This series deals with themes of violence, loss of life, grief, trauma and mental health. The content may not be suitable for younger listeners. Kia ora I'm Alex Mason.

And I'm Mitchell Alexander. Welcome to Season One of Unclassified, a series where we bring you firsthand tales from those who served during New Zealand's 20 year deployment to Afghanistan.

Today, we're joined by Major General John Boswell to talk about the overall contribution of the New Zealand Army to Afghanistan, the impact of losing a soldier on operations and leadership in a crisis. In the wake of the 911 terror attacks, American led forces swept the Taliban from power in Afghanistan. The first rotation of the New Zealand Provincial Reconstruction Team deployed to the Central Asian country in 2003, to help with the rebuild, a commitment that lasted more than two decades.

In April 2010 Major General John Boswell deployed as the senior national officer and commanding officer of the New Zealand provincial reconstruction team known as CRIB 16. During that deployment, Lieutenant Tim O'Donnell was killed in action, the first Kiwi combat fatality in Afghanistan. Major General Boswell went on to receive the Distinguished Service Decoration in recognition of his service and Afghanistan, and was appointed Chief of the New Zealand Army in September 2018.

Thank you for joining us, John. Can you take us back to 2010 and the moment when you learned that a Kiwi soldier had been killed in an ambush in Bamiyan Province, talk us through what happened.

Guest: Major General John Boswell 01:52

So it was late afternoon on the on the third of August, I was in the gym. At the time, I heard an escalation of announcements on the PR system that we had at the base. The call went out for the commander of the Quick Response Force the call went out for medical advice. And for some US military experience that we had located at the base. And then sometime after that matter of minutes, a soldier came to the gym and requested that I get to the command post, my presence was required. On arrival at the command post, that became obvious very quickly that one of our patrols was in contact with the Taliban. And the firefight was ongoing. Communications was intermittent, at that time, and our satellite systems weren't working as effectively as we needed them to. So it took us it took us a little bit of time to both get good communications and to confirm the location of the patrol. And once we had done that, it became apparent that we had suffered casualties, and one of our patrol members had been killed. About 10 minutes later, it became known that that was Tim.

What was the atmosphere like in the control room when you're dealing with the volatile developing situation and some of the technology not working in the way that you need it to?

So we had rehearsed many times the processes that we go through should one of our patrols come into contact with the Taliban. When we did our handover with the previous PRT CRIB 15, a contact actually occurred during that handover. And whilst CRIB 15, managed all aspects of that contact, that was a great opportunity for our senior staff members to observe the processes associated with operating when one of your forces was in contact, the headquarters procedures in particular, that allowed them to better understand the resources that were available, should we come into contact with the Taliban, the different assets that the US in particular had available, that we could call on and the types of contingencies that you would require to put in place in the event of being involved in a contact with the enemy. So we'd rehearsed it, we'd actually been alongside another force element whilst they'd gone through the process. So we had pretty good procedures in place when this attack took place on the third of August. The team kicked into action in a way that I would have expected them to and I was incredibly proud of. They went through the procedures they looked at the support was available, they did everything they possibly could to enhance situational awareness when they were confronted with issues like communications or satellite challenges. They very quickly looked to work arounds and the answer to the satellite challenge was not to continue to try and get a fix on the location with the resources that we had inside the command post but to park a vehicle alongside the command post that also had a system inside it and we could confirm it on that, so incredibly proud of the way that the team responded not only to the contact itself, but the curveballs that were thrown at them at the time.

And going back to that moment, that initial moment when you did find out that it was Tim, what went through your mind?

There was an instant "Oh fuck" and then you move on because the remainder of that patrol was still in contact, they were fighting for their lives. And we had an absolute responsibility to do everything we could to ensure that, you know, they were provided with every ounce of support, that we could, that they had every opportunity for survival, and that we were backing up behind them with all of the resources that we possibly could, at that time and effort involved, you know, what was available within the PRT in terms of a quick response force, what medical personnel, we might need to get out on site, any other assets that might be required for battlefield clearance and IEDs, and things like that. It also required us to get in contact with ISAF forces, the Americans in particular, ensure that they understood the circumstance that they had as much situational awareness as we possibly could provide them. And that the resources that we might call on were either already in the air and on their way. And fortunately, fast air was, well, fighter jets were very quickly over the top that the helicopter evacuation processes were in place. And that the medical facilities at the receiving end were on standby ready to receive any of our casualties. So there was a range of immediate actions there that take place. It's all part of what we'd rehearsed. It's, and then just adjusting your processes and procedures to the circumstances that you presented at the time.

Yeah. And on the aftermath of that attack, and dealing with that, that lasted some time. Obviously, the weather, hampered efforts there to be able to support the patrol and the recovery. How did you deal with that level of uncertainty?

