mindset
of people who are not open to it because
i was always believed that there was a
route to get better always i just hadn't
found it yet and to be of the mindset
where you would rather have all this pain
have all this fatigue have this terrible
terrible life that they keep telling you
about their terrible terrible life you
still would rather stick there waiting
for something magical to happen the
emitia so the association just suddenly
turned around and go sorry we got it all
wrong yes you can get better if they ever
did turn around and did that there would
be a huge shift in like people being able
to get better but until that happens um
you're going to keep having these
warriors and keep having these people who
these identities are consumed by chronic
illness you know kind of a comfort
blanket in some some ways i think you
know but it's not something
i personally can relate to
yeah no i i think you touched on a lot of
points and i think i think for what is
worth fundamentally that people get
wrapped up in these ideologies in their
belief systems because as you said
they're safe and i think um there's also
community there there are other people
who share these same belief systems and
as a result of that if you can then
identify as being part of this community
you now have other
people in your life to make
it distracting from the misery but the
community element is super important but
it is it's that safety net isn't it
yeah and it just feeds into another
ideology i mean uh people will get uh the
dietary the dietary tribes that sort of
develop are the same way aren't they
people will sort of literally tear you
apart if you dare sort of question their
carnivore or vegan diet irrespective of
whether it's helping that person or not
or irrespective and it just comes down to
these sort of these tribal belief
patterns that people pick up and again
it's it's i don't think it's got anything
to do with the diet it's got to do with a
belief system or yeah that makes them
feel safe that makes them again feel part
of this community and that's i think
incredibly powerful and nobody
fundamentally wants to be alone and when
you are not well you are for the most
part alone and that is an incredibly
unpleasant place to be so um and i and i
think i think that's maybe the silver
lining of covid and in that it's brought
a lot more awareness to these sorts of
issues broadly speaking um i mean
fundamentally what covid long covid is
sort of all things uh sort of removed in
terms of whether it's active reactivated
ebbv or whatever um it's essentially this
sort of me cfs stuff and i think that um
this awareness that's now growing as a
result of that is definitely going to do
the whole community a lot of good now
that has to sort of evolve past this
again fixed mindset of the me association
says it's not curable unless someone
happens to develop a drug that is going
to sort of solve that problem um but yeah
no i think fundamentally that's the issue
that most people have is just this sort
of this isolation and this need for
community around it and i'm being verbose
again so i'm going to stop talking but
your world becomes a lot smaller and
you're you're basically living through
the internet and we know that the
internet can be a very negative and
dangerous place and actually my biggest
bug bear with people who are chronically
ill so if somebody who say who's got had
cfs or me and they get better there will
be a group of people who say you didn't
have it in the first place because it's
not possible to get back better from it
so what i have or what you had are not
the same thing that like dismissive
accusatory behavior i find difficult to
get my head around you know putting down
other people's experiences because they
were able to actually get themselves
better dismissing
somebody else's experiences
it's just disappointment isn't it it's
almost it's just it's a envy you don't
want to acknowledge that somebody else
has been able to achieve what you've not
been able to choose yourself and i think
that it's very hard to celebrate somebody
else's win when you are still sort of
just trying to get past the start line so
i think that just comes
down to a certain level of risk
again it's the fixed mindset because you
could be of the view how did you get
better you managed to get better please
help me how did you do it you could be a
fat or you could be
like well you weren't a
human condition though isn't it it's hard
to not feel that resentment and it's and
and and if you if you feel resentment by
default it's very hard to then actually
ask someone how they achieve something
it's much easier just to sort of throw
them their anecdotal success under the
bus and say well you didn't have it as
bad as me you didn't
have it at all whatever
competition going on with who's the worst
who's got the worst symptoms who's had it
the longest and i when i was sick and i
was super sick you can say i wasn't sick
because i got better but i was really
sick when i had um cfs and long covid but
i never was of that mindset of hatred
towards people who are getting better or
