[00:00:02] When I started I had my paintings but it was not clear. So nothing happened. And I thought in the beginning, if I work hard in my studio and work on my projects, it will happen. What? I don't know. But I think I had to learn that you have to create your own opportunities

[00:00:22] I Was so shocked, I just did it. My hands just made this. And it was all the things that I had been thinking about during art school, after art school and then now it was there. I couldn't sleep for a few days because that's such a moment that things are really coming together.

[00:00:42] yeah, People who worked there found it all so difficult. Some people were really not happy. While I was building up already there came a lot of comments and yeah, the director he really was a fan of my work. So he did the talks with all these people and it was a very transparent building. So while building up, I could see him chatting with the employees about the work.

[00:01:12] Everyone told me no, impossible. It's really impossible to make this from steel. It's really impossible to cast it. there were no possibilities. And then someone told me about MX 3D

[00:01:25] And it was so nice to work with them

[00:01:34] Welcome back to the Installation Art podcast, the world's number one and only podcast about installation art and the people who work with it.

[00:01:44] In this show, you will hear about the joys and challenges of the medium and get a behind the scenes look at the careers and processes of internationally renowned guests. I am your host, Anastasia Parson.

[00:01:58] My guest today makes installations that are organic shapes, that invade architectural spaces like they're growing, spreading, or in a state of becoming.

[00:02:10] Tanja Smeets is a Dutch artist based in Utrecht. Her installations use everyday materials, often in overwhelming quantities to create parasitic layers that creep across walls, spill through galleries and transform public spaces.

[00:02:29] What makes Tanja's work especially unique is how she pushes the boundaries of craft, material and technology through her collaborations.

[00:02:39] Her work has been exhibited all over, in museums across the Netherlands, the US as well as China and South Korea. She has created several public installations and her work has been acquired by major collections worldwide.

[00:02:54] It is a pleasure to introduce today's guest, Tanja Smeets.

[00:03:00] it's very nice to meet you, Tanya. Thank you so much for taking the time to do this. I'm very excited to hear about your work.

[00:03:08] Thank you so much for inviting me. Super nice to talk to you

[00:03:12] As with all my other guests, I'd like to start with some easy questions, first thing that comes to your mind.

[00:03:21] Do you have a favorite quote?

[00:03:23] Favorite quote? Mm. I think it's always the title of my latest publication: Under The Pavement The Roots Are Whirling. That's something that I take with me in my head while working and thinking about my work. Yeah,

[00:03:40] Okay. What does it mean to you?

[00:03:43] it means that there's a layer that we see the pavement, daily life things that we know and um, there's something else going on underneath that pavement. it can be like disturbing or frightening can also be funny or strange. It opens a whole new world if you think about that, what's behind the surface of things.

[00:04:12] So that's, for me, the first thing related to my work.

[00:04:17] Yeah, It is very evocative of your work. What do you like to do in your free time when you're not working or doing art?

[00:04:26]

[00:04:26] Of course, work is always involved I think. I love to go to museums and see art shows. But I also love to read yeah, I wanted to say drawing or making stuff but of course that's all related to art, so it's also something ongoing that's in everything. But of course I also love to see friends and I love to cook.

[00:04:54] Yeah.

[00:04:54] Okay. And what is your favorite thing to drink while you're working in your studio?

[00:05:01] Yeah, I heard you asking this to all your guests and I was thinking I just water and now it's warm water because it's super cold.

[00:05:11] Okay.

[00:05:12] Or it's tea. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it.

[00:05:17] What kind of tea do you like?

[00:05:19] Uh, camomile tea or um, yeah with herbs or Yeah.

[00:05:25] And is there anything you'd like to listen to while working?

[00:05:28] Yeah. I listen to more programs in which people are discussing politics or art or science. It's more programs in which people are talking and discussing. But not so much music. And it's also something that I only do if I know what I'm doing. Not while I'm researching, but when I'm in a flow and only have to do some tasks the whole day, then I'm listening to these kind of programs.

[00:06:04] Yeah. Same. I can't usually listen to anything while I'm focusing.

[00:06:10] No, that's impossible. Yeah. But. When I'm really working, had a whole day on one thing, and that happens a lot also with my work. After a while, then I really enjoy to listen. I can really listen for hours too. Yeah. To these kind of programs.

[00:06:29] Yeah. Okay. Let's go back in time a bit and start from the beginning. Tell us briefly about where did you grow up and what kind of stuff were you into as a kid?

[00:06:43] I grew up in a village in the east of the Netherlands. And I think I was always drawing and making stuff and sewing and um, I was very simple doing embroidery things. I was crocheting, but always busy with making. And it was for me always also a project.

[00:07:09] I still remember some stress I have to finish this drawing or I have to finish this project what I'm doing. Eh, I was making a pillow or something. A few years ago I thought back towards these moments like wow i'm, in fact, I'm still doing the same and also that I create my own projects.

[00:07:33] So it's something I really feel at home in. And also I can create some deadlines for myself or I could already when I was a child. Yeah, recently my father died and then we we went through the house to see all the things that were still there. And then I also saw that he also had so many projects going on. Like he was a good cook, he was also drawing and writing. And it was also projects for him. Also he became 89, but still always busy, and it was yeah, moving to, to see this and to recognize also.

[00:08:17] Yeah, but this is a bit how I remember um, my childhood in the beginning, eh, when I was 13, I wanted to break out from all of this, from all the evenings drawing and making things.

[00:08:31] And then I felt really stuck in that little village you know, and, um, yeah, I wanted different things.

[00:08:40] Mm-hmm. And how did you come to discover Art?

[00:08:44] Oh yeah it seemed to be so far away. I knew there were people who went to art school, but for me, that seemed really distant. There was no way that I could go there. What I did when I was like 15, 16, 17, I was writing a lot in school. And I wrote stories and these were already a bit surreal.

[00:09:10] I can recognize it now. Of course, at that time I didn't know. And I started to study Dutch when I was 18. But already on the first day I knew this is absolutely not my world. I don't want to be in it. I don't understand it. This is not what I'm looking for. So

[00:09:32] What did you do?

[00:09:34] I felt burned out from it, you know? yeah. It was the direction I wanted to go to write and to do that. But studying Dutch is something else. It's not about creative writing. So, uh, I quit and after three months already, and then I went to live in Nijmegen, that's a city in the east of the Netherlands. And I went to travel. First travel was to Iceland with a friend. And that really did something for me in, yeah, knowing what I wanted to do because yeah, that country is amazing. And it is 40 years ago, so we didn't know anyone who had been there, but we found one woman in the Netherlands who could tell us a little bit. She had been there, there was no internet or anything, eh. So we just went there and then I remember that a pilot he was above Iceland and he made a turn like to show us a bit. And then I was really shocked about what I saw. It was only mountains and black land. And yeah, we were just like uh, 22 and we had a simple tent, very small, no money no equipment to to do this. And yeah, we traveled through that country with a bus and hitchhiking and of course it's, it didn't become dark at night.

