Well, hello and welcome to the Ecommerce Podcast

with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. Now, this is

a show all about helping you deliver Ecommerce.

Wow. And to help us do just that, we've got a

special guest, someone who has been on the show

before, Raul Galleria from Referral Candy. Now,

Raul was on the podcast in 2021. We talked about

referral marketing and if you've listened to that

episode, you'll remember how good it was. So I'm

really, really looking forward to this

conversation and getting going again. Raul

reached out to me a few weeks ago and said, matt,

I've got some really interesting stuff. Can we

chat about it? And I'm like, of course we can. Of

course we can. And before we get into it, let me

just say very warm welcome to you. Especially if

this is your first time with us on the Ecommerce

podcast, It' great to meet you. Do reach out to

me on social media, Edmundson. You'll find me on

LinkedIn, on Instagram. It'd be great to connect.

Let me know what you're doing, Let me know about

your business. I was just talking to a chap

called Dylan earlier on today. Dylan, if you're

listening, hope you're doing well. And we were

chatting about his ecom business and he said to

me he found the podcast in August, right. And

bearing in mind the time of recording, this is

October and he's already caught up. Right. And

we've been on air five years. That's some going,

not going to lie, some going. And I just have to

apologize for the sheer amount of my voice in

that time. But anyway, do reach out. Be great to

hear from you, great to connect with you and of

course, if you are a regular to the show, a warm

welcome back. Now, let's talk about Raul. He is

the chief advocate at Referral Candy, which is

the go to app for E commerce brands looking to

grow through customer referral programs. He has

got over 10 years of experience. He's been a

Referral candy a wee while, as we say, which has

empowered 30,000 plus brands to turn their

customers into a marketing force. Love that

phrase. For the past five years, Raul has led

partnership efforts connecting with marketing

agencies, media and tech companies to boost

growth without spending on ads. So, Raul, welcome

to the show, man. Great to have you back. How are

you doing today, good sir?

I'm doing pretty good. Thanks for having me again.

Oh, no worries. Always great to have you back on

the show, man. Always great to talk to you. We

were talking before we hit the record button I'm

sort of slightly envious of the weather that you

have where you are versus the weather that we

have where I am. You need air conditioning, I

need a heater. And it's amazing because we're

only a few hours apart how just a few degrees on

the old equator changes everything. But, you

know, there it is. So it's been what we were

saying. In fact we looked at the date. It was

sometime late, late September, wasn't it? When

you're on the show in 21, which is, it's almost

like you said, the three year anniversary.

Yep.

So what's been going on the last three years?

A lot. Yeah, we talked end of 2021, which we were

pretty much still at the peak of kind of like

Covid fuel Ecommerce growth. You know, 2021 was

still a year in which companies were getting, you

know, crazy amounts of funding. Everyone in the

space was, you know, growing with again just like

cheap borrowing lots of money available for, for

funding for DTC brands. So things were going

pretty well for everybody, you could say in the

Ecommerce world. 2022, we started to see a little

bit of a, kind of like, you know, darker clouds

in the horizon and that kind of materialized in

2023, I think, in which I was just talking to a

few people a couple weeks ago about it and you

know, I was saying how some brands in 2023 said

that, you know, it was almost a flat year. And

some of them said actually flat year being a flat

year was almost like the, the positive scenario,

you know, for, for a lot of brands, like if you

were just flat on 2023, you know, you could, you

know, pat yourself in the back and you know, it's

like, good job. Right? You kind of, you made it.

That being said, we had a lot of growth around

the Black Friday and Cyber Monday mark last year.

A lot of people say that it was, you know, fueled

by, you know, kind of like buy now, pay later

type of debt, that we don't know what's going to

happen in the future. But I mean the numbers are

there and you know, we're entering again since

October 7th. Today we're heading into Black

Friday Cyber Monday fairly soon. Brands are

getting ready for that and there's always this,

you know, there's like this big question of

what's going to happen. It's going to be bigger

than last year. How are the US Elections going to

play out in all this? So yeah, one of the

initiatives that we put together kind of because

of all these unknowns that A lot of agencies are

having. We put together this confidence report to

try to shine some light on at least what other

people are thinking and kind of like, what's the

mood around Ecommerce agencies on a monthly basis.

Great. So just. It says here that the confidence

report involves gathering data from around 100

agencies on a monthly basis. You guys are

creating therefore a confidence index, which I

just, I think is such a great phrase, and

tracking trends in Ecommerce, such as how brands

are spending on marketing, hiring agencies,

versus in house, and much more. So you've been

putting this confidence report together, which I

really like the idea of, by the way. Thank you.

