Foreign.

Hello, welcome to the Promoted podcast.

The podcast that gets you promoted and helps you be great when you get there.

I am your host, Felicity Fury and I'm joined by the incredible Renee Wootton Tomlin.

Good morning, Renee.

How are you?

Good morning, Felicity.

It's so good to be here with you.

I'm great.

I'm on Larrakea country today day.

It's very hot at the moment.

It's hot everywhere.

I went and got like, I had to establish or like pull together my bike this morning and it took me like 10 minutes to put the wheels on and I got so sweaty and disgusting within that 10 minutes and I was like bothered and hot and it just was.

Was not that enjoyable.

So I'm in the aircon right now recording with you and it's very nice.

I'm also in the air conditioning and I've been doing hot yoga recently.

Like the full on intense Bikram, like 36 degree stuff and it's kind of strange.

Walk out and then having it feel cool and then this.

Yeah.

So I feel like I've kind of the hot yoga is helping me deal with the heat because it is also very hot here on Gubby Gubby Country.

That's exactly why we are leaving today to head south to Victoria and then Tasmania where it's much cooler.

It was 12 degrees in Hobart yesterday, so that was very encouraging to see.

So we got another great listener question and I'm really keen to hear how you answer this, Renee.

Thank you again to our wonderful listeners for writing in with your beautiful questions.

Please keep them coming, coming.

What have we got today?

It is.

And I feel like I'll just also add, I love that we're kind of like live on the journey with you, Renee, because if you hadn't listened to the previous episodes, Renee's been made redundant from her role.

So you're working out what's next.

And I feel like this is almost like a bit of a time capsule.

Like we'll go like fast forward 20 years.

Oh my gosh.

Remember we did that podcast and this happened.

So it's cool to be here with you while the action is happening in your life as well, while you're looking for your next role or opportunity.

Yeah, I know.

It's actually, it's really cool to go through, to be honest.

Like, what am I feeling right now?

I am feeling a bit stressed.

I'm feeling probably a bit discombobulated just because I don't know what's next, but I'm like curating these Paths.

And I have these ideas and I'm just kind of exploring them and seeing where it lands.

So, you know, one of our episodes when I talked about getting made redundant, I've mentioned that, yes, I am looking to build my own company, and I'm doing that.

I'm very excited, excited this week because I'm meeting with a bunch of, like, corporate lawyers and, like, exploring, you know, the company structure and how to scale and how to distribute equity and all of these things I've never done.

So I'm, like, super excited to go and have these conversations.

But at the same time, I'm pitching myself to be a partner and a joint venture partner for other people's organizations.

I'm also, you know, looking at, should I just apply for another job?

And I've already got a company in mind that I would like to work for as well.

And in the meantime, I'm getting coaching, I'm working, working with some other mentors on positioning myself and marketing myself to be best kind of positioned to be able to get a job offer.

So.

And in the meantime, I actually went through a whole recruitment process.

Emma's offered a job last week.

I did actually turn it down.

And that was a really hard decision to make because it aligned with some of my values, but it didn't align with all of them.

And I hate those moments.

It's a real fork in the road moment where you go, like, is this the right move?

Like, I don't really know what I'm doing.

It's really risky to not take a job because I don't know when the next job offer is going to come.

You're really competing with all of your fears internally while you're going through this process of rediscovering who you are and where you're going next.

I'm really, really excited to be on the podcast, to be honest, to share this with you all, to look back one day, Felicity, and be like, I remember that was a very stressful time.

Well, thank you for being so open and sharing your journey.

I know it makes a difference for a lot of people, you sharing it.

So I'm loving hearing what you're thinking and it's certainly helping me.

So no doubt it's helping everyone who's tuning into the podcast as well.

No, thanks, Felicity.

Yeah, no, it's great.

I'm all for, I think, sharing the highs and the lows, right?

And, like, this can feel like a low, but at the same time, it's like, super empowering to not know what's Next.

And like to, to try and be incredibly pointed.

I think I've shared in a previous episode over the last two years that we've been recording that, you know, I've always kind of positioned myself for the next move six to nine months before I make it or I've had people approach me for jobs.

