Marin: I would say that most important thing is creative, so basically your
ad whether it is a video or an image, because nowadays interest targeting
is not so important because your creative is doing the targeting.
​ Matt: Welcome to the e-Commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson.
The E-Commerce podcast is all about helping you deliver e-commerce wow.
And to help us do just that, I am chatting with today's special guest,
Marin Ištvanić from, uh, inspire Agency about how to maximize the efficiency
of Facebook ads for your business.
Oh, yes.
We are touching onto all things Facebook ads, but before Marin and I dive into
our conversation, uh, I'd like to share with you uh, my podcast pick, oh, yes.
A p a pre lemme get that right is a previous episode, uh, or two that I think
you're gonna enjoy based on today's topic.
Why not check out the "how social selling can help grow
your business" with Tim Hughes?
Tim is such a legend.
Do check that out.
And the beautiful and talented Lauren Schwartz, check out her episode
we recorded, uh, called Creative that drives the click through.
Uh, yes, you can pick up both of those, both of my podcast picks,
uh, and our entire podcast, uh, podcast archive for that.
Uh, it's all for free on our website ecommercepodcast.net.
Plus, if you sign up to our newsletter while we, while you're there, we will
send you links to our podcast picks along with the notes and links from
today's show with Marin all delivered straight to your inbox at no cost to you.
Just want to emphasize that.
Oh yeah.
Pretty amazing right?
Now.
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Okay, now let's talk about today's guest.
For the past seven years, Marin has gone from freelance contractor to
head of performance at Inspire Agency.
He leads a boutique agency working with a handful of selected clients while
providing services for paid social.
Besides the agency, he's also partnered at a few in-house brands and has helped
scaled and exit, uh, exited them.
He's also two times a speaker at Geek Out.
Uh, and also he's spoken at Affiliate World, uh, in Asia.
So check him out and if that's not enough, in the last 12 months, he has
spent over 30 million on Facebook Ads.
That in anybody's language is a shed full of money.
Oh, yes, it is.
And he's gonna be sharing some of his go-to Facebook ad strategies and
learnings, as well as some additional tips and tricks to help you do just that.
Marin, what a legend.
Thanks for being on the show.
Great to have you.
How are we doing?
Marin: Pretty good, Matt.
Thank you for having me.
Matt: Oh no.
It's great that you're here.
Whereabouts in the world are you dialing in from?
Marin: Croatia.
Matt: Croatia.
Okay.
Uh, now here's my question for you cuz it is very cold where I am today.
What's the weather like in Croatia?
Marin: Huh so it's actually like pretty similar to yours, like currently
around two, three, uh, Celsius degrees.
So like we are in the middle of the winter.
Matt: Yeah.
So really cold.
Uh, is the really cold.
Yeah, it's the bottom line.
Brilliant.
So listen, given your, um, extensive experience, your 30 million,
uh, experience in paid social advertising, I mean, there's a lot
of lessons that you can learn, right?
Uh, in that, especially on Facebook has 30 million, you should write a book, 30
millions worth of lessons on Facebook ads.
Uh, what are some of the common misconceptions then that you've
encountered about using Facebook ads for e-commerce stores?
And let's talk about those and let's talk about how we address them.
Marin: So I would say that like people treat Facebook nowadays
as it was like three years ago.
Where you could have, like when there was like not much competition, we
didn't have iOS 14.5 update problems.
So basically there was a golden age of Facebook.
You could just put a picture, find a, like a fancy product and you would earn money.
Uh, yeah.
With without any problems.
Nowadays, like things changed, you need a lot more understanding of your
messaging, a lot more understanding of your creatives, how to kind of like
pull the levers inside the ad accounts.
What moves the needle.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, but like one of the biggest mistakes is people kind of.
I mean, people that are just starting, they see kind of like,
okay, here's a traffic optimization.
Let's optimize for traffic.
But then you would get only people that would click on your ad, but
they would not end up buying.
Yeah.
So they think, okay, let's now optimize for add to cart.
That will get us cheaper add to carts.
But like interestingly, Facebook is pretty smart.
If you optimize for add to carts you will get only people
that will add to your cart.
And they would not end up buying.
Right.
So that, like, that's the biggest misconception that you, if you run any
other conversion goal except uh, sales, you would get sales, you would not.
So definitely always optimize for conversions.
Especially, I mean, in my case, in my case, 100% of my clients are E-com
stores, so their ultimate goal is sales.
Mm-hmm.
That's why we always optimize for conversions, because that's the end goal.
So that would be the lesson number one.
Lesson number two.
Uh, you need to have, like, ads are only amplifier.
They're cherry on the top.
So you need to have like product market fit.
You need to have like proven offer, proven funnel, great creative, and
then you can utilize, uh, Facebook ads.
So, as I said, they're just the amplifiers.
You have the, you have to have a proper foundation.
Before going into, into running ads.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
That's a really interesting point, isn't it?
I loved your comment about, uh, we treat Facebook like we did three
years ago, uh, and the golden age, the golden age of Facebook is, is now gone.
Do you, I mean, we're gonna talk, I, I I want to get into some of these things
that you mentioned, uh, Marin, but I'm, I just wanna sort of circle back to that.
Do you think that the golden age of Facebook has actually gone, or is it.
Is it just a little bit more buried?
Do we have to sort of mine for the gold now?
Marin: So if you asked me the same question, maybe a year ago, I would
say like, it's definitely passed, like what worked before worked before.
We are in the middle of kind of like iOS, uh, update.
We didn't know like how to optimize.
There were like not enough data from Facebook, but now I
think that things definitely improved compared to a year ago.
