Hello., ladies.
Welcome to the Hourly to
Exit podcast.
I am so excited for today's guest,
Betsy Jordan.
Erin.
I'm so happy to have you here today.
Lots for us to talk about.
But before we get started, can you
introduce yourself
to the audience?
Sure.
My name is Betsy Jordan.
I am a business mentor and a
brand messaging and positioning
strategist for remarkable
consultants and coaches and their
unique strengths and experiences
and passions.
Very nice, very nice.
So who is your typical client
and how did you upon them?
Did they choose you or did you
choose them?
So my ideal client is usually somebody
who's either like one or two phases
in their career.
They're either at a corporate
kind of job and they're like, okay,
I've had enough.
I've hit the top.
I wonder What is this for?
I wanna have control over my career in
my life, and I have more significance,
and I'm not sure how to navigate that.
So that's one set of my clients and
they know they wanna start a business
that relates to their knowledge and
their expertise.
Like a consultant, coach, speaker
kind of person.
Or it's somebody who they built.
The wrong business and it's not the
business that they are loving and it's
not the right one.
I work with them and we use basically
the same processes for both of them.
I think they find me because of my
content, which is how you and
I got connected.
Very,
very nice.
So I've heard, you reminded me of
this term boomer preneur, but maybe
that doesn't apply.
Like we're people who had this
whole career and now they wanna Do
this consulting or things like that?
Is that a term that, am I the only one
who uses that term?
I don't know if I would use that one.
I use more like corporate refugee
or somebody who's like a mid-career
professional.
Like there's other people like Marie
Folio who's out there and I think
there's a huge difference between
somebody who's an entrepreneur
and that's their first career.
Mm-hmm.
Versus what it takes for somebody
who's mid-career, who's got, a certain
amount of perk status in their
job, in their.
Corner office, their status.
Everybody's expecting so much
from them and for them to leave that
kind of golden handcuff kind of
situation mm-hmm.
Into starting a business
is completely different.
And those are the people I really love
serving the most.
that is a shocker.
As well as just the way are staffed
has changed.
Like when I started my career,
everyone had.
What was then as secretary, but then
became an assistant.
And then I remember, this is maybe 10
years ago, I was working with a
client and I'm like, well, you know, just
have your assistant send it to me.
He's like, and this was the c e o And
he is like, I don't have an assistant.
Like, cause everyone just, you know,
kind of, and they just kind of do
things differently, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And, so to stop having that, support
and becoming an entrepreneur, that's
gotta be quite the shock to the system.
Well, that will actually feed
into part of what we're gonna
talk about today.
I mean, there's many things that we
could talk about, but that's corporate
to entrepreneur transition.
And in particular in the consulting
space where we're experts, we're using
our brains, we're gonna talk about
profitability, I'll let you talk about
what the differences are, but really
about profitability.
Because when we're in corporate and
we think about, you know, okay, you have
revenue, and then you got all these
overhead pieces.
rent and payroll and office supplies
and vendors and maybe when we are
solopreneurs, we.
Don't have any of those things.
So we think it's all profit, you know?
and we're not really thinking about
the big picture of making sure what
we're doing really is profitable.
Does it really make sense for us
to do this versus going back to the
corporate job.
And so I'd love for you to start big
picture about, what profit is versus
things like income and revenue and
how that applies the problems that
you see among your, clients
kind of wrapping their heads around
these things.
one of the biggest things I think
when people are leaving a corporate
job and starting a or any sort of
job and starting a business is
understanding that your relationship to
money has changed.
So when you're in a job, you're in a
compensation model.
what that means is I do work.
And then I get paid for, I don't
even have to get paid for it.
I get paid.
And I get compensated for
the work that I do.
And so it's a compensation model.
And I think a lot of times when
people leave that compensation model
and they go into a business, they don't
make that shift of saying, "Wait a
minute, I have to create a business."
And business is different.
So business is about, I invest
money first and then I get a return.
And so that's like the first big shift
like, any one of my clients were
advising their clients or going
to a company, they would say,
"Well, you have to spend money
to make money."
Mm-hmm.
But when they leave and they start their
own business, they think, well, I don't
need to spend money.
I could just go out there and
find clients.
And I'm like, well, if you're gonna
just go out there and find clients,
you're actually recreating your job.
In a business, and you're gonna wind
up in that trading time for money
trap because that's what you know.
Mm-hmm.
And that's what other people are.
So we think, oh, okay, well I'm
gonna go look for other busier
consultants and take their carryover
work, or I'm gonna sign up for this
coaching form and they're gonna bring
clients to me.
you're still in a compensation model,
so there's no profit potential in a
compensation model.
Because you don't have a business, you
have to think about money completely
different when you are starting
a business.
That's why it's important that you
invest properly in a really
great website.
You get clear in your messaging,
you figure out who you're going after,
and then you figure out like what are
different ways that you're going to
provide products and services that
are scalable?
And so that first mindset is you
have to go first.
And it's interesting with, expert
knowledge workers as I always use,
the example of the hotdog cart.
Because I did research one time
around how much does it cost to
set up a cop dog cart, and it was
like something like $50,000 you have
to invest to buy a hotdog cart, get
it up and running, find your corner
and all of that.
People would get that like, I have
to spend money on my hotdog cart.
I have to spend money on hotdogs.
I have to spend money on
condiments in order to get sales.
But when you're dealing with
knowledge, it's like, well, I
don't need to do that because I've
been doing this for a long time.
So it's the mindset.
Is the first thing before we could
even talk about the difference between
profitability, trading, time for
money, and all that kind of stuff.
Thank you
for that.
Yes.
Well, that's the danger of me
trying to set up something without
being the expert.
So thank you for that.
That is so important.
