People don't come with instruction manuals, yet most

people manage to navigate social situations relatively easily.

At least it seems that way.

And if your neurodivergent, especially, if you are on the autistic spectrum,

it can feel like everyone else got a copy of the manual and you never did.

Neurodiversity is something we're only still getting to grips with, and it

doesn't begin and end with autism.

More and more people are wandering about seeking a diagnosis.

For example, I was diagnosed with ADHD a couple of years ago and it's helped me

get a much better understanding of what makes me tick, and where my strengths lie.

In today's episode, I'm speaking with neurodivergence coach Matthew Bellringer.

If you identify as neurodivergent and you want to learn how to capitalize on your

strengths and deal better with the costs, or if you're wondering whether getting

a diagnosis would help or hinder you, or you just want to support and benefit from

people whose brains work differently, then get comfy and let's dive in.

I'm Matthew Barringer.

My work is all about exploring and sharing how everyone can

benefit from neurodiversity.

I'm particularly interested in the benefits that neurodiversity

can bring for individuals and for society and for organizations.

My focus is therefore a little bit different on the

normal deficit based stuff.

So it's all about actually what do we get with the way that different brains work?

I have a, a kind of typical neurodivergent, mixed background of, um,

tech research, innovation, psychology and communications, which has led me

to, to, to doing this particular work.

and I'm also an autistic ADHDer.

So much there to unpick, Matthew.

Loads of stuff in your background.

Some sort of labels, well label some diagnoses yourself.

And I really wanted to get you on the podcast today to talk to people in high

stress, high stakes jobs, a lot of whom I think maybe neurodivergent themselves.

Uh, I know that in medicine we have a, a high incidence of what I think

you call twice exceptional people.

So we'll talk about that in a minute.

And what would be really nice to know is a little bit about what people who are twice

exceptional particularly struggle with and how they might approach not being stressed

and not being burnt out in a bit of a different way to other people perhaps.

But I'd love to start off just by asking you, Matthew, you do lots of

work with people who are neurodivergent, you're neurodivergent yourself.

And just before the podcast I said to you, well, do we say

neurodivergent or neurodiverse?

so neurodiversity is, was was coined by, uh, sociologist, Judy

Singer, um, in the late nineties, to describe the normal variation

amongst the entire human population in the way that our neurology works.

So it, it's, it's that neurology varies quite a lot between different people,

between different and changes over, uh, as we age and all of these different

things, and that's part of the, the normal diversity of human experience.

It's a way of questioning the approach that says anything that

differs from a very kind of strictly established standard is necessarily

disordered or dysfunctional.

That's not to say that it completely excludes that.

And I, I think one of the, you know, neurodiversity can, can sometimes

be interpreted to mean well then no one has any problems, and that's

absolutely not what we're talking about.

But the, we should be kind of working with that normal variation of how we all

think and feel and experience the world.

And most people think and feel ex and experience the world mostly

the same or mostly similarly.

It's not that everyone experiences it exactly the same, but these things kind

of fall onto a normal distribution.

They fall onto a fall onto a bell curve.

And if you sit significantly outside of that bell curve, if you sit

towards, towards the edges, um, of various different traits, various

different kind of experiences, that can introduce some specific problems.

And we, uh, we've kind of started to use the term neurodivergent to describe

people who sit outside, significantly outside of that normal experiencing.

And I say normal in the sense of statistically most common,

experiencing of the world.

So my kind of, my personal functional definition of, of

neurodivergent is someone who, who significantly Im pervasively

experiences the world differently to most other people around them.

You don't necessarily need diagnosis, though there are a lot of categories,

diagnostic categories that are associated with being neurodivergent.

Um, these are sometimes called neuro minorities, specific neuro minorities.

So for example, autism or ADHD, or dyslexia.

Uh, the, the, these particular kind of ways of associated with a

certain neurology lead to a kind of cluster of common experience,

um, or more common experience.

That's really helpful.

So basically everybody is neurodiverse, but some people are further away from

the, the commonality than others.

And that would be neuro, neurodivergent.

And then you've got these clusters of people that have fairly similar

neurodivergences, which are these sort of minorities that you, neuro

minorities that you talked about.

Mm-hmm.

That's helpful.

And when we've chatted before, I know you've said to me that you think there

are quite high quantity of people who are in these neuro minorities in some

of these really high stress occupations, such as medicine, for instance.

Is, is there a reason for that, do you think?

Absolutely.

I'd like to touch on, um, this idea of twice exceptional that you mentioned

as well, that's, uh, that, that's I think, is a really helpful one.

There is a cultural assumption that being neurodivergent comes

with intellectual disability.

That isn't true.

It just isn't true.