[00:11:13] And we could camp really near icebergs and waterfalls and we were completely alone. And it was such an experience. You can imagine. And I was drawing and reading and, um. Yeah, there was also this strange atmosphere, during the day it was completely different than in the evening or the night. It became a little bit like, not dark, but the atmosphere changed. So the experience that you had on the same spots during the day was different during the night. And also if you walked in certain areas, you felt the earth almost knocking under your feet. So you felt the heat, the steam. So you really felt the earth and the power also of this overwhelming nature.

[00:12:10] And I think when I came back I knew I, I only wanted to draw and go on with making things. Yeah it changed a lot for me.

[00:12:21] Right.

[00:12:21] Wow. Sounds like a real adventure.

[00:12:24] Yeah. Yeah, it was, yeah.

[00:12:27] So did you then go and study art after that?

[00:12:31] Yeah. But first I went to a school where you indeed you studied art, but also to become a teacher. I made a lot of stuff also, I worked with clay and yeah, I really felt at home in working with clay and ceramics. But I also painted. And, um. yeah. After two and a half year in this school, I thought, no I just don't want this, also not the way you learn to be a teacher. Um, Completely different. I'm teaching now in, in the art Academy. It's completely different with what I learned there. And I thought, no, this is also not the way I see it. So I called the art academy in Arnhem and I really, on the phone, I told them I can't stand this anymore. I I want to go away from this. And they said, come and show us your work. And um, I could show my work and I could start in the second year. Yeah. I think, that there I really felt at home. But the strange thing was that I focused on painting. So what I told you, the other school ceramics felt so easy and it flew out of my hands.

[00:13:54] And um, the art academy I painted and I was focused on painting and it didn't go well. I felt really stuck with every painting.

[00:14:06] Were you trying to paint because that's what everyone else was

[00:14:09] yeah. I think I had something like uh, yeah, art is in painting.

[00:14:15] Yeah.

[00:14:15] That was the way, that was my focus. And also, in, in that time it was a lot about painting.

[00:14:24] Yeah, for sure.

[00:14:26] and of course I had really good conversations with my teachers and um, I learned a lot from that. I mean mentally the school was super interesting, but in the end there was nothing almost on my canvases. There was nothing, nothing happening. There was only one little painting when I graduated and it was like 15 to 15 centimeters and you saw the top of an arm and I painted that arm and there was a mushroom growing from it. And that's what I clayed on top of that arm. And I think that no one saw what I was doing at that time. you know, But I knew that little painting, there was something in it.

[00:15:22] Yeah. But of course it was difficult to graduate and not have the work there that you really want to make. And um, also the work didn't tell what my concepts were or what I was thinking about. Nothing. I couldn't in painting.

[00:15:43] So how did you go from that to making installations?

[00:15:48] It took a while. After leaving art school, I had my studio. We all had studios in, in, in squatted houses and buildings, we all worked there. And um, my paintings became more and more three dimensional. Like what I did with the mushroom, something grew out of a two dimensional painting.

[00:16:14] I started to do that with all the paintings. I cut out shapes. They were growing on top of the painting. Paintings were living. And I built it on top of it, but still there was this connection with painting. And then I moved to Utrecht and I had a studio here and I think from the first day on in that studio, I never painted again.

[00:16:41] I don't know what happened, but I bought some children's clay and yeah, the first sculpture, of course, I didn't know at the time. I made many round little balls and I made a a trunk from it. And a little figure grew out of that trunk, so it behaved like a branch. So you didn't see if you looked at a little tree with a branch coming from it, or someone standing on a tree trunk.

[00:17:12] And it was all made from these black round balls. I was so shocked, I just did it. My hands just made this. And it was all the things that I had been thinking about during art school, after art school a few years, and then now it was there. I couldn't sleep for a few days because that's such a moment that things are really coming together.

[00:17:39] And what I was always busy with that nature is crawling on top of a body and vice versa, that a body is almost um, completely connecting with nature and that surrounding and a person that it's all fluently interweaving, it came together in this sculpture, in fact. This brought me a lot.

[00:18:07] And in the beginning it was just really sculptures, but sometimes there were things laying around the sculpture or, uh, little round balls were growing on a tree. Also I still cut in photos. And then you saw little figures with landscapes on their bodies. So landscape and human were really connected. But now I found a way to also make it visual and also the audience could see what I was doing. And yeah, I think with that first sculpture, it happened for the first time. But after this, before I started to work towards installations like the sculptures, what I told you about with the round bulbs, they grew bigger, they became larger. And I, for example, made a figure that was completely connected with a chair. So they melted together or with a table. So the structures became really interwoven with the surroundings.

[00:19:14] And the, I think the first big installation was in a public space, in a park in Amsterdam. And I made a work with plastic tubes that I found in a shop with fishing equipment. And I worked with a lot of friends and family to make this work. We came together at the old farm of my partner and there we were working on knotting all these tubes into big shapes. And in the park I connected all these shapes towards a dripping hanging sculpture coming from the trees. And from a distance it seemed to be done by an animal or something. And then when you entered it, you saw all these structures and, also exploring that. It just was this plastic tube material.

[00:20:09] And after this I think an important other installation was in the Netherlands we have the Dutch buildings, it's for government buildings, it's an agency. And there's an arrangement that one percentage of the building costs is used for artworks. I don't know if it still exists, but it was super nice institute at that time. And I made a work and it was in the inspectorate for consumer goods. And I really loved that to make a work for them because of course these people were researching the safety of our food and toys, if they were safe.

[00:20:52] All the the stuff that we use, it was all about safety and health. And to be invited to make a work in their building was super interesting for me. And of course in their microscopes they only saw all these attacks on our health. And I made a sculpture that went through several floors.

[00:21:15] It really dripped from the highest floor towards the first floor. And it was. Also round bulbs, but they were covered with gray sand and it looked like hands and the fingers were going through the floor. But it was also very abstract because when you were on, on the second floor, for example, you only saw these like stalactites growing from ceiling to floor. And on the ground they were dripping through the ceiling and there was a little place to sit under it. And it was near an atrium and they were also going through the glass.

[00:21:56] So it was everywhere. And it was really moving through the building, through the walls. And yeah, people who worked there found it all so difficult to, yeah, some people were really not happy, but the director. The director while I was building up already there came a lot of comments and yeah, the director he really was a fan of my work. So he did the talks with all these people and it was a very transparent building. So while building up, I could see him chatting with the employees about the work.