So you know, we were able to gradually improve communication. So we were able to get full situational awareness with the forces on the ground in a reasonably quick period of time. When it became apparent that they had been successful in extracting themselves from the ambush and that they were now secure. They still had three casualties that needed evacuation, quite unbelievably, for that day, which were in Bamiyan itself, the city of Bamiyan was a clear blue day, the mountains of Bamiyan were covered in cloud. And we couldn't get helicopters through to evacuate the three casualties. So the decision was made to very quickly get the quick reaction force up there to support them with the security that they needed in that area, to follow that up with a medical evacuation capability. And as quickly as we could get the three wounded back to the base camp at Bamiyan. Later that, that evening, it became apparent that it was incredibly complex on the ground, despite the fact that they were now out of contact. And in the wee hours of the other next morning, I made the decision to go up here and take control of the battlefield clearance and recovery of the Kiwi patrol on the ground who had pulled back, you know, some 15 or 20 kilometres to a nearby town, leaving on site, the vehicles that had been damaged, and Tim. So we needed to go forward and recover those vehicles, we need to go forward recover Tim, we were going into an area where there was quite clearly a threat, I was going into an area of soldiers who had just fought for their lives, in conjunction with the additional reinforcements that we've got up there. And we needed to do a battlefield clearance and we needed to recover Tim. So that's the activities that really drove us the next day in terms of a immediate response.

How do you steel yourself, when you're going into a situation like that where a soldier has been killed, others have been wounded, and it's there's still a lot of risk?

You know, be quite honest. All of your thinking goes into what is the right thing to do? And how do I make this as secure as I possibly can? What are the outcomes that I need to achieve? And how do I do that in a way that we can execute all those responsibilities in the most effective and safest possible manner. And there's absolutely no doubt about it. You know, there was a threat, a clear and present threat that we had to get our mate back.

Can you tell us about Tim? What was he like?

He was a spectacular young man. He comes from a quite magnificent family in Feilding have maintained contact with his Mum and Dad since the deployment to Afghanistan, and they are very, very special people. He was a young officer who was full of energy, full of mischief. He was incredibly brave. And he had a level of professionalism to him that was the envy of his peers. A fine young man who had a hell of a future in front of him, and sadly you know, it was it was taken away from him.

I understand that he had been awarded the Distinguished Service decoration after his actions as a platoon commander in Timor Leste, and he was only mid 20s, at the time, what was he like in terms of having him as part of that contingent and how other soldiers bonded with him?

Yeah. So you know, the area that he was operating from, we knew from the very start that that was the one area in the province of Bamiyan where there was a real threat. Tim was deliberately put up there in command, because he was the best, we knew that he would ensure that his patrol conducted itself in a manner that not only allowed them to achieve their mission, but to do so in the safest and most effective way. And he thrived on that. He wouldn't have wanted to have been anywhere else. And if I dared given him any of the other patrols to command, he would have argued from day one, that my, my answer was something different. He lived life at 100 miles an hour, he did everything at 100 miles an hour. And you know, you sometimes struggle to keep up with him. He was just special guy. What impact did his death have on the rest of the contingent and Afghanistan?

One of my most enduring memories of that time, is how in the most tragic of circumstances, those Kiwi soldiers, yes, they were, they were suffering from the grief of having lost their boss. They had just been through the absolute trauma of a of an attack on them by the Taliban. But by jingoes, they stood up to the mark, and they collected themselves and they got on with a mission that was required of them. Look we went through deliberate process with them, the vast majority of them we held back, we allowed them to, to get their thoughts together and to rationalise what they'd been through, we had a reconstitution process we had to go through in terms of bringing additional people back into that patrol to bring it up to strength that suffered four people as casualties. We had to replace some vehicles, we replace some equipment, and we had to reinstall the confidence in them, that they were good enough and that they were going into an environment which they had as much control over as they possibly could and as safely as they possibly could. So we did that deliberately are a couple of members of the patrol that we just had to put the pressure on and we had to get out and do a couple of tasks for us. And they did what was required of them as well. Incredibly fortunate at the time that the liaison officer for that patrol was a very experienced Warrant Officer, class one. And he took on the leadership of that patrol. In fact, he's still the leader of that patrol today. They had a reunion a couple of years ago. And he was superb at giving the soldiers the time that they needed, but at the same time, ensuring that they understood what was required of them and getting them back in the game and operating effectively as a patrol again, and outstanding performance by that warrant officer. And he also received the Distinguished Service Decoration, and that was in recognition of his outstanding leadership at that time.

For you personally, though, what impacts of that unfortunate event, what did that have on you? And how do you think it's changed the way that you operate as a leader?

