Hello, and welcome to Home to Her, the podcast that's dedicated to reclaiming the lost and stolen wisdom of the sacred feminine. I'm your host, Liz Kelly, and on each episode, we explore her stories and myths, her spiritual principles, and most importantly, what this wisdom has to offer us right now. Thanks for being here. Let's get started. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

Hey everybody, this is Liz, joining you as usual from central Virginia and the unceded lands of the Monacan Nation, and I am so glad that you are here with me today. And as always, if you would like to know whose lands you might be residing on, please be sure to check out native-land. ca. There's a fantastic interactive map there. I always put that in the show notes, so if you don't remember that, no worries you can go check it out after this. And yeah, I'm so glad you're tuning in today. And if you are interested in learning more about the Sacred Feminine, there are a lot of ways that you can do that. So first, of course, there's a lot of ways you can do that without my help, but I'm just going to tell you the ways that you can do that with my help. You can check out my book, Home to Her, Walking the Transformative Path of the Sacred Feminine. It's available wherever you buy your books. You can check out the classes that are available via the home to her Academy. I am rolling out new courses in collaboration with some amazing teachers all year long. You can follow me on social at home to her on Facebook and Instagram. And I'm, I'm even trying to get my act together on tick tock. So if you're on there, go, go check it out and give me a little love. Cause I'm kind of a slow adopter to new technology and I can't even call that new at this point. It's been around for a while. And you can check out articles and all the past podcast episodes at home to her. com. I will put all of this in the show notes. And if you're a regular listener, I would love for you to leave a review of the show wherever you access it. It's super helpful. It helps other people find this. And so that would be great. Same thing with the book. If you read the book, you liked it. I would love it if you'd leave it a review on Amazon or Goodreads in particular, those are really helpful. And as always, feel free to reach out to me with your thoughts and your comments, your feedback, your suggestions. I love hearing from you. Social is a really good way to do that. I think that's all I got for you on that front. So let's get on with the show. This is another good one. Okay. So I've got another author on the show today. I get to talk to the most amazing people. This is so great. And I just totally devoured her book and she writes with such heart and bravery and integrity. And also from a deeply intersectional place is really inspiring to me. And so I'm just really honored that she's with me today. Dr. Lorraine Monteagut is a queer, Latine astrologer and tarot reader, and author of Brujas, the magic and power of witches of color, which has been featured in Axios, NPR, Telemundo, Cosmopolitan, People en Español, bustle, a book riot, the witch wave, and elsewhere. She is the creator of Witchy Heights, a community space for practical magic based in St. Petersburg, Florida, through which she offers one on one readings, private parties, classes, and a coven membership. And she is joining us today from her home in St. Petersburg, Florida. Lorraine, thank you so much for being here. It's an honor to have you. Thank

you so much. I am ecstatic to be here. Thank you.

Yay. All right. Well listeners to the show know I always start in the same place. I hope y'all aren't getting bored with this. Hopefully you're not. You're still listening. So that's good. But I love to hear from guests about your spiritual background. And I like to hear that because I'm curious. I just like to hear people talk about it. But I also am curious about, you know, what that is. If there were things that you had to let go of that were not serving you, if there were things that kind of informed you and, and got you to where you are now. So I would love to start there if that's okay with you.

Yeah, that's wonderful. That's, that's where I always start as well. That's what the impetus for all of the work has been actually. So that's, that's a great first question. So my spiritual background is, you know, originally from my my parents immigrated from Cuba and Columbia. So that's. That's where I eventually returned, quote unquote, reclaimed, returned to, but really it started very very kind of, you know milquetoast, you know, it's just the way most people grow up with spirituality in this country is it wasn't really the primary focus of my family's life in my early childhood. We were really Encouraged to go towards education and personal development and, you know, what we wanted to be when we grew up. So, that was just something in the background. We did have, there were little reminders of things that came before we assimilated and moved to the United States. There were altars in the corners of my You know, grandmother's room. They're, you know, my aunts and uncles, they did some stuff that I kind of was aware of about, you know, the things that they would do in their prayers that were a little different than what I saw at church when we occasionally went very occasionally. So yeah, it was, we were all kind of, you know, just Plugging along our lives. It wasn't really a big question besides the, you know, really common markers of Catholicism, the, we, so we were, you know, technically Catholics. So I did the first communion and the confirmation. And it was all just like these things you take off your list, just like school. It wasn't any different. Though I did have a huge curiosity for it. So as I was in these schools CCD, we called them, they were like the afterschool Catholic programs. On Wednesdays hump day, it was, it was just like such a slog after school to go to these things, because I was truly interested in always have been a student of religion and wanted to know more and asked so many questions during these. Teachings, but the teachers just shut down anything that was like curious in the direction of like outside of their dogma. So, you know, anything that challenge challenged, you know, the, the typical tenets of who Jesus was and what, how we worship and all that stuff was kind of brushed aside and I quickly lost interest for that reason. I might have been the most astute, like, dedicated student, if it weren't for the fact that they just obviously were, you know, indoctrinating us. And I was kind of aware of that from the moment I started on that path. So I just did it kind of grudgingly just like school, the, the parts, the subjects you don't like, you know and just like the subjects I didn't like in school, it wasn't that there was no curiosity. It was that, that that curiosity wasn't nurtured. By those teachers. So I think, you know, as a suburban kid in Miami, my upbringing was pretty average when it comes to spirituality. So the moment that changed it all for me was when I started in adolescence, seeing strange things in my room and that's dun dun dun.

