I have a set of cards in front of me.

Now this could be fun, this could go anywhere.

So I'm gonna ask both of you a question before we get started.

what I need you to do is I'm gonna pick this card and you

have to complete the sentence.

First thing that comes to your mind.

bear in mind, this is potentially a PG program.

What people don't understand

is that I'm really smart.

Do you know what?

That is very true, and I actually didn't know that until I saw your

IQ test because I was questioning your intelligence before that.

I, right.

Matt, this is for you.

I am not really.

Small.

As soon as I read that, the first thing that came to mind was your height.

I'm sorry.

All right.

Now do I get a turn two?

Of course you do.

You wanna do it, Matt?

Okay.

I want to kind of flip through the cards to find No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

It's gotta be random.

When I'm tired,

all I want to do is sit back in front of the TV and watch Vikings of Valhalla.

And today we're joined by Boris, which is Julie's dog.

Hey, um, Julie, this is the first time that we are recording in a

person and we're at your home.

This beautifully renovated home.

By the way, mms Home still director must have been, uh, amazing, and we

are about to head into winter now.

I know personally whenever there's a change of the seasons.

I, my moods change.

Mm. Could you maybe psychologically that for us and tell us the

reasons why we find changes in our mood, uh, as the seasons change?

is probably good to make a distinction between, um, like winter blues and a thing

that we call seasonal affective disorder.

Mm-hmm.

So winter blues, we definitely notice that where, you know, your, um,

energy dips, your motivation's low.

Sometimes you can get a little bit snappy, those types of things.

Um, and there's a couple of reasons for that.

So, in winter we tend to get less, um, time outdoors.

Uh, we tend to sort of, kind of wind down if we think about.

Back when we were in caves.

Yep.

You know, we would've actually been spending quite a bit more time inside.

Yeah.

Let's just go with the whole Boris thing.

'cause he is, he's enjoying it.

He's having a great time.

Yeah.

And so you feel Yeah.

Flat and I'm motivated.

Yeah.

It's not full blown depression, but you definitely kind of feel

yourself sort of winding down.

It's actually think winter blues is a thing.

It's not

like, it's just this terminology that's being made up.

It's actually.

A proper condition.

A That's

right.

Because, because like if we think about sort of seasonally, we go through

ebbs and flows of, of how we feel and, and the activities that we take place

in at a, a clinical, uh, condition is seasonal effective disorder.

And we act, we'll definitely see, uh, for some people, if they have this

particular kind of makeup, there'll be an increase in their mental health symptoms.

So sometimes if somebody's got a, uh.

Um, a background of anxiety or depression, they might be more susceptible to that,

but definitely there's a, um, really clear research that shows the further away from

the equator where we get lots of sun.

Um, if we get less sunlight, we have people that are more susceptible to

that, um, seasonal effective disorder.

So whether we're talking winter blues on one end where we just feel

a little bit flatter right through to, um, we start to have some.

Clinically significant depressive symptoms.

Do you see a full, like, you see a pretty big spike in the amount of

people that come into your practice in the winter compared to summer?

Yeah,

most definitely.

I often say to people, um, there's two spikes.

There's pre-Christmas.

Yeah.

'cause that's lots of sort of interpersonal family type,

um, conflict where people are wanting to come in and either.

Talk about things because they've got, um, upcoming family interactions that

are gonna be challenging, uh, and winter because there's absolutely a spike

in depressive symptoms through there.

So if you look at my calendar, they're the two absolute spikes.

So it's harder to book people in over those periods of time.

So you've talked about in the past, uh, and actually touched on this with, uh,

Nick for the pushup challenge we had him on He talks about, uh, you know, some of

the things about mental fitness and what you can do to improve your mental fitness.

And, you know, he talks about connections.

He talks about physical exercise, he talks about purpose.

He talks about being outside.

These are all of the things that you've talked about mm-hmm.

In the past.

And if you think about winter, cold, rainy, it it doesn't stay as light for as

long, and we're probably cooped up inside.

More.

Yeah.

We're not able to hit some of those, um, points that are helping our men

mental fitness, does that contribute to the winter blues as well?

Yeah, most definitely.

So seasonally when we get less light, um, we also, make more

melatonin, which makes us sleepy.

And the other thing that we Is that

during when there's less light?

When there's less light, yeah.

Yep.

Uh, and the other thing that we find is that, um, our serotonin can drop.

so there's, there's absolutely physiological things that are going on,

and both of those are due to sunlight, natural light.

That's right.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

And so being aware of these things means that you can start

to have some different strategies.

So if you're a runner, for example.

And you're not super keen on running in the rain, then you wanna try and prepare

for something so you're able to, you know, keep your exercise levels up and not just

completely shut down over that period.

It's hard 'cause the.

You can't pick the weather.

Like it's, you could have four or five days of rain in a row.

Yeah.

And trying to plan if you're, yeah.