Sometimes some of the conditions come with intellectual

disability, sometimes they don't.

Being twice exceptional is to be neurodivergent and or inte, uh,

creatively and or intellectually gifted.

So it's to actually be kind of a higher level of certain ability than

we'd normally see in the population.

Until recently, that whole category hasn't even attracted diagnosis, partly

because the diagnostic criteria are entirely deficit based, and are relatively

unsophisticated, um, as a, as a, as a really, uh, differential diagnostic

tool compared to a lot of other things.

A a and so we, we kind of overlooked a load of experiences and one of the

big experiences is, yeah, people who are, who, who are highly intellectually

able, extraordinarily sometimes and yet also have specific difficulties.

And very often those abilities make people a really good fit for certain professions.

And there are a range of different kind of things that come with neurodiversity

that lead people to being really able to cope in certain environments, being

really skilled in certain environments, wanting to work in certain environments

that perhaps most other people wouldn't.

I think the best example of this, you know, and, and it's not the

medicine as an entire body skews in one specific neurodivergent way, but

that within the practice of medicine there are niches that suit the ways

of thinking and being and working that different neuro minorities possess.

I think the obvious example of this is emergency medicine and the chaos of an

A and E department on a Friday night.

And that that takes a certain sort of skillset to just to be able to cope, to

navigate and to actually kind of enjoy.

I, having spoken to people who work, working, like there's a kind of

sometimes feels like a slightly perverse enjoyment, but an enjoyment of that kind

of, you know, the intensity of that.

And that's associated with ADHD traits in particular.

The, the ability to kind of cope with all of those things happening at once and

to en enjoy and to actually seek it out.

But the flip side of that if you think about someone kind of skewing

in that direction of a specialized neurology for being able to navigate

that kind of chaos, it comes with a relatively, potentially with a reduced

ability to do kind of procedural things, particularly low unstimulating

procedural things like filling in forms.

And it's not to say that everyone who is in these practices certainly has a

clinically diagnosable condition, but might well share traits with people that

do, and people who do have the condition might well do well in those specialisms.

And it's not just medicine, is it?

There's all sorts of, you know, specialties where you have to use your

brain a lot for various things, or you have to respond quickly to emergencies,

or we have to really get into the detail of stuff and think it through.

And there's some things that you need to be able to interact with people

a lot more than, than other people.

is there something about, you know, people that are in these positions of

extreme responsibility for other people that predispose them to some types of

neurodivergence in the first place?

Well, I, I, I think there's, um, there isn't a generalized

blanket, but there are some trends.

One of the interesting things about a relatively understudied

group of neurodivergent people is neurodivergent people who are

particularly interested in other people.

Now, that has been overlooked, partly because part of the diagnostic

criteria for a lot of neurodivergent conditions is a lack of empathy.

That criterion itself is problematic.

It's actually that.

It's a lack of empathy for neurotypical people, for people

who experience the world kind of in, like most other people do.

And those, um, those, those absences of empathy disappear when with other

people of their neurotype or their neuro minority, or almost entirely.

So this whole situation of being interested in people can

often mask the stereotypical presentation of neurodiversity.

And I think a lot of people who, who end up professionally interested in working

with and for people, part of that drive comes from wanting to understand people

on a more profound level in some way.

A lot of neurodivergent people talk about missing a memo or not

getting an instruction manual that other people seem to have got.

And I think very often that desire to study and to understand, if we

are intellectually capable, it's one way of being like, oh, I can,

I can, I can, I can figure it out, then I can look it up in a textbook.

I can understand it, and then address that fundamental experiencing of

the world that I'm, I'm not sure I understand how people work.

Well, that, that's interesting.

Are there any specific, you know, superpowers that you would attribute to

some people with particular conditions, for example, you know, I know that often

people with ADHD really struggle with executive function, getting themselves

organized, et cetera, et cetera, but their superpower is connecting ideas

and responding really quickly and just being able to take that thing from

over there and, oh, that would work there and that is a real superpower.

But then in other ways, the ADHD can be a real hindrance in, you

know, actually getting stuff done.

So, I mean, that's a really obvious one.

What, what other superpowers have you observed in people that

aren't perhaps quite so obvious?

I tend to tend to avoid the word superpowers.

Um, partly because it's not anything supernatural.

I think if we are using a metaphor, it's closer to the, the kind of X-men

mutant powers that they have this huge advantage, but they come with a cost,

A nuant power with a cost.

Love it.

Okay.

Because, because they, they, they, you know, everything has

a, it's a plus and a minus.

Um, we don't really get, like abilities for free.

We are trading, you know, it's, it's a, a neurological trade of one thing

for another thing very often, um, or one strength for a relative weakness.