Facebook reintroduced the ability to see the breakdown from like
what age, from gender, what country, uh, sales are coming from.
They introduce ability to see from what period after seeing your ad or
clicking on your ad someone bought,
so basically you can understand whether your ad is driving
incremental conversions in terms of the click or in terms of the view.
Mm-hmm.
Also, Facebook introduced one of the like best feature.
Recently, like maybe six months ago, which is called Advantage Shopping
Plus, which kind of like relies on AI and more automation and that is
currently like outperforming everything in majority of my ad accounts.
Okay.
It is a bit of kind of like black box.
We don't know how it works.
We know it works like on a different algorithm compared to
regular campaign, but it works.
Matt: Ah, that's interesting because that was actually gonna be one of my
questions, not necessarily about the black box, but, um, we've had guests
on the show talking about the changes, you know, that were made in iOS 14.5
and you know, apple basically killed Facebook, didn't they, a few years ago.
Um, and we've heard people sort of talk about that and some of the things
that you can do in the meantime.
But I guess one of my questions was gonna be, um, how has Facebook responded
to those changes because, The way I've heard people talk about it in the
past, it's almost like Facebook just sort of went, oh yeah, we're dead now.
Apple's killed us.
That's it.
I will run a full page ad and hopefully that will make everything all right.
But I can't believe for one minute that's all Facebook have done.
So what sort of things have they done?
I mean, you've mentioned a few practical things there, but what is,
is there anything else that Facebook has done to sort of resurrect their
ad platform, uh, that we should be aware of that is really, you know,
taking it forward for the next year or two and we should pay attention to.
Marin: So definitely I think that like their tracking improved.
So basically a year ago compared to now, it's totally different.
We can actually see that more data is passing through to the ad account.
We can see that more sales are happening.
Yeah, I mean, like since the iOS, like the stores were not affected
so much, their revenue was affected.
But not to extend how, how less data was shown to Facebook because Facebook
did not have the ability to kind of like connect person who bought with
the ad on they, on which they clicked.
So that, that was kind of like a big mistake.
They introduced some of the steps like aggregated event measurement,
which kind of like gives you a data with a, with a bit of delay.
They launched some of the new, uh, campaign or like features like I've
mentioned with Advantage Shopping Plus.
They launched some of the new objective like website and
shop instead of just websites.
So basically you can buy, uh, right away on the platform.
Like just browsing through the Instagram, you see product, you click, you go to the
shop on Instagram and then you buy there.
You don't have to go to the to the website because it's happening on platform.
Facebook has that data and as I said, like a year ago, I was like super
pessimistic, but to be honest, now I'm kind of like, Way more optimistic because
Facebook is still the most robust system.
It's still, it still has the most data.
It's still most reliable.
People are spending still most money there.
People with the buying power that are your potential customers are
still spending most of time there.
So I think, like I, I, as I said, like I'm optimistic.
I don't think it's, it's kind of like bad as it was a year ago.
Matt: Yeah, that's quite nice to hear actually.
It's quite refreshing, you know, that actually this, this thing can improve.
Uh, it's sort of, it is nice to be slightly optimistic.
Um, and I, I'm sure that, um, I'm sure that Facebook will be
pleased that we are saying that, uh, on the e-commerce podcast.
Um, So what's your, um, what's your approach, Marin?
I mean, you've spent 30 million, uh, on Facebook ads.
Like I said, that's the shed load of cash.
Right.
Um, so you've obviously learned a few things by doing that.
So what's your approach then to creating uh, successful Facebook
ads, uh, successful Facebook ad campaign for an e-commerce store.
What, what are some of the key elements that I need to think about?
You've mentioned, um, optimization for conversion, but what, what sort of other
things should I be thinking about now?
Marin: So, as I said, like product is the most important thing.
Uh, we comes down like with where there's already proven market, uh,
product market fit, and we are just there to kind of like to scale it.
Obviously you need to have like a good offer.
So let's say if you are running like 50% sale offer, it's better
to frame it buy one, get one.
Yeah, and like in 90% of the cases it would get more sales
than when you say 50% off.
So like those are kind of like some, some psychological tricks,
marketing tricks that you need to incorporate in your advertising.
Uh, in terms of the, like Facebook, I would say that most important thing
is creative, so basically your ad whether it is a video or an image,
because nowadays interest targeting is not so important because your
creative is doing the targeting.
So let's say if you have a same image with a different messaging,
it would attract two completely different, uh, sort of people.
So basically trying to understand what's kind of like an ideal messaging that would
hit most of the people that would enable you to scale and also give, uh, like
kind of like achieve your target results.
So basically it all comes down to.
To the messaging, to your research, why people bought from you, uh, what, what was
kind of like potential issue they have.
Because you could have like maybe collagen product that helps with,
I don't know, better skin, but then you find out that like a lot more
people bought product because, uh, they had, uh, issues with their hair.
So your messaging then switches completely to the hair because what more people
are resonating with that product.
So when you find the angle that's working like that, kind
of like amplifies everything.
You incorporate it in your messaging, you incorporate that in your video, you
incorporate that in your landing page.
So basically all is focused to that.
Also it's crucial to kind of like reach people with a different level
of awareness and sophistication.
So basically if you're talking about the benefits of your product to
someone who doesn't even know it has a problem, like it wouldn't do well.
Yeah.
So basically you have different levels of sophistication and awareness.
So basically first you want to kind of like maybe, uh, get people to qualify,
let's say, do you have a problem with, uh, I don't know, bad skin?
Like if someone is like in that age group, he's gonna say, oh yeah, that's me.
I'm gonna like continue to watch the video.
So basically then you kind of like hit the pain point, you agitate
it, then you present the solution.