The agencies that you're talking to, are they all

marketing agencies? Are they a variety of

agencies? What kind of agencies are we talking to

here?

One thing that they all have in common is that

they are Ecommerce focused. So I would say the

majority of them are marketing agencies because

there's a bunch of questions that are about

marketing budgets. And so obviously they're the

ones that I would say the vast majority of them

have touched kind of marketing with their

clients. Probably kind of like, I would say the

main difference between all these agencies is how

they attract customers. So I would say there's

like two big groups of agencies, one of them that

are just like pure, you know, marketing ads type

of companies that focus on that or SEO, you know,

kind of type of thing. But like they focus just

100% on marketing. And then the agencies that do

like website builds or migrations or redesigns

and then kind of keep that customer on retainer,

typically with some other types of services that

may include marketing or just maintenance or

whatnot. But yeah, the one thing that they all

have in common is that they're almost 100%

focused on Ecommerce.

Yeah. Which is great. And are they worldwide or

are they just focused in one particular area?

Yeah, I don't have the numbers for me right now,

but I think it's like 50% US and Canada and then

like, I think like 30% Europe and then the rest

between Australia and Asia, Latin America. So I

mean, it's kind of leaning a little more heavily

on Europe and the US But I'm actually in the

process right now kind of getting more agencies

from Australia as well. So we can get kind of

that side of the world as well. But yeah, I'm

trying to keep it as open as possible.

Fantastic. And so your job then is you're growing

this, you're getting more agencies on board. Just

a quick pled. Then if you're listening to the

show and you're an Ecommerce agency, then do

reach out to Raul. How do they get hold of you?

Yeah, so I mean, they can find me on Twitter. I

think my ad is raulgalera D. Or just search for

roller referral candy. You'll find it. Otherwise,

on our website we have the report and we have

like a little call to action where you can, you

know, if you want to be a partner agency, you can

submit and says referralcounty.com EACI cool.

EACI.

Yeah.

We will of course link today in the show notes as

well, which you can get along for free at the

website ecommercepodcast.net and of course, if

you're listening to this on your favorite podcast

app, they'll be on that as well. Just scroll down

and they'll be there and just click the links

through to Raul. But so let's jump into it then.

You know, you've got this confidence report.

You're talking to e commerce agencies all over

the world, all of whom Ecommerce commerce as

clients, and they can see what their clients are

doing, where they're spending and so on and so

forth. At the time of recording, it's October.

We've got Black Friday Cyber Monday coming up. Is

that a big deal right now for agencies?

Yeah. And so I would say that that is probably

what is driving most of the confidence in

Ecommerce right now. Okay. So when we started the

report last year, the first month that we did

the, the first report that we put out was in

January 2024. So we started doing research on. In

December. And you know, with that, we, you know,

we're pretty much asking agencies that were, you

know, kind of in the middle of the hangover after

the Black Friday Cyber Monday and holiday kind of

season sales from last year. So confidence, I

mean, actually that was the highest level of

confidence that we've registered since, since

January. It's been, you know, going downhill

pretty much up until like June. It's when it

started to pick up again. July, August, September

have been going up, but still in the second kind

of highest month in terms of confidence has been

this month. I mean, September, but still it's

nowhere close to what we register in January. So

I have the feeling that, you know, it's kind of.

It's getting. Well, I guess we'll see. You know,

obviously if we continue doing this next year,

we'll be able to compare notes, you know, one

year versus other. But it seem to me that it's,

it's fairly seasonal in sense of like you know,

kind of like summer months, obviously slower and

like everybody's kind of always looking forward

to that. You know, black friends have Monday type

of, type of event that kind of defines the year.

And so. And again, we were talking about it

earlier where in the last year, which was for a

lot of brands was flat at best. They were looking

forward to that Black Friday Monday event. To

just see. Yeah, to see, like, okay, let's just,

let's just close the year. Like, let's just see

if it was really a flat year. It was positive,

negative, like, you know, so. But, you know, we

can't really say anything about 2023 until we hit

mark. Right. And so it looks like it's pretty

much the same happening this year. So 2023 all

over again, really.

So people are finding it quite flat at the moment.

So I would say, I mean, it's, I mean, like 2023

all over again when it comes to that excitement

about Black Friday and summer Monday. Like, it's,

it's. I don't, I don't think it's been that flat

of a year, but there has been seasonality and

again, it's not necessarily like a. From what.