But having said that, I mean the, the, the kind of classic ones, yeah, the

ones around creativity, for ADHD, uh, and, and, and, and it just a generalized

ability to cope with and often enjoy relatively chaotic environments that

can be overwhelming for other people.

I'm not entirely sure whether that's just down to practice and the fact

that we managed to generate quite a lot of chaotic environments.

But one of the other strengths actually I've noticed is also quite

a lot of project managers show ADHD traits, which seems counterintuitive.

And I think this is the, the, the, like, one of the other ways that neurodivergent

strengths can manifest is when we develop really good tools externally

in ways of supporting everything.

So if you need to develop things, people tell me I'm really, really organized.

I don't experience myself as organized.

I use a ton of tools around me, and I'm pretty good at using them cuz

I've used them for my entire life.

And if I don't, I don't do anything.

So, but that then means I've got this, this kind of organizational

skillset set in the outside world.

So we can develop these skills, that are kind of mitigations really,

and get very, very good at them.

Thinking about autistic traits as well, which is the other, the other

really big one, that's associated with visualization ability, very often.

Often sensory sensitivity in different ways.

So a real attunement to the senses, as well as a kind of uh, real

joy in ordering things and having things in a certain arrangement.

And what's interesting is for me in the, the two combined lead

to a very intense curiosity and a desire to learn all the time.

And that itself can be a benefit, particularly for a generalist, um,

in a domain because it's that ability to go outside of the boundaries.

With neurodiversity, we often face quite significant challenges, social

challenges, um, life challenges.

And if we're fortunate and we have the developmental, um, context and

the internal capacity to develop a skill that mitigates them, that

deals with it, we can end up with huge strengths in certain areas.

Well, I mentioned that difficulty and empathy between generally neurotypical

people and the neuro minorities.

If you have strong reason to overcome that, you can overcome that.

It's just a harder form of empathy.

For me, my quick test for anyone, if they're wondering if they're

hyper empathetic, hyper empathetic is, um, empathetic overspill,

which is when you have empathy for inanimate and non sentient objects.

So say for example, you see a mug that you haven't used for a while and you think you

feel sorry for that mug because it must be feeling like it doesn't have a, you know,

it, it's not living its purpose anymore.

Um, that, that's an example of empathetic overbuilt.

So it's just as a quick idea, but it, it can manifest all sorts of different ways.

And so you can see where these hyper adaptions develop.

And the hyper adaptions can be huge strengths and huge superpowers, though

only in as much as they're not completely obligate trauma related responses.

Cuz sometimes they develop as a result of trauma.

And if they are then we, we, we struggle to moderate them, and we use them all

the time and then we overuse them.

Because this is one of the huge things.

Any, any strength can be overused.

And very often the, the most normal failure mode for anyone, neurotypical

or neurodivergent is that not that we operate in a domain of weakness,

but we operate in a domain of strength long past its usefulness.

That is ringing really true because I know that I have the ability to connect

ideas and share ideas and see connections, and see possibilities and all that,

partly because of my own neurodiversity.

And I know that when I'm talking to someone about ideas, I often talk to

friends about new businesses that they want to set up and things like that.

It's really good for a bit, and then I think I just overwhelm people with ideas.

And, you know, so it starts off really good, but then it keeps going and

it keeps going and it keeps going and, and eventually that person's

like, oh my goodness, I'm exhausted.

I can't listen anymore.

Does that make sense?

Absolutely.

And I, I think this, this, this link links me really nicely to one of the

other things that I'd like to, to mention actually, which, um, which is

this concept of camouflaging or masking.

So when we are neurodivergent, most neurodivergent people, particularly 2E

people, twice exceptional people, tend to pick up the habits of getting by in,

uh, normal society, in behaving in ways that don't mark them out as different.

And I think when people hear masking, it sounds like striving to make up a deficit.

But particularly for this group, the largest part of the masking is

in inhibition, is in holding back.

So it becomes that not telling everyone about, look, you know, when, when you

start chatting to someone and you've, you are ma incredibly interested in

something, you don't just give them all of the facts and the whole story.

Like you don't, or you don't just tangent and tangent and tangent

and follow the, the thread off because most people don't like that.

And it, so we learn to actually hold back.

And this also relates to the strength cuz it well deployed

these things a huge strength.

But when we've learned to mask them that way, we kind of associate

them with being problematic per se, rather than contextually just

something that's not always welcome.

And so we tend then, then we suppress them entirely and then

we don't have access to them.

So I think that idea of, unpicking and kind of developing the strengths is,

is about like working out where am I inhibiting and how could I use this thing?

Because it's about expressing yourself and expressing what you, what you kind of

are experiencing, but doing so skillfully.