For example, it's a good, good analogy with a runner.

Like you can't pick when it's gonna work for you.

Especially, especially if you look at trades, for example.

Most trades aren't gonna get up at 4:00 AM to go for a 45 minute

run, to be on site by seven.

So the time of window that they can actually on a run is quite mm.

Condensed into the afternoon.

Yeah.

And it's dark and cold by then.

I'm, I'm trying to think about this, like from an evolutionary point of

view, because, you know, obviously this is, we're talking about our

current, you know, modern life.

Yeah.

Like, what does that look like from, uh, I guess from a, from a caveman?

The caveman, you know, they're not sitting there going, oh, well I

can't go for my run this morning because, uh, it's dark outside.

Would you think that the impacts of modern life are having a bigger effect

on it, or do you think that this would've been a thing back then as well?

yeah, it's interesting.

It would've been a thing back then as well.

'cause if you think about, um, ancient tribes, there's two strategies

that would happen during winter.

So one would be that people would migrate to a different climate.

Which we can't do.

So I can't pick up my house.

And I mean, I'd love to pick up my house and move it to Noosa every winter.

That'd be a cracker.

Should we just buy a

house in NAA and just let's do that.

Yeah.

And the other thing that would've happened is that when we think

about mammals preparing, like a bear is like an extreme example, but a

bear actually sits out the winter.

So they stop themselves up and then they go hibernate.

So that's at the extreme end, but.

In a historical perspective, we would've been in our cave a lot more.

We probably would've had stocks and storage if we were able to, or if we

were in a tribe work that could relocate, we'd just get out of the weather and.

Indigenous Australians have been doing that forever.

And I think the reason why I ask that is 'cause I guess it's for me just trying

to understand that it's not just a modern thing, that it's actually a thing

that's sort of in our make up anyway.

And you know, if melatonin and serotonin, um, is proven to drop when

there's a lack of sunlight, are there artificial ways for us to, uh, sorry,

melatonin increases in serotonin drops?

Mm-hmm.

Are there ways for us to manage those two?

Um.

Chemicals within our body.

Yeah, most definitely.

So one is, um, getting light early.

So upstairs in my room I have, um, a 10,000 luxe light

that mimics a sunrise for me.

So it comes on, um, at the moment it starts getting,

it basically mimics sunrise.

So my body or my brain thinks that I'm experiencing a sunrise.

Uh, it comes on at five at the moment, and by five 30 my.

Bedroom is like brilliantly light, and that's a really so

different to the way I've, I've just discovered sleep masks.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

So it blocks out all the light and I've, I've seen a dramatic increase

in the depth of my sleep from like, completely blocking out any light.

Yeah.

Are you tracking your sleep?

Yeah, I do actually.

A fair bit.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's one thing that I've, you know, one of my other favorite podcasts other than this

is one of course is uh, dive of A CEO and he talks about tracking sleep, tracking

sleep, and it's something that I'm.

I've got about eight months of data now, but I don't wanna look

at it until I probably about six months post first child.

I actually really wanna see the difference.

That's a

great idea because you

know what?

I'm just gonna give you some advice, and this is not what we're talking about.

The first two or three months of you having a kid, you are gonna think

that you are awesome and your kid is awesome and you're gonna be like,

oh, it's sleeping and feeding you.

Watch that shit get turned on its head like that.

Yeah, I know.

It's, um, I and I, I sleep probably seven hours a night.

I, if I don't get seven hours, I really struggle to function and

I know that it's something that's probably gonna have to change.

Yeah.

Somehow.

Julie, so this light that you've got, um, I wake up naturally at about five 30 and,

and I actually think that it's probably because I've trained myself to do it.

So get up five 30 and then I go and work out and I'm, I'm even, even on days,

like weekends when I know I can sleep in.

So like a six 30 or something, which is asleep in for me.

Um, I'm naturally waking up.

I don't feel like I need to have that, um, that light.

But could you tell us how that light affects you when you're asleep?

Mm. Like what's happening in your body?

'cause you're obviously asleep, you know the light's on.

Yep.

Something knows that Lights' on.

Body knows that Lights' on.

So it basically just mimics a sunrise.

So if you think about, going to sleep Yeah.

And if you are in a room where you have access to natural life, yeah.

As the sun rises, you are gonna wake up.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So even though your eyes are closed, you've still got, your rods and cones

in your eyes are still sensing things.

Okay.

And so, you know, if you, if you close your eyes now, like yes, it's dark, but

you're going to be vaguely aware Yeah.

That you're in a light room as opposed to a dark room.

So that, um, it'll simulate sunrise and that basically tells

me that it's time to get up.

The other thing, do you have it on

a weekend?

Yeah, I do.

Because as painful as it is.

But one of the other things that's really helpful is sticking to a regular routine.

Yeah, it is.

Yeah, it really is.

So this idea of sleeping and on the weekend.

