Glenn Harper: Hello, everybody. Glenn Harper here.
Julie Smith: And Julie Smith.
Glenn Harper: For another edition of the Harper Empowering Entrepreneurs
podcast. Today we've got a great guest named Glen Dunlap.
Totally cool name, by the way.
A fellow entrepreneur who of course has multiple companies.
One is peer view data and analytics, analytics and advisory
platform for accounting firms headquarters in Indianapolis,
Indiana. And in his spare time, he runs big league tours
four for the Major League Baseball that provides an
opportunity to tour the great ballparks and catch a great
baseball game at the same time.
Thanks, Glenn, for being part of the show today.
Glenn Dunlap: Thank you, Glenn. Thank you, Julie.
Look forward to being with you.
Glenn Harper: That's exciting.
You've got two very different businesses, but they have
this one thing in common and that would be data.
Glenn Dunlap: We do have data involved.
Yes, that's right.
Glenn Harper: I suspect when the movie Moneyball came out, you were
jonesing for that, huh?
You're one of those guys?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, it's it's it is fun.
I mean, probably more so from a fan perspective was just
kind of fun to see some of the things and sort of see
inside baseball even more, which was which was definitely a
fun thing. But it's it is fun.
And you can combine your loves in different ways, right?
Glenn Harper: Again, people just don't find joy in numbers.
But there's some of us out there that just do.
And you're one of those guys.
Apparently, so.
That's good. Yeah. Yeah.
So I've got a I got a all the fans have asked me to ask
this question today and and this is a serious question.
But what tastes better?
A hotdog in a ballpark or a steak in a classy steakhouse?
Glenn Dunlap: I would say that it depends on who you're with.
Glenn Harper: Gotcha.
Glenn Dunlap: I think hot dog in a ballpark can be one of the best meals
ever. Agreed.
Yeah, but. But if you're with lousy company, a steak
restaurant could be the worst meal ever.
Glenn Harper: Agreed. Are you a are you a major league baseball fan?
A football fan or you like chess?
Glenn Dunlap: It's like, I don't know.
Do you like bicycles or elephants?
That's right. So, yeah, the baseball fan through and
through. I mean, that's been my favorite sport.
I do love basketball.
Probably is my is my second favorite sport.
But it may be the only sport to watch if I'm serious here.
Which is which is another tough season for baseball fans.
Glenn Harper: Can't they figure it out that people just want to have a get
away from it all and just watch a game and not deal with
the controversy? How hard is that for these guys to
understand?
Glenn Dunlap: Well, evidently, very difficult.
Glenn Harper: Yeah, it seems that way.
So in your spare time, do you like do all that Amazon stat,
that data?
Is that what you study to for fun or is it mostly just the
analytical stuff that you do in both of your companies?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, I don't really do too much.
I well, first of all, I'm kind of obsessive compulsive, so
I don't really I've never allowed myself to do a fantasy
team or to do anything like that because I just I know what
would happen. It would just be this endless spiral.
So I just. I don't even start.
So. So I've never done that for any sport and won't.
And so I don't.
But I do enjoy taking a look at the look at stats and
having some fun with that.
Glenn Harper: Yeah, a man's got to know his limitations, that's for sure.
Well, do you want to share a little bit about what your
business is doing? How they do it?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. Yeah. Any.
Any preference in order or.
No.
Glenn Harper: Pick whichever one you like.
Glenn Dunlap: Well, we're talking let's talk baseball, because I think the
rest of the time we'll talk about peer.
So, you know, several years ago, I went through a program
at at our church, which was before I die, I want to and it
wasn't all about bucket list stuff.
It was also about leaving a legacy and mentoring the poor.
You, too. So it was it was more meaningful stuff than
Bucket List, but there was a bucket list column of things.
And one of those things was I said I wanted to go visit all
30 stadiums with my dad and my son.
Because when you when you phrase something like Before I
die, that really puts a different spin on it, right?
So when I did that, I thought, you know, I'm not going to
have my dad forever and my son's not going to think I'm
cool for much longer, so I better get this done.
So I started to look at how I could do it.
And, you know, this is a common theme for me that I didn't
like how other people were doing it.
So I felt like I could build a better mousetrap.
And that's kind of what I did.
Nice. So in 2006 launched big league tours and we started
providing baseball tours to fans.
And really the premise was I'd gone on group tours before
and didn't really like it.
I was in France with a group tour at my French club in high
school, and at 15 they dropped us off at the Louvre and
said, You've got 2 hours, we'll pick you up right back
here. And I'm thinking that even at 15, I'm kind of like 2
hours, you know, we could spend days in here.
So I kept thinking, I'll never do another group tour.
Right now I own a group tour company.
Right. So the thing is, is that we build in things that
that provide the benefits of being with a group when you
can't. So we get behind the scenes tours at stadiums.
We sit in great seats, we know where to stay in the cities,
that kind of thing. But we also give you a lot of
flexibility to go out and do other things.
So if you've been to New York a bunch of times, you don't
want to be on the same double decker bus tour that you've
been on before. So you get a lot of flexibility.
If you've not been to the 911 Museum or whatever, you can
go do those things on your own and we help people out with
that. But we just try to build in where it's the best to
take advantage of the tickets, the relationships, the
knowing where to stay and helping people kind of make those
choices.
Glenn Harper: So is it a is it a standard like tour each one, or do you
mix it up every year?
Glenn Dunlap: We have some pretty common ones.
Our most popular tour is Fenway Park, the Hall of Fame of
Cooperstown, Yankee Stadium and Citi Field.
So that's the one call Hall of Fame tour.
And we can do that package multiple times each year.
So it's it just depends on the on the schedule when the
teams are in town and how we can set those things up as to
what our options are.
But we work through those packages and we're going to do
the East Coast, Mid East, Midwest, West Coast stuff, south
and Southwest. So those are pretty common.