Again, from what I've seen on the, on the

responses that have gone from agencies, it hasn't

been that kind of sustained growth that you're

kind of looking forward to.

Yeah, that's interesting is if I was to think

about my own experience, I'd say 2024 was

definitely better than 2023. Yeah. Certainly in

our online businesses, in our agencies and, you

know, the people that we partner with and so on

and so forth, this year seems to have been. It's

not true for everybody, obviously, but on the

whole it sort of feels slightly better. You've

got a few key events coming up at the moment,

which I think is really interesting. In the uk,

we've got the October budget. So this is where

the government decides how they're going to try

and fill a big 20 billion pound tax missing hole.

So everyone's slightly concerned about that, but

at the same time, not. Obviously, we've got Black

Friday Cyber Monday, which people are building up

for. So I do wonder if retail sales have slowed

with the new government and everyone's going to

wait to see what happens and then obviously we've

got Black Friday Cyber Monday, you mentioned it

earlier. We've got the US Presidential elections

coming up on the other side of the pond. What's

going to happen? Who knows? It's a fascinating

one. Do you think? Are we seeing events like this

actually affect confidence or is it just me?

Because Ecommerce business owners, when sales get

down we obviously want to understand why and

sometimes we try and attribute it, you know, oh

well, the wind was going northwest rather than

southwest. You know we, yeah. Am I being crazy or

is there something in this across the board?

So it's, you know, it's obviously in hindsight we

always try to look for answers to events that you

know, may or may not be correlated but something

that is. So I, that's, that's actually one of the

questions that we asked in the, in the latest

report was about US Elections. So do you think

it's going to have a positive, negative or

neutral impact on Ecommerce sales in Q4? And you

know I was expecting to just, you know we ask

agencies to rate it, you know, from, from 0 to

10. So you know, between 0 and 4 is negative, 5

is neutral, 6 to 10 is positive. I was expecting

fives all across the board. Like people just

like, you know, like, you know, I was expecting

that kind of neutral answer. No, I was, it was

actually mostly negative. So the majority of the

agencies responded that they are expecting some

sort of negative impact on Ecommerce sales. So

you know it's interesting we're going to, we're

going to get to publish another report right

before the, the US elections. So because we're,

we're planning, we're going to start planning the

October issue now and we're going to publish it

before November 5th. So it's, it's kind of

interesting if like the trend continues or if

it's kind of like a one time thing when you ask

people for the first time. But, but yeah. So now

answering your question, will they be right about

it? I guess, you know, we'll find out. Yeah,

we'll find out soon enough.

Did they give you any indication as to why they

were negative in their opinion?

So you know it's, it's, I think it's one of the

kind of keywords that I got the, you know, most

like most. One of the most common keywords that

we got from, from some of the responses and the

quotes that we got were, was uncertainty in

general. And so, and I'm tying that with other

conversations that I've had throughout the year

with other agencies. This is a theory that's,

that's going around that I, you know, I, I think

it makes sense because I've heard it from several

people and is that whenever there's like a major

event that takes people away from social media

platforms in which in which they're exposed to

ads. Yeah. Then Ecommerce sales go down. Meaning

that, you know, one example that. A couple

examples that I've kind of gathered throughout

the year and I've had some agencies kind of

confirm that that happened. So, you know, we all

remember. I think it was like, I think it was

like last year, right? The Titanic submarine type

of thing.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Apparently there was a trial

about that recently, wasn't there?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So. But that was in the news

for like, like three, four days. Like two. I

don't remember. But apparently during those few

days in which, you know, we were looking for the

submarine, everybody was so focused on that or

like that was driving so much of the attention

that, you know, brands were spending less money

on ads and so there were less conversions. At

first, I found that kind of hard to believe, but

I had the same feedback from multiple agencies

and I, you know, and to be honest with you, that

was one of the conversations that got me into,

you know, starting a rapport like this because I

was like, this is really interesting. And these

are, this is stuff that, I mean, I only found out

because I was, you know, kind of having a beer

with one of these agency owner, otherwise I

wouldn't have been able to, you know, kind of get

that kind of data. And then, you know, got me

thinking, like, okay, let's. There's got to be a

way of verifying this and so, and so and tying

it, tying that with US elections. So, you know,

also during, during the World cup again, middle

of the summer World cup, like, apparently sales

in Europe were a little bit lower because people

were paying more attention to the TV down on, you

know, on social media, Instagram or Facebook or

whatnot. And so it seems like it might be the

same thing happening for. For the US Elections.

