We haven't put anything related in the.

Time capsule like that. We've never. We've not put anything in related to Covid. That's a big omission.

I did think maybe I could should put Covid in, but I just thought it was too dangerous.

Welcome to America, a history podcast. I'm Liam Heffernan and. And every week we answer a different question to understand the people, the places and the events that make the USA what it is today. On this day in 1938, the World's Fair came to Flushing Meadows park in New York City. It's here that the Westinghouse time capsules were buried underground to be opened in 5,000 years time. Its contents include a copy of Life magazine, a packet of Camel cigarettes, a dictionary and a variety of seeds. So this week we are going to curate our own time capsule to reflect the 21st century United States as accurately as possible for anybody who might find this podcast in 5,000 years. And to do this, I'm joined by a few familiar voices from the show. So, firstly, Dr. Emmelong. Hello. Hi, Liam, how are you doing?

Yeah, good, thank you. We haven't spoken in a while. It's good to see you.

It has been a while. Yeah. I need to. I need to get you back, so. Yeah, emails incoming. Also, Dr. Nick Grant. Hello.

Hi, Liam. Thanks for having us back and nice to see you.

Yes, good to see you again. I feel like now that September's kicked in as we're recording this and university is back, just the, the busyness and the craziness is just in full swing now.

Yeah, it's a bit much with the inbox, but it's looking, looking forward to getting back into the classroom.

And also Professor Rebecca Fraser. Hello.

Hello, hello. Pleased to be back again. And, and you're right, Liam, that September is a bit of a busy month for us academics, so. So, yeah. But I'm so, so pleased that you've, you've asked us and to be on this particular episode.

Yeah, no, hopefully. Well, it's going to be a bit different from our. From our usual ones, but let's see what we get out of this, I guess. So, firstly, before we build our own time capsule, you're all historians here, so I'm going to assume that you love a good old time capsule.

I was thinking about this. I do love a good time capsule. I remember being very captured by that idea when I was younger and I remember having a very good primary school teacher who, like, we were studying the Romans and she, like, made her own Time capsule. And then like we had to open it and she put stuff in there that was all about Roman culture. So I think that might be one of my first like formative memories. When it comes to like studying the past. I have somewhere like lodged in the back of my head. The other thing I remember was I think in the year 2000 all like the school kids in Tyne and Weir in Northumberland had to do a times capsule to commemorate the millennium or something like that. And I remember writing something, you had to wr something about what the world would look like in 100 years time. I probably wrote something kind of naff about like Newcastle United being a successful football team and jet packs or something. But I do remember that. So yeah, those are, those, those are pretty formative memories for me. I was kind of racking my brains. I was like, yeah, actually maybe that did pique an interest in studying history potentially.

The jetpacks aren't so far fetched. I mean they're pretty much happening now, right?

Yeah, well, we promised jet packs for a long time so it's about time they got around to actually doing it.

Yeah, yeah. Becky, Emma, have you ever done a time capsule before?

I remember doing one, I think for Blue Peter years ago when I was like, you know, sort of you had to like write in and suggest what. And I think I put a Barbie doll in there which you know, sort of says so much about, you know, sort of what I. What I've now gone on and done in terms of my interest in gender. And I think one night we had, in my 20s, we had a kind of drunken conversation about, you know, sort of what we would put in a time capsule. But this was very late at night and I don't think it's probably wise to repeat what we said. But yeah, so nothing like, you know, sort of Nick's ideas around the kind of formative and grounding as an historian. I mean that's, you know, sort of speaks to Nick's brilliance but you know, sort of just a Blue Peter and I didn't even get a Blue Peter badge for, you know, sort of jockeying.

I thought that was just standard.

I don't know, we did the most amount of bringing buy sales as well and like just nothing.

So yeah, good old BBC budget cuts.

Now I really want to know what that late night conversation was. But yeah, I mean talk about the most boring one last. I've never done a time capsule nor really had discussions about it. The only thing I remember, and I think probably because Becky and I are about the the same age is the Blue Peter ones that they would periodically do. And so sort of seeing it at a distance, sort of what other people were putting in rather than actually having done it myself. So this is, this is my, my first virtual one, which I think is, is definitely a good way to start. Maybe, maybe I'm going to start a Trend. And every 10 years I'll bury something in my garden to dig up or for the neighbors or for the people who own my house next to dig up once I'm gone.

That's the start of a true crime documentary. Isn't.

Depends what we're planning on putting in the box, I suppose.

Okay, right, let's, let's dive into this then. So the whole point of this is for us to kind of slightly, tongue in cheek, curate a US time capsule that would reflect today's America. So you've all had a think and you're all bringing some suggestions to the table. We're going to run through them, have a discussion about them, and hopefully by the end of this have some sort of curated list of time capsule items. So, Becky, I'm going to throw to you first. What are you putting in?

Okay, so the Twitter bird. So the icon, you know, the symbol of the Twitter bird. Just because I think it's cute. Right. But also, you know, sort of, I have to say something intellectual about, you know, sort of what this means in America. So. But I also think it's very cute. And all seasons of Elisabeth Moss's adaptation of the Handmaid's Tale with Margaret Atwood's book, the Handmaid's Tale, published In, I think, 1987, but also her newer one, the Testaments, which is also going to be adapted for TV and I think will be phenomenal. So, yeah, that's, that's me.

