Welcome to Snap Decisions. I'm Brian Marks.

And I'm John Young.

Thanks for joining us on this new adventure, our inaugural

First one. Here we go. Out of the gate strong.

Let's do it. All right. So, what are, what are we doing here? Uh, is what, many of you might be asking.

for both of you.

You know, myself, I'm, I'm personally fascinated by, people's individual journeys and, you know, how they got here, what choices and pivots did they control and make on their own, which ones kind of were a forestand for them. What are those snap decisions and timely decisions that people had to make along the way? And, and so, uh, John, I think that, you know, I'm looking forward to having some great conversations with people.

Same. And I, I love that you want to,, talk to those people and get those, get those interesting stories. For me, I've always been fascinated with the way, positioning happens, you know, whether it's a brand or a product or a person. And when you came to me with this podcast, uh, after we both had the conversation of, does the world really need another podcast? You know, I, I got excited with the idea of,, hearing and exposing some of the behind the scenes stories about. Just how things get positioned in the world. And I think we can line up some really interesting guests to talk about what they've done and the decisions they've made in the moment that kind of changed the course of, you know, how a brand shows up in the world. Or how a person shows up in the world. Or how they've shown up in the world.

Yeah, it's, uh, it should be fun. And, uh, we toyed with the idea of calling it, uh, what the world needs now is one more podcast, but, uh, we chose snap decisions,

Wouldn't fit on the cover art.

so let's get into snap decisions. So, uh, you know, we will be having a guest and on most episodes, and there's some episodes where, uh, it'll just be John and I, uh, going back and forth on some different topics and making our own snap decisions in the moment. Uh, so, so let's get right into it. What do you think?

Do it.

All right. So, one of the interesting things that I saw, recently, which was creating a little bit of an online stir, for marketers is a brand update that, Johnson and Johnson is making. And so, it's kind of a two headed monster here. Number one, they've created a house of brands for their consumer side. Um, and instead of calling their consumer products, Johnson and Johnson,, they launched a new brand called Kenview, um, which I, I don't know what that means.

Rolls, rolls off the tongue.

rolls right out of the tongue. And, uh, and then the, the second thing that they did is they updated their Their logo, they remove the cursive, one of the things that they were saying was that, uh, the cursive, uh, doesn't resonate with the younger audiences any longer, um, which, you know, I, I would say like, hey, uh, Superbowl, let's, uh, let's remove the Roman numerals because kids don't know, don't know Roman numerals anymore. Uh, so. Yeah,

might do that.

yeah, exactly.

I mean, they're talking about moving it to London someday in the future, which would be a terrible, terrible idea, but go ahead.

well, well, let's talk about that for a second because they would bring the Super Bowl up on a Sunday, three hours. So instead of starting at six, they would start at three.

Yeah.

You're not, you're not on board with that.

No,

What about the Saturday Super Bowl? You know, which a lot of people are clamoring for. Would you be on board with that?

I could get my head around a Saturday Super Bowl. Sure.

Okay. All right. Back to Johnson and Johnson.

Johnson and Johnson in there and there. No one can read our cursive logo anymore.

yeah, and so one of the things that they're trying to do is they're trying to go all in on the, um, the healthcare market. Uh, I think on the, on the B2B side, uh, of things. And, um, you know, I, I think that really just giving up their brand equity on the consumer side is, uh, it really makes me scratch my head a little bit. I mean, a lot of us resonate with, um, their consumer products, like, Uh, the Johnson and Johnson baby shampoo, which, you know, we all, um, bathed our kids in growing up and there's a connection there and, um, there's kind of giving that away and throwing in this shadow. Can view brand, I think is a little, um, a little bit of a head scratcher for me and and then

I, I haven't read a lot about this, but they're gonna do, uh, Ken View still has Johnson Johnson on it with the idea that they'll phase out the Johnson and Johnson brand. Correct.

that's correct. Yeah. As can view builds equity with audiences, we'll wait 150 years for that.

Yeah,

So it's really interesting to see a brand, uh, take some, some left turns like this, uh, I'm all for, for brands branching out and extending their, their reach a little bit. My question for you, John, to put you on the spot, do you think that brand marketers get caught up talking to themselves, when they walk away from the equity that's been built up over decades and decades and centuries in some cases?

