Lisa Marie Rankin [00:00:00]:

In today's episode, I'm thrilled to introduce you to Vanessa Bennett. She's a depth psychotherapist, author and facilitator. Vanessa helps people break cycles of self abandonment, navigate codependency, recovery, and reconnect to who they are beneath their conditioning. We had such a fascinating conversation on so many somewhat controversial topics like what's the difference between spiritual bypassing and wallowing in your wounds? Is self obsession a form of mental illness? Why we love to diagnose and label all that ails, and the truth about motherhood and the patriarchy. I know you're going to love this thought provoking episode, so let's dive right in.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:00:42]:

Hello, beautiful listeners, and welcome back to the Goddess School podcast. So today I am very excited to introduce you to Vanessa Bennett. So she is a depth therapist, author, and she is also a facilitator. And I think I first came across Vanessa's work and I want to say it was probably back in like 2019 on Medium where you had written a post on spiritual bypassing.

Vanessa Bennett [00:01:05]:

Wow.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:01:06]:

That was like right when I got on medium as well too. So in a really creepy sort of way, I feel like I almost know you since it's been so long and I have been following your work. So I am just thrilled to have you on because in my community we focus a lot with myth and stories and Jungian concepts and principles.

Vanessa Bennett [00:01:24]:

And I know you do a lot.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:01:25]:

Of work with depth psychology and a little bit more on the therapeutic side. But I think we're going to have a really great conversation and there's been a few topics that have been on my mind lately and I'm just like dying to get your feedback. But let me take a break and I would love it if. Vanessa, thank you for being on. If you could just take a moment, maybe introduce yourself and a little bit about your approach.

Vanessa Bennett [00:01:45]:

Yeah. Wow. First of all, that is a blast from the past. Yeah, how funny. Right? Like back in 2019, 2018, just kind of writing what comes up and putting it out there into the ether and then suddenly. Yeah, that article got a ton of traction, which, you know, tells me something about kind of where we were and what was resonating. And I think people then and now are still very activated by this whole, like, positive, everything's gotta be positive, vibes only kind of spiritual community.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:02:14]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:02:15]:

And the fact that got passed around that much just kind of cements it in that way. Yeah. So like you said, I'm a depth psychotherapist. My background is in depth psychology and I Am an author. I'm a mother. I'm a community leader. All the things right as we do, spinning all the plates. And I've been kind of on a mission since God, I guess, 2019, 2020.

Vanessa Bennett [00:02:38]:

Two things. One, codependency recovery, which has really been like the flag that I've waved for a long time. And then it's transitioned into also working with mothers, partners of mothers, and really helping people understand the massive transition that is right in. In a. In a woman's life. And then also, how does that overlap with our codependency recovery journey?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:02:59]:

Yeah. Great. Oh, thank you. And thank you for all of the work that. That you're doing. And I know that you're a fairly new mother as well, too, from what I see on the interwebs.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:03:09]:

So one of the questions that I wanted to start with was just that article, like, spiritual bypassing. And I. I feel like we use that phrase a lot. So I would love to get your, you know, your definition of it, but I would also love to get your take on what's the difference between spiritual bypassing and then just wallowing in our stories and just, you know, kind of staying on this healing cycle forever. Like, to me, there does seem to be a difference between, like, we don't want a spiritual bypass, but we also don't want to wallow.

Vanessa Bennett [00:03:41]:

Yeah. You know, it's so funny. I mean, I don't really believe in coincidence, but it's so funny that you're asking this question, because I was just having this conversation last night with a friend where we were talking about how I really believe that the two sides of the spectrum are actually two kind of sides of the same coin when it comes to bypassing. So this idea of kind of constantly being in the land of, like, spiritual platitudes, kind of hopping from practice to practice, never really dropping in, never really feeling and processing emotion. I see it a lot with friends of mine and just in our community at large, how we keep ourselves so busy that we never have time to actually feel or process what's going on in our lives. Right. So that is a form of bypassing. But on the other side of that extreme, what I was just talking about last night with my friend was I also can see how, let's say depression, for example, within the therapeutic community, you know, we call depression, there's this term navel gazing, because depression can be.

Vanessa Bennett [00:04:38]:

It's very turned inward. Right. And when you're in a state of depression, it's really hard for you to kind of look Outside of yourself. And what we were talking is how even that, in my opinion, can be a form of bypassing. Because what happens is you're so consumed, energetically, spiritually, emotionally, that you're also not really processing. You're also not really working through what's going on. Right. Like, you're staying so deeply in the muck that that actually in itself also becomes a form of bypassing.