Maybe we're not we. But like in the US they're

spending more time kind of watching tv, like

maybe debates, you know, not not only candidates

debates, but like political debates on tv, you

know, checking Twitter to see, you know, what

candidates saying what. So that's also something

that I'm getting is I might be driving that kind

of. And there's a little bit of fear too. So I

feel like you are being a little. Just, you know.

Yeah. Kind of maybe afraid of spending money

until we figure out what's going on. I don't

know. But it's. It's definitely that kind of

uncertainty. It's probably the main word that's

been thrown right now.

And it's a really interesting word, isn't it?

Uncertainty. Because you're right, I think when

we are uncertain as people, we tend to sort of

retreat into ourselves a little bit, don't we?

And so we spend less, we go out less, we do less

maybe of certain things like eat out or whatever.

Yep. And, and whilst it's interesting, you talk

about how the Titanic submarine resulted in lower

sales for some people, because it's the most

extraordinary sort of event, isn't it? And you

can you kind of go, well, it, maybe you've only

had like a very small percentage, but it actually

had some kind of impact which fascinate,

fascinates me. So you've got, you've got

uncertainty, but plus you've also got

distraction, haven't you? So you've got the

distract. And I mean, let's face it, you know,

the, the drama without getting political enough

and, you know, offending my US cousins, the drama

around the US election is, is unbelievably

addictive and, and serves as a huge distraction,

I think, in, in many things, you know, and I, I

just, I find the whole thing absolutely

fascinating in so many ways. But you're right, my

attention is there, plus my level of uncertainty.

Certainly in the uk, with what's going to happen

in the October budget, you're kind of like, well,

geez, these world events are actually having an

impact on me. So I can see how they would be

impacting a whole bunch of people, which has a,

has an effect. I don't know if you've got any

insights on this then Roll. I mean, how would

you, how would you counsel somebody who is

running an Ecommerce business right now? How do

you market well in times of uncertainty and

distraction like this? Because there's obviously

things that we can do when things are going okay,

but actually understanding the sign of the times

for want of a better expression and doing

something well in that time, well, that's a

different skill set in many ways, isn't it? And

so I'm kind of curious, is there any insight on

how to manage this?

I mean, I would say, and probably saying this

because it's the type of marketing that we do at

Referral Candy, but at the end of the day, brands

that work really well are those that have a

community around them. And it, you know, it

doesn't necessarily have to be a physical

community. And by physical, I don't mean like in

person and I also mean like, you know, like a,

like a Reddit, you know, like a subreddit or like

a Facebook group or anything like that. It's

literally a community of like, okay, you've been

able to identify a group of customers that

probably even before they bought from your brand,

they identify with you. And so you know, you can

use, you can use ads to get in front of those

people. I mean you can get really good at ads

targeting and figure out ways that you can again,

like, okay, these people fit this criteria

because they have these catch different, you

know, categories and they check all these boxes.

I want to get in front of them. Yeah, but at the

same time it's kind of creating that word of

mouth. And so you know, when you have a product

that it's not necessarily generic because, and I

don't mean like the product itself but like the

way that you're selling it to people and the way

that you're kind of like framing because you

know, you can sell T shirts but you can, you can

sell a million different types of T shirts to a

million different type of people and you know,

make them see it and realize, okay, that's,

that's mine. That's, you know, that's exactly me.

Like I, you know, I definitely need this. Right.

And so again, when you have, it all comes down to

product market fit. Right? So when you have

product market fit to the point that you, you're

able to just show your customers that you have

the product that they have been looking, looking

for even before they knew that they were looking

for it, you're gonna be able to generate word of

mouth around it. And yeah, and so you know, your

customers are going to talk to other people that

are going to start, they're going to start

posting on, posting on social media, they're

going to start living reviews, they're going to

start generating all these, you know, user

generated content that you can then leverage on

other, on other platforms. So you know, at the

end of the day, obviously ads are important and

you know, obviously a lot of the messaging that

we put out on referral candy is, you know, you

don't, don't, don't, don't waste your time on,

waste your money on ads. But you need ads. But

it's all about like get the most out of it. So

once don't just spend money on acquiring a

customer and then kind of forget about it. That

customer can become your salesperson.

Yeah.

Make sure that after they buy they're so happy

and they're so satisfied with your product that

they're ready to tell their friends about it. And

even on top of that you're, you're, you know,

coming up with a Some sort of like referral

structure that makes it even bigger of a no

brainer for them to refer. So yeah, that, and

that's kind of like the long term type of

marketing plan that you want to have.

