Foreign.

Welcome back to Just Breathe.

Thanks for joining me today.

When you hear the phrase positive masculinity, what comes to mind for you?

For me, I instantly think of the buzz phrase as of late, toxic masculinity.

So I'm intrigued.

What does it mean to flip that phrase around and look at gender expectations, socialization and messaging in a new light?

A positive light.

How can this ages old cycle of restrictive thinking be broken?

Is it possible to break free from traditional gender models?

As I've learned from our guest today, Mac McGregor, this journey in vulnerability is for all of us.

Let's dive in.

Welcome to Just Breathe Parenting, your LGBTQ team, the podcast transforming the conversation around loving and raising an LGBTQ child.

My name is Heather Hester and I am so grateful you are here.

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Whether today's show is an amazing guest or me sharing stories, resources, strategies, or lessons I've learned along our journey, I want you to feel like we're just hanging out at a coffee shop having a cozy chat.

Most of all, I want you to remember that wherever you are on this journey right now, in this moment in time, you are not alone.

Raise your hand if you've ever been in conversation with your LGBTQIA child or friend and felt confused or embarrassed or even frustrated because you didn't understand the meaning of the words or phrases that they used.

Come on, it's nothing to be ashamed of.

My hand is raised.

We've all been there.

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Welcome to Just Breathe.

I am so happy you are all here today and I'm really excited about the conversation that we just this really, really extraordinary and interesting human being.

Mac McGregor is the gender Sensei, which I just think is such a cool, cool nickname that you have and we're going to learn why he is considered that in a little bit.

But just to give you a little bit of background, he is a speaker who works to educate and train various corporations, colleges and groups on topics concerning diversity, gender, healthy masculinity, and being true to oneself.

He is a dedicated, heartfelt activist and educator who focuses every part of his existence on creating world where people can feel free to be their authentic selves.

He has been a keynote speaker at many events, including the Mayo Clinic and many colleges, organizations and conferences which include the University of Washington, where he is a guest instructor each semester who discusses the complexity of gender transgender and gender non conforming.

Mac has also made appearances on Ripley's Believe it or not, the Learning Channel, the discovery channel, the 700 Club, Univision, people Magazine, and many, many more.

He writes for the Huffington Post, the Goodman Project, Seattle Gay News, Unite Magazine, and other publications.

He is also a multimedia talk show host of the youe Can Make a Difference show on Rainier Avenue radio.

In 2017, Mac ran for Seattle City Council and was the first transgender person ever to be on a ballot in Washington State.

Mac is the founder and executive director of Positive Masculinity, a nonprofit that works to dismantle toxic masculinity and helps masculine people work to create a healthier model of masculinity for all people.

So, Mac, welcome to Just Breathe.

I am really delighted that you are here and that we get to have this conversation because we, we've been chit chatting for a little bit here before, before we even press, and we've covered so many fun topics already.

So just welcome and thank you so much for being here.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, I was just going to say I love what you're doing in the world as well.

It's wonderful.

Well, thank you.

Thank you very much.

It's, you know, as we've been, as we've been talking, it is, it is important we both feel passionately about what we do.

Right.

And it's important work.

So it's always wonderful to speak with somebody who is doing something similar in the world and just has such an extraordinary story.

So I'm really excited for you to share why you're doing what you're doing in the world.

Well, I was born in the Bible Belt in the south, and in my first test of life, I got an F.

Which your first test of life is when you are born and someone in the hospital looks at you and they write a letter on a piece of paper.

I call it the magic letter.

And I got an F.

And it follows you the rest of your life.

And most people don't realize the impact it has on every aspect of your life.

It has an impact on your safety.

It has an impact on the education you will receive, on the societal expectations, on the money that you will be able to make in your lifetime.

It impacts every part of your life.

And I didn't fit really with that letter that they gave.

But of course, I'm, you know, in my.

I'm 57 now, so.

There wasn't even the word transgender back then.

When I was born, I just knew I didn't fit what they were telling me, and I certainly didn't fit the Southern belle name I was given, so.

So at four years old, all I knew is I didn't fit.

At 4 years old, I started changing my name to a masculine name, playing with children, and I had absolutely no exposure to anyone in the LGBTQ community.

In my Southern Baptist world, I always say the only acronym I knew was wwjd.

What Would Jesus Do?

And he.

They were telling me he wasn't having anything to do with these other letters of the queer Alphabet.

So I had no exposure.

Yes.

So I just knew I didn't fit, so I started changing my name.

Now, the funny thing about this is my mom had me at 16, so I'm very grateful.

My grandparents helped raise me.

In my younger years, I'd have probably been a foster kid if they hadn't stepped up.

And they were really amazing.

And so my papa and I had a couple of shows we watched every week.

I mean, it was our time, right?

We went fishing together.

He taught me how to fish, and we watched Bonanza and Gunsmoke.

Those were our shows.

And I'm gonna take you back in your memory.

You know, how many of you remember smoke?

So they actually thought it was really cute because I used to wear little six shooters and a little cowboy hat, sheriff's badge, and.

And little.

Little boots.

And when I changed my name playing with other kids, I told him I was Matt Dillon, the sheriff on Gunsmoke.