I feel like if anyone like sees the Handmaid's tale in like 5,000 years, though, they're going to think like, what kind of like, messed up sort of world were we living in? And also, would they even realize that that isn't what life was actually like?

Well, you know, sort of Margaret Atwoods wrote Handmaid's Tale and all of the sort of storyline that she pulled out of particular examples and incidents, they're all drawn from reality. Right. So this isn't, you know, sort of fiction.

So.

And then I think Elisabeth Moss did such. I mean, like, it was, you know, sort of extended from the original book and I think, you know, sort of there was not so much of a love kind of triangle that had that developed. But I think it's still actually much more relevant now in 2025 in the US given, you know, sort of what we're seeing with restrictions around reproductive rights, the rolling back of Roe vs. Wade, the kind of rolled into that, the way in which we're, you know, sort of demanding to see, you know, sort of the Epstein files, when actually, you know, sort of we have the survivors, right. So listening to, you know, so the women rather than, you know, sort of. And the Handmaid's Tale narrates Jean's story as valid as true. And at the end, there's these. The professors in, in the kind of, you know, sort of the future sort of debating because they found this kind of archive in the files and, you know, sort of in the tape and, you know, they're saying, well, you know, sort of this, you know, we can't trace this woman, but, you know, sort of is it true? Is it not? But actually, you know, sort of her voice needs to be heard. And I think, you know, sort of as well, really, really important. And it's a message that Atwood is continuously speaking about in relation to, you know, sort of women's rights, you know, sort of feminism. Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them. Right. You know, that's, that's the outward quote, right. So, you know, so I really think it's just, you know, essential viewing in sort of 5,000 years. And actually, in fact, you know, who's to say what's going to be the situation in, you know, sort of 5,000.

Years going to be like in five years with Trump, Right?

I think there's also a connection thinking about the present day that's perhaps even more relevant now as the, that the Handmaid's Tale, the show has come to an end than perhaps it was Even back in 2016 when it started, which is the rise of Christian nationalism or particularly white Christian nationalism. And I think this comes through more in the series than it does in the book. But it's been a very long time since I read the, the book. The kind of, the. The religious themes of Gilead, right, And how that is used as justification for the events for the creation of Gilead and the, the, you know, the. The way in which the society runs and thinking about, you know, initially white evangelical support for, for Trump, but even more so in this administration, kind of the, the rhetoric of religion and, and faith and thinking about some of the. Without opening up a whole other area of discussion, some of the rhetoric that's come out after the. The shooting of Charlie Kirk last. Last week and the kind of response to that, particularly in religious terms, I think there's. As well as the. The gender side of. Of things and the. The question about, you know, believing women and the role of women and women's narratives in this. I think there's the religious element as well. That really struck me just. I've just finished watching the final season and it just really struck me repeatedly as I watched those episodes.

Of course, Emma, it's one insane, right, women's narratives and sort of the ways in which, you know, so. And you're so right in the sense that the TV series brought out the kind of. The religious kind of fervor of, you know, sort of the building of Gilead. But then, you know, sort of we have the development of new Bethlehem and, you know, sort of this new, you know, so kind of, you know, sort of, oh, it'd be better. It'd be better. So, you know. But actually, you know, sort of, I think, you know, sort of women's voices are also lost within, you know, sort of that kind of conservative evangelical religion anyway. So, you know, sort of it's one in the same.

Yeah. I'm just thinking about, if listeners are interested, there's a really good book that came out a few years ago by Beth Allison Barr called the Making of Biblical Womanhood. She comes out of the evangelical tradition, but she's a. She's an academic historian of the medieval period, I think, and she wrote this book about the subvert, you know, the subverting of female voices within evangelicalism, and that it's. It's sort of essential to the way in which evangelicalism works. So it. It strikes me it ties all of those things together, actually, in a really clever way.

I think what I really like about the Handmaid's Tale, though, is that I don't think it's about indoctrination or brainwashing in the way that you think sometimes, you know, organized religions or cults are. I think it's about repression because actually, a lot of the characters in the Handmaid's Tale, they don't really buy into it. They're conforming for their own safety. And you see that either through the hypocrisy of the people that are laying down the law or through the dissent or, you know, the discreet dissent of those who are finding ways to cope.

You know, I also think it's about fear, right. So you're too frightened to step out of line. And this is what is so brilliant about June and the other women that actually, they do resist. There's a great line, and I can't do the Latin, and I'm not gonna say it on the podcast, but this idea of not letting them grind you down, right? So that, you know, even those small resistance that, you know, sort of are essential. And of course, you know, sort of in another, you know, academic life, I look at slavery and the experiences of the enslaved, and of course, you know, sort of everyday acts of resistance are vital. So, you know, sort of thinking about those everyday acts, you know, sort of scratching you know, a message in the wardrobe that nobody else will see, that, you know, sort of from a former handmaid so that June sees it, you know, sort of entraces it, and, you know, sort of. And that message is vital. And so, you know, sort of. I do think it's also about power and privilege and using evangelical Christianity to claim that power and, you know, and create this, you know, monster of a society, then we need to resist. And I think that's the main message of Atwood's book, that actually, you know, if you don't resist, what is gonna happen? Right? So I think it's also about power and privilege and the ways in which we resist that power.