Then like in the later stage, someone is kind of like
familiar that he has a problem.
So you are gonna present some of the benefits that your product has.
If he doesn't buy after all, at the end, you're gonna like, maybe kind
of like, uh, show some other cases of people that try the product.
So basically showcases social proof, emphasize your offer, that it is kind of
like maybe 30 day money back guarantee.
So basically, based on the different level your people in your
funnel are, you have to approach them with a different messaging.
Matt: So the, um, well, one, thank you.
There's a lot there.
Let's, let's sort of dig into some of those.
So let me circle back to the beginning.
You talked about the product market fit.
So you, um, Facebook ads works very, very well.
If there's proven demand for an existing, you know, if you, if you know this
product's gonna sell and sell well, you can use Facebook, uh, ads to amplify that.
And you talked about, um, having, you know, the right, uh, funnel, for example.
So you've got a good product, you've got a good funnel, um, that you're sending
into, and obviously good ad creatives and those things sort of work together.
What would happen if you are, if you're just starting out or if
you've got a product which you.
You know, is, is a new product.
So you go back to the collagen example, um, I create a new
version of collagen, for example.
So I don't know necessarily about product market fit.
Um, I know that collagen kind of sells, but I don't know
specifically about this product.
Um, is I guess Facebook ads.
How do I, can I make Facebook ads work if I don't know that
there's a proven market fit?
And if so, how?
How would I go about doing that?
Marin: So I would say that like it would be very hard.
Uh, your product needs to have a unique identifier, compared to the other product.
So it needs to have, I don't know, maybe a better taste, maybe
more percentage of collagen.
Something that you can base your messaging because without that, your product is
just same as all the others on the market.
Yeah.
So basically you need to differentiate your product in some way that
is better than the competitors.
That's kind of like proven business model.
A lot of people just find the like cheap stuff on Ali Express.
They make one change that's way better than the other, and they
make a business out of that.
Mm-hmm.
So that would be a first step.
The second step is that I would go through all the kind of like reviews on collagen
of my competitors, maybe on Amazon, maybe on their website, to see what they're
talking about, like why they bought the product, why they're like satisfied.
What is their kind of like, um, What is their state, what is their situation
kind of like in which, what phase of life they are basically, that is
kind of like getting you like all the ammo for your, for your messaging.
You are realizing who your customer persona is, why they're buying.
Yeah.
And then you focus most on, on that one.
In terms of the, like Facebook setup, as I said, I would definitely
go with, uh, with conversions.
Uh, if you're selling a, a physical product, Uh, setup
would be like, pretty simple.
I would kind of like pick an angle that I think is most promising.
I would create, uh, multiple images, but with a different
maybe hook of the messaging.
So if we find out that like, here is the biggest issue, uh, for people that are
buying collagen, we are gonna message, we are gonna kind of like try to showcase
our messaging about the hair loss.
Maybe like on what, what are the pain points of like when you are,
uh, dealing with the hair loss, what are the benefits for each?
I would create like multiple version of that messaging.
And then after testing, Facebook is great because you can see which ad
got most click, which ad is kind of like, uh, getting people to buy most.
Then when you kind of like get initial data, then you double down on that and
create even more variation of something.
So basically we always have an assumption.
We just try to maximize the chances of our assumption being successful.
Matt: Yeah.
No, I like that.
So, um, so you're taking a product, you're testing and you can use Facebook to test
a hypothesis, can't you, to test this?
Like you say this assumption, will this ad conversion or this ad copy
work better than this ad copy?
Well, we can test that.
We can, we can figure out, um, what people are really after with this.
And I like the idea of, um, going through Amazon reviews and trying
to figure out, you know, what..
Marin: It's a gold mine.
Amazon reviews and subreddits, like it's a gold mine.
Matt: It's interesting, isn't it?
Cause not many people do it.
Uh, and we.
I just did a workshop actually last week with some clients, um, big
e-commerce business, you know, selling, selling a fair few products online.
Uh, and in the first workshop I'm like, well, let's just go through the Amazon
reviews and see what people are saying.
And, and it is just like, well, we never thought about this.
And it, it's a really interesting thing to do.
And we had, um, uh, Max Sinclair on the podcast from, uh, E-comtent
and he was showing, he was sort of explaining how you can use chat GPT
now to even do it all for you, right?
To go through the reviews and tell you the information, the lazy man's
version of going through Amazon reviews to get chat GPT to do it.
So, um, you talked about creative, right?
So you've got a, you've got your proven product, um, and we've tested that.
We understand that.
Um, and then you've, you've talked about creative.
One of the things that you mentioned was in your creative, you've got to
have a sort of, I think the phrase you used was a unique identifier.
Um, something that makes it stand out and is different
from everybody else out there.
Do those, when you talk about those differences, do they have to be, um,
What's the right phrase here, Marin?
Uh, do they have to be big differences or can they just be really tiny differences?
I just have to emphasize them because maybe my product is super similar and
I, but I, I can tell you that it's maybe different packaging or slightly
different flavor, but is that enough?
Marin: So it needs to either save your money, save your time, or
make, you get to the end goal, in a shorter time, let's say you have.
I don't know.
Um, let's say LED light face mask, that kind of like takes 10 minute, uh, a
day to get like treatment to your, get your, uh, face like, uh, without acne.
So one, it could be cheaper than competitors.
Two, that kind of like, saves you money, uh, saves you time.
Like, let's say competitors like Mask takes 10 minutes, but your
mask takes five minutes per routine.
Mm-hmm.
That saves you time.
Uh, the third one, it gets you kind of like, it's more effective.
So basically maybe a wave length of your, um, uh, LED lights is lot, lot, uh, wider.