believing that they weren't sick you know
i was always just like how did you get
better and how can i get better you know
i just would never have you know gone
gone down that room and it's again just
different mindsets of people
yeah i'm afraid i don't have a a retort
or a comeback or any of for that one i
don't know how anyone can sort of alter
that perception i suppose is the best
word on on on appreciating somebody
else's success and then being willing to
learn from them i i don't know what
fundamentally drives that sort of
behavior in somebody um i'm trying to
think which is a bad idea but anyway okay
we've been going around in this circle
for a while so um hey so what about what
actually works now uh for the listeners
who are still here i assume they are
probably after a few tidbits of
information that you have found and
developed that help people to sort of
move the needle now i'm not expecting you
to give away your ip well maybe not all
of it but yeah would you be open to
sharing sort of just broadly speaking of
course what you found is effective for
people at helping them to maybe get out
of uh the worst of it
yeah so it's it's a combination of things
it's around different techniques to
regulate your nervous system it's around
different techniques to rewire your brain
and then it's also looking into what's
causing it in the first place what
patterns and behaviors are kind of
getting getting you there what i
generally start people off with is
actually increasing their capacity to be
able to heal so it is actually a lot
around doing visualization meditations
and mindset work so that you're actually
prepared and ready to be able to start
regulating your nervous system because if
you are sick you can get overwhelmed
quite quickly not so much psychologically
overwhelmed but your nervous system
become become overwhelmed but one of the
key techniques that i then introduce is
what i call the TED method and it relates
to what i was talking about earlier in
terms of how your nervous system is
informing your brain essentially so it's
thoughts emotions breathing and body so
every 15 minutes so i would say 15
minutes if you are dysregulated and you
can put a timer on and then you can
reduce it as you become weller every 15
minutes do a scan of your body and just
be like hey what are my thoughts like are
they neutral are they positive are they
negative what are my emotions like are
they strained are they happy are they sad
are they angry what's my breathing like
is it sharp shallow breathing from the
chest slow and what is my body like am i
tense am i relaxed am i how am i sitting
what's my positioning and then you can
basically reset all of those things and
just be like okay so any negative
thoughts are gone i'm going to be
thinking mutually or whatever just if
you're in a kind of some kind of dark
hole or going down a rabbit hole it can
be quite easy for people to get in sort
of spirals ruminations switch off any of
those ruminations relax all of your
muscles your jaw your tongue really kind
of do that body scan you could be holding
onto muscles that you're not even aware
that you're holding on to and then you
can get up or get up and
just shake for like a minute
yoga nidra sort of stuff
yeah and just um and that will release
any kind of the i guess pent up energy
that's inside your your body and if you
do that on a regular basis you will start
to see some shifts because what you're
doing is that if you were in a state of
fight or flight with those things kind of
pent up you're then switching yourself
into then the rest and digestate and then
you're kind of resetting essentially use
the word resetting but you're basically
resetting the state that your nervous
system was in and over time once your
system becomes normalized into it's
actually relaxing then that's when you
can start to see those shifts happening
in terms of your symptoms but it's about
that awareness and people are always
amazed by how much they were kind of
holding in a kind of day to day but they
didn't even realize that they were they
were doing so that for me is one of the
really thing that people can take away
and just do really regularly and just see
see what their natural state
is um on a day to day basis
fair enough and i suppose you're talking
to chemists what are there any sort of
supplements that you do like are there
any sort of dietary interventions that
you find are effective at helping people
to sort of support these uh
excuse me the behavioral aspect of what
it is that you do or do you sort of
generally steer clear that sort of thing
i generally steer clear of anything
supplement related because i would be
giving advice anecdotally or based on
things that i've read or experiences i've
had and supplements generally people need
different things for different reasons
having said that i would always say
magnesium is a great um supplement taking
but i don't really think it's in my
wheelhouse to be talking about
supplements diet is super important again
not going into different types of diets
but making sure you're having a balanced