Uh, yes, that happens often, but let me put it back to you. In this particular Johnson Johnson case, what do you think? Good idea? Bad idea?

It's a big risk and, you know, to trust that people will be able to, to recognize your brand more when you change it after everybody knows what you are is, uh, That's where I'm really scratching my head because in today's crowded space and environment, uh, you really, you really need to think hard about, um, taking that for granted.

Yeah. Um, and you touched on something earlier, I think it was... That's critical. Like 150 years of brand equity, that's a long time to build something. And then to pivot, to have that be the thing that's facing, if I have this correct, that's the thing they're going to have facing the business to business audience. And they're going to create a whole new brand called Kenview just for consumers. Yes, I think they, we sometimes brand marketers talk themselves into doing things. differently for the sake of doing it differently. Um, I can't imagine why they didn't flip this. So there are, what, 320 million Americans who you might want to expose to, you know, their brands, whether it's baby powder or baby shampoo or whatever else they sell, right? Easier to get those consumers, 330 million of them, to understand a new brand. Called Ken View, or I don't know what the size of the medical professional B two B market is that they're going after? I have no idea, but I'm gonna guess it's less than 320 million that are just gonna keep going with Johnson Johnson. So I, I, I don't understand why they did it that way. Why didn't they keep Johnson Johnson for the consumer side and create a brand for Ken View to a much smaller audience? 'cause the sheer investment it takes. is astronomical.

Yeah.

That's what I don't understand here.

Yeah, I mean, maybe they, they thought that, um, they got a little bit of equity out of the Johnson and Johnson name, um, on the healthcare side with the COVID stuff. Um, and wanted to kind of run with it. Um, you know, I saw some threads on social media, uh, where people are commenting on the logo change and some people were saying, uh, some people were saying the, uh, only marketers care about logo changes. Uh, but I,

some truth to that man. You can overwork a logo real easy.

yeah, well, I mean, it was kind of like. You know, nobody cares that they've changed, but, you know, being recognized is a, that's a huge thing, and, um, I, I don't know why you'd want to play with that, so.

I did see a post from, I don't remember his name, but a fairly prominent, um, graphic designer from actually, you know, someone who's expert in brand identity, uh, referred to this as the ongoing trend towards shitification of brand design, which I think is a technical term.

That's, it's in a book somewhere. Yeah. All right. Well, well, John, what do you got for me?

Alright, so I would like to talk about, something called skimpflation. Are you familiar with the term skimpflation, Brian?

I have heard of it. Yes. Tell me more.

Well, um, I've always thought of it as when companies reduce the, the, quantity, uh, or quality of a product, um, and, and, you know, it, in the end, the consumer gets less for the same amount or, um, pays more for less. Uh, apparently there is a distinction, uh, between skimflation, uh, which is reducing the quality of the product. And there's shrinkflation, which is reducing the quantity of a product. I kind of blend it together. I always thought it was kind of the same thing, but whatever. That's not what I want to share. What I want to share is, um, a few months ago, uh, I have a favorite brand of granola, right? I love this stuff. My son loves it. Uh, I always get it. I won't name the brand. Um, and granola in general is already kind of pricey. Um, so now the one I loved was, it wasn't like a designer artisanal granola. It was kind of more middle of the road, I'll call it, I'll call it mass organic, okay?

Yeah.

Uh, and a few months ago, they changed the packaging and the quantity went from, I think I wrote this down to 13. 2 ounces to 11 ounces. Uh, yeah, yeah. So they changed the, they changed the size of the package. They changed the package from a cardboard box, the traditional cereal box to now, I guess all the granola is in pouches now, plastic pouches. So, um, and the price at the same time went up. This is anecdotal, but I've been seeing probably 50 cents to a buck more for a bag. By the way, it's an organic brand, but they've clearly introduced more pa, more plastic into the mixer 'cause it's a thicker, you know, pack plastic package. So, um, you know, it kind of pissed me off and, obviously there've been some drivers, some real drivers of this stuff, right? You've got there, you know, in the Covid era there's supply chain issues, logistics issues. Um, we all experienced that, uh, and I think we kind of got used to all right, and stuff might not be as good as it used to be or whatever, I recently had to, uh, get an air conditioner, repaired. And the guy said it was a COVID part that went, like a tiny little, you know, 3 transistor or something. And he referred to it as a COVID part, as if that was a thing, and I think it might be. Um, alright, so there's that, and then there's inflation, right? We've all been hearing about inflation. I believe that a lot of these consumer packaged goods companies are using both of those things and you have three years of experience with those things to give us less product or fit your product. I'll call that BSflation. And I'd love to have an expert to verify this. I'd love to do a whole podcast on this topic. But my take is it's rampant and happening with pretty much every single everyday consumer packaged good product line out there. So, Brian, is this grumpy old man syndrome that I've got or are CPG companies taking advantage of us on a kind of wide scale now?