So basically you penetrate the skin more powerful.
So those are like three different, uh, different.
Like features of your product that gets you edge on the market above
the, all the other competition.
Obviously you can combine all three and create a premium product.
Then it just depends like whether it's kind of like, uh, doable, but
definitely it needs to kind of like either saves you time, saves you money,
gets to the end goal quicker, or mm-hmm.
Or kind of like, I would say those three are kind of like the, the most important,
obviously just like a different packaging.
Uh, would not do the trick.
So it needs to be something tangible.
Matt: Yeah, no, fair enough.
So, um, having this unique identifier, having a USP and marketing that
aspect with those three areas that you mentioned, is, is quite
critical then for Facebook, isn't it?
It's, um, it helps you stand out.
It, I, I like to use a phrase, beige as in, I don't want to be beige.
I don't want to sort of blend in with everybody else.
So that then brings us nicely to creative.
Um, so I, I understand what my different differentiators are, right?
How I'm gonna stand out from the competition.
So how do I go about creating compelling creative, I've just heard that back in
my head, creating compelling creative.
Marin: That's, that's well said.
So basically there are multiple, uh, styles of creative that we
know are usually working the best.
So I would say that the most important one currently that is working
across majority of the ad account is UGC, user generated content.
Yeah, so like it also depends to, who do you advertise?
Like if you advertise to like, I don't know, boomers, then that
info commercial style like we see on TV is gonna work better.
But if you advertise to Gen Z, then like that TikTok style with the
fast-paced editing is gonna work better.
In terms of the style of the creative, like, I like to stick like maybe
2, 3, 4, that are main one that are uh, kind of like working the best.
Those are combined with the UGC.
So like one would be product demonstration video in which you case, like what's
your product, how does it work, like, uh, what it does, how it can help you.
The other would be like a testimonial review, which is kind of like
a genuine review of a person that already tried the product.
The third one would be potentially unboxing video that you kind of like, uh,
imagine yourself and you are unboxing the product, like how, how happy would you be
and like to, to get that genuine reaction.
One can be like emphasizing the offer if you have something,
some discount or stuff like that.
But I would say like sometimes you can combine all those three.
What is important is that you showcase that unique mechanism
somewhere in the video.
So like the most simple and one of the most effective
framework is pain agitate solution.
Mm-hmm.
So basically you get someone to qualify, you, uh, identify their pain point.
You agitate it, you compare it to all the other inferior solution.
Then you present your product with a unique mechanism.
Then you showcase the end goal, and then you showcase, I don't know,
testimonial and the call to action.
So that, that's kind of like a one simple framework.
What is also really, really important, uh, for Facebook ads is the hook of the video.
So basically those are three, uh, first three seconds of a video.
We usually, when we create one video, we create like multiple variation of a
hook because that can kind of like make or break your ad because a different
hook can kind of like, Get more people to watch the rest of your video.
So if you're amplifying the, your chances of getting more people to watch you get
more people potentially to your website.
So like that's again, uh, one thing to test that we, that we usually do.
Matt: Okay.
So, uh, let's just circle back on that a little bit.
So your first three seconds of your content count, you've gotta get in there,
hook and try different types of hooks.
So what are some examples of hooks that you guys have used or seen being
used that have worked really well.
What, when you say hook specifically, give us some examples.
I think it'd be good to sort of pitch that in our hands.
Marin: Yeah, so it would be probably better if you can guys, if you
guys can see something like that.
But like asking a question, let's say if you are selling a product,
uh, for, I don't know, supplement for football players, one, one
hook can be, are you a football player looking to get pro contract.
The second hook can be, I don't know, uh, my teammates are, uh, asking me
what secret weapon am, am I using?
The third can be, uh, I don't know.
Uh, coach, the coach is asking me what extra training I've been doing.
Mm-hmm.
So basically those are three different hooks.
So like, it can be question, it can be question, uh, on people or on
which people are gonna identify.
So like, are you a football player?
If I'm a football player, then like, okay, that's me.
I'm gonna watch the rest of the video.
Uh, it can be, um, kind of like communicating the angle.
So if someone is like looking for a pro contract that can resonate
with them, uh, one can be kind of like a pattern interrupt.
So basically instead of going, you know, like regular uh, time
timeline of the video, you can take one of the scene from the middle
of the video, which kind of like.
I don't know, person that scores a goal.
So like at at the end, like you're okay what's happening here?
It's not regular part of the video.
It can be kind of like a countdown timer.
So let's say 3, 2, 1.
So like you're watching, okay, something is happening here.
It can be something that's kind of like oddly satisfying.
That's again kind of like works because of the TikTok, which introduce that trend.
So people like patterns, people like order, so like they're watching.
Kind of like, uh, oddly satisfying shot.
It can be something gross, something completely weird.
So basically, I don't know, showcasing, uh, some, I don't know if person
has like, uh, fungus on their feet.
So basically showcasing that people are kind of, okay, what's that?
And they're kind of like, inclined to watch the rest of the video or like maybe.
Cheese or like some rotten food if you're selling some, uh, food products.
So basically you want to get their attention.
Mm-hmm.
No matter if it's not kind of like directly correlated to the video, it
needs to be correlated in some sense because potentially you're gonna address
that rotten food later in your video as a part of your marketing angle.
But those are kind of like the most important one, asking the question,
pattern interrupt, countdown timers, um, communicating the angle.
So stuff like that.
Matt: Yeah.
No, I like that.
I, that's great.
There's lots of examples there, and I love the simplicity of asking a question, an
arresting question that's sort of, yeah.