Like, I don't wanna put shade on sleep again in the weekend

and tell people not to do it.

Absolutely not.

But if, if you are definitely struggling with, um, lower mood or flatter mood,

one of the things that you might consider is trying to stick to that.

Um, same time of getting up.

Um, absolutely trying to get, um, early light, um, so literally going

outside and getting a source of light.

So I'm doing it by, um.

Uh, what's it called?

Artificial means?

Yeah, with with the light.

Yeah.

Waking up.

Um, but that, because what that does is it helps your body produce

the correct amount of melatonin.

Mm-hmm.

So if you're getting no light, it, it just starts to flow in with

everything like you were talking about more earlier, mat like sleep.

Sleep is key, you know?

Yeah.

It's

so important.

It's, and there's lots of things that you can do to tweak that and attend to it.

So what you're saying is like, I might, I look forward to a Saturday.

Uh, 'cause generally I might sleep until six or six 30, right?

Mm. So what, what your and, but I'll wake up at 5, 5 30.

What time do you guys go

to bed as well?

Let's you give context.

So I'm usually like a late night for me would be, I'd be in bed by 10.

That's a late night, but usually like nine 30 quarter sleep by 10 30 kind of thing.

Yeah.

Sleep by 10 30.

And I'm pretty good at falling asleep and staying asleep.

You know, kids sometimes have an impact on that, but.

What you are saying is you are better off being consistent for seven days rather

than going, here's my five day routine, and then here's a two day routine.

Let's binge Yeah.

Yeah.

If, if you are, so, if you, if you're having no mental health

symptoms or signs, you, you don't have to attend to this at all.

But if you notice that that's something that you slip into a flat or lower, then

that is one of the, and if you, especially if your sleep starts to get disrupted,

one of the quickest ways to get.

Oh, on many ways.

But this a really solid, um, way to do it is to, to get up early at the same

time so that you are tired at the end of the day, so you then sleep properly.

It's such a cycle.

You know, it's funny you say that, like on the weekends, and I dunno if this is

because I'm like an active person during the day and I'm, I'm pretty structured

with what I do Monday to Friday.

I'm always busy.

I'm always achieving and doing things on the weekend.

If I say sleep till seven.

I'll wake up flat, I'll wake up tired.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

And it'll take me a long time to like kick into the day when

I'm, when I've slept, yeah.

That little bit longer or I've kind of come outta a routine.

Like, is that common?

Yeah, absolutely.

I don't have enough knowledge to explain like.

Deep dive physiology about what's going on.

But I certainly understand that, um, often when people are starting to, so

if you start to stay up later, um, and you start to sleep in, what the sleeping

in does is it minimizes the amount of that early light exposure that you need.

And it's that early light exposure that's part of.

Um, the whole entire cycle.

Okay.

So what you're saying is there's a difference between early morning

light and say midday light.

No, it's about the timing.

So if you get, if you get, um, light exposure early enough, that sets up

your, um, melatonin production correctly.

Okay.

So if you get, so if you think about like the extremist, let's say somebody, um.

Games really late into the evening.

Yeah.

So there's two.

Nothing wrong with gaming cracking thing to do.

The challenge becomes when we are getting lots of, um, stimulated,

so artificial light late.

Mm-hmm.

And we're also going later, so we sleep in so we don't get

exposed to that early sunrise.

And then that sets off a whole cascade of, difficulties with Yeah.

Um.

'cause melatonin's your sleep, um, hormone.

Okay.

Is, is that like the, um, on the iPhone?

I know you can turn the, the yellow and blue light because Nicole hates

it when I have the yellow light on.

Yeah.

But

it's like so much better for your eyes,

the best way to think about that is imagine if there was just a sunrise at,

in the middle of the night that is just gonna put you completely out of whack.

So staring at a screen without the filter on is telling your mammal brain.

Why it's get up time.

Like this is light time.

It's also the vitamin D that I think that we don't like.

I supplement with vitamin D. Yeah.

Um, I think that's something that also don't take that as

medical advice, in winter, like you're just not outside as much.

And I'm in the office a lot of the time and there's days

where it's wet, it's raining.

Like today, I don't wanna go outside and go for a walk in the

middle of the day, like it's cold.

I, I, I can do with the cold.

It's the wetness.

It sucks.

You know, one thing I'll say about that, and I know it's hard 'cause

the motivation's the harder bit, but tell me any time where you've

like, oh fuck, it's raining outside.

Oh, I put the jacket on, and you put your shoes on and you

get the dog and you go outside.

Tell me, has it ever been a time where you've got back from that walk and you've

gone, oh, I wish I hadn't have gone

zero out of 10 times.

Yeah.

Put a rain jacket

on.

So it's just, it's about, it's about getting it.

And this is, and again, I, I.

I feel like I'm in a good place now 'cause I've got a really good routine.

Like I'm sleeping well.

I'm exercising really regularly, you know, I'm having these really great

connections with my workout friends.