And so my grandparents thought it was really cute when kids would come knock on the door and ask if Matt Dillon could.

Gosh, I love it.

That's awesome.

Yeah.

Yes.

So fast forward.

I went to a Southern Baptist high school.

I.

Well.

Well, I'm not going to fast forward that much yet.

I started martial arts at 6, which I often say was my.

Is my soulmate.

I'm so grateful for the martial arts because I was a kid with a lot of energy and a lot of curiosity.

And my mom, at that time, by the time I was six, she was taking me back and forth away from my grandparents.

I had some periods of time, and she was troubled.

I mean, she's on her 12th marriage now, so it was very rocky, and my life was like a revolving door.

So my martial arts was the pos.

My.

My dojo martial arts school and family Chosen family.

There were a positive place.

Right.

They gave me a lot of wonderful support and feedback, and I'm just grateful every day there were parents there.

I mean, I would go to competitions and go to dojo events.

My mom never showed up, and other parents would step up.

I've never forgotten.

Sometimes they'd bring an extra sandwich for me because they knew she didn't show up, or they'd give me a ride to, you know, an event we were going to.

I've never forgotten how people just stepped up and were just good people.

And that made a huge difference in my life.

So, of course, getting that positive feedback there, I just excelled and did it more and more, and I was the kid they had to kick out at night and tell me to go home.

You know, we have to lock the doors now.

You have to go.

So.

And I did really well.

Like, every belt I was in, I was the state champion for that rank in.

In, you know, every year.

And so by the time I was 17, I won the US fighting title, the US lightweight fighting title, and I started getting big opportunities.

Of course, I was kicking for Jesus at the time, which is why I was on the 700 Club.

You know, it's really funny because I grew up in the church, but I never internalized the hate that my very church put out there about people like me.

I never internalized it because it never made sense to me that they would say, God is love, but God won't accept certain people, and then.

Then the scroll would come down.

Of all the people that they said, you know, God wouldn't accept or was going to send to hell, that never, even as a child, never made sense to me.

So I didn't internalize that.

And I'm very grateful that my mind works that way, that I have enough critical thinking in my mind, even as a young person, to know that that wasn't true.

Right.

Yeah.

So I went on.

I went on, you know, to start traveling the world and experiencing the world.

And, of course, when you start traveling and you get out of that little mentality of your little Bible Belt area or wherever you're from, it really changes your view.

And I found out there are more people like me because the Internet wasn't there to find community back then.

You know, I met other people that were LGBTQ in the world, and that.

That let me know that I wasn't the only one.

I wasn't alone.

And I had some people to talk to then and understand that it was okay.

And I kept competing.

I happened to have really Good genetics as an athlete.

So the last time I competed in an international competition, I was 39 years old.

And like I said, I started martial arts at 6.

So this is a very long career and all my awards are in fighting.

So it was a contact sport, very hard on the body.

But at 39, I was the oldest one on the U.S.

karate team, male or female.

And there were 18 and 19 year old kids on the team calling me the grandparent of the team.

So I won.

Yeah, I know.

I won two medals in that World Championships at 39.

And a lot of those 18 year old, 18, 19 year olds didn't win any medals.

So I just have to say one for the old guy.

Right, Exactly.

And I looked at my clock and said, this is probably a good time to retire from competition.

That is also the thing that kept me from going through medical transition earlier because they would not have allowed me to compete course.

And so, yeah, I mean, they're still trying to figure that out, right?

With transgender athletes, especially in the context.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I knew they would still allow me.

I'm still a, you know, certified Olympic coach and referee and I knew I would be able to still do that.

But I retired at 39 after winning those two medals in a world championships and began my, my medical transition journey, which is what made me move to Seattle.

Okay.

Actually, because I did a lot of research on where I could find community and doctors and therapists and people who knew what they were doing with this.

Because as an athlete, my body was always a fine tuned machine for me.

I wanted to do this in the healthiest way possible.

So, yeah.

And so I came and visited Seattle a few times and talked to other people in the community here and fell in love with it.

Of course, when you visit Seattle in the summer, it's easy to fall in love.

The summers here.

Gorgeous.

Yeah.

The four months of gray, or four, maybe five months of gray are rough.

But yeah, now I understand snowbirds.

I didn't understand before, so my martial arts background.

So after I started transition, I had people in the community say to me, we need someone with your teaching experience.

Because I had, of course, martial arts raises you to teach, you learn and then you teach what you learn.

And I had run my own dojo.

I had been a public speaker.

I was a keynote speaker for the Fellowship of Christian Athletes for years, all over.

I mean, I've spoken all over the world and they said, we need someone with your experience to help explain this journey to people in a way that maybe they can understand.

Because I'M convinced we've all transitioned.

And this is part of what I teach.

If you look back at your high school prom picture or homecoming picture, are you still that same girl?

Oh, no, no, no.

I'm a different person today than I was five years ago, so.

That's right.

I bring that up.

So when I get people to understand that we've all transitioned.

In fact, sometimes if we all look back at our high school yearbook, once you're in your 30s, even 40s, 50s, of course it gets more, you know, it gets.

You look back and you think, what was I thinking?

What was, look at my hair, look at my style.

Right?

Yeah, yeah.