Glenn Harper: Isn't it funny? You know, you went on a tour like we all
have been on tours and they really just kind of suck.
You're just herd of cattle running through places and you
don't even get a chance to pause and reflect and look at
anything. And and there's that entrepreneurial spirit that
just hit you. I said, You know what?
I can do this better.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. And it's it's it's interesting.
I mean, you know, you see.
You know, like we go through the stadium tours at all the
different parks where we can.
Sometimes it's good to allow and it certainly has changed
that. But as you're going through the tour, you get you get
the security guards that are just pushing people through,
pushing people through a tour.
And I you know, at first I used to get upset about that.
And then I now ask the security guards and how have you
worked here? And they'll tell me anywhere from six months
to 36 years.
And so you've seen this a time or two?
Oh, God, yeah, I've seen this.
But you know what? This is the first time.
You know, let's let's let's chill out a little bit.
Let's calm down. And they're like, oh, yeah, okay.
They kind of forget, you know, I live here every day, you
know? So it's kind of one of those where you kind of go,
let's just let them enjoy this for a second.
You know, there's the next tour will happen when that
happens.
Glenn Harper: Thanks. Lighten up, Francis.
We got this.
Glenn Dunlap: Right. Exactly.
Glenn Harper: Sweet. Let me talk about your other company.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. So, you know, private data we started seven years ago
was was actually just sort of born out of my experience in
in working with entrepreneurial companies.
Most of my career, I've done part time CFO, corporate
finance kinds of things, forecasting, modeling, doing
financial projections and doing business plans, strategic
plans, also helping companies with debt and equity
placements. And when you're doing that work, you get asked
the question a lot of times, what do you see other
companies like me? How fast are they growing?
How much are they spending on health insurance and how bad
is their turnover? And just think questions that you would
you would get in besides sort of anecdotal information
like, okay, we've got, you know, however many other clients
that maybe are in this space, I can kind of answer that and
kind of come up with some, some things around those things.
But, you know, it's always one of the things that just kept
in the back of my mind somebody needs to do a better job
with this. And I was a user of some of the other apps, but
I just I didn't like how they were doing it.
You know, as a, for instance, the banks use the RMB, a the
risk management association stuff and it's, it's great for
their purposes, but if you're trying to make it a different
business decision off of it, you don't have four line items
for the revenue cause net income.
You're not going to change anything based on those four
line items. So it doesn't really give you the details to
dig into their data and to understand it.
So that's why it was just kind of one of those things that
I kept saying, somebody needs to do a better job of this
and better job of this. And that's how we how we get
started. And there's a phrase that I have I'm not the
person who originated that somebody else said it, but it
was a phrase that I've just adopted.
And that is you have to be willing to say the phrase this
may not work, but.
Right. And so I went to some of my former clients and said,
you know, hey, this may not work, but and they went, Yeah,
let's do it. So 15 we started with professional services
companies and ask them, they said, What do you need?
So let me have three or four years of financial data.
So they gave me a balance sheet and so we compiled that
data and went back to them and they all kind of went, you
know, if you don't really have 15 or 20 law firms or ad
agencies or software development companies in engineering
firms, then we don't know how comparable this is.
If you've got three of each of us said, Well, we don't
know, it may not work, but let's try it.
So we did. And we went back to them and all of them said,
Oh, this is great.
We would pay you for this kind of thing.
You kind of go, Okay, well, maybe we're on to something.
So, you know, so we started at kind of a high level like
that and knew that we would have to start there and then
kind of drill into it. But we, we started with, with that
in mind and then we kind of grew from there.
Glenn Harper: How big of, you know, different entrepreneurs, different
sizes, you know, they just need different services and data
and advice and what not, what size company that is your
services kind of tailored to is this like a 20 and under
employee? This is 100 and under employee.
This is a $10 million company.
And above, where do you think that sweet spot is?
Glenn Dunlap: You know, I think really the sweet spot for most business
owners using this kind of data would be, I would say, firms
that are probably not quite as internally sophisticated,
that they don't have a ton of stuff.
So I would say some of the lower end of that spectrum with
the exception that we see.
So our our clients are CPA firms.
So we're working with firms across the country and we kind
of went in through different doors.
Initially, it was kind of everybody would push us to the
audit team that, hey, they need analytics for the audit, so
this could be helpful on the front end.
So, so we started working with audit teams there and most
audits are going to be larger firms.
So it's not a small firm.
So are the users inside the firm at that?
Not typically. I would say it's more for the CPA firm using
it. So we have a lot of data for firms that are 10 million,
50 million, hundred million and up because of that that
pathway. What's transitioned is is that as we've gotten
more granular in our data, then it started to come where
firms that are doing client accounting, advisory services
practices, they've connected their clients QuickBooks
Online files as a for instance.
And so now that data is coming in monthly.
And so you see $1,000,000 demo practices that are getting
data every month from their CPA firm that shows them not
only how they're doing or how they did last month, but how
did the rest of the profession do and how do I compare to
that? And they can sort that by size or geography by
specialty, and start to look at some comparisons from that
standpoint. So it changes that conversation and I'd say
there are different uses for it and we've got people across
the spectrum using the database.
Glenn Harper: Sounds weird that you're suggesting that, you know, I could
look at somebody else's data and predict my own.
I mean, that's that sounds like poppycock.
Is that is that true?
Yeah. Well, you know, let's not dance around it.
Let's get right to it. Right. Go right to the pie.
No, it's a it's an amazing thing.
You know, I see a lot of entrepreneurs.
They are so busy doing their work that they really never
have a lot of time to analyze those things.
And I guess what you're suggesting is that when this goes
to the CPAs, the CPAs can have a high level quick
conversation, say, hey, by the way, Bob, here's where
you're stand with firms your size doing this kind of thing.
And this might help you out a little bit.
And it just gives them a chance to maybe pause and reflect
and go, oh, wow. Wonder why that's so high, why that's so
low, and just see if they're in the range.