diet with a good amount of protein and
enough vegetables and fruit um basically
steering away from processed food as much
as possible because it's going to be not
doing your body any good whatsoever so
having a healthy diet is very important
having good sleep a lot of people i work
with however i do not have good sleep and
that's because their nervous system is
dysregulated so as a as part of doing the
work that i do with people over time
their sleep improves but it's about
making sure you've got a routine you're
going to bed at the same time you're
getting up at the same time and trying to
put those practices in place so it is
about your lifestyle you know making sure
that you've got the right nutrients in
your body either through supplements or
through food getting enough sleep getting
enough rest don't be off up at the crack
of dawn going on a run rushing to work
never taking a break out in the evening
drinking going to a hit class doing the
same thing over and over again
you're going to burn out um so it's about
being sensible and taking breaks and just
checking in on how your body is feeling
most of us are stuck in our heads most
people who work in the corporate
environment are so used to being
analytical and just thinking with their
heads they have no idea what's going on
in their body they don't know how to feel
anymore they don't know what their body
is feeling they don't pick up on any
sensations they either can't feel it they
don't know it they ignore it brush it
under the carpet it's it's really
starting to take notice take
accountability take responsibility for
your own health you can't rely on other
people and i think that's the difference
between nervous system work and other
types of work is people are so used to
outsourcing their health i'll go see a
therapist i'll go see an acupuncturist
i'll go and get a medication i'll go have
a massage i'll go somewhere for an hour
and someone will make me better and
that's not going to cut it if you've got
yourself into a state of chronic illness
you've got to work on yourself from
within there's no quick fixes that's the
only way that you can really start to
make inroads on your health really
yeah one argument might be and that's
psychedelics now um i know you have
thoughts and opinions on these um there's
a lot of research uh obviously with
within the maps community uh run by rick
dopplin actually i saw you some research
there i think i'm going to send it to you
at some point sorry about that um uh
about utilizing um these so-called
psychedelic compounds to help and get the
to help uh with this ego dissolution side
of things to help to help the reticular
activating system the part of that brain
that sort of uh what's the best word
tends to uh mulch over the same thoughts
continuously to disconnect um now
essentially in this research what happens
is you you take the you take a
psychedelic whether it's mdma mescaline
most of them are serogenic compounds
normally sort of derived from psilocybin
or the aforementioned other drugs um and
they there is some data especially within
the ptsd community which is as you know
sort of central nervous system
dysfunction autonomic dysregulation 101
um where these compounds have been shown
to be very effective at helping to to
modulate these thinking patterns um and
then subsequently downstream of that
there are a whole bunch of immunological
and inflammatory um well improvements
fundamentally uh now i don't suppose you
have a huge amount of uh personal
experiences with academics um but what do
you think of this body of research in
general do you think that there's
something there or is there is it a bit
sort of asking for trouble do you think
i think it's awesome to be honest i know
that there's been a lot of success in the
trials that have been done in relation to
addictions and to ptsd and i know there's
some trials now in relation to long covid
i think anything that can be helpful
should be pursued and funded and
researched more it takes us away from the
pharmaceutical reliance and with the
psychedelics it can actually you know
rewire the brain which has got itself
into a bit of a dysregulation as such so
anything that can help i'm fully
supportive of it's a shame that it is
illegal in the uk many countries some
states in america i think have been
opening up um but i think there is some
open for funding in in these countries so
i'm fully supportive of it the only thing
i would say is with some of the stronger
psychedelics like iraq rusca you have to
be i think a little bit cautious going in
if you are extremely traumatized it can
obviously be helpful with trauma and some
people have found huge benefits from it
but some people can get re-traumatized
and be affected afterwards so i think
it's just going in with a you know a
cautious mind open mind and uh just
looking after yourself but
yeah big big supporter of it
fair enough yeah i i think intention is
everything and these compounds have to be
utilized in a safe manner it's not a case
of just going to whales finding a sheep
farming picking a bunch of uh mushrooms