Vanessa Bennett [00:05:10]:

So if I had to give this kind of broader definition, to me, it's really any state that we find ourselves in that becomes a way that we don't have to look at ourselves truly. We don't have to work through what's going on. We don't have to feel the range of emotions.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:05:27]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:05:27]:

All of the emotions. And we don't have to really, like, be engaged in our life in a real, like, tangible, embodied way.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:05:33]:

Yeah. Oh, I like that. Thank you. And I like how it can go either way. Because, you know, as I was reflecting on that, and I think for a good portion of my life, I probably will say that I was a spiritual bypasser. You know, like, let me just try to, you know, find. Find the silver lining in this. Right.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:05:48]:

And, like, let me move forward. And I remember, like, one of the things that I would say, like, if things were really troublesome to me was like, oh, well, other people have it worse. But it's true, other people do have it worse. And I actually do feel that gives it some perspective sometimes.

Vanessa Bennett [00:06:04]:

Like, am I really that upset about that?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:06:05]:

I mean, there's a lot of other things going on, like, what are your thoughts? Like, I mean, sometimes these platitudes, but sometimes they actually work, and they're actually true. And it seems like they are the bigger perspective.

Vanessa Bennett [00:06:17]:

I think that they are helpful when they are sprinkled in amongst the work. Right. I think that they are not helpful when that becomes the only work, if you will. And so, you know, yeah, I don't believe that generally comparative suffering is helpful for us, But I also believe that every once in a while it is important to kind of pull your head up and go, oh, shit. Actually, it could be worse than what it is right now. And so when that is mixed in to. I just said this the other day to somebody about something going on in my life, and I'm like, yes. And I'm also in the muck of my work, and I'm, you know, I've had a huge year.

Vanessa Bennett [00:06:57]:

And, you know, we lost our home in the fires in L. A in January, and we've moved countries and there's a lot of shit happening in my life and I've. I'm in active therapy and I'm doing a lot of somatic processing and you know, medicine journeys and like things to really work through a lot of the trauma that's gone on. So I am actively in the trenches of feeling the feelings and working through them. So every once in a while for me to like pull my head up and go. Yeah. And also your life is pretty fucking great. Like that is important sometimes, but I'm not doing it all the time.

Vanessa Bennett [00:07:27]:

You know what I mean?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:07:28]:

Yes. Yeah. And I like that. And I do like that there's a fusing with. Fusing's not the right word. That was actually my next question. But being able to, like you said, pop your head out of it and kind of look at it from maybe a larger perspective.

Vanessa Bennett [00:07:42]:

That's right.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:07:43]:

Because the other thing that I have heard, and I think I'm almost hesitant because I know sometimes there can be, can be associations with this name. But Jordan Peterson has said that self obsession is a form of mental illness. So is there ever an. A moment where it's like I've spent too much time thinking about my problems that I should probably just start to move forward?

Vanessa Bennett [00:08:05]:

Yes, a thousand percent, yes. You know, there's a reason why in the 12 step community the idea of volunteer work and being of service is such a huge tenet. Because addiction and look, we could put all of ourselves in the category of addicts in some way. I truly believe that we are all addicts in some way. Right. Like just pick your poison. You know, most peoples are people and shopping and you know, social media doesn't necessarily have to be a substance, but addiction is a very self absorbed way of living. One of the most self absorbed, actually.

Vanessa Bennett [00:08:42]:

And so there's a reason again why 12 step says like you need to be in service of others. It essentially like creates this hole for your head to pop up and say, what else is going on? Who do I need to serve today that is worse off than me?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:08:55]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:08:55]:

Because focusing outward is a really good way to like, I don't know, check yourself. I suppose.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:09:00]:

Yeah. Oh, that. I'm so glad you brought that up. And I think that's just important too. And I actually didn't, I didn't realize that. I completely agree that I think we are all addicts in some way. And so that's very relevant. But I didn't realize that the 12 step programs actually had that outward focus, which I think is really important as well too.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:09:18]:

Yeah. Great.

Vanessa Bennett [00:09:19]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:09:19]:

So how does somebody know, like, how does somebody navigate when it's like, when am I supposed to be turned inward to do the work? Or maybe when have I stayed there too long? Are there any, like, key indicators?

Vanessa Bennett [00:09:31]:

Hmm, that's a good question. I guess what's coming up for me when I'm thinking about that question is for myself. I was leading a group the other day, and we were talking about how we have to do the work alone, like it's our work to do, and yet we're not doing it in isolation. And so there's such a balance between being in community and the importance of being witnessed. Right. Held and seen by your community while you're doing the work, but also remembering that the work is yours to do and no one else can do it for you. And so I think it's really important for everybody to have a daily practice of contemplation that could look different. It doesn't have to be a seated meditation practice for 30 minutes.

Vanessa Bennett [00:10:11]:

Cool. If you have the time. I have not found that time since I had a kid. So for me, I tend to find, you know, mothering as a form of meditation or physical movement as a form of meditation and contemplation. Right. But ideally, I think everybody should have a moment for silent contemplation. Then I think we also need to make sure that we are daily getting the interaction with community and having this feeling again of being witnessed and being held by others. That's something that we've really been, you know, totally cut off from community in general.