You know, in, in the medical context, you might suddenly have a huge amount of

medical information at hand, but that's not something you necessarily want to, you

know, give a lecture to a patient on for the quarter of an hour if, if it comes up.

But it might be really useful in another context.

And so that like being able to moderate that, and knowing when it's a thing and

knowing how to work with it and how to express it well, is, is a real part of

the, the kind of developing this skill.

I'm really interested in this thing about masking and camouflaging and I

know Matthew, you work with a lot of high functioning professional people who

are having issues in their workplace, probably because of their new versions

and because of the job as well.

I know you, you coach them a lot.

I know that people come to you with lots of different things, but can you see

any themes in the types of issues that people are coming to you for help with?

Yeah, I, I think if I boil it down in, in, in these contexts, like the, the, the

core thing that most people I work with experience in some way or another is a

combination of frustration and anxiety.

That can manifest in all sorts of different ways, but very often it's

rooted in that, that common experience.

And that comes from seeing the world differently, seeing different things

in the world, seeing different opportunities and different threats.

And the difficulty with that is when you're working with others, that

means everyone ignoring opportunities that you, that are obvious to you,

and the frustration that comes with that, and equally blundering into

threats that are obvious to you and the anxiety that comes with that.

And so, yeah, that can, that can manifest in all sorts of different ways.

Some people experience a kind of gap between their, their level of performance,

what their, what they think, their level of performance, however, um, how much,

however much approval people get in the outside world, that can often feel hollow,

um, doesn't necessarily feel secure.

Um, and that's, that's partly, um, a masking thing as well, is we

learn to kind of separate and show a very partial image of ourselves.

Then praise doesn't necessarily feel like it belongs to us when we get it because

we know we are presenting a partial image.

And, and so, uh, it can feel like a gap between in your potential,

knowing that you are, there's something else that you are, or a

sense that you are missing something.

it can lead to, quite often people have a kind of creative unconventional

side that doesn't get expressed or feels like they can't get that out in

the world, and they can be incredibly, technically able, professionally able,

but that they're, that feels stifling.

It doesn't feel like self-expression in any sense of the word, and that

they can't express themselves in as a, as their professional identity.

And finally, it can also manifest as being torn between doing stuff that's

intrinsically rewarding, that feels good, that gives you energy that you enjoy, and

doing stuff that's materially rewarding, that gets you paid and gets you praise,

um, an external kind of, um, approval.

And that barrier, you know, the difficulty with those two things being

entirely separate is whenever you're doing one, you're not doing the other

because they're both needed, that always feels like plate spinning.

And so this, this idea of constantly chasing reward, whether it's intrinsic

or extrinsic, is one of the other common experiences in this space.

And it's partly it's because we've learned that this our inner world

are experiencing isn't really okay to share with others and isn't a value.

And in the long run, the work is integrating the two.

And is that more difficult for people with neurodivergence than it is

for, um, air quotes, normal people?

I think, uh, mo a lot of people experience some, not complete overlap,

I should say, between the, um, between intrinsic and extrinsic reward.

However, the system is set up to broadly direct people towards professions where

they will experience a reasonable degree of both if they're, if you're lucky

enough to get a decent education and get all of the support that that, that comes

with, you know, if you, if you are, if you are fortunate enough to get to go

to university, that's kind of what that process is supposed to be delivering.

Accepting that there are plenty of people who are marginalized and that

path doesn't work, but that, that is kind of what that's, that's so, it,

it gives you at least a, most people a decent degree of overlap in that space.

For a lot of neurodivergent people, it doesn't.

You don't get, so it, it's ver barely any overlap or no overlap at all.

And that starts very early.

You know that, that, that, that's often a, a, an early, sometimes preschool, but

definitely schooling upward experience.

And if we are, again, it's an extra risk.

With the twice exceptionality, we learn to put all of our approval, uh,

we, we, we basically learn, okay, self approval, my self judgment is faulty

clearly, cuz it doesn't line up.

So we learn not to trust that all, and we learn just to

trust other people's approval.

And if we are bright, we can get a lot of it.

We never have the situation where we can't get good grades, where we can't

like, we may not like enjoy the process.

We may not intrinsically like want to do that, but extrinsically

we are rewarded for it.

And that over time can separate us quite profoundly from,

from our intrinsic motivation.

So it is a particular risk.

It, it's, it's a, it's a risk when neurodiversity and it's a particular

risk for twice exceptionality.

So essentially you're just doing what everybody else expects you to, what

you're rewarded for, but actually you are really, it's not what you really love.

Your masking stuff and what you really love is over here and no one

really rewards or appreciates that.

And then that's quite a lot of dissonance then to, to live with, right?