I, have been a victim of exactly
what you talked about and, some
lawyers never leave that.
Money, mindset.
but it is something that I see again
and again on the one hand, the ability
to go straight from our corporate
job to quickly, creating income, so
we can keep paying the mortgage and
things is one of the benefits of
it, but also one of the traps of it,
because you can get stuck there, right?
you can't scale.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not sustainable.
Mm-hmm.
when you're in a job and you're going the
job search process, you only have to
find one job and you're kind of done.
Mm-hmm.
You know, nobody wants to be
perennially out of work constantly
on that hustle.
looking for the next gig and the next gig
and the next gig.
That's exhausting.
Mm-hmm.
And at some point, some of it's gonna
say, well, forget it, I'm just gonna
go leave and get a corporate job
Because it is a lot easier.
And the other thing that you do when you
recreate that kind of role, like, I
hate subcontracting.
It's like, it makes me crazy because
if you give control over how you set
up work to somebody else, like you
really don't have a business and you're
not even really being a strategic
partner or whoever you're helping.
Mm-hmm.
you do all of this where you're
actually making less money.
It may feel like you're making
more money, but you're not, or
you think you have more freedom.
You're working the same amount
of hours without any colleagues.
really that are your colleagues.
Mm-hmm.
without any career opportunities.
and without all of the other stuff.
So it's like, it's the worst
of all worlds.
Yeah.
From my perspective.
Yeah.
Other people might like it.
If you like it, cool.
Like, I don't judge you, it's awesome.
But from my standpoint, I
didn't leave my corporate job.
I was a senior leader at Walt
Disney World.
I had a great career.
I had many opportunities I
could take in my career anywhere
If I wanted that, I would've
stayed there.
But instead I wanted to have control
and freedom and all those other things.
Yeah, there
is that illusion that will get
control and freedom from going out on
our own, right.
But if we really think about, if we
don't have some of the things you're
gonna talk about in place, that we just
have created a job without benefits and
without add upside.
So, all right.
let's get to how you help clients make
that mindset shift.
well, the first things first is we
really talk about like, what kind of
business you really wanna start, and get
clear that you're starting a business,
you to me, the way I help my clients
is it's more of an action learning
kind of thing.
It's not like I just sit there and
say, all right, well your mindset's
gonna shift.
It's like, your mindset's gonna
shift as we do certain things.
Mm-hmm.
as we clarify who your ideal
client is.
that's a starting point because then
you're gonna get clear of like,
oh, okay, I have a business that's
supporting somebody specific rather than
here's my expertise.
Like, that's where the flip is, when
you're looking for a job like the
spotlight, it is on you and all of your
expertise when you build a business,
the spotlight's on your ideal client,
for you when you were making this
shift is you are a corporate person
you had all this legal IP advice,
but you decided I wanna help women
experts, and there's a bigger why.
So you get really clear on that
and that starts creating that shift,
And then I work with my clients
through like, no, how they're gonna
stand out in the marketplace and
then we work on their website.
When you have your website, that
helps you start thinking about
like, okay, I have to really work on.
marketing system.
And I have to start thinking about
bigger picture, like what's my online
platform that's just like a brochure
kind of website.
So the mindset changes, like I'm
not a believer of mindset changing.
I just sit there in isolation.
My mindset changes, and then I could
do actions.
I believe that as you do actions with
intentionality, here's my mindset
gap, like if I have a money issue, we're
gonna have an actual tangible thing.
Like, okay, let's talk about
your website.
and how do you wanna set it up
and what's the money you're gonna
leave on the table?
And we work on it from that
standpoint.
there's like the action learning
kind of things.
And then there's advice I might
give along the way.
Like number one, there's many ways
that you could set up your business,
but I think you need to have business
money separate and personal money, a
wall between the two so that you
start thinking about the profitability
of your business and thinking about
like, I'm gonna get a salary out of it.
and that's gonna go over here, but
sometimes people kinda like lump
it all together.
Yes.
Like I have, have a client who sent
me a, a spreadsheet from a different
form that she was working on,
on how to figure out how much to
charge different than weight that
I would set it up.
Mm-hmm.
And they included like, here's all my
personal expenses and here's all
my other things and this is how
much money I have to make.
I'm like, no, your personal expenses
are over there.
you have to put a wall, like
there's a wall between the two.
Mm-hmm.
So that you can look at your business
profitability separately from
here's my income.
Well, let's stick into that cuz I
do think people get really hung
up on that.
And, first decade of my business,
freelancing everything that
I collected from my clients was
errands and that's how I paid the
mortgage and sent the kid to school
and that was it.
And there wasn't, This business in
the middle with me getting payroll.
tell us about how do you work with your
clients to, when you have someone like
an Erin who just has their money come in
and is not thinking about whether or
not it's profitable, whether or not
actually have a profitable business,
do my offerings make sense?
Is the way on building make sense?
would I be better off just going
back in house?
what are the steps to, helping them
think through
that?
First off, I would never suggest if
somebody really feels like next
step in their big calling is to be
a business owner.
Mm-hmm.
I would never say you need to burn
those bridges.
the only way that you're gonna be
successful over the long term is
to be committed to being successful.
Well over the long term.
Mm-hmm.
And you're never gonna figure it out
right at the gate.
So the first thing I would say to
you is like, of course you approach
it that way, no harm, no foul.
the secret to your long term success
is like you try some things out and you
kind of pivot and you go, it's not a
problem, if you're, depending on how
you set things up.
To, if you wanna have it mixed, like
some people like to have it mixed and
that is a way to do it, I believe,
in the firewall.
But the key would be is like I would
be asking you how are you investing
in your business and what kind of return
are you looking at?
And there's other ways that you would
price your services.