I know. And now you, and now you just gotta keep going because we can't just like, Breeze past that and, and, Mm-Hmm. I mean, you, you, you write about that a a lot in your book, but Yeah. so talk to us about talk to us about that. Yeah.

Yeah. And you know, now it's, you know, commonly known as sleep paralysis. I would say that that's like the general category that this falls under. It's that sensation of being paralyzed in bed, but you're fully awake. Your mind is actually fully awake, but your body hasn't yet been released from the REM cycle paralysis. And so in those moments I would see these visitors in my room and some of them were very menacing in the corners, these dark shadows. I was, you know, filled with so much fear in those moments when this would happen. And I had no idea it was a common experience until later in life. Actually, every time it would happen, I would kind of forget right away. Cause you know, I'm a kid and I got other things to think about, you know, just my friends and the books I'm reading and whatever being outside. So as soon as I would wake up, like, as far as I can tell, like looking back on this, I don't think I dwelled on any of it, but it was occurring fairly frequently in adolescence and it continued into my early twenties. So, and mid twenties and then late twenties. And it just it would come back. With full force at certain periods of my life. I think it was the periods where I was most stressed out or least centered. But it definitely started in adolescence, which is the first time that you feel, I think, completely out of whack with your body, things are just shifting and you have so many questions and no answers. And yeah, I was just experiencing this stuff. And the only time I ever Asked anybody about it was my grandmother. When I was maybe 15 or something. I asked her because she was a spirit medium in Cuba and she had let go of her practice when we moved to this country and never talked about it, just kept it under lock and key. And just like many Cubans of her generation, the first generation to immigrate to this country, a lot of them don't speak of the before times they didn't speak about the times before the revolution. They're just all about making a new life here and also pushing education and career and all that kind of stuff. Capitalism. So, you know, in line with that, when I came to her and said, you know, Abuelita. I'm seeing these things in my room. I know that you've spoken to ghosts, you know, are they ghosts who want to speak with me? Is there anything I can do? Like they are scaring me. And she just said, close your eyes and pray on the way. Pray to Jesus. Right. So it was, it was kind of like that dismissive quality that I found in the teachers and I was so disappointed because I thought, you know, like a lot of kids do, like I was on the brink of some magical door that would open for me. And then I would get all these answers and I would understand where I was in the place of all of this. And if I had any powers, you know, you, you just want to have powers when you're a teenager, right? So, cause you're, you feel so powerless and in so many other ways. And so it was really disappointing. But I did actually take her advice and do that. And pushed it away and pushed away and filtered it out as much as I could. It wasn't until many years later when they would return with full force in my late 20s that I started to really ask myself what this was and investigate it in within my larger work as an academic which was like the little seed that led me here. Okay. So what, what did my grandmother practice before she came to this country? What, what was that? And, and I learned about Espiritismo, which is a brand of spiritism that was very parallel to the kind of spiritism that was happening here in the turn of the 20, 20th century. And you know, the parlor seances, that kind of thing, which has just, you know, influenced me my whole life. I'm sitting in parlor, kind of, that I would imagine was like, kind of looks like that Victorian spiritualist parlor thing. You know, I've always wanted to honor my grandmother in that way, even though she gave it up herself.

Well, yes. And I was going to say, it sounds like you and I feel like this is sort of a theme that I want to touch on. So maybe we'll go there or not right now, but it sounds like you. So you called it sleep paralysis in the beginning, but now you're also tying it back to this, you know, this thing that's part of your lineage, right? And so I mean, how do you think about those encounters now? How do you understand them in this moment?

