Cat Sebastian

[00:00:00]

Laura: Hi, Cat welcome to watch for next podcast.

Cat: Hi, Laura. Thanks for having me.

Laura: So happy to have you here. Tell us a little bit of what you've been up to.

Cat: Sure my most recent book is called You Should Be So Lucky and it is about a grieving reporter who was assigned to cover a slumping baseball player in 1960 in New York.

Laura: So we are talking last time you were talking about the same time period. We're in the 60s. We're not in the history. It's a historical because it's actually happened a while ago, but it's a pretty recent historical. Like, our parents probably lived those ages like live that time. So, what was the process for you to write like this 1, with baseball and reporters, but like, they do like sports romance and historical.

Laura: Yeah.

Cat: did wind up asking my parents a lot about that era because they were like 13 and 15, and so they, they know and so that, which is actually really fun. That's like one of the [00:01:00] really fun parts of writing about this time period is that So many of the it's like an excuse to ask my mom about that kind of thing.

Cat: It's an excuse. That's and that's always fun. And also, the closer you get to the present day, the easier research gets in general, right? Like, it's just. And this particular period of time is. So, this is 1960 and, like, the Mets came to New York in 1962. Okay. So this is an expansion team that arrived 2 years before that.

Cat: And, like, it's very like Mets coded. Like, it is the book is. About the fake meds. Okay. Now, this was like exhaustively documented at the time because the team was first of all, everybody was like. People had been very upset when the Dodgers and the Giants left New York, and so people were excited to get a non Yankees team, a National League team.

Cat: And then the team was truly awful, and that's always exciting, because something really bad is almost as fun as something really good. And [00:02:00] every single writer with any interest in baseball wrote about the 1962 Mets. Like you have like literature written about it. You have Roger Angel at the New Yorker writing some of the best sports writing ever, like about that experience.

Cat: And Jimmy Breslin wrote a really funny book about it. And so it's, and so that. Being able to research that way by reading really good things, is super fun. And also, like, a lot of the Eddie, the baseball player, I based his character a lot on Mickey Mantle. Like, on like the, when someone is like young and they're supposed to be like, saving the team or saving the sport and have too much media attention and anything they do is going to be perceived as a failure.

Cat: And they're like, unprepared for that level of scrutiny. And so there are many books written about Mickey Mantle. So that was like, to sort of get a sense of what it's like to be in that position. [00:03:00] A lot easier than it would be trying to write about somebody's experience 100 years before that.

Laura: Yeah.

Laura: I can imagine like, it's just like, it's just fine. Like, think about sports sells, like, not just to the female audience, but to the male audience. But at the same time, there's something to be said about like the idea of like the underdog trying to win or the people who are having a bad season and then seeing how they overcome that bad season.

Laura: It's like, it's just makes it much more interesting as a reader.

Cat: I think that's why we, I think that is why, like, we like, I think that we like underdogs because we all have felt like that. And sports is such like, we use numbers to judge whether somebody's doing good or bad in sports, right? Like, it's just, it's your, you have evidence if you're not doing well.

Cat: And I think we find that idea of public failure to be almost reassuring because if these. If [00:04:00] these people are failing publicly, then our minor mortifying events are, they're much less in comparison. I think that's part of it. And I think part of it is that we want to see people do well. And so when you're seeing somebody do badly and they can only go up, like you're kind of guaranteed some kind of catharsis,

Laura: Yes I actually like, I like the underdog. I like the fruity for the one do people don't want to, they don't want to win. I'm like, yeah, so you know, like going for that, like, the Cinderella stories, like those are the ones you're like, yes.

Cat: Yes. And also if you're rooting for the underdog and they lose, you're not surprised.

Laura: Yeah,

Cat: Right?

Laura: yeah.

Cat: disappointed, maybe? Like, maybe, like, or you are, but it's not a, it's not a shock,

Laura: Yeah, and also the idea that it brings us community. It brings us connection to the outer world because we have a community at large who's rooting for the people that you want to or you don't want it. It's just gives [00:05:00] you a sense of like, it's not just me. It's part of a bigger picture as human beings.

Laura: We do need community. We do need like a, like, it's not a purpose, but it's like a purpose,

Cat: yes. It is, and it is a community where, like, even if you never talk to another person who shared, who's, like, rooting for the same thing as you that's still a community because you know they're out there. It's, that's, makes, it does make you feel like you're part of something and it makes it feel relevant.

Laura: Yes, and you have something to share in the group chat.

Cat: Yes. Yes, exactly.

Laura: So,

Cat: that's what sports is like for. I mean, it's that it's something to talk about. Like, it's often just a way to it's I mean, this is in the book to where like, that's some sometimes that's what sports does for you is that it gives you a thing to talk about with your dad or your coworkers or whatever it gives you.

Cat: It gives you that and it has no and it's like a common language almost.

Laura: yeah. Awesome. So you're an audio reader, what kind of [00:06:00] audios do you tend to listen and what type of speed do you listen

Cat: Oh, that's such a good question. Okay, so I listen to everything in audio. Like if I will, if I can get it in audio, that's how I'm reading it. I usually use my eyes for ARCs and for fan book. Okay. Like that's, and if I really can't get a book in any other way, then I'll read it in any book, but it's there's only so much time I have to sit down and read a book and not do anything else.

Cat: I can listen to an audio book while I'm driving people around while I'm making dinner. Like, it's, that's, and so I do wind up reading a whole lot for that reason, where it's. It's not hard for me to read a kind of disgusting amount, so my speed. Okay. So 1. 3 is like my minimum.

Cat: It's not going to be less than 1.