A very important message today, I think. But I just want to quickly dwell on the Twitter bird, because I think, yeah, I'm absolutely on board of having something that sort of reflects the sort of the social media of today. But I think there's something a lot more poignant about the Twitter bird than just like, here's an example of social media and communication in today's world. Because obviously, with the politics behind Twitter recently, and obviously it's not Twitter anymore, it's X. I think there's, you know, there's a lot more to say there about Elon Musk, about, you know, US politics about money and, you know, that sort of greed culture in the top, kind of 1%. So I think I'm absolutely on board with that. I love that.

Yeah, absolutely. And not just because it's cute. Right? I mean, the Twitter. I mean, we all. I mean, who doesn't call it Twitter anymore? I mean, like, you know, sort of X doesn't, you know, sort of roll off the tongue as well. But you're so right, Liam, that you, you know, sort of. There's a whole lot more to unpack with the politics behind the Twitter, you know, sort of bird. But actually, you know, sort of the politics that Twitter has created and Elon Musk going in, buying up Twitter, you Know, sort of. And then moving on to that, you know, sort of role in Trump's government where, you know, so he was an unelected, you know, sort of official. Right. And so, so there's a sort of probably that deserves another podcast. But. But I think, you know, so there is loads to unpack in terms of. But just in terms of social media, how social media has changed how we do things. Right. It's changed how we communicate, it's changed how even we think about things. AI. It's a whole, you know, sort of new world. So.

So yeah, I was interested about the Twitter selection. Is it. I mean, we shouldn't romanticize Twitter before it became X because it was also a bit of a cesspit then. But is there something like about the mourning, the death of the Twitter bird and when there were these moments of like, oh, I'm gonna share ideas with like minded people and create a discussion in the community. And now it's like owned by a tech billionaire advising the Trump government now falling out, who's obsessed with AI and wants to put people in space. And is there something about that that kind of shows a rapid, like, decline of some of the more utopian ideas about communication that maybe we first had when we joined Twitter? Like, I don't know how old Twitter is now, but like, I feel like I was probably on Twitter about 10 years ago or so or something like that, that rapid kind of shift into something that's become much more authoritarian and about tramping three speech no matter what, and has given rise to all these people like Charlie Kirk who was mentioned. Right. Like in that kind of social media, those viral snippets about has given rise to a whole new bunch of people and given them platforms. Right. As well. So yeah. Is it the mourning, the death of the Twitter bird into X or is it. Yeah, I don't know.

I also remember like the hashtag just wasn't a thing before Twitter. Like, I remember watching TV in like 2011 and suddenly at the start of the ad breaks, there was like, oh, hashtag, like whatever the program was called. And it was like, oh, that's, that's a new thing. And that's. That was because of Twitter, right? That's. That, that's very much something that they instilled. And now it's just, it's a, it's just a part of our language almost. Right.

And also sort of every time so, you know, sort of Ricky Hatton passed yesterday and the news sources are from Twitter or X or whatever it is. So it's all social media, so no one's going to interview people anymore. No one's going to, you know, sort of. It's all you, sort of. So it's, it's really interesting the ways in which we are now completely reliant on social media. And as an historian of the 19th century, this really pains me because what is going to be in the archive in 10, 20, 30 years time? Well, this time capsule, perhaps so, but it really, you know, sort of the death of epistolary culture. So letter writing is, is something that I think we kind of will mourn much more than, you know, the loss of the Twitter bird. But it won't be apparent until like years later.

Emma, let's throw to you, what are you putting in?

Okay, so I'm not sure mine are quite so interesting in many ways. So my two things or suggestions for the, for the time capsule box. So the first, reflecting the fact that I'm kind of lean towards the sort of political history, is the congressional report on the January 6, 2021 Capitol riots and the collective footage of that event. Because I think there's nothing like actually watching what happened to really get a sense of kind of the violence of it and the physicality and the shock of watching it. And it seems to me that if you want to understand something about 21st century American politics, it is kind of, it's a definitive event in terms of the divisions which led to it. Not just the whole sort of conspiracy theory, Trump won the 2020 election or it was stolen or whatever, but the kind of the deep political divisions between factions that allowed people to think that, and then the handling of it and the fallout of it afterwards in terms of everything from the congressional hearing itself and the politics around that, the way the findings have been dismissed and politicized all the way through to Trump in his recent sort of, as he took office early this year in 2025, pardoning the January 6 rioters and the narrative that has been spun about that of them as kind of political prisoners and not guilty of anything except holding were, you know, views deemed unpopular. So this playing down of the, the reality of what happened that that day. So, yeah, that's, that's, that's kind of my, if you like, my politics suggestion. And then taking cue from, from Becky, my sort of more cultural one is the re recorded collection of Taylor Swift's albums, which is a way of saying, really my. I'm trying to symbolize Taylor Swift in a way, since we can't actually put her in the time Capsule because that's just a bad thing to do. Right. And I should. It's probably worth putting it out there and so say I'm not a Swiftie. I'm not an anti Swiftie either just for the record. But I'm not a huge, huge fan from that point of view. But I think as a. Her cultural importance both in terms of the music but also as a young woman negotiating a male dominated music industry and the way she's taken control of her own, of her image and sort of her social media thinking about that side of things, but also her music with the buying back, right. Using her success to buy back the rights to her own music and sort of re recording those. All the things that she does that have slowly come out about supporting charities in the areas where she's holding concerts that she does quite quietly, supporting the people who work for her as part of it in generous ways that we don't always also don't hear about but often hear the opposite of from people. It seems to me that this is like a positive representation of ambition, right? So this isn't a kind of. This is someone who is ambitious and successful, but ambitious not in a traditionally male climb over everybody hit them when they're down to get to the top way, but as a way of being successful while supporting the people who help you get there. So it seemed to me that there were lots of reasons to think of Taylor Swift as a good representation of a current moment.