Like if you're not making enough money,
From your services, like, well, we
need to look at your products
and services and how you're
framing ' em up.
are you setting up?
a lot of coaches do this is they set
up their business in this hourly
type of thing.
where it's like, okay, well I have
my one hour package, that's a couple
hundred dollars.
I have my eight package, one where
it breaks it down $150 a coaching
session, and that kind of thing.
Like, well, you're never gonna
scale that one.
Right.
And that's not interesting.
I would probably say, all right,
Aaron, Let's talk about your ideal
client and let's talk about what
the problem that you're solving.
Let's talk about who they're turning
to, to solve those problems and where
the gaps are.
And let's frame up a very interesting
signature program.
Mm-hmm.
That would have a variety of different
elements that would be of more value.
So it's like, we wanna look at it
from that angle and we wanna look at
like, well, what are your profit goals?
So if you wanna make, let's say,
a hundred thousand dollars a year
and you think your average price per
client is X and it's like, okay,
so I need to create a $5,000 program.
It's like, well, what would we
need to include to make this a
$5,000 program?
It could include X number of
coaching sessions.
It can include a membership forum.
It could include an online, Course
it can include on-call access,
which by the way is high value that
people undervalue.
Mm-hmm.
And people don't do this “on-call
trusted advisor” because they're
worried that people are gonna take
advantage of you
Mm-hmm.
But it's high value.
Like I could call you when I need
to, maybe you include office
hours or maybe you include live
retreats, and all of that is $5,000.
So, for example, I worked with a
girl named Rachel.
She's a dating coach.
She was initially starting off with
like, I'm gonna kind of do this, and
it's like, no, let's create your program.
and her program includes an upfront
assessment, and a certain kickoff
in-depth coaching session around
X, Y, and Z.
Then she has X number of
coaching calls.
Then she has the dating profile
review included in the program, and
then of course, adding in those
special bonuses.
And it's all about how you frame
it, and that's a scalable offer.
That's interesting.
Now people are gonna be like, oh,
okay, I'm willing to pay more because
of the return.
Okay.
Got it.
And so when you use the term
investments, like what does that
mean specifically?
I mean, in coaching and, other types
of human resources.
Like what,
what does that mean?
Investment.
I think everything that you do for
your business, you need to think about
it as so, so you could look at the
profit equation and say there's revenue
minus expenses equals profit.
Mm-hmm.
But when I think when you're a
business owner, there's some
things that are just like expenses
you might say.
It's like for example, I
use Cajabi as my platform.
And I could look at it as a straight
cost, or I think about like, well,
what does Cajabi offer that allows
me to scale?
So Cajabi is like a all-in-one
kind of platform.
So I get my website, I have my email
marketing, I have my landing pages,
I have my courses, and all of this is
in one place, So if I'm spending like
150 bucks a month on Cajabi, I'm spending
less if I were gonna do all of those
things separately.
But I'm also spending less time
because everything's all in one place.
But then I have all my tools that
are there, if I can master, like getting
into Cajabi allowed me to go from just
mentoring people to creating websites.
Mm-hmm.
And to working on pipelines and
helping people with courses because
I learned how to do this myself.
So every time I get a bill from
Kajabi, every time I see it, every
month, I feel happy.
Like, yes.
because I know I'm investing.
Mm-hmm.
Or you might invest in a virtual
assistant, you so, you think
about the time you might spend.
So here's an example with a
virtual assistant.
So I wound up, signing up
for, Working with different
organizations and if you think about
like how much they might charge so you
can get some VAs from other parts
of the world for like $9 an hour,
I don't know what the US prices are.
Mm-hmm.
so just do the math let's say you're
gonna work on a P D F, like in Canva or
something, it might take you 10 hours,
but if you think about it from your
salary standpoint and how much you're
worth per hour, this could be like
a $10,000 P D F.
if you have a va, it's like way less.
Mm-hmm.
So When you're a business owner,
you have to think about money
differently and your relationship with
money is different and you have to
spend the money first in order to
get the return.
Got it.
Everything that you do, it's so
if you're thinking like, oh my gosh,
I don't have a lot of money.
Like when I first started my business,
I was going through a horrible divorce.
I lost all my money, all of it.
I had $200 in the bank and my
grandmother had passed not that
long ago, not long be around that same
time, and she left me, I don't remember
exactly how much, but it was like,
It was enough to cover my initial
business expenses.
Mm-hmm.
I could have taken that money and
lived for like six months, you know,
and I could have lived off of that,
or I took that money and I paid for
mentoring so I could learn the skills I
needed to learn as a business owner.
Mm-hmm.
I invested in a website and you'd
dep appreciate this, and I invested in
content creation from the get go.
Mm-hmm.
So I invested in.
getting articles, and I invested
in learning how to create videos.
And from that standpoint, I
grew my business at that point,
literally from zero.
I mean, I guess you could say 200
s, not zero, but let's just say zero
to 300,000 in the first 18 months.
Mm-hmm.
And it's like my mindset changed,
like when I was standing in front of
my first opportunity I had right after I
launched my website.
I had a client who really wanted
to work with me.
Like they handed me a proposal and say,
meter beat this, this job's yours.
And it's like, you know what?
I, I saw myself differently.
I took a step back and I said, again,
I was like really in the hole, and
I was a single parent at the time.
Mm-hmm.
I looked at their proposal, I'm
like, Nope, this is not what's in
the best interest of the client.
I gave a different proposal.
It I had to think like five times
more than what the competitor did.
And the clients were freaking out.
They're like, oh my gosh, we're gonna
have to break the, to work with Betsy.
And I'm like, mm-hmm.
And something came over me and
this is a phrase I use all the time.
Like, " No, that other person, that
is an expense.