Well, let's be honest. Uh, you, you are a grumpy old man, but, um,

Guilty as

however, however, in this case, I think you're 100 percent right. I mean, um, I think people are definitely taking advantage of. The fact that they can get away with that right now, uh, in the Covid era.

Yeah,

It's, it's happening more and more. And, I, I think that when you find brands that, that, that stay true to who they are and, and don't take advantage of their customers, I mean, I think those people will be rewarded more and more. But I, I, I think everywhere you're looking right now that that kind of thing is happening and, um, uh,

any, any examples that you've seen like anything in your, your daily life that you're like, Oh, what the hell is that?

You know, the only relatable thing that pops in my mind at first is, um, and, you know, I don't know that this hasn't made the product worse, but, uh, in the alcohol industry, they're selling four packs of these, um, cocktail drinks, you know, and

Four packs of beer that now are more expensive than the six pack used to be. Also.

yeah, and so, like, that's just, I feel like they're trying to get every cent out of this and, um, and yes, I need more than one four pack, and, uh, it's driving me nuts,

I saw a four pack. I saw a four pack of really good beer. It's a really good beer from a local brewery. 12 ounce cans, four pack for 18 bucks. And I'm like, I can go to a bar and spend that much on a beer. What's going on?

Well, that's I've been doing that equation too. And so it's really interesting when you're starting to pay as much as the liquor store as you could to go down the street. Um, and, um, yeah, so I think that they are finding ways to take advantage. Um, and, you know, with the summer drinks, the summer cocktail drinks, um, they just keep getting pricier and pricier. And I feel like the going rate on some of these are just getting higher and higher. So I don't know where that ends, but I'm seeing it there. The other the other

I think, and I think it's not just inflation, and I think it's not just kind of like COVID stuff, I think it's now, it's opportunistic.

Yeah, and so there's a, there's like, I think people feel like there's a license to be able to go and do it right now, and, uh, until people like us call them on it.

And, well, so, right, so how do we, how do we prove this, how do we call them on it, and what are we gonna do?

Well, it's like the cost of a, sporting event ticket. I mean, the only way, or the, the cost of a drink at a, at a stadium, I mean, the only way this stops is if you stop buying the thing, and consumers have shown that they will not.

yeah, yeah,

you go into a different granola brand.

Uh, oh, instantly.

You did.

Oh, a hundred percent. So I, I

More power to you.

Like I'll go back once in a while if, if they do have a little bit of a discount, which by the way, I think the sales on that brand are happening less and less often too. When I see it, I'll do it. I still like it, but they, they lost me as the, you know, the weekly shopper, right? I would get, I'll get a couple of boxes of stuff a week, probably. And that's not happening anymore.

The thing that gets me about this one is the paying more for less,

cereal is rampant for this. Like if you look at, and, and I love my, my local grocery store has an app that lets you, you know, if you look for a specific, I'm gonna say cereal, right? Pick a brand, it'll give you like 15 different sizes. And unlike in the store where it's kind of harder, it's very clear to see the price per ounce, same cereal, different package sizes, the price per ounce is all over the map. So they're clearly like doing some family size, super size, fun size, idiot size, whatever, changing the packaging on a regular basis to kind of keep us on our heels and occasionally buying the one that's way higher on a unit price. Good Lord. All right. I'm done now. Rant, rant over.

Well, the streaming services are doing this to, you know, uh, Netflix, I swear every, every quarter that I keep raising their price and, you know, they're not making as much content as they used to. And so, I know that they've built such an audience now that that people feel like they can't get rid of it. But, um, they're, they're close to pricing themselves out. And, um, so,

Remember when the argument for the streamers was, oh man, this cable company keeps, they keep raising your rates.

yeah,

uh, yeah, we're, we're, we're living it now in the streamers for sure.

yeah. And so. It'll be interesting to see where, where that goes because, um, you know, they, they just keep jacking it up and now they're looking, you know, they have lower tiers now with ads and, uh, you know, they're kind of taking some of the value out that they brought in and so we'll see what happens, but it's happening everywhere, which is, um, uh, it's a little disappointing.