I've really had to like sit unemployed and like not know what's coming next.

So.

And not that I'm unemployed, to be honest.

Like, you know, I'm still attending industry meetings and I'm just like representing myself.

They're like, who do you work for?

I'm like, I work for myself.

I don't get paid anything, but I work for myself.

And then, yeah, I'm trying renovating as well.

I went to Melbourne Ballarat last week and helped a friend renovate a home.

So I'm like learning how to use power tools again.

Like, I'm doing so many things, everybody, and I don't know where I'm going.

We're all along for the ride, Renee.

We're all along for the ride.

Absolutely.

So today, thank you again for one of our listeners for writing in.

One of the questions was how do you jump between engineering analyst partnerships, engagement and startups?

So that's a bit of a whopper of a question.

And Felicity, I know you have moved all around in the civil engineering and construction industry.

So do you want to start with telling us your story and what kind of moved you from a corporate role into an entrepreneur and everything in between?

Yeah, I think for me it comes down to, I guess it's the true nature of engineering, which is around solving problems.

And I certainly didn't intend to be an entrepreneur or I didn't really know what that was.

And through starting Power of Engineering, the not for Profit, which speaks to high school students about engineering careers, regional and remote students, and also women.

That was really for me to solve a problem going, I didn't know what engineering was when I was growing up.

My teacher suggested it for me.

I wanted to go to visual art when I finished school and engineering was something I'd never thought about and of course I love it.

And I'm a total engineering nerd.

I'm all for it.

So that was a really eye opening moment for me and that's why I started the organization.

And then along the way I learned what a social entrepreneur is, which is a business that does social good, which I feel like every business should be that, of course.

And then I saw, oh, wow, okay, Business is a vehicle to go solve problems.

So that's led me down the path of business.

I'll kind of keep going back into business.

And I have had a journey where I've been in corporate roles and then had business on the side, been in business full time, gone back to corporate roles.

And I think there's a common.

There's definitely a common theme across a lot of that.

When I was changing in between engineering roles and for people who don't know, I was a. I worked on a construction site when I was at uni as a site engineer.

Then when I graduated graduated, I was a structural engineer.

Then I went into project management on road projects.

Then I went into project management, bikeway projects.

Then I went into the water resources sector, which was totally different again.

And then I went into infrastructure advisory and then management consulting as kind of the chunks of my career.

And that classic millennial who's had, I think, what is it, eight jobs and however many three or four careers I think I'm up to now.

But there's definitely common themes.

I think a big part of that was the more I went the path, I understood my strengths and how I could apply them in different contexts.

And the other part was when I look at the engineering piece or the technical part, there's definitely common strengths and skill sets along the way, too.

So if I go to, say, the bikeways, when I was project managing those, I actually had learned a lot about those different elements of the project.

Like, I learned about geotech, I knew about environmental stuff, water transport, concrete.

And that was sort of built up over my career.

And then when I went into water resources, I went, oh, it's a similar way of thinking and problem solving.

It's just got a different application.

So I think if I look back, there's often, say, a common process or a common theme, and then there's kind of like technical knowledge and skills that sort of layer on top of that.

And I think the exciting time, the exciting thing at the moment is the time that we're living in, because our projects, our organizations are complex and complicated and we have so much emerging tech.

So I think of a lot while.

Absolutely.

I think if you're working on, say, a rail project and you need someone who has that detail of a rail engineer or whatever the technical discipline is, that's incredibly important for that project.

But you also need people who can bring people together who have a broad skill set as well.

So I think actually now is a very exciting time to be in engineering in the STEM profession, because those skills are so transferable to projects.

And it's really helping yourself decode or understand what are those processes and skills, Processes and methodologies, Perhaps I could say that, sit behind it.

Do you agree, Renee, or are you like, she's full of bs?

I'd do something totally different.

I could be, I don't know, very different.

You know, experience in our careers, all of that incredibly relevant and important for me.

If I think about what's enabled me to jump across multiple industries and really build a diverse portfolio of experience and skills and capability.

Always been driven by my curiosity.

So I, when I was young, I was working with Qantas for about four years as an engineering intern and I applied for the Qantas graduate program.

