Evan Intro: Hello and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host Evan,

Evan Intro: back again with another film discussion from the left.

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Evan Intro: You can also support the show at patreon.com slash leftoftheprojectorpod.

Evan Intro: This week we dive into, not a movie, but television. My friend Nick from The

Evan Intro: Intervention Podcast joins me for another Lord of the Rings content episode.

Evan Intro: His last time on was for the Hobbit trilogy.

Evan Intro: This time we are discussing episodes one through three of the second season

Evan Intro: of The Rings of Power, which you can watch on Amazon or perhaps in other ways. Wink, wink.

Evan Intro: So we decided to dive into the season two, talk about a couple episodes.

Evan Intro: We'll probably do another episode recapping and discussing episodes four through

Evan Intro: seven, and then probably one final episode discussing the finale.

Evan Intro: So for anyone who doesn't know, this is the second season of this Amazon show,

Evan Intro: bringing us back to the second age of Middle Earth.

Evan Intro: So I hope you enjoy this deviation from the norm where we talk about TV with Nick.

Evan Intro: Sit back in your seats, get something to eat, watch this movie,

Evan Intro: don't look the kid you see.

Evan: Thank you.

Evan: All right, well, this week on the show, we're doing something a little bit different.

Evan: We are going to talk about a TV show for only the second time ever.

Evan: And back on the show for more Lord of the Rings content, I have Nick from Intervention

Evan: Podcast. Thanks for coming on, Nick.

Nick: Yeah, pulling me out of retirement to talk about the Lord of the Rings.

Nick: No, I'm just joking. I don't think I'm retired from the podcast yet,

Nick: but we haven't recorded in a while. So hope y'all are doing well.

Evan: Well, that's okay. I mean, the last time I think, I don't even remember the

Evan: last time we had recorded, but we had, you can go back and listen to three episodes

Evan: on Lord of the Rings, which Nick was not on, but we did talk about the lesser trilogy, The Hobbit.

Evan: But you mentioned, you asked me if I'd seen the new season yet,

Evan: because it was just dropping.

Evan: And I thought, well, you know, maybe we should come on and give our gripes about

Evan: the Lord Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power, which is in its second season,

Evan: just came out last week on the Jeff Bezos platform.

Evan: But what did you think, I guess before we talk about season two,

Evan: what did you think about the first season?

Evan: I guess generally, I mean, you can also mention the things, the issues you have

Evan: with it, but like as a show, like, I mean, what do you think?

Nick: Yeah, I mean, generally positive, I guess is the way. And I really,

Nick: I think I had to get myself in the frame of mind to view it that way.

Nick: Cause like, as you know, I'm like a lore freak. Like it's the probably the nerdiest part about me.

Nick: Um said I love Lord of the Rings and I've read like the Silmarillion a bunch

Nick: of times I think I probably said that on the Hobbit episode,

Nick: So I think once I was able to kind of dissociate that part of my personality

Nick: and just sit down and just actually try to enjoy the show for what it was like,

Nick: there's still cringy shit about it and problems that I have with it.

Nick: But like, it's generally enjoyable.

Nick: You know what I mean? And so I think I'm enjoying this season a little bit more

Nick: because I'm coming in with that same kind of mindset of like,

Nick: I'm not expecting too, too much in terms of adherence to the lore.

Nick: And I get there needs to be changes for TV to make it actually viewable and

Nick: stuff, but I'm not letting those

Nick: things really agitate me unless they're particularly egregious, I think.

Evan: Yeah. I mean, I think for anyone, even whether you're just a Lord of the Rings

Evan: novice, you just like TV show, you like fantasy, it has something to be said

Evan: about the production value.

Evan: I mean, they spent, I think, something like $60 million per episode on the first

Evan: season. I don't even know how much the second season, but a lot of money.

Evan: A lot of money went into this. And you you can see that because it looks pretty

Evan: good as far as just a visual show.

Evan: And it's funny, I felt the same way when I watched the first season,

Evan: the first couple episodes, I'm like, I don't know, this is kind of weird.

Evan: And then I just thought, you know what, if I just can enjoy this as a fantasy

Evan: TV show that happens to include like really cool characters from the Tolkien

Evan: universe, I guess, can that just be good enough for me? And I think so, right?

Nick: Yeah. I mean, I think that's the best way to do it. Don't get too bogged down in it.

Nick: I mean, And you can if you want, but I've just made that decision to try to

Nick: enjoy it and like actually carve out like a little bit of space and like,

Nick: especially with all the shit going on right now, like,

Nick: you know, and I don't want to get into that too much, but like,

Nick: you know, I just want to have one little space, you know, uh,

Nick: just chill i guess.

Evan: Yeah well i mean that's the thing well i mean it does seem like we're

Evan: entering like a new era of lord of the rings content

Evan: we have this tv show there's going to be a new animated movie the end of this

Evan: year and then another movie i think in 2026 the new hobbit not a hobbit the

Evan: new um gollum movie which i don't know i mean i'm i'm glad that that's that

Evan: i'm more excited for because peter jackson's involved in it whereas this is

Evan: just kind of like a separate thing but But yeah,

Evan: I mean, for anyone who hasn't watched this first season,

Evan: there will be, you know, things we'll talk about in season two,

Evan: episodes one through three, which have aired as I'm airing this.

Evan: I'll be releasing this pretty soon after this. So I don't think the fourth episode will come out yet.

Evan: But in the first season, again, if you don't know the, you know,

Evan: it's essentially taking you back to the beginning of the second age.

Evan: We have the defeat of Morgoth. And then we kind of, you know,

Evan: see kind of how things go from there.

