Apologies for the typos, this is an AI transcription

[00:00:00] Hazel Showell: Hello everyone. I'm Hazel Showell, and I'm here to guide you through the toughest transitions in life, business, and even love. Welcome to Endings.

[00:00:13] Hannah Jepson: I couldn't leave this woman who I'd loved for nine years on her own

[00:00:17] Hazel Showell:  In today's episode, I'm speaking to Hannah Jepson, gender nonconforming Northerner and business psychologist. The co-founder of LGBT ed, the largest grassroots queer educator network in the country, co-founder of the Lesbian Boy Band Choir, aspiring lioness, and sometimes even a poet. What a woman.

But Hannah, like many of us, has struggled with holding on for too long. It's a hard thing to know when you need to let go. Whether it be a job, habit, friend, or loved one.

This episode is about making conclusive decisions. By the end, you'll have some tools to use so you can feel confident you've made the right one. More about that later, but first, let's go back to the beginning.

Now I’ve known Hannah for a very long time. We have a fair amount of history, including the time when I once made them redundant. But far from holding her back from success, she thrived.

And when I say success, I mean it. Hannah was even invited to Downing Street for what they called a ‘big gay garden party’ to celebrate the work they had done for the LGBT community.

Things were going great.

[00:01:40] Hannah Jepson: Good job. Lovely house, a lovely partner, dog. That was the dream really. I think I, you know, I imagined what, I guess what lots of us do imagine in a, in that very kind of traditional sense of growing together and building our life.

Being there for each other and sticking through it, of course. So, yeah, I didn't imagine anything different really.

[00:02:03] Hazel Showell: Then everything changed.

[00:02:07] Hannah Jepson: I was made redundant. You know, when you are in a mission-driven organization, it's not just a job. It doesn't feel like a job. It feels like your whole world is taken up by this thing.

[00:02:18] Hazel Showell: But that wasn’t the only thing that came to an end in Hannah’s life.

[00:02:21] Hannah Jepson:

I guess just after that, my relationship ended as well. My world just came crashing down around me really. This stability that I'd built for myself really that I'd never had.

I wanted to build that for myself, and then it very quickly all just came kind of crashing down around me and it was an incredibly difficult time.

[00:02:47] Hazel Showell: With so much change outside of their own control, Hannah clung onto the things in her life that provided security.

[00:02:57] Hannah Jepson: I just went into panic. I knew all the things that I ought to be doing. I knew that I needed to be trying to grasp onto the evidence base that this will be okay. Eventually, I genuinely couldn't see the wood for the trees, so what I tried to do was, Stay, I guess I stayed in the house that we, we shared together because I wanted that sense of stability.

I wanted that sense of home and I wanted to sort of put off that feeling of being on my own,

[00:03:31] Hazel Showell: But the security of staying in the same home as her ex offered Hannah a whole host of new challenges

[00:03:41] Hannah Jepson: Staying meant staying during lockdown for a start. And it also meant watching my partner fall in love with someone else. And that was, Incredibly difficult because it happened fairly quickly after we'd broken up. I remember driving her to her first date with this person, . Now looking back, I think that was, that's a quite silly thing to do.

Tragically, the person she'd met was diagnosed with a very rare cancer about two months after they'd met. About four months after that, actually on Valentine's Day 2020, her partner died. I don't think about it too often these days, but when I do, I just have this really visceral reminder of just how painful that process was.

Then we got locked down and I couldn't move from it. I couldn't get away from, even if I made that decision at that point to leave. One, I couldn't cuz we were told we weren't allowed to. And two, I couldn't leave this woman who I'd loved for nine years on her own grieving. But ultimately for me, I felt I didn't have a choice.

I needed to be there for her.

[00:04:54] Hazel Showell: So thinking about when you finally decided it was time to get your place to start again, your independent life, what was that moment looking back that you think Yeah, now's the.

I

[00:05:07] Hannah Jepson: think what happened was that I'd, that the world had changed a lot. I had been really busy because the work that I do is obviously in diversity, equity, inclusion, and that world had got busy. And I was really in demand and I was speaking at these like global panels and you know, people were asking me what I thought about these things and my view on everything and seeing me as an expert.

And, there was a moment I'd spoken at, um, a panel, the Global Citizenship Foundation about, you know, how do we create inclusion in schools? And I'd logged off the call and I was thinking. , goodness me, I, I know my stuff and I'm good at this. And it was like I was sitting in my old house, but I felt very detached from that.