Fair enough. I mean Becky, you have a teenage daughter which is like prime Taylor Swift audience. What are your thoughts on that?

Well, I mean we went to see the Eras tour down in London and it was my daughter's first concert and she was 15. She was just mesmerized. But actually this woman works so hard. I mean it was a three hour concert, no kind of breaks in between or. And you know, and it was full on, you know, sort of. It was amazing. And I'm not, I mean like I like Taylor Swift and you know, I learned the words to all of her songs before. Before we. We went so that I wasn't standing looking silly. But this idea of Taylor's version. So she re recorded all of her, you know, sort of albums, right. Scooter Braun had purchased them when she was young and you know, sort of. And not really knowing, you know, sort of what. What was at stake. And so he owned everything. And the fact that she took that back and said right, I'm gonna just re record my own versions is just phenomenal. I mean you need the money to do it. Right. But I just think that she's an amazing role model. Young, you know, sort of women and young men, really kind of she's a role model. And I think having a role model like that is not a bad thing. Thing, actually, like Emma has said, it's. She's ambitious. Right. But it's ambitious in ways that don't involve trampling on, you know, sort of people to get where she wants to get. And I think actually more and more, the music industry is filling up with young women actually, like this. So, you know, sort of. And. And she's supporting, you know, sort of charities, and she recently gave quite a bit of money to the flood victims in Texas. And, you know, sort of Travis Kelce has done, you know, sort of her fiance has, you know, done. So it just, you know, it's really, really a positive element in a really dark world at the moment.

Yeah, I think. I think our time capsule definitely has certain. Certain themes, and everything somehow seems to come back to Trump in one way or another. But Taylor Swift is maybe a nice exception to the rule in what we're putting in. Yeah. And also just a real kind of reflection as to just what's, like, just culturally popular today as well. But I have a question about the January 6th house report. Not so much about putting it in, because it's clearly a really important moment, but do you think that January 6th will be the sort of defining moment of the Trump era and the one that will or should be remembered in years to come?

Will it? I think it depends what happens in the next three years, to be perfectly honest. Should it be? In some ways, yes, and in others, no. Which is a nice sitting on the fence answer that my students would be proud of. I think I see it more as kind of a starting point for thinking about the nature of American politics at this particular moment in time. Because it's an explosion of a whole range of things that led up to that and then the kind of the aftermath of it. So it's not just the events of that per se, or in fact, the report, because the report misses a lot of things. For example, it completely overlooks white Christian nationalism as a factor that plays a role it steered so far clearer. I think in the entire report, it mentions it three times. So I'm not saying that it's perfect, and that's why I'm putting it in simply that it would be the starting point for someone to go, okay, what's this about? What happened? How did we leave up to it? But I think it tells us important things about certainly Trump's comeback. I think about, also about the way that he managed to get so many people on board with Trumpism, forget the Republican Party with MAGA and Trumpism, to the extent that they would believe that having lost the election, it was evidence of election tampering, that he had built up such a following of people who were willing to go down that path and have continued to go down that, that path and the success of, of that in helping him get re elected again back last November when for most candidates the, the loss of the election, that first time round would have sort of been the end of that political chapter of their, their lives. So I think it's, it's symbolic of a lot of themes rather than just being the thing in and of itself.

And of course Trump, you know, was, he's only the second president to actually have come back and won non consecutive terms. That in itself, you know, kind of proves your point. But I, you, you sort of mentioned we haven't really. And the report itself didn't really touch on sort of the white sort of nationalist angle. And I think as a whole so far what we've contributed to the time capsule has been sort of really reflective of maybe some of the gender disparity in today's world. I'm hoping, knowing what you're an expert in, Nick, that you're going to be able to bring some conversations about race and some of those other issues into the time capsule here. So I'm going to throw to you.