Laura: Okay,

Cat: If it gets really tense and I'm stressed out, we're at like 2. 5. Okay. Because I want to just like, I want it. That's like, that's sort of like skimming, right? Like, I don't know. I don't need to know the details of the fight scene. I'm too [00:07:00] stressed out. I just want to move along.

Cat: But, and if I, Really, if I don't like the book and I just need to finish it because I need resolution in my life, like, and I don't want it to DNF it, then it's pretty fast. Like, it's, we're going too fast. Yeah. But one point before, like, it's, I was actually talking to like Joel Leslie, who he reads my books.

Cat: He narrates my books and he is one of the, he and Julia Whelan, okay. I listened to at 1. 0. Okay. And like, they're the only ones. And I've tried to figure out why, like what's going on there. And I think Joel does speak a little faster. And so does Julia Whelan, but they also are, they do the voices.

Cat: Right. They do voices for the different characters and like, you can tell right away whether it's dialogue or a thought or right. And I don't know how they're doing this, but not all narrators can pull it off. And for whatever reason that lets my brain, [00:08:00] like, accept it at a slower speed because it's a story being told to me as opposed to me reading something in my head.

Cat: Like, which is what audio books usually feel like. I usually feel like I have to, you know what I mean? Like I.

Laura: Yeah I am actually like, I listen to a two point speed and every so often I listen a little bit faster because I process things faster. I've come to terms. Someone mentioned because I'm bilingual, I talk fast, but it's probably because I'm actually Puerto Rican and we talk Spanish really fast.

Laura: Like, We cut words, we don't, we just, we process. And so I need to, I think one point speed is too slow, even on podcasts. I have to now, like I actually edit at a higher speed just because it's just the processing. However, I would say like, there's a, there, it depends on how fast the narrator speaks because some narrators, especially nonfiction, whether it's memoirs where the author reads the book, they're.

Laura: Really fast. [00:09:00] You're like, Oh, I have to like, slow it down. Like, I think I tried to listen to our broker did has a cozy mystery series, by the way.

Cat: I did not know that. That's wonderful news.

Laura: a wonderful news. So the audio books are narrated by our broker. And like, I'm like, well, I'm just gonna have the two day show, talk about this cozy mystery about the two day show.

Laura: It's really comes down to it's a two day show, cozy mystery. And I was like, I started reading it and he was talking so fast. I was like, Oh, you need to slow it down so that I can talk a little faster. But,

Cat: Interesting.

Laura: I think it just depends on the narrator. And it depends. And people who are professional narrators are great.

Laura: You're excellent, and they tend to do a much better job than the non professionals, but there's something to be said about those non professionals, because they're telling you, like, the story, how they're emphasizing. I think I read the, I love Bravo, and I read the Daddy Diaries from Andy Cohen, and it was delightful, because I just felt like I was watching a Bravo show [00:10:00] of him talking about the Real Housewives. And I was like, I did not mind going a slower pace because I was like, I was so immersed in this. It's like somebody telling me the story about like, what's happening, to so and so housewife and this place just closed down in New York City. I'm sad about it. And I was sad about that place closing down.

Laura: So, yeah.

Cat: It is like, one of the books I read researching this book was a memoir from like a baseball man, and he read it and it was like totally not a professional job at all. And it was fantastic, right? There's a point at which he sounded like he was near tears and I was like, oh, I'm like, I'm definitely getting my Audible credits worth here.

Cat: Like where it was like this whole, like, I felt like I was connecting with the material in a way that I couldn't have under any other circumstances,

Laura: Oh, did you listen to Jessica Simpsons? Speaking of tears. Yes.

Cat: I have not yet,

Laura: Okay, it's worth the time. Even if you're not a Jessica fan, you may not be like a fan or your stuff like that. It is worth the time. You'll feel in the end that's Jessica's, you're Jessica's BFF. Like that's the feel that you got. She had an excellent [00:11:00] ghostwriter.

Laura: She does speak like things that ghostwriter and stuff like that, but she does such a great job narrating the story. And she does get some tea, not all the tea, but she does give you some tea about what happens, John Mayer. And all the different things, but it was like, such a lovely experience.

Laura: Like, I was like, and people, like, people have shared, like, it's a great experience to go for walks. And like, how Jessica narrates her story, like, her idea, like, they gather, you think it is one way, it's very different from what she really was going through. So that's a good one. I DNF'd Britney's because it was too new.

Laura: Yeah. Triggering to understand like how an alcoholic father can be conservator to her stuff. And like, it just understand her childhood. Like I the little that I understood her childhood and the crap that Justin did to her, I was like, no, this is too dark for me. And I wish

Cat: That was exactly why I haven't picked it up either. It's like I've heard it so good like as a book and as an audio to

Laura: yes. Like, who [00:12:00] is it which?

Cat: Michelle Williams.

Laura: Michelle Williams. That's a great narration. You just have to listen to the genuine trend. The Genuwine scene, when Justin was like, basically like, goes talk to Genuwine, and she goes and like, he asked like, this inappropriate sentence, and Richelle does such a great job narrating that sentence, and you're like, oh my gosh, you're trash, like, you're trash right now, but like, You're even trashier, but she does such an excellent job saying, like, saying in a straight face, like, genuine, blah, blah, blah.

Laura: I don't remember the

Cat: That's so funny.

Laura: Yes but so, but I find it like, audiobooks are a great way to, Want to calm you down to have like a better, better intake of information to deal with anxiety. Like, it's not so like hard hitting news on social media. And it's also a great way to connect, with like a different [00:13:00] story.

Laura: Like, it gives you a different sensory experience than just reading the book. So,

Cat: are a lot of books that I don't think I'd be able to make it through. If I had to actively read them, okay, like any like stress, stressful stuff is the big thing, right? I'm never going to read a thriller with my eyes. It's never happening, but like an audio is so it's a chance for me to kind of like passively consume something.