Evan: We get a few different perspectives we have uh numenor we

Evan: have the elves we have the what

Evan: we learned at the end of season one is gandalf you know coming back but you

Evan: know unaware of who he is and all these different the hobbits who are called

Evan: what do they call them in this the the harfoots the harfoots yeah sorry yeah

Evan: i'm gonna have to defer to you on more of the uh very specifics because i'm

Evan: gonna i thought i was gonna.

Nick: Blink because that's like a show thing it sounds Sounds like it's like a Hobbit

Nick: family name or something, but maybe that's their clan. I'm not sure.

Evan: Right. Yeah. That's actually, yeah. We'll try not to get bogged down too much,

Evan: but you feel free to interject any, uh, bit of failures on there on the lore of this show,

Evan: because I've only read the similar really in part of the way through,

Evan: as I'll admit here, I've, I need to, uh, complete that, that journey as I'll

Evan: bring the act actually energy.

Nick: Is that what you want?

Evan: Yes. You need to, uh, Tolkien, Tolkien's way in everyone.

Nick: Yeah.

Evan: But yeah, so you have all that, you have the elves, and you have,

Evan: I mean, really, you have all the different clans and all the different groups.

Evan: And the first season is, you know, it's pretty good. It's pretty fun.

Evan: It kind of culminates with learning that Sauron is taking, you know,

Evan: a human form, and he's tricked people into creating several rings for the elves.

Evan: Elves and that was actually one of the things that i found as a you know one

Evan: of the many things that are kind of out of order is as far as as far as i know

Evan: you can correct me if i'm wrong the elves did not get the rings first wasn't it the humans yeah.

Nick: Um i don't know now that i'm thinking about it because the show's actually kind

Nick: of confusing me um i just think in general and just to kind of i guess deflect

Nick: and obfuscate because i don't actually know a little bit um the whole timeline

Nick: line is kind of compressed right like,

Nick: At the time of the Forging of the Rings, like, the characters,

Nick: like, especially, like, the human characters, like, Isildur and even his father,

Nick: Elendil, like, are not even going to be born for, like, a few hundred more years,

Nick: you know, like, when this all kind of starts out.

Nick: But, like, I get it, right? So, they have to compress things.

Nick: They have to make it make sense. And, you know, for what it is, I think it's fine.

Evan: Yeah, that's one of the, I was going to mention that too. So they have the,

Evan: you know, Isildur coming from Numenor.

Evan: And this is, you know, as far as I understand, as you said, I think I had it

Evan: pulled up the timeline of when they were born, but now I don't have that tab open.

Evan: But like you said, it's a couple hundred years later, but assuming they want

Evan: to probably do a large portion of the whole second age in, well,

Evan: I don't know, four seasons.

Evan: I don't know how many seasons they'll get of this. They probably want to get

Evan: all the way to where, you know, the beginning of the Lord of the Rings story

Evan: takes you where Isildur is going to kill Sauron.

Evan: So they have to get there eventually. And so they have to be together at, you know, on this show.

Evan: You know, again, I don't blame them for that. This is, you know,

Evan: the one thing I will say about this show, unlike our last discussion on The

Evan: Hobbit, they didn't interject a bunch of, you know, annoying love triangles

Evan: like they did in other ones.

Evan: There is a little bit of romance-y stuff, but not as much as the other ones. I don't know.

Nick: Yeah, no, I agree with that. I mean, there still is that there.

Nick: And I guess we'll see where, like, with the last episode with the Isildur thing.

Nick: But, like, that character seems kind of cool, you know? Not that, like, what was her name?

Nick: Tariel wasn't, like, a cool character, but it was just, like,

Nick: so contrived, you know? That is something I think that,

Nick: irks me because in the same way i think that in the hobbit they were trying to use that uh,

Nick: tariel character and her relationship with is it

Nick: keely yeah like they call back to like the

Nick: aragorn arwen kind of thing you know but it

Nick: was more of in like a hokey kind of way like i feel like they do

Nick: so much of this little like even if it's not

Nick: like a big big plot line like that or side

Nick: arc whatever you want to call it just like little moments that

Nick: like they're like you know we're doing right we're still in the lord of the rings

Nick: you remember when we kind of said something similar in you know

Nick: the original trilogy you know and like it's just

Nick: it's not even line for line sometimes but like even when like an episode one

Nick: gladio goes like and she's referring to sauron and she says he's no man right

Nick: and i know it's like a completely different context but like it's still kind

Nick: of that cringy callback and it's like you don't need to do it so much yeah.

Evan: We don't actually wonder i actually don't know the answer to this do they have

Evan: that do they have um because Because I know there's different rights involved

Evan: in what, you know, the Tolkien estate has let people use.

Evan: I wonder if it's they couldn't use lines directly.

Evan: So that's why they're doing it this way. Or maybe they're doing,

Evan: as you said, like a callback to fans of the movies.

Evan: And I think it's directly for people who like the movies, but maybe aren't necessarily

Evan: huge fans of Lord of the Rings in the same way.

Evan: Maybe you are, you know, so it's this is, oh, I saw the movie back, you know, 15 years ago.

Evan: Now I'm going to hear a little nod to it. Like, I just saw the recent Alien

Evan: movie and they did the same thing where they.

Evan: Took lines from the original Alien to the ninth installment.

Evan: And like, yeah, it's cool for a nod, but you know what? Just make your own new shit.

Nick: You know? Yeah. It's a cool setting. It's a cool universe.

Nick: I think one thing they've done

Nick: well is like largely I think the characters and the acting is very good.