I think, yeah, it's looking like quite a fascistic time capsule at the moment, which I think is only accurate for the times that we're living in. So I was a bit cheeky and I've put three forward and they are kind of following Emma a little bit in terms of thinking about the political history side of things. So I'll briefly say what I think should go in and why they might be connected, although I haven't fully thought this through and they might not actually be that connected. So you can see throw all of these things out if you want. Right. So my first thing that I thought would be useful to put in and they're all kind of from 2016ish is Michelle Obama's speech at the Democratic National Convention. When they go low, we go high, which I've put in there. It's a good message. Right. It's the kind of thing that we, we kind of talk to our children about to say like, look, take them all high ground, plow Your own furrow, be responsible for your own kind of actions. Don't get dragged down by other people. Right. So there's something admirable about that. But I'm quite critical of that in terms of how it's been used. It kind of became the de facto call of the Clinton campaign against Trump. That idea of like, look, we're the grown ups in the room, we're going to be responsible. This guy is just kind of crazy. Just forget about him. You don't really want him running the United States. All of which I agree with, but I don't think met the kind of moment in a way, and maybe something tells us something about failures of the Democratic Party and liberalism more broadly. The second document that I'd like to put in there kind of contrasts that a little bit. So you have the rise of the Black Lives Matter movement after the killing of Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown and others. And in 2016, a range of different kind of grassroots black organizations in the United States came together and put together a policy platform which was about 40 plus pages, had six key demands, which was reparations, divestment from the military and police, but kind of went beyond issues to do with policing and the militarization of the police, and talked about investment in low income communities, health care and education. There's a real systemic reimagining of the American democratic system and the American capitalistic system rooted in anti racism. So you've got Michelle Obama, wife of the first black president, talking about, when they go low, we go high. Let's be the sensible people in the room. You've got Black Lives Matter fundamentally trying to transform what kind of nation America looks like. So there's those two things which I think are an interesting contrast. And the third one is a little bit kind of out there and it's Trump's golden toilet. I mean, I could put anything to do with Trump. I think Trump is the other kind of thing there. So around about 2016, it was getting press coverage. I can't remember exactly where it came from, but it became a bit of a symbol of his presidential campaign. So in Trump Tower, essentially, I think it's from a photo shoot, people spot that he's got this golden toilet, this kind of Louis Louis, the 14th style, kind of gaudy marble and gold leaf aesthetic. And I think that says something about what's going on as well, in terms of displays of wealth, displays of power, displays of dominance. And we kind of dismissed that as like, what a kind of vain and arrogant self centered man. What a Ridiculous, man. He has a golden toilet in his. You know, that's of kind. That's ridiculous. And I think that's reflected in Obama's speech, like, about going low and going high. But I don't think takes Trumpism seriously in 2016. Right. So I've got a way of trying to connect these and bear with me with that. I think Obama's speech and then Clinton, and I think arguably Kamala Harris is kind of playing on that when she's running against Trump. Treats Trumpism as, like, a problem to do with, like, decorum and manners, rather than recognizing it as a form of fascist politics, which I think it is. And I think liberals in the Democratic Party specifically missed how Trump's cruelty and rule breaking are actually central to his appeal. Right. They demonstrate, like, power to his followers who felt powerless. And I think this repealing to the moral high ground, this idea of being of, like, returning to Democratic norms, of being the adult in the room, missed that moment. And I'm reluctant to criticize Michelle Obama. I'm not criticizing her personally, but I think that speech and the way that that became the mantra of the Democratic Party symbolizes for me a massive failure of, like, liberal Democratic politics in the face of fascism. So I think that's connected, if you link that to the Black Lives Matter policy document, that's a grassroots structural reworking of American society, which by the right was termed un American and radical and dangerous and treasonous potentially, and by the left was dismissed. Right. So you have this alternative out there which is kind of crushed on both sides of the political spectrum. And we can kind of think about Black Lives Matter and the aftermath of that and where that currently is. But what we're seeing now is very much a kind of backlash to that. And then finally, we've got the toilet, right? The golden toilet. And we've got this president who literally sits upon a golden throne when he's back in. In Trump Tower doing his business. And I'll leave that image with you. And I think that golden toilet is central, in a way, to his fascist, authoritarian message is this ostentatious display of wealth, which is about power and domination, as I've already said, and visualizing how those who follow him can participate in that politics of domination and accumulate wealth and power and agency for themselves at the expense of other people. So I think by mashing all of those bizarre examples again, and particularly maybe that 2016 moment and that first Trump campaign, for me, it makes me really angry and points to the failure of liberalism, of Democratic liberalism, of the Democratic Party to fully take seriously and recognize what we were seeing on the ground with the rise of Trumpism. And it makes me genuinely scared for the future as well. So I think, like, why I'm putting those three things together is to kind of try and trace that shift in a political moment where people who are left of center and progressive and liberal haven't really come up with an answer of how to respond to Trump's authoritarianism and Trump's fascism. And I think ridiculing it and dismissing it and saying he's a ridiculous person, all of those things are true, but hasn't really cut it. And I think we're in a bit of a bit of a pickle going forward unless there's some sort of like, genuine, tangible alternative. And I'll kind of go back to the kind of Black Lives Matter philosophy there and that policy document. So sorry, I'm talking way too much here, but I'm pretty angry with liberalism at the moment. Like, we were talking, recording this a couple of days after more than 100,000 people on the right were marching in London. And I think that's the product of not taking this seriously and you can see it in our country in the UK as well, of like Starmer not really taking that kind of threat seriously and not offering a valid alternative for people that isn't fascism and having a go at people of different races and different nationalities. So maybe a little bit too serious, but I'm trying to kind of link all of those things together because I do think that there's something about that that really encapsulates this like 2010s into 2020s payment.

What I love, though, about what you've suggested, Nick, and also how that ties in with the other suggestions from Emma and Becky, is that actually we're not just reflecting what society currently looks like in the US But I think we're really sort of capturing the sort of the present day fear of what could be. And I think for a time capsule, that's actually a really valuable way of documenting things today because who knows what might be. And actually we talk about the Handmaid's Tale as some sort of dystopian piece of television, or certainly that's how it's presented. But if that reality ever emerged, there would be no evidence of that fear ever being sort of existing in people. Right. If we end up, let's worst case scenario, Trump becomes dictator. Trump and takes over and, you know, everything goes downhill in the US I think actually being able to sort of Capture that there are a lot of people that are genuinely scared of what could happen and of that potential reality. You know, I think that's, that's a valuable thing to capture in the time capsule. That's. That's my rant anyway.