Cat: I never would have read also for research. Sometimes if I can listen, if it's a book that where I'm expecting to get, maybe just a couple of good tidbits, I can just let it wash over me. I'm not really paying attention, but I'm also not being left alone with my thoughts, which is the worst thing that can happen.

Cat: So, so it's, I like that you can't do the same thing by skimming a book, that's not the same thing.

Laura: same.

Cat: So yeah, I really, I was trying to remember like, what did I do before audio books were as common and as accessible as they are now? Like right now I get so many of my audio books from the [00:14:00] library, either from Hoopla or from Libby.

Cat: And I am every year for Christmas, I get myself a bunch of like audio book credits. Before that, I think I just must've listened to a lot of music. Like, like, I don't know. Like it's, what did I

Laura: I think I was listening to music and like, not even music. I either was reading or not even listen to anything. I think it was like watching. I tend to watch, I grew up watching having TV on the background. So I was used to, so I was used to having reality TV show, whatever it was like people screaming on the TV and just how they know it's a background noise. So probably that's why because I stopped watching TV in 2016. I don't know, for some reason I stopped watching And so it's like, I have like, this like, this black hole of like, no information for like, a couple years. And then I just incorporate audiobooks. And I was like, okay, and some podcasts and some things like they're like, a little bit of everything.

Laura: We probably had the 2014 podcast boom of Serial. [00:15:00] So, yeah.

Cat: listen to a I was like an early adopter with podcasts where my oldest kid was born in 2007 and I know I was listening to podcasts

Laura: yeah. So probably we were listening to podcasts and we were like, but yeah I'm like a super library user. I have like 15 library cards because I do pay for non resident cards to other places.

Cat: me too. Me too.

Laura: Great place to do and I'm like, I get the from the library and I just like consume them like it's right now.

Laura: I think libraries allow you to experiment and try different things without the option. Like, oh, my gosh, I spend money on this. Like, it gives you like, so I feel like I've tried more authors because I'm using the library more.

Cat: Oh, for sure. Like. Yeah. So the barrier to entry is so low. There's no reason in the whole world why I can't read a couple pages of a book or listen to a couple minutes and just get a sense of whether this is for me or not, yeah I no, I do that. Like, at this moment, I think I have, like, 10 books out from my library.

Cat: [00:16:00] And I'm not going to wind up finishing all of them, but they're all books that I want to try. And that's, like, there's a value in that, in, in knowing, okay, this isn't for me, or okay, this, I could read this another time, but not right now, and sort of, like, just making a note of that.

Laura: love this. All right. Let's talk to some recommendations. You are talking to us about some queer historical romances or queer historical books, like, so talk to us about your recommendations, a little bit about how you came up with this list, your queer historical author. So, yes.

Cat: it's so, queer historical romance is one of those areas where, like, it is difficult to find books that are, not difficult, but, like, finding books that are intersectional, okay, that are not super white. In other words, queer, but not super white. Is harder than it should be. Like, I've got a list. You know what I mean?

Cat: Like, like, [00:17:00] but it's, it shouldn't be like this. You know what I mean? And like, a lot of them are, a lot of them are indie. And I feel like that says it all, right? And I, like, this is not an individual readership problem. This is not a problem that I'm, that like, we're going to solve, like, as readers.

Cat: This is an industry problem. And I really do think that it's part of why historical romance is, if it is indeed hitting a slump. Okay. Like, I think that we've got to look at this as 1 of the factors is that you can have queer people or you can have people of color, but, like, you're not getting both and except under rare circumstances.

Cat: And as a tree, like, it is very. Like, that is dismaying. Especially when you look at all of the. When you look at YA historical stuff, and you look at fantasy historical stuff, there's, it's very intersectional, okay? Like, there's like, it's, and [00:18:00] so why is what we think of as standard historical romance so, like, in a different place?

Cat: Like, why is that? And it's not readers. It's not readers, okay? Because readers are perfectly comfortable with historical elements in fantasy stuff, and, secondary worlds, and like, all of that type of thing. It's not because readers need things to take place in the present day. I really think it has to do with how the industry perceives historical.

Cat: You're

Laura: think the industry perceives historical moments as Jane Austen, Pride and Prejudice, and then we had to recreate it so many times. But then we have to look back at the history of historical moments, and we had these non consensual, these very books, that were the founding mothers of historical romance for the 80s and 90s.

Laura: And then obviously we have shifted and we're now revisiting those old texts and we're upgrading, updating to sensibilities. And maybe we should spend some, and this is a me, my opinion. This is not the industry opinion and I have no [00:19:00] idea, but I think maybe as a reader, we should spend money, not.

Laura: We're updating all texts, but we should start writing or investing on new texts that are more in a line with other communities. We can still be in England, but we can look at other communities within England. We can look at the history of colonization in England, maybe other things. But I think it's. The industry is so worried about, like, trying to meet the 2024 sensibility, that we're missing the mark on the actual Things that happened in the reckoning that we had in 2020, you just, we just ignore it. It's just like, okay.

Cat: Yes, and I think that like, I feel like it's so grossly out of step with what readers obviously want. But it is like, when you just, when like, when I try to think [00:20:00] of it as someone who isn't like totally embedded in the industry, right? Like, I'm like, it's like, I can't imagine what it must feel like to like, if you don't, like, you know what I mean?

Cat: If you are thinking about historical romance as somebody who, everybody always says, but Bridgerton is popular, right? Okay. So, if you're somebody who enjoys watching Bridgerton, right? And then you walk into your bookstore looking for a. historical romance to read. Okay. What are your odds of finding something that you enjoy that has the same things about, that you enjoy about Bridgerton?