Right? Because people just they always want to compare,
right? Everybody wants to know how they're doing.
The competition.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. You know, so we part of what motivated me to do this
was, you know, prior to launching Peer Review, I was a
partner in an outsourced accounting firm in Indianapolis.
But Milestone Advisors, it's it's a transition.
And actually the firm that firm sold to a larger fair
amount of Oregon recently or California.
But they when we when I right before I left, we had two or
300 companies that we were servicing on a monthly basis
where we had 30 employees and we were doing the day in, day
out accounting stuff. And one of the things that happened
was that through the 2008 2009 economic downturn, we would
see firms inside the same industry, firms that were killing
it and firms that were being killed.
And yet they all used the same language.
You know, it was from a public perspective, they were all
saying, you know, that's the new up or 20% down flat and
working harder and smarter and less to show for it.
And all those things that were the, you know, the kind of
the common sort of public persona phrases that people were
using. And my partners and I were all looking at each other
like, this doesn't hold up.
You know, there are people that are doing really well in
this space. And so we kept saying, you know, there's got to
this is kind of the thing that, you know, there's got to be
a way for business owners to really understand what's
happening in their space rather than it being something
that's just, you know, all the lies that we tell each other
at cocktail parties, how good or bad we think it's going or
what we think we're supposed to say when we're when we're
out in that space. And so, you know, if you were killing
it, you didn't really want to tell everybody, you're
killing it, you're being killed.
You also didn't really want to admit that either.
So, you know, this was a way to plug in and say, okay, now
I can at least see with without anybody's sort of public
face, there's no varnish on this.
This is just the the data that says that here's how 100
other or 250 other companies are doing in my in my
vertical. And then I can sort out from that.
What does that mean to me?
You know, I don't I don't sit here and profess that
benchmarks are the best thing in the world and that, you
know, that you should you should try to mirror those at all
costs. But as you said, Glenn, they're really a way to kind
of reflect and say, here's what we're saying.
We can accept that. Here's where we're different maybe why?
What could we learn from that?
And maybe some of those things are things that you would
want to change and other things that you wouldn't.
You know, a common thing we see is my my margins are
dramatically different.
My material costs are higher, my labor costs are different.
I've got labor costs below the line versus the things above
the line in.
And so I'm growing really quickly.
But my my net profits are thin.
So are there things that if I understood the cost better,
what I did differently, what can I learn from that?
And it's we can all say that we're our business is so
unique that we can't compare to anybody else.
But the reality is, is that there are a lot of ways that we
can we can compare and learn and and try to figure out, is
this something I need to do something different about or is
this just something that versus making a strategic,
intentional decision to continue down this path?
Julie Smith: So, Glenn, I want to pivot a little bit and I want to take
you back in time.
When did you know you wanted to be an entrepreneur?
I've heard a couple of stories and I really love them.
So I'm hoping I get the same one from you.
Glenn Dunlap: I think that I know probably early.
I don't know that I necessarily knew early.
But I will I will tell you, I grew up in a really small
town in central Indiana, and that's where my parents had
grown up. They knew a lot of people.
And so my dad, when I was probably.
You know, fourth grade or something like that took me took
me into town and into town.
I mean, there's a lot of people.
Glenn Harper: So it's a big deal, though.
It is going to town.
Glenn Dunlap: In the town. And we were in a truck and we had a push
forward, a gas canister back.
Right. And so my dad took me around and we stopped and he
would say, okay, this is Wayne McMahon.
I went to school with his daughter, Pat, you know, and
like, okay, Wayne's yard has been mowed for a couple of
weeks. You know, come back here and talk to Wayne.
Took me to the next house, said, this is so-and-so,
so-and-so. There you are.
He's he's laid up, you know, something?
So, you know, come back here.
Took me around to I don't remember how many homes, but then
he drove me around and showed me different homes, took me
back to the first house and dropped me off and said, Do as
many of these yards as you can and I'll pick you up the
last spot at the end of the day.
Glenn Harper: Fantastic.
Glenn Dunlap: Just drop me up. And I was like, okay, you know, so had to
go up and knock on the door.
The old guys with the cigars coming to the door to talk to
you and scared the crap out of me.
And then I had to sort of size up what I was going to, how
long he's going to take me and figure out and then ask them
to get paid and go back up and ask for the money and go to
the next house and do that all the way around.
And I didn't know any of these people from Adam.
They didn't really know me.
I would explain who my dad was and they would say, Yeah, do
the yard or not, scram, kid, you know?
And so end of the day, he came back.
How'd you do? You know, and I.
Well, I told him and and then those became that that was
the start of that. And so that was something that I did all
the way until I went into college and then had to pass that
on.
Glenn Harper: So did your does your dad, was he an entrepreneur or did he
work for a company or.
You just it's just the opposite of my dad was my dad worked
for General Motors, was a committeeman and labor union was
you know, my dad would work circles around anybody but, you
know, was was part of the club.
But from a union standpoint and, you know, I'd always ask
him like that, you know, you'll work anybody out.
How can you accept that you got the same raise as the guy
that's sleeping over there?
He's like, that's just that's how it is, you know?
And I'm like, I don't get.
It. Do you think he was probably yeah.
Do you think he probably saw something that he didn't want
you to go into that and he saw something in you and said,
Hey, I think Glen is going to be a little more self
sufficient and going to hustle on his own.
Do you think he saw that or he just was like messing with
you? Because, you know, dads do that kind of stuff.
They they never really know where they're coming from.
They're like spider monkeys, right?
Glenn Dunlap: But yeah, you know, my dad my dad has always worked and
worked hard. He did the same when he was in junior high in
high school. And, you know, it was kind of he was second of
six kids. And I think it was out of necessity for them.
It wasn't quite necessity for us.
But I think he also thought this was a good thing to to
build work ethic and and just to go after it and to, you
know, to to start early and to do those things.