[00:22:38] two part question about that. Firstly, how did those opportunities come about for you? 'cause that was a quite a big project.

[00:22:48] Mm-hmm.

[00:22:49] And how did you as a young up and coming artist have this kind of audacity is the word I usually use to make something so big? 'Cause it was very large scale that project.

[00:23:03] and I thought about it in a much larger way even. Like there should be three other projects in that building, but I had some advisors and they said no, focus on this. But I think it came to me because I had an exhibition before and there was a little publication with that exhibition and I sent that to everyone.

[00:23:27] And then someone who was an advisor at that agency, he saw that little book and came to me with a first small commission and afterwards I got this commission. So it's also, yeah, I think by sending out things and yeah, also being lucky that he just saw that book and thought about my work in that way.

[00:23:53] And I love it very much and also with this first commission that people are thinking about your work and it's really connecting completely with the project. In some cases also people find a location for my work and it's really a very precise connection with what I'm doing in my work, what's happening on that location. All these layers are coming together. And of course if these things are happening it feels very good. Yeah.

[00:24:27] Yeah. I admire your work because you use such diverse materials and techniques but it still looks cohesive. Like you, you look at it and you're like, oh, yeah. It's Tanya's work. How do you decide how do you decide which material is right for any particular project?

[00:24:51] That's a long research because yeah, you know, I, I use also all these materials coming from daily life or construction shops, building. And it takes a long time before I know that a material has the capacity to also transform in works. And I don't know if you know which work but I worked with the concrete spacers, these little whites, they look almost like a flower.

[00:25:21] They are used in pouring concrete, holds the construction in the right place. And when I first saw them in, in a building material shop, I thought what's this material? They have flowers here. Why? And they also sell them in different sizes. What's this? And they were also not expensive. I thought, what is? So I took some of them to my studio but I had them in a box and I thought, yeah, it's nice, but I didn't know how I could use them. They still stayed this plastic material, and then I connected them with tie wraps and for the first project, it was in the Dyckman Farmhouse Museum in New York, I had an invitation because. There's this relation between the Netherlands and New York, and they wanted to celebrate the 400 year relationship. So artists were invited to work in five boroughs of New York, and I did it in the Dyckman Farmhouse Museum, a Dutch farmhouse in the northern tip of Manhattan.

[00:26:36] And then I brought these materials with me, they were still flat, but connected with the tie wraps. And outside there was a pillar also white. And then I started to almost clay with that material.

[00:26:52] Like I, I made it in round shapes, I let them drip. And um, I could really work with the material and it became almost foam from a distance. If you entered, you saw all these details, like all the different sizes of the material. Yeah. It really transformed the whole pillar and a part of the outside of the building. So then I knew I can really work with this. But I think it's, there are a few years between finding the material and making the first installation. And from there I made a larger installation and then the next installation was in Museum Boijmans van Beuningen and there the work started in a little, there were four cabinets with a glass window in front of them.

[00:27:50] The work was inside. People could sit on it also and they did a lot, they were reading, they were hugging, they were chatting. And then the work grew towards the outside of that cabinet. And it grew through the hole and it was dripping there. And so that's with every new installation from a smaller work towards larger. And that feeling that I can really clay with the material and have it in my hands, can connect it.

[00:28:26] Yeah. Then I. I can work with it, but it takes time. And it's with each material, it's a constant also struggle in the beginning, but also a super interesting and exciting struggle of course. But I never know the outcome.

[00:28:44] Is there anything that you've found and haven't been able to use yet that you haven't figured out?

[00:28:51] No, I don't think so. I'm now busy with a new material so I hope it'll work. I mean it is for a show but it's also new for me, i'm still exploring. And it's a combination of textile and ceramics. Yeah, I think it will work. But I hope it also will grow out towards a larger work.

[00:29:15] Yeah.

[00:29:15] What's the most maybe unusual or weird or difficult material you've worked with so far?

[00:29:23] Yeah, I think in someone else's eyes they are unusual, like the leaf catchers. I, you know, them maybe the gray balls this started in fact from the textile Museum. We have a great museum in the Netherlands. It's a textile museum and they have a textile lab. And that's a lab where artists and designers and architects can explore textile.

[00:29:46] And it's really a great place with lots of machines and um, people who like great advisors. And I was invited to work there. It was collection commission. I could work like 20 days in that lab and made a new installation. And it was also part of the the collection of the textile museum.

[00:30:09] I worked with a knitting machine. I worked with a laser cutting machine and then I started to explore this grey felt, all the shapes that come from plants and I knitted tubes. They were growing high and they had all these round bulbs coming out. But of course I was used to work with existing materials. I think next to working with ceramics, it was with textile for the first time that I really made it with my own hands. And the thing is, it's also very beautiful, textile in, in fact if you work with it. And I needed a material that was a bit a clash with this material. I needed some friction in the work.

[00:30:55] And yeah, of course I was working with this gray felt and then I found in the, the building um, shop, I found these leaf catchers and I thought, what a strange object. I, I have to tell you, I don't know anything about these materials. I don't know what they are used for. And this was the same, but I thought, why are they making this like a nice gray thing with little gray arms and little dots on the sides?

[00:31:28] And, um. I took it to the studio and then yeah, I saw the connection with the felt. I could push it through and then all these little fine refined structures popped out. So I knew I had a connection. And that's really great. And from there, this grows out into large structures and round bulbs with this material and also the motion in the large gray bulbs.

[00:32:00] Because I wanted the installation to also be alive. Of course, I am always suggesting that a work is living and growing and leading an autonomous life. But I wanted to strengthen even that feeling like enhance it by bringing motion in the work. And then the gray balls started to move a little bit and then the material did something else what I really like, it starts to crackle. These leaf catchers they tickle on top of each other while moving. And then as a visitor, you really hear like these kind of noises yeah, you're really walking through nature or woods, don't know where. So yeah, what I want to say is it goes on and on with a material. It opens up to constant new possibilities. It doesn't stop.

[00:33:03] What kind of skills have you had to learn to do the work you do?

[00:33:08] I think it started with uh, going to the European Ceramic Work Center and before I really used all these existing materials. But when I went there, the first time was for a three months residency. And it's a place like the Textile Lab where artists and designers and architects can experiment with ceramics and mostly also people who never worked with ceramics before.

[00:33:36] And I had this three months residency and I just tried out so much with clay and with porcelain. And you also make your own glazes. So I worked with porcelain, added clays and other materials and then I had some frying sieves with me, these steel frying sieves used in China also a lot.

[00:34:02] And then I pushed this material through that sieve and it melted completely in the kiln. And I was really intrigued because I also uh, felt a kind of struggle with ceramics. It has that beautiful appearance, same with textile. And now I saw that I could influence it, use also materials from daily life like that sieve and influence the shape and the appearance.

