[00:00:00] Nina Endrst: Hi, I'm Nina Endrst.

[00:00:05] Anna Toonk: I'm Anna Toonk.

[00:00:06] Nina Endrst: Welcome to how to be human.

[00:00:08] Anna Toonk: A podcast that explores the common and often confusing themes of humanness.

[00:00:12] Nina Endrst: On this episode, Anna and I discuss boundaries.

[00:00:15] Anna Toonk: Take a seat clear mind and let's chat.

[00:00:21] Nina Endrst: I can't believe that people watch the super bowl and that's not like a judgment. It's so wild to me that that's such a thing. I just can't. I just can't imagine watching football.

[00:00:36] Anna Toonk: The NFL is one of the most highly rated and revenue generating options.

[00:00:42] Nina Endrst: You see that set? Did you see.

[00:00:44] Anna Toonk: The halftime show set.

[00:00:46] Yeah. Which is insane. And they don't pay like any of those people, which is disgusting. Yeah. They don't pay answer. Oh yeah. I've worked on these Superbowl halftime shows and we had to have 200 volunteers bring in pieces of the set and like I had to sell it to them. Like it was a great privilege and honor for them to get to do it.

[00:01:09] Nina Endrst: I fucking hate that. Yeah, that's repulsive.

[00:01:13] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, it'll never, I mean, I feel like this is, I mean, this is a different episode or maybe a different show, but where someone can, well, someone can explain capitalism to me. Cause I just, I don't understand why. So, you know, when someone points out something like someone comes in from outside of something and is like, oh, I don't understand why they don't belong.

[00:01:37] You're like, The whole point. That's the whole question. When I look at these like massive companies, you know, or when I look at these massive entities, you look at the NFL, you look at what these stadium, how massive they are, how are you telling me? You don't have a couple of hundred bucks for these people?

[00:01:54] Like, are you, like, I just find that impossible to believe, but is that how they say so rich? Is that the con I don't, I don't know the

[00:02:02] Nina Endrst: con of course I also, yeah, we won't get too much into, obviously my distaste. The organization, but I just, you know, when you just feel weird and w and I woke up this morning being like, I feel real weird around these days, because I just am like, yeah, no, I'm not, I wasn't like gathering.

[00:02:21] To watch the Superbowl.

[00:02:23] Anna Toonk: I mean, I generally like the Superbowl for the snacks and the dip. I liked that it is an orgy for Deb growth. In

[00:02:32] Nina Endrst: fact, I just had to think about those two things and visualize them together is just not. Okay.

[00:02:38] Anna Toonk: Oh my God. It's like the dip Olympics and that orangy growth. I love about it.

[00:02:45] I'm there for I'm. I love a dip. I love an appetizer. And that to me is like, that's where I can get down with the super bowl. I just certain things I'm just like amazed at where we're still giving, like, acting like it's relevant. My favorite part of the super bowl was that. I didn't watch it. I didn't care.

[00:03:07] I yesterday I only really liked like five people on earth. I was on, like, I was in such a bad mood. I was like, I just need to be by myself. And I was in such a bad mood. I was laughing at myself, which is also a good sign when you're just like, you're such a good sign. You know, that you're just like, well, at least I'm just laughing at myself.

[00:03:25] But then I went on Twitter and I looked at Kanye. Um, meltdown and looked at the means he made. And I was just like, you know what? I might be lady grumps a lot right now, but I'm still having a better time than Kanye west. And that just brought me a little Chromal comfort. I don't know. I just imagine I just sometimes.

[00:03:49] I mean, I should've brought us up on the choices episode, but like, I imagine being like so rich and famous and having like, I think what looks like a relatively good life, you know, like, uh, granted who knows from the outside. And that's how you use your time. Like you're making memes about your ex wife's boyfriend.

[00:04:08] I mean, I just, I don't understand it. Never

[00:04:12] Nina Endrst: let's stop talking about kindness because you know, there's something I want to talk about.

[00:04:19] Anna Toonk: We're going

[00:04:19] Nina Endrst: to switch gears right now. Okay. So we're talking today

[00:04:23] Anna Toonk: about. Boundaries boundaries.

[00:04:27] Nina Endrst: Arguably one of my favorite things in life.