And if I wasn't doing that, I was baling hay or hoeing
fields or whatever that it's a farming community so that
the things that you had around in that space.
But, but it really actually taught you early that I've got
this, this customer and I'm going to take care of them and
they're expecting me to do this and I need to get paid to
do this. So I need to ask them for money.
And so those were all the things that were kind of early
on. And so sort of I know it's that's part of the story, I
guess, is that, you know, I'm a piano player and I, you
know, when I was going through high school, I really
thought I was going to graduate and move to New York,
Nashville or LA and just try to make it music business.
And that was that was all I had my sights on.
And my parents were like, Yeah, you can do that, but we want
you to get a four year education first and then you can go
to New York, Nashville, or which that was best advice I've
gotten so far. So in college I worked at Cedar Point, which
is you guys surely so I worked at Cedar Point a couple of
summers playing shows, playing piano and shows up there.
And it was my second summer up there that, you know, you're
kind of on break. And all these performers that are singing
and there's a there's a guy there and he's 35 and I'm what,
1920? And he's teaching school, working at Cedar Point in
the summers and still trying to make it in the music
business. And it kind of had one of those moments where I'm
sitting there looking at this guy like, I don't want to be
that guy. I don't want to be that guy.
And so I went back to school and I was an entrepreneurship
major at State and I just went headlong I'd been doing
major at that point.
I just took the music theory minor that I'd already gotten
that. Yeah, that's that's something I'll always have.
But it's a heads down entrepreneurship degree from this
point forward. And not even really thinking I was going to
be knowing that I would start a business, but just that I
loved it. How did you pick starting?
Glenn Harper: How did you start?
How did you go to school for an entrepreneurial degree?
Does that even exist? We have that here.
I don't even know if that existed.
I mean, this is probably what back in the fifties?
Sixties. When did you go to school?
I don't even know.
Julie Smith: Yeah.
Glenn Harper: Any time. I think I saw you in that that one movie,
Hoosiers. Maybe you were playing in the game, and that was
in the small town.
Glenn Dunlap: See, Glenn, I prepped you.
I prepped you for this, okay?
Yeah.
Glenn Harper: No. Again, I don't even know that was an option, right?
I mean, how did you pick.
Glenn Dunlap: That small town was the small town in Indiana wasn't mine.
So. But I didn't know about it.
I didn't know about the entrepreneurship degree.
When you go to school, then then I don't know when they
have you declare now, but back then you had to do a rule of
11 or rule of nine. You had to finish all of this sort of
stuff in your first two years and then you declared your
major. So somewhere along the way, that was a guy that I
was in a group with at at Ball State.
We're out on the loading dock one day and he says, What are
you what are you studying? And I go, I don't know.
I haven't declared yet. And he goes, You need to be an
entrepreneurship major.
Like, I don't even know how to spell it and say, What are
you talking about? And he said, Yeah, he's my wife's
involved in this thing. And he said, Yeah, you go over
there and he goes, I got this.
You go over there right now and declare that as your major.
And I was like, I don't even know what it is.
So I went over there and looked at it and I was like, Well,
this sounds kind of interesting.
And then I signed up for the class.
I took the intro class, I bought as I bought the book, I
read it cover to cover the first line.
I'd never done that with a school textbook ever, and was
like, Wow, this is this is it.
This was what I wanted to do.
Glenn Harper: So that's so literally you must have had this is probably in
your genes somehow that you had to be an entrepreneur and
you had to figure out how to get it out of that.
Your dad was trying to get out this guy.
I mean, imagine if somebody said you should be in like, you
know, Roman art history or something.
I mean, where would you be today?
Think about that.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Or I would still be outside of the loop, but I would be
selling those little.
Glenn Harper: Selling the little guys.
Right. And God forbid you go in and get an accounting
degree. That'd be horrible.
I can't imagine what you two turned out to be.
Glenn Dunlap: You know, I tell you, the funny story about that is that I.
I absolutely hated accounting when I went through.
Glenn Harper: You're killing me. I'm sitting right here.
Glenn Dunlap: Well, I know, I know.
But the thing was, was that I'm in.
Show me the big picture first and then I can.
And I didn't get that when I went through, you know, your
debits and credits and t accounts.
And my whole thing was, oh my God, this is make work, this
is busy work. I'll hire somebody to do this crap.
I'll never do this in my life.
Yeah. Famous last words, right?
Surprise. But when I went to my when I went through the
senior class where we had to write a business plan and it
was pass or fail, you got you either got an A and
graduated, you got an F and had to stick around another
year because it didn't they didn't offer the course until
the spring the next year.
So a lot of pressure on to to get it done.
And when I built the forecast for that, it was kind of like
income statement, cash flow statement, balance sheet.
You know, I'm saying, wait a minute, this is the balance
sheet. This this comes from over here.
This is how those are interrelated.
And then all of a sudden it became like, well, this makes
sense to me now. It's like, you know, all the way through.
I hadn't got it because when the when the story problems
say, you know, let's say you're a payables clerk inside
Ford Motor Company, I'm like, I would jump off the highest
kill now.
Glenn Harper: Kill me now.
Glenn Dunlap: If that was I just couldn't I couldn't picture myself doing
it. And then I just I would shut it off.
I'm like not not going to be that guy.
Glenn Harper: Now, it's funny that accounting now, you know, there is the
actual date that has to happen and data entry and whatever.
But most accounts now it's that's not where your value is.
It's all in interpreting and trying to predict the future.
And again, you're helping with that by having those data
analytics to do so.
How does you know, we're I'm always fascinated with
entrepreneurs, how they get started and what they're doing,
how they do it. And and it just your story just is it's
amazing, right? It's it's very like everybody else is just
a whole different path. But, you know, what do you
actually, you know, do you have any bad habits that you
have to support? And that's why you went into an
entrepreneur system, because you can't really go and do a
real job and get paid a fixed amount.