So we have totally transitioned from who we were then.

And then you can, like, start looking at it.

Like you said in five year, 10 year segments, we're not the same person we were.

So we've all transitioned.

Right.

And what I try to get people to understand, so that helps people understand my journey, it's about us finding that path to be true to ourselves, whoever that is.

And that's, that's what I've done.

And also, gender is a spectrum.

Just like sexuality, it's a huge spectrum.

You know, one of the things I teach about when I teach about gender is there's Rocky Balboa, you know, the big tough guy, There's John Wayne, the big tough guy, and then there's Fred Rogers.

And those are all different ways of expressing masculinity, but they're extremely different.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

Yes.

Yeah.

One is not more of a man than the other, and it's the same thing in femininity.

There are many different ways to express that as well.

That is, I think that's a really, really good way to, to explain that and to help people visualize because it helps kind of break out of that very black and white thinking.

Right.

Like it's this or this.

And really help to explain what that.

Because I think when you try to just go with, you know, this is what the gender spectrum is like, people kind of get lost and like, oh, there's so much.

And I, I don't know.

But if you, when you explain it that way, that really helps give, like, visuals to.

Oh, okay, well.

And think about Fred Rogers as wonderful of an, of a role model as he was when he was young.

He did not fit in the traditional masculine stereotype.

Right.

I mean, he was an intellectual and emotionally tender human.

Right.

Which didn't fit into the stereotypical masculine role model.

So I'm sure he got picked up.

Oh, I'm, I am sure he did.

You are absolutely right.

So then I got a friend of mine.

A friend of mine when I was teaching, who's a fellow martial artist and a fellow educator, Reed Mihalko, he actually said to me, in front of a big crowd where I was speaking, where he was hosting an event, he said, you are the gender.

Sensei.

Sensei.

Because sensei is a word that, you know, we use for teacher in the martial arts.

And it marries my history with what I'm teaching now.

And it was, of course, very catchy.

And it works.

Right.

So now I educate people, like, literally all over the world.

I've taught in South Africa.

I've taught police departments.

I teach at colleges, at corporations, even faith groups.

One of the interesting things is because I grew up with that faith background, I know how to talk to people and help them build a bridge of hopefully understanding to the transgender experience.

That is wonderful.

Yeah.

Especially considering your.

Your background.

That is such a lovely.

A lovely way to continue that word.

Yes, yes.

And, you know, I don't.

I don't hold anything.

In fact, I learned a lot of good things from church.

And, you know, I think there are a lot of people in faith communities, of course, that are really good people that want to do the right thing.

And so it's about just building bridges.

Right.

We can't stand in our corners and point fingers at people and say they don't understand us or agree with us.

So we're just going to, you know, not have any conversations.

We're just going to fight each other.

That doesn't.

That doesn't help anything.

No.

Right.

So I try to create.

I try to create places, safe places for us to have conversations so that people can see, hey, we're all just human, and we're all just trying to figure this out, and none of us have all the answers.

So let's give each other a little grace along this journey.

Exactly.

Well, and I think that, you know, one of the things that I know that you do is you.

You talk a lot about being curious.

Right.

As a.

Which.

Which, you know, I.

I also love.

And the whole idea.

And this is, you know, similarly for me, this is kind of where it comes from, is the idea of being curious and instead of judgmental.

Right.

Which I think can be the default sometimes and certainly can be driven, I believe is driven a lot by fear of just not knowing, not understanding, being different.

Something is different.

So people tend to be fearful of it instead of curious.

So I would love to talk a little bit about that, because I love so much what you are, what you are doing with this in your work and in your.

I know you've done some talks on it as well and just how we can kind of, you know, go into our daily lives using that as our kind of our default mindset.

Yeah, I, you know, I've been running this masculine men's group for over four years now.

That's how I started Positive Masculinity.

We started as a men's discussion group to help men do this inner work.

To help men and masculine people do this inner work.

And one of the things I'm constantly talking to them about is being curious, number one, about ourselves.

Because I believe that's the key to getting to know ourselves and getting through our traumas and the things that trigger us and the things that make us rigid in life.

I talk a lot in the book about rigidity and how that is nothing to celebrate.

It's nothing to celebrate.

So this idea of the masculine being stoic is rigid and it's nothing to celebrate.

And as an athlete, I always relate everything back to as an athlete.

Right.

If you're rigid as an athlete, you're going to get injured.

It's about being flexible to keep you from being injured.

Right.

Not rigid.

And so, you know, the same thing happens emotionally.

If we're rigid emotionally, it's not healthy for us.

And so I talk about when we feel something that someone says or does triggers us and we feel tightness in our body, in our jaw and our shoulders, our neck, start getting curious.

Instead of just going through that and letting that keep happening, that pattern keep happening.

Start asking yourself, where is this coming from?

Why is this bringing this feeling up in me?

And get curious about yourself and your own reactions and start unpacking those layers of why we react the way we do and why we shut down and armor up around people.

Because that's how we're going to peel back the layers of our social conditioning is by being curious as to why things cause us to react the way they do.

And that's just the part of curiosity and getting to know ourselves.

Which is a lot right there, isn't it?

It's huge.

I think that's huge.