In fact, I was told to apply.

I didn't apply because I was so in love with engineering.

I loved my job, I loved what I did.

And I had a mentor that was assigned to me while I was an intern.

Say to me, you need to get out of engineering.

And I was blown away at the time.

I was like, what do you mean?

Like, why would I get out of engineering?

And he was like, like, if you truly love engineering, you can always come back.

But if you have the opportunity now to go and diversify your experience, you need to do that.

So I'm very grateful for that manager that gave me that heads up and really pushed me to apply because it changed my life in the best way.

So I would actually say that because I started my career in Qantas, I was lucky enough to be rotated.

So I was rotated four times as an intern.

I worked in maintenance, operations and planning for 18 months.

Then I moved into fleet performance and development for 18 months.

Then I moved into flight operations for three months and then I moved into power plants for six months.

So I had all of this amazing experience from multiple perspectives in engineering before I'd even graduated.

Then when I graduated, I spent two years in the graduate program and I worked in airport services and customer experience network strategy for the Southeast Asian market.

I worked in long haul revenue management and then I also worked in group fuel and environment.

So I worked in like all of these amazing different roles that has essentially continued my curiosity and my confidence in continuing to move around.

I just worked in a strategic role, an operational role.

I was like doing fuel saving initiatives through to environmental protection Authority, you know, case studies and trials.

I was working in regional airports on rosters and systems through to, you know, power plants engineering.

I did so many different things that I, it dispelled any stress about then moving into roles where I had no experience.

Like, I had kind of built up this, like, almost expectation that I would move around, I think.

So that's why I am quite comfortable moving and almost expect myself to just keep moving and learning.

So shout out to Qantas.

Like, I genuinely probably would not have been as successful as I am today without that program and without that push from those mentors.

So, yeah, and.

And during my time as a graduate, I was also given a mentor as part of that program.

Again, Captain Lisa Jackson.

She.

Jackson.

No, I can't remember her last name right now.

But anyway, an amazing captain at Qantas.

She's now a Captain on the 787.

She's been with Qantas for probably over 30 years at this point.

One of the first women to like, be promoted and succeed in the industry.

And she was the one that kind of got me really interested and intrigued about flying and that then pushed me to go and do my flying degree.

So it's just all of these people along my path planted these seeds and I've just followed my curiosity.

If I wasn't passionate about it or interested enough, then I would say no or move on or try something different.

And some examples of that.

I had an opportunity when I was on the grad program to go back into engineering for six months and actually go and work in British Airways in London, which at the time I was like, it's a no brainer.

Like, of course I'm going to London.

Like, that would be amazing.

I want to do this.

And I actually had a mentor at the time say, no, Renee, you're not doing that because you've already done engineering.

She's like, the whole point of this graduate program was to get you out of engineering and get you working in different sectors.

She's like, you need to go and work in network strategy instead.

And I count my lucky stars, to be honest, that somebody had that foresight for me and didn't allow me to go back into engineering because the carrot of going to London was strong, it was high, it was very compromising.

But again, I had really great and sound advice to say, you need to diversify, you need to do something different.

Different.

So I would just say, genuinely, it's been the right mentors at the right time and then the right curiosity to keep saying yes to the opportunities that were presented to me.

So, and a lot of these as well.

I've curated myself as much as I was asked to apply for the Qantas graduate program and then was successful in getting on it.

You know, I've had Other opportunities come along where I had no idea if I'd have a shot at them or not.

And then, you know, even as soon as, like last week, I was offered a job, and I said no to that as well.

So there's.

There's all these moments where you have to really seek out support, advice and think about, is this the right move?

Am I actually going to be passionate about what I'm about to learn?

Do I need these skills to help me get to my ultimate goal?

You know, there's a lot of strategy that also sits behind why you would take certain jobs.

Now, when I graduated from the Qantas graduate program, there was high stakes, high competition.

There was about, I think, roughly 10 grads all looking for a job at the same time.

And there's not always 10 jobs available at the same level for all of the grads to apply to.

So the competition was strong to just get a job at that point when I graduated.

And I ended up getting a job in the Qantas loyalty business, in airline loyalty specifically.