You have to have that wiggle room to go do your thing and
have that freedom, I should say, perceived freedom.
What is it that you know?
When did you decide that? That's it.
I'm not working for the man anymore.
I'm doing my own thing.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. I think it was.
It was, you know.
I was at a consulting firm before I left and joined, and we
launched Milestone Advisors in 2003, and it was when I had
the fourth managing partner in in the beginning of the
fourth year that I was there.
The fourth different compensation structure and stuff.
And it just was this moving piece.
And candidly, it was they came to me and said, when I when
I started in this job, it was it was a consulting firm that
was owned by a law firm. So think about late, late
nineties. You had all the tech stuff that was going on.
You had all the high growth stuff and dotcom stuff that was
crazy, right? And so the law firms had all formed
consulting companies because they felt like they were
giving up all that revenue.
So this was a consulting company owned by a law firm.
And when I went to work there, they set my compensation
structure up, thinking that 90% of the revenue would come
as referrals to me from the law firm and 10% I would need
to go generate on my own.
And they came to me when the when the fourth managing
partner started, they came to me and said, hey, we did an
analysis of the revenue and you know how much you've
generated us? I don't know.
And they said, well, you know, we thought it was 9010.
Yeah, they go, Well, it sort of is.
But 93% of the revenue you've generated in 7% came from law
firms. And so then they go, Yeah, we want we want you to be
the sales guy for the firm.
And I went, Yeah, no.
Glenn Harper: I don't do sales. I'm not a sales guy.
Glenn Dunlap: I don't want to be, so I don't want me.
But what was going through my mind was, is if I can sell it
for you knuckleheads, I'm going to go sell it for myself.
So I literally kind of walked out of that room a little bit
bigger and went back to my office and I started calling
clients and said, Hey, if I leave here, would you follow
me? And they went and I didn't have a non-compete.
I didn't have anything holding me back.
So I went to one of the one of the founders of the firm and
said, I think it's time for me to go.
I'm going to go do my thing.
And he was fully supportive of it and helps me help me go.
So I think it was kind of one of those where it wasn't so
much sticking it to the man kind of stories, but more of
the confidence that it's time.
I was in my mid thirties, I had enough of a network and
confidence to go do this on my own and felt like I had a
book of business and I could.
It wasn't quite like sort of taking the safety net out from
underneath the high wire, but it was it was enough that I
felt enough, confident enough.
And I would also say this.
I had a quick conversation with my wife and she said, Yeah,
I think it's time. And I didn't wait for her to change her
mind.
Julie Smith: So throughout the process, you know, as you went through,
you said your mid thirties, did you have a mentor or anyone
that kind of helped, you know, like give you some
information to guide you down that you know, you got the
confidence from your success, but did you have any, anyone
else in your ear that kind of helped guide you that way?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, there were there were a few people.
I think when David Millard was one of the founders, he was
the named partner in the law firm.
And once one of the partners in the consulting company,
David, had been on the board of the Small.
I ran the Indianapolis Small Business Development Center,
and so we'd gotten to know each other through that.
And it was at a lunch that that I went to him to get some
career advice and he said, I want you to come to Concord.
And I said, I didn't.
This wasn't about me seeking a job for me because I know, I
know, but I want you. And then the whole time I was there,
he gave me an awful lot of confidence in what I was doing
because I had gone from on a Friday giving my services away
at the Small Business Center to on Monday, charging a
pretty decent fee on an hourly basis.
And so that can be a difficult shift.
And he just was right behind me the whole way and just
continued to support me.
And that was great mentor about about how to firms the
structure and set up and just kind of how to organize those
things and he was he was great from that perspective.
He was also great with with clients.
He was just one of those guys that could sit in a room and
have a conversation with the client and and give them the
good, the bad, the ugly and just learn from being able to
and the way he handled the client situations.
Glenn Harper: It's funny when you have when you do work for clients and
you have that relationship with them and they just
appreciate what you do and how you do it for them.
You don't realize how much equity that is, right, that
they'll follow you anywhere, you know, because they believe
in you, because you believed in them and you help them and
you're going they're going to help you.
And it's just a cool thing to have that relationship.
And you mentioned it a little earlier that, you know,
literally you're working for this other firm, you're still
working there, and you call them up and say, hey, if I go,
will you come? And they're all like, absolutely, we dig
you. I mean, that had to be a kind of a I don't want to say
humbling experience, but just had to be a real like, wow,
that's that's deep.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, it was. And it was it was quite a kind of time.
I mean, it was it gave you the confidence.
But you also knew then that they're counting on you and
you've got to deliver here in order to maintain these
relationships that they're not there.
They may be there because you're there, but they're also
going to also, you know, the pressure's on.
There's no other name behind this.
It's you. So so you've got to do it.
So, yeah, it's.
Glenn Harper: The buck stops there.
Glenn Dunlap: It's good.
Glenn Harper: Did you how long did it take you on your journey before you
realise that you couldn't do everything yourself and you
started implementing a team or strategic relationships and
things like that? Was that right away or do you wait a
little bit and try to struggle through it on your own?
How that how'd that play out?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. You know, I left and it's really funny because when I
left, one of the partners at the firm had laid a printout
of of a of a guy's website.
You remember when we used to print web pages?
Because that was how we expected.
Yeah. So there was a printout of a web page of a guy that
he's like, you know, you ought to get to know this guy.
And so I had already scheduled a meeting with with him, and
he had just started his own thing.
And I was starting my own thing.
And after we met, we kind of, you know, maybe we got to do
this together because there's you've got a book.
I've got a book. We had some overlap and the things that we
were doing. But he was a CPA and I'm not.
So we brought some of those things together.
And so as we kind of talked about that, we formed.
But then we also realized that we both needed.
You know, to to to build some leverage into the model
because it was just that roller coaster.
If you're on your own, your head's down on projects and you
may. It may be great revenue, but you finish those projects
and you look up and you go, Oh, crap, there's.