[00:34:31] And um, I also found out that if I brought in different temperatures in the kiln that it melted less or more. So I could make a range of different substances with the porcelain so I could really make a complete installation out of this work later on in Museum Boijmans van Beuningen also in one of the cabinets.

[00:34:59] But yeah, I must say ceramics and of course I told you I, I began with ceramics in fact, so going to the European Ceramic Work Centre also felt like coming home again in this area. But I must say that I always need another material to combine with all these elements that I make myself. Because this fact that I use something coming from daily life and that you really recognize like an object that is always around us that's not strange, that's not made, that has a kind of ugliness also is something that I want in the work.

[00:35:46] And it has to do with this whole idea that I'm working with. What I told you under the pavement the roots are whirling, that there's another layer under things.

[00:36:00] After the Academy I started to look at these David Lynch films like Eraserhead and Blue Velvet for example, where you are in a complete controlled suburban world. And then someone finds an ear in the grass and from there the story evolves. I love to work with the things behind the things, and if I use. Materials coming from daily life, it means that everything has the capacity to grow and to lead an autonomous life and to be something else.

[00:36:40] And it also, I think, opens things for me to see it in a different way. And I also hope for the audience that's entering the installation, see all the things that you in fact can recognize from the world around you. But they are growing into structures and um, into things that seem to come from nature but are not. That it opens up new possibilities

[00:37:09] Yeah.

[00:37:10] and new relations between things. Between nature and between what we are using and why we are using it and in these amounts and. Yeah, I hope it builds up new layers.

[00:37:24] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:25] You mentioned earlier like the residency in the textile lab. You've worked with some pretty impressive institutions. How did those collaborations come about? And also second part to that question, you said you had 20 days to create something in the textile lab. That sounds very short.

[00:37:51] Did you arrive with a clear vision of what you wanna do there and tell us about how those residencies go?

[00:37:59] Yeah. I had no idea because I never had used a knitting machine and laser cutting. I had done it in, in steel, but not in textile. And it was very short. Yeah. And also the textile lab offers no residency, so it's in the European ceramic work center, you stay there. So in the evening you can really reflect on what happened and make new decisions.

[00:38:26] But the textile lab, you go home at night and then you come back. So I needed all the time in between. And the beginning of this installation was just very a small work. And this small work was then for the collection of the textile museum. But after this they invited me for an exhibition and they gave me the possibility to work further on that installation.

[00:38:56] And after this I think two years ago the exhibition was Is It Alive and then I could really complete the installation so years after with the moving objects in it too. So it's, you, you have to imagine in the end, it takes a few years before the installation is really completed. But these invitations to really explore a complete new material, it brings after a while, also this complete new installation.

[00:39:33] And you asked me about the invitation for this collection commission, and I think the curator yeah, she had seen some of my works, but these works, she thought that I was working always with textile but it was absolutely not the case. I worked, for example, with chains, eh uh, from metal, and I knotted them and welded them

[00:40:01] Into a dripping construction. But of course it appears as textile. Also, the works with the concrete spacers, they almost look like textile. And I had worked with textile but it was just existing fabrics. So I never made this myself. And it was in the textile lab that I also explored colors and how I could create my own colors by twisting and by um, braiding textile yarns.

[00:40:35] And it's brought me back also to painting more and more. I have the feeling that when I'm building an installation that I'm really painting in the space. But now witty objects, with the materials, but Also I have it in my hands. I can really connect it to the space and react on what the space asks for me or what I think that's needed there.

[00:41:03] So it, yeah, more and more I think I'm again connecting with painting. Also because I'm playing more and more with color.

[00:41:14] Yeah. Interesting.

[00:41:16] yeah.

[00:41:17] Um,

[00:41:19] yeah, I'm surprised myself, you know, I had such a struggle with painting and then uh, that you still are connected and still use everything from it, but in a complete different setting.

[00:41:36] Mm-hmm. Yeah. You're not the first person who has told me that actually. Um, A few spatial artists see themselves as painters in a way.

[00:41:48] yeah,

[00:41:49] It's interesting.

[00:41:50] yeah.

[00:41:51] did the textile lab, they invited you, you didn't apply for it?

[00:41:56] No, they invited me and then later on if I had a project I applied to go on and to um, make extra. Yeah, so I went back, a few times to work again with them. But then also it was like for Kunsthal KAdE in Amersfoort, they had a budget for the exhibition and then I could use it to work again in the textile lab.

[00:42:25] And what is it like working with people who are outside maybe the visual art world? Is there some friction or translation that you have to do between your language and theirs, or like how do you navigate that collaboration?

[00:42:43] Now the advisors in the textile lab, they really only work with artists, designers, architects. There's no gap. Absolutely not. There's only a lot to learn I think from them. And that's what I like a lot with people. For example I worked with someone she had embroidered for a fashion design in the Netherlands. And she learned me to embroider. She came to my studio and I really had lessons like she could embroider in 3D and uh, yeah, it, that's so difficult, that's another level. On silk, with a special needle. It feels like you are parking blind backwards, it's not possible almost. For me, it's almost too refined. So from there I started to work with a braiding machine in the textile lab so I could use these techniques, but on a bigger scale.

[00:43:46] But I learned from almost everyone with whom I'm working together. I also learned from how someone else is thinking. I love to work in teams with people. I'm really curious. And also it's so nice to be constantly in other settings. Like it's with the works in public space, but also if you travel for your work. Yeah.

[00:44:11] I also worked in a little factory in China. You know, In China you have these vases with flowers on top from porcelain or plates with flowers on top. And I was invited for a project over there and I could work in a factory and they learned me how to make these flowers from porcelain. Amazing, you know, with all these women on the table and then learning how to do this. And mine were completely falling apart, but theirs were perfect. But the combination of these two was working in the installation.

[00:44:49] So it's super nice to go to places also and learn and yeah, I really enjoy constantly learning these new techniques.

[00:45:04] Tell me, is your work always site specific?

[00:45:08] Yeah, I think it is. And I always start with thinking I'm making a more autonomous sculpture but then after a while it, it grows into a very large and a large work, but also connecting all the other parts. My work is really growing in fragments, eh, in the studio. I don't have a large studio, it's 50 square meters. So everything is in fragments. I don't see the work, how it will end up in an installation, I only see parts of the work in my studio. But for example, now I'm working with kind of crocheted strings from cotton and elastics. But in fact, these strings were made for sausages and they have a really, yeah, a beautiful cotton color, same as the ceramics. So the ceramics is inside these strings, but I'm also making a tufted work like a carpet tufted, but also combined with ceramics. But this will be on the wall, the strings will grow in the space. There are ceramics laying on the floor. There are tufted works laying on the floor, so you could see them as individual works. But in the end, I think about it as a whole installation, and that's constantly what happens.