I mean, if you're talking about doing your own interpersonal work, the curiosity is the key to growth.

I really believe it's the key to growth.

And I'm a very growth minded person and I surround myself with people that are like that, people that are in my inner circle.

One of my things is, you know, those are the type of people I want to be around that I want to spend time with that we.

Not that they not only support and foster their own growth, but they foster the growth and support the growth of those around them.

And so that's so important.

But then, of course, the curiosity expands.

Think about your family.

You know, my wife and I went through some interesting life experiences in the last few years of walking a few family members through their cancer journey.

And one of them was her middle sister.

And, you know, all.

All of these family dynamics.

And I constantly encouraged her.

You know, when someone dies or there's a wedding, a big family event, all those family dynamics come out, like, in a big way, right around big events like that.

Get curious about why your dad is reacting the way he does instead of letting it trigger you.

Get curious.

Get curious about why this family member does that.

And, you know, like, looking at it through the lens of curiosity changes everything.

It's a key to having healthy relationships with your healthy relationship with yourself and everyone else in your life.

That is, yes, so very true.

And I.

As you're saying this, I'm thinking this sounds like it's a very easy thing to do, being curious.

And I just, for everyone listening, this is such an important piece of personal growth, like you said.

Right.

And this is such an important shift to make.

It is also difficult and it's really uncomfortable.

So I just think that's important to note, not to be like Debbie Downer on the conversation, but I think it's a good, like, kind of reality thing, too.

Like, just know this is.

I love being able to kind of do that, step back.

Right.

And to.

To kind of open up the being curious about whatever it is that's going on, whether it's a family or situation or friend situation or whatever it is.

Right.

But then to know that in being curious, a lot of times that will bring.

It's going to bring up feelings and they're going to be uncomfortable.

Yes.

And that's okay.

Yeah.

Oh, it's so true.

And I think just like the title of your show, just Breathe.

First.

First thing is to breathe.

Just breathe.

Breathe.

And the hard thing.

Yeah, I know, I know.

You know, as a martial arts instructor, I can't tell you I said many times in my dojo I was going to buy a big flashing sign that said breathe.

Because I was constantly telling, reminding my students to breathe.

And I feel like I do that in every part of my life.

Breathe.

Right.

Because it's our life force.

It's our life force.

And when things get hard, we have a tendency to hold our breath.

We have a tendency to tighten.

We do.

And you're right, it's not easy.

Yes.

Yeah, you're right.

It's not easy to be curious, because in order to be curious, we're breaking our patterns of being reactionary.

And we've had those.

Exactly.

A lot of us, of course, the longer we've lived, the longer we've had them.

Right, right.

Yeah.

Yes.

So it's not for the pain at heart.

No, no.

But it so worth it.

But it's much healthier.

Like all of these things that we talk about.

I mean.

Oh, my goodness.

So this kind of, you know, thinking about just the whole idea of using curiosity in all these different types of situations, which I love.

One of the things that you, you know, do you kind of mentioned, you know, your men's group that you work with, but you.

We've also talked about the whole kind of working through our social conditioning, which takes curiosity, right?

Yes, it does.

Yes.

You know, I think most people, first of all, they don't even think about how their social conditioning has affected every aspect of their lives.

It affects our belief systems.

It affects how we treat others and how we judge ourselves and how hard we are on ourselves as well.

It affects how we walk in the world.

Right.

It.

And most of us, it's so unconscious to most people.

And so asking people to go back and examine their socialization and social conditioning.

You know, a friend, one close friend who's on the board of Positive Masculinity, has been with me from the beginning of this work.

He told me, you're looking for unicorns, Mac, because not a lot of people want to run back and do this kind of interpersonal tough examination.

Right.

My response to him was, unicorns unite.

Right.

I mean, let's do it.

That's right.

Yeah.

As.

As a warrior, you know, as a martial artist who's fought all over the world, I don't back down from a.

From a.

From tough things, you know?

No.

And.

And this wasn't easy for me, coming from the south and the Bible Belt and unpacking all of that.

It's not.

It's not been an easy journey.

And I can't.

I can't tell you, you know, that.

That I was always eager to jump in and do it either.

But I.

I pushed through because I wanted to grow.

I wanted to have a better life.

I want better relationships in my life, you know, I want to thrive, not just survive.

Right.

And if you want to thrive, this work is so important.

One of the obstacles, I think to doing this work for many people is that if you ask them to go back in the examine these things, a lot of times it makes us look at people that we, we kind of idolize or love, like parents, grandparents, teachers, coaches, people that have been instrumental in our life.

It makes us see that they have faults because everything that they modeled for us, when you look back as a conscious adult, wasn't the healthiest forest today.

It does not mean that they were bad people.

That is definitely, I think, one of those, one of those moments where you realize when you are doing this work and when you do look back and you do have to see those things and kind of reconcile them within yourself and then sometimes reconcile them with those you love.

It, you know, again is not easy.

But the outcome, the relationship that is on the other side of that is so much richer and so much deeper and so worth that.

So I think that is such an interesting.

I love that you brought up that point about how we look back and look back with curiosity and look back, kind of analyzing our social conditioning from early, early, right.