What do I do now?
So we like we've got to we've got to build an entity almost
right of way. So we hired two people, a CPA that was a stay
at home mom that wanted some some extra hours to be able to
get get her kids on the bus in the morning and be there
when they get it. Got off the bus.
But she didn't want to go back in public accounting, so she
came to work for us. And then the guy that had worked for
me for a couple of years at the other firm, that was also
an entrepreneurship major.
And so we hired two people the same day and then just
continue to build from there.
But it was almost right away.
We recognize that if we don't build leverage into the
system, it will just be the same size forever.
Glenn Harper: Do you just magically have all this money that you just hire
to people like that on the same day?
I mean, what how does that even happen?
Glenn Dunlap: We had we had we had projects that that we were able to
engage them on right away.
Beth, who started with this on a on a she started hourly,
part time. So she was only getting paid when she worked.
Bill, the guy that came with me, he said when I left, he
said, I don't know what you're going to do, but I'm going
to I'll go with you, whatever, and just take care of me
however you can. So we it was just two people that kind of
saw what we're doing and said, you know, yeah, just take
care of me, you know? And they did.
And they came in and, you know, we were we were super
grateful for folks like that.
Glenn Harper: You figure as an entrepreneur, like, you probably made that
decision sooner than most.
And at that point in time, when you realize that there's
people that want to be part of what you're doing and and
help you achieve what you want as a collective, the whole
in yourself, and help them achieve something greater.
I mean, you would have sold a kidney literally to hire
somebody at that moment in time because most yeah, most
entrepreneurs, they're just like, oh, I can't afford, I
can't afford, I can't they never can afford it.
So it's sort of like you got to either you got to do it or
you're just never going to do it. So I applaud you for
making that decision. That's a tough decision when you're
bank counts negative and you're like, Well, I guess we got
to go all in. And a lot of people don't do that.
If you're listening to this podcast, you know, don't make
foolish decisions, but you've got to believe in what you're
doing. You've got to believe you got the right people.
And, you know, price is what you pay, values what you get,
and you've got to make those decisions that will help get
you to the next level.
Glenn Dunlap: You know, we joke, Glenn, about the about in our in our app
we have you can only put in financial statement
information, but we have some some survey questions that
will help you understand, you know, kind of as you're doing
planning so your advisor can work through this with you.
So you can say, you know, what are your short term like?
What do you expect sales to do over the next year or what
do you expect employee employment levels and all these
things? Or so?
What are your expectations, your priorities, your concerns?
And it's you know, we rarely get entrepreneurs that think
that the 2 to 3 years is is going to be flat or down.
That's almost always some level of up.
Right. And there's some level of optimism that we as
entrepreneurs just sort of have to have or otherwise we
wouldn't do what we do.
Glenn Harper: Mandatory.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. So I think that was when we launched in 2003.
We thought everything was going to be up into the right.
Glenn Harper: Well, it's still right and it went there.
Absolutely. It just took a little bit.
Glenn Dunlap: That's right.
Glenn Harper: Do you have, you know, most entrepreneurs, they have this,
you know, some kind of superpower that basically sets them
apart from their competition or everybody else, because
it's just they got this shtick that there's this thing.
Did you even have you evaluated yourself and thought about
what your superpower is?
Is it client communication?
Is it risk taking?
Is it, you know, concerted effort?
Is it just who you just got some swag?
What do you think that thing is that separates you?
That kind of makes you the successful entrepreneur that you
are?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, I don't.
I think if there's anything, it's a willingness to ask that
stupid question. It served me well when I was working with
clients in a in a consultative situation.
Look, maybe I don't understand this.
Help me help me understand this.
And I don't know your business as well as you, but can you
tell me this or can that that I'm having trouble lining
that up. Help me make sense of that.
But I do the same thing now with as we're delivering things
from a from a software perspective.
You know, I'll sit with clients that are using the app and
then it's either a round of boardroom or on a zoom call or
whatever, and you'll see people's reaction.
And I'll go, I know you're thinking about something or help
me understand what you're thinking about.
Or That doesn't seem like that sat right with you.
What's what are your what are you thinking about there?
Or how can we make this report better?
What are you thinking about? And it's just those things
that our best ideas I don't I don't have the sort of.
Right. They're not invented here syndrome.
It's like if somebody tells me, you know, I had I had a
prospect the other day who's becoming a client.
They've told me they're ready to move forward, but said, I
think you've solved the problem for the CPA, but I don't
think you've solved it for their client yet.
And that hurt.
You know, that was one of those where I was like, oh, what?
You know, I'm like, what do you mean?
And so. And so then you have to go.
You can't. You can't get all wrapped up.
This is you know, they didn't just tell you your baby's
ugly. There's something here.
So it's like, okay, so help me understand that.
What do you mean by that? Let's go.
Let's dig into it. And, you know, I think we've I think as
a result of that, our team is about ready to push one of
our I think one of our best updates to the application that
as a result of that conversation six months ago and it's it
it took me three months to figure out how to solve that
problem that but it was one of those where 4:00 in the
morning I wake up and go, you know, we can do it.
And I'm slack in our team and they're like, Hey, you got to
stop slacking. It's at 4 a.m.
like, welcome. What else is is.
Glenn Harper: And nobody else works. 24 seven.
Yeah. Come on, everybody.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, that's that's it's it's just listening and asking
questions and being willing to just make those changes.
I think that's the if there's anything that I would credit
our success to.
Julie Smith: What I think I hear you saying, which I think has been a
common theme on our podcast, is you used information to
provide that you saw the opportunity and you were able to
provide the solution. So you didn't see it as you weren't
able to do something or a failure.
We hate that word, but you saw it as an opportunity and you
were able then to provide the solution, which I think is
amazing. It's a great superpower.
Glenn Harper: It is. And I think the second thing that you probably did,
too, is, you know, when you walk into a room, you kind of
know what you're talking about.