It's an expense that you're gonna have.
I'm not an expense to be managed.
I'm an investment that will deliver
a return."
And they were like, "Whoa."
Then they signed immediately
on the spot.
So it's about the mindset around like,
I'm an investment.
And so I have to invest in myself.
I'm the product, I'm the product,
I'm the service.
I have to invest in myself and then
I'll get a return.
That's the key is, and then
you're gonna think about things
more creatively.
I don't know if that answered your
question or not.
Well, it did that,
more than that.
It was great.
I mean, that is so interesting
to me cuz I like to, talk about
things like, law.
You know, investing in lawyers and
they're thought of as expenses.
Like, okay, this is something
I have to do.
I don't wanna do it, but I gotta do it.
And it's risk avoidance and
versus like, if you use lawyers
strategically, to help you, put pieces
in place that build that foundation so
that you can grow.
it is an investment, you know, investing
in contracts, investing
in content.
and I have noticed in.
Like proposals, like if you see
something online and they'll have their
prices and they'll say investment
as opposed to price or cost.
And I like that because it really is
just thinking about it from, okay, this
is something that will have a return
on investment if I do my job right.
You do your job right, it's a
return on this and will help your
business grow.
I like that you used.
Just the term investment instead
of expenses.
Things that we could think of that
way, but I think it's the wrong way
to think about it.
I really like that explanation.
That was fantastic.
Thank you.
Well, speaking of, attorneys though,
like you're an unusual attorney,
who's also a coach and so you, are a
strategic partner.
Mm-hmm.
the problem that you might have is
that your field on the whole is very
much by the hour and very much commodity.
Mm-hmm.
and it's like you get into the legal
situation and they don't have like a
big picture plan.
Mm-hmm.
So the same things that I would
recommend to my clients who are
coaches is like, you need to have some
sort of defined.
Value that you're gonna create for a
client at the end.
Like, so if I were gonna work with
you in, maybe in a previous iteration,
it's like, "Okay, I wanna protect
my intellectual property."
it might be you would charge me
$500 an hour, boom, boom, boom.
Now my money's up in three hours.
Right?
Or you would say, "I'm gonna help
you create a body of work that is
monetizable.", And let's say your
package is $10,000, but it's capped.
Mm-hmm.
And it's a value, and I'm gonna
create a different kind of outcome.
Now, I could think about it
differently, but most lawyers don't
operate like as strategic partners.
Yeah.
They set themselves up because the legal
field, that's why burnout is so bad.
Mm-hmm.
it's like by the hour, by the hour,
and the client gets to the end.
Like, I never.
Ever, ever charged by the hour?
Yeah.
Maybe very rarely for like a one-off,
like, If somebody needs like a one-off
kind of thing, it's like, okay, before
I sign up for this whole big program
with you, like, can I just do a
90 minute session?
It's like, okay, fine.
Yes.
Yeah, I'll do that.
But never charged by the hour.
Ever.
Yeah.
Ever.
Because if you are by the hour, first
off, I haven't been an hourly worker
since I was, 21.
Like, when was the last time I was
an hourly worker?
Right.
You know, like, I'm not gonna go
back and be an hourly worker ever.
But when you're talking about, your
mindset, it's your mindset influences
the clients.
Like, I'm an investment and
therefore I'm gonna encourage you to
be an investment.
the thing that gives clients
happiness is like, oh, you're promising
a, transformation.
that's different than I'm going
to do X, Y, and Z and methodology.
Methodology.
Mm-hmm.
So you help people think about the way
that they're pricing they're offering
in terms of outcome versus inputs.
I help them think about the value
that they create so they can own their
worth and they can price properly.
Mm-hmm.
Based on the transformation that
they're gonna create for the clients.
That's meaningful to the clients.
Mm-hmm.
Right?
Yeah.
And then they invest themselves
in themselves properly in order
to deliver on that.
I have a good story about the hourly.
So, I worked with, IP-based
businesses for many, many years.
And, one of my big clients is
in the market research phase.
and then someone had gone over to
another market research place and
they're like, "Oh, I've worked with
other lawyers, I have to explain
everything to them, takes them forever
to figure it out.
I know that you know exactly how
to do this well."
I did.
And it took me no time to, like, I.
I can do this in my sleep.
I can fix your problem completely
in an hour.
And I was charging by the hour, you
and I fixed the problem immediately
because I'd been doing what they
needed for 10 years so my reward for
that was, getting almost nothing.
So
So if you were a more junior person,
it would take you in 20 hours
and you would've made more money.
Right.
So you're penalizing yourself rather
than if you can get it done an hour.
Right.
I just did an interview with
an executive on my podcast.
I knew he was saying like a lot
of consultants are looking at
like, here's the economic value.
And he is like, you gotta understand
the return on time.
so in some ways is like, well I can
take five hours to do this and it's
gonna cost a less price, I'll get it
done in an hour.
And you could charge the premium
for the speed,
right?
Right.
Exactly.
Yeah.
No, it, it is a tough one.
And, you work with men and women, but
for many women have trouble feeling like
they're overcharging for things like
this, like, I know that I could get
that done, like, and be done by, time for
lunch and how can I charge for that?
but at the end of the day, what is
the value to the client is really
what matters there.
So,
I think men and women both
struggle with, like, especially if
you're a knowledge worker, and you're
getting paid for your expertise,
it's very hard to put a price tag on.
Mm-hmm.
I see.
Men and women equally struggle
with that whole thing.
But I think what women struggle
with more is if somebody doesn't
have money, then they feel bad for
'em, where men don't care that much.
women are like, oh, okay, well I,
guess I'll discount it because I like
you and I wanna help you, or Yeah.
Let me do this for you for free.