[00:46:40] Do you ever reuse elements of an installation in another project?

[00:46:46] Constantly, but then adapted to the new space with new elements in it. And um, things are going out that are not fitted for that new location. So it's, yeah, also with the gray felt but also with the concrete spacers, it's constantly reusing, rethinking. A work can appear in a complete different way in a new space.

[00:47:13] So do you basically build the installation in the exhibition space?

[00:47:18] Yeah. And it's a bit frightening every time because yeah. What I tell you if, if someone enters my studio and I say, yeah, this will be a large installation there and there, and then the other one doesn't see anything of which are only fragments on the floor and hanging, you know, one piece.

[00:47:38] It's like, okay, you know what you're doing, but

[00:47:41] Yeah.

[00:47:42] it's difficult!

[00:47:42] Has there been ever a time where it just didn't come together right in the space?

[00:47:49] To think about it. I think sometimes it's difficult and it's more difficult in a white cube space.

[00:47:57] Yeah.

[00:47:58] Yeah, I find that actually interesting. I was looking through your work on your website and you have exhibited in some really fantastic, unique spaces, like historical, weird, inside, outside, and then the images of your work in a white cube or kind of like, mm,

[00:48:19] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:19] yeah, the work is cool, but the setting is like,

[00:48:23] yeah. Yeah. It's more artificial and it's the best when the work blends in.

[00:48:30] Yeah,

[00:48:30] in a very natural way. Yeah.

[00:48:33] It works so much better in cases where it's really growing out of the building or, yeah, sometimes it's just looks like

[00:48:42] yeah.

[00:48:43] part of the nature. You have these little, I'm not sure if it's ceramic on top of these rocks. I think it was in uh, Barcelona.

[00:48:53] Mm-hmm.

[00:48:54] And it looks like little corals or something growing out of the rock. And I was like, how did she do that? It looks like it's molded to the rock.

[00:49:02] Yeah. Yeah. And you have to know this was an excavation from the fifth or sixth century. It's graves that you're looking at. And yeah. And it was a kind of a miracle that they allowed me to step in there and use this

[00:49:19] to manipulate the

[00:49:20] Yeah, Yeah. But of course, what we did was I had a great team there with whom I worked together, right. was super nice with Manifesta. And um, they found these stones that appeared very much uh, they looked the same as the stones that were in the excavation. And uh, I melted this material on the stone. but still they allowed to put in these other stones, the material on top of uh, these stones from the fifth century.

[00:49:57] I could really grow my work in this surrounding. And this installation meant it's so nice that you mention it because it means a lot to me. I have the feeling there I could really go in depth with the connection between what's from the site itself and my work. You cannot see the difference almost. The skin from the site itself and the skin of the work are melting together. And with the new work, I'm working with this also and with these elements. Because what also was, it was partly tufted material. It was 3D printed flax and I melted this and that had the appearance of ceramics, so I combined it with ceramics.

[00:50:50] So also in the materials everything was interwoven and one material melted into another and you couldn't see the difference anymore. So I also learned from my own installations, of course like, I didn't know how it would grow out into another installation, but it's an area that I want to research more.

[00:51:13] So do you build and install everything yourself by yourself?

[00:51:19] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's most of the time, yeah, I do. And then also with great teams, like with manifesto, I had this site, it was a complex of churches and the excavation, and then I had another site in a textile factory and there was also a team to assist me will with building up. But I also love it to be there, to be in it and also to work together with a team.

[00:51:52] That's also a, yeah, an important part of my work.

[00:51:56] Yeah, so do you like pre-make elements or like fragments of it and then you go in the space and you assemble it and you don't quite know how it's gonna come together?

[00:52:08] I make a lot of sketches and I feel very free when I start. Before the period of building up there's this period of really working so hard in the studio on all these different elements. Because for me it's important that you enter a space and see the complete installation and then you you come near the work and you see all the details and the details are as important as the complete installation.

[00:52:40] So I work on that and then I start building up and something else happened, I start to play with the material again. It's new, I feel very free with it, i'm not thinking about all the time and what I did with it. It's an open new field. And indeed, yeah I start to connect all the fragments.

[00:53:02] Like in that textile factory in Barcelona for Manifesta it was also so nice that there was dust hanging. That factory had been closed for years already and it was only open for the public sometimes in a weekend. But now for Manifesta, it reopened. So you find an old factory space with a big engine standing in the middle. It was called the wolf. It was really huge. There was a lot of dust hanging. Everything was standing like it had been standing there for years. And then the work crawls through that whole setting. That's for me, the perfect uh, site Yeah, I can really interweave my structures with what's happening there.

[00:53:52] And how long does it typically take you to install a large installation like that?

[00:53:59] I think the one in Kunsthal KAdE for example, in Amersfoort took me like two weeks because this was lots of different works, but with Manifesta Manifesta it was for each installation for five days.

[00:54:16] happens to the work once the exhibition's over?

[00:54:20] It's in fact unraveled in fractals again, and then packed. It comes to my studio and yeah, what I told you, mostly I reuse it. Also, all these bulbs from leaf catchers, they are sometimes outside in projects combined with other materials. So it's an ongoing process also.

[00:54:46] Yeah. And how do these large projects get funded?

[00:54:52] Yeah. I heard you asking this to the others too. Yeah. Interesting. With projects, it's mostly a budget for production coming from the project, and then there's a fee for my work. And in the Netherlands we have the Mondrian Fund, it's a fund that offers grants for artists, but also if a project abroad has a certain amount of money for an installation that I will make for them, they can also ask for 50% of the costs at the Mondrian fund. So sometimes it's also a combination between the organization and the the grants from the Mondrian funds.

[00:55:40] So the arts funding in the Netherlands is quite good by the sound of it?

[00:55:46] It it's this is quite good. But of course there are many artists and there's not enough money. And we also have a government that's uh, not interested in art. We have had a lot of problems with the government about art and yeah it's a pity I think that also in such a country as the Netherlands that there's not enough um, know how and support for what the artists are doing here. But we're very happy with this funding. And also it helps a lot with projects abroad.

[00:56:23] Yeah. And do you have any kind of, business side or commercial side for your practice? Like making smaller, more sellable works or anything like that?

[00:56:35] I am always thinking about it. But it doesn't happen. I'm always disappearing in big installations. And with every new installation, I'm thinking about this, what you are mentioning now. It would be so smart.

[00:56:54] Well, you know,

[00:56:58] You do what you wanna do, not, you know?

[00:57:01] yeah, yeah, But it's also like now with the ceramics that someone says, oh, already one part of this, I would love to have it. You know?

[00:57:11] Hmm.

[00:57:12] Yeah.