It's so interesting. I'm of a divided mind about it, you know to this day, I don't quite know. But I, my, you know, scientific and academic mind says, okay, this is a thing that you have found since then happens to a lot of people. Actually, it's super common. You know my mom has an undiagnosed narcolepsy that she has suffered her whole life and she would like fall asleep at the wheel and like she would wake up with night terrors and screaming and I am biologically very similar to her so and I find that I am like a very sleepy person and kind of fall into like these little trance states very easily fall asleep very easily and hallucinate and see visions, you know, very very easily. And that's all part of the, you know, diagnostic. If you were to look up like narcolepsy and sleep paralysis related to that, that's all part of that language. And we tend to see very similar things across cultures, which is interesting. So that's the part that's like, there's got to be something for me that is mystical about all this. You know, knowing that it's an observable phenomenon or not, not observable, but it's a cataloged phenomenon that happens to a lot of people doesn't take away from the mystery of it. For me, you know, it just means that it's even more mysterious because so many people are experiencing it. So what is that? And so you know, so the spiritual part of me is, you know, just attracted to this idea that it is some sort of thread to the past in some way that I don't quite understand. And that my grandmother figured out a way to harness it and communicate and be a bridge between what she was seeing and experiencing and and the people who came to her and I never took the route of training that, you know, I there's all sorts of mediumship training that you go through, but that's just never been accessible to me again. She closed that door for me and then didn't quite know how to get there. So I found that I do that work in my creative work. I do it with the sessions that I do for people in intuitive ways through astrology and tarot. And I do that for myself with writing. So there is this sense that like something unlocks and kind of goes through me while I can't explain what it is, it is there.

Yeah. I love that. And I was also thinking, as you were talking about you know, just your role as an academic and yet I wouldn't describe the book that you wrote as very academic. It doesn't feel academic to me. It feels really accessible, which I, I love. I'll also sit down and read all the academic books because I'm a geek like that. Yeah. But I guess I was thinking about how Even the assumption that like just wanting to challenge the assumption that like science and academia have to sit over here, and mysticism and spirituality need to sit over here, and that these two things can't actually interweave, or shouldn't, or even that, like let's say there's a scientific reason, like the sleep paralysis thing that you're talking about, which I've experienced as well, And, and also it's like, what is going on here? And then we do my Googling and then there's like sort of this deflated feeling of like Yeah. It's just a thing. It's just a biological function. You mean I'm not special? I'm not special. Wow. But there's the question. It's like, what if it's both? Like it's to your point, it's an observable phenomenon and in a different culture, in a different lens, it might be understood completely differently. So it's almost like the conclusion of this happens to everybody. So it's not that big a deal is it feels, it feels problematic to me, or just like an, an overreach of what the data actually says, which is this happens to a lot of people.

Yeah, I never understood that idea that because it's common, it's not important, you know and I think that's just the way, especially in America that we're culturally oriented is that what's important is the, the thing that is rare, or the person that is, you know, so out of this world special unique abilities. But really, we all retain or you know, we all express unique abilities in just mundane ways, I think. And we're all super creative people, I believe. And these things we have in common are super powerful and the way that we can organize with each other and, connect and that's extremely powerful. So I don't want to sound like a conspiracy theorist. I'm not, I'm not like there's the system that like has a consciousness that wants to keep you down, but structurally speaking, institutionally speaking, yeah, it's not to the benefit of a few who. Who, you know, get rich off of us that we all, you, we realize our collective power. And I do think that there is something about this phenomenon since it is so common that is like linked to like under the surface, subconscious, you know, collective power that we share. And if we could just connect over it, I think it would be something. You know, the work I've done so far is my small kind of gesture, my small movement toward connecting us somehow. And yeah, I totally agree with you that there isn't, shouldn't be a separation between what is considered science and what is considered magic. And I think that if you look at the history of science, we've often called things magic before we had, you know, laws to ascribe to them. We often reach to magic to understand possibility and like quantum physics is like all magic right now, you know So, I think that they're inextricably linked and I've gotten into super intense fights about this with atheist men usually so

Yeah, well and I'm I want to I want to go back to this because I want to talk about, I'm always really curious on what it's like to be an academic exploring topics of spirituality in a way that I don't think you do this in a way that feels putting it under the microscope or analyzing it to the point of like, there's almost a way where I feel like Okay, you, you call me out on this since you're the PhD and not me, but I feel like there's a way in which we can pick something apart to understand it and in the process, like, kill it or just take the life force that's there out of it. And so I am really curious about like, what's that experience been like for you as an academic? And I don't actually know what your PhD is in, but you know, I'm going to assume it's in the route of what you wrote about. Like what that's been like to kind of explore that area of spirituality and then also hold the lens of, of an academic and to do that within an academic setting.