Evan: It is. I will say that. Yeah. And that's weird talking, I think,

Evan: before I started recording or maybe not, is that there aren't a lot of big name

Evan: actors that I've seen in other things.

Evan: And maybe you said it was actually kind of good. And actually reminds me a little

Evan: bit of, well, for anyone.

Evan: So i've mentioned to you that a lot of the production

Evan: value is very reminiscent of game of thrones obviously it's not the same kind

Evan: of universe at all but it seems like they're kind of using that as maybe their

Evan: model of you know this big fantasy show that's expansive and all this and there

Evan: were some big name actors i guess so i like that they went with the small people

Evan: you know give people a chance.

Nick: Oh definitely and they've all been pretty good like even like

Nick: for the way that i may have a problem with

Nick: like some of the characters like i one thing i still can't get

Nick: over is like galadriel's like perceived age

Nick: and maturity in this and i i guess

Nick: again it's one of these things i'm coming to accept and just try to to

Nick: roll with but it still bothers me because like she's older

Nick: than like gil gil gil gallad and elrond by

Nick: like a lot um in in

Nick: the actual canon and she's already like one of the wisest people in the world

Nick: at this point but like i get it because like they do kind of show in the lord

Nick: of the rings that she's kind of drawn by this power it could be tempted so i

Nick: guess if i'm being fair like it is an interesting way to kind of show that aspect

Nick: of her personality and make her an interesting character well.

Evan: They somehow you somehow almost have to pretend that the lord of the rings doesn't

Evan: exist in some sense like we're,

Evan: imagining like this that this had come out before those like you're learning

Evan: about all these things you know it would have maybe influenced how the lord

Evan: of the rings was made or how peter jackson And then in reverse,

Evan: you're kind of stuck with, we already know what Tolkien wrote in his books and what's in the movies.

Evan: They're just not going to give you exactly that because...

Nick: Oh, go ahead, sorry.

Evan: No, that's it, yeah, yeah.

Nick: Yeah, no, and to your point that, like, a lot of this is probably written for movie watchers.

Nick: I mean, both, but, like, definitely appealing to that.

Nick: So that's, I don't know, that seems to be, and even reading some things that,

Nick: what's the actress that plays Galadriel's name? Morfydd? Morfydd Clark?

Evan: Morfydd Clark, yeah.

Nick: Yeah. It seemed like when she was referencing some of, like,

Nick: the character beats that she was referring to the movies. movies and again some

Nick: of that stuff with Galadriel actually.

Evan: Matched up pretty.

Nick: Closely but maybe they are you know operating under that assumption that like

Nick: most people are going to interpret this in the same canon as the movies you know.

Evan: Yeah I guess it's kind of hard to uh to I will say like I think she plays Galadriel

Evan: really well whether or not you like you know maybe what they've done with the

Evan: character I think it's pretty good I think I think you mentioned to me too that

Evan: in we learn We have the guy, Charlie Vickers plays the Sauron character.

Evan: He doesn't have the same name throughout the first season. We learn at the end who he is.

Evan: We learn that he's been deceiving Galadriel and the elves and everyone this

Evan: whole time to get them to do what they say in Lord of the Rings,

Evan: which is to make all the various rings.

Evan: The ring is in the title.

Evan: It's called the Rings of Power, everyone. So it's going to be about rings.

Evan: But yeah, so he's really good, I think. His character is really good.

Evan: The actor, I mean, Charlie Vickers is good.

Evan: And I think that they did a good job with his arc.

Evan: And I know we're not exactly talking about season two, but we kind of where

Evan: we leave off at the end of the first season is they've made the rings for the elves, the three rings.

Evan: And we learn who Thauron is, and we know who Gandalf is, but we don't know how

Evan: they're all going to kind of come together.

Evan: Other and then the opening of this of the second season is you know what to

Evan: do with these rings should the elves use them to save their you know essentially

Evan: their live or their livelihood on in middle earth so i think it's kind of cool

Evan: you know i don't i don't want to you know

Evan: someone out there way you know you may or anyone may think it's a little bit

Evan: hokey but i think it works i don't know.

Nick: I know i i agree that it works i mean i

Nick: think they kind of show that like these rings were

Nick: crafted under the influence of sauron so

Nick: like there's reason and i think mostly by like elrond to

Nick: show some skepticism towards that and like

Nick: skepticism towards like the power that they grant right

Nick: and which is you know that's the theme of the whole thing so i'm really

Nick: cool with that um but and i

Nick: think also in this episode like it opens with the

Nick: this this opens with like the killing of the original quote-unquote

Nick: saron right by that yeah that was pretty cool yeah yeah

Nick: and like just to your point like i don't even

Nick: really have a problem with them doing the whole how brand thing um just

Nick: because i think that opening scene and just

Nick: the characterization throughout the whole and like the changes that we see

Nick: with him even in the first three episodes of this show like one of saran's like

Nick: really cool like in notable powers that like he's like a shapeshifter and he

Nick: can assume all these different shapes and like so he has that power and until

Nick: like he forges the ring and gets kind of defeated like he does you know he has

Nick: that power which he doesn't have it after that but um yeah.