And I was working on the frequent flyer program and forecasting seats for our, our, you know, our top frequent flyers.

And it was a very different experience off the back of, you know, working in engineering and strategy and all these other amazing places.

So I actually got into that job, and within a few months, I was.

Was bored.

I was so bored, and I was not interested at all.

And at the same time, I was having conversations about trying to get into flying, and I was also having conversations about working for a friend in a tech startup.

So maybe I'm hyperactive.

Maybe I have a bit of adhd, I don't know, bit of neurodivergence, who knows?

But I'm always keeping my tentacles out around, like, what is right, what's next?

If this is boring me, what else can I be doing?

And that's when I accepted a job in a tech startup and started my flying degree.

I married kind of the two up in terms of timeline, and no regrets in doing my flying training, but when I got into that tech startup, I loved the people I was working with, but I was kind of disinterested in the product.

I wasn't passionate about it.

And I was based in mascot, still, like, kind of near the Qantas headquarters, and I could still hear all of the flights, like, coming in and landing, and I was like, I want to be back near the planes.

I missed the planes.

So even though I've taken certain steps and, like, jumped into things, there's risk involved.

It's A bit stressful because you don't know what you don't know.

But now that I've taken those opportunities and they weren't really aligned to me, I know now that I must work in the aviation sector.

That was one thing that came out of that startup experience.

And two, I love working with startup people because they're super ambitious and they're trying to do something for the first time and that takes a special set of passion and skills to make that happen.

So that's kind of then led me into taking corporate jobs that are in the startup space like Western Sydney Airport and commercial strategy.

What I didn't know was playing, you know, like with me was that the hiring manager for the commercial strategy role was looking for engineers to take those jobs.

So shout out to do a STEM degree, like you know those skills.

And that experience is highly sought after even in commercial strategy because you have got an eye for detail, you know, overwhelmed by big problems because you learn to break them down into structured steps.

It just gives you a level of experience that's highly sought after when you're trying to build a business.

Because whether it's business or designing a road or designing an aircraft, there is a process and a methodology that has to be followed.

So in all jumping from engineering to partnerships and engagement to startups to commercial strategy, I can't say that I had a plan for any of it, but what I did do is have great support, I had curiosity and I got to know myself better with every single step that I took.

And that's kind of now refined me in a very specific box that I like to play in now, which is it has to be in the aerospace aviation sector.

It has to be in a technology innovative kind of fast moving space and business.

And it has to be with highly capable people that are pushing and growing and ambitious to make impact.

And if those three things aren't satisfied, I will not take the job.

So good.

That's awesome.

I think you learn that over time, right?

And I liked what you said around the you can try something and go back.

Like I went and tried a business, it didn't work.

I went back to engineering and it was a, I actually went for a role that I was like, what can I do?

I was like, I know transport, I know consulting, like let's do something in that space.

Because I was so burnt out from running a business business because it was really hard.

And I was like, look, I want this kind of salary.

And I actually was offered something.

Like I went and saw a recruiter I had five or six interviews, got offered four jobs.

Like, I was like, okay, cool, I can do that.

And I actually needed that year to just chill out a bit and do a job that was easy for me to do.

So I am very grateful that I've been able to always just, okay, if it doesn't work out, I can fall back on it.

And I'm really glad I tried because at the time I was 29, I just received the Boss Young Executive of the Year award and I was working in consulting.

I was working for arup, who I like just adore as a consultancy.

It was like my dream company to work for growing up as an engineer.

And I left it, which was so.

I cried so much when I was resigning.

I had great relationships there and I sat in front of each person, even the CEO and I said, I don't want to let you down.

He's like, you're just crying because you cared.

I was like, oh my God, this is so hard.

I want to personally tell him that.

Anyway, side note.

So yeah, that was really tricky to leave because it was like.

But I thought, you know what?

Yeah, if I want to come back here, I can always figure out how to come back to engineering.

And that was really helpful.

And I also like what you shared around.

You know, looking at it almost is like, what's the opportunity of the role that you're in?

And almost like weighing up the cost benefit.

And I've done that a lot throughout my career where when I was working in water resources, I had been brought in because I had the project manager management skills, but I was not a water resources engineer.