And a lot of the people, you know, our parents, teachers, like you said, coaches, really influential people in our life, we kind of look back now and think maybe, maybe some of the things we learned were not the healthiest for us.

And so we're at this point where we're wanting to reconcile that and, and work through it so that we can, you know, as, as we know with a lot of the.

A lot of things like this, we can work through and get to a place with a relationship where it's even deeper and richer and better.

So how do, how do we do that?

How do we reconcile these things?

Well, you know, it's complicated, right?

So my papa, my grandfather was an amazing role model for me in many, many ways.

He taught me about public service.

He taught me, in fact, he was such a huge influence on me about loving the land.

He taught me how to garden, how to fish, and he could tell a story like nobody's business.

So he like literally trained me from the time I was little in storytelling.

He was just a gracious extrovert like me and a really great guy in many ways.

And yet he had some things, as I look back as an adult with a conscious mind that I don't want to emulate.

You know, like he was from the era where he gave my grandmother an allowance every week for her to shop.

You know, she was a stay at home housewife.

Right.

And so I certainly.

That would never work with my wife and I, and I Don't ever want to emulate that.

Right.

That's like, I want a more equitable relationship.

Right, Right.

But that doesn't mean he was a bad man.

It means nobody was having these conversations with him at the time.

You know, we can't, like, go back and expect people in our past like that to be where we are today if they weren't, you know, given the opportunities to learn the things that we have been given the opportunities to learn and have the conversations we're having.

And we can love person parts of them and also realize that there are things we don't want to carry forward.

And that doesn't mean we.

We don't love them or, you know, care about them and that they didn't also do good things.

Like I said, we're complicated beings.

Right.

We.

We all do some things that are wonderful and some things that we.

That we may regret or that aren't the best.

Well, exactly.

I mean, we're all human.

Yes, exactly.

So everybody is.

You know, we all make mistakes, different things.

Right.

So I think that is such an important.

An important piece of all of this is to recognize the.

Recognizing the humanity in one another.

Yes.

And the beauty of it is, you know, we try to, I think, especially if people have passed away, like my grandparents, of course, are no longer with us.

We kind of put people on a pedestal and want to think they're perfect, but nobody's perfect.

No.

And real love loves them through their imperfection.

Right, exactly.

That's exactly right.

That is something that, you know, interestingly, I grew up thinking, I mean, well into my adulthood, that my parents were perfect and, you know, realized, obviously, at some point that they are human beings just like the rest of us.

And, you know, my husband and I, when we had kids, that was one of our, you know, kind of one of our big things where we really made a very conscious decision to say, you know, what?

We want our kids to know that we're human and that we are going to mess up.

We're going to make mistakes and kind of model, like, how to do that.

Right.

How to say, oh, I really goofed.

I really messed up, I.

Or I shouldn't have said that, or whatever it happens to be.

And to model how to say, you know, I'm really sorry, you know, can you forgive me?

The whole.

All of those pieces.

Right.

That are so important that, you know, looking back, that was just the time.

That was their generation.

That is how they were raised.

Right.

So it wasn't, you know, kind of to your point, like this Is just, you know, things that we learned through the generations and how we, you know, either break cycles or shift or, you know, whatever it is.

Yes, totally.

And, boy, how.

What a valuable lesson you and your husband are giving your kids to be vulnerable enough to allow them to see that it's just you can't.

Like that those are life lessons that you can't even put a price on.

There's just so valuable to see that you will still care for one another and be there for one another, even when you make a mistake and that you can apologize.

Right.

And that people can move on from it.

Exactly.

Really?

I mean, now I look back and I think, I don't know where we.

We had the wisdom to do that or the, you know, it wasn't like a fair.

I don't think it was super conscious in the way that we decided to do that.

It was just.

We just did.

And now I'm so grateful, considering everything that our family has been through and can, you know, and just how close our relationships are and how real our relationships are.

And we allow for all of the bumpiness and the messiness.

And to me, that's such a gift.

So I am grateful.

Yes, it is such a gift.

You know, one of the success stories that I have from running this positive masculinity group monthly, you know, discussion group has been a father and son, an adult son.

We only allow adults to come to this group because we want people to feel open to talk about whatever's really going on with them.

And so I have this father and adult son who's been coming for quite a while now.

The father came first and then invited his son, and then the son started coming.

And not long after the son started coming, the son started sharing things with me.

That being in this group for, like a few months had already started improving his relationship with his father, that he never felt like he could have real conversations with him before this.

And I mean, I talk a lot about embracing vulnerability and healthy masculine friendships and relationships need to be able to talk about real things, not just work and sports.

You know, that's something men can learn from.

The feminine is the feminine does friendships much better because they actually talk about real stuff with their friends.

Most women do.

And men don't.

Men traditionally don't.

They stand shoulder to shoulder, don't even look each other in the eye.

And they're very uncomfortable with the thought of talking about feelings, of course, because their whole life, men have been told to stuff their feelings down.

Right, right.

And so, you know, a lot of the work I do is getting men to understand.

We create a safe container where you can actually be in a supportive environment, masculine environment, and talk about your feelings, your hurts, you know, your pain, you know, and, and really share with one another and create healthy masculine relationships.

And this father and son relationship is totally transformed due to being in this group.