Evan: And yeah and well i thought yeah the first the opening of the first episode

Evan: which you talked about and then i thought the episode the the uh,

Evan: the oh gosh what was i going to mention um no yeah maybe that's just the first episode yeah,

Evan: right the first episode is kind of giving you uh how did

Evan: he be how did he become connected with galadriel to

Evan: begin with how did they put them like on the path together and not

Evan: only does it have his shape-shifting power it shows kind of his ability for

Evan: manipulation of people right like especially so in

Evan: the first uh whole season he's manipulating galadriel into

Evan: kind of basically doing whatever he wants and now she

Evan: realizes you know in the second and third

Evan: episodes well maybe i can't go see him again

Evan: because he can do the same thing again and

Evan: so she tries to get uh what is it um what's his name uh elrond to come with

Evan: him the second time when they go to see him but then the other thing i was going

Evan: to mention is that he then changes form again where he's now you know working

Evan: to get more rings made and he's you know getting uh calibrindor is that his name calibrindor.

Evan: To convince he's the master ringmaker and he's now inserted himself much further

Evan: and you now can see he's crafting these rings to not just to help them but essentially

Evan: to destroy everyone because we know what happens in the future is that these rings do not,

Evan: they don't bode well for anyone living in any of these lands Khazad-dun is basically

Evan: destroyed because of their probably,

Evan: how does it go in the the you know in the lore of how does uh it become destroyed

Evan: or how do they kind of what's the downfall there do you know.

Nick: Yeah i mean so the downfall is really when they um

Nick: encountered the balrog right who was buried under there

Nick: um and it's implied that like they just kept like going after all the reaches

Nick: right like they dug too greedily and they dug too deep right like the line from

Nick: saruman um right so i think the connection and i'm speculating at this point

Nick: but we see in episode three that they begin the forging of the rings,

Nick: of the dwarven rings, right? And like,

Nick: speculate because it said that the dwarven rings basically like

Nick: they had the ability to breed great hordes of wealth

Nick: but like it also so sauron couldn't really influence

Nick: the dwarves all that much it was just like kind of i think exacerbated some

Nick: of their worst tendencies like their stubbornness and their greed so my thinking

Nick: is is that the ring he's gonna get is gonna drive them to continue to look for

Nick: more mithril and then they're gonna encounter the balrog and i think

Nick: it's in the trailer right that we see the balrog at some point but i think that's

Nick: the connection that we're gonna say well.

Evan: I don't know actually i wonder if because they made a very clear point of showing

Evan: sauron or i guess his name now is anatar his you.

Nick: Know he's now.

Evan: Kind of this uh kind of to trick calibram more he takes the mithril from the.

Nick: Dwarves and.

Evan: Puts it in so i assume that he's putting some kind of something.

Nick: To increase.

Evan: Like so i think what you did you You basically just said like it's to increase

Evan: their, you know, their greed towards Mithril and thinking like,

Evan: oh, if we get more Mithril, maybe they'll make us more rings.

Evan: And it's kind of like this and never ending that he just created capitalism

Evan: for the dwarves, basically.

Nick: Yeah, I mean, they were just doing mercantilism prior to. But no.

Nick: So, yeah, they did make like a really explicit point to show him like dropping

Nick: that in like that. He touched it. Right.

Nick: And I think that's a difference between Mithril.

Nick: Elven rings because i don't know if you ever touched it i'd have to go

Nick: back and re-watch it you know what i mean so like that's showing explicitly

Nick: like his influence is going into these what i was saying is that like in the

Nick: same way like his his hand is going to be in with the men right and the men

Nick: turn into the ring rates that they ultimately give the rings to the dwarves

Nick: don't necessarily they're not like that corruptible by them but like his influence

Nick: is still there obviously yeah.

Evan: It's i mean it's very explicit in the movies and in the books that the The men

Evan: are the ones that are very corruptible.

Evan: But I thought another thing that I, like I, a couple of the notes that I wrote

Evan: down was, you know, at one point when they're kind of deciding whether,

Evan: when Elrond is like kind of taking the rings and he's kind of gone and hiding.

Evan: I think that's in the second episode.

Evan: They, you know, he doesn't, he goes to one of his sort of mentors or one of

Evan: the eldest elves, Sidran or Sirden, Sirden? Sirden?

Nick: Círdan, yeah.

Evan: Yeah, Kyrden, who's, you know, one of the eldest, eldest elves,

Evan: and he's, you know, basically convinces him that he should, you know,

Evan: that it's worthy, you know, after first deciding, well, maybe it's not a good idea.

Evan: Things like, okay, well, maybe if they're in the hands of people who are good

Evan: hearted, you know, the elves are have, you know, good intentions in mind,

Evan: they can handle the power of the rings.

Evan: But if they're in the hand of Sauron, he would do bad things.

Evan: The first thing I could think of is, back when I discussed the first original

Evan: trilogy, is kind of how that sounds like a very liberal take on it.

Evan: Like, oh, we can hold fascism away by doing our way of things. And I don't know.

Nick: It's the social democracy path forward.

Evan: Yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. That's basically what we kind of came to in the first ones.

Evan: Hungry Rye and I had done the first ones. And yeah, I don't know.

Evan: Maybe it's just I can't get that you out of my head.

Evan: Probably the average person watching this wouldn't think that.

Evan: They'd be like, oh, the elves are just good people.

Evan: They're very old and they're wise. I mean, I guess those things are true.

Evan: But we can see they are corruptible because Celebrinborn is already now corrupted by Sauron.

Evan: You know, he's lying to his king and doing all these things that he wouldn't normally do.

Evan: And he's like, are you sure you want to do that? And he's like,

Evan: yes, yes. We need to, I have this power.

Evan: I want to use it. And it's very clear that shit's all going to go bad, as we all know.