Cat: Okay. Where, well, first of all, a lot of the appeal of Bridgerton is visual. Okay. Like it's a stunning show. Right. And and the actors are gorgeous and like, this is, so this is like a whole, this is like a level of appeal that obviously has nothing to do with books. And like, it's also an inclusive show.

Cat: Like, you can look at it and you see right away this is not an all white thing, and that is like, I think it is, that, that is [00:21:00] not as easy to find in historical romance. Obviously, there are plenty, okay? It's just that you are probably not going to see those on the table in front of you at Barnes Noble. They're probably,

Laura: yeah, I think you had to seek them out. And obviously Indies are having its moment, but they always had its moment. It's just like the Indies were taking the, we're able to take the risk and have more edgier opportunities. So doing things that are, Because publishers, the problem is the publishers are buying things what they think are proven track record of sales.

Laura: And so they're more conservative about it. And so, in order for an industry breakthrough, they need to prove social media, they need to prove sales, they need to prove a whole lot of things to, in order to get this traditionally print deal or to have this stuff, because publishers are not going to take a risk.

Laura: And someone is like, Oh, it's going to be a flop. I'm not going to put money on things. And, Bye. It's hard to break through like how to find an audience. It's like, essentially the [00:22:00] author has to like. Put themselves out there and put their work out there and try to find an audience and try to build a rapport and then still write books.

Cat: right. And also like, none of the, a lot of this stuff isn't free either, like this is, so you're, even a lot of the stuff it takes. You have to, the ads and the mark, this is all, like, this is all money and effort. But it's, but yeah, anyway, I feel like I can't talk about queer historical romance without prefacing it, saying that we ought to have more that, like, there's, we ought to have more and it's not readers fault for not being able to find it. Right? Where, like, I know that a lot of people are like, well, you're not looking in the right places. And that's, in fact, probably true. But if you don't know where the right places are to look, then you're not going to find it. Like, you don't, you shouldn't have to be, do, you shouldn't have to know what like, who to follow on

Laura: in a haystack. It should not be needle in a haystack. You're just like stuck. Like it's sometimes [00:23:00] and I am. A person that actually knows how to find some information, but even that is so not enough. Like, I'm like looking for books like so and so this and I'm like, there is no, like, how do I find these books?

Laura: Like, it's like, it's a mix of like SEO keywords.

Cat: I feel like I'm about as well looped into queer historical romance as a person can get. Like, I don't think, and so when I asked in my writers group, like, I was like, I looked at, I was like, guys, like, I looked at my rec list, and so many of the books are from 2019. Like, And it turns out that a year ago, there is a sapphic cowboy romance, okay, and, or like cow, not cowboy, this is a I haven't read it yet, okay, but it's called They Ain't Proper by M, by M.

Cat: B. Gould, okay, G U E L, and this book looks like it was written for me personally, where it's Where it's like you [00:24:00] have a, like a, it looks like a rancher and it looks like some, it's, anyway, this 1880s Wild West style but I think only one of the characters is white. So, like, we're already, like, this

Laura: better start.

Cat: right, if it's going to be, if you're going to, in that setting, right, like in that setting, I feel like we want some nuance.

Cat: But, I hadn't heard of this. It came out over a year ago. Like, I hadn't heard of it, and I'm not, I'm like, extremely online, and like, and this book has plenty of reviews, so people read it. It's not as if this is like, this is, but anyway I feel like there's a discoverability problem that we can't totally lay at the feet of readers.

Cat: Like, this is industry wide. This is mainly a publishing problem. But. And so that's, that is, like I said, it is like a little depressing and also like I, and also so many of the books I love that are like historical and queer are like fantasy romance or [00:25:00] science fiction, or like fantasy with a romance subplot. Like the like the sorry, the Nevo's books. Okay. And CL poke, like these are, like, these are, I don't, maybe, but maybe like publishing views. historical romance differently when it's in a fantasy context and it's allowed to be more inclusive? Like, I don't know. I don't know.

Laura: Maybe they think it's a fantasy. Maybe there's just.

Cat: right.

Cat: Like, is that it? Like, is it, like, is it really just that there are executives saying, like, well, like, we can have, like, queer people of color because it's a made up world. You know what I mean? Like, there's magic. None of that happened. Like, is that really what's going on here?

Cat: Because, like, I don't think I can cope with that, like, that's totally what's going on.

Laura: But chances are, it's mostly the simplest solution. It's probably the truth.

Cat: Yeah I mean, and they're all, but they're okay. So here's one book I recommend is Adriana Herrera's Island Princess Starts a Scandal, which is Baphic, World Fair, [00:26:00] Paris, like 1880s or 90s. And it is like, unfairly hot, like, it is such a sexy book. It is, it starts, it's 1 of those books where, like, by page 10, like, you've already achieved, like, your 4th chili pepper.

Cat: And like, and it proceeds accordingly for the rest of the book, and it is like such a strong book, and I kind of want to read five more just like it, and there aren't five more just like it. Well, obviously there's a series. Okay. Adriana has a whole series in that

Laura: Hydrator needs to write more and I.

Cat: right?

Cat: I always feel bad saying that we're like, Because when people are like, you have to write faster, I'm always like, well, what if I just hide under my duvet forever, but like, but no, truly that series is special. And it's unlike a lot of other things while also being really clearly in the tradition of, like, historical romance.