I felt like I had my autonomy back and it was that moment of professional clarity that brought with it also that kind of personal clarity of, okay, well do you know what? You're doing this now. You're doing it on your own. You're doing really. , why don't you also get your own space personally? Like that's important.

So it was almost like these two things merged and made me go, oh yeah, this is the time

[00:06:23] Hazel Showell: I've got this. I can do this. That's so cool. , you now building a different little, uh, set up. We got a new home.

[00:06:33] Hannah Jepson: Yeah. Don't get me wrong. Of course, there are moments of loneliness, but again, I think for me, my life since those big endings has been all about considering the traditional setup and what society tells us we should be doing, and not letting myself be led by that, but being led by my heart and my head and what I've, what I know to be right.

You know, I've done such a lot of introspection that I know myself so well, that I know that that life probably isn't quite for me, you know? Um, I'm not a very traditional person. Yes, I run my own business. Yes, I live alone. Yes. I'm not currently partnered. Some maybe would do that sort of tilty head on that and go, oh, I'm sorry for you, but actually for me, that is so liberating.

Do you know? That is, it's so liberating that I've gone from a place where I thought, you know, I wanted all these things to a place where I'm... Well, no, actually, like I love my life and I've got complete control of what happens. Do you know? I am the master of my destiny, and that is pretty

[00:07:42] Hazel Showell: cool. That is more than pretty cool, and I love your courage,

It's, thank you. Amazing thing. But it is interesting, isn't it? Like, say the expectations that are put on us of where we should be. I know you talked about how you found your place almost in the margin. of society and that there's a phrase in the systems work that I do that talks about edge walkers.

And many people find themselves not quite able to occupy the center of systems and are almost like professional edge walkers, very good at observing and holding space for other people. And so they do jobs like ours, but don't always find it easy to be. A system or central to a system because less traditional ones don't follow the patterns and so yeah, but can find a different way to be fulfilled and find happiness, but it may not look like someone else's version.

But that sense about being able to own your identity is incredibly powerful because yeah, you've figured out what many people can spend a lifetime doing, which is figuring out who you are. are. I think that that's the bit we wanted to get a sense of, of all the endings you've gone through, you're a psychologist, so now when you are in your, not, not to go through trauma, but you know, what would be the tool, the thing that you would look back and go, do you know what?

That would help. I

[00:09:06] Hannah Jepson: think one of the tools and in fact. to come beautifully full circle. It's a tool that I learned from you, which is the ACT tool. So, you know, I'll let you explain that, but I think for me, what I mean by that is I, I think it's about, one is about being present. and it's that whole, it's that whole getting out of your head thing, but being present at the moment when you are having a shower in the morning, being present and you know, connected to what you're feeling when you're going on a walk with the dog.

You know, not constantly being on your phone and checking whatever, just being out in nature and taking that in. And I think the other thing about that one is about, you know, acknowledging... Negative thoughts. Those ugly thoughts, those things that creep in and that can try and drag you back down and trying to just acknowledge them and say, Yeah,

[00:09:58] Hazel Showell: I love that distinction act between being willing and wanting a negative thought.

It's like I'm willing to have it, I don't want it, but I'm willing to have it. And just by letting stuff be, it's, yeah, it lets you be usually, but I am a huge believer, you know, in, uh, there is serenity and acceptance. I mean, it's a brutal ending. And I think you showed just the most phenomenal amount of love and compassion to be able to be there for someone.

To do that because of what it costs you. And I'm wondering that you know, people who might be listening to the podcast, who maybe are staying through for different choices, staying in situations that are hard for them, might also hear that because people stay in situations because of love or duty, but for reasons that are not theirs, but for someone else's needs, and that it's okay to put someone else's.

First, as long as you know that's what you are doing and that you understand the cost to yourself. And as you say, you've taken time since then to process the cost to you because there was a huge cost to you. And once you can process it, all things become possible. I think that's why the other thing that you can hold out for people going through something like this is hope.

So I'd love it if you could also share where you are.

[00:11:20] Hannah Jepson: I am incredible. I suppose the thing I'd say is that I feel centered. I hope that resonates with people, but I think I've done a huge amount of processing o of that situation. My I and my ex-fiance, are still really, really good friends.

We co-parent. The dog in true lesbian fashion, um, which works, which is fine. She got two moms. Um, and yeah, I feel I am, I'm happy, you know, I've got great friends around me. Got a great family. My business is, you know, again, my baby. Something that I, I've nurtured and loved. Something that got me through, I think some of those difficult times was that reminder.