and then lying there and sort of
wondering why it's all gone wrong
afterwards you have to have an intention
you have to have uh and uh the support
there to help you through this process
and uh i think that psychedelic assisted
psychotherapy is really is a breakthrough
for a lot of people but yeah as you said
it's very fringe um that i know there is
a lot more research and uh in the
synthetic psychedelics your dissociative
compounds like ketamine uh for a lot of
people that seems to be pretty hit and
miss though the ones that do seem to be
effective are your uh your plant oculoids
your mesculin your psilocybin but um
those are a lot of strings attached as
you've alluded to just regarding the
legalities and the laws but hopefully um
the research that people like rick dobbel
in doing at the maps institute will start
to sort of expedite some of those some of
that research and bring it into clinical
practice um but yeah uh this has been
amazing paisle thank you for your time um
before i let you go though would you mind
running through a few rapid fire
questions for us of course cool uh your
personal favorite daily
nervous system regulating practice
i would say either shaking depending on
whether i'm trying to release some pent
up um energy or otherwise if you feel
like you need a little bit of a a hug and
something to actually reassure your
nervous system you can just do this kind
of gentle rocking it mimics like when you
were a baby essentially when you're being
rocked it gives your nervous system that
kind of safety and security so bit of
rocking or a bit of shaking
perfect thoughts on uh i think with david
viselli's work with
trauma release exercises t re
what's my thoughts on t re i think like
it's good i mean i have the result of t
re i guess through doing the somatic
exercises in general they do create a
release so i think that it's super
helpful i don't go through the i think
there's with t re there's a specific kind
of process you'll spruce and follow
protocol to get to that particular
shaking i have tried it in the past that
was before i even knew about somatics and
release and all those kind of things so i
think that shaking itself is really good
whether you need to do that t re protocol
i would question because you can also get
um fascia and trauma release from other
different types of
somatic exercises as well
perfect um one myth about chronic fatigue
you would like to dispel i
think i might have labored that already
you can actually get a better but you
know the fact that you've got it for life
there's no cure you're there forever
you're going to have to count spoons for
the rest of your life just have the
mindset you can get better yeah
perfect and then finally one book on a
resource that you really love that you
think anyone in this space should read
i would say the body keeps the score you
know i put gabbo mate but i don't think
you wrote it i need to suddenly had a
brain i've got so many others in my um
mind it's what's his name
not a clue i'll tell you now keeps the
score um vessel vander yep
vessel vander cook i would say the body
keeps the score by vessel vander cook
it's it's revolutionary in terms of how
it informs people about what's happening
in your body and how it remembers what's
what's going on if you're new to mind
body or new to this kind of way of
thinking around the nervous system and
healing yourself it's it's
super good one to start with
yeah i think the one i really like as
well is zebras don't get ulcers yeah
yeah yeah that's a great one there's
quite a few um books out there which are
helpful in terms of
explaining some of these concepts
yeah there really are there a bunch of
them um hazel again you've been a star
absolute treasure um i know you have a
program that walks people through this
from beginning to end uh would you like
to run us through it quickly and then
where people can find you the best place
that they can connect
and all that good stuff
yeah sure it's called the neuro
resilience program it's 12 modules it's
six months so there's no rush and you're
kind of supported through it it's a
coaching group coaching program and it's
really helps people who have got
themselves stuck into this kind of
chronic illness world or in burnout a
sense of burnout and it's a supportive
program to help you through with a
approach on somatics brain retraining and
then the root cause element as well you
can find me at my website which is
rebalancerepaisal.com the program details
are on there and for anybody watching you
can have a 10 discount which i cope with
the code i'm going to share i also do a
one hour nervous system reset hour if
that's something that you kind of feel
like you could just do with an hour of
bringing yourself back into your body and
learning some some techniques to kind of
get you on with the day then
um i offer 10 off that as well
perfect we'll link to all that in the
show notes along with the code and your
uh all your social platforms as well um
hazel thank you so much your time we'll
have to do this again soon
thank you for having me Rob