Yeah, that. Powerful stuff. Powerful stuff. I

like this because I mean in times of uncertainty,

in times of distraction, you've got to stand out

and you've got to give people a compelling

reason. Right. And I think you can't be beige,

you can't be the same as everybody else. You have

got to stand out. So having, I love this, having

a community is a great idea. What that means for

you and your business is obviously very

interesting and very different to everybody else.

But focusing in on the community and focusing on

an expand, delivering an experience that you

know, just delivers. Wow. As we like to say on

the Ecommerce podcast, deliver. Well, I think are

always very sound old school marketing tactics

and principles. And I think you're right. I think

great ideas, you know, in times of uncertainty

and distraction. So what else has come out from

this research then? I mean what else has

surprised you?

So and the latest report, one of the, one of the

findings that I found more interesting is how

brands. So you know, the report is about

Ecommerce agencies, but at the end of the day

their behavior depends on their customers, which

are brands. And so you know, by asking agencies

in extension, we're getting data points from

hundreds of other merchants. Right. So the

picture gets really interesting because you're

again kind of like using agencies as a proxy, you

can estimate how the rest of the Ecommerce world

is doing, how brands are doing. And so one thing

that I found really interesting in this last

particular report is that so we always ask

agencies what's if they've noticed any changes in

terms of prices, price sensitivity. So when you

talk to customers about, you know, renewing your

contract or negotiating retainers, whether it's a

new customer or an existing customer or

negotiating new services or whatever it is, how

sensitive are these customers to these price

changes? And that the next question that we ask

is do you see brands more likely to hire in house

or to outsource to agencies? And so in the latest

report we got a spike in price sensitivity. So it

turns out that, you know, somewhere between

August, September, brands got more, more

sensitive to price. So more sensitive to price

changes. You know, it makes sense. They, you

know, everybody's looking after their costs right

now because of, you know, inflation. Costs are

going up and so you want to keep everything under

control. You're probably your CFO is, you know,

probably questioning every single line in the

budget, like, do we really need this? Like what's

discharged? They recognize this. So, you know,

it's happening in all across the board. And so

they, they did notice a spike in price

sensitivity, which you would think, okay, well

then, you know, that probably means that, that

brands are going to hire more in house. Like

they're, they're spending less money on agencies.

You know, if they're, if they're getting, you

know, turned off by some of the quotes that are

getting, that probably means that they're going

down a different route. But when we ask that

question about whether brands are going in house

or outsourcing, we, we got a vast majority of

agencies that saying that brands are outsourcing,

that they're more likely to outsource than to go

in house. So it's, it's kind of like a paradox,

right? Like, so, yeah, agencies are getting more

exp. In the eyes of brands, but brands are still

going after them. And I think, and the

explanation that I, that I got, which again it's,

it's just, it's my own explanation, I don't know

if it's, if it's correct, is that at the end of

the day, hiring an agency has a set of

intangibles for, for brands that make it more

attractive than hire an employee or hiring a team

in house. When you're hiring an agency, you're

not only getting access to their, you know, their

skills and their team and you know, and whatnot,

you're getting access to their creative data and

collective knowledge of all the brands they work

with. So you, as a CMO of an Ecommerce brand, you

have access to one data point, maybe a couple if

you have, you know, people in the industry that

you talk to. But when you're working with an

agency and you know, you're having a, a weird

month or weird week, you can say, hey, is this

normal? And they can say, oh yeah, all of the

other brands in your vertical are, you know, kind

of seeing the same thing. Or like, hey, we're

actually seeing some trends right now. Like, you

know, you can have access to that collective.

Yeah, intelligence, I would say that I feel like,

makes it really powerful than hiring in house.

Obviously, you know, hiring in house and versus

an agency has. It also depends on, you know,

what's the pricing model that the agency is going

after. Are they taking a commission on revenue?

Are they charging a flat fee? But, but again, I

thought it was interesting that there's like this

paradox of brands are going with agencies Even if

they find them more expensive, at the end of the

day, they're still settling for, for outsourcing

versus going in house.

Yeah, it's fascinating, isn't it? And I get on

one hand how that would be a paradox, you know,

and. But on the other hand, I guess one of the

things I am noticing is obviously ecom companies,

they're cutting costs quite a bit. Everyone's

becoming very cost conscious because it's. There

has been so many price hikes. It's actually quite

complicated now, I think, to rise. I'm not saying

you shouldn't increase prices, but I think people

have increased prices but still need to manage

costs. And so they're looking in, you know,

internally at how to do that. So I can see them

going, actually, we spend four grand a month with

that agency. Can we find an agency where we spend

three grand a month and get the same output?