Vanessa Bennett [00:10:43]:

And I think it really is one of the biggest components to some of the biggest mental health crises that we're facing right now.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:10:51]:

Yeah. Oh, I completely agree. And I do. I think women coming together in community. I host some book clubs and programs, and it's just there's really a power when women can share and be vulnerable and seen and just be witnessed without. Without being unfair that I'm going to say something that's going to be disturbing. I think that's totally where the healing comes. And I love the way that you framed, like, we need to do the work on our own, but we also need to be witnessed by others as we're doing that.

Vanessa Bennett [00:11:20]:

That's.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:11:20]:

That's beautiful.

Vanessa Bennett [00:11:21]:

Yeah. Sometimes you have to. You know, even group work, I think, is so powerful, like you were saying, for that reason, because you start to believe that you're the only one going through it. You start to believe there's something wrong with you, you know, that you're broken and that that's why you're here struggling with this. And the first time you hear yourself in somebody else's story, it completely shifts that perspective, and you start to awaken to the idea that we're all so much more similar than we are different. And it really takes the shame out of whatever you're working with. And so the second the shame is taken out of it, that's where the momentum comes into play. That's when you start going, oh, I can actually work on this.

Vanessa Bennett [00:11:55]:

I can actually handle this. You know, I can change. Change this part of myself, or I can work on new habits, or I can, you know, tweak this relational aspect that I've been, you know, struggling with, because it's not about me being messed up. And so that. That, like, that click right where you see yourself in somebody else when somebody's mirroring you back to you, It's. It's huge. It can be life changing.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:12:16]:

It really is. You quickly see that we are so much more alike than we are different. Like, even if you have a very unique or specific challenge that you think you're going through, it's not that unique and it's not that specific. There's so many other women, and we all are going through something somewhat similar. So it is magical. Another thing that I wanted to talk to you about. You mentioned you work with codependency, and I've also seen you write about attachment styles. And definitely for most of my life, I have identified as anxiously attached or insecure attachment.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:12:49]:

And, you know, I feel I've been in a fantastic relationship for a long time, so it. It's not really triggered anymore. But it also got me thinking where I feel like it's pretty big in the zeitgeist right now. Attachment styles. Is it really, like, are people that anxious? Or could we just say the dating culture now is very anxiety inducing, and, like, are we looking in the wrong direction? Like, maybe we were never meant to be swiped left or swiped right. Maybe it's just. That's anxiety inducing. And it's not an inherent flaw in our psyche or anything, but it's just the culture that we're in.

Vanessa Bennett [00:13:26]:

Yeah, I mean, I think even past, like, dating culture is anxiety inducing. The world that we live in is anxiety inducing. The world that we live in right now is not conducive to a regulated nervous system in any way. And as a matter of fact, it functions on the back of dysregulated nervous systems. Because if we were regulated and we were kind of. We went inward and we knew who we were, and we had this solid sense of self, and we could rely on ourselves and we felt stable in that way, we wouldn't be looking outside of ourselves to a person, to the newest, fanciest car, to the newest, fanciest iPhone, to make us feel like we were enough. Right. So we have to understand that these, whether we're talking about dating apps, whether we're talking about social media, whatever it is, they are designed specifically to keep us dysregulated, to keep us more controllable.

Vanessa Bennett [00:14:13]:

Right. Also, I talk a lot about attachment styles in the sense of they are not fixed. It's a spectrum. And I. I don't love when people are like, I am anxiously attached. I am an avoidant.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:14:25]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:14:25]:

Because so often I'm like, well, in this dynamic, you are. But that doesn't necessarily mean that that's who and what you are forever and ever. I mean, there are definitely other dynamics in my life where I can show up a little bit more anxiously. You know, I tend to show up a little bit more avoidant in my romantic relationships. I tended to show up a little bit more anxious in my friendships. And so it really just depends on the. The interaction of energies, like, who am I here engaging with? What's. What's their energy? Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:14:54]:

And how am I responding to that? So I don't think we should kind of shackle ourselves to being in these. These black and white boxes. I actually don't think it's helpful. I think it's great to learn about yourself, but once it becomes something where it becomes like this. This box or this stamp of, like, who I am, this identity, I find it can be really the opposite of helpful when you're trying to understand yourself.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:15:15]:

Yeah. Oh, I totally agree. And that's something that, you know, in my community, we talk a lot about, too, is kind of when are we fusing with a label or, like a diagnosis? And it's keeping us stuck, and it's not giving us an opportunity to expand, to individuate. One of the things that I think, like, if we're kind of thinking of that label or diagnosis, because I have so many women too, in my community, that will be like, I discovered on TikTok that I have ADD, and it's like, well, did you discover it on TikTok or did TikTok cause it? And like, we're in a very much culture. We want to label every time we don't feel good or we're not getting the things done. And I'm not saying that this is always the case, but I think it is a lot is there. What are your thoughts on that? Have we gotten into a culture where we want to diagnose like every like emotion?