There's bigger stuff out there, and it's stuff that I care about. I think the phrase that keeps coming into my head as I'm thinking about all of these things that we've talked about is I feel tougher but not harder. So I feel yes if things go wrong, they will get better, and I know how they will get better, and I know how they'll manifest in me.

It's also not made me harder. And that's been a process that I've worked through because I think when things like that happen to you, you can put the guard up, get cynical, all of those sorts of things. And ultimately, that's been a big part of my process has been working through not letting that happen.

Um, so yeah, tough, tougher, not harder, I

[00:12:49] Hazel Showell: would say. It's a fabulous phrase. And although we'd, we'd also talked about the importance of being able to run a walk towards something and not run. and I dunno if looking back on some of your, uh, endings and learning in life you have any reflections on that?

[00:13:06] Hannah Jepson: I think that they are all interconnected. If you think about what those endings have been, I genuinely mean, you know, if, if I, if I hadn't been kind of rejected by my mom so early on, you know, I would. Maybe I wouldn't have gone on to write a master's dissertation about the career experiences of gay women in the workplace.

That piece of research is published. Maybe I would've never had a piece of published research. I, I think had you not made me redundant, I wouldn't have gone into education. I remember that actually my dad was made redundant and part of his kind of advice to me was always, you know, something will come along.

And the irony is that the reason I met you is cuz my dad had done some work with you in his previous role and that's when we met. We've now been in each other's lives for, for years, and yet it came from a, an ending, you know, my first kind of professional ending. I do think everything's connected, and I think particularly because I work in a.

a career that I, you know, my career is something that is also a vocation. You know, it's also something that is, you know, it's values-driven. It is something that I deeply care about. I don't turn off, um, the, the D n I work, you know, when I, when I turn my laptop off, I don't stop thinking about how I can make the world better, uh, in some small way.

I don't take enough time to think about how proud I am because I know queer people who have understandably. Endings like mine in terms of family rejection beat them and that is understandable. Whether beat them forever or, or put them back in the closet or something. You know, for me, the two things are so connected because my career is about making people feel like their authentic selves and I've worked so hard to be my authentic self because of what

[00:14:54] Hazel Showell: happened.

I think it's interesting as well, isn't it, that as you say, so many people feel they have no choice, but to be a product of those rejections and choices by, by parents rather than actually, the only thing you need from your parents is life, and they already gave you that. It would be nice if they gave you a safe place to explore the world and they gave you a great blueprint of love and power and all the things that you, you might like from them, but sometimes they don't.

Though I know, you know, originally through or through the story that um, you might have had a slightly different plan for yourself. What, what, what does the future look like? Now?

[00:15:33] Hannah Jepson: The d n I landscape is, is like always evolving. So for me, it's keeping up with that and making sure that I., you know, in the position to, to keep helping.

That's the future as far as I see it is still doing this work. I don't think this work is going away. I think that people, you know, maybe people think that we are done with D N I now, but we are not. So for me, it's making sure the business does what it says it'll do for people, help people, and that I'm still happy doing that.

That's my future, personally, my future. I like to, um, I think because of what's happened that I try not to plan so much personally anymore. I, I just think my future is a happy one. That's why I think my future is happy and healthy and it will be non-traditional. I know that. So I couldn't tell you what that would look like.

Uh, and that's beautiful, and I think that's the

[00:16:27] Hazel Showell: beautiful thing. So maybe that's the interesting bit, the fact that you are comfortable holding, not knowing what your future is.

[00:16:36] Hannah Jepson: Yeah, and I also think that those endings have helped me build that skill of holding uncertainty because I was never very good at that.

If I think back to it, I can recall some, some of those, you know, visceral reactions too, the redundancy or whatever, but now, I'm so much better with uncertainty. I wouldn't say I'm perfect, but I, can hold it and I know that having a plan is sometimes really great, but sometimes it can only be a kind of service, to disappoint you if it doesn't work out.

So for me, it's like, yeah, what will be literally what will be will be, and I'm good with that.

[00:17:26] Hazel Showell: Hannah mentioned. And. That is acceptance and commitment therapy, and it's a tool we use as a psychologist to help people to deal with different things happening in their life, but without needing to particularly change them. So you might be familiar with or have come across different types of C B T, which is all about changing how you think about things, whereas act as the opposite.