No, I think, yeah, I think you're right. I think it, I think it is reality. I'm a bit of a doom mongerer. I was just thinking a lot. I think when Trump first became president, there's this Yale law professor called Samuel Moyn, like a historian, law professor, was just constantly writing things like, oh, Trumpism is bad, but it's technically not fascism. And I don't think he'd write that piece now. Like, I think that that has kind of taken root in American political culture and more broadly, but to make it slightly less doom and gloom and maybe more light hearted and to think about other suggestions. So we've got like the authoritarianism and the religious nationalism of the Handmaid's Tale got January 6th, we've got Trump's gold toilet, we've got the failure of liberalism. Maybe what we need is a. When's the next presidential election? 2028. Right. We need a swift 2028 campaign because in the world all of those things are going on. We do have Taylor Swift, right. She sort of doesn't. She's not political. Right. She doesn't say much on like political topics, from what I understand.

Well, she did come out, though. She did come out and support reproductive rights. This was on the documentary Americana when she was quite young and she opposed sort of the Republican governor of her state. But she tends to do politics small rather than, you know, sort of massive. So, yeah, you're right.

She publicly endorsed Kamala Harris last year, didn't she?

Yeah, she did, yeah.

Yeah.

Maybe we need the radicalization of Taylor Swift and like her as the first female president. 2028, with Travis Kelce as a White House as well. Maybe that would be the way forward. But yeah, I think, yeah, sorry for bringing it all kind of doom and gloom, but I was thinking about his selections in like the aftermath of the response to the Charlie Kirk shooting and then what was going on in the UK over the weekend. And just, I think my broader politics is just this failure of imagination of the left and of liberalism and of actually actioning that even. And I think there's something about our moment with that kind of paucity of ideas from the centre left which I think maybe needs to be mapped and future historians might be interested in looking back on that and trying to Explain how did all of this happen and why did it happen at this current juncture?

There are things here thinking about trying to find a silver lining of some kind here, if not in the immediate moment. I mean, there are hints in the choices as well, right. About these ideas don't have to come from the top right. Thinking about who can change things. We're talking about the importance of grassroots resistance and low level resistance and the impact that it can have. Whether we see that with June and the Handmaids in and others actually within the Handmaid's Tale, that's a ground level movement that works to try and resist and change things from both within and without. Thinking also about the Black Lives Matter movement. Okay, yes, there have been roadblocks, and at this precise moment, things maybe don't look so rosy for it, but the change that they pushed for and the ways in which they flagged up the issues that they were talking about and they wanted people to talk about, again, it's grassroots that kind of pushes that. And even weirdly, the kind of the populist moment, the way Trump and the conservative right and the far right have kind of mobilized people, there are lessons in that too, for the left, if they're willing to think about it. Right. About that, you don't need them. This is slightly blasphemous, right? You don't need a messiah. I think this is part of the problem with the Democrats at the moment is they're looking for the person who can come and like, sweep away Trump. And you don't need, and you may not get a single person who can embody all of, all of that. But grass those slow build grassroots resistance can have an impact. And I'm not saying that we don't need like lots of different approaches in this, this current moment, but I think if what we're trying to do is try and find some hope in all of the downside, that there are things there, if people are willing to try and find them and push for them.

What do we make of Zoran Mondani? I think that's how you pronounce his name. Apologies if I've got that wrong. The Democratic nominee for mayor think, you know, sort of he completely shocked the political establishment. Right. And certainly there's a younger generation who are, you know, sort of much more progressive in the US Than, you know, sort of, perhaps they've been given credit for. So I'm not saying he's, you know, sort of gonna change the sort of the US Political system, but what do we make of you know, sort of.

Someone like that, I think that's interest, like, I think it's super interesting that his, his kind of emergence in that campaign and that comes out of the Democratic Socialists of America grassroots kind of organizing, targeting local kind of council races, building, identifying organizers who might be kind of good political leaders and can bring people with them and are rooted in communities. I think, yeah, coming back to like Emma's point about grassroots and kind of mobilizing people, I think that's a really interesting, really interesting example. And, and I like that that was one of the reasons why I put that Black Lives Matter policy document in for me whenever. And I'm sure you agree, Becky, as someone who studies black American history in particular, when you teach this stuff, you look at like black American intellectual history and you look at some of the ideas, not always like the ideas from the Marxist left or radicals, but you kind of of can see a diagnosis of inequality within society and often the solutions to those and like center things from a different perspective. And I think that that's kind of what needs to happen, right, is people to kind of push back these, against these authoritarian narratives, these populist narratives from the right basically targeting immigrants and blaming kind of cultural Marxism for all of America's woes and problems as we stumbling into a climate crisis as well. And think about like what, how do you remake a vision of the world and center kind of different experiences and think about equality in a different, different way. Right. That's the challenge. That's not an easy challenge to do. But I don't see any of the major political parties, well, the Democrats in the US like actually meeting that challenge head on, but they are hopefully like being pushed, I think in different ways. And maybe Mandanis, that election, assuming he's successful, will show that yes, actually the left and liberals need to come together, but doesn't necessarily have to be led by this kind of liberalism, return to the status quo. It might actually have to be led by people who are further on the left who want to kind of remake society in fundamental ways because otherwise you just get more of the same. And it seems to fuel this right wing populism that we're seeing on both sides of the Atlantic.