Right. So I can see why people would ask that

question. But I guess I also see how internally I

might say, well, I need to hire two new people.

Right. So real life example, I suppose at our

company, I'm looking to hire two people at the

moment. It's a very real question now to ask

myself, well, do I actually want to hire somebody

or can I outsource this work? Right, right. And

so I'm, I'm looking at my own cost base and

going, right, what do I actually do in house and

what can I outsource? And so I can see how this

creates this sort of paradox. I'm looking maybe

to outsource more because I want to keep my

internal costs down, but in outsourcing more, I'm

going, oh, I'm not, I'm not happy with four grand

a month, dude, I need it to be three, you know,

that kind of thing. And I, I've seen that a lot,

actually. I've seen that a lot. I've seen

agencies, especially freelancers, so agencies

where it's just maybe one or two people, you

know, just sort of doing the ad spend and things

like that. I, I've seen them getting squeezed by

companies and because they are one man bands for

better, you know, their soul. And it's just them

really, that's why they're freelancers. It's

really hard to. Unless you're full on with work.

It's really hard to go, okay, I'll just drop my

prices for you, rather than just turning around

to them and saying, oh, well, if you don't want

to pay, go somewhere else. It's not actually an

easy thing. To say, is it. If you're a

freelancer, it's easier, I suppose, if you're an

agency, but even then everyone's a little bit

twitchy at the moment. So again, coming back to

your uncertainty observation, I think that's

interesting. I do think that's interesting. I'm

kind of. Go ahead.

I was gonna say, I think it also has to do maybe

with the learning curve. Curve. Because

especially at this time of the month. Sorry, at

this time of the year, if you are in that

position and you're an ecommerce brand, you know

that hiring an employee, you're probably not

gonna see any results anytime soon. Cause they

need time to ramp up. Agencies need it too. But

agencies usually come with SOPs and they're ready

to deploy almost because it's for them. It's sort

of like, this is literally my everyday. This is

literally what I do every single day. Like

you're, you know, you as a brand, you're probably

not that different from the 15 other brands that

I work with. So maybe that, that speed factor

might be an aspect that brands value over hiring

in house.

Yeah, it's an interesting one. I was going to

say, I'm kind of, I'm curious also whether

actually the traditional agency model that we've

experienced the last few years, whether that

actually needs to change as well. I appreciate

this is a much deeper conversation.

Yep.

Than what we're thinking, but I, I've not. We

have an agency, right. A media agency. And we

went down the traditional route of this is our

service, this is our retainer. You pay the

retainer, we do the service. The problem I think

people have got is, and this is my experience in

using agency, is that when you go to an agency,

you get a great service at the start. But if that

agency is good, they're going to grow, they're

going to get more clients, and the people that

are good for you are now going to be good for

three people, four people. And so the quality of

work for you gets less and less, the feedback

gets less and less, you get annoyed and then you

end up going to another agency and the whole

process repeats itself. One of the things that

we've done, and I can't give you any hard data

yet, Raul, I'm not going to lie because I just

don't know. I'm intrigued to see the results with

one of our agencies is we have gone to the market

and we've said, right, listen, this is the work

that we're going to do. This is the fee for that

but at the end of a predefined period, which in

this particular industry is going to be, I think

about five months, at the end of those five

months, your staff will be trained on our

processes and we'll be able to do a chunk of the

work. So we will help you get up and running and

we will train your staff. Now if you don't have

staff, we will carry on doing the work for you

under the traditional retainer model. But if you

do, we will train them and we will move from

doing the everyday work into a much more sort of

consultative coaching role to make sure the staff

stay on top of things and, and go forward. The

initial response to that actually has been really

positive. But like I say, it's all anecdotal at

the moment. And so part of me wonders in the

midst of all of this, whether the agencies which

change their models to whatever it is, maybe

could find a way to win.

Yeah, I've, I actually had a similar discussion

last week with Jordan West.

I know Jordan, he's a legend. He has been on the

show.

Yes. Oh yeah, I saw, I saw actually so, and you

know, he, he mentioned actually so I was on, in

his podcast and I was asking him so many

questions that at some point I felt like I was

the, the host. But, but one of the, one of the,

so we were talking about this particular question

about the retainers and the in house versus

outsourcing. He mentioned that, that agencies,

when they do like a, like a kind of performance

based or like, you know, revenue based type of,

you know, get a commission on the revenue Lyft or

something like that, that at some point if you do

too well, it will get you fire as an agency.

Yes.