It's a huge amount of dissonance to live with.

And I think, you know, we, we, we don't talk about the

mental health consequences yet.

Neurodivergence is quite significantly impactful on a, on a life scale.

Uh, adult diagnosis of ADHD is associated with a 13 year reduced life

expectancy, which makes it more impactful than smoking 20 cigarettes a day.

You know, and if we think about how we talk to people and society, we treat

people who, who smoke 20 cigarettes a day.

According to the latest ONS survey, only 22% of autistic adults are in work at all.

And that comes with its own set of, you know, the, the, the,

the stress and all of these.

So this life expectancy reduction, it's partly in self-harm and risk taking,

high, uh, extreme risk taking behaviors.

It's partly in psychosocial stress and the ways of working with that, which

can manifest as compulsive behavior and addiction, they can manifest as

chronic physiological stress, which obviously, you know, increased risk

of all sorts of different things.

A big, a chunk of it is not getting help for treatable conditions.

and that's because sometimes services are inaccessible or relatively inaccessible

to us in a variety of ways, partly because sometimes the presentation of

those conditions is on the stereotypical, when we are also neurodivergent, we

might experience them differently and therefore report them differently

and therefore not get them diagnosed.

So there's a whole raft of reasons for this impact, none of them

directly related to the neurology.

They're all kind of external, systemic reasons.

So this, this impact is, is something we kind of have to work with and understand.

And I think, you know, both for you and I, it's a very interesting position to be in,

to be neurodivergent and understand this and be on the pointy end of some of this.

And to be working with people around this and be talking to professionals,

medical professionals about these kind of consequences, and trying to

work with others to, to reduce the consequences, the systemic consequences.

And again, thinking back to some of the stereotypes around how we cope,

how we manage, particularly in high stress roles and the maladaptive

coping mechanisms that people often adopt, they can be significant.

Doctors with substance dependency is kind of a cliche at this point.

And there's, there's a raft of other behaviors as well.

And I think we often overlook the supposedly in inverted commas

good behaviors cuz we are very moral about what we think of as

addiction, it's all moralized.

But actually compulsive behaviors of things that we, that are, that

are good to do, you know, that have some benefit, if we overdo

them, that can be just as harmful.

I know an awful lot of highly successful neurodivergent people who

are compulsive work, compulsive workers are often, often addicted to work.

That's often a maladaptive way of coping with this stuff.

Though I should say maladaptive itself is judgmental, I think.

I tend to prefer to think of these things as what they are is coping with things

in the moment, the least bad way possible that's available to us at the moment,

with all the resources that we have.

Those might be psychological resources, those might be knowledge resources, those

might be external environmental resources.

But we choose the, we always choose the least bad option.

What we actually have to do is move the situation so that there are

some good options, not just least bad options, because the, you know,

those least bad options can create a negative feedback loop, and that's

what makes them so problematic.

But I want to be clear when I say, you know, that, that there is no

judgment in following these things.

Very often we inherit these things from, from authority figures, from

parents, from mentors, because they shared traits with us, and they

learnt to cope that way because they, that's what got them through.

And then you just carry that on.

And either it's not helpful anymore or it was never that helpful in the first

place, but we carry them on anyway.

Yeah.

Mean, I love the way that you've said, you know, things aren't good or bad, they're

just helpful or, or not helpful really.

You know, for example, glugging a bottle of wine every night, we've labeled

as bad, but I know lots of people use that to turn their brains off and,

you know, that is, that is sometimes seems like the least bad option.

But other people just binge on chocolate or watch Netflix or go and

do huge, huge amounts of exercise.

But exercise, no, that's, that's a, that's a good thing.

So that's a, or or working hard.

Overwork.

Well that's a good thing cuz you're just committed, aren't you?

But actually all it is, is you trying to cope with stuff and, and

work things out as well as you can.

You know, I, I love what you said about the way that you have

adapted and then these things seem to be a, like a superpower

because you've had to work on them.

And I can see that in my, myself, being quite chaotic at times, and I've

had to learn how to organize myself.

All of the work I do with this podcast is because I've struggled so much, um, only

just been diagnosed with a d h adhd and that makes a lot of sense because I love

these ideas and connecting stuff, and also, you know, I have struggled in jobs

where that have to be very, very detail oriented and sit still for a long time and

this and that and the other thing as well.

But what I wanted to ask you, Matthew, what types of things are really,

really helpful coping mechanisms?

Because there are things that are more unhelpful, even without any judgment.

It it, in no one's world, is it helpful to drink a bottle of wine at night.

It's not helpful for your health, it's not helpful for, for you, so what have

you found works for you and works for your clients that you work with as well?