Vanessa Bennett [00:16:03]:

Yeah, I mean I think it makes us feel safe. I think labeling and diagnosing, again, even the attachment style, like we were just saying, I think it makes us feel safe to be like, well, I understand this about myself. You know, I think labels and diagnoses actually give us some sense of control in what we know is absolutely a lack of control. Like that is just the universe. Right. It's chaos. And so I, I do find it is a little bit of a chicken or egg conversation to your point. You know, I will say what I have found fascinating around this like ADHD conversation.

Vanessa Bennett [00:16:32]:

What's so interesting is we have a generation of women who for the first time we have access to other women, a community. Right. That has, have come together via social media. We have access to information that we didn't have access to prior. You know, we are a generation of, I'm 41, so let's say like the millennial, elder millennial, Gen X generation. We are a generation of women in particular who have grown up with every diagnoses, whether we're talking mental health, medical, having always been researched and established on men and boys. And so, you know, I actually think there is something to this idea that women are finding themselves in these communities and saying, oh my God, that's me. Oh my God.

Vanessa Bennett [00:17:16]:

I relate to that. Right. To your point, there's always a spectrum. It can always swing a little bit too far into like rigidity. And yet I think that there might be some empowering aspect to joining together for the first time and saying, hey, like I think we should talk about this.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:17:33]:

Yeah, it's interesting that I agree that I like how it has opened it up and it's making people more aware. I guess I still, I kind of want to go back and maybe it's like the anxious attachment and even the ADHD are somewhat, I think, good examples. Like is it something that I. And I guess we always need to work on it, but is the advice not that I need to do maybe inner child work, but maybe I don't belong on dating apps. Maybe I should try to meet somebody at the gym or the yoga studio. Maybe the reason that I am so scattered and I can't get anything to done is because I spend my free time scrolling through 60 minute short term video content that are we trying. I worry people are rationalizing like how they're failing and not making the lifestyle changes that they need because they think it's like just, oh, this is just the way I am. And I agree.

Vanessa Bennett [00:18:24]:

I mean, I think also to make those bigger changes, that that's a lot harder.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:18:27]:

Yes.

Vanessa Bennett [00:18:28]:

Right. I mean, we. We live in a culture of fast fixes, and we live in a culture of, you know, promised miracle drugs, and we live in a culture of comfort. You know, we are creatures of comfort. It's too hot, you put the AC on. It's too cold, you put the heat on. We're not really comfortable with struggling in any way. And so even going back to the very beginning of our conversation around bypassing, I mean, I, again, I think we have to pull back and see the social kind of structure at large.

Vanessa Bennett [00:18:56]:

Right. And I don't know that we're ever going to be able to say, like, it's clearly defined as, like, this is me and this is the culture I live in. Because it's kind of a little bit like asking a fish to know it's in water.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:19:07]:

Exactly. Yeah.

Vanessa Bennett [00:19:08]:

But I do think that at the end of the day, most people. And this is not like a personal failure. I think we're humans. I think most people are going to go the easier route. And the easier route is usually going to be, here's my label, here's the pill. You know, I don't want to actually do the hard changes that are required. I mean, as a therapist, the number of times I'll be working with a client, we'll be working on the same thing for what seems like ever. Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:19:34]:

And they're making small changes in progress over here, but they're, you know, still not working out. They're still not eating healthy. They're still not, you know, putting effort into building community. They're still not. They're showing up and they're seeing me once a week. And that's great. We're making progress. But it's such tiny progress because they're not really looking at the whole, you know, and I think even that's an indicator of that, which is it actually takes a lot of effort to.

Vanessa Bennett [00:20:02]:

To really make some of these bigger changes.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:20:05]:

Yeah, it really does take a lot of effort. So, yeah, it can be easier to kind of want to go the other way or so for all of you beautiful women listening. Yeah.

Vanessa Bennett [00:20:15]:

Put in the.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:20:16]:

Put in the effort. There. There's more to it than that.

Vanessa Bennett [00:20:18]:

Yeah. And also, like, I. I mean, I get it. I'm a therapist, so I kind of can nerd out on, like, Ooh, you know, this is exciting. Like, let's get in there and dig this up. And most people don't look at it that way, but I. I really wish that as a culture, we started looking at this, like, air quote work as it's. It can actually be really exciting, and it can actually be really fun.