Um, because I, I tend to find, uh, Marin, I, I, how true this is, I don't
know, but I, I was always sort of led to believe that whenever you ask a
question, everybody actually answers it.
Even if it's subconsciously you're, you're sort of getting that buy-in.
So are you a footballer would be an interesting question.
Um, and different people would say yes or no, Do you know what I mean, but they,
everybody would answer that question.
Um, and so you are using hooks then in the, sort of the first three seconds.
Um, you, you've got the videos or your user generated content.
Um, when it comes to user generated content, actually there's a good question.
How do you, do you give direction?
So for example, using this idea of a hook in the first three seconds.
Is that something that you would add onto a user-generated video or is that
something that you tell the person doing the user-generated content that
you want them to add, for example?
Marin: Yeah, so basically they get a script like, uh, each, each user that
films the content, he gets a, he gets a script, like, I don't know, you get like
three hooks and the rest of the same.
So basically you're gonna film yourself how you are putting
the supplement in a shaker.
How are you shaking it?
Uh, like how are you drinking?
Like what are the benefits of using the product there?
Like maybe you tried some, some, some other products, but they did not work.
So basically they create a script.
They everything.
They film everything, uh, raw and they send us a raw file and then
we edit it, uh, in-house to kind of like get that, uh, full video.
When we get the full video, we just attach three different hooks.
So basically out of one video we have three variation.
Then we test and based on the data we see, okay, which makes sense.
Let's say, I don't know, uh, your coach is kind of like asking you if
you're getting some extra work, then we are gonna double down on that
and create more variation of that.
Maybe create a whole video based on that hook, because that's what
most people are resonating with.
Matt: Okay.
Okay.
But it's interesting that you are, um, I mean, when it comes to dealing with people
doing the user generated content video.
You are giving them scripts, um, as opposed to them just doing it however
they feel like and however they want to.
You're, you're actually giving them some guidance, right?
Marin: Yeah.
If it's kind of like, um, existing customer that we just want to film
kind of like a review, then we, then we'll have to, uh, to, to
say with their own words to feel.
So it's kind of like more genuine.
Uh, but like majority of those reviews are not kind of like
a good material for the ad.
Yeah, they're good in some parts, but you get a video of like two minutes girl
talking about the product, which is kind of like not ideal for a Facebook ad.
Yeah, that's why we want to kind of like have, uh, fast pace editing,
uh, for the product, like showcase all the important elements.
Like I said, hook, uh, agitate the problem, present
a solution, unique mechanism.
So like when you frame that video in a multiple sequences, then you
know it kind of like it's a proven framework compared to some random
girl just talking about product.
Obviously it can work.
But when we are dealing with the content creators, then we
like usually give them scripts.
They don't have to like follow it to the T, but this has to be like part
of their uh, materials they film.
Matt: So where's, um, if I, I'm just thinking people listening to the show,
they'll be like, well, this is great.
Um, user generated content is a popular thing.
I mean, full disclosure.
Um, we're using user generated content now in our own ecomm businesses.
So I, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm intrigued.
My ears are perking up.
Um, where do you go to find people that can create the UGC for you?
Where's, where's sort of two or three good places to look
in, in, from your experience?
Marin: So in majority of the cases we work with, uh, creative agencies that
already have a network of UGC creators.
So when you reach out to an agency, they have like list of, I don't know,
over 100 people that they work with.
You can see their portfolio, things they, uh, filmed.
You can kind of like pick based on, uh, age and gender.
And like some demographics from which country they are, because
accent is sometimes pretty important.
And then you check their works.
Then you select, okay, I want this, this, this person.
Then they create a script and you get kind of like the full video.
If you want to do it on your own.
You can reach people on Instagram, you can find people with just
like UGC creator, uh uh, like tag.
On Twitter, you can kind of like use some of the native platforms, uh, that people
have, like TikTok Creator Marketplace.
Mm-hmm.
And you actually also put some filters and you get list of people that are into,
uh, kind of like creating UGC concepts.
Some, like, some people are kind of like living out of that.
Uh, so like you have also some platforms where you can kind of like create a script
and get kind of like, also pick among a lot of people, like, uh, who your,
who, your content creator you want to be, let's say below or stuff like that.
You have a lot of, uh, influencers, agencies that are working with
the kind of like, People in the space that can film you content.
So basically there's a lot of opportunity to find a UGC because
it's booming at the moment.
Matt: Yeah, it's a booming industry, isn't it?
What, uh, maybe this is the wrong question, Marinna, but
what sort of budget do I need to have in my head for UGC creation?
Marin: So like, it can go, like if you're searching on your own, it
can go like just from gifting a free product up to like 5k per video.
Mm.
So there, there's definitely no kind of, uh, there's no kind
of like minimum and maximum.
It also depends whether you want, uh, content creator to post your video on
their profile, on their kind of like Instagram channel to amplify the chance
of more people seeing that, uh, video or whether you want them
just like to film and to like send the raw mm-hmm uh, files to you.
And there you, then you're gonna edit it depending on what you want.
Like we, in paid social, we majority want people to shoot the shoot
the content and send it to us.
We don't care whether they will post it or not.
We are gonna test all the content in the ads.
People that are relying on influencer, uh, strategy, they want influencer to
post to get the exposure for the brand.
So it's totally depending on your strategy.
Matt: Okay.
That's interesting, isn't it?
Um, so what does a typical company spend?
Um, I mean, I, I don't wanna spend 5,000 pounds on one specific influencer.
I don't, I don't think I do, but, um, What's, what's a typical
sort of monthly budget then?
Would I, I'm just pulling figures out the air here.
Uh, Marin, just to give some side of context, I think for people, does
a thousand dollars a month work?