And the son even wrote a blog about it, which is on our website.

We have a blog section.

And that just, it's one of those stories that to me makes this work, makes it all worth it, right?

Because I mean, seeing a relationship where even a father, father and son were uncomfortable hugging one another because of the whole masculine, crazy traditional mindset and uncomfortable talking about anything that had any vulnerability to it.

And now they have a real, they call each other, they hang out, they have a real relationship that's like life changing work.

It is, it is.

That is absolutely spectacular.

So, so let's talk a little bit more about this group.

So is this an open group?

Can people, how do people find out more about this?

Well, they can go to positivemasculinitynow.org our website, and you can sign up there to get information about joining our group.

It's a virtual group.

You know, we, we started meeting in person and then of course, as we all experienced the pandemic, we, you know, scrambled around to figure out how to keep going and went virtual.

And now we're staying virtual.

We might, we might move into a hybrid version, but we're, we're staying virtual because we have people joining from all over the place and we don't want to stop that, you know, so it's been just an amazing experience.

And men, you know, a lot of people say men don't want to talk about real stuff or their feelings, but actually when you give them a safe container, a safe, supportive container to talk about it, they actually do want to open up and talk.

But you have to really start peeling back those layers we've been talking about, right?

Because there's so much social conditioning around not showing vulnerability to other men.

The male world is competitive, not collaborative.

You know, and we're talking about a collaborative, supportive way of being, which is, it's revolutionary.

But it's on the second Tuesday of every month and we have an amazing, we have an amazing group of supportive people.

And, and you can just come when you can.

You don't have to like commit to every month, but be there when you can.

Because we choose a different subject to discuss each month.

Like our next month's subject is examining our core values and how that affects our entire life, how we can use.

Once we understand our core values, how we can use that to help us make decisions and help us.

The way we walk in the world.

Help the way we walk in the world.

So, yeah, it's great.

That's great.

Oh, my goodness.

That's wonderful.

And that really goes very much in line with your book.

Right, so your book is Positive Masculinity now, as well as your website.

And I will have links to all of this in the show notes.

So, you know, don't worry about having to remember this.

You.

You all can click on this.

Click on this through the show notes.

But I.

One of the things that we had talked just briefly about, you know, before we started recording, was really talking about, you know, this kind of the broad sense of, you know, positive masculinity as opposed to, you know, we hear the term toxic masculinity a lot right now.

It's a big buzz phrase.

And talking about really cultivating that not only in society in general, but within the LGBTQ community.

And I wonder if you could touch on that just a little bit.

Yeah.

I have a chapter in the book on toxic masculinity.

Toxic and traditional masculinity of the patriarchy and how it's affected the LGBTQ community.

First of all, let me define.

I define a difference between toxic and traditional masculinity.

Traditional masculinity, to me is.

Is like the things, like the values that I talked about with my grandfather that what he.

It's not toxic to the world.

Right.

But he had these traditional values at the time, which were very common, actually, at the time of being the head of the house and not including my grandmother in financial decisions and things like that, that he thought that was his job, to be the provider and all this kind of thing.

So those are traditional values to me.

Traditional values are something that, if you keep them to yourself and run your own life that way, they.

They probably aren't toxic.

But even a traditional value can become toxic when I try to force that on someone else and even sometimes turns into bullying others that they need to follow the same belief system I have.

Toxic.

Of course, there are things that we know are just toxic, like the rape culture, like putting women down, like, you know, the patriarchy has held many people back.

People of color, women, LGBTQ people.

That is toxic.

So I call toxic what it is, and I separate the difference between traditional.

I think it's really important to understand that the thing within the LGBTQ community is that we were all socialized around These gender expectations and gender ideals and belief structure like everyone else was.

So there is even traditional and toxic masculinity within the LGBTQ community.

And I think that even marginalized groups have to do their work around that.

Right.

Within the letters of lgbtq, I always say there's like a battle.

I call it the Oppression Olympics, for which letter is the most oppressed?

You know, and people argue about it.

It's ridiculous.

Instead of us walking arm in arm and saying, let's support one another.

We're stronger, united, you know, so that's what I want to see is us realize that collaboration is the way forward, not competitiveness.

You know the old story of when you put a bunch of crabs in a bucket and one crab tries to crawl out, the other crabs pull him down.

That's the way a lot of our world works, even within the marginalized community.

Right.

They.

It's like the fight for the fittest survives.

Right.

And instead of realizing how much more we can do and further, we'll get working together.

So that's part of the deal, is we, even within marginalized communities, need to do this work of going back and examining our biases and our conditioning, because it affects us.

It affects all of us, even those of us in marginalized communities.

Right.

Well, I was just going to say that this is something that affects every single human being.

This isn't smart, specific to, you know, one.

One gender or one orientation.

Right.

It's everyone.

And it's work that is available for every person to take part in or to explore or to be curious about.

Right, exactly.

And it's about, like.

Like I said earlier, it's about making a choice.

Do you want to thrive or just survive?

I mean, that, to me, is the.

Is the.

Is the carrot hanging out here to try to, you know, help people understand the importance of doing this work.

Because your life, your relationships will be so much richer in depth, you know, if you.