Nick: No, yeah. And like one thing I think I do appreciate is

Nick: the kind of shades of gray that they introduce into

Nick: like the different characters and even like the different races

Nick: you know at some level i think tolkien kind of

Nick: unfairly often gets the criticism that you know everything is kind of binary

Nick: good and bad when that was never true you know what i mean like there was you

Nick: know there was corruptible elves always and like even mentions and i think this

Nick: actually gets characterized pretty well that like zaron has kind of like a struggle

Nick: especially after the fall of morgoth where he was like,

Nick: repenting like and actually doing good and i think we kind of see that and especially season

Nick: one i think we're seeing him completely you know eliminate

Nick: any graspings towards that at this point

Nick: he's just full mask off yeah yeah but even like the orcs are kind of interesting

Nick: to me and that it seems like they're trying to make them at least like somewhat

Nick: sympathetic i don't and humanize them i guess a little bit like we see orc families

Nick: and like they're just to believe that like they're just trying to create some

Nick: kind of like safe space for themselves i.

Evan: I think in the third episode, at one point, they asked, like,

Evan: oh, you know, do we, I think they asked Adar, like, oh, why do we have to go to war again?

Evan: Why can't we just, we have this base now, we want a war, we have some land, why can't we just live?

Evan: And he's, oh, we have to, you know, defeat the evil of Sauron because,

Evan: I mean, he doesn't really know that Sauron exists anymore, but maybe he,

Evan: you know, it's like this never-ending war.

Evan: He's got to just do some Middle-earth imperialism because, you know, that's what he does.

Evan: But the orcs do seem to want to just live their lives.

Evan: I mean, they're not, and so here's the thing. Here's a question.

Evan: I saw something or someone say that it's not obvious from this show that Sauron

Evan: actually wanted to maybe, when he's killed and his body is, you know,

Evan: his old body is destroyed.

Evan: He actually did want to like destroy and take over the call of Middle-earth.

Evan: Like, was that his plan, do you think, at that time?

Evan: Or is it more of just, I want to just be this, you know, lord? I don't know.

Nick: Know yeah so i mean that would have been like i think the

Nick: time like that i was just mentioning where like sauron is considering

Nick: like basically okay got it amends with the gods

Nick: and everything but i guess like how it's ultimately like

Nick: one he's too ashamed to do that right two he's too drawn by the power and like

Nick: they frame his power and i think this is always something interesting to talk

Nick: about especially with respect to capitalism because that's another conclusion

Nick: that i've come to like whether you know tolkien knew it or not like he was critiquing

Nick: industrial capitalism in some way,

Nick: especially with the environmental lens. Anyway, I don't want to get too far afield.

Nick: But like Sauron's kind of ultimate downfall in terms of what he wanted to see

Nick: was like he wanted to spring like order and structure to the world,

Nick: but he believed that he was like the only one that would be able to do it.

Nick: Like nobody in the world, not the elves, not the dwarves, like maybe he could

Nick: work more with the elves, but certainly not the men had the capability to actually

Nick: make a structured, ordered, you know, quote-unquote perfect world.

Evan: It would have been really sucky if he had said, well, isn't Donald Trump's like

Evan: the, I don't know, from his first where he goes, like, I alone can fix it.

Evan: Like, that's Sauron, right? He's like, I alone can fix everything.

Evan: You know, basically, my version of fascism would be good and great because,

Evan: you know, I would be in charge and I could control everything.

Evan: But no, but I think your comment about the Tolkien and the critiquing of industrial capitalism,

Evan: I know that's not necessarily relevant specifically to these things,

Evan: but that would be, I think, did you talk about that on your episode on,

Evan: you did an episode on your podcast.

Evan: I think it was one of the first ones I found. I think you talked about that, if I recall.

Nick: Yeah, we got into that quite a bit on that episode.

Nick: Because we were talking more about the books, I think. or no yeah just tolkien

Nick: in general it was just tolkien in general.

Evan: Yeah it was more of a tolkien episode so just.

Nick: Kind of looking at his writings and his life and how that influenced it and

Nick: like what we could glean from it as communist you know.

Evan: Yeah it'll be interesting in the future to do kind of

Evan: like a i don't know like a second part of that sort of

Evan: thing i need i read the reread the books i guess

Evan: for those episodes a year ago but i

Evan: need to maybe i need to read a little more uh other content and

Evan: then we could do some other um other things but

Evan: i guess one of the other plots we didn't talk about much at

Evan: all is like on numenor with you know the the queen

Evan: queen region who had come to you know middle earth to fight and then they you

Evan: know return home and i don't know i don't know is that much about numenor except

Evan: we know eventually that it's completely also destroyed but do you like i don't

Evan: know i'm not as that that plot to me feels very much the most like lord of Lord of the Rings,

Evan: like Game of Thrones-y where there's, you know, political plotting and fights over the queen,

Evan: you know, who's going to be queen or king and brothers and, you know,

Evan: planteers and all this nonsense.

Evan: And I don't know, that to me is like the least interesting one. I don't know. Yeah.

Nick: And I think that one really does suffer from this idea of like a more condensed

Nick: timeline because things are happening so fast and it's hard to keep track of who the people are.

Nick: You know, I think broadly there is that level of kind of political intrigue.

Nick: But like what's cool about like when you read like the stuff that there is about

Nick: like the second age is kind of like the way Tolkien presents this kind of like

Nick: decay of the island, right? They have this grandeur, this thousand-year reign

Nick: of glorious, and they treat other people good.

Nick: But eventually they get like, and this is kind of the Palantir thing,

Nick: they get super jealous of the elves and immortal life, right?

Nick: Turn to dark practices and kind of turn inward and stuff.