But to Emma's point about the Democrats searching for their Messiah, I wonder if that could be the undoing of a politician like him. In that I think the Democrats need to play the long game, but in desperation to try and find someone, anyone who could be the future of the party representing the younger generation of Democrats. I wonder if they will accelerate him far too quickly to a point where he'll be in too deep and he'll be. And I'm not saying it will necessarily be him, but. But I imagine the Democrats could fall into the trap of finding a less experienced candidate that they feel appeals to that younger generation the future of the party. And actually they kind of set up their own undoing because it's not a candidate that actually has the experience to win a huge election.

I think the powers that be within a Democratic party will do everything they can to prevent and crush any form of Zoran Mandami type figure actually running for major kind of office. I think that would be the. Their first response, but I think that's partly kind of what needs to change essentially. But it's a very different moment from when we had like Obama coming to power for the first time. And I don't see. Yeah, I think it's like a lack of a serious kind of challenge from the left to right wing authoritarianism. And that's the thing that worries me most of all. Again, I feel like I'm just bumming this out. So I'm sorry, can we just talk about Taylor Swift a bit more?

I was going to say, I think Liam has some suggestions. Right. For the, for the time capsule. So maybe, maybe, maybe Liam, can you help us out here?

Yeah, being. Being, I guess the non academic in the room, I have got. Okay, I'll get my Trump one out the way because obviously there has to be a Trump one. So I wanted to put a GIF of Trump's fist pump in the air after the assassination attempt last year for two reasons. Firstly, I think that that moment and that image, particularly from the moment it was taken, I think it became a piece of history. It represented something and I think it represented in one image the whole MAGA movement. And I think it's just a really powerful documentation of, I think, the election campaign and of the Trump era as a whole. And also a GIF, because I don't think GIFs will exist in 5,000 years. I mean, we'll all just be streaming stuff from chips in our brains or just be heads in jars or whatever. I don't know. So I think a GIF is also quite reflective of just something today that won't really exist in 5,000 years. But I also wanted to lighten the tone a little bit because I suspected maybe we'd get a bit Trump and MAGA heavy in this time capsule. So I decided to put in as well the DVD box set of The Office. Now, I'm going to caveat and say I think the UK version of the Office is still far superior and the best television show of all time, but for the purpose of a US time capsule. I think that a sitcom like the Office is. It's kind of. It's almost a little bit meta in the fact that it itself is sort of a mockumentary and made as a fake documentary of a real life Office. But in doing that, I think it actually does give us a really quite accurate portrayal of what average American life was probably like in the Noughties, all right, with a slightly, you know, TV sheen. But I think if we're trying to get some sort of, you know, fair idea of what life of what just the average Joe was like at that time, I think the Office is a really nice example of that. And, you know, DVDs, because, you know, for the same reason, gifts won't be here. DVDs. DVDs are already not here. I mean, it's 2025. I've got a wall of DVDs behind me and I'm holding onto them preciously because I can't find them anymore.

So, yeah, I have to take issue with just that DVD comment there because my 16 year old has asked for a DVD player and she's now buying from charity shops old DVDs. She's a film studies student, so that may be why. But actually there's a kind of return, a desire for authenticity. Authenticity that are so many of her friends, some of her friends have got Walkmans, right? I mean, like, so, you know, sort of there is a weird kind of, you know, sort of return to, you know, sort of she wants, you know, sort of tickets for concerts and, you know, so she's fed up with QR codes. So actually I do wonder if the DVD is making comeback. Like vine makes me feel.

It makes me feel so old though, because, like, people are treating DVDs today like we treated like VHS's in like the Noughties, right? Like there's something nostalgic and a little bit like retro about it. That's. I think that's why they're doing it. And that makes me feel old.

Oh, wow. If that makes you feel old, I'm going to date you, date myself even further by going. But the first video player my family had was, was a Betamax, which for listeners who are listening to this, who will not have a clue, know what I'm talking about? It was like the big competition, right, for VCR plays between Betamax and vhs. And my, my dad decided to go for the one that basically went out of existence.

So.

So yes, I, you know, yeah, I recognize that. And the idea of old DVDs, I'm like, oh God, that really makes me feel old.

I feel like it's something really hopeful about all of this, right, is that we're told that like, world of AI, everything's going to come and take your jobs, everything's going to be automated. It's all about these tech bros, Sam Altman's Elon Musk, all of that stuff. And you've got a younger generation of people who are consciously rejecting that and saying, actually I want to be there in the moment with something. I don't want to have this unlimited choice. I think there is something really, like you were saying, Becky, that kind of search for authenticity in that kind of rapidly changing world. What I really like about the Office, I'm a big fan of the American Office. My partner, she watches it around about this time every year as kind of a second screen feel good watching thing, I think, like, you know, as the nights kind of get darker and everyone gets a bit kind of doom and gloom because it's such a nice show, right? Like a kind of community show. Funny, but also like has those relationships and, and all of those things in it. I think it also, you know, like, it's something really interesting about it as like, you know, setting a paper factory, paper salesman in the context of like people losing their jobs in small town America, which I think encapsulates a certain moment as well and reminds people of like, the value of that kind of more traditional office environment and things like that. I do think there's something, I think that is a really nice thing to put in there because it's a communal thing that people watch and enjoy, but certainly captures a moment in American history which. Where things are changing a little bit. And maybe it's a bit nostalgic for that, that past of like nine to five jobs and white collar work and all of that kind of stuff reminded it doesn't have to change all the.