If you're willing to take this road less traveled, I would say, and do this kind of introspective work.

Absolutely, absolutely.

And I.

I like the way that you put that because.

Because that is such a positive way of looking at it and kind of draws you out of that.

I think there's.

Again, there's a lot of fear that surrounds.

Anytime you think of kind of stepping out of that place of safety that is actually surviving or kind of staying in that place of whether it's rigidity or whatever it happens to be for you, but knowing that the other alternative or the other option out there is you know, you can be thriving.

You can have deeper relationships.

You can, you know, discover all of these things, not only about yourself, but about other people that are just will make your life on Earth so much more extraordinary.

Oh, definitely.

Can I read you a quote from the book?

Yes, please.

All right.

This is in chapter 13.

The possibilities of what can happen with this type of revolutionary work are endless.

Healing and freedom of expression are just the start.

Tearing down ancient, outdated constructs that cause much more damage than good is another phase of this meaningful work.

Then we can begin to rebuild a healthy model of masculinities where all forms of expression are celebrated.

So I say there's not just one form of masculinity or femininity.

There are masculinities and femininities.

There are many ways to express.

And one of the things I do in my book is there are exercises at the end of each chapter that walk you through peeling back the layers of this socialization that actually has workbook stuff in it, like I do in the group.

Basically, I took this.

I took some of the lesson plans I created for the group, and that's how I started the book.

That's so great.

I love that.

I'm a teacher, you know, so you.

Can'T take the teacher.

You can't take the teacher out.

That's exactly right.

But, oh, my goodness, for work like this, I think that is so important to be able to.

You know, there's one thing to read a really phenomenal book like this, but to be able to kind of pause as you're going through it and do that work and do.

You know, it kind of almost forces you to, you know, whether it's the journaling or the answering of questions, I think that's really, really important.

Yes.

Thank you.

And, you know, I have to say, I'm like.

I feel.

I don't know how to say it.

Just so blessed and so lucky that the world is embracing this work.

You know, I mean, a lot of people would have probably, and some did tell me I was crazy.

A transgender man writing about masculinity and leading up a group about masculinity.

Who's going to listen to a transgender man about that, right?

This book has been the number one new release in five categories so far, including men's health, sociology, lgbtq.

Yeah, it's amazing.

I'm blown away by the response.

And just so you know, Most authors sell 250 books a year, and I'm already in three months, already at 500 sales.

So I'm blown Away by it.

Congratulations.

Congratulations.

Oh, that's phenomenal.

Well, you have a couple more sales here already coming, so.

And I'm sure.

I'm sure many more through this, but I'm very excited to.

To read this myself.

And I.

As I was sitting here, I'm thinking, I have a.

I have a couple of people I'm gonna buy this book for, so the holidays are coming.

Great gift.

It's a great gift.

It's a great gift, right?

What better gift to give than the key to a better relationship with yourself and with others?

I mean, you know, let me say this.

A friend of mine asked me.

She actually interviewed me on a.

On a.

On a book event that we were doing.

She was the person who interviewed me for it.

She said, you know, Mac, I really want to give this gift to a lot of men in my life.

How do I give it to them without it being offensive that I'm saying you need positive masculinity?

Yes.

I think that's a very good question.

What is the answer to that?

Well, you know, one of the answers that I think is really important is she had read the book.

And if you say, I read this book and I learned so much about my socialization around a lot of things that this book has really helped me, and then you give it to somebody, it's not pointing the finger at them.

Oh, goodness, no, no, absolutely not.

And I think that's.

I mean, that's a beautiful reason.

And I.

I mean, I can't wait to read this.

And I think that they're, you know, just for.

For that reason alone to be able to say, oh, my goodness.

I.

You know, I know that I'm going to get a lot from this because this is right up my alley and certainly in the place of where I'm doing a lot of personal.

Personal work myself right now.

So I know this will just be like another great, you know, piece of that personal work.

And I think that's how I would explain it, too.

Like, this is just part of personal work as a human being.

You know, it doesn't.

Yeah, it's so true.

And let me say that even though masculinity is in the title and the reason I focused on that, you know, because I've had this extreme interesting view of gender with my journey, right.

And really studied the way the world reacts when you're in different places on that gender journey, but the reason I focused this book on masculinity was because the masculine is.

Is.

You know, it's much harder to get the Masculine to do this kind of work.

I do talk a lot in the book about, in many of these exercises about femininity and the feminine side to this.

So this work is for everyone.

I also have women, single moms raising sons that have read the book, and I have therapists who have male clients that wanted to learn more about how to help their clients around masculine issues, come to our group, even, and read the book.

So there's something in it for everyone?

I think so.

I mean, when I saw this as we've been talking, I, you know, I immediately thought, I mean, there.

There's something that we can all learn.

There's something that I can definitely learn from this.

I have two sons.

I have a husband.

I have, you know, and these are just.

How can I communicate better with my sons and my husband?

What do I need to understand and learn and.

And, you know, and how can I help them on their journeys?

Right.

So there.

There are pieces for all of us in this.

Yes.

Yes.

So thank you.

Thank you so much for being with me today and just having this.

Really, this was such a wonderful conversation, and I appreciate what you are doing and.

And what you have done your entire life.