[00:57:13] Of course, of course. But then it goes all in these big structures.

[00:57:18] you have also made installations that are kind of made of smaller parts like metal and ceramic

[00:57:25] yeah, yeah. True. Yeah. I also made an installation in someone's house, for example. Yeah.

[00:57:33] kind of materials did you use

[00:57:36] the concrete spacers. Yeah, the concrete spacers. They had it hanging above their stairs for a few years. Yeah. Yeah, that's happening.

[00:57:47] Do you have any behind the scenes stories of something going wrong during the installation or exhibition process?

[00:57:55] Uh, Yeah. Yeah, you asked me about installing everything yourself and sometimes it's also like, oh, um, what if it's not possible to install it yourself? And once I was invited to make an installation in the Museum of Arts and Design in New York and I had to go there to build up. Of course, before this project I did the project in the Dyckman Farmhouse Museum and I had a great assistant there and she was also assisting me for the museum of Arts and Design. And I would fly there two or three weeks before. And then a volcano had an outbreak In Iceland, but there was a, a big dust cloud above Iceland so there were no planes going there.

[00:58:51] And then uh, for the first time, the frame was already there for the work. I had the drawings and everything there.

[00:59:00] It was a work with red lentils in lycra and they had the lentils and the lycra but we had to knot the lentils in the lycra. So it was a complete

[00:59:11] Ah.

[00:59:12] work that had to be knotted there on the spot. so then I started every day in Zoom with Rachel, the assistant, and learned her how to knot this. And the team from the museum already installed the frame, so if I could fly, but it took like five, or six days before I could go there. So I lost a week. But it was an interesting process too, because I had some distance, eh, looking in my screen, seeing, no the frame should be a little bit to the left or to the right. I had some distance.

[00:59:50] it almost helped me. And then they knotted a lot already, a lot of work was already done when I came there. And I really came out of that plane, took the subway, went to the museum, and we worked. I was immediately on the scaffolding building up. So it offered me also like, okay, it is possible in a way, but no, most of the time.

[01:00:18] And also finalizing an installation cost me a lot of time to have it really um, yeah, interwoven with the site.

[01:00:29] Mm-hmm.

[01:00:30] Most people think it's ready after three days of building up, but then it starts for me, like every yarn has to drip in the right position so that it looks really natural and belonging to that place.

[01:00:45] Yeah, so that's a big part of basically the art itself.

[01:00:51] Yeah. This interweaving the structures. Yeah. And working with what's already coming from the architecture, coming from a building, reacting on it. So it always is important for me to do a site visit. And um also in Barcelona for example, I test the materials. I go there with just small materials, I lay them on top of the, in this case, the excavation, I test how the material behaves in a certain space. And then also for me, the process starts like, okay, then I need this and I have to work more with this. Color should be this... you know, it's, I really need that connection.

[01:01:39] Yeah. Yeah. So it really is informed by the site.

[01:01:45] Yeah. So, You talked about like the traveling aspect and getting funding for travel. So you have had quite large installations overseas. Have you had any absurd or weird situations during the transport or other than the volcano incident, transporting your work?

[01:02:09] 'cause it's quite a large amount of stuff.

[01:02:12] Yeah. Yeah. And also sometimes the work takes time and there's always a bit of pressure. Building up takes time. So it's stressful, the whole shipping part of the work. So with my project in Miami in Museum Vizcaya we tried to avoid this. So I decided to make the work in all the fragments. Eh, I all had these laser cut felt fragments. So I filled five suitcases with all these fragments of laser cut material and the leaf catchers and the knitted tubes. And I found the largest suitcases, but I traveled on my own and I had assistants over there. And yeah it all went well but then I came in Miami Airport. I had a letter from the museum, but I was on my own with these five suitcases. And then these guys came out of their uh room, come with us. What are you doing here on your own with five suitcases?

[01:03:27] Are you moving to? Yeah. Yeah. Oh. And then I was sitting with these guys there and, um. they read the letter, they knew the museum, I was happy to hear that. But then I thought I, I, I said, I have a book with me about my work. Do you like if I tell you something about it? Like If I want to give them a lecture? And then they said, no, absolutely not.

[01:04:00] And I could go,

[01:04:02] Okay. That's funny.

[01:04:04] yeah.

[01:04:05] you talked your way out of it by threatening them with education. That's good.

[01:04:14] yeah. Yeah. And then I started to build up over there and it was so special. That site in Miami, I could also work at night and I was alone in the house, only with a guard sitting somewhere. But it was a special site, I think. When you were outside the house was built like on a porous limestone and there just had been a huge hurricane, so there were trees fallen down and you felt climate change there, in Miami you really feel, like in Venice it's the sea level is rising and um.

[01:04:56] But the gardens around this house are super organized, super structured. So with the work, I also wanted to already crawl with unorganized nature, uncontrolled nature in the house. And I made a work that dripped from the second floor downstairs. And uh, there also I was many days working with this, that the work really grew into, I don't know if you saw the photos of that building, but it's really an interesting place with the pillars around a big hole.

[01:05:33] And there's so much happening already inside the building that it was really nice to meld it together with the work. To meld the together with the building, I must say. Yeah.

[01:05:45] Have you ever had to make a difficult decision in your career, like turning down an opportunity or changing direction or having to make a choice?

[01:05:58] Yeah, I think with the commissions it's sometimes like that. In the beginning with the first commission with an architect who was really a bit of like it had to go the way he wanted it to go, and um, his building was already finished and then the art comes in. You know, That's always a bit a search for um, of course I also got a lot of freedom with that work, dripping through several floors and walls.

[01:06:31] Yeah. But now, lately I haven't had that struggle anymore with commissions like in the Westerpark where I made my latest work in the public space, it went super fluent. Yeah. that's also a nice thing to tell you maybe. But there I worked with 3D printing um, with metal, with MX 3D.

[01:06:58] Yeah. They use robotic 3D printing, metal printing, and I worked with stainless steel. I don't know if, do you know that technique?

[01:07:09] I didn't even know you could 3D print stainless steel.

[01:07:14] I also didn't know.

[01:07:16] I made my my sketch proposal and I thought, I'm going to make this as a work, it's a tree trunk and then there's a big fan coming from it with roots crawling in a kind of a half of a circle. So the work is three and a half meter high, five meter wide, six meter deep. And then you see it already if you enter the park, you see it from the bridge. And I thought I wanted to make this work in metal or go to a foundry to make it in aluminum, to cast it. And then after proposing the sketch proposal, and it was still a pitch, but I got the uh, commission, everyone told me no, impossible. It's really impossible to make this from steel. It's really impossible to cast it. there were no possibilities. And then someone told me about MX 3D and um. I went there and it's, it was so nice to work with them, the technique is like you weld in circles, the robot welds on a steel plate in circles, dots of the metal.