Because you'll have the CFO saying, wait a

minute, 30k. Like, oh sure, you know, we made,

you know, I don't know if these were the numbers

that he mentioned. I'm sure it was just like, you

know, kind of just relatively figures. But you

know, if you make a brand generate a million

dollars and you get 30k out of it, 3%, sure.

Great. You know, you've, you've made the brand

get a million dollars in revenue, but they're

going to see a 30k bill and the CFO in question

is going to say, wait a minute, do we really need

to spend 30k on this? Because obviously. And

again, it's the same thing that we were talking

about earlier. In hindsight it looks pretty easy.

It's like, oh, okay, well this agency got it for

30. There's gotta be an agency that maybe gets a

little bit less, but we pay a lot less. Right.

And so, and I feel like that's a raw mentality,

but at the end of the day in a company, you have

a ton of different stakeholders. The CFO has one

job and you know, and it's, it's also, you know,

I think it's also the CMO or the CEO job of

saying, no, no, no, you know, we, we need us,

we're not. We wouldn't be able to get where we

are. But again, in hindsight, it always makes it

a little bit more difficult to see. But yeah,

that's so, you know, answering your question, I

don't know, I don't know what's the ideal pricing

model when again even like what it could be

considered like the most fair type of approach,

you know, can also. And you know, we've seen our

referral candy too. I mean, referral candy, we

take a commission on refer purchases. So on the

revenue that the referral program generates.

Yeah. At some point we get questions. At some

point it's, you know, when we are able to help a

brand get to a certain size in the referral

program, some of them have question of like,

well, whether, you know, I'm paying a lot. Like,

you can prove what you've generated, but the bill

is there, the invoice is there. And so I can see

how it can generate that kind of situation.

Whether it's a brand talking to an agency or a

brand talking to an app.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really fascinating, isn't

it? I mean, the whole thing just. And if you're

listening to this and you're an Ecommerce owner,

then, and you know, having sat on both sides of

the fence, having been and still running agency

and having been and still running my own

Ecommerce businesses, I get to see it from both

sides. I really do. And I think that I would

just. Probably the best advice I could give you

is just communicate well and ask lots of

questions. Don't let the anger and resentment

build up, have the conversations early. And I

think agencies are learning more now to adapt to

that and I think it's an important thing to do.

And of course, I mean, you mentioned Jordan West.

He was on the show. We were talking about TikTok

shops and he was on the show, I think, back in

May, if you want to check out that episode, Dear

Listener, it was a great episode. He's again such

a legend. He and I are on WhatsApp all the time,

just chatting away. He's such A good guy. So I'm

curious to hear that conversation you had with

him. If I'm honest with you, Raul, I'm going to

listen to that one. Speaking of questions. Right.

One of the things I like to do in the show, which

I say like to do is a more recent thing that

we've been doing is ask a guest for a question.

For me, this is where I ask you for a guest. I'm

not going to answer it now. I'm going to answer

it on my social media platforms. So this is my

little trick, my little come and join me on

social media thing for you, dear listener. Raul,

what's the question?

Well, we kind of talked about it earlier, but I

want to get your full answer on this. How do you

see the US elections affecting Q4 sales?

Fantastic. If you want to know how I see the US

election affecting Q4 sales, then come join me on

social media. You can find me at edmondson, both

on LinkedIn and Instagram and I'll be posting the

answer to that and the other questions I've been

asked soon. So, yeah, do come, follow me. Well,

anything else in closing? I mean you've, you put

this together every month. Is there anything else

in the data which you found, which you've kind of

gone, that's a little bit surprising?

I don't know if it's surprising, but it's just

something I like and that. So the last question

that I ask, the last two questions that I ask

agency owners are, you know, how you see your

agency's revenue looking like in the next six

months. And then also how do you see

opportunities in the Ecommerce world looking like

in the next six months? So it's more like, you

know, just let's predict the future, right? Like,

how do you see it working? And you know, even

when we were having like months with like, like

negative responses on marketing budgets, on price

sensitivity, on you know, on different, like

different aspects that we ask agency owners,

those answers were always positive. The answer is

kind of, what's the outlook? You know, it does

not surprise me. And I've talked to a few people

about it and they say, oh yeah, like, you know, I

mean, and you know, the majority of our owners

are entrepreneurs. They have to be positive.

I mean, it's got to be optimistic.