Cat: Right? Like, there's 1 character who's kind of like a Duke stand in, and like, Okay. And it's all just like very pitch perfect. Right. And Emma Albans don't want you [00:27:00] like a best friend. Okay. Like I read that. I read, I listened to that in audio and it was a really good audio book. And that book is so fun that I feel like. when we're talking about like what direction is historical romance going to go in. Like I want people to hold that book up as something that's like different and fresh, okay, because it's a romp. It's just like It's just fun,

Laura: sounded like fun. It's on my list. I got the ARC for the second book, but I really wanted to listen to the one to listen to that. And I was like, just sound like romp and they sound like fun. They sound like just like idea like, this world like it doesn't have to be so serious.

Cat: yes it's there's very little tying it to any place or time. Okay. I mean, there it's very much like it takes place in historical fantasy land and I mean that in a good way. Okay, where it's it's. It's, [00:28:00] it feels colorful and like the side characters are fun and funny. It is, it doesn't, it has a, it feels like if at any moment the characters were to start like talking in 2024 dialect, you wouldn't even be surprised and it wouldn't feel wrong.

Cat: It doesn't feel like, there are a couple things in there that I think that. If someone were reading it looking for anachronisms, they'd be like, that's an anachronism. But I don't think it is. I think it's on purpose. I feel like it's to create a modern sensibility and to remind the reader that even though this story involves two, sapphic women a long time ago when it wasn't safe to be queer, these people are safe because we're in a 2024 mindset.

Cat: Like I really do think that it's on purpose to create like a bubble Of like, warm acceptance and that is which is exactly what the character characters experience is like warm acceptance from everybody in their lives, which is lovely to see. [00:29:00] And I have no interest in whether or not that's realistic, right?

Cat: Like, all I know is that it felt great to read and I will read, like, literally anything she writes next. Let's see, what else is on my list? Okay, so both Courtney Mont and Alyssa Cole have novellas, okay it's, one of them is like, that would be enough, okay, and the other one, they were both in that Hamilton anthology back in like 2017 or whatever.

Cat: And they're both just gems. They're novellas, which is, which it's, that's hard to pull off, you know what I mean? Like hard to get a whole, hard to do a novella that is also effectively a character study. yet they both do it because they are both at the top of their game, and they can pull it off. Erica Ridley, Perks of Loving a Wallflower. I loved it. It's another sapphic book. It was super fun. One, it is, again, like, very, it's very in the tradition of, like, what [00:30:00] we think of as standard historical romance, right? Like, with England, and yet it manages to be, like, really, it felt really fresh while I was reading it.

Cat: Like it felt, I felt like I was reading something new.

Laura: Recommended that one for if you're finishing polling season like the current Bridgerton season that's a good one to read, it's a complimentary to that vibes to the Bridgerton vibes that you're looking

Cat: Yeah, I actually think that and the Emma Alden don't want you like a best friend feel like very like if you're looking for Bridgerton energy, I think that I think that those both do it really well. I really enjoyed both of Emma Denny's books. Okay, one of them is One Night in Perks, but they're medievals, they're queer medievals which we don't get often right we don't get that often.

Cat: And so as soon as I saw there was a traditionally published. Queer, medieval. I was like, I need it immediately. , like on my phone right now, it was, and it's a deliver. It's first of all, like medievals are so out of [00:31:00] fashion in historical romance. Like they're so, like we simply don't do them anymore.

Cat: Which is sad because it's fun and, but I think that they were so common for a while that just the back, just like pirate romances were like kind of alarmingly common for many years, and then and then nobody did them anymore. But I think you and I have talked about this before, where there used to be a time when like every single historical romance author would have a regency, and they would have a pirate romance, and they would have and they would have like the, a medieval, and like Laura Kinsel, when you look at like Laura Kinsel's like back catalog, it's all over the place.

Cat: And I think that is something that we really lost when historical romance became this like reiteration of Jane Austen. And it's

Laura: I think we need anthropology ones, we need the archaeology ones, like those [00:32:00] looking around like the mummy kind of deal, like, let's remake the mummy,

Cat: also

Laura: over and over. I don't care. Let's just remake it. It's a great movie. It's a great,

Cat: no reason, it's what we deserve, and there's no reason in the world where you can't make that like, a new, like a nuanced intersectional story,

Laura: Like, yeah,

Cat: like, there's like, often the places where this archaeology is happening, like, is not England, and it's like, filled with brown people who probably don't want their stuff being stolen, and like, this is, so you already have like, something going on there.

Cat: Yeah.

Laura: yes. The Vikings are another one. I know there's quite a few Vikings.

Cat: it was the law where you had to have a Viking romance.

Laura: Like we're like trying to figure out like other specialties and stuff. Yeah,

Cat: and yeah it's but yeah. So when I saw that there was going to be a traditionally published queer medieval, I was like, I was so jazzed because I really liked that setting. I love Elizabeth Kingston's books. And. [00:33:00] And this is like a co her book. Both of them are like cozy. They have cozy energy. And the 1st 1 is basically a, it's 2 men and it's basically a road trip followed by. More coziness and the 2nd, 1 is sapphic and it is there's like, 1 of them is spent part of the book dress as a man to do sword things like in a tournament. Okay. And, like, the other 1 is doing brewery things. Okay. And, like. Breweries are like good medieval energy and swords are good medieval energy, and so I was and also like anything like if it's like if it's a woman doing swords, I'm like, I I just buy the book automatically and deal with the fallout later, and these books both were very fun, very emotional, very cozy rooted in history, but not in a way that I think would be like, I like to Google things and to learn things, but like, you can absolutely read those books without, like, you can emerge from the [00:34:00] experience having learned nothing about medieval history, if that's your goal, which sometimes it is, and there's like that need, that's absolutely my goal as reader, like, I didn't just let this whole thing watch over me, especially with anything involving science fiction.