Yeah, my PhD is in communication and I am a super weirdo that came out of left field and transferred from a different department that was actually, it was geography actually, which made a little more sense. The geography I was approaching, you know it from a spiritual lens, like the, the geography of spiritualities and especially the Afro Caribbean diaspora. And I never let that thread go. But the department I was in tanked and was gobbled up by the environmental sciences and then a hard line was drawn between what's science and what isn't and I had to really like change everything I was doing to be able to fit into this new schema. And so I defected. I was like, I can't stay here. I'm not like a, you know, quantitative person. Again, I don't want to analyze things to death, like you said, and I think that's what I had would have had to do if I'd stayed. I found a professor who was teaching a class about love. And I was just super attracted to that class and his style. And so I I went over there and was like, can I make what I'm doing fit? And he's like, yeah, we'll figure it out. It's communication. So, and my background is in communications. So, you know, there was a little bit of a connection, but honestly, I was just going to write about what I was going to write about. And I was, I'm just kind of that hardheaded kind of person. And so I don't ultimately didn't fit into academia in a way that allowed me to stay long term. So I for, you know, I forwent the whole process of the tenure track search and all that stuff. Well, I say that, but I did try a little bit and was rejected a lot. So I, I just found that that wasn't really for me because it is so narrow because you do have to devote yourself to a paradigm that has been assigned to you as a discipline. And I just never saw the point of that, you know, what I was working on cross so many disciplines. And there are cross disciplinary programs out there that I would have probably fit better. That's neither here nor there. That's a topic for another day. But you know, I, basically, just like made my own way through this PhD self funded myself through it so that I could do the work I actually wanted to do. And now I can make now with like the clear head of not being under that pressure. I can see that what I do is definitely like in the communication paradigm. I use these tools to help people communicate with themselves and each other. Astrology and tarot as a language for reflection. You know, it's it's funny how you circle background and say, yeah, yeah, I, I did. I did learn, even though I didn't fit, you know, I did use what I had, and I am the kind of person to never let anything go to waste, so I have repurposed, you know, things for my own, for my own work. So anyway, that's all to say that I, I decided that what was more important than fitting into the paradigm and writing in journals that only academics read and analyzing everything to death and making sure it ties back to the old philosophies of yore, you know, written by old white men in the sixties. I don't know. I just didn't want to do that. And so after I finished, I thought, okay, there's a seed of something here. I didn't quite get there with the PhD. I didn't quite get there all the way. So I took some time to reframe my work. into a nonfiction book proposal for the mass market. And I took the best of the writing and I kept working on it. And the best of it was really that personal lens. I think that's what like people connect to is the memoir aspect of it. And then from there I connected it to other stories. Because at that hinge point between the PhD and my book work, I realized that I was part of something larger that was happening. And that there were a lot of people who had gone through this experience of trying to return to their past and past ancestry. And we were all, there's a thread that connected to us, but we were all coming out of it in from a different tradition. And different histories and there was there was something universal and yet so specific about each of our experiences and I wanted to include as many of those voices as possible in my next work in my book. So that's what I set out to do for years after post PhD I was interviewing people around the country. The pandemic happened and. That put a wrench in things, but in some ways it, it was wonderful because people were connecting online like never before. And so it was actually quite easy, more accessible for all of us to like meet via zoom and have these conversations. And so each chapter of the book is one of their stories. And I really kept to the story format, the first person or like just their story in their own words. I didn't want to analyze anything to death. I just wanted to present their stories in their own words as much as I possibly could and connect it to these larger traditions and themes that I was exploring through my research.

Yes. And I want to I want to talk more about, you know, what you, what you covered, like some of those themes. But I think before we go there, cause I want to make sure I keep the thread of the sacred feminine. I'm like, Oh wait, this is what my show is. Yeah. I want to know if, okay. So first of all, if that language means anything to you and if it doesn't, you know, feel free to use your other, your own language. But I always like to weave that in. Like, what does that mean for you to know This aspect of spirituality or spiritual seeking or divinity through that lens of what I call the sacred feminine, but you might call something else.