Yeah, ultimately what we want to do is move towards being in a situation

where we, where we can play to our strengths primarily and where our

weaknesses aren't a huge liability.

And that means creating a context where that's true,

which we can do multiple ways.

And there, there are various tools and various approaches we have available

at our disposal depending on, on, on what our particular needs are.

I, I don't actually take scheduled work until till midday so I do get

up later than most people and I work later than most people that has

advantages cuz I'm based in the UK and it means I work with people in

the US so, because I overlap quite significantly with their working hours.

So that whole kind of space is, is one of the, um, you know,

thinking about like where, where is my difference and advantage?

Because that's the other area of this is, is actually we don't

necessarily benefit from being exactly the same as everyone else.

There are advantages, indifference too, and figuring out a situation that's like,

oh, well, well does, where does this work?

But it's moving towards that point, understanding, you know, moving towards

a practice and a set of things that support us in play to our strengths

I mean, that's great advice for anyone, right?

You don't even have to be neurodivergent.

Play to your strengths is one of the main pieces of advice I give when we talk about

career development and, and resilience.

Because if you can get into a job where you are doing more of what

you love and you are good at, then actually you're gonna be much happier.

And what I loved about what you said was find your exceptionality and

then really, really play to that.

What if your exceptionality is just really left field of what is sort of

expected in the role that you've got?

I think this is really interesting.

This comes up a lot actually.

There are, there are, there are different ways to, to engage with this.

So one of the ways is to accept that, that you have a domain of practice

that's important to you, but is not part of your professional world directly.

That can be incredibly rewarding and incredibly helpful.

The strong example for this is the one thing that predicts Nobel

Prize winners more than anything else is having a significantly

developed practice of playing music.

And those aren't directly related, and they kind of stay separate.

So you can have a practice, so as long as you've got the space in

your life to follow the practice, keeping it separate can work.

And I think the other thing around this is, and this is where this

crosses over with my innovation work, is actually if you combine

things together in an unexpected way, you can meet a different need.

Anything in this space, choose something that feels more

exciting than it does scary.

Even if that means doing a really, really small thing.

And starting with that, like actually this feels good to me, is a really

good way to start exploring that as as slowly as you need, because

it can be incredibly challenging.

And I think all of this is great advice.

Like I said, just now, you know, whether you aren't neuro diversion or not, because

there's never ever gonna be one job that hits all your needs for connection,

for this, for creativity, for that.

And if you can find that outside of your work, that's absolutely brilliant.

So if you're gonna look for the perfect job, you're never,

ever, ever gonna find it.

But perhaps it's, it's, it's harder to find that to get that, like you

said, as much as, um, maybe other people would if you are neurodivergent.

For people that are listening to this, that that would be air quotes normal.

How can they change what they do at work to really help their

colleagues who are neurodivergence.

Thank you.

I think that's a really important question actually.

We tend to assume with any difference that, that the person

who's different then bears all of the cost and of working with this.

And if we look through this lens of, oh, you get, well, you get something

exceptional out of working with this person, then maybe you can

put in, you know, there's, there's value in putting in some effort.

So, yeah, I think it's, it's a really important and underexplored thing.

So the primary things are really building your own awareness and

skills around understanding and finding, understanding with other

people, reaching other people who experience the word differently to you.

And that can be a really, really difficult thing if you are not used to it.

One of the difficult things that we as neurodivergent people

have to understand is we, we are regularly crossing that bridge.

We are regularly encountering this.

But not everyone is.

And so actually a lot of those skills, it's, it's hard to build and it's scary.

And so actually, you know, experiencing different perceptions, different ways

of seeing the world and working with integrating those and understanding

those and connecting with those, and reflecting on your own position

and your own understanding, where is, where is your position actually?

Cause we all have one.

It's just that we tend not to notice it if it's the default.

And so, so you can then know where you are coming from in the

conversation as well is hugely helpful.

Another side of this is being willing to engage with some of

the work in bridging the gaps.

So the classic thing is like, is to say, well, what do you need?

And that's actually a really difficult question in a, in a, in an organizational

context, is because that me needs someone to actually understand all of

the stuff that you understand as well.

So being willing to try stuff out and also being willing to be, to, to be

wrong and to admit that you are operating in a space of limited knowledge.

Because we all have limits to our knowledge and to our awareness.

if you work with someone who is a specific neuro minority, it can be

helpful to understand that condition though with a big grain of salt.

The idea that we are, that the conditions predict very much about us as individuals

isn't, is, is kind of out there in broader society, but it's not very true.

We don't tend to fit the stereotypes terribly well.

They're not that predictive.

So it can be helpful and maybe it's like, you know, when you come up with something

it's like, oh, is this what it is?

Rather than this is what it is.