I actually hadn't done any water modeling since university and I sat with my colleagues and I remember this guy I sat next to and he was very experienced in water modeling and I thought to be as good as him, it's probably going to take me about five years to train myself.

And in five years time am I going to want to be him?

Am I going to want to be more knowledgeable about water modeling?

And I was like, do you know what?

I actually don't think that's going to help me.

And I don't think that's aligned to my skills and where I want to take my career.

So there's been a lot of times where that's been the case.

Or another example, when I was at council working on bikeway projects, there was an opportunity to work on City Cycle, which was the first bike hire scheme.

And so yeah, that's really cool.

That's a really different project.

I'd love to work on it.

And then we got seconded to a different department.

And there was a leadership opportunity when I started working on the project to take over from somebody else.

But then we changed to a different department.

That opportunity was no longer there.

So I thought, okay, this path's coming to an end.

That's where I'm going to look for a new role.

So there's also been those moments where I've sort of gone, like, played it out, like, okay, what is it?

If I stay here?

What is the next, like three to five years look like?

Is that the opportunity that I want to go down?

Okay, it's not.

Then I need to actually do something about that and change that.

So I think I haven't been.

It hasn't been like a conscious, oh, I'm going to be like super strategic and work these things out.

But actually, if I look back, I was asking myself those questions of, is this the right role?

Is it going to take me where I want to go?

And I think early on I was like, get me out of design ASAP and into leadership.

And I was very fortunate to get the project management role, which helped me do that.

But that's a question I'd be asking myself, like, even in terms of what I'm doing now in terms of my business.

So I've worked with getting kids into engineering.

We've been working through, we aspire to help people transition from technical roles into leadership roles.

And now I'm going.

There are still so many challenges in the industry.

And that's why I've just finished writing my book.

I'm in the editing process at the moment.

It's all about the future of engineering, legacy by design.

And so that's helped me go, okay, I want to solve these problems.

I want to make a difference in our industry by actually going like, I feel like, like stratospherically big is a word, but like full on.

Okay, cool.

I've been in this day to day in the industry.

This is like, if I could impact the industry, like, it's almost, I feel like my legacy.

How can I make the biggest difference with the time I got right now?

I got two young kids who I adore and want to spend as much time with them as I can.

And so writing this book and what will come off the back of that is keynotes and workshops that I can actually embed into organizations to have them think about the future of engineering and how they're designing for legacy.

That is sort of the big impact So I think even in this process now of going into this strategic view of how I'm doing things has also, you know, that process has played a part in what I'm doing now with my career.

Even though it's not a traditionally corporate role.

I suppose I'm carving that out for myself.

Amazing.

How good.

So I guess in a few words, how would you summarize, you know, jumping between different roles, like how do you, how have you done it?

I'd say kind of like that consistency is you and your strengths and, and where you want to go.

So asking yourself those questions.

And I think skills are transferable and that your strengths are transferable as well.

So I'd go from that strengths based approach and how could I apply this into a new context?

And if it was me, I'd actually spend some time, if I'm looking for a new role or looking to change into a different industry or into a different, you say methodology, say like corporate to doing your own business, actually just spending that time to just journal or think about what are those things that can transfer into that kind of, into that new context and helping, you know, helping you reassure yourself before you're going and sharing that story with others.

How about for you, Renee, what are your final thoughts?

Yeah, I think knowing yourself is going to be really important.

And I think you, when you're early on in your career, you don't know yourself well yet.

So trying new things is being young and early in your career is the best time to try new things.

So yeah, put yourself out there, take that opportunity to diversify your experience to move horizontally.

You won't always get a pay rise when you move.

Sometimes you might even have to go down and pay to try and get yourself that additional experience.

But what I can vouch for is the fact that I now genuinely understand the complexity of running business and how, you know, legal requirements, commercial requirements, financial requirements, operational considerations, safety considerations, you know, people challenges intersect and how to prioritize those things.

So you know, you don't get that experience and get that know how unless you're moving around a bit.

But at the same time it's incredibly rewarding that if you love your science or your engineering and you're really, you know, incredibly, you know, capable and oriented towards succeeding in a particular kind of niche, then, you know, kudos to you.