Do I need $2,000 a month?
What, what do you think?
Marin: So for, for a content creator or for the influencer
campaign, uh, agent kind of?
Matt: Yeah, just for someone to create these videos that I can
use in the Facebook ad where they send me all the videos.
Marin: Yeah, so you can get like, you can, like if you're gonna do it
on your own, I think you can find like people on Instagram that go on
film, you can kind of like content for like, I don't know, 200 bucks.
Matt: Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so, so it's not actually that expensive and the
barriers to entry aren't high.
You can actually get started with it.
Um, you don't need to go and,
Marin: yeah, like you would have to like find, I don't know, 20 people.
Out of 20, 10 will respond out of 10.
Like five would not kind of like, uh, be interested out of five, that reply, like,
you are gonna be like, too expensive.
Like you are gonna end up working with one.
So it's kind of, If you want a content, it's better.
If you have a budget and you want the content, it's better go to the agency.
If not, there's some, some platforms online that you can kind of like get
video for, I don't know, 60, 70 bucks.
And it's easier because they already have a list.
You just put your brief, uh, kind of like they are handled.
They handle everything.
Yeah, because it's super time consuming to find, uh, someone and like you don't
know whether they're good in front of camera, what kind of like content it is
to deliver, like whether they're gonna like film you at different hooks or not.
So yeah, it really depends.
Matt: Yeah.
No.
Okay.
Fair enough.
Uh, it is, like you say, time consuming and complex.
So let's get back then.
So we've got our creative, we've got some good user generated
content created, right?
We've got a, a proven product and, um, we're sending them to, uh, a
specific funnel on our webpage.
So that's all optimized for the product that we're selling and related to
ithe offer that we're advertising.
And so the whole thing's complete.
Have you, um, I'm really curious because obviously you've done this a lot, right?
Have you got any sort of stories that you can share?
Um, maybe without mentioning client names, I don't wanna put you in a
tricky spot where, where things have gone well or where things have, on
the other hand have gone incredibly complicated all of a sudden.
I'm kind of curious what, what sort of story gems you have?
Marin: Yeah, so like there are definitely some kind of like best
cases when you get to the fact where like, I don't know, client is already
spending 2-3K a day and you just got there and you just simplified the
budget because you know how to optimize better, how to maximize the efficiency.
And you get them, like in, within, within a month, you get
them to over 10K a day mm-hmm.
In spend.
Then obviously if you're responsible only for the marketing, you don't know what's
happening, kind of like in the back end.
Do they have enough stock?
Uh, are their margins good enough?
Uh, like what's happening?
So basically one, one time we, we kind of like scaled one store uh, let's say
to the moon, but then, uh, then kind of like they, they kind of like, they
didn't have stock anymore, so basically we had to turn off the ads for a month.
Once we turn one bit, we kind of like turn back the ads on, like we never get
to the level before, not in terms of the spend, not in terms of the efficiency.
So that was kind of like probably one of the.
One of the biggest horror story that could be potentially like huge success
because like one, one month is kind of like, pretty much you can get like a lot
of, uh, competitors, especially if you are kind of like having a unique product.
You're first on the market.
Mm-hmm.
And then you get like a lot of copycats, uh, that are creating inferior products
that they can sell for cheaper.
So basically they, they, they take chunk of your market.
All the customers do not know that your, that their product is inferior.
Matt: Mm.
Yeah.
No fair play.
I was laughing when you talked about the, the client that, uh, had all the stock run
out, because that's been me in the past.
Um, you know, where you just don't anticipate how well a campaign is actually
gonna do, you know, and these things fly.
We, um, we did a campaign in the last few weeks that, um, I
mean it out pulled everything.
By, what was it?
480%.
I mean, it was just crazy.
The, the, the, the, the differential.
And within four weeks we'd done a year's worth of work and
you're kind like, oh my goodness.
Um, you know, that was, that was a bit crazy.
So it's nice when they come along, um, yeah, but it's, they are
difficult to plan for, aren't they?
They're, they're difficult to, cuz you just, sometimes you hit these sort of
veins and then sometimes, Everything's a bit more measured, isn't it?
And a bit more sort of normal how you'd expect it to be.
So I, I, I see that's, um, I see that's a problem.
Where do you go Marin if you, I mean you personally, where do you
go to sort of stay up to date?
Um, with all the latest trends and whatever's changing in Facebook, if
I wanted to sort of try and stay up with it and find the latest news and,
and understandings, what, what sort of places do you hang out in that
sort of feeds that information to you?
Marin: So in terms of like, uh, e-commerce and, uh, like media
buying in this like d2c, uh, space, I'm kind of like, uh, there are two
places like listening to podcasts.
Mm-hmm.
And the other is Twitter, D2C community, which is amazing.
Which is kind of like, yeah.
I think light years ahead of Facebook communities and like Linkedin.
So basically that Twitter D2C community is amazing.
You get like people that are testing lot of stuff.
You get agency owner, you have like a lot of brand owners that are sharing.
I think the, the value there is amazing.
So definitely whoever is in D2C space and has its own store and wants to
grow it, uh, or is into media buying, definitely needs to be on Twitter.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
Are there any specific hashtags that you sort of connect with?
Marin: Not really hashtags.
There are kind of like just people into space.
You, you kind of like when you start following like 10, 5, 10 of of them,
you will see a lot more that are constantly posting, providing the value.
Uh, I'm one of those, like I just started on Twitter, like so far I
was just like lurking the content until like past few months ago.
But then I started posting and.
Like, you get lot of leads there, you get lot of connections, uh, kind of like
interesting people that are doing similar, people that reach out to you for advice.
You get to reach out, uh, to other people.