Vanessa Bennett [00:20:39]:

Right? I mean, yes, it's hard, and it can be hard, and it can be heavy sometimes or. And. But there's excitement to that, right? And so it reminds me of even, like, how I'm raising my daughter to. To really lean into the, like, unknown or really lean into what feels like it could be scary and be like, but isn't that kind of exciting, right, that we don't know the answer? I mean, these are the kind of spiritual conversations we're having right now. And I'm always like, nobody really knows. Isn't that so cool? You know, that we don't have a concrete answer. Because I just think in general, as a culture, we're so terrified of that that we will avoid it at all costs. And it can be really exciting, actually, if we let ourselves get there.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:21:19]:

It really can be. And that's actually something, too. In my community that I've been working with, it's like, can we just play with new ways of being in the world? Like, maybe you dress a little differently today. Maybe you have a conversation that you normally wouldn't have. Like, can we try to start to kind of test the boundaries of who we believe ourselves to be and just see, get curious? What happens if I show up a little differently? What happens if I approach my partner a little bit differently? Or, you know, just take a different. Because I do feel that there's, you know, we can have some tunnel vision, and when we can start to expand our paradigm of how we show up in the world, everything starts to change. That things are not set or not that well defined.

Vanessa Bennett [00:21:57]:

Agreed. Yeah. That's a really good way to put it.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:21:59]:

Yeah. So one of the other things, too, that I wanted to talk about, and as we were leading up, I was like, how do I phrase this in a way that I don't want it to sound like any. Anybody's doing anything wrong, but I want to talk a little bit about romantic relationships, because I have a lot of women in my community, and a lot of them aren't in them, and they're. Most of them are like midlife and beyond. And again, I think this is kind of like a culture, individual chicken and egg type conversation. But sometimes I feel that culture has kind of Said you don't need to be in a relationship, you being single is so much better. And I actually think we heal very well in relationships and I do think that most they can be very life affirming. So I wonder if sometimes our culture has almost put a lens or negativity bias where people don't think that they need them and yet maybe they would benefit from them.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:22:53]:

What are your thoughts on that?

Vanessa Bennett [00:22:55]:

I mean, it's a pretty big conversation. I would say that for the first time in history we're starting to decentralize romantic relationships. And I think that is actually a beautiful thing because yes, while we need relationships, we don't actually need romantic relationships. The work that you can do in relationship can actually be done with your friends and can actually be done with your loved ones and can actually be done at work. Is it the same? No. Of course you're always going to get, you know, it's going to be harder exponentially when it's an intimate relationship in that way because kind of activates our deepest wounding. But do you need it to survive? Absolutely not. You do not.

Vanessa Bennett [00:23:30]:

I also think for the first time in society I think it's okay that women are actually being a little hyper independent, to be honest. I think we've been in, I think we've been dependent and I think we've been socialized to be dependent for far too long. And I actually think it's okay for women to spend some time in this hyper independent space and really emerge knowing that they do not need a relationship. They will enter into a relationship when it's justified, which is a big difference. Right. Like you are somebody who will actually add to my life and my existence and so I will accept you into my life because of that. That I'm not going to enter into this relationship because I feel like I'm less than unless I'm partnered.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:24:12]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:24:13]:

And I think that that has actually been the driving force for relationships for a very long time for women. So I also believe like you know, one of my best girlfriends, we've had a long conversation a few times about how her and I are doing our personal work in such different ways. Like I believe that my kind of soul contract has me here doing a lot of this work specifically in romantic relationship. Whereas hers has actually been a lot of her work has been on the other of relationship and has been being alone for quite some time and really doing that hard work. I don't think that either one of us is right or wrong. I think it's almost like what, what Is our purpose here?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:24:51]:

Right?

Vanessa Bennett [00:24:51]:

Like what, what do we come here to learn? And so I, I don't want a blanket statement because I think some people actually probably are here to learn how to be alone but be in community, you know, but maybe some people are also here to be in intimate partnership. For me, the importance for all of us is really get to get down to the nitty gritty around why am I in this relationship? Because if it's because of the choose me wound and it's because society tells me that I am less than if I'm not partnered and if it's because that I feel like I, you know, I need to be needed and I need, my value is in this role of the fixer and the helper and the saver and the over functioner, then no, I actually think you should not be in relationship, if I'm being honest.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:25:35]:

Yeah, no, that's great. And thank you. And I def. I, I agree. I think we're all here to learn different things and sometimes that could be in relationship, but for many it might be like I'm here to learn how to be by myself.

Vanessa Bennett [00:25:45]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:25:46]:

From a depth perspective. Because in my community work with a lot of stories and myths and I even have been applying a lot to even just kind of like modern romantasy.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:25:55]:

I can't help but feel though that there is a psychic desire to connect, to have a sense of this like romantic connection. Like you read any almost piece of literature, even modern literature with feminists, they are all partnered by the end of the novel. Almost like at least the ones that I'm thinking of. And isn't that something to steal? I mean, there's Shiva and Shakti, Adam and Eve, like, you know, there's just every ancient shows kind of this merging of the masculine and feminine coming together. So isn't there though this still this like strong drive to want to connect, to want to couple? And are we doing a disservice if we're saying that that doesn't exist?