Yeah, so, you know, my inspiration was. My, my grandmother. And so there is this idea of a maternal line that I see in my own story and in a lot of the practitioners that I interview and follow of, of all genders. There's this idea of I guess it's because it's like in stark contrast to the patriarchy and the male centered institutions of our world that there is this balancing maternal ancestral thing that we're all trying to connect with. Now I did have a lot of difficulties over the last 10 years as I was doing my work in community with gender essentialism and especially in circles, I would lead, you know, of people expecting all women to have the same experience, you know, all of us to have wombs, all of us to nurture children go through the experience of birth, have periods that line up with the moon cycles, you know, that kind of thing that was really, really popular for a while and still is really in moon circles. And you know, I guess I didn't investigate it very critically at first because I'm operating within it. Right. So I, I do identify as a woman, you know, I do kind of. Follow my own cycles and the cycles of the moon and all that stuff. But as I was working the circles got bigger and bigger, I realized like, oh, wait, you know, there are people who, who to them femininity means something completely different. And it's not, it's not exactly the same for all of us. And also I started to become more aware of non binary and trans And I wanted to make my circles inclusive to them as well. So I started to change the language and because of the way other people were using sacred femininity, I started to like shy away from it because I didn't want to be seen as someone who is perpetuating stereotypes about what it is to be feminine. And so, so it was, it was tricky for me, but I've since come back around now that I'm more confident in what I do and my beliefs. I have come back around to my own spiritual practice. of femininity. And I, I do really connect to some divine beings in mythology that are feminine beings. And so I think that I'm re entering it through personal practice again, and I'm still a bit hesitant about the way that I teach it, if that makes any sense.

For sure. Yeah. It's funny. I get so stubborn. I'm like, I'm just noticing this in myself. It's stubborn around the language of the sacred feminine, because, almost because of what you're saying, because I don't want it to be co opted by This gender essentialist view. I'm like, no, damn it. You don't get to take this from me And I will tell you what I mean by using this language and you don't need to use it Yeah, you say it. However you want but you don't get to take this like it's not okay To turn it into something that I feel like and from my perspective Historically is even it's just not even accurate. It's not right. It doesn't even align with what what's out there oh I can feel myself getting all feisty. Yeah, I like it I like that The fiery, yeah. Yeah, so anyways, I mean what you're saying resonates and I too have this hesitation around the language or something that's like, I want you to know that that's not what I mean and I want you to know it right from the get go and I want the words and the language so that you know that right from the get go. Like if you see what I'm doing, like you know immediately it's not this exclusionary thing and This is actually bringing up a conversation that I had with the two hosts of the Missing Witches podcast. You know, they, they've been on the show twice and and we had this conversation around the language, the sacred feminine. And I was like, I don't know, it was a tricky, you know, thing. And Amy Torok was like, well, why don't you come up with something else? Like people are making up words all the time. And I was like, you're right. Maybe I could. I have yet to do that. You know what I mean? And, and then the stubborn part of me is like, well, I don't want to have to. I want to use this language because patriarchy has given us shit options in terms of language, you know? And so I, I kind of want to reclaim it and, and use it the way I feel is right. But anyway.

Yeah, I think, I think that there's something to that because if we water everything down because we're scared of being canceled for lack of a better, I feel like that's what we're really scared of, right? It's like, you know, not just being canceled, but just not connecting to people that we would otherwise connect with because we we're using certain language that might exclude them. I, I think that patriarchy wins, you know, because ultimately then everything that we were trying to do just gets, you know, swept aside because it's not perfect. And the thing that the fact is that nothing we're doing is perfect and it never can be, but we can continue to kind of, and this is something that I also talked with Amy, the Missing Witches podcast with You know, we bumble through things, you know, we, we we're figuring out as we go along and it's okay. And so I obviously am operating as a, well, not obviously I do identify as a woman and my client base is largely women, you know? And so, yeah, we're doing something here. With the feminine. But I would like to, you know, maybe as I move forward and talk to people, you know, I've started a coven here and that's historically, you know, very female. I would like to invite the idea that this is larger than our, our bodies and how we were and what we were born with and that whether you identify as a male or female and whether you, were assigned female at birth, or, have come to identify as female later in life or whether you're non binary or, cisgender, there is this, this pull towards what flows. There's a pull, we're all coming together because we're attracted to some force that flows among us that's in response to or outside of the rigid institutions that we come from and like the restrictive forces and I think astrology helps me the most with this language because I think of the patriarchy and the structures and the restrictive nature of things as Saturn. So that's how I talk about it to people is Saturn's the daddy of the Zodiac. And there's, you know, Saturn ruled women out there and there's Saturn ruled men. And then there are other forces in astrology that connect more to the nurturing flow of things. And we need both this is, our world is, is both things. It's manifest reality, it's structures, but it's also the, those are the containers that hold our spirits. And so I think What brings us together is that spirit. However, we each experience it. That's all ever flowing. That's the mystery of things. And the Saturn is kind of like what we were talking of before is like the science and the explanations. And we do this dialectic all the time between these things. And I think that we need both of them. So I think I, I do like, in equal measure focus on both. And because maybe cause I'm a Gemini and I'm, you know, mercury person and that's the mercury is the, the go between. So like retrieves lessons from each way of being. But ultimately, yeah, why do people come to me? Why do people come to this work, the work that you do, the work that I do, these books out there, witchcraft, you know, why do people come to it? And I really do think it's like an attraction to a force that we can't catalog, we can't observe fully with our five senses, there's something else. And I guess if I were to call anything sacred feminine, it would be that.