I think of it often, that experience from Afghanistan, it reminds me of the absolute honour it is to command New Zealand soldiers. Be it on operations or here in New Zealand. And it doesn't matter if you're a Corporal, a Captain or a Chief, it's something that any of us in positions of leadership positions of responsibility should absolutely treasure. The New Zealand soldier is a quite extraordinary individual. And all of us should be very, very proud of what they do and the manner with which they represent our nation. Because when they're put in extreme circumstances, like they were the day that Tim's patrol was attacked, and then they lost their boss, they were superb. Every single one of them. Four were recognised with either gallantry awards or the DSD but every single member of that patrol stepped up to the mark that day. And you know, that's indicative of the quite outstanding people I had in the contingent I commanded in Afghanistan, its Army, Navy and Air Force, and indeed the civilian that we had, you know, stunning New Zealanders.

They attack that day and the casualties that it resulted in, did that change any operational elements of the deployment and what happened from there on?

Yeah, hugely, we knew that before we even arrived in Afghanistan that there was a threat in that area in the Northeast, and that's where we focused the vast majority of our security efforts. One of our patrols during the handover with the preceding PRT CRIB 15, they were attacked. So we knew from the very beginning that there was a clear and present threat in the Northeast that came out of the neighbouring province Baghlan. So we always conducted ourselves as though we were operating in a threat environment. We always reviewed the tactics, techniques and the procedures that we employ to ensure that they remain fit for purpose. But when they attacked us that day, and they had a major success by killing one of our patrol members and wounding three others, we knew that it was time to revisit and to adopt as stringent as we possibly could security measures. So we, you know, we we maximise the opportunity to move by night, we stayed in locations where we were doing humanitarian tasks and delivering aid for the shortest possible period, we reviewed our routines to make sure there wasn't a routine and that we weren't signalling our intent on any occasion. We reinforced the forces in that area, we always ensured that response forces were pre positioned and available should they be needed. But that's, you know, the challenge we had was that the area that we're talking about bordered Baghlan province. The Taliban were active in Baghlan and there was a number of routes that ran east west into Bamiyan Province from Bgaghlan and that they had the ability to come into our province attack us and into very quickly withdraw back to Babylon province. I had no mandate to go into Baghlan and I had to rely on coalition forces to have an effect on the enemy in that area. The challenge was that the road the main road north through Bamiyan Province, and indeed was one of the main routes for a country as a whole from the Kabul to the north, ran immediately adjacent to the border with Baghlan province. It was down in a valley, the Gandhak Valley, and about 40 kilometres of it was in country that was very easy to establish a bush and very easily to interdict forces that were travelling on the road. We could not not go along that road. So it was absolutely imperative that some how and effect was head on the enemy that was operating out of Baghlan province, I made every approach that I could to the ISAF Forces that operated in Bagglan, to undertake an operation in the area. But they were occupied to the north where there was actually a full on war being fought. And the number of insurgents that were potentially operating in Bamiyan from Baghlan wasn't a number where they could devote resources to having an effect on. And it was at that time that I reached out to our SAS, and did so requesting support, because I wasn't able to have an impact in that area, but they were mandated to operate across the entire country. Now they had to go through a due process. And I'm not gonna go into the details of Op Burnham. But they had to go through a due process whereby targets were identified, there were authorities provided, legal reviews undertaken, full approvals, and so on, and they did all of that. And then, you know, Operation Burnham took place about two to three weeks after Tim's death. And I knew that once that had gone in, and had an effect in that area on the insurgents that were operating there and had killed one my patrol and wounded three others, that we were going to be safe for the rest of our tour, they wouldn't have the capacity to come and have another crack at us. And it was really two years later, that they did have another significant attack on New Zealand forces. And that's a story for another day.

Thankfully, fatalities are a rare occurrence for New Zealand Defence Force personnel serving overseas. Prior to Afghanistan, had you been involved in critical incidences of this nature or experienced a loss like this? Or was it the first time you've encountered something like that?

Not deployed on operations, but in training accidents, yes.

And how did that prepare you if at all, for what you faced in Afghanistan?

I don't think it ever prepares you. I think it was a whole range of things that contribute to how effective or not you are as a leader. And collectively, they come together and they provide you with the capacity to respond, how you do on the day, I think back to one incident that I was involved in, when a scorpion rolled over in the training area, and we lost a soldier. And I do reflect on that day and how we responded to it. And what we got right and what we got wrong, and I reflect on the time of Tim's death and what my actions were and and the decisions I made and what I got right, what I did in a timely manner, what I could have done earlier and a couple of things I didn't do as well as I should have done. And you know that self critique is is incredibly important, and I helped, I guess, in many ways that it helps prepare you for the next time you're confronted with a circumstance like that.

So I guess just on that, do you feel that there's anything you and the contingent could have done differently to have avoided what had happened on that day?