I'm eating well.

Um, you know, I've, I'm much, I'm showing up better to my family and

it's because I've got into that routine and there's been times where

it's been minus two in Wari the past two in a couple of weeks here and.

I've forced myself to get outta bed.

I put a beanie on, I've put skins on, I put a jumper on.

Mm-hmm.

And not one time have I ever finished that workout and go,

I wish I had to stayed in bed.

Yeah, because it just sets you up for the day.

It's so hard.

That first part though.

It is like mentally,

I just think, you know what, for me, and again, I know it's not all

about me, but I, I can just talk about my own experience, but set

yourself up so you're accountable.

And I've got people coming to my house to train.

Mm-hmm.

So I have to get up.

'cause if I don't get up, yeah.

They're gonna come into the driveway and there's not gonna be any lights

on, so they're gonna be like, oh fuck.

There's, um,

I'm not as well hard as you.

So I shift my exercise to indoors.

Yeah.

Okay.

So this, this morning happened to be yoga indoors.

Yeah.

but if it's, I'm a, I'm a fair weather person, that's akay.

Um.

I'll do, yeah.

Seasonally appropriate activity or movement.

Um, because that's what I'm good at.

What about you Matt?

I play footy, so that's a good one.

Interesting.

Uh, it's funny 'cause I had a friend the other day we were just chatting

'cause we're catching up as a group of friends and she's like, oh, it's wet.

You'll be able to come today to like, it's footy will get canceled.

I was like, no, this is like.

Part of it.

sometimes with like injuries, that's the, all the big killer when

you're trying to, and especially in winter when you get injured.

And so, oh, now what?

I can't do anything.

I'm stuck inside.

That's a really probably good thing to talk about.

I know it's not, wasn't on our agenda, but like.

We know that being physical, we know that exercise and we know that, you

know, all those things help us with our mental health and mental fitness.

There's a barrier when you're injured.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

Oh,

injuries suck.

Like how do we, you know, okay, middle of winter, you've rolled your ankle, right?

I was in a

moon bit for four weeks recently, and it sucked.

Like I can't do it.

Like you just can't do anything.

Yeah.

And I think there's a really big mental barrier to get over, like.

Even though you've just hurt your foot, there's still so many other

things that you can do That's right.

To help, you know.

Yeah.

Release those good hormones in your body, like you don't have to do

squats or deadlifts or whatever.

Yeah.

I also couldn't ride a bike.

I couldn't, I had to limit walking.

I'd literally have to be off it.

So it's like you, you do.

It was probably not the most ideal.

Injury to have.

Um, so how do we get over that?

I just, I just started playing again.

I was like, fuck it.

One of the things for, you said mental fitness, another term that we

like to use is mental flexibility.

Yeah.

Because when we've got some flexibility around things, we can problem

solve a little bit differently.

And so Matt, for example, if I was working with you, we would talk

about, well, what about boxing?

What about what, what are some other things that you can do?

Um, a classic one that people really struggle with is you've

got a really hardcore runner.

Um.

Helping them get past, like there's genuine grief, like when you've got an

injury and you can't do what you wanna do.

So first of all, it's about acknowledging that part, which is, I noticed that I'm

feeling really sad that I can't run.

Yeah.

Or I'm feeling really worried that I might never get back to it.

Like it's, if we don't kind of address some of those things,

that's really important.

But then if we can start to come in with some flexibility around

what's possible, so it might be okay for the next six weeks, I will.

Punch a bag or I will, um, not, not punch a bag.

No, no.

I wonder if

people just put it all in the two hard baskets.

Like, I just can't even bother now.

So how do I deal with that?

Yeah.

Because it's so easy to be like, and in winter, fuck, I'm taking

four weeks off, and I reckon

in winter would be, it's this extra layer of barrier that you've, it's like,

oh, like I'm just not gonna go to training tonight.

I could do stuff inside, but it's where it's cold.

I'm inside.

Why am I gonna leave?

Like, it's like it's, it's being precious and you just.

You, you have the choice.

Like it's a very, it's so easy just to jump in the car and you're there

and once you're there it's like cool.

Or it's like, nah, I'm just gonna watch tv.

Accountability partner.

Accountability partners are really good.

One

accountability partner.

I've got 40 teammates that can hold me accountable too.

So it's like, it's just, it's just the lazy, the lazy party's such an

easy thing to get in a groove of, and I feel like it's once, it's like

this ball, once it goes and it starts moving to like stop it is so hard.

So I suppose if we wound it.

We, it might be for you, Matt, that you don't find that there are particularly

detrimental effects for you if you kind of go into a bit of a slump.

Yeah, that's also a good point.

Yep.

I certainly, if I speak freely, I know for me that I've had

some really tough winters.

Yeah.

I have a really great partner and we now start these strategies really early.

So I've, I've had great winters for, I would say the last, um, five or six

years now that I actually start early.