Like, we're much more codependent
mm-hmm.
From that standpoint.
And men are really good at like, this
is part of my paid program, and men
are more aggressive in asking for the
sale, more than, than women could be.
Mm-hmm.
Oh, interesting.
do you, do you group coaching or are
they all individual?
I
just launched a group coaching
experience.
So I take people like through that
whole transition, from like, I have an
idea, I wanna launch it, I wanna move
into this thought leadership space.
So I do, there's some stuff that just
requires one-on-one kind of stuff.
So I do a lot of v i P days, like
brand messaging kind of stuff, wording,
copywriting and all that kind of stuff.
that's more like one-on-one.
Mm-hmm.
And it's not really something that
lends itself to a group, but I've
been very passionate about bringing
groups together.
Mm-hmm.
Because of the power of being with
other people who are in the same
place that you are, the learning,
and it's been really powerful.
So I started this Purpose to
Profits Academy, is what I call it.
And the promise here is like, we're
gonna get into really actionable
kind of training to help you develop
all the skillsets that you're gonna
need over time.
Because as.
a consulting, a coaching business
owner, you have to learn the skills.
You didn't learn it, you know?
Mm-hmm.
If you were in corporate and
how do you learn these skills?
How do you learn copywriting?
How do you how to write a headline?
Mm-hmm.
Or a sales page, or how do you
price yourself or how do you
create a proposal?
All those things.
And it's been really powerful.
I just launched it a few weeks ago.
And it's already been amazing.
Like the clients are able to bring the
specific things to the table that they
have questions on.
And don't just trust my opinion, like
hear all the other support and the
transformations that are really cool.
I love it.
Does, is that open enrollment
or do you have like a, cohort
that goes together at the same time?
No, it's an open enrollment.
Okay.
I decided it, this was like a
passion project I just launched.
It's, only like 2 97 a month.
Mm-hmm.
And it's weekly coaching.
Like right now the price is gonna
be at that point.
Mm-hmm.
I wanted to keep the price low because
I wanna have like purpose-driven
consultants and coaches together.
And so I deliberately kept
the price low and building those
actionable skills.
So we have weekly masterclass where
it's like we have a content and then
we have hot seats and conversations.
More content.
Mm-hmm.
It's pretty cool.
So people self-select in as
purpose driven, like what if you just
wanna make money?
is that an opt place for you?
Or,
I'm not really the best fit because my
belief is that the most sustainable,
most scalable, most profitable
business is the one that's aligned
to who you are.
and your passions.
Like it's, if you're a mid-career
person, like what's the point?
If you just wanna make money, go
somewhere else.
Like, I'm not your girl.
If you wanna make money doing what
you love, I'm your girl, but I don't
really wanna help.
I feel like it's unethical in the
consulting coaching space, to be honest.
Mm-hmm.
like, I'm not trying to be judgy
on other people, if that's the way
they wanna do it.
Mm-hmm.
when you think about the sacred role of a
consultant or coach, like we help ignite
transformation in either organizations
or people.
So let's say I'm a consultant
and I go into an organization that
might be struggling.
If I'm just in it for the paycheck,
I'm not gonna take all of the issues
seriously that.
Employees and customers are gonna
tell me, and I'm not doing justice.
Like you can't invite people to
focus groups and ask them to bear
their souls and not take what they're
telling you with, reverence it would
be saying, do you wanna go to a doctor
who's just in it for money without caring
about the patient?
Mm-hmm.
do you wanna hire a coach who just wants
to get famous, or do you wanna have
a coach who cares about helping you?
To me, the purpose-driven is an
alignment with the client-centric, like
a purpose-driven.
Mm-hmm.
Client-centric service, they're
all the same.
You cannot have a purpose-driven
business if you don't have somebody
that you actually care about helping.
Like when I talk to you on my
podcast About.
Intellectual property, you
are right away.
Like, I wanna help people who are
experts and I wanna help women because
I believe that women are all about,
wealth in the hand of women, hands of
women is going to make a difference
in society.
And so of course if I have all
these options, like why would I
go to someone who just like, oh, I'm
a really smart.
intellectual property attorney,
please, here's my $500 an hour rate.
Or do I wanna have someone that's
like, wow, you really care about
me, you care about my intellectual
property, you care about me having
wealth so that I could give back
to the world.
Mm-hmm.
and even planting the seed around
how am I gonna give back to the world?
why would I ever wanna go
to anyone else?
Yeah.
I
agree that, and that's nice.
and they'll coming at it from that
point of view as a group that
they're all on the same page about
that and making sure that they're
helping people.
I love that.
So is there anything new in 2023 that
you're seeing this different, you've
been doing this, I think you said
15 years, what's on the horizon in
who's coming outta corporate now and
how is it different from the people who
are coming outta corporate pre
pandemic, maybe.
actually, those are two different
questions that are kind of related.
For people who are coming outta
corporate right now, I think it's just
we're seeing the residuals of the
whole pandemic, post pandemic and people
wanting more balance in their lives
and, organizations.
I've seen a difference
in the past.
I would say there was a shift in 2008
and there's a shift now, before 2008.
you had like this many customers and
this many employees in it kind of match.
Mm-hmm.
2008 with a recession's, like
okay, customers dropped off,
then they dropped employees, and
then when customers started coming
back, they kept employees like this.
Mm-hmm.
And so now employees were working
2, 3, 4 jobs.
in the past.
And there was no time to think
and all of that.
And then I think with the pandemic,
it accelerated that whole thing
the workloads are crazy, but then
it's like companies are navigating
the virtual workforce versus
the live workforce.
And I think that there's a shift from
that standpoint.
So I think that people
are coming out.
Are a little bit like battle
fatigued.
They're a tight, like in 2020, a
lot of people are really energetic.