Cat: I'm like, I'm just gonna let it, I'm just gonna let it happen. Look, I don't need to know what they're looking. I don't need to understand the mining rights on this planet. Like, I'm just going to let it happen. And I think that, like, it's okay to approach historical stuff with the same attitude. I just read a book that was super fun, but not a romance, but I thought it was a romance. And so like, I have like all kinds of feelings about it. It's on the Emperor and the Endless Palace by Justinian Hwang. And it's like so fun and so silly and camp. And I thought, I really thought I was reading a romance novel.

Cat: And I, it was, and like I get to the end and it is not, I don't think that's a spoiler, because anybody who had read even one Goodreads review probably would have gotten there. But like, but it was so fun. It's an end. It's like a triple timeline thing, where there's one in the present day, there's one in imperial China, and there's one [00:35:00] in, like, 1700s China and as I'm reading it, I'm like, we could have, like, we could live in a timeline where we have ancient, like, Chinese romances every day of the week.

Cat: Like, we could do

Cat: Like, I know Genie Lynn has a bunch, right? But, like, we could have, like, like, and also, like, that Emperor and the Endless Palace is, like, very queer, and, like, we could have had, like, we could have that. That is something that is it. There's no valid reason for us not to have that right?

Cat: But

Laura: Yeah, we need a little bit of like different countries, different settings, like, like I love Chanel clean. She writes historical fiction, but there's some romance pod because she used to be at the stuff in Cuba. And I love because our Cuban history is very similar to Puerto Rico history.

Laura: We were we fought the same war, we got colonized by the US, but they didn't, and all this different things. But I love like fact that like, there's so much like Latin and explore. [00:36:00] There's like India, even Australia. But you can look at China, you can look at Korea, like all this, like all these different worlds that can be explored.

Laura: Like, it's not just historical moments. I feel like historical fiction is the same place. It's a lot of World War Two. And I'm like, well, there's more than World War Two. There's Philippines, like, there's like so many countries that we can explore that have. Other wars or other things if you want to look at wars, but there's other experiences that have death and information.

Cat: Yes. Yes. It's it is. It's a missed opportunity, right? Like it's And obviously what's happening, what happened, what happened with historical fiction is similar with what happened in historical romance, which is at some point they both became kind of synonymous with a certain time period, like Regency for historical romance and World War II for a lot of like book club fiction, and and that winds [00:37:00] up getting stale and turning off a lot of readers, even if the books. are themselves like really fresh and interesting. Like it's, it becomes a, like from the consumer end, it becomes something that you've already done before. But I did read a World War I queer historical romance recently, but it really, it was, okay, is it a historical romance or is it lit fic?

Cat: It's In Memoriam by Alice Nguyen. Okay. Okay. So I didn't know it was, Going I didn't know it was like a romance novel. I thought it was going to be that like a game or tragedy and I did it way. Right. And it's so good. Like, I cried and like. I can't believe that the author pulled off an optimistic ending that doesn't feel like it's earned, you know what I mean?

Cat: Like it's earned in the way that you want it to be and in the way that like in a romance novel, you want, if there's an optimistic ending, you want it to be earned and not just because the author decided, right? [00:38:00] Like it's And that's how this feels, where it feels like both these characters work through, like, like, they both deserve it, like, you're happy for them, even though we all know there's going to be another horrible war, like, real soon, and that any incremental change in, like, queer rights that happened in the 20s, it goes away.

Cat: Like, we know that, right? But it feels, not uplifting, okay, but it feels like a very satisfying

Laura: I'm bumping that one up,

Cat: it's beautiful too, where it's also, I feel it, like, the tearjerker, right, as a genre has kind of gone out of style. Like the kind of, like, books that are deliberately making you have an emotional catharsis as you're reading it.

Laura: Yeah.

Cat: And this is that, like, this book is there to make you cry. Like, it's really sad. And and I think I don't usually seek out that experience. With [00:39:00] books, although fanfic is different and this was really like I, it's one of those books where I knew the next like five books I read, we're going to be like one star experiences because they weren't going to care.

Cat: Right. And so I did the right thing and I read five terrible books. Terrible, but like I read five, I read like I read five books that. Like just to kind of like we were talking before, like about like the kind of cozy mystery where like, you don't really care whether it's good or bad. What you care is that there's somebody finds a body and that's somebody, and then somebody finds a murderer.

Cat: Like, that's it. Like, that's all I wanted. So I did that.

Laura: simple, easy, like easy to listen either. Just like, it's a cozy experience. It's a power cleanser. You write five power cleansers that are just

Cat: Yeah, that's exactly it. And those books saved me and my relationship with the next couple of books that I read, I am a lot of the books that a lot of the queer historical [00:40:00] books that I find that I recommend. And that get recommended in places where I'm watching, right? Or YA. And this is something I have, like, I have too many children in my home, like, too many teenagers in my home, to like, currently, to currently be much of a YA enjoyer.

Cat: But historical is a little different, because it feels like I'm not reading about present day teenagers,

Laura: you're not reading about Jen off on Gen Z's.

Cat: No, I think, like, I think that, I think that, like, my ability to enjoy, like, a Gen Z romance is pretty minimal, you know what I mean? Like, I, like, it's, I'm just not, I think that I, just because I'm not the audience at all and I shouldn't be the audience,

Laura: I think we're moved. I think I know like a lot of it and I just had another conversation with another author who said like why I see that for teenagers and women and adult women, but I feel like I don't know when I hit my 40s I was like, I [00:41:00] don't have the energy to 15 year olds and going to come in at an age and talk about our parents.

Laura: I don't know. I think at this point I've had enough therapy that I healed already for my parents and healed the trauma, which is great, but that means I don't want to deal, I don't want to revisit this, where the trauma comes from.