[01:08:31] So there a ring exists and then the next ring and then the next, and it's all circle. But you can imagine with my work, all these circles, they appear really like a growing structure. It felt for me, like working in the textile lab with the knitting machine, but now with metal.

[01:08:52] And the thing is with this, you have to draw this in a program to let a computer do what you wanted to do. And that's the difficulty. But I worked together with an amazing guy who knew how to do everything with this. Even work in layers and he could create tissues that seemed to be alive and he laid them over the shape I wanted. So for the first time in my work, I was not working with my hands but with my head in a zoom meeting with him constantly.

[01:09:30] And just by looking at the work and thinking, no, it should be banded more there, this should interweave more. The structure should be... in this way we managed to make the work Like it was organically grown, you know. That the structure was grown from the pavement in the park in the height. So super interesting to work in this way. And also it offers me new ways to think about working with uh, with metal. Because I can work in such an organic way. And also nice because they can only make structures from one meter high.

[01:10:13] So afterwards, this whole complex, huge work had to be welded together. Of course, this was almost impossible because it's bending, but they had VR glasses, so you were almost inside the work. And then they could really feel like where it was banded and which parts should be where. And that's the way they welded the complete work. And you don't see anything of it. It really seems to grow organically. And also for me, very important, irregular, these structures are going everywhere. You you don't see that it's made by a computer, so people are touching it to feel, what is this? It has a kind of, orange, red, yellow color. There's a shade of these colors over the work made from wax. But the thing is, people are touching it. People are climbing it, so the wax is disappearing. I have to redo this in the summer.

[01:11:19] Okay.

[01:11:20] Yeah.

[01:11:21] So how did you go about firstly finding these kinds of collaborators, like the metal people or the 3D modeling guy? And how did you convince what I would imagine busy professionals to pause what they're doing and help you work on an art project?

[01:11:45] I think for example, for MX 3D, it's also important next to what they do for the industry to explore. And I think with artists you are also pushing the boundaries, the possibilities. It's always something that's... they didn't do this before in this way. I think for companies sometimes that's the interesting part.

[01:12:10] But also I think sometimes it's going too far. Like what I told you when I worked with the metal chains and they had to be knotted and it needed thousands of welding dots. Then someone can also think what am I started with her? It always takes so much time. It's time consuming. And with MX 3D, I think what went very well is that we took a lot of time for the drawing period. We were sitting together and they really understood that there shoulds be no line that seemed to come from a computer. There was no straight line. And they understood that I wanted a irregular self growing structure.

[01:13:01] Yeah. No repetition.

[01:13:04] no, indeed,

[01:13:06] All these frictions super important. And we took the time for that process, and we made a lot of tests. Yeah.

[01:13:15] Yeah. Very interesting project. Are you gonna do something like that with them again?

[01:13:20] I hope so. But that is something that really has to come from a commission because it's just. Too expensive for a project. And um, the material is so strong it can exist in a public space yeah, forever.

[01:13:37] Except the wax.

[01:13:39] yeah, the wax is a problem.

[01:13:42] I was gonna ask you what's the paint? Like how did you figure out what's gonna last? But obviously it's still a work in progress.

[01:13:51] a work in progress because I didn't want just a coating because a coating should close a bit all that's happening already in the skin by the printing. It's so nice with all these, there are little knots on the outside. I leave it all like that, that makes the work even more alive.

[01:14:13] So that's why I chose for the wax. And it's it's melting more together with the stainless steel.

[01:14:21] Mm-hmm.

[01:14:21] It's not a skin on top. It's really something seems to come from the material and it makes also that people want to touch it to understand it.

[01:14:32] Yeah,

[01:14:33] You don't know what you're looking at. Yeah. Yeah.

[01:14:36] I mean, Your work in general looks pretty tactile. Does anything ever get damaged by just the audience wanting to touch and find out what it is?

[01:14:47] I think people also feel that it's, it's fragile. And I know for example from Boijmans with all the ceramics that nothing happens. And the one work that people really could go in and sit on top yeah, it was really like, the material is a bit white, afterwards it was gray.

[01:15:10] Hmm.

[01:15:11] but it was something I wanted. I, I love it to also have people in the installation. I like that a lot that they are part of it. And also yeah, in the complete image. I love it that people are part of the work. But so far so good. Yeah. And also with the ceramics in the public spaces, no that's going well.

[01:15:37] That's good.

[01:15:38] Yeah.

[01:15:40] Is there a hard truth you've had to learn as an artist or a bitter pill you've had to swallow?

[01:15:49] Yeah, I think what I told you when I started I had my paintings but it was not clear. So nothing happened. Nothing happened. And I thought in the beginning, if I work hard in my studio and work on my projects, it will happen. What? I don't know. But I think I had to learn that um yeah, you have to create your own opportunities by doing many things.

[01:16:21] And I think when I graduated there were a lot of artist run spaces and there were these squatted buildings that we could work in. So it was maybe a bit more open than it is now. But this, creating opportunities and still thinking about my own projects, let the work grow and um, making publications and connect to people. And it's in the work itself but also next to the work.

[01:16:53] Yeah, that's also something I, I like a lot, but I think this was, for me, the beginning was super complex.

[01:17:00] Do you have a dream project? If you could do anything anywhere with any material,

[01:17:07] Some kind of a fantasy?

[01:17:11] Mm-hmm. Yeah I have. I, I would love to have like separate rooms and then you enter one installation, afterwards there's another installation, there's another installation. But also I think I would work with performance. I did once.

[01:17:30] Hmm.

[01:17:31] Before I worked with motion in these round bulbs, I did a performance with a mime player and I worked together with someone from scenography and we made a costume for him. And what I wanted was that my installation was there, he, he was laying on the floor and he moved with really small motions. And um, these leaf catches were already on his suit and he was also wearing a helmet completely from leaf catchers, laying in the installation with round bulbs also next to him. No one saw that this was a person and he made these small movements and people were in the installation. And then they saw in a glimpse of their eye am I the only one who experiences this and hear this crackling sound?

[01:18:32] And um, it, it was a beautiful image, but it was also so stressful because this costume was super warm for him. And I knew after 10 minutes I have to get him out. And then

[01:18:47] 10 minutes. Wow.

[01:18:49] I had to say to the audience, please leave, have that helmet from him, take him out of the costume. And I thought, no, this is not, I cannot do this.

[01:19:01] And then I had to invite people, again, him in the costume. I wanted it to be just part of the installation, so I'm still thinking about this. I made um, a little film from this and it's nice because it seems that you're looking at a film about nature, but it is these plastic leaf catchers and the laser cut felt.