Like, okay, I'm gonna take
charge of this.
I'm gonna invest in my website,
all of this Right now, people have
more economic uncertainty, there's
more fear, and I think there's
just a collective soul exhaustion.
Mm-hmm.
That's at a different level now.
Like, so I think that from that
standpoint, as it relates to business
development, My favorite obsession.
I'm obsessed with ai.
I'm obsessed with chat.
G P T I just discovered it
yesterday, like
literally yesterday.
Like I've made it my, little
assistant, you you know, my
husband walks by and he's laughing.
He is like, watching me, with chat
G P T, and it's like, no, that's
not what I want.
I want this, you and I'm learning
how to make chat, G B T B, my junior
copywriter, oh, and my junior content
creator, like talking about ip.
that's actually an issue for you.
it's like if people are creating a body
of work, how do you differentiate
between what chat cheap PTs creating
versus what you're creating?
But it's fascinating.
I could say, I could write something,
I'm like, Hey, could you rewrite
this in the voice of Betsy And it,
does my voice, I'm like, This is weird.
how do you know my voice?
So you
fed it like your past writings,
and then it kind of goes, okay,
this is the way she generally
write.
How does it.
It knows my writings.
I did something, I played around
with it once.
It was like I took something I
was working on.
I'm like, can you rewrite this
in The Voice of Betsy Jordan?
And then I did that, and then it's
like, you and I both know Carol Cox.
So I'm like, can you rewrite it in The
voice of Carol Cox?
So speaking your brand and then
rewrote it in Carol's language.
And I was like, oh, that's so weird.
I was like, little shifts between
the two of us.
like, this is fascinating.
it's very fascinating.
Even little things like, Hey, can you
give me a script on how to confront
my adult daughter who's living with
me now and, how to ask her to help me
know, clean up more.
it's like, oh, well, and then it
would just gimme a little script.
I'm like, ah, this is pretty
good, Mm-hmm.
I think that that's gonna be a trend
that we need to be paying attention to.
I think that's gonna really shake up
the marketing world and the content
creation world in a very big way.
Yeah.
the reason it even came across my,
desk, so to speak, because I To me,
AI was just way outside of, I'm
like, ah, I can't, after I was doing
a legal M C L E, you know, training
about the impact of ai, like the
legal implications of ai, and they're
describing all the things it could
do, I'm like, it could do that.
It could do that.
So immediately had to go on like, yeah.
And so now I'm obsessed too.
I spent the afternoon, on
chat, G P t.
Oh my God.
I asked Zach chat, g b t before
our interview.
I'm like, what are some good questions
I could ask Aaron on my podcast.
And it's like, Aaron Austin
is an attorney and a business
strategist who does X, Y, and Z.
and so he gave me a bunch of ideas like,
you what inspired you to become an
an intellectual property attorney?
Have you always worked for
yourself or did work for a firm?
what is intellectual property?
what's the best way?
It had all kinds of questions.
Like I didn't necessarily ask you
those questions.
Mm-hmm.
But it's like, that was an interesting
starting point.
one of the things that came out during
this training is because lots of law
firms have already started using it,
and Before we even really heard about
it, cuz they use it for document
production and, doing due diligence
and all this stuff what it will be is
like, you know, will it replace lawyers?
It's like, well no, but lawyers who
don't use it will be at a massive
disadvantage.
And that it may even be that it could
be, you malpractice not to use it.
Because what if you miss something,
if you've got a thousand documents
to look at and you use people instead
of AI and you miss something, it's
at malpractice.
So, and I imagine.
In other industries, because you can
be more efficient and maybe, perform
more quickly, more accurately, maybe
charge less, that if you're not using
it, that it will be a disadvantage.
it's like someone not having a website
if you're not using ai, you know?
I think that that's interesting,
because there's two flip sides.
Like you can't really replace the
expertise, but I worry that it's
gonna make us dumb.
I spent a lot of time thinking about
like our interview.
Mm-hmm.
And what I wanted to talk about.
obviously I approached you in
the beginning to say, I want you
on the show for a particular reason.
But the creative process of trying
to figure like, okay, what is it
that I wanna say?
is a risk factor, but that's
a big thing.
that's coming up.
the initial point of this particular
podcast is all around like,
thinking about profit and how
to, think about profit from a
scale standpoint is it does create
more efficiencies.
Mm-hmm.
So that allows you to scale and if you
don't have money to invest in assistance
or if you are using assistance,
it allows you to do that.
I like that.
Well, you did touch on like the AI.
And IP and the conflicts there.
But when you're working with your
clients, and I know, developing
thought leadership and content is
part of what you help them do.
do explicit questions about
intellectual property come up?
Like what are they thinking about
building IP assets?
Are they thinking about that journey
from hourly to exit?
what, happening around those issues?
I look at everything like in a five
step, you and I are process people.
Mm-hmm.
so To me, there's like five phases
of your business.
First, it's you gotta start the
right business, then you gotta figure
out your brand messaging position
and your website and getting your
website situated.
And then you need to be in some sort
of process where you know how to
convert clients.
And then the ultimate place
is that thought leadership.
Mm-hmm.
Because that is where you scale
and there's no other way to scale
without content.
there's no way that you're gonna
be a premium brand position.
You can't raise your fees because without
content you're not gonna look
like that expert.
if without content, you can't
really show up on social media.
You can't really stand out.
I have some clients who are naturally
inclined in that way, but most of
my clients are a little bit afraid
of intellectual property of the
vulnerability, you this is where the
whole transition from corporate to
this kind of stuff.
It's like, well, I put my
ideas out there.
Like, I remember the first time I
was creating videos, it was like, I
was overwhelmed.