[00:04:31] Anna Toonk: Oh my gosh. I, it's funny. I have so many thoughts about boundaries, but I'm going to give us a definition. And now a line that marks the limits of an area, a dividing line, the Eastern boundary of the wilderness.

[00:04:46] Now. A limit of a subject or sphere of activity, a community without class or political boundaries. And then it was funny. I was digging through my, um, old journals looking for something out, but I actually found where my therapist had told me. Five types of boundaries. And she was like, you need to think of boundaries in terms of emotional material, time, energy, physical, and mental.

[00:05:18] Nina Endrst: Um, helpful.

[00:05:20] Anna Toonk: Yeah. Which I found helpful because I don't know about you, but I struggled with boundaries a lot. And then my, my favorite definition I've found in recent times, it comes from Prentice. Handful, I think is how you pronounce their last name. I'm not positive. I'll be honest because I've mostly read it.

[00:05:41] Not heard it, but. Boundaries are the distance at which I can love you and me simultaneously. I love that one. Me too. It was a real guiding light for me when I was trying to theme that, understand what they were.

[00:05:58] Nina Endrst: I was actually thinking about that very. Quote this

[00:06:02] Anna Toonk: morning, I come back to it. A lot of like when I'm struggling maybe to set a boundary, or I know that I need to, and I'm trying to figure out maybe what the boundary is, you know, where like w w you know, what's been the transgression or whatever, that's something I come back to.

[00:06:21] To figure that out of like, what would allow me to love both of us in this instance, you know, like it's been something that's really helped me in the process of that. And then I was looking around and I found something that I really like because something I really struggled with. This is from a medium article.

[00:06:40] The ways we get love all wrong defenses versus boundaries and adult attachment. And this is from Dr. Ava pum merengue, P O M M E R E N K. And. Because a huge part of my own boundary story is like one, I didn't even know what they were had to really be brought up to speed as to what the fuck a boundary even was and how, when people set them with me to not view it as rejection.

[00:07:10] And then I went through a real phase of being like the boundary vigilante. And I basically was like, just throwing down walls. And my therapist was like, whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, like we gotta figure it out. Some flexibility. So I found this, which I thought was really interesting boundaries, help people get to know who you are, what triggers and wounds you have and are a gesture towards connection and intimacy boundaries are a process and a conversation we continue to navigate with others.

[00:07:40] Whereas defenses are solid and inflexible defenses are a way we seek to control enough. Which I thought was fascinating because when I was learning to set boundaries, like it felt so scary. I just felt scared all the time. Which makes sense why I was doing defenses essentially. I was like, good. I feel like really uncomfortable having to like tell people like, and be vulnerable and ask for what I need.

[00:08:07] So let me just build all these walls and I'm curious. When did you learn about boundaries while I was

[00:08:14] Nina Endrst: sitting in? No, I don't

[00:08:15] Anna Toonk: remember. I was sitting on

[00:08:21] smoking in American spirit

[00:08:23] Nina Endrst: and the organic kind, you know, I know we didn't have it.

[00:08:34] Anna Toonk: well, I was gonna say, did you grow up with boundaries? Did you grow up in a boundaried

[00:08:37] Nina Endrst: home? My mom has a lot, but I felt like what I learned about a couple of things. I learned about boundaries from her one. Like I respect tid and still respect. She has like a firm boundary around rest, which I. Used to find and still kind of do find it annoying, maybe.

[00:09:03] Cause it's just like triggering at some points, but I I'm so grateful for that because I, she prioritized that and was like, wouldn't do things and was very verbal about that because of, you know, the fact that she needed to take care of herself in that way. So she was very, that was like a physical boundary.

[00:09:20] She had emotional, whatever, both, but then there was. Zero boundary like negative zero boundaries with my dad. And that was. So confusing because emotionally there was no, and I mean, no boundaries, like the things that I knew were just what, like, I shouldn't know this

[00:09:53] Anna Toonk: I also find that really interesting to have such a hard boundary around breasts. Makes makes sense. Great. You know, and a good thing to model for a kid, you know, like great. And then have no boundaries on this emotional sense where it's like, well, girl, maybe you wouldn't need so much rest if you had some over here too, you know, like I find that disconnect fascinating.

[00:10:14] You know, there was a lot

[00:10:15] Nina Endrst: of. There was, I feel like the older I got, the more