But for me, it, it got to it.

I came to the conclusion that the, um, the negative effects were something

that I was not, it's no fun for anyone.

Yeah.

And so I wanted to start early to make changes.

And as I often say, I mean, my God, if I'm not following the advice

that I'm giving other people, like how hypocritical is that?

So you just kind of understanding your own patterns, understand some people

fly through winter zero issue at all.

But this is talking about those people who either.

Um, sub clinically or clinically experienced difficulties because it's

natural to e flow through the seasons.

It's a natural mammal thing to do.

I reckon there's a, like I'm a pretty active person, right?

Mm. You know, don't really catch me sitting on the couch much.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Um, there are times in winter and I was actually having a chat with

this about someone we both know, um, you know, she's very active as well

and really struggles to sit still.

Sometimes on the weekend, we just wish it would rain 'cause then

we can't do anything outside.

And you feel really guilty and then you kind of have this

like, you know, guilt free.

Guilt free.

There we go.

Thanks Julia.

See why you are the smartest person.

The room right now.

Like sit on the couch with a bowl of pop and watch a movie.

'cause it's pissing with rain outside the can't.

That feels good though.

And then you go get some, like Ben and Jerry's really like sugary

ice cream and you're like, ah,

I'm might as we get the pack of malt teasers too.

You just like smashing.

This is so

good.

I'm currently doing a reasonably strict diet plan at the moment, so Ben, I'm

not getting ice cream at the moment.

So don't, but

that raises something interesting.

So if.

Like understanding that rest and recuperation is a really important thing.

So if every time that you sit down, you're feeling guilty,

we need to talk about that.

We've gotta work out how, you know, I talk about your, your body as your tool.

And, and looking after that system, we need to talk about like, what's

going on there that's sitting down after a certain amount of time and

stopping and doing something you enjoy is evoking feelings of guilt.

We definitely wanna talk about that.

This is, this is a really good point because I've, I got

written here like, yeah, and I think we spoke about it before.

It's like in some other animals, they, they hibernate.

And so for them it's okay just to stop and do nothing.

Yeah.

Um, yeah.

I think there's also a society now where you have to always be doing something.

It's the next thing, it's the next activity business venture.

But it is okay to sometimes Yeah, to stop, stop, like have that movie TV series

and I'm not doing anything this weekend because we also need a chance to recover.

Yeah.

I mean, I, I went away with the family, not last weekend, on the

weekend before and Oh, it was amazing.

Where did you go?

Uh, I went down to Flinder's.

We went to the, uh, peninsula, hot Springs, went out for dinner, breakfast,

lunch, like all of it, like, um, you know, admittedly I did swing past a

project that we're doing down there.

Of course, I was in the area.

Um, but I came back from that weekend.

I'm just like, I'm happy.

It's a good thing.

I like to spend time with the family and Lucy social connections.

And with and with it.

Do you think that outside, it's also

like, I know I love going say Europe or last year in new for winter

and coming back from that heat.

Do you reckon there was something to do with the hot springs that is a bit warmer?

You're in a bit of a warm pool

maybe?

Yeah, I think it was new and I think the other, like if we look at those

other things, we talk about connection and I was there with my kids and

I could see how happy they were.

Being in the hot springs and you know, there's not often that the

four of us, soon to be five of us sit down together as a family and

we're all doing the same thing.

' cause Berg's off doing that, Darcy is off doing that.

Me and Lucy are trying to do this and I'm trying to do that.

And it's just, it was awesome.

It was, you know, it was a really nice moment just to slow

down and, and it was raining.

So, you know, if we can bring that back to what we're talking about

now and see these barriers of.

Well, we can't do these things 'cause it's raining outside or it's cold.

Mm-hmm.

I'll tell you what, it's fucking cold going from pool to pool, whether

the hot spring, but we still did.

It was, it's almost the worst, worst part.

It's nice and warm when you're like, I can't get out because

it's like that wind chill.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I, I do wanna loop it back to workplace.

So, um, have you done anything with your team to try motivate in winter?

Because it, I, I visually see not a drop off.

There's two points to your IC with team that they start to get.

Burnt out.

It's that winter time.

Yeah.

And it's that, it's almost like that November December where it's that

last crawl to the end of the year.

So yeah, we, I, I do actually, and I think we've been doing it

successfully for the past two years now.

Where in September, you know, you've broken the back of

winter, you know, um, it's.

You know, you're a ton supporter.

So your footy team's not in the grand final.

Oh,

that's,

that's like March.

So you, you can plan as much as you need to.

So, so

what we do is we, we take off that week in where the grand final, um, holiday is.

Mm-hmm.

So we shut down in company wide for a week in that September.

Does that mean no one on your sites at all?

No one's on our site, no.

Yeah.

Okay.

No one's on our site.

You know, the only person that I make available is me.

So people have got, you know, conversations.

Yeah, they, they can come through me.