You are sharing experience.
What's working for you.
Uh, so basically I cannot recommend, uh, D2C Twitter enough.
Matt: Yeah.
Yeah.
Have a look.
And you, you prefer that to LinkedIn, did you say?
Marin: Yeah.
Yeah, definitely.
I think that like LinkedIn is kind of like couple of months' behind the Twitter in
terms of like what's happening and what's kind of like trending, what's actual,
I don't know anybody from like this, like D2C that is kind of like sharing
constantly on Twitter, on LinkedIn.
They are, but I think that they, they're just kind of like
repurposing stuff from Twitter.
Yeah.
Uh, similar to kind of like IG reels, people are creating, uh,
content for TikTok, but then they just repurpose it for IG reels.
Matt: Yeah, no, fair enough.
Fair enough.
I, I like you I've just sort of recently got back into Twitter a little bit.
I think Elon Musk taking it over and sort of resurrected it in my thinking.
Yeah, definitely.
And you kind of think, oh, I must, I must look at Twitter again.
Um, so you are a, a Facebook ads agency.
Um, if somebody's listening to the show and they're looking for a Facebook
ads agency, Um, what are some of the things that they should think about?
Some of the top tips for getting the most out of your ads agency?
I mean, you've obviously worked with a lot of clients.
What, what makes a really good client from your point of view, um, that
is this gonna help people get the most out of their, their agency?
Marin: So in terms of kind of like, uh, what we look from a client, as
I mentioned, like several times, if they already have a pro market fit,
if they're spending at least 1k a day on Facebook ads, because that's
where we are the strongest we can get.
Like most data, we have experience scaling the brands.
In terms of like, if one, uh, client wants to hire a potential agency, not
necessarily ours, I would definitely kind of like, uh, ask for an agency to kind of
like show, showcase some kind of like case study of proof of competence after DIS.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, because that, that's crucial.
I would potentially ask them kind of like get connected.
We have one of those, one of their, uh, existing clients, uh, to kind of like
get, uh, testimonial or referral fee.
I would also ask like, what, what are kind of like specific deliverables
the the agency is gonna do?
Uh, are they kind of like optimize in terms of the optimization, ads creation,
uh, reports, uh, weekly calls like Slack communication, uh, stuff like that.
And basically what happens if the results are not there?
Yeah, because the last thing you want to do is kind of like commit someone to a
three month period and then like after month you see that your results are
worse than when you did that in-house.
Matt: Yeah, no, fair enough.
And I mean, I guess coming back to that point, if someone comes, you know,
if someone's gonna sign up with an agency, what's a good bedding in period?
I mean, you know, people wanna see results tomorrow.
I, I always think that's probably slightly unrealistic.
So what's a sort of a, a good, um, bedding in period that people
should, should have in mind?
Do you need, do you need to give an agency sort of three to six months?
Is it a few weeks?
Where, where, where, whereabouts on the spectrum?
Marin: So I think like after a few weeks, you can see how the performance
and the optimization is there.
If someone is like in the other account only once a week, you,
you, that's an immediate red flag.
If they're not responding to your messages, that's another red flag.
So basically, I would kind of like value, what is the communication?
Do they have a roadmap?
What they plan to do and how they plan to execute.
Maybe they have like plan, but you are not there to support their goals
because you cannot maybe provide the creatives or your product is out of
stock, or you don't have like, capacity to test, uh, some things on your, on
your landing page, on your website.
Then it's on you.
Then it's not maybe on agency because agency is not a visitor.
They can, they cannot just like, uh, do this and kind
of like fix your uh, traffic.
They can fix your traffic problem, but they potentially cannot fix
your conversion rate problem.
Yeah, uh, definitely to get some traction with the results.
As I said, like after like two, three weeks, you can see in their account
how often they're changing, how often they're testing, like maybe results are
not there, but they're trying, they're testing, they're gonna hit something soon.
Uh, in terms of actually kind of like what, how I like to do is
kind of like set up foundation.
Then we, when then we have like a good foundation and we are
having some traction, then we are gonna increase the spend.
It doesn't make sense just for increasing the spend and like, okay,
this maybe work soon, maybe not.
So it doesn't make sense.
You have to, like, your agency has to be transparent with you, how they work, what
they plan to do, and what are they gonna do when they hit the goal and what are,
what they're not going, what, what they're gonna do if the results are not there.
Matt: Yeah.
Super, super important.
And I, I, I, uh, I liked your statement.
The agencies aren't wizards.
Uh, and I can hear all the agencies around the world just going, amen.
Yeah.
Uh, as you, as you, as you mentioned, that they're not gonna fix your, Your broken
problems in your business, but they can help you get more people to your website.
Love it.
Love it, love it, love it.
Listen, Marin, as you know, this show is sponsored by, uh, e-commerce cohort,
which helps e-commerce businesses deliver wow to their customers through
things like coaching and training.
And so imagine, right?
You are in a room.
Uh, you, you've been a speaker at a keynote event, uh, and the room's
full of the cohort guys, right?
They're all guys and gals, they're all sat, they're all eager to learn from
you, and so you've just delivered, you know, your, your most practical speech
on how to do Facebook advertising.
Uh, and you, you kind of get your round of applause at the ending.
You sort of stand there and you thank, well, I'd like to thank, uh,
I'd like to take this opportunity to thank, uh, those who have
influenced my own e-commerce journey.
I'm curious to know who would you thank and why, and obviously this
can include anyone from your family, mentors, authors, software, podcasters.
The, the list is long, but who is on your list?
Marin: Yeah.
So in terms of the, like my ecom journey, there are two people that I
think I will be eternally grateful for.