That's incredible that you know yourself well enough that that's what you want.

So keep pushing for that, keep, keep working towards those promotions.

But yeah, this question was really, you know, aimed at how do I move around and experience all of these different roles genuinely.

I think just keep speaking to people, keep diversifying your network.

Seek out the things that catch your attention.

Keep listening, listening.

And I'm sure an opportunity that speaks to you will make itself known.

And then it's up to you to really, you know, chase that opportunity and to let people know about it.

And just a quick heads up too, when I want to move into a new area or try something different, I'm normally literally having coffee with those people months before any change comes.

I try and do that to set myself up to really take that next opportunity.

So.

And if your current employer can't offer you that diversity, then, you know, I know it's scary, but try something new, go out there and see what it's like.

Because I've now worked for a government kind of backed corporate, I've worked for a defense backed corporate, I've worked for, you know, a normal corporate business and then I've also worked for defense kind of adjacent businesses and I've worked for corporates that are in that kind of startup, that scaling and that fully mature kind of level as well.

And it just, I don't know, I think that's the spice of life.

It shows you what, who you are, what you thrive in and what, what you want to work towards.

So enjoy the experience.

Not every experience will be positive, but that's again part of the experience generally.

And, and I don't think every job is always going to be positive either.

I think there's always negatives and positives of every job.

It's what you take from it and how you make the most of that really to help you on your next step or throughout your journey.

Yeah, that's so good, Renee.

And I just will finish with one thought which I think is important.

If you are someone from a STEM background, you're probably pro expert level at managing risk and so making these changes can come across as risky.

That certainly, you know, one of the initial thoughts I would have about some of, you know, making those changes.

And so if it's you, I think really understanding your risk profile is, is really helpful.

I feel like I'm probably on the extreme end of risk.

I don't know about you, Renee, but I'd say I feel more extreme these days.

Like maybe early in my career.

No, but definitely these days I don't really care that much about the risk.

Yeah, I definitely, I feel like maybe, I don't know if that's, you know, with with age or experience, but I would say I'm someone who's like way out there.

So if you're not someone who' out there, that is totally cool.

And I would have a look at how could you de risk it for yourself?

Quitting my dream job at ARUP to go start my own business, like so risky.

And then the business didn't work out and now I've learned from that.

What would I do differently?

So the next time I started a business, which was we aspire, I had a day job and I had the business on the side and I worked 0.9 FTE in four days so I could do my business as I as I grew it.

And then I've slowly transitioned, transitioned full time into my business over time.

And so I think if you are someone who wants to test the water and try something out, then what could you do?

And I loved your examples earlier, Renee around like volunteering, having copies with people.

I meet lots of people in our leadership programs who want to be a CEO or they want to be on boards and we say, Great, go find 10 of those people, CEOs or board directors, reach out to them and have a coffee.

And I tell you what, what like I've been so impressed firstly by the people who actually do this because not everybody does.

But the ones that do, they reach out to send 10 CEOs, they have coffee with several of them because they want to, they want to give back, they want to mentor and they want to share with people.

And then we've had people go do that and then go, whoa.

Their job is like so not what I thought it was.

I don't want to do that.

Well, isn't that great that you work that out now in your career?

Not in 10 years time, 20 years time, when you spent your whole career gearing up to be a CEO go.

And then you get there and realize it's not for you.

So I think there's a lot of things that we can all do to de risk where we're going to next.

And they are so simple.

Like you said, Renee, having those coffees, interviewing people in those roles, do you actually want to do that?

Do they have the same personality as you, the same strengths as you?

Is that going to align for you?

Do all of that research before jumping in.

And I think there are so many ways that we can do that before we actually make the commitment and apply for for the job as well.

So something else to think about as you're going through this process, whatever your risk profile is is totally cool.

Just really think about that for yourself and apply what works for you.

Thanks so much, Renee.

It's been another awesome chat.

I can't wait for the next episode.

Absolutely.

It's been so phenomenal.

Good luck everybody and reach out if you have any questions along the way.

We're here to help you get promoted and be great when you get there.

Have a great day by.

Sa.