Yeah. Oh, I love that. I really do. I, I was thinking that as you were saying that I did a talk at my former alma mater a few weeks ago and was, you know, like you have to, I'm sure you've found this you revisit your own material enough that it starts to make sense to you in a different way, or you're able to communicate it in a different way, right? I don't know if you feel that way, but that's how I felt. Oh, totally. Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that I've found myself wanting to say that I don't say in the book is that any picture that we have of spirit or God that is just one expression is incomplete. Like it's just incomplete. And so for me, the reclamation Has been the feminine, right? Because I grew up in a Southern Baptist household. So God, God was a man. I mean, there was definitely no questions about that. So that piece was like the first one that has shown up really, really loud. And it's almost like she's just kicked the door open and it's been like, yeah, but it's everything. It's trees outside. It is the bird. It's the, it's the wind. It is like the blood rushing in your body, like that. Is spirit, you know, so any, any vision that we have of divinity that doesn't include all of that is just not complete, I think. And so what I wonder about is, Is the flowing piece for me, or like the God in all things, the feminine, or is she just the door kicker? Like, she's just the one who's like, let me open the door so that you can see all this. I don't know. I don't think I have to know, you know? I mean, whatever. She's got a great role no matter what, but.

Yeah, it's a, it's a mystery.

It's a fricking mystery.

Yeah. I, I think that, you know, from my experience using astrology primarily as my mode with clients, there are so many archetypes out there. And we connect with certain ones at certain parts of our lives, you know, and because we are born into these bodies that have these dongles and bubbles and just to be silly about it, you know, like we throughout history, throughout cultures have Projected our form onto things.

Yes.

So, I do think Which is all we

can really do. Right? Like, I mean, right. do.

Yeah. And so, I think if we're projecting, like the masculine parts of us, as the ones that connect to like these rigid institutions that like not to say that there's like, there's no value judge moral judgment here like what we call the quote unquote masculine is very important too, it's the things that hold us together, the containers and the, the restrictions are sometimes these useful, sometimes oppressive. It just depends on the context, right? And so if we're, you know, I feel like maybe we project part of ourselves that are like bound to this manifest reality as masculine and maybe the parts of ourselves that are mysterious and flowing inside our emotions and our creativity and our urges and everything that hasn't yet been like written in stone is I think what we usually refer to as the feminine, but again, it's like, it's imperfect because we're just, we're just projecting what we are.

Into

out there. Yeah. And if we maybe were different beings, like if we were like blobs with both sexes and like eight tentacles and, you know, if we just look different, then we might not even call it that we might call it like, I don't know. Yeah. The tentacle divine.

Which, maybe that's where we're headed, who knows? Like evolutionarily speaking, I guess we could become that.

Yeah. Like amoeba, if we were amoebas, then our divine beings would look very different and maybe not have the same kind of genders is all I'm saying. So, but the reality is we do have this reality and you know, most of us have been raised with this dichotomy, you know, between male and female, you know, these gender differences. And I think it's a, it's a discussion worth having because it is like part of our realities and it, it really like affects us all the time, you know, and especially women and those that identify as women

in the most

inclusive way possible. Like we all, we're coming up against this conundrum all the time. What does it mean to be a woman in this world?

Yeah. And I, I think I just, one other thing about that, that I wanted to name based on my own experience in a priestess initiation circle that I was in for a year. It was very intense and very powerful. And there was a man that was in that group and I was initially very resistant because I just, you know, I'm carrying my own trauma. I'm like here to learn about the feminine, like who the hell is this guy? Why is he here? His presence in that circle was transformational. And I, what I learned from that is that so much is possible with a clear agreement field. Here's the container that we agree to hold together. Here's what we are okay with and what we're not okay with. And and also when you are committed to, Oh, okay. All right. Let me see if I'm going to tread into this one. We, we'll see how this comes out. Yeah. And people can always call me out if I mess this up. I'm okay with it.

This is all an experiment right now. Right? We're just trying to,

we're

trying to figure it out here in real time, everyone. Yeah,

but there is something about fully stepping into your power. And there are some ways in which women absolutely have not been able to do that. And institutions and systems and family structures and All kinds of things, especially for non white women that have made it hard to do that. So I, I am not saying that that doesn't exist. However, I also think that there, there's a way that I'll just speak for me. That'll make it safer. I'll speak for me, where I'm carrying perhaps the trauma of my own ancestors. I'm looking around at the world and I'm thinking that I actually don't have as much power as I do, or that there are systems that are in place that are holding me back that I haven't pushed at hard enough to be like, is this really true? Do I have more agency right in this moment than what I've told myself that I have? And I think it's a white woman with well educated and money. That's absolutely true. And and so to be in a container like this priestess circle, which is all about stepping into your full power. And to be like, no, there's a clear agreement field. So we all know why we're here and I'm going to hold it just as much as everybody else. Then suddenly there's safety and there's just possibilities kind of exploding everywhere that I never imagined. And it was beautiful and so incredibly empowering. And now you can tell me if I stepped in it or not.