So we had had a number of reports about the threat in that area. So we knew about the threat, and a lot of those reports came to nothing. It was unlucky, that that patrol was in that place on that day. And the death of Tim and the casualties to our soldiers occurred. Yet remember, they were doing humanitarian assistance tasks, they were delivering gabion baskets to a village who was trying to rebuild the banks of a river so that they could plant for the winter. There was nothing with that task that in any way, indicated that the Taliban were going to take advantage of them. It was just unforeseen circumstances. And we had to respond accordingly. And then, you know, subsequently event, as I said, you know, just how we undertook operations, accordingly.

You have mentioned how much you think about the loss of Tim, you've mentioned his family. How has the experience stayed with you, and the years since you were in Afghanistan, and what involvement have you had with his family in terms of yourself and them trying to process his loss?

There was some significant contact when we first got home, we were able to get the vast majority of that contingent to Feilding, were able to unveil his name on the War Memorial in the centre of Feilding, and to spend time with his family. And subsequent to that, I have maintained periodic contact. Throughout the years, we come across each other on different occasions, there's an award for Tim at Officer Cadet School, the Tim O'Donnell award, around leadership. And Mark or Mary-Anne, his mum and dad or one of the other family members will present that award annually. So you know, as I see them at that event, I've seen them at a number of reunions. And in particular, we had a reunion in Feilding on the 10th anniversary of his death with all of the Patrol members that he commanded in Afghanistan. And it was a very, very special occasion. And a lot of laughs and, and a few tears.

It must have been an amazing atmosphere to be with that group of people again,

very special people. Military service obviously carries risk. Tim was the first of 10 New Zealand soldiers who died during our Defence Force's deployment to Afghanistan. In your view, what was it that they gave their lives for? I reflect on what we got right. I reflect on on the successes we had the differences we made. Yeah, Afghanistan has now lost. But we should never lose sight of the great work that our people did during our time in that country. All of the Kiwis, soldiers, sailors and airmen, who deployed to that country did everything that was asked of them. And they did it with empathy. They did it with compassion, pride, professionalism. And we know when challenged, as Tim's patrol was challenged, they responded superbly. And all New Zealanders should take pride in

given the situation now, where the Taliban is in power after the withdrawal of the last of the allied forces from Afghanistan in 2021. There was a suggestion at that time that our Kiwi soldiers might have died in vain. What's your response to that?

I repeat everything I've just said. We did everything that was asked of us. And we did it to an incredibly high standard. And the efforts that our people went to across our three lines of efforts, governance, development, and security. For the time that we were there, it gave the people of Bamiyan Province hope and they hadn't had hope for a long time.

What lasting contribution do you think that the Defence Force made to Afghanistan? Is it that hope?

Yeah I think it is. It's an absolute tragedy how it has played out in Afghanistan. We all hope that one day the situation is rectified, and that the people of that country have a future in a way that they just don't have at the moment. And if the people of Afghanistan who are there now are able to create a view of what the future looks like, a vision of the potential of that country and the promise that it has, and if that vision is based on what they saw, and experienced as a result of their interactions with our soldiers in Bamiyan Province, then maybe, just maybe we've helped that country get to where it needs to get to go to.

John, thank you very, very much for your time today, we do really, really appreciate it. We'll end with one final reflection, having experienced what you have, if you could go back in time and impart some advice or wisdom on your younger self before deploying to Afghanistan, what would that be?

I don't know. That's a real tough one for me, I, you know, I look back and I reflect or reflect on a number of things, I reflect on just how good the New Zealand soldier is, I reflect on how good they are in good and bad circumstances, you know, when circumstances are tough, and in the face of absolute adversity and tragedy, I think about how much of an honour it is to command those soldiers. Be in at peace here in New Zealand or on operations and, you know, I would just encourage myself to do everything that you can to ensure that you give them every opportunity to not only to achieve the mission that they've been given, but to do so and in the safest and most effective way that you possibly can. Casualties are incredibly sad byproduct of what we are required to do, and the environment within which we are required to operate. You got to prepare yourself for it and ensure that should those circumstances eventuate that you've, you've got the strength and capacity both professionally and personally to lead yourself and those people that you're responsible through it. Because I do reflect on her incredibly humbling it is to lead New Zealanders at any time, on how much personal satisfaction you get from seeing your team succeed and seeing them take pride in their achievements. And I do reflect on how tough and lonely leadership can be at times, particularly in times of crisis and of tragedy.

This podcast is a production of the New Zealand Defence Force Defence Public Affairs team. We're your hosts, Alex Mason, and Mitchell Alexander. We'd like to thank our guests for sharing their stories with us.

If you need to talk to someone you'll find details for support services in the show notes. We welcome your feedback on this podcast, contact us by email podcast@nzdf.mil.nz. Haere ra.