One, uh, is a friend that was into Facebook ads that
got me into Facebook ads.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, on my senior year of college when I kind of like started learning with him.
So he learned me, he kind of like, Got me into this and the other
person is my partner at the agency who got me more into the E-com.
So basically I was, I was pretty good at Facebook ads, but he kind of
like led paths to kind of like e-com and the things that we mentioned.
Mm-hmm.
Those that is kind of like from the e-com side, from the kind of like
some side of a private, uh, things like definitely my family because they
supported me because I didn't know I would kind of, Do digital marketing.
Uh, I didn't know I would start my business, although I kind of
like finished computer science, which is very promising career.
Mm-hmm.
But I did not end up working a day in this industry.
So like there was no, uh, there was no like, kind of like
callbacks from their side supports.
And at the, at the moment definitely my girlfriend who is kind of like,
Uh, supportive enough, even though I sometimes have, uh, calls in, I
don't know, 6, 7, 8 pm with, uh, yeah, with, uh, with people from the US.
So definitely, definitely her.
Matt: Oh, I'm with you.
I, I mean, it's, it's interesting.
Is it, I mean, I've, I've been married this year, 25 years.
Uh, Marin a long time.
Congrats.
Uh, yeah, yeah.
No, it's awesome.
And uh, you know, it's beautiful.
My wife hasn't slapped me yet because like you, I do a lot of calls in the evening
cuz we have a lot of international clients in the States and New Zealand, Australia.
And so realistically when you're in the UK you have to, you have to do calls
late into the evening and so, yeah.
Yeah.
Um, we have.
We have specific nights where I am allowed to do calls and specific nights where I'm
not allowed to do calls in the evening.
Uh, and I stick to that religiously and my marriage has prospered as a result.
But, um, yeah, uh, you definitely don't get here without the support
of a good partner, that's for sure.
So, um, I'm, I'm with you on that.
So fantastic.
And it's great actually that the amount of people you talk to and
you're like, how did you get into this?
It's like, well, they kind of stumble into something because of a friend or a family
or something that just happened and.
And that's all part of the magic of life, isn't it?
It's all quite wonderful.
Listen, Marin, it's been an absolute treat to talking to you.
The time has disappeared.
I've got about 20 more questions to ask you, but frankly, uh,
you know, we've run out of time.
Um, so how do people reach you?
What's the best way for them to connect with you, your agency, if
that's, uh, what they wanna do?
Marin: Uh, so if you want to learn more about our agency,
go to inspirebrandsgroup.com.
Uh, there are kind of like some of the case studies, how
we work, who we worked with.
What are some of the results?
If you want to connect with me, probably the best thing is
either on LinkedIn or on Twitter.
I would say like Twitter, I'm kind of like more responsive there.
I share a lot of, lot more stuff than I share here, like on a daily basis.
Mm-hmm.
Uh, so like you don't have to necessarily connect with me.
You can learn uh, some stuff, but if you reach out to me, I'll be more glad.
Uh, more than glad to answer.
Matt: Fantastic.
Reach out.
I'm, I'm gonna connect with you on Twitter.
That's what I'm gonna do after this recording.
Uh, we'll, we'll reach out with you.
Uh, but yes, we will of course link to Marin's info in the show notes, um, which
you can get along for free, along with the transcript, at ecommercepodcast.net.
And of course, if you sign up to the newsletter, all of those links will,
uh, wing their way to your inbox.
Marin, listen.
Thank you so much for joining me, bud.
It's been a great conversation.
Uh, it, it's sort of recaptured my interest in Facebook advertising.
Facebook ads aren't dead.
Uh, and, and so, um, thanks for sharing your insight.
Uh, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
I have, I have two pages of notes for my team tomorrow, uh, where we will
get, where we'll go through all this.
Um, so I appreciate that.
Thank you for joining me.
It's been an absolute treat.
Marin: Thank you for having me.
Matt: Oh, it's been great.
So yes, there you go.
Huge thanks to Marin for joining me today.
Also, a big shout out to today's show sponsor E-commerce cohort.
Remember to check out their free online training at ecommercecycles.com.
Also be sure to follow the e-commerce podcast wherever you get your podcast
from, uh, because we have some more great conversations lined up.
And frankly, I don't want you to miss any of them.
And before I wrap up today's episode, let me just take a moment to invite you, my
dear listener, to become part of the show.
If you are an e-commerce entrepreneur or an expert and
would like to share your insights.
Your story, your journey with the e-Commerce podcast audience.
Then we would love to hear from you.
Of course.
If that's not you, but you know someone who would be, uh, a great
guest, then why not also refer them?
Just head over to our website, ecommercepodcast.net.
Follow the links on there and get in touch with us.
We would love to hear from you.
We're always, always looking for fresh perspectives and
new ideas, so don't be shy.
Whether you're starting out or whether you've got years of
experience under your belt, we'd love to have a conversation with you.
Uh, so yes, that is it.
And in case no one has told you yet, Today, dear listener, you are awesome.
Yes you are.
You are created awesome.
It's just the way, it's just a burden you have to bear it.
Marin has to bear it.
I have to bear it.
It's just the way it's gotta be.
Now, the E-Commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media.
You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app.
The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Josh Catchpole,
uh, Estella Robin and Tim Johnson.
Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson and My good self, and as I
mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript, uh, or the show notes, head on
over to the website, ecommercepodcast.net where coincidentally, you can also sign
up for the weekly newsletter and get all of this good stuff direct your inbox.
Totally for free.
So that's it from me.
That's it from Marin.
Thank you so much for joining us this week.
Have a fantastic week wherever you are.
I will see you next time.
Bye for now.