Nick: And that's manifested ultimately in that Farazan guy, the Muriel's cousin who

Nick: looks like he's going to become king.

Nick: So yeah, I don't know. They don't really tell the whole story, and it's hard to do it.

Evan: No, right. You almost would need multiple... You could have a show just about

Evan: each of these places, almost. You could have an elf...

Evan: Tv show or a show you know about what's going on there but doesn't farazan fight

Evan: sauron like some point and capture him or something like that yeah.

Nick: So ultimately how it like

Nick: works in like the lore is that like sauron kind

Nick: of openly declares himself and comes back

Nick: with an army of orcs and like fights gilgalid and all

Nick: them um and then the numenoreans

Nick: and it come to to their rescue and they basically like defeat Sauron and he

Nick: goes back to Numenor as like their captive but like he kind of turns into like

Nick: the dark and I think this is something that they're probably gonna do because

Nick: he has to get back to Numenor to kind of push that Farzan over the edge.

Evan: Right so yeah so maybe maybe that's actually what they're gonna as you said

Evan: they're compressing a lot of these things he'll have to get back there somehow

Evan: maybe that's maybe that's where he brings the rings for men perhaps maybe.

Nick: I think we're gonna see them go to a lot of different places.

Evan: Yeah i mean they want to i i don't want

Evan: to look at the like the descriptions of the

Evan: future episodes like i like to i try not to know spoilers before i watch things

Evan: just because but i'm sure that there's gonna have more there because why i'll

Evan: set all that up if it's not gonna pay off to something because if you're if

Evan: he's in the if he becomes king and then he does he become like the king of all

Evan: men is that what happens or no it.

Nick: Becomes like the king of numenor yeah.

Evan: Okay so i I don't know. Yeah, I need to, I don't have my, my, uh, lore.

Evan: I'm sure, I'm sure some, did you, some point during, maybe it was during the

Evan: Hoppet episode, did you send me, or at some point I had some website where if

Evan: you click on any like location in the, like in Middle Earth,

Evan: it would give you all these different details.

Evan: I don't know if you had sent this to me. I should have opened it for this, but anyway, um.

Nick: You have to send that to me if you can find it. I don't know if I saw that one.

Evan: I swear I had something about that. There was this crazy map that someone had

Evan: created where you could click on and it would tell you like how far things were

Evan: from each other and all these different.

Nick: That's really cool.

Evan: Path people took and it was all based on like you know sim really

Evan: in and all the all the different books or something but

Evan: yeah i'll find that and maybe i'll link it also in here but i don't know if

Evan: there's anything um i know because we talked about a lot of things we mostly

Evan: like but as far as things that like annoyed you from you know even the first

Evan: season or second season like was there anything that like stands out as just

Evan: you know this just doesn't make any sense at all like i don't know if there's uh anything.

Nick: I mean again i was trying not to like day on that too much which again,

Nick: it's just like the repeated things, like, you know, the Ents are coming now, right?

Nick: We're going to see the Ents. And I know they're really trying to make you feel

Nick: like middle, that you're in Middle Earth, but like when we saw the Ents and

Nick: then the, in the same one, we saw like a nod to Shelob.

Nick: And, you know, I guess as I'm talking it through, like I get it,

Nick: like they're trying to place you in the world with like familiar scenes and

Nick: familiar places and everything, but just sometimes it feels like a little overwrought

Nick: and that's just annoying me.

Evan: Yeah, well, I mean, they take a place that's not, I mean, it's a small place,

Evan: but it's still not that small where somehow they're able

Evan: to you know they are in the dark yeah the the she love thing also was very much

Evan: much creepier than maybe some of the ones in return of the king especially because

Evan: there's a lot of like little spiders that was kind of gross but yeah yeah i'm

Evan: not like i'm not usually a big fan of spiders in general but so i appreciated it yeah.

Nick: Yeah i get it i'll give you one thing that's annoying me is the whole like gandalf

Nick: and the hobbits line like it just feels completely unnecessary i.

Evan: Don't know what they i mean they only they wanted to have the hobbits involved

Evan: and i don't know any other way they could have been involved because they don't

Evan: do they at this point do they ever even cross paths with elves at this point i'm.

Nick: Sure because elves would still be kind of in that area so like i'm sure they

Nick: would be aware like the elves at least would be aware of their existence i don't

Nick: know about vice versa you know and yeah you're right i guess like how do you do it it just it's.

Evan: Irking me.

Nick: A little bit that Gandalf's coming in and like doesn't know anything. I don't know.

Nick: I get it. Maybe it's establishing his love and fondness for hobbits.

Evan: Yeah, no, I agree. I think that that's probably the weakest section,

Evan: and it doesn't really do much other than Gandalf learning his powers and his abilities.

Evan: And other than that, I don't know where that plot line will go.

Evan: And if it's... I don't know. Because we now have two wizards that have entered.

Evan: Well, unless you count... Yeah, two wizards, right? The dark...

Evan: What's the other wizard they have uh.

Nick: Oh that like dark wizard guy that they introduced well i don't even know who that is yeah.

Evan: I guess they don't really say see see i don't know does he kind of look like saran sarman sorry.

Nick: And it looks like sarman they're definitely going for that i don't think it's sarman um all.

Evan: Wizards just kind of look they just have a look i.

Nick: Guess so you know maybe they're just kind of like invoking christopher lee which

Nick: is like you know not the worst person or performance no he does he does look he does look a.

Evan: Lot like him he has kind of like the same facial.

Nick: Eyebrows and like the pointy beard features yeah i.

Evan: Actually really hope now that it's not him because that would kind of i think

Evan: that would kind of suck actually.