It's the really important thing.

Thank you.

Lots of helpful stuff there, Matthew, as we just finish off, what would your

three top tips be for anybody who feels that, you know, with a diagnosis or

without a diagnosis, that they might be a little bit different from, from the norm?

And actually, I think that's possibly quite a lot of the listeners here

who've always felt, you know, I'm, I'm not exactly responding exactly

like, like other people here.

What, what would you, what would your main tips be for them for navigating

the world and the worlds of work with perhaps a little bit more ease?

I really like that focus on ease as well, because that's very often what we, what we

don't experience if we're neurodivergent.

Mm-hmm.

We can do the performance, but it doesn't feel easy.

Yeah.

Ever.

I think the first tip is to get curious about yourself and

your experiencing of the world.

You don't have to use the medicalized lens of specific diagnosis,

but it can be very helpful.

Research suggests that the younger you are, you get a diagnosis,

the better your life outcomes.

If you're neurodivergent, it's a direct relationship.

Um, so whilst there are some drawbacks to diagnosis, it seems for most people

it's mostly helpful, more helpful than it is a, a, a, an impediment.

Mm-hmm.

But that has to be a personal decision.

I think just doing the self-development work, doing

the, like self exploratory work.

Where are my strengths?

Where is my joy?

Where is my, you know, where is my interest Reconnecting with that,

that, that's particularly important if we're struggling with mental

health issues as many of us do.

And I think that connection with needs, what are my needs that aren't met?

And that can be a very difficult question to answer if they've never been met.

I think if we have organizational authority, particularly the more

senior we are, the more important this is, is being open about it because

it makes it easier for other people.

There are a lot of people who are either don't know their neurodivergent

or are, um, kind of who have a secret, have their diagnosis a

secret, and that's perfectly valid.

But if you have organization, you know, you have authority, it's worth considering

whether you can use that authority to make your life and other people's lives easier.

Mm-hmm.

And so talking about the experiences of it, sharing those

experiences are really important.

And advocating for your own needs and other people's needs from that experience.

One of the big reasons that it's so important that neurodivergent people

are given better access to work and to the professions is because when we are

fully represented, it actually makes those services much, much better for us.

Unfortunately, the history of psychiatry is not great in terms of

its treatment of neurodivergent people.

And one of the big things that improves that and has has improved

that is making sure that people are represented and that people understand

and can advocate for those experiences.

So being willing to advocate for, you know, the needs of people around us,

um, is, is another major part of this.

And I think there's just one more question I'd like to ask you, because

that first point about getting curious about yourself and if you think that

might be helpful, getting a diagnosis.

I think a lot of people get stuck on that.

Where can you go that's really helpful to get a diagnosis?

And I, you know, I'm asking this, you know, having worked as a GP

and it's not always really obvious where people can, can find this out

for themselves, even as doctors.

First of all, if you are female, if you are twice exceptional, if you

are autistic and hd ADHD, all of those are risk factors for not being

diagnosed, because you don't present.

Stereotypically.

Also, as I mentioned, that having a particular interest in people

is a risk factor for not being diagnosed because you're not

supposed to be interested in people.

You're not supposed to be.

I might be making eye contact cuz I'm interested in what's going on in

someone's head rather than, cuz I'm paying attention to them in the convention,

but I'm, but that reads to another person as, oh, they're not, they're not

artist artistically, kind of like not making eye of a averting eye contact.

So if we're un stereotypical in our presentation, unfortunately we are

going to have to put together a case.

It's not gonna be spotted for us.

And I think working on that experience, like where, where something is feels

off, feels strange, following that.

Having a look at other people's experience and seeing where you

resonate with that strongly.

It's like, are there any people out there who you are like, oh

yeah, that, that, that's me.

And seeing who else resonates with that?

The other thing I'd say is following up any kind of mysteries.

In your experience, do you have pervasive, like low energy?

Do you have migraine stress, migraine when there isn't a, uh, a really

obvious external cause you're not going through a particularly high

number of life stressors at the moment?

You know, do you have any other differences in experience anomalies

in your experience being like, well, okay, what, what could explain those?

And just that, that, that's that curiosity I think.

Also looking at the things that you really enjoy, like really enjoy being like, okay,

where do those point, what strengths do those point to, and what situations are

those potentially associated with as well?

And I think, you know, one of the things is if you are wondering about

this and it's a regular wonder, it's definitely worth following up.

There is a saying in the community that neurotypical people

don't tend to go through life wondering if they're autistic.

So it is definitely worth following up.

And even if you don't, you know, it doesn't meet a specific criteria

or a specific diagnosis, the, the experience of exploring it is worth it.

The knowledge about yourself is worth it.