[01:19:25] So these elements, performance better worked out, maybe film. I want to be part of these rooms. And I would love to, to have the audience. Yeah. To have possibilities to let them stay in there like I did in Boijmans, that you can really be in the installation. Yeah.

[01:19:48] Yeah. Do you have any advice for an artist who's just starting out with installation? Or maybe do you have some great advice that someone gave you once that you've never forgotten?

[01:20:02] Yeah, I think for artists who start it's super important to to work together. Maybe also have your studio with some other artists. And maybe also to connect as a group and find opportunities for showing the work. And I also think it's nice to search for spaces where you can experiment.

[01:20:26] So it shouldn't have to be a gallery or a museum but these artists run spaces or create your own space for a month or something and invite people. I think this yeah, do it yourself mentality can also help. And from there new opportunities can come. But it starts with showing your work.

[01:20:53] Mm-hmm.

[01:20:55] This just actually reminded me, like I was thinking of all these historical sites you've installed in, I'm thinking it would be cool for young artists to take over an abandoned building and build something in there. I'm wondering, have you ever had trouble with the Fastenings?

[01:21:16] I don't know how you attach your work to the walls, but in some places it must be a challenge.

[01:21:22] Everywhere.

[01:21:23] Tell me about that.

[01:21:27] Yeah. You cannot nail in these walls. You have to use what's already there. So it's always a struggle in these buildings. I know before that it's a thing. And of course I want to hide the connections also. So it's already a kind of a struggle to do it, to hang these pieces. But in these old buildings it's really complex.

[01:21:55] Yeah. I have to bind first around pillars with soft material under it and hide that. And then on top of this, the installation comes, for example. Now in these old buildings, this is really problematic. And, but on the other end, I always find a hook or a nail popping out. And then, yeah, it, I think it was with every old building like this, or there was an old wallpaper that I shouldn't touch, you know? yeah.

[01:22:30] So what do you end up using, like fishing line or how do you touch those things? Are they heavy?

[01:22:37] Yeah, because I use so much, in fact, material's not heavy, but in these amounts, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes I start with metal wire lines on the ceiling, and from there it hangs, for example.

[01:22:52] Okay. Interesting.

[01:22:55] And then I cover that up completely. So you don't see anything of it because it has to look as if it was there.

[01:23:05] Organic. Yeah.

[01:23:06] Yeah,

[01:23:08] Tanya, what's coming up for you in the near future? What are you working on right now?

[01:23:13] yeah. I'm what I told you, I'm working on this installation with the tubes head the, for the sausages, but there's

[01:23:22] And obviously already know where it's going?

[01:23:24] Yeah, Yeah. It's for an art deco building in the north of the Netherlands. And uh, downstairs it's really art deco, but there's a new area where the installation will be, and of course, that's complex because it's a complete new piece of that building. But yeah I really want to play in there with these tubes and then have the floor full of ceramic leaves glazed, and the tufted work is on the wall, so I have an image in my head, it will grow into the building. I have a commission in which I will be working with leftover materials from the industry. So that's also, but I still have to research. And two projects in Normandy, in France in the summer.

[01:24:16] Oh wow.

[01:24:16] Yeah, yeah,

[01:24:18] Public art or?

[01:24:19] It's temporary projects. In one case it'll stay there I think for a few years, the other one is uh, for a few months. Yeah. But indeed in public buildings outside I think. I have to go there for a research visit soon.

[01:24:36] Yeah.

[01:24:37] And when's that one gonna be shown? Do you know?

[01:24:41] It's during the summer but I'm installing in May.

[01:24:45] Mm-hmm.

[01:24:46] Okay. Where can people find out more about your work? See your work in person?

[01:24:55] Yeah, that's possible for example in the Westerpark in Amsterdam, where you can see the public sculpture. And in the Centraal Museum here in Utrecht, there's a permanent installation that I made in the old staircase of the museum. It's three floors, so you can walk up, walk down and see in different perspectives the work.

[01:25:19] I have my website, Instagram and um, the upcoming shows.

[01:25:26] Yeah. Cool. Well, I will put the links to those so people can go and easily find you and follow you.

[01:25:34] Thank you.

[01:25:36] Thank you again, Tanya. It's been a pleasure. Your process is very interesting and I think people will love hearing about it.

[01:25:45] Thank you so much and thank you for inviting me and I wish you also a lot of success with your work.

[01:25:51] Oh, thank you.

[01:25:52] Yeah, yeah. It was very nice to see it and also to hear the other artists about their work. Yeah. I enjoy it.

[00:03:00] That was Tanja Smeets based in Utrecht in the Netherlands. You can find out more about her work on her website TanjaSmeets.nl and follow her on Instagram @studiotanjasmeets.

[00:03:15] If you're in the Netherlands, you can see her permanent installations in person at the Centraal Museum in Utrecht and in Westerpark, Amsterdam.

[00:03:26] And mark your calendars, Tanja has a major solo show opening on the 11th of April, 2026 at the Utrecht in Leeuwarden, with a new publication and film about her work. You can also order the publication Under The Pavement The Roots Are Whirling by emailing studiotanjasmeets@gmail.com after the opening on April 11th.

[00:03:53] Links to those as well as everyone mentioned in this episode are in the show notes and on our website, installationartpodcast.com.

[00:04:03] If you'd like to stay in the loop and get notified whenever a new episode drops, sign up for our newsletter at installationartpodcast.com and make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening.

[00:04:17] It turns out the majority of our return listeners aren't following the podcast and subscribing is by far the easiest way to support the show. Thank you for listening and for subscribing, and until next time,

[01:26:10] That was Tanja Smeets based in Utrecht in the Netherlands. You can find out more about her work on her website TanjaSmeets.nl and follow her on Instagram @studiotanjasmeets.

[01:26:25] If you're in the Netherlands, you can see her permanent installations in person at the Centraal Museum in Utrecht and in Westerpark, Amsterdam.

[01:26:36] And mark your calendars, Tanja has a major solo show opening on the 11th of April, 2026 at the Utrecht in Leeuwarden, with a new publication and film about her work. You can also order the publication Under The Pavement The Roots Are Whirling by emailing studiotanjasmeets@gmail.com after the opening on April 11th.

[01:27:03] Links to those as well as everyone mentioned in this episode are in the show notes and on our website, installationartpodcast.com.

[01:27:13] I need some feedback. So let's make a little mid-season questionnaire for my listeners. Please go in the show notes and find the link and fill it out. I would really, really appreciate it. also send me a voice message. it would super duper totally make my day.

If you'd like to stay in the loop and get notified whenever a new episode drops, sign up for our newsletter at installationartpodcast.com and make sure you're subscribed wherever you're listening.

It turns out the majority of our return listeners aren't following the podcast and subscribing is by far the easiest way to support the show. Thank you for listening and for subscribing, and until next time.