It's just a really, really beautiful story.

So thank you for sharing.

Thank you.

And when I visit Chicago, let's have dinner.

My wife and I, you and your husband.

Let's have dinner.

Would love that.

Absolutely.

Love, love that.

Yes, we will do it.

Awesome.

Thank you for all you do, Heather.

And now it's time for your parenting LGBTQ and a.

Okay, here is another great question for our LGBTQ and A segment.

I feel like I keep sticking my foot in my mouth and saying the wrong thing.

Can you share examples of what I should and shouldn't say and why?

I love this question so much, and I know these are both things that I have shared and talked about with guests and just on solo shows over time, but I thought this was a really, just wonderful opportunity to be able to address this question and address some of these things that were, you know, are very common thoughts and common questions and not something that you should feel, you know, ashamed of for asking, because we've all been there.

So I.

There are, you know, probably I could give you a 20 for each of these, but I tried to narrow it down to kind of the top three things that you should should say and the top three things that you shouldn't say.

So the first.

And it's not really a say, but the first thing that you can do when your child comes out to you and Anytime that you feel like you don't know what to say, you don't know how to respond, this is kind of your fallback, like, emotion, your fallback place, which is let your child know that you love them unconditionally, every single bit about them.

No, I love you, but no, I love you.

Even if just I love you.

And that can just any place where you're kind of feeling stuck, or you're feeling like you put your foot in your mouth, or you feel like, you know, I'm going to say the wrong thing, or you do say the wrong thing, just, you know what?

I love you.

And I'm learning.

And I have, you know, I have questions, you have questions.

Just kind of bringing that whole human piece into it.

The second thing kind of rolls into that, which is, you know, if you're not sure what to say right.

It is whatever they're telling you, whether it's when they first come out or if they're sharing another piece of their journey with you.

Thank you for telling me, or thank you for sharing that with me.

I'm so proud of you.

Or I feel really honored that you shared that with me or that you trusted me to share that information.

I know sometimes we think that we need to have this, you know, elaborate dissertation when our child tells us different things and we really don't.

Sometimes the most simple response responses are the best ones.

So really just kind of keeping those in your pocket as here are really great responses that just let your child know, you know, with different words of you are amazing and I love you and thank you for being you.

Thank you for sharing a piece of you with me.

And then the third one, again, again, kind of along the same lines, but I think it's really.

I like this one because it kind of crosses the adolescent teenager, young adult.

It works for all three of these age groups, which is really working to keep those lines of communication open.

Our teenagers specifically really like to have those doors closed.

Even if the doors are closed, that doesn't mean you can't talk to them.

I know it's irritating when the doors are closed.

It is developmentally appropriate.

There's a lot more that can be said about that.

But just know at the base level, that is developmentally appropriate.

That doesn't mean that you can't talk through those doors.

Hey, I'm here if you want to talk.

Hey, you know, there's snacks down in the kitchen.

You know, hey, I have a funny story to tell you later when you want to come out.

Anything, like something, anything that keeps the conversation open.

It can be even, you know, if you want something a little more in depth, it can be engaging with questions like, you know, do you feel comfortable sharing with me what?

And then you can fill in the blank with their orientation, their identity, asking them to share with you what that means to them.

These open ended questions that allow them to share their feelings with you, asking them to give you recommendations for websites or books or articles that they think that you should read to help you understand where they are on their journey.

And finally, just the how can I best support you now on the flip side of this, the you know, what, what things shouldn't I say?

What things shouldn't you say?

The first one is the are you sure?

Just, you know, so many of us have, have been there and have said it, myself included.

And what we all know to be true, who have, who have done this and what we know to be true is that by the time that our children share this information with us, share their orientation, their identity with us, this is something they've been thinking about for a long time.

They have been contemplating.

And if you go back to episode two and four on the stages of coming out, we know that by the time our child comes out to us, they're halfway through the stages of coming out.

This is something that they've really put a lot of thought and contemplation and likely sleepless nights and tears into.

So yes, they are sure the second is referring to their orientation or their identity as a lifestyle, because that implies that it is a choice, which it is not.

This is how they were created.

They are not choosing this.

So we all need to just remove that phrase lifestyle, that word from our vocabulary.

And the third one is asking the question, what did I do to cause this?

The biggest reason is because that implies that there is something wrong with your child, that they are broken, that they've done something wrong.

And that is likely not what you are trying to communicate.

But that is what comes across when you ask a question like that.

So just know that that is one of those things, you know, as you're thinking through things that you want to ask, things that you want to say, you know, kind of to the listener's question.

I keep sticking my foot in my mouth.

A lot of times we stick our feet in our mouth when we say things or ask questions without thinking.

And this definitely ranks up there as one of those.

So just to be aware why you don't ask this question, I hope these were helpful.

I'm so appreciative of the question.

I love having this opportunity to be able to answer questions for you, so keep them coming.

Thanks so much for joining me today.

If you enjoyed today's episode, I would be so grateful.

For a rating or a review, click on the link in the show notes or go to my website chrysalismama.com to stay up to date on my latest resources as well as to learn how you can work with me.

Please share this podcast with anyone who needs to know that they are not alone and remember to just breathe.

Until next time.

Sa.