The knowledge about how your experience and your, your, your kind of way

of being in the road differs from others, which can be incredibly

useful in explaining and kind of triangulating against all of this stuff.

And then having a, having a label kind of can help, but it, it's

really that journey of understanding that's the most valuable thing.

One, one of the challenges around this is actually there are very few support

options for neurodivergent professionals.

We are starting to see the emergence of neurodiversity groups within,

um, various large organizations and professional bodies.

So if you're a member of a professional body, I, I'm chair of Neurodiverse

IT within BCS, the Chartered Institute of It, for example.

So, you know, check out whatever professional accreditations you have and

see whether there's a community group run by and for neuro veg people within that.

Similarly, if you work for an organization, there are an increasing

number of NHS trusts I know who have staff neurodiversity groups.

So head along to that.

See whether it feels like you.

See whether you meet people there who you are like, oh, yeah, okay,

we are experiencing the work there, there is something here

There are a number of different tests online.

Don't take any single tests seriously too seriously.

But if a lot of them point in a similar direction, it's probably worth exploring.

One of the interesting things, a lot of neurodivergent people, when

they tell people close to them that they have the condition is people

go, yeah, you're like, I think, I think I've been like, mask it for.

So I was like, I've got ADHD and autism.

People are like, yeah.

it can be quite a relief, can't it?

I remember when I was diagnosed just a couple of years ago now with ADHD,

it's a bit of a shock, first of all.

I had to go through a bit of a process with it, but actually in terms of helping

me understand what made me tick, going, oh, that's why, that's why, it was act

absolutely brilliant, and so, so helpful.

So I would encourage people, like you said, just start to explore it.

And I do know that there is a Facebook group for neurodivergent doctors,

and so that might be worth joining.

We'll have to dig out the link to that.

And I guess then you can just say to people, well, I think I might

need to go and see a specialist.

Who would you recommend?

Do you know anyone?

And there are all types of coaches and psychologists and doctors out there who,

who do specialize in this sort of thing.

So it's, it's a matter of finding the right professional, but you need to do

a bit of research, don't you, for that.

And absolutely.

And I, I, I work with people around this navigating the, the, the

diagnosis process because there are so many pathways and so many options,

and it's not actually a necessarily a desirable thing for everyone.

So having, having someone who understands the, the world, if, if it's helpful

to you to kind of have someone to talk to, yeah, there are people out

there, myself included, who can, who can talk you through, so you can

weigh up all of the different stuff and work out whether it's wor what's

worth doing and in what priority.

And I think in the knowledge that what a diagnosis or what more

understanding is gonna mean is that you just understand yourself a bit more.

It doesn't change who you are, it doesn't make you a different person.

All it does is just connects you with other people that experience life in

the same way, and give you some tools probably that other people have used

that we know work, that you can then.

Use just to, like I said before, move through life with

a bit more ease, hopefully.

Absolutely.

So Matthew, you've already mentioned this, but I know that you do a lot of

work coaching and supporting people with neurodivergency who or who are

exploring whether they have it or not.

If people want to get hold of you, how, how can they do that?

The main things, uh, yeah, Neurodiverse IT, I also run a community called Curious

Being, which is intended as a space really for this discovery and exploration.

I do, uh, one-to-one work.

Yeah.

With people really around finding, navigating this whole process, getting

the support that, that you need, using the technology and the tools and the

knowledge that we have from psychology to be able to really play to your strengths

and more develop those capacities.

And I work with organizations who want to be better places for neurodivergent people

and who want to really benefit from this.

If an organization is interested in improving its support for neurodivergent

people, then I'm always very happy to work with them either in facilitation,

one-to-one with their staff, or, uh, I do talks and write as well.

So should I do one-to-one work with, um, with people who are

supporting neurodivergent people, whether they, they think of

themselves as neurodivergent or not.

People can go to, um, matthewbehringer.com/links to get all

of that stuff and other publications and articles and bits and bobs.

So, uh, anything that you'd like, you can find me on LinkedIn as well on that link.

Thanks so much Matthew.

We'll put all of those links in the show notes so people can get a hold of you.

Uh, thank you so much for being on the podcast and you know,

this was really in response.

I had a lot of, um, emails in saying, please can we talk about it?

So if people have been listening, have got any specific questions or anything

else that they'd like to explore around this topic, please let us know.

And Matthew, would you come back again to talk to us in the future?

I'd love to come back and ask some, answer, some questions.

The questions are always my favorite bit anyway.

Love to.

Okay.

There we are.

Challenge.

If you guys listening, will email in with your q and a, then we'll

get Matthew back on to answer them.

So thank you Matthew.

Have a good rest of day and we'll speak with you soon.

Thanks very much.