So that's off the back of wind.

You know, they're starting, weather's starting to get a little

bit better and they're literally taking a week off to recharge.

I haven't done anything that is in the middle of winter though, and

I think that's probably important.

That's,

I'm doing that for the first time this year.

So we do RDUs once a month.

So I had the theory of like, well you don't need an RDO in January.

You don't need one in probably February.

'cause you've just started.

Then December, we don't need one because we've got Christmas.

So this's three that you instantly gain.

Mm. I've then gone, well, if we pull one into one of the month

in the year, I now have four.

Let's rob another month, and now I've got the five.

So we're gonna have the middle of July off.

We're just gonna have, everyone is completely shut down company wide.

Interesting.

Because you've already got the RDUs and there's three months

of the year that are just like, well, we kind of had a big break.

I'm a lot more generous than that.

I've just given my team five weeks.

So you just do a five week?

Yeah.

Did you run that by them?

Like were they, it sounds like a great idea.

We actually had a, it's a good idea.

We had a discussion and.

Sometimes the, the challenge I have is you've kind of,

change is always difficult.

Yeah.

So if you're going from say seven to three 30, pushing that for some people

is they would rather just finish at three 30 and just that's their day.

Or some are like, well I've already made the drive here, I'd, what's the

extra half hour to get that time off?

So you go seven till four?

Yeah.

Seven.

Uh, seven to 3 45.

'cause they wanted, I think that's what I actually don't know.

But I'm pretty sure that's my team too, because they also

wanted to extend their smoke.

I buy another 15, so I just gave 'em the full flexibility, like

that's on them to make, decide what times they wanna start as long as

they do their eight hours of work.

Yeah, how they function that if they wanted to do eight

to five, I couldn't care.

Yeah.

It's just how we do this is like, it's we, they're the ones on site.

Sometimes I don't even see them in the week.

Do you think there's something in that, Julie, about bringing the

decision making into that group scenario rather than you say.

This is how we're doing it, actually bringing them into

problem solving the problem.

Most definitely.

'cause if you want buy-in, um, getting others to be involved in the

decision making is really important.

I mean, obviously there are, you know, as you run a business, you've

gotta make calls and things have to happen for a certain reason.

But if there's ever any capacity to bring your team in.

To help, to help plan, to help make decisions like this.

'cause that was my question.

I was imagining like some people would just be going,

that is absolutely spectacular.

And then I was thinking other people, their RDUs every month is

when they, I don't go to the dentist or do the whatevers and Yeah.

But you are also saying you give them the flexibility to go get your

eight hours in, do it however you like, within like a reasonable,

you've gotta be fair.

Like, yeah.

It's hard like.

And my team are really good at booking the appointment time of like three 30

or four o'clock if it's for a dentist.

Like, yeah, I've had the person that's like, oh, I can only book at like 1:00

PM and I'll be done for the day or 9:00 AM or and I understand sometimes if

you need to get in, you need to get in.

Like, I, I have no problem with that.

And we, we will always be super flexible, but I did just, it wasn't pushed on

them, but I did suggest that, hey, we should think about this differently.

Um, I love it.

I think we need to think left and right here because from a selfish point

of view, like that's the time when people just start calling you sick.

'cause they just can't be bothered for a day.

So what if I gave them a whole week?

They can stop and

relax.

Um, I've actually encouraged them to go away and, and put

their actual annual lean onto it.

Um, I know that when every time that I go to Europe or a summer holiday, like that's

the time I'm going, so you've already got a week, like add on two weeks and you,

now I've got your three and you're away.

I dunno.

One of my team is in, he's in Europe for six weeks at that time of the year.

Like, go for it.

Um, I know it comes back because once they come back they're, they're

way more energized and it's just like they're, they're freshing in.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's also our brains really like something to look forward to.

So sometimes it's this idea of, you know, like if we've gotta trudge all

our way through winter, just hanging out for our Christmas holidays, it,

it's not, it's not a cool thing to do in your brain, but if we've got

something to look forward to, that's something that's a really sound thing.

So,

I don't know if you've got the answer to this, Julie, but if we're talking

about the winter blues mm-hmm.

And we are talking about your brain likes, um, mammal brain likes predictability.

You know, if we are training it to do something, if we are having a holiday to.

Samoa for 10 days in the middle of July.

Yeah.

And I'm just reminiscing at this 'cause I can't go this year

'cause I'm having another kid.

I reckon you could ask Lucy if you just popped over for a week.

Do you know what the old Hamish probably would've just booked it.

This is the new Hamish, so this is not happening.

So, um, you know, I'm the middle of winter out bang on the way for 10 days.

Mm-hmm.

And then I'm coming back and now it's shitty winter again.

You know, and I've always, I've got that sort of post-holiday slump like,

are you better off not going or you're.

No, you No.

You need to go.

Yeah, you definitely

need to go.

Okay.

Yep.