But it isn't about that.
It's about learning something.
Right? And you've got to listen to what people want and
what they need. And as an entrepreneur, your brain's going
1000 miles an hour anyway.
It never shuts off.
And all you're you're just gathering data.
You're just like a combine. Just bring it all in, and then
you're going to spit out a great product after it.
And I think that's what you're doing, right?
I mean, you're listening instead of just talking.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. And it's hard. It's hard.
I'm not great at all of those things all the time.
You know, I love product.
I love I think it's I think it's great.
And that's one of the challenges is being being the
inventor, I guess, of the in thinking of of wanting to be
able to share that story and tell that it's really hard to
sort of set that aside.
And and it's not about that.
It's about the solution for them and how we can help them
solve problems. And, you know, it's it's tough.
You know, you go through all those different selling things
about helping people understand how sick they are before
they need the solution. Right.
Or how big is the state, the problem.
And nobody likes to be uncomfortable, especially, you know,
if you start telling people things that you see wrong or
that you've got to earn that.
So there's there's time in that, but it's when you do sort
of get out of the way and let that take care of itself,
then it works.
Glenn Harper: Do you there's a one trick more trick question because I
love those. Is there is what's the end game?
Are you like, oh, when I hit 90, I'm going to retire and
you know, I only want to make 100 million or is it going to
make 100 billion?
What's your end game or do you even have one?
I know, I know the answer, but go ahead and we'll try it.
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah, you know. Well, tell me what the answer should be
first. I mean.
Glenn Harper: That's what a good accountant does.
Right. What do you want the answer to be now?
I think the end game generally is there is no end game.
You just you enjoy what you do.
You love what you do. You're helping people.
The money probably doesn't really matter.
I mean, it's important, but it's not why you do it.
And you're helping people.
You have it. You get up in the morning going out there and
slaying dragons and everybody's thankful for what you do
for them. Why would you ever stop?
So the only question really on that point, I'm guessing
that's the case. And then if would you ever go into other
businesses, you're how far can this business go that you're
in these two?
Glenn Dunlap: So I absolutely agree with everything you just said.
I love what I do.
You know, I would I'd be happy doing this the rest of my
life. So I it's kind of one of those things when when you
get asked the question about the endgame, it's kind of
like, does it have to have the end?
I don't want to stop. But I think the challenge for us in
the software company is that it's sort of an up or out push
in software that if you're not continuing to, you see it
all the time. When somebody builds a lifestyle software
company and they stop developing, then they get passed by
people that are innovative and they just and all of a
sudden what they have is a lifestyle.
Business is no longer providing them that same lifestyle.
So. So it's it's a it's a growth plan for us.
And we're we're looking at the different opportunities that
we can take there. So we're in the CPA space.
We've got some some announcements that we'll be making
later this year that just after the busy season, that will
be some some big opportunities for us to continue to expand
and go deeper and wider in that accounting space.
And we'll continue to do that.
But there are other users of this data, too, that we have
our eyes on that.
And just thinking about like, how can we how can we
transition that? If, you know, today, I would say that our
our our mission is to really help CPAs and their clients to
make better decisions. And if you if you back that up it
eventually to be that it's really about the business owners
and their advisors. And it's a broader set that would be of
people. It could be investors.
So private equity, venture capital, angel investors, there
are lenders, the bank and non-bank lenders that would be
interested in having this kind of data to help them make
better decisions and be able to pass it on to their clients
and use in different ways.
So we're looking at some of those other markets, but for
now, we know we're here with CPAs for for really a couple
of reasons. I mean, one, they have a real need for this and
they.
Glenn Harper: Also really cool. Cpas are really cool.
And you want to hang with them. I get it.
I understand that.
Glenn Dunlap: What else would you want to spend your time?
Glenn Harper: I can't think of any place better.
Glenn Dunlap: So it's right here.
Glenn Harper: Right there. You know what's funny about what you said is
and that's what I love about entrepreneurs, literally.
You've got these two businesses, they're doing what they
do, but you literally have like 12,000 other ideas that are
just floating around out there that you need to attack and
slay. And and as an entrepreneur, the key thing, and I
think that's what Glen is saying is, you know, figure out
what you're doing, make sure you got that down, and then
methodically go through the next steps.
Don't try to do everything at once because you'll never get
anything done. You've got to just get the one thing done
and just keep moving on.
Would you agree with that? That that that comment?
Glenn Dunlap: Yeah. Let me ask you about mentors earlier.
Larry Baker is one of my best mentors.
And Larry and I talked about I mean, he made me read The
Crossing the Chasm, and we had to go through that a lot.
And when you read that, there's the whole comparison.
It's the beachhead. You've got to you've got to focus on
winning this beachhead.
You've got to win this victory.
And then you can focus on the other things.
And that's the crossing the chasm approach is, is that you
can't you know, I think they also use the bowling pin
analogy that you can't focus on the ten pin.
You've got to focus on the lead pin.
And for us, the CPA space is that lead pin.
And by striking it and striking it well, it will help us to
to get the other pins to fall.
And we chose CB's because of the volume of data that's
there. But we also chose it because the veracity and volume
and veracity, when you think about who has the most trusted
source of data, and that's one of the challenges with the
other data sources that are out there.
You know, they're they're scrambling to get data.
If you look at some of the places where you can submit your
own data to it, I mean, that's that's not not the same.
And so we're getting, you know, and we don't want to bolt
into accounting applications and just pull in everybody's
QuickBooks files because and not to beat up a QuickBooks,
but it's more about the users of that in that, you know, in
our firm we were getting called in where nobody had touched
their files for two weeks, two months or two years and
cleaning that stuff up. I don't want that data coming into
the app. I only want data that CPA firms are, you know,
through their accounting services or closing the books.
And we've got solid data that's coming into the app every
month. So so we've very specifically chosen the path to get
a large amount of reliable data.
And that's that's really why we're why we started here.