Exactly, exactly. So that's something I

particularly love. And so again we, you know,

this, this month was no difference. I asked, you

know, how do you see the US Elections playing

out? How you see, again, we talked about the

marketing, but marketing budgets were up, but

because of Black Fridays every Monday

preparation. But again we talked about price

sensitivity and all that and. Yeah, but how do

you see everything looking like in six months? Oh

no, it's amazing. So I mean I love it. I mean

it's. And to be honest with you I'll be worried

the day that I see negative outlook in that.

That's true. Yeah. Because then you know you've

got, if the entrepreneurs are downbeat you've got

a real problem, haven't you? Yeah. I think that

there is a blind optimism, isn't there with

entrepreneurs And I actually quite like that

because you need people who go no we, this is

going to turn around, we can, we can do something

here, there's opportunity for us, let's go take

the hill. When everything around them is

collapsing, you know and there's something quite

magical if not self denial about that. It's one

of those and I think you need people around you

like that. And agency owners especially and I

think Ecommerce entrepreneurs cut from the same

cloth when you talk to an agency, if I go and

talk to an adwords agency, give them my account

details, they're going to look at that and go

man, we can totally kill this for you. Right?

They're going to say, they're going to say that

because that's what they're going to say because

that's what they actually believe and think if

they didn't, oh mate, we can't beat that. Or may.

It's just downhill from, for you from here, isn't

it? It's that kind of actually you need that,

that sense of positivity. The danger of course is

you oversell and under deliver and you get caught

up in that excitement, don't you? And so I think

as Ecommerce entrepreneurs we, I listen to agency

owners and I'm like, I just need to filter what

they're saying because they're passionate,

they're excited and then there's a reality of

life.

Yeah, yeah. I mean you're, you know, you're,

you're selling and I do a lot of sales calls,

referral candies. So like if you're, if you're an

Ecommerce store and you request a demo, there's a

chance that I'll be the one that's on the other

side of the screen and you know, you, and you

gotta, I mean you gotta believe in what you're

selling.

Yeah.

You gotta believe in what you're, what you're

capable of doing, you know, whether it's an

agency or an app. So I totally get that. And you

gotta have that optimism.

Yeah, yeah, you do now. I love it, Love it. Well,

listen, man, if people want to reach out to you,

I mean, you've mentioned it at the start of the

show, but let's talk about it again now. If

people want to reach out to you, if they want to

connect with you, what's the best way to do?

If they want to email me, it's

raul"referralcandy.com and if they want to check

out the report, that's referralcandy.com/eaci,

which stands for Ecommerce Agency Conference

Index.

Yep. And do check it out. I mean, I've read

through the September report is very, very

insightful.

Thank you.

And yeah, really, really well put together

documents. So do sign up for that. Do go and get

that. It is free to access, so go check that out.

And of course, do connect with Raul if you've got

any questions, even if it's just to say hello,

I'm sure Raul would love to hear from you. And of

course we will link to everything that Raul has

given us in the show notes as well, which you can

get with the transcript and all that sort of good

stuff. You can get it on the website

ecommercepodcast.net and of course, like I say,

you can get it in the show notes to scroll down

on your app. And if you sign up to the

newsletter, that'll be coming to you anyway, just

automagically. Well, listen, man, it's good to

see you again and good to chat again. We should

do this more often.

Definitely not every three years. Probably in a

few months.

Maybe let's get you on sooner next time.

Sounds good.

But genuinely, thanks for coming on, man. Really

appreciate it. Thanks for sharing the insights

and love what you guys are doing and thanks for

putting it out there. Thanks for making it free

for people like me to get some insights. Really

appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you. And thanks for having me again.

No worries. What a great conversation. Huge

thanks again to Raul for joining me today. Now be

sure to follow the Ecommerce podcast wherever you

get your podcasts from because we've got some

more great conversations lined up and I of course

don't want you to miss any of them. Why would I?

I wouldn't. And in case no one has told you yet

today, let me be the first. You are awesome. Yes.

You are created awesome. It's just a burden you

have to bear. Raul's got to bear it. I've got to

bear it. You've got to bear it as well.

Now.

The Ecommerce Podcast is produced by podjunction.

You can find our entire archive of episodes on

your favorite podcast app. The team that makes

this show possible is Sadaf Baynon and Tanya

Hutsuliak. Our theme music was written by Josh

Edmundson, and as I mentioned, if you'd like to

read the transcript or show notes, simply head

over to the website ecommercepodcast.net where

you can sign up for the weekly newsletter and all

of the good stuff gets delivered straight to your

inbox. Totally for free. But that's it from me.

That's it from Raul. Thank you so much for

joining us. Have a fantastic week wherever you

are in the world. I will see you next time. Bye

for now.

SA.