Like my first video guy, I'll never
forget this whole thing I went to, his
place and I wound up staying with him
and his wife, and before I left, he's
like, okay, you're be doing scripts.
you're gonna be doing scripts to
the teleprompter.
I'm like, no, no, no, Chad, I
don't do that.
Like, I'm just gonna be on the cuff.
You know, I'm gonna be on the flight.
And he's like, no, no, no, you're
gonna do that.
I'm like, Okay, fine.
So I got there and I wrote some scripts.
So I go downstairs and I read my
script to him and he records and
he is like, Nope, this is terrible.
Go back up.
I'm like, ah, okay.
So I go back up and then I write
another one.
He is like, no, this is still terrible.
Go back up.
And then I come back down.
He is like, okay, this is good.
And I wrote like seven
different scripts.
We were hoping for three videos.
Mm-hmm.
But once I got three.
Videos up.
I was able to get like seven that day.
I learned something at that particular
point, like how to quickly
manifest the ideas.
when my website launched, like I
was landing clients, from other parts
of the world, like people, I never
met six figure engagements because
of the power of my content.
Wow.
Because I had videos, because I
had all of this.
So my whole global business is built on
content, so, Content is essential, but
the questions that I would ask like
first, people have to be ready for it.
But where the source of your
content is, it's not even just in
your formal business experience mm-hmm.
Is in your personal experience.
So we work on what's your story
and like, what's your big idea?
I have a client who is a cancer
survivor, and at the same time when
she had cancer, her dad had cancer
and he had passed.
And so she's already been a productivity
kind of person.
Mm-hmm.
But this experience ignited her.
It's like, We don't have time to waste
with inefficiencies.
We need to get our work done
fast so we can go live our lives.
And so when she works on content,
it's not like, okay, let's just talk
about productivity.
Mm-hmm.
It's talk about let's say somebody
might say well, what are five ways that
you can maximize?
how the service delivery or
something like that.
Mm-hmm.
Like, and the reason why this is so
important is, just keep reinforcing
this big idea.
Yes.
There's a story behind why wealth
in the hands of women is important.
Mm-hmm.
if you're creating content, there's
always like that reiteration of this
bigger picture.
it's not just about creating a
body of work, it's about creating
wealth so that you can give back to
the world, right?
Mm-hmm.
And keep bringing it back to that point.
That's what I, I didn't do when I
started my content and now my content
is really clunky.
So with my clients, I call it your
controlling idea.
Kind of like your thesis
of your paper.
Mm-hmm.
Have clarity on your thesis so that
everything that you write about supports
that main point.
That's very nice.
Well, this is a very meta podcast,
I like to say.
So it is about for female founders
of F businesses who are building
a business that they can hopefully
sell someday.
So do you have future plans for
your business that may include
selling?
Yeah, my husband keeps talking
about this one.
I would love coaching on that
one because it's hard for me to
visualize, like, how would I sell?
my business when it's so tied to
my personality.
Mm-hmm.
So that would be like, of course,
who wouldn't want that at some point?
I don't see myself retiring ever at
a point, but the idea of having that
opportunity, but I can't visualize it.
So that's where I would refer to
someone like you.
Like, paint a picture for me.
What would that look like?
Well, I like
to say that the things that help you
scale your business are the same things
that would help you sell your business
in the future.
So things that are decoupling the
income from you, Betsy, you know,
putting in the work.
So developing frameworks,
developing courses, having maybe
additional coaches on, you know, who
could, run the business after you,
or having something that, if an.
Bigger coaching company, Johnny, you
know, tiny Robbins came over and said
he wanted to buy your, framework to
have something that you could sell.
But those are the same things that
you are doing anyway to grow your
business today.
So, You're laying them foundations
for that already.
That's
it.
That's a such an interesting picture.
Mm-hmm.
that would be an interesting, this
thing to see is more like how do
you paint that picture of what
would it look like?
Mm-hmm.
For to sell a personal business.
Franklin Covey did it, you know?
they're not alive anymore.
I'm sure Marshall Goldsmith's gonna
have the same thing.
He's got a legacy business.
Brene Brown probably has a
legacy business.
Oh, I'm sure.
Uhhuh.
But it's like how to see yourself
in that same way.
Yeah.
you're a parent.
So we can look at our businesses as
raising children that are going
to be independent from us someday.
Like how can this kid possibly be
independent from us?
But if we're raising them correctly then
they will go on and succeed without us.
think of it a little bit that way too.
So, Interesting.
All right, so you've mentioned
your new, group coaching, program
that you have launched Evergreen.
So where can people find you, and if
there is, freebie or something that
you like people to
sign up for, so my website is www
dot Betsy Jordan and Jordan's with
an Y, not an a.
There's, you'll have Be People.
Yes.
Thank you.
There's a Betsy Jordan with an A out
there who gets all my emails, dot com.
so that's my website so you can find out
more of my services.
So if you go to that same U R L,
but add services.
So I have my signature coaching
program, which is like my
brand messaging.
That's the one that everybody goes
through if they're working with me
more extensively.
And that's really getting clarity
on your, ideal business model, how
you fit into the marketplace, how
you stand out in the marketplace.
And to me, that's the part where I've
leaned in where other business
mentors like gloss over, that's the
really important foundational thing.
and if you wanna find the academy,
you just, betsy jordan.com/academy.
Super fun.
this is like my fun play area, you
the other part's, like it's hard
work, you I make my clients work
cuz it's like a lot of contemplation,
pulling stuff out.
but I got a ton of freebies, so if
you go under free resources, I have
free templates, tools, I have a
script on, how to articulate
what you do.
I have a, eCourses for free where I
collected some of my content on, Imposter
syndrome, like a lot of people deal with
imposter syndrome.