Cat: A lot of it is, like, when I'm reading and these people have terrible parents, I want to do crimes, like, I want, I can't deal with that, you know what I mean? Like, where it's, where, That's not okay. And the other is that if I have to read about, like, reading about people doing S. A. T. prep. Okay. When, like, the current battle of my life is getting 3 people to do S.

Cat: A. T. prep is not leisure. That is not recreation. Okay. Or when it's like, kids who are super ambitious. And they've got it all under control, and they're going to go to, like, their good college and I'm, like, not having fun with that.

Laura: No, because you know what, I know they're true. I know their future. I am living that future. And I'm like, I have no [00:42:00] purpose anymore. I had to like, literally I had to talk in therapy. I had EMDR to talk about how I'm never achieving the next level. So. Yeah. The next level. Like I had a hamster wheel in my head that just kept running, and I had to run it to the ground to be like, no, we're no longer doing that.

Laura: So no, I don't want to see what your future looks like because I'm living in it and I don't want to do this. This is what it looks like to be 40 now.

Cat: It is very like, I like, yeah, like, I don't want to stress about, like, their future therapy appointments. Like, that's right. Like, that's not, that is something. That is like the kind of reading experience that is perfect for other people who are in that demographic. And I love that for them.

Cat: Right? I love that we are currently in, like, we currently have, like, there's so many amazing YA books out there. Like, we are spoiled for choice. And like, I have 3 YA readers in the house, you know what I mean? Like, and I love that for them. [00:43:00] I love that for people who read YA. And I will continue to, like, read sometimes historical YA when it is recommended so many times that I can no longer, like, that, like, I know, by people I trust, but like, one of the, one of the, like, queer, like, YA historical romances that I always recommend is Last Night at the Telegraph Club by Melinda Lau.

Cat: Like, that is an amazing book on every level, right? It is, It has like, you learn something about history, which is something I really like, but there's also this really strong sense of place and time, which, but without it being, like, you're not getting, you're not reading the Wikipedia page on 1950s San Francisco, right?

Cat: Like, it's woven into, it's woven into the story, and it's just so, it's like, the pacing is perfect. The book is just, the characterization is like, so deft, I really enjoyed that. And we [00:44:00] also have that series of YA retellings, like the Self Made Boys and Yours Ardently, and there's like two others.

Cat: But Self Made Boys is the only one that I've read. And I feel like the fact that these books exist. And are well reviewed, and are enjoyed, and get recommended every day, right, like, this is, like, this means there is an

Laura: there is an advertisement for it like publishers start buying some more of these books.

Cat: and they're by, and they're by big names, which is, you know what I mean, like, all those books are by, like, established writers, and who, writers who know how to tell a story and like do it, and I feel like the disconnect, I know I keep saying this, but the disconnect there, right, the disconnect, being this like well received, popular, well publicized, like, series of YA historical romances, okay, and then [00:45:00] the, for like regular old historical romance, we're like, it's really an Islam, okay, like, please look at the difference between the two, like the, like, what's happening in the one is that it's like deliberately Queer and intersectional, like deliberately.

Cat: Okay. Like, come on. Feel

Laura: Maybe as maybe as the Gen Z gets older, and they continue to demand, we'll see more of these I guess our millennial and our Gen X for like, we're like, yeah we're just we live so many unprecedented times that we're just like not willing to like we can fight it. But we need somebody, we need a vocal voice who's gonna do like the real voice on these issues, because we've dealt with like some bigger issues, like recession, 9 11, school shootings,

Cat: right, right. Burnt out. Little bit.

Laura: We've burnt out, we had a pandemic.

Cat: Right. Oh, but it is like, it's, but yes, [00:46:00] I, and again, like I am so happy that, I'm so happy that ya and fantasy. are

Laura: I'm having a moment, yeah,

Cat: right? That like, that they're, that they can, that they're allowed to have like, queer people who aren't white

Laura: yeah.

Cat: Get happy endings.

Cat: Like, it just feels, it feels like, it just feels like a sentence that shouldn't need to be said, right? Like,

Laura: yes,

Cat: but but yes. But like, right now, and it's like, I always feel like Whenever I encounter on right now, like my major social media is Instagram because I like, don't have the stress threshold for anywhere else, and,

Laura: fine.

Cat: And, but I feel like whenever I encounter a reckless, right. Especially cause it's pride month, a lot of it is, we want us to make, like you should buy these books and read them to support the authors and like show the industry that like we have an appetite that there's an audience for this.

Cat: Right. And part of [00:47:00] me wants to be like that, right? Because I do buy all these books, right? But also, this isn't how it works. That's how it works. Even if every single person who read that Instagram post bought those books, reviewed them in five different places, it's not going to move the needle.

Cat: Like the problem lies with publishers and what they are willing to believe of the market. And yeah,

Laura: yeah.

Cat: I feel like I go, I feel like this is, like, I obviously have like, not, I've been thinking about this for a while, right. For like several months I've been like, this is like, I'm like annoyed, and I have not talked about it, which is why I am processing it all loud, so,

Laura: But is it, I think you brought a point. I think it's like, understand, like, okay, what's going to move the needle? What's going to move the stuff? Whether we get a runaway head at some point that it's going to open up the channels, like, we're meant to see open up channels the same way, or it might just mean, like, we get editors who are like, oh, you know [00:48:00] what?

Laura: We're going to be acquiring just historical so and so this and they're going to, they're going to make a call to all the agents as, as we talk on offline about another topic, it's, it might just look like that where agents are being telling authors like, hey, they're actually buying these books now.

Laura: So start writing pitches and start putting it all together. Like, it might, we don't know how, or it might just mean like some Indies start hitting the top 100 and then we They get acquired and they are making six figures a month, and they're like, oh, the market is going for it.