Time because will they actually crave an office, right? So, you know, sort of. And you know, sort of will they think, oh, what is this? You know, so in the sense of, you know, sort of even 16, 17 year olds now are like, you know, sort of, well, I want a job, but like I'll, you know, sort of work from home or, you know, sort of. And it's this hybrid model and, you know, so God knows what, what that will be in in the future. And, you know, sort of work relationships and building that community were vital, are vital to, you know, those of us who remember. And you do think, ah, what's gonna come? But also, you know, sort of that, you know, nostalgia for the way things used to be is really lovely.

We kind of saw that sort of enforced lifestyle shift in 2020, though, didn't we, with COVID like? And I think that, that that trend was already kind of starting to happen, but there was sort of resistance from, you know, the. The corporations and from the higher end. But I think people wanted more flexibility and freedom in their work, in their working life. And then Covid happened, and then suddenly the new norm was everyone works from home. But then there was kind of this. This stretching back to the middle where people. Then after a year of that sort of the novelty wore off and there was a sort of a sentiment towards going back to the office and seeing people face to face again. But it has really accelerated a big shift in, like, how we work and how we interact with each other, hasn't it? But we haven't put anything Covid related in the time capsule like that.

We've never. We've not put anything in related to Covid. That's a big omission.

I did think maybe I should put Covid in, but I just thought it was too dangerous.

We're deciding that. We're deciding that humanity needs. In 5000 years when. When they dig up our time capsule, humanity is going to need some kind of shock to the system. Bigger vial of COVID in it, I would say.

We could. You could throw a stimulus check in there or something, just because that's mad that Trump signed that bill. And, like, you know, there's just so much weird stuff going on and so many contradictions. So it could all kind of fit into the time capsule.

Well, maybe just RFK Jr. Will be more important than Trump in, like, 5,000 years, when the US is riddled with disease and vaccines are no longer a thing.

I do wonder how long it's going to be before the British government or governments around the world start, you know, mandating certain vaccines for people who want to travel to the United States in a way that perhaps we've not seen before, given the way that that politics is going at the moment.

But also tourists coming from the U.S. right. Thinking about, you know, sort of transmission of disease is like, because we're such a global world now. So it's really scary.

Do you think that in 5,000 years, things will almost reverse as we were experiencing Right now, sort of, of more nationalist sentiment in a lot of countries and this idea towards all this sympathy towards sort of self preservation, you know, which Trump is really leading in the us but we're starting to see the rise of, you know, this sort of right wing protectionism in the UK as well and in other countries. And, you know, are we going to be as connected in the future as we are today?

I think 5,000 years may be optimistic. Like what will we have? We might well be, yeah. Who knows?

Well, there may not be a planet.

Exactly. I don't know. I think you've got to have some sort of. In a world where you've got January 6th, Trump on a golden toilet, the Handmaid's Tale, but also Taylor Swift, maybe we can imagine a better future. Hopefully. I don't know.

I think it's, I think, you know, moves in cycles and, you know, sort of great empires have risen and great empires have fallen and you know, sort of, and in fact, you know, sort of we need to think about this current moment with Trump and I'm hoping this, it's just, you know, sort of it will, you know, turn at some point. Right. And things will get better. But we just, you know, sort of, it's going to take lots of resistors to, you know, to do that. But we are, we're powerful as one. But, you know, so because we're fractured and the governments tend to, you know, do that, you know, sort of divided we fall so, you know, sort of remembering that, you know, sort of we're stronger together and there's more that unites us than divides us.

And who knows, maybe years in the future, someone somewhere will unearth this podcast episode and maybe will be the reason why the Earth is suddenly a better place. We'll galvanize a whole army of people who want to change things for the better. So who knows? But I think that we've got a great list of contents for our time capsule. I'm sure there's so much else that we could put in there. And for anyone that's listening to this and is kind of screaming at Spotify and saying we should put this in or that in, make sure you message the show americaodcastbylean.com and tell me what you'd include. And I'll also put a link to our speak pipe in the show notes as well so you can even record a message. And I'll, I'll find a way to play it out because I'd love to know what you would include if you, if you had the chance. Obviously I can't thank you all, Becky, Nick, Emma enough for taking the time to to do this episode with me. It's been a lot of fun and I'll also put some links about the Westinghouse time capsules in the show notes too. So if anyone wants to find out, you know, about the real ones that were put in the grounds decades ago, then you can. As I always do, I'm going to ask you how people can connect with you directly. Although Emma, you're not on social, so kick us off.

I'm not, and regular listeners will know that and will know how to find me.

Nick, I am not either, but I have an email address. If you google Nick Grunt uea I.

Suppose that will come up wonderful.

And Becky and yeah, me neither. So just Rebecca Fraser, UEA email.

Yes, I feel that's a trend. I recorded a podcast last week and both guests said they're not on social anymore. So I feel like. Is it just an academic thing or is it just a thing? Is it a thing now? I don't know. But if you enjoy listening to the podcast wherever you are, do leave us a rating and a review and give us a follow because then all future episodes will appear in your feed as well. I hope you like this slightly different episode this week week. And we're back to business as usual from next Tuesday. So if you follow the links in the show notes, you'll have all the information about what we've discussed and how to support us as well. So thank you all so much for listening. Thank you again to Becky, Nick and Emma and goodbye sat.