Vanessa Bennett [00:26:38]:

Yeah, I mean, I don't think that anybody's saying it doesn't exist. Right. I think we're just saying like we need to get to the bottom of what the motivation for wanting to partner and couple actually is. Because I don't think that that's actually been the reason why we've been partnering and coupling for the last few centuries, if we're being really honest. I also believe that mythically or more like metaphorically speaking, a lot of like if you were to say Adam and Eve or Shiva And Shakti, a lot of that is actually the union of the masculine and feminine within. It doesn't necessarily mean that I have to meet an other that is the opposite of me.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:27:13]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:27:13]:

This will go back to the anima and the animus within from Jung's work. So even in a lot of those stories, so often they actually do represent the same person. Even Cinderella, some would say that the prince and Cinderella coming together actually represents the masculine and feminine within, not actually that he is a true embodied man, that it was important for her to find that part of herself.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:27:38]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:27:39]:

So even in that work, I think that it's important again to say, am I working towards kind of engaging those energies within? Am I working towards, like, embracing and working with these different energies within? And then when I feel that I am in a place of more integration, when I feel like I'm in a healthier space of like a healthier relationship to my inner masculine, for example, or even my. My more healthy feminine. Because I think a lot of us in Western culture, and especially codependency, even what we believe is feminine, I would say is a very unhealthy feminine. So if I'm able to start to work with these energies and integrate those energies within, then I am in a much healthier place to go outward and then partner with somebody else. Right. But if I'm not, and if I'm not looking to partner from that kind of healthier, more established, more grounded place, then what I'm going to be doing is I'm going to be looking to somebody else to fill that hole. I'm going to be looking to somebody else to reparent me and kind of heal those wounds that in actuality are my responsibility to heal. So often we just want somebody else to do that for us.

Vanessa Bennett [00:28:48]:

Right?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:28:49]:

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And yeah, completely agree. And that's the way that we look at the myths and fairy tales is that they're all aspects of our psyche as well too.

Vanessa Bennett [00:28:57]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:28:57]:

No, I think it's just an interesting conversation because I think it is very hard for women to sometimes understand. Yes. Like, what is the driving factor of wanting Totally relationship. And I love that as kind of the inquiry, like, why? Why do I even need one? And what am I looking for? And yeah, do I have to develop my own masculine. Like, what am I?

Vanessa Bennett [00:29:17]:

And that's why I think, to your point, it's a really interesting conversation because I also. It's like we have to make space for the. Yes and right. Like, and it's okay to desire partnership. No One is saying that it's not.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:29:27]:

It's.

Vanessa Bennett [00:29:27]:

We're just saying, like, let's unpack the motivation for partnership. Right. Yeah. So that when we do enter into one, we're not entering into one, hoping this person's going to save us or is going to complete us or is going to, you know, fix something within us again. It's like I'm entering into this partnership because it's. It's justified and we are coming together as two whole individuals versus wanting to fix each other. Right. And then we get ourselves into one of these cycles again that most of us have already experienced in our lifetime.

Vanessa Bennett [00:29:55]:

Been there, done that. Right.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:29:57]:

I know. We always talk about that too. Like, why do I keep dating the same type of person? Or why do I keep doing this? Yeah. I think Jerry Maguire, you know, kind.

Vanessa Bennett [00:30:05]:

Of screwed, like, just generations.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:30:09]:

Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:30:11]:

You have something on your website that I really, really loved, and I wanted to dive in a little bit. It just says, you say the self is remembered, not built. And that's the self with the capital S. Can you just share, like, how you define self and kind of like how you use that in. In your work? Because, you know, as we talk about, like, different modalities and styles and diagnoses, I think it all comes back to a strong sense of self. And so can you just share a little bit, like, what. What you meant by that line? And.

Vanessa Bennett [00:30:39]:

Yeah, I mean, I think this, you know, so much of obviously being somebody with a depth psychology background, so much of my work is obviously informed by. By Jung and by similar teachers. And really this idea that it is a lifelong journey, right. This journey of individuation, this. This journey that we are on to reconnect with self. Because when we are born into, you know, this plane, ego and Persona become very important to survive, you know, and so much of what we're leading with is actually ego. And ego is not a bad thing. Ego is very important for our survival and it's very important for our acceptance into larger culture.

Vanessa Bennett [00:31:18]:

So, again, making space for everything, Right. This.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:20]:

Yes.

Vanessa Bennett [00:31:21]:

And kind of mentality. But what happens is we get too identified with the ego, and then that sense of self kind of gets pushed into the shadow. Right?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:28]:

Those.

Vanessa Bennett [00:31:28]:

Those components of us get pushed in to the shadow. And so I do believe that it's this kind of exciting, lifelong journey to remember and reconnect with and maybe amplify that sense of self and create like a healthier relationship between self and ego so that we're not pulling solely from ego, which again, is kind of what our society is built on.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:50]:

Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:31:50]:

And what it rewards.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:31:52]:

Yeah, it really, really is. Would you have practices that you would suggest for people to help them kind of remember that sense of self?