No, I don't think you did. So I like, I think the important thing there, like the, the word agreement is what stood out is, are we all okay with this? I do really believe in the power of exclusive spaces that are agreed upon for just, you know, one group of people. So like a woman only space. that is held sacred, gay only spaces, people of color, you know, black only spaces. I believe in the power of those spaces and I respect the exclusivity and like that, that I don't belong in some of them. And so I would have questions for the man that was in your circle for sure. Cause you know but if it was, you know, if it was agreed upon by every member there that it was okay, then it's okay. Right. But but there are places, you know, circles and, and, and places where there, it is more exclusive. And in the spiritual world, there are like traditions that are closed and I write about those. And you know, I think it's important to respect. People's boundaries around there because a lot of power does happen within those groups when they don't have the outside eye, you know, and like when everybody identifies as the same community. And of course we all come from many different communities I'm not just a woman I'm a Latina woman, no, I identify as a witch. I'm a certain age group so there's just so many different. Floating identities. And so it's, it's never going to be perfect just because you're in a room with only, people who identify as women doesn't mean that it's a homogenous group by any means. I guess it's, it's complicated, but I think consent and agreement is important as everything, you know, what are we doing here together? And are we all like committed? To this I think is the most important thing. And as I go forward, though, I used to do women only circles and, you know, women only circles that included anybody who identified as a woman. I have since opened it to anyone because I think that whoever is being called to come to my groups, should be there. And what connects us and our commitment and our agreement is to what we're doing there and accepting each other. You know, in all of our differences. And can we call that kind of mode sacred feminine? I don't know. Can we? Maybe. The witch. The witch. The witch. The witch is like, you know archetype, archetypally feminine. And it doesn't mean you can't be a male witch. There's lots of male witches.

Yes. And this is the big lesson for me that I have attributed to the sacred feminine is the idea of yes and like just stop with the binary either or like it's yes, there's some truth there and there's some truth here and like let's just let them multiply instead of trying to put it under the microscope and just pull it down to its smallest parts, like just keep like letting it get bigger, you know, and like, let us stretch like our containers just keep going bigger, bigger, bigger. So we could hold all of it too, rather than like.

Yeah, that's the opposite of

Saturn to me. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a, it's a malleable growing network. I think of mushrooms, you know, in the mycelium and the organic connections. And I feel like that you know, if maybe, maybe Divine Feminine and Divine Masculine are just scaffolding for us and until we understand what we're really talking about. And I think what it is, is the difference between an organic network of nurturing and more like authoritarian vision of the world. Is we're fighting against and because at this moment in time, the authoritarian vision has corrupted and it's causing a lot of harm out there in the world. And, has historically been held by, and has historically been held by men in power. And that's just the facts. And so is there anything like truly Like masculine about that? Maybe not. Is there anything truly feminine about what we're doing? Maybe not. But like, that's just, that's just our perception. Our, like, that's, that's where we're coming from. That's how we're viewing it. And that's important. And so we can't throw it away. Just 'cause not perfect. Yes. 'cause it's doing, 'cause it's doing good work and there are always going to be missteps. Like, we're gonna step in it, we're gonna do it wrong. You know, like, we're gonna exclude people and like harm people sometimes. Accidentally hopefully accidentally, you know, and hopefully we can reflect and like, make amends and carry on. Instead of throwing the baby out with the bathwater and saying this whole experiment is wrong. And let's just shut it all down, like, there's still something that we that pulls us together in this kind of way that keeps attracting us to each other in this kind of way circles instead of hierarchies.

Yeah. I was just thinking of like muddling through and I don't know the etymology of that word. I'm going to have to look it up now, but I was thinking of mud and like how mud to me is right. Like it's thick and sticky and like, we just, but it's also like, that's the feminine to me, you know, or like, like, we're just like, we're in the right place. Like if we're like at mud squishing between our toes and stuff, as we muddle through this, it's a good thing. It's all a good thing.

Yeah. And I think of organic and what's happening under the surface. And I think of Our muddling through is, you know, disturbing the ground and then maybe something else might come out of it. Because we're stimulating something together. Yes. Yeah, I was just part of a protest this last weekend. You know, the international protest for Gaza. Same. And just saw, you know, like how we are all doing that. We're feet on the ground muddling things up. Not really understanding everything, but maybe we're not even all on the same page, but we're together.