All right. Well, I would like to find an expert who could help us figure out how to, how to measure it, how to evaluate it, how to stay away from it, and maybe how to, you know, start a movement to combat it.

Yeah, let's keep talking about it.

let's make that happen.

All right, well, um, are, uh, we want to introduce a new segment called.

Everything's a new segment for us right now. This is our first episode.

it's all a new segment. Uh, and, and so in the hopes of bringing on great guests as we move forward, we are, uh, calling this segment, Dear Hopelessly Unattainable Guest. And, uh, this

clear, to be clear, we do have some good guests lined up.

Yes. Yes. These are moonshots, though. You know, this, uh, this could be, uh, a letter to Oprah,

Oh god, you took mine!

Oh, yeah

No, I'm kidding. Well, maybe not. But go ahead, who are you after?

So, um my my first uh Dear hopelessly unattainable guest is Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple. You might've heard of him, you know, he is,

yeah, yeah, that name rings a bell.

I feel like, I feel like he would fit in great on, on an episode of snap decisions

He's made, he's made a lot of snap decisions since taking over.

a little bit.

Yeah.

Yeah. So why not bring him in for a fireside chat?

Dear Tim Cook. All right.

Cook. All

it, Brian. What's your, what's your, what's your pitch?

So, uh, so let's get into that. So, uh, this is my letter to Tim Cook to, to join us on a future episode. Dear Tim Cook, congratulations on the launch and success of the iPhone 15. As usual, Apple finds a way to move the mobile industry forward with innovative technology, including the new titanium frame, the removal of the mute button and USB C charging. Kudos. You are the type of leader that demonstrates how to navigate change user behaviors. And how to take the right risks as such my podcast partner, John Young and myself cordially invite you to our new series, snap decisions. A melting pot of marketing conversation that talks about the choices that you have made that have created your path to get to today. We'd be delighted to have you as our guest. You can expect to reach dozens and further help you get the word out about your amazing products. It would be an honor to hear about your background at IBM and Compaq. And also hear about the great Steve Jobs and how he got you to Apple. How have you made your own mark and gotten out of your comfort zone to lead the biggest company in the world? What are your biggest marketing challenges? How does a brand like Apple stay ahead of consumers and continue to find ways to provide tools and technology they so desire? What is your favorite color? All this and more. We're fascinated by your story and want to talk. Please join us, Tim. You won't regret it. Sincerely, the Snap Decisions team. What do you think? You think he's gonna come on?

Here, Brian Marks. Thank you so much for reaching out to speak to our CEO, Tim Cook.

Can't reply.

Dot, dot, dot. Uh, no, I love it. Uh, I, I think, you know, long, I'm not sure how that's going to fit into a tweet that might capture his attention or get some, uh, get some, get some pickup. But hey, uh, I love the long form letter. I'm a big fan of long form copy when done well. So, um, yeah, let's send that off.

Yeah, I think, uh, I think Tim would be, just to be able to show that we care about him and, uh, provide some better context there. And so just, you know, tweeting at him. Um, so we'll see. Maybe, maybe he'll be on, uh, on in the future.

Okay, cool. Um, is this a good time for me to, uh, tee up and, and promote our, our actual first guest at our next podcast?

Sure. Go for

Cool. Um, I'm not gonna say a whole lot, but I will just tease that. Um, we are going to be interviewing the man I consider to be the biological father of Ted Lasso.

it. Hmm. That sounds interesting.

Yeah, I'm gonna leave it at that. That's a tease.

Okay.

So, but we've, we've got that person joining us.

Can't wait to talk to him.

We have, have to ask him about some snap decisions.

That will be interesting. All

All right. Well, that was your mission, right? To have interesting people and ask them to tell us about their stories and the pivots they've made. So we'll, uh, we'll fire that up with Ted Lasso's biological father.

Believe,

Believe.

believe it. All right. Well, uh, thanks for joining us on the first episode of snap decisions, and we hope to see you next time.

Yeah. Thank you. And Brian, thank you for getting us going. You're the man.

Thanks for joining me.

Bye.

Bye.