It's about being able to be mindful. And almost let things go. Now, connecting with the present bit is almost like mindfulness on steroids. It's not ruminating on the past cuz that's gone. It's not worrying about the future cuz that hasn't happened yet. Cuz there are lots of great mindful resources.

There are some apps, there's meditation and tai chi. Even losing yourself in something creative or sporting can be good where you just have to be in the moment and know. Else. That's the aspect of creating with the present. Sometimes, you know, Hannah mentioned. Even a mindful shower. Think about what does the water feel like on your body?

What does the soap feel like? The temperature notice, the pressure of standing in the shower tray, whatever it takes to just feel things around you, to notice things around you, to connect with the absolute moment a said a no. When else, and I, I'm very deliberate about the when, because the, when we tend to be okay, but I'm here.

We're not very good at the when. Um, cuz we do get a little bit too ahead of ourselves. We worry about the future and we also get a bit stuck in the past and we ruminate. So when you can be just in the moment and that's it. That's a wonderful element of the act. And then when we get to let things go because I mentioned the serenity and acceptance, and this is that old Aja being wise enough to know what you can change and what you can't.

And to be able to know the difference and. Part of this is being able to visualize maybe negative thoughts that are popping into your head. You might visualize it as writing it on a lip, a leaf, or a piece of paper screwing up. And drop it in the river and let it just drift away. They're mentally allowing it to either drift away and stream, or blow away on the wind.

Whatever it is, you just imagine it just out of sight, lifting it from your hand and just drifting out of sight and what you're telling your brain is this thing that's occurred to me, I'm accepting it, it's real. This negative Thor has just occurred to me, but it has no meaning. I'm not going to worry about it.

I'm not going to focus on it. I'm simply accepting it. I'm giving it space. I'm letting it be, and I'm letting it go. So you are willing to have it there and but you don't. Because you're willing, you give it space, often you can just let it go quite comfortably. So all of these tactics and uh, views may have talked of tactics before.

You may have come across the monsters on the bus of you. Imagine that you are driving along on your bus with your, um, the, the negative thoughts popping up as, as characters on the back of the bus. You give them all characters and you get creative, but they are just there and you give them space. And when you look back, you.

Realize that they've just got off cuz give them space so they can't get at you. You're protected, but you keep on driving and that's the guided by your values part that you are taking action. You keep on moving even when things around you are difficult or traumatic. You don't get stuck because you know who you are.

And you heard very clearly in our conversation that. Figured out who she is, and it may not be society's expectations, but she's very clear about who she is, and that's an incredibly important part of identity. Many business owners may be going through really difficult decisions like letting people go.

As I did with Hannah, you know, many years ago now was when the banking crisis had just happened at the time. And you can be wrapped with guilt as, as I was at the time. You think you're worried about what's gonna happen to someone if you, um, let, let them go. And what I've learned since is all you can do is do the right thing for your business and the majority of people in the business.

And you have to leave people to their difficult fate. So even if it feels hard at the time you trust that they will be okay. As long as you are kind and you do a difficult thing as well as you can, they will be okay, and they will build the resources. And as Hannah and I have continued to be each other's lives and she's gone on to do far better things and you don't know that at the time.

You just have to trust. You do a bad thing well and you leave them to it and you trust that they have the tools and skills. And often they do. The key is to how you handle your sense of guilt and sometimes failure that you think you didn't get to be successful enough as a business to keep everyone in a job and that can feel awful.

Whereas when you learn to be. Good enough in business, I did the best I could, and when you recognize you do the best you can. So even when you have to do something like a redundancy, you do the bad thing, you do it well, do it the best you can, then you are a good business person. You are doing the best you can.

That's all anyone can ask of anyone.

So huge thank you to Hannah. I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Endings and if you'd like to share thoughts, I really would love to hear them. You can reach me at Hazel Cs on Twitter or LinkedIn, and if you're interested in understanding the endings happening in your own life a little better, I have the perfect thing for you.

It's my five-step worksheet developed specifically for you. This podcast, it's based on years of research into endings of all kinds. The First Step Own takes 20 minutes to complete and will bring you a lot closer to understanding how to make these difficult decisions around endings. Now click the link in the show notes to download your Thriving through Endings worksheet.

Now if you'd like to see a copy, finally, if you know somebody who might benefit from hearing. Dealing with redundancy or the breakup of a long-term relationship. Please share this episode with them. I'm Hazel Carter and I hope you'll join me again for another episode of Endings.

Endings is produced by Fascinate Productions