Nick: Yeah it just wouldn't make a lot of sense because like him and gandalf like

Nick: would have come over around like the same time and like that's also not to say

Nick: that like they're not supposed to come until the one ring's already been forged

Nick: so they're already way off with that but well.

Evan: Maybe they're gonna well yeah Yeah.

Evan: The only thing I could think of is if those two things, well,

Evan: I guess they make them obviously like they're on the same timeline unless,

Evan: yeah, I'm trying to give them credit by saying, okay, well, maybe those aren't,

Evan: it's not happening simultaneously as those.

Evan: And, you know, Gandalf will have some big realization when the actual one ring,

Evan: I don't know, isn't going to have the one ring. I don't know. Probably not.

Nick: Probably not. We'll see. But I mean, yeah, I don't know.

Nick: I mean, like I said, like I'm kind of stretching for things that I'd like are really bugging me.

Nick: Like there's always little things I think that just kind of accumulate you and

Nick: like you and I were talking about this offline.

Nick: It was like, you know, I'm enjoying it in the moment and then I find things

Nick: to kind of nitpick about it afterwards.

Nick: I'm like, Oh, why the fuck did they do that?

Nick: But again, I'm trying to let people enjoy things a little bit too now. Yeah.

Evan: Apparently they haven't announced the third season, but apparently they're leaning

Evan: to planning towards one.

Evan: I mean, I can't imagine they're just going to, it's very, very very popular

Evan: so you know someone's been doing.

Nick: Well like numbers wise i haven't really seen.

Evan: I don't know let's see uh is it considered like ratings i.

Nick: Don't know i mean like i'm sure amazon can invent its own kind of rating system.

Evan: To make it yeah because they don't they'll just announce usually like how many streams yeah.

Nick: And i don't know like what's good and what's not you know what i mean.

Evan: Yeah because they'll say sometimes for some netflix show come on it'll have

Evan: let's see rings of power season one uh the prequel had 25 million views in the

Evan: first 24 hours of its release,

Evan: But it says, and comparing it to the Game of Thrones, which when it was up, it had 10 million.

Evan: So, I mean, I guess that's a lot. Yeah. Again, seems like a lot.

Evan: I don't know. But they also could lie. I don't know. Who the hell knows?

Nick: That's what I'm saying. Like, we have to trust Amazon's own numbers at some level. But I don't know.

Evan: I mean, they wouldn't spend like a billion dollars or $500 million if it was not doing well.

Evan: Although, I guess I could see Jeff Bezos just being like, he has what?

Evan: $200 billion? What's one of them to make this show?

Nick: Yeah. although.

Evan: I'm sure it's not.

Nick: Actually his.

Evan: Money right so but still i don't know they'll.

Nick: Make five seasons.

Evan: Because they're gonna make four or five seasons because as.

Nick: Long as it does okay um they've got

Nick: enough here i think where it can justify like you know

Nick: four or five seasons based on what i've seen so far

Nick: you know um but then like again there's also

Nick: like if it continues to do well like there will be that

Nick: inevitable urge to draw it out and suck as much money as they humanly possibly

Nick: can off of it like so i don't know this is different but like speaking of amazon

Nick: shows like i've been watching the boys and i really enjoyed like the first few

Nick: seasons of it you know like it was cool but like just getting it's just too

Nick: much already like just yeah i've,

Nick: i've seen the whole thing.

Evan: And i feel like when i'm watching the last couple seasons i'm just nothing really

Evan: even makes any sense anymore it's almost like just extreme nonsense.

Nick: Yeah.

Evan: It's well, it's enjoyable. Okay. So here's something I just found.

Evan: It said that with the showrunners bought the rights, they bought the rights

Evan: for a 50 hour show, which means it would be five seasons.

Evan: And they claim that the payoffs won't end, you know, the won't pay off from

Evan: season one till season five.

Evan: And they already know what the last shot of the last episode will be,

Evan: which I assume will be, um, I don't know, killing the start of the Lord of the Rings, like opening.

Nick: That's what I would think too. Right? Like the Sildur cut in the ring.

Evan: But what's crazy is like it seems like they got to where they

Evan: are so quickly and then that's not that i don't know

Evan: they can move whatever pace they want again like again it's

Evan: good tv is it like perfect lord of the rings no but you know what it's gonna

Evan: do the same shit that game of thrones did i read all of the books the first

Evan: like three or four seasons were really good and then it just turned to shit

Evan: when they ran out of source material they don't really have any shortage of

Evan: source material it's just a question of how they use that i guess that's.

Nick: Exactly it yeah it could go for a while and into a lot of rabbit holes so you

Nick: know what they do with it i guess and i don't hate it just.

Evan: Enjoy it have tom bomb but have tom bombadil or something i.

Nick: Think i think he does pop in from what i saw.

Evan: When does he live for like

Evan: ever so he would be alive at this point yeah yeah yeah okay so they could have

Evan: him they could do whatever they want they could have gandalf meeting him i don't

Evan: know because isn't there like isn't there supposed isn't there like a council

Evan: with Gandalf and Bombadil and a whole thing that they don't they cut out of

Evan: or they didn't put in the second movie, Two Towers?

Nick: There is some kind of like I think meeting towards the end or something and

Nick: then the hobbits meet him in the fellowship but.

Evan: Yeah Bombadil deserves like to be in something.

Nick: Maybe they'll give him a cameo.

Evan: I wonder who will play him. I'm sure he'll be in it, but yeah.

Nick: One thing I'll say is they're not really relying on a lot of spectacle yet, at least.