So I have the cure for imposter
syndrome.
It's a little mini course where
I've collected my podcasts and some
interviews and stuff like that.
So that's a starting place there.
So there's lots of freebies
on my website.
You can go to my YouTube channel.
There's a ton over there.
Or my Enough already podcast.
That's another passion project.
my two fun things, like obviously
I still love Mike branding.
I love branding so much because it's
like, bringing in the inside
of somebody out.
Mm-hmm.
But it, it is a lot of work.
So my play areas is my podcast The
Enough Already Podcast and the
Purpose to Profits Academy is more
like my play areas.
Well,
since you brought up imposter syndrome,
I'm just gonna ask this quickly.
So I have this theory that
consultants, experts, don't
think that they are ready for ip.
Like, the big people.
and to think that I'm ready for IP is
maybe an imposter syndrome issue.
do I have anything there?
Oh, for sure.
I think imposter syndrome hits
every single time you're hitting
a step change in your career.
So to me, imposter syndrome is like,
okay, do I have what it takes?
Do I have what it takes?
Well, that's because you're really
dealing with the fear of the unknown.
I've never done it before.
it's like I don't really necessarily
know how to do it, but I think
what, I like what you say that is a
good cure for the imposter syndrome.
Well, first off, you have
to normalize it.
Mm-hmm.
And you have to say like, imposter
syndrome is actually the part that makes
you wanna crawl under bed and never
come out again.
If you flip it into the light
attribute, it's your integrity saying,
I don't wanna make a promise that
I can't deliver.
I don't wanna do some of that.
Like, it's not just about the fear of
rejection or the vulnerability,
but it's also like there's an
integrity element.
So, from imposter syndrome standpoint
is like first off, you have to
acknowledge it and you have to
appreciate it.
it's just trying to keep you safe,
it's not a bad part of you.
Like I'm absolutely not a fan when
people would say all the chatter
in your head.
It's like, it's a gremlin, you
need to eradicate.
I'm like, well, that's
a part of you.
And if you eradicate, if you
try to suppress the, bad part, you're
gonna suppress the good part.
And the good part is, I still have a
vision for something bigger than where
I'm at right now.
So if you're worrying about
intellectual property there's
some part is like you normalize
it, and you understand, well,
what does it need?
And it's like, well, maybe it
needs someone like you who can help
draw out of them.
Or someone like me, we could draw
out of you what your intellectual
property is invalidate that.
This is interesting.
Mm-hmm.
and the thing is me, with ip, Is, I know
I'm doing good IP or is when I'm the
learner, there's a lot of times like
I'm not creating ip, I'm channeling ip.
Mm-hmm.
and it's like when I'm channeling
the ip, that's the interesting stuff.
Mm-hmm.
So then it's like, I just did a podcast
on decoding the profit puzzle.
You the difference between stable
profits, sustainable profits, and
scalable profits.
And they're different
kind of thing.
And it hasn't really gotten like
huge hits cause I think people
like hearing more from me about like
strengths and how to communicate value.
Mm-hmm.
But still I have that mindset, but
even though if it didn't perform as
well as maybe all the other ones, like
I learned something very different.
Right.
That really prepped me for
our conversation is I'm very clear
on the difference between this the
scalable thing.
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
That I never really thought about.
Like I was all about the sustainable, I
want predictability, stable profitability
is one, but sustainable.
Like, I wanna be in this over the
long term, but it's like having
that new vision.
so it's like creating that
podcast, it's like, okay, fine.
it's not my best.
It's not gonna be like my seminal
one, but I learned something.
Yeah.
And I think if I were gonna talk
to anybody, Who's listening about the
imposter syndrome is, I would go back
to what you say is you have stuff in
your head, you just have to manifest it.
Mm-hmm.
In order to make intellectual
property.
Mm-hmm.
Right.
But I think that the other thing
is, is that you're the first learner.
It's interesting for you, it'll
be interesting for other people.
And if you just go and put stuff
out there, like the beauty about
intellectual property, especially
if you do a blog or a podcast YouTube
channel, like there's always
another day, right?
You know?
Or it's like, okay, well that one was
a bust, or like that one was a hit.
You never know what's gonna
be a hit, but go with what's
interesting, you And you'll learn,
say, the fastest way to continue
to develop your expertise is to
create more content around it, doing
research around it, putting it out into
the world, getting feedback on it.
not only the perception of your
expertise, but the actual increase
of your expertise, from continuing
to create.
there's like a book I would
recommend is, I would recommend Big
Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert, if you
wanna get over it.
so what, Elizabeth Gilbert says
is, ideas are energetic forms
that are waiting to be manifest.
And they're looking for a human
collaborator to make it manifest.
if you don't say yes to the idea, the
idea's gonna move on to somebody else.
Yeah.
And so it's like at the ideas.
Is like almost a separate entity
that you could do a little dance with,
then it's fun.
It's like I'm having a relationship
with my ideas.
Mm-hmm.
It's not like, oh, it's so attached
to me, and it's like, oh, okay,
this is my ideas.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, no, the idea is separate
from me and I'm having fun with
it, and I'm just bringing it to life.
Like again, I.
The best content is gonna be the one
that you channel not necessarily create.
Mm-hmm.
So the more you're in your head, the
less interesting it's gonna be
for you and for your audience.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Agreed.
All right.
Nice little bonus at the end there.
Thank you so much, Betsy.
Thank you, Erin.
It was so much fun being on your show,
and I'm so excited about what you do.
I'm fascinated by everything that you
say and I cannot recommend you
enough to anybody who's working on,
really monetizing their body of work.
You have the right heart, the right
mind, you've got the whole package.
So thank you for having me
on the show.
Well, thank
you.
This has been a joy.