Glenn Harper: As an entrepreneur is.
And at this point in your in your journey, is there
something you could tell yourself 20 years ago if you just
would have done this or if you just would have changed this
or just tweak that, you would be in a better position than
you are now, whether it's getting some different advice,
making a decision quicker, hiring, getting a mentor in
there, is there something that you're like, man, if I just
did that one thing, do you have you have anything like
that?
Glenn Dunlap: It's interesting. I think for me personally, I don't.
I think writing and communicating are two of the toughest
things for me. My just having this conversation with my
youngest daughter last night about my SAT scores, my math
scores, verbal scores were just completely opposite.
And I think for me, being able to storytel and do those
things I think really well would have suited me really
well. From a personal standpoint, from a business
standpoint, I think I think stepping back and saying like.
We talked about the two people that we hired right away, I
think, in when we launched Milestone Advisors.
But I think, you know, looking at your skill sets and
saying, okay, who else needs to be a part of this founding
team? Who else needs to be a part of this to sort of be
there and believe in this thing and to move forward with
this? I think that's a that's a really key thing because
when you do that hard assessment of your own skills and
what you have, it's when you launch something like this,
it's helpful to have a team of people who are very
complementary and skill set and are baptized with their
sword out of the water kind of thing that they're ready to
charge. Really?
Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
Glenn Harper: So I think probably the one of the funny things is your
first experience of communication, selling or to these old
guys that were mad that you were mowing their grass, they
didn't want to talk to you anyway, you know?
And so it probably took a while to get over that, to like,
hey, wait a minute, people really do want to talk.
They don't want to get off my lawn, kid.
So that's probably would be probably is something that was
helpful.
Glenn Dunlap: You know, one of the things that I think that I had.
You know, not so good mentors.
Think about the transition now when you think about it.
So I spend a lot of time in groups of CPA firms that are
talking about the challenge with, you know, working with
millennials and how do they handle this workforce and all
those things. And there's, there's.
When I started, I'm not 90, but I did start a while ago
working. And one of the things with that is that you you
did whatever the boss told you to do and you did it, and
you stayed as long as it took, and you did whatever it took
to get the job done. And it was just kind of like that was
the expectation. You went into it a lot.
I think I lived to work in a lot of ways and I think this
generation works to live and so there's a whole shift in
that. But the thing that I hear a lot of people doing right
now is is sort of sugarcoating it and doing all the stuff
that, you know, trying to make it work so nice and pleasing
and all that stuff. And I, I get it.
I mean, I don't it shouldn't be, you know, you shouldn't
have to slug through everything every day.
But the flip side of that is, is that I think people are
looking for a challenge.
They want to be part of something that's bigger.
And it's it's not so much that people want to be under the
thumbscrews that I kind of felt like I grew up in that it
was like scared of the boss and not knowing, you know, all
those things that they want to be a part of it and they
want to be a part of something bigger.
And and, you know, they'll do hard stuff, they'll work and
they'll accomplish major things.
So, you know, one of the things that happened to us, we
were doing only annual financial statement analysis going
into the pandemic.
So beginning of 2020, we only had annual stuff.
And when the pandemic hit, things were shutting down.
The economy is going to hell in a handbasket.
Nobody knew what was going to happen.
And and all of a sudden, at the beginning of March, as the
wheels are falling off of this stuff, I went, Oh, nobody is
going to load anything in and look backwards at 12 3119
because they're worried about payroll next week, next
month, whatever they don't.
And so it was kind of what are we going to do to survive?
And I came back to our team and said, we have to release a
monthly version of our app within the next four weeks.
And the team said, we can't do it.
And I said, Well, then we need to turn off the lights and
go home and we're done.
And they went, Huh?
And I said, We're we will be at best irrelevant for the
next year, if not longer.
And we have to make this transition.
It was like one of those things where we we had to do it.
And I said I said, we have to figure this out.
And they all kind of looked at each other and, yeah, we'll
do it. And it was one of those things where they they I
told them 415 was the deadline.
And you know why, obviously.
But we flipped the switch and released the monthly version
of our app on April 17, 2020.
And then we went to all of our clients and we said, you
know, you're using this with 20% of your of your client
base. We're turning it all on for every single one of your
clients. We want to be part of the solution, not part of
the problem. So we're turning it on, use it for the next
six months and help your clients get through this.
And it was really kind of that transition, but it was also
because you go to the team and you go, look, this is part
of a bigger thing. This is, you know, this we have to do
this and not just for our survival, but also we want to be
part of the solution for the CPA firms and their clients
and help them through this.
And, you know, once they got their heads kind of wrapped
around that piece, they they worked tons of hours in and
completed things. It was a it was a fantastic effort.
But, you know, I didn't put a foosball table in to make
happy for them. Was like, you know, here's here's where we
got to go and, you know, let's go together.
And when we do this, we'll get to the other side and it'll
be it'll be good. And that that not only saved us, but in
the sense that we still had a viable, relevant product that
we could continue to sell.
But it's it's enabled our our growth for 21 and 22.
Julie Smith: I think, you know, Glenn and I agree on that same concept.
Like, you have to be transparent and you have to
communicate the why. They have to understand what they're
going towards.
And once they wrap their head around that, you'd be
interested what they're willing to put their head down and
do. So I think you you described that exactly to a tee.
Glenn Harper: We definitely call that leadership.
And then you lead by example and you just laid it out and
said, look, if you don't if we don't do this, we're out of
business and people would rather work towards something and
work for a common goal than just come up and punch the
clock so that that's what it's all about.
So any entrepreneurs listen to this.
I hope you get a lot of good stuff out of here.
Glenn, I appreciate you taking some time with us today.
And I wish you wish you luck on the rest of your day in
Indianapolis. And and hopefully we'll get some more snow
coming your way, which would be great, because that means
we're going to get it then it's all good.
Well, thanks again to Glenn Harper and Julie Smith.