So if we look slightly differently, but if we look at, uh, burnout, one

of the ways, and you can burn out on 80 hours a week or 20 hours a week.

Yes.

Yeah.

It's not about the number of hours that you're doing, but things

like regular breaks are really, really important for getting out.

Okay.

It's that there's a couple of things.

You kind of take yourself out of your environment and sometimes.

Um, you can think more clearly.

You actually have a break from things.

Um, but yeah, regular holidays.

I probably, I can't remember if I've told this story before and I've asked

for permission to tell this, but I remember somebody that I worked

with, um, and they would come in for what I call episodes of care.

So they'd come in, you know, every couple of years we would work on the thing

that was the problem and off they'd go.

And it was this one time where just all the things that we normally did.

Just were not working for this particular person.

And then I asked them how long it was since they'd had their

last holiday, 18 months Oof.

Booked a holiday.

I haven't seen them again.

Yep.

Because over these episodes of care, we were getting better and better

at kind of mining their strengths, working out what works for them,

putting all those things in place.

And often people are just stepping back in to go, ah, yep, I just

need to, you know, grease in an oil change to get back in touch with

the things that we know that work.

But that was a really good lesson for me.

Interesting.

And for them.

So I'm always asking about holidays, what's possible.

I think holiday though.

You need to get interstate because I think it's just you.

Even though if you are like three hours away, I feel like if your team are around,

they're still like, oh, they're just, they're just there sometimes, you know?

Do you know I have to get away?

I always do overseas.

There's a part of me that agrees with that.

But then, you know, if I'm going back to that little weekend getaway

I did with loose and like, I'm still thinking about that break really fondly.

Like I left work at one o'clock on the Friday and I had like.

Two and a half days of my phone was on do not disturb.

Bang.

Yeah, no.

So committing financial situations, like, why can't you do that more often?

You know, we, we literally had the conversation while we're away.

We used to be so good at it.

Yeah.

But I think, you know, and I'm not making any excuses, we've just

bought this beautiful property and I enjoy working on that.

Yeah.

So there's.

There's all these other conflicting things that come into life where kids, yeah,

I, I, I do kids and it's a lot easier not to do that shit when you've my kids.

No, I totally, and

that's one thing, like I'm about to go through that now and there's some things

that I'm trying to put in place and ideas that I have around, I know it's

getting away from the winter blues, but trying to fix my time to some extent.

Um, I just, I just think, like I say, going into state.

He's like, we should be encouraging you to go do that, that weekend trip in Victoria

or, well, 'cause we are in Victoria like that three hour drive on the weekend,

third finish up early into Friday go.

Come back Sunday.

But I feel it's that big break, like especially in winter.

I know if you like skiing, go for it, but go get that sun.

Yeah, go north.

It just reminded me, um, I got a couple of my supervisors, um, you

know, they obviously have a little bit more responsibility on site.

There's a lot that more that falls onto their shoulders and I've noticed.

Um, particularly one of them, he's like, oh, there, you know, there's never a good

time to take a break, so I don't break it.

No, there's not.

And I'm just like, yeah, of course there's not, but what?

Just book it in and then just make it happen.

Absolutely.

Like have you got some advice around, um, good question.

Advice around how you can encourage your team to do that no matter,

like what's on it work, someone can always step in and pick up that, or

you manage the expectation with the clients, the trades, the other employees

that you're not gonna be there.

Yeah, like what's some other things that we can do to, you know, encourage our team

members to, to address their winter blues?

I think it's gonna depend a little bit on the person.

And so there, I mean, you know, sometimes you've got team members where

you have to kind of watch how much holiday time they're clocking up and,

and have a really, you know, direct and clear conversation with them in

that, um, it's not healthy for you.

So if you are, you know, if you've got 4, 5, 6 weeks and you're banking

them up, you're not gonna perform well and you actually need to encourage

that person to take time off.

We do some simple things like, um.

We don't finish our current holiday without starting to plan the next one

because while you're on the actual holiday, you remember why you do it

and all of those, oh, I can't leave 'cause it's too busy, blah blah, blah.

You're actually in the moment where you're going, oh my God,

this, this is why I do this.

So we at the very least, um, book our next one.

Or we start, we do the same.

So you said you're gonna

Vietnam, why is the next one now?

The next one After Vietnam?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So the one after that, um, we're doing.

So I'm taking off fall of January.

Yeah.

And we're doing a northern New South Wales coast camping trip.

Oh, now?

Yeah.

Awesome.

So, yeah, that's a, that's a solid one.

I

tested you there.

I love it.

Saw you right on the bus.

Hang in a minute.

Yeah.

But yeah, but they haven't had the Vietnam holiday yet.

So said that once she's already planned, while they started to plan the next good.

So we started

planning next January, after last January, where it was like, yeah.

A Sun Beach holiday with no screens and no stuff.

I mean, I've still got some work to do that I have to do.