Vanessa Bennett [00:32:03]:

Yeah. You know, I often say that even though, like, what you and I are talking about right now can sound kind of big or ethereal in the way we're talking about it, I actually do talk a lot about how kind of that sense of self is actually, you know, built or remembered in the tangible. I like to call them micro moments. Right. And so as we start to go into this work and we start to say, oh, you know, I need to start working on boundaries, or I don't really know where I end and people begin, like, I need to start creating a kind of stronger structure around my emotions or fixing people or saving people. I say, okay, let's just take boundaries as the example. So let's say you decide. This is the thing that I need to really work on right now.

Vanessa Bennett [00:32:44]:

I really need to work on having stronger boundaries.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:32:46]:

Okay, great.

Vanessa Bennett [00:32:47]:

So every time you say no when everything in you is screaming yes because you're so worried about what they'll think, and are they going to think that you're selfish and are they going to stick around and be your friend if you say no? Right. But you go, no, I'm gonna say no, I don't have the bandwidth for this right now. It's okay. Right. And you do the thing. So whatever the thing is, it's boundaries. In this example, I like to call that, like, that is a brick that we're then gonna lay onto the foundation of that sense of self. And so it's.

Vanessa Bennett [00:33:17]:

It's not a small thing, even though it's a. It feels like a micro moment, which is why I use that term. It's important because what you're doing is you're telling the self. You matter. I hear you. You're important. I'm gonna protect you. Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:33:29]:

I'm not gonna abandon you for, you know, the fear that somebody will leave me. I am going to choose you. And every time we do that, we actually strengthen that connection to that sense of self. Which is why I say, like, yes, it can sound like we're kind of out here talking about it in the ether, but it really is a tangible practice.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:33:46]:

Yeah, I agree. I think it's like. I think sometimes even, like, the smaller. The practices like you said, you know, can have even more of an impact, like, even totally in my community. It's sometimes it's like, well, I feel disconnected to my Intuition. It's like, well, when you need to pee, get up and pee. If you want water, have some water. Like, just start listening to what your body is saying.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:34:07]:

And I think another thing, though, like, in your example, particularly, like, when you do say no, celebrate that as a success. Like, actually acknowledge when you are showing up for yourself and kind of let that sink in as well.

Vanessa Bennett [00:34:20]:

Agreed. Yeah, I totally agree. It's like you have to make space to acknowledge when you've done something that feels really difficult. Right. Like, don't just skip over it. Like I said, even though it feels small, like, let's actually honor and acknowledge that because it's a big deal. You know, a foundation, a house is built brick by brick. So you have to be really aware, like, oh, I did that thing and I laid that brick, you know?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:34:45]:

Yeah. Now I know. When I reached out to you, I think maybe it was like last year, and you were like, oh, I have a book coming out, and I think your book is out now. Right. The Mother. Can you tell us a little bit about that? Yeah.

Vanessa Bennett [00:34:57]:

So, God, this book was quite the labor of love, to use that word. Really. Just, I guess I. Once I entered into motherhood, I really started questioning what I kind of call the myths that we are handed by society around mothering, around, partnering around relating to other people. And I really wanted to understand why and how we got here. Like, this feels like it should be. Be not this hard. Like, why is that? Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:35:25]:

And so the biggest myth, the motherhood myth that I reference a lot in the book is this idea that mothering relationships should be easy and they should really fill you up. Like, you should be totally fulfilled by these roles. And if you're not, there's something wrong with you.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:35:40]:

Yeah. Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:35:41]:

And so that was the first thing where I was like, okay, because I don't know a single person who thinks this is easy, and I don't know a single person who is completely, completely filled to the brim by motherhood or by partnership. Right. And so we all know this, but somehow this myth is still around. And so I kind of went on this journey to. I don't know, I'm a bit of a history nerd. So there's definitely, like, a sociological perspective. There's definitely, like, an anthropological perspective to this book where I wanted to understand where did this come from. Right.

Vanessa Bennett [00:36:12]:

And. And really what I help people understand is themselves personally within these relationships. So to their children, to their partners, to their friends and their loved ones. But also you have to understand the context of, like, the larger social systems. Because again, this like, fish and water metaphor that we've used. If I don't understand that, I'm going.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:36:31]:

To think it's me. Right?