Laura: Like it, we don't know, we don't know the market, but the pipeline for publishing right now, it's a pretty lazy publish, lazy pipeline where you have to prove yourself worth so many times in order for your publishers to be like, oh, okay, we'll give you some money now.

. . Yep.

Laura: but

Cat: And there's, but now I'm like. There's two upcoming trans historical romances I'm like super excited about. [00:49:00] One is a short thing and I do not know who the author is because I didn't write it down but it's coming out really soon and I think I feel like I keep seeing good things about the arcs but I'm waiting for the audiobook.

Cat: And T. J. Alexander has

Laura: Yes, I heard about that. I love TJ's

Cat: Oh,

Laura: It's so good. TJ is such a great person to hang out to like, so I am very excited for that.

Cat: I, When I saw that deal announcement, I had to like pace around my house for a little while about it. I was like so excited, because all of their books are, well, everyone is better than the previous one, which is in, which is like, that shouldn't be possible, but Triple Sec, which I think, did it come out yesterday?

Cat: I

Laura: think about yesterday. I got access to the audio book. I'm actually excited.

Cat: it's really good. It's like, I think that like, it is kind of weird that we don't have as many, we don't have that many. We don't really have very [00:50:00] many at all trad published poly romances.

Laura: Yes, which we need to

Cat: It's so,

Laura: popular.

Cat: right,

Laura: We have a whole genre called why choose

Cat: know, which is like, I know, we're like,

Laura: just thriving Facebook groups because I'm part of them. There's like 20, 000 100, 000 people reading why choose like, like there's nobody's business. Yes.

Cat: Is like. And I

Cat: again, like the disconnect there, right, between like trad publishing and like very clear, like, interest in readership, okay, is wild to me. And I don't know if it's because Y2 sounds like Like, like, it doesn't, does it, like, does it sound like it's not polyamory? Like, do you know what I mean?

Cat: Like, is it, like, is there something going on there? But, and also, meanwhile, I feel like a solid, like, at any given point, like, a solid 25 percent of the queer people I know are [00:51:00] poly, like, it's not like that, it's not like a niche thing,

Laura: peacock show couple to throuple. So we're going so we're moving away from the sister wives, mom to the couple to throuple. Motto, which is a much better motto. 'cause obviously I wanna see the downfall of the sister wife's, guy. Like obviously I don't wanna have that. Like that's not the why choose.

Laura: I want to, that's the wish version of it. That's

Cat: right, right, right, right.

Laura: But we got coupled trouble, which is like, oh, well we're gonna try to figure out, do we go to a couple or level.

Cat: And it's it's. Obviously having like, like, it's like that concept, right? Like either open relationships or like an actual like, struggle, right, is like something I feel that in the past like five years or so has moved from being something we don't talk about, to being like, like pretty normal

Laura: Yeah, like I think I don't like I finally come to terms I don't like love triangles, I don't mind cheating, it's cheating is not the issue. [00:52:00] I don't like love triangles because I'm like, well, why choose, we have both. Like, like it worked.

Cat: right.

Laura: do we have to have this angst of like, or should I choose one?

Laura: I'm like, no, don't choose just let go.

Cat: they all have something, y'all have something in common, right? Like, like, like, you can make it work.

Laura: You can have a poly relationship and we'll be fine.

Cat: It's it's, so like, to see a really well executed

Laura: Yeah.

Cat: poly romance is like really nice. And I had wondered how they were going to pull off pacing. Like, based on the, you know what I mean? Like, how, like, not that polyromance is inherently involve a pacing problem because they don't, but like, I wondered how that was going to work.

Cat: And because also, because TJ Alexander doesn't really do. I'm like, high angst, 3rd act breakup, like, so how is this going to work when you have to fit. In this book, it winds up being three separate relationships, right? Because it's like with each [00:53:00] individual person and then with like the couple, and then and like, but without there being like big drama, like, which often is used to knit different threads together.

Cat: Right? And no, like, this book reads Like, like a poly relationship is the most natural thing in the world to write about and I love that because yes, like where it's, there's, it was, it feels like an important book and feel super satisfying. Again, like incredibly hot like right from the get go.

Cat: Nope, no punches ball, nothing left on the field or whatever the metaphor is but like, it's, it was and it was like, and again, very fun, like very, like a lot of, like, you get it, like all of their books, you get the sense of like place. Right. And so, and like, in this case, and the food, the whole food industry thing is like I have learned much from TJ Alexander's books.

Laura: Just so hungry.

Cat: right. I don't even really drink. And like, this book had me curious about cocktails, like, I feel like the last mixed drink I had was probably a gin and tonic in like [00:54:00] 2005. And like, and yet I was like, oh, very interesting. They're going to use like an egg white float, but so, but yeah, I am.

Cat: So there's, yeah, the fact that we have, like, 2 upcoming trans historical romances is like, I feel like that's, great news. For me to read them. It's great news. It's like, hopefully great news about like what the state of the industry is and what,

Laura: Yeah.

Cat: I'm like looking for good news.

Cat: And and I'm like, and the fact that I've only heard amazing things about it's a sure thing is it's like, now I'm really looking forward to reading it.

Laura: I am looking forward to reading those. And so, Kat, tell us where we can find you online.

Cat: Sure. I am Instagram at Kat S Writes, and my website is katsebastian. com. The best way to keep in touch, like, to keep up with whatever I'm doing is my newsletter and the sign up is on my website. I think I send a newsletter out once a month and it winds up being 10 times a year [00:55:00] because sometimes I forget. So, yeah,

Laura: Awesome.

Cat: and I have free stories and whatever,

Laura: Yeah. Thank you, Kat, for being on the show.

Cat: thank you, Laura.