Yeah.

So I've gotta pay people stuff.

So I don't have anything

planned.

Do you have anything?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

So, um, we're really fortunate we've got a family house in Bateman's Bay,

so we've got September booked and we've also got 10 days in, um, uh,

over Christmas up there as well.

Yeah.

Lovely mate.

So about you

mate.

Nothing.

So we gotta finish, we've gotta finish our house, which should be

around October-ish plus the baby.

So pro, like we get a holiday going to the new house.

Yeah.

Do you know what, does that make sense?

Yeah.

To make some

time

and, but I will, pending everything goes well.

We will go away somewhere warm.

Uh, between October to December, I'll just take a week.

Or I, I might even take two and work up there for a week.

Mm-hmm.

I like to get away.

I don't have a problem with that.

Just to get some warm up.

Over

months.

Really hoping this comment doesn't come across arrogant or thinking that I'm

elevated above anyone that works within my business or, or, you know, bosses or,

or business owners and, and employees.

The reality is if the business owner can take time off, the employees

can take the time that's people

have

written

to.

Absolutely.

Because, you know, believe me when I say there is an endless

path, endless list of jobs Yeah.

Make that we need to do when we're business owners.

Yeah.

And we can still take time off.

And I know for me it's really important that my team take time off so when

they come back, they are energized.

And I always say to them, family first and take holidays.

Um, I wonder if we might just leave with some.

Some strategies to try and deal with.

Oh, yep.

I thought we were gonna

do like another card or something.

Oh.

So if we, we talk about if we are kind of feeling that flat slump

or we know that that's something that happens through winter.

So we've talked about getting light early, um, keeping moving.

And it can be anything.

So you can jump up and down, do star jumps inside.

That's super fine.

We talked about sticking to routine, which is really important.

Yeah.

The other thing is to start to watch your inner talk.

So you might notice that you start to get a bit flatter, a bit more negative,

and there might be things that you can start to kind of notice with your talk.

Um, and you know, my red hot, favorite social connection, because

again, we tend to hibernate so we don't see people as much.

Also,

I don't wanna extend this too much, but social connection is not social media.

No, because I feel like that is so easy to get to sit on the couch.

I'm gonna chat to my friends through a, an app.

No.

in the reels, or at least on, on the videos is good.

You know it in not,

not in reels as in Instagram reels.

Like in real, in the real life.

I, I was like in, I'm now confused.

I-R-L-I-R-L.

Yeah.

I'm too old.

Me saying that crap.

No, you're not.

You hip.

You hip.

I think that's a really important one.

Get like getting in front of people.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so, so important that, and it does, it makes it, it is.

It does it.

That, that social connection on a weekend breaking away from work, the

standard family life and just being like, how's everyone else doing?

Um, it does make a huge difference

because that thing with footy that you were talking about Matt before, you know

I'm sitting there and we were just having a chuckle 'cause it's outside, it's with

other people and it's moving around.

So you are.

What that might look like in somebody else's life.

Oh, I'm 35, 36 next week.

I don't know why I still do it, but there's, the reason why is, yeah, it's

our training on a Wednesday, which is today, and we go and, um, have dinner and

sit around together, just have a chat.

And, and it's really funny that the conversations change from, like,

training used to be like, ugh, that they, everyone looks forward more to

training than the games because it's the social connection sitting around.

And even as we get older, we've talked about.

Already, the group of us are quite tight.

We've played together for a long time.

It's like, keep, um, keep, uh, let's keep training in the future.

So, um,

I've just written down here, um, alcohol.

Mm-hmm.

Um, in your experience, do you see that that becomes a comfort during winter?

I know when summer comes around, you're outside barbecues, beard and all that

kind of stuff, but you can also see.

I guess people are less motivated.

Their moods are down and they're, oh, well, I'll have a beer.

I'll have a glass of wine, or whatever.

Do you see like a spike in that and.

Yeah, that can definitely be a factor.

'cause if you think, again, coming back to that manal

brain, that's not feeling great.

Mm-hmm.

So if you're feeling flat, your brain is like always coming up with scenarios.

Yeah.

And solutions.

And a solution is, 'cause booze is, um, euphoric.

It gives you really quick access to, um, carbohydrates.

So it's energy immediately.

Hmm.

So your brain's not stupid.

It just goes, oh, I don't feel good.

What can I do?

Yeah.

I've never thought about

alcohol as like a source of carbohydrate.

It's got a high, high, I know it does, but I energy,

should I say energy?

I mean, can't that, because

if you think about physiologically, your body like needs

carbohydrates to do whatever,

that's what s Yeah.

Interesting.

Um, and again, so it's, it, it is thinking about what shifts or

changes in that, in that flatter lower period and what are some things

that you might wanna look out for,

you know?

And I can attest that if you're moving more, you're drinking less.

Yeah.

Let's leave that there.

Yeah.

Thanks Julie.