Well, and this is. I just, I love how these conversations flow because sometimes it just requires, I feel like it requires nothing of me except just to show up, you know, like engage. And so this, this just happens. Tease up. I think this is perfect with the last question I want to ask you, which is about like, you really talk about sacred activism in your book. And that deeply resonates with me. Like that for me is part of the work of the sacred feminine. It is not just let me buy a bunch of crystals and no offense to people who love your crystals. I'm not dissing you, but you know, it is not about, um, Just personal development like let's make me feel good about me, and I'm gonna stop there Like I really think it's about how does it ripple out into the world? And so I know that's something that you write about too, but I wonder if you could reflect a little bit On that you know and on your thoughts on that and how that kind of came through how it comes through in your life And how it came through in your book

Yeah, I call it spiritual activism. And I think, yeah, same thing, sacred activism. Well, it's not my term. I learned it from Gloria Anzaldúa. And she writes about it as, you know, the, the force within us that extends outward. and connects to others. And our spiritual enhancement and growth is incomplete without that connection. And that's why I think of networks all the time is that's what really matters is where we are working on ourselves for the purpose of collective growth and healing. That is what it's all about. And so if we're, if we're doing it at the expense of others, but even not that far, maybe it's not even at the expenses or just at the ignorance or apathy of others about others it's just incomplete work. And it's just like any drug that makes you feel good, like spirituality can feel really good if it's like, you know, you're reading things that really resonate with you and you're going to yoga and you're breathing deeply and your body feels great. But it's also hard work because you're like illuminating your baddies and the patterns of the past that might be detrimental to you. And, you know, we talk about this as shadow work that we've, you know, we've kind of taken that from psychology. And when we do this, we connect to others who are doing the same work and we bumble through it together and we like, figure it out and like, probably make a mess of things. And like people listening to me trying to explain the sacred feminine before probably like what the hell, you know, it just doesn't make sense all the time. And it's just It's important to do that without the expectation of a particular outcome for yourself, it's more about connecting to others and lending a hand and like helping others figure it out and, helping others in need. And that's, that's what my whole life is about. And I have foregone some good pay and some security and stability because I really do believe in that work of making myself available to others and helping them with the hard things in their lives and connecting and community and mutual aid. Networks that might grow to, you know, anytime we've got a mushroom pop out, like, you know, a success, it's because of that mycelial network that we did for years and under the mud and the dirt that didn't seem like it was for anything. And it turns out to change things.

I love that. Yeah. And that we can't always see it when we're, we're in it. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Lorraine, this has been so fun. Thank you so much. I just feel like time's like whoosh. Oh yeah. So fast. It's already been an hour. I know. I know. So Lorraine's book is Brujas, the magic and power of witches of color. I will make sure to put a link in To it in the show notes and then tell us how people can find you if they want to learn more about you and all the cool things that you're doing.

Best way to find me is on Instagram at the moment at witchy heights. I too am a slow adopter of the ticky talkies, so

thank you for making me feel better. Okay.

Yeah, I am trying to get on there this, this year, I will. Witch Tok is a huge thing so maybe with some help I can, I can get going on there. But for now, Instagram at Witchy Heights is the best way to do it. To connect with me on social. And I do have a website, witchy heights. com where you can check out my offerings. I'm going to start a year long class series on ritual astrology and the way you can learn your birth chart and also connected to some rituals you can do at home. And that will be available online as well as in person in St. Pete or the Tampa Bay area. If you happen to be here, or if you happen to be in Florida, I want to take a

Super cool. Thank you so much. This has really, really, really been fun. Thank you so much. Yeah. Yeah. And thanks to all of you as always for listening. I'm so glad you show up So you get bored of me saying the same thing over and over you probably do if you listen to this a lot but I do always like want to close these with just saying like I I would have these conversations even if you weren't there because they make me really happy but The fact that you are tuning in makes it more likely that cool people like Lorraine will show up and talk to me. And I like sharing it with you. So I'm super grateful that you're along for the ride. And if you like this show, you can do a few things. You can leave it a favorable review. You can tell all your friends about it. You can subscribe to it. You can do all those things. And until next time, take really good care of yourself, keep muddling through, and I'll talk to you again soon.

Home to Her is hosted by me, Liz Kelly. You can visit me online at hometoher. com, where you can find show notes and other episodes. You can read articles about the Sacred Feminine, and you'll also find a link to join the Home to Her Facebook group for lots more discussion and exploration of Her. You can also follow me on Instagram, at home to her, to keep up to date with the latest episodes. Thanks so much for joining us and we'll see you back here soon.