Vanessa Bennett [00:36:33]:

And dominator systems, which is the term that was coined by Rhiann Eisler, right. Dominator systems, again, only continue to run on the backs of us that are living in shame, that believe that, that we're the problem, that there's something inherently wrong with us. Right? So when you wake up and you look around and you go, oh, this actually isn't about me, right? Capitalism, white supremacy, misogyny, patriarchy, all of these systems are built on me believing that, and they run on me believing that. And so if I look around and go, oh, it's actually not about me, there's a bit of like, almost like an inherent activism that comes with that because you start to go, oh, I can fight against these systems by changing my, my perspective, by changing the way I show up in my relationships. And it becomes like, not just about me, but it becomes larger than me, you know?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:37:22]:

Oh, that, that's amazing. I love that perspective that you just gave. Again, like the fish and water is that we can. And especially as a mother, I have a 17 year old and a 19 year old, so kind of you're on the other side. On the other side a bit. But yeah, it's just you do. You're expected to be like, this is the most joyful. And don't get me wrong, there's plenty of joyful moments.

Vanessa Bennett [00:37:42]:

Yes.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:37:42]:

And, and yes. And it's like, oh my goodness, I really want to hide in the closet and just have a cup of tea too.

Vanessa Bennett [00:37:48]:

That's right. That's right. And also, like, this is not how it's meant to be. Like, where is the community? Where is the support system? Where is the right. And so when you start to understand that, like, it's, it's meant to be hard on purpose to keep you stuck, to keep you struggling, to keep you isolated, to keep you, right, dependent on systems. And then, then you start to go, oh, okay, got it. But it doesn't stop there in the book, right? Then I give a lot of really personal, tangible things that you can start to do within your own life to start to break this down. Because I, I think that what I noticed when I was researching this book is that some of the books felt very big and they were very like, you know, fuck the patriarchy.

Vanessa Bennett [00:38:33]:

And I was like, yeah, you know, everybody gets all rallied together. But then it was like, okay, but now what, what Do I do with this angle?

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:38:39]:

Like, exactly.

Vanessa Bennett [00:38:41]:

Person not gonna do that on my own, you know? And then on the other side of the spectrum, there were a lot of amazing books, like motherhood books that were written by therapists and psychologists who I felt really put all of the weight on the woman reading the book to make the changes to do the work. And I was like, okay, I feel like we need some middle ground here.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:38:57]:

Right?

Vanessa Bennett [00:38:58]:

And so I really hope that that was where I kind of landed with this. With this book.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:39:02]:

Yeah, the book sounds like it would actually be, like, applicable for, like, women in any phase of motherhood, because it really is about, like, the patriot, you know, because, well, one, it never really ends. I mean, like I said, my kids are my adult. I still, like, did you wear your jacket today? Like, exactly.

Vanessa Bennett [00:39:20]:

So it never stops.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:39:22]:

Yeah, well.

Vanessa Bennett [00:39:23]:

And also, I've had a lot of men reach out to me too. I've had a lot of men reach out to me and be like, this book was so helpful. You know, I'm so glad that I read this. I had a man the other day DM me and say, you know, he's in his early 20s, and he just really wanted to read it because he does someday want to be a father. And he just really wants to understand this perspective and how it was so eye opening for him. And, you know, he's like, and I have a mother. So it was really important for me to understand this. And I was like, God bless you.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:39:49]:

Like, my goodness.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:39:52]:

Yes, I know.

Vanessa Bennett [00:39:53]:

Whoa. That's fantastic. Yeah.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:39:55]:

Well, I'm gonna get it, and I'm looking forward to reading it very much as well, so. But thank you so much for jumping in and diving into these kind of complicated subjects that I threw out, like individual culture.

Vanessa Bennett [00:40:08]:

I was like, ooh, yeah, bring it. Let's do it.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:40:10]:

But how can people find you, get in touch with you, work with you?

Vanessa Bennett [00:40:14]:

Yeah, Everything's on my website. Vanessa Bennett.com. all the different plates that I spin. Like I said, I have a community. I actually have a depth psychology coaching program where I train coaches around depth psychology. The book is there. And then I'm mostly on Instagram, Vanessa Sbennett on social media. But I have a love hate relationship with social these days, which I think a lot of us do.

Vanessa Bennett [00:40:34]:

So I say just go to my website.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:40:36]:

Yeah, me too. Very much.

Vanessa Bennett [00:40:38]:

And I will put all of those.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:40:40]:

Links in the show notes as well for. For everyone, so it'll be easy to find. But thank you so much for joining me today.

Vanessa Bennett [00:40:47]:

Thank you, Lisa. I really appreciate this a great conversation.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:40:51]:

Thank you for joining me for this episode of the Goddess School Podcast. I hope it sparked your imagination and and expanded your vision for what's possible. If you're ready to explore these concepts more deeply, reclaim your personal myth, and live with greater creativity and enchantment, I invite you to join me inside enlivened my Divine Feminine Mystery School and Sacred Community where we bring these teachings to.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:41:16]:

Life through ritual, story coaching, and of course, real world action. You can find the link to learn more in the show notes.

Lisa Marie Rankin [00:41:25]:

And remember, the Goddess isn't a deity outside of yourself. She's an aspect of your highest self. You are the Goddess until.