Nick: I mean, in terms of epic battle stuff yet. I mean, visual and set piece spectacle, for sure.

Nick: But the battles are not here yet, and it's still got me hooked.

Nick: I think just to the point that the character work is pretty good,

Nick: and most of the dialogue is well done.

Evan: Yeah, most of it's well done, except for when they have to use callback lines.

Evan: There was one really bad one did i that we

Evan: did i send it to you there was one that was bad you said the one like he is

Evan: no man yeah there was another one when they were talking about the rings like

Evan: um oh god it was like one of the lines that galadriel says like in the uh like

Evan: the voice over in the very first fellowship and i can't remember what it was

Evan: yeah yeah one was created and see no i know.

Nick: What you're talking about i can't play.

Evan: There was some line as they said i'm like oh come on like this you know and

Evan: then and then i again have to do what you're doing is It's just like,

Evan: pretend for my sake that it's just Lord of the Rings content.

Nick: Maybe it's not dialogue as much as like, again, like the acting's good. So just stick with that.

Evan: Yeah.

Nick: I like the dwarves. I do like the dwarves. I mean, the dwarf storyline is kind

Nick: of, they've got to, you know, make it make a little more sense.

Nick: But like, I like, I love Durin and his wife. They're cool.

Evan: It's not, it's not, it's not too, uh, it's not too woke for, for that, for 2024.

Nick: Yeah. A black, only half bearded dwarf woman. What the fuck is this?

Evan: But I was telling Levi earlier today that I was recording this episode and we

Evan: were, I don't know, he asked me some question like, oh, do you like it even though it's too woke?

Evan: And I'm like, and I said, and I think the line I said was, is it Tolkien more

Evan: like Wolken or something like that?

Evan: Like, I couldn't think of a funny way to include it, but he's like,

Evan: you have to say it in the episode.

Nick: Someone on Reddit says that unironically now.

Evan: Says Wolken? Yeah.

Nick: No, I'm just, I'm speculating here.

Evan: Oh, okay.

Nick: I'm like...

Evan: I can't be the first one who said that, but he's like, oh, did you think of

Evan: that joke? I'm like, it wasn't really a joke. It's just, it's a play on.

Nick: That's good.

Evan: But yeah, that was like people who have those kind of complaints.

Evan: I don't take you seriously.

Evan: So you should just, you're not listening to this podcast if you think that the

Evan: word woke is like a worthy word to use. Yeah.

Nick: Stop being a chud.

Evan: But yeah, I don't really have anything, any other like thoughts.

Evan: Thoughts i mean yeah i mean this isn't this is not exactly

Evan: like one of those recap podcasts where we went through you

Evan: know scene by scene like you can you can go to

Evan: like esquire or i don't know other websites and read like recaps of each episode

Evan: if you want to get the detail and not want to watch it but that's that's that's

Evan: all i got um any uh any last thoughts on on this nick or any predictions i guess

Evan: we kind of well maybe it's too early in the season to predict we'll see,

Evan: if we'll since since we did this for three episodes and there's eight total

Evan: i don't know maybe we do this just in two parts or three parts whatever yeah.

Nick: Yeah maybe we could do one after the next three and then like for the i'm sure

Nick: the finale and maybe the last two will be longer so maybe that'll work out that way.

Evan: Yeah i gotta think the first one was like an

Evan: hour and 10 minutes and then the other were shorter but yeah it's

Evan: it's like 50 million dollars an episode or something crazy or 80 million dollars

Evan: it's like a movie for each episode but yeah we'll uh we'll we'll do uh do you

Evan: know further ones of these and hungry rye if you're listening well if you uh

Evan: catch up we'll glad to have you on the uh the next episode but any last thoughts nick no.

Nick: Man this was fun thanks for having me thanks for having me on.

Evan: Yeah it's uh the first uh the only other episode

Evan: i ever did on a tv show was just talking about

Evan: star trek as a communist tv show generally

Evan: just being like the communist utopia and i would

Evan: say that the tolkien middle earth universe is not the

Evan: communist utopia it is very much not but uh yeah it's the shire yes until we

Evan: build the shire that's right although i guess they do have some there is some

Evan: well maybe in a future episode we can talk more about um you know uh politics

Evan: of war of the rings of to a further degree it's.

Nick: Just socialism with baggins characteristics is all it is.

Evan: Is it uh bagginism is that the uh yeah yeah marxist bout marxist That's right.

Evan: Marks is Baggist. Something like that. That's right. But yeah.

Evan: Yeah, I don't have anything left, but Nick, it's been fun and I appreciate it.

Evan: Actually, you basically, you asked about doing this, doing talking,

Evan: I don't know if you actually about doing the episode, but I said, well, may as well do it.

Evan: But people should check out your podcast, even though you don't have stuff right

Evan: now, you should go listen to all of their Israel podcast.

Evan: Zionist series, but like 12 of them, 13, I don't know how many you have.

Nick: A lot of commentary. So I'm not educated on that yet. Yeah.

Evan: Yeah. If you're listening to this, you probably have some knowledge on that,

Evan: but there happens to be some shit going on right now, you know, in that region.

Evan: So you should read or listen to all of those episodes.

Evan: I appear in, I guess one of them, but it wasn't really a history episode.

Evan: It was more of a, of a discussing one, but Nick of Intervention, thanks for coming on.

Nick: Thanks for having me, buddy. Talk to you soon.

Evan: Cool. Well, everyone listening, you can listen to Intervention and Left of the

Evan: Projector on the internet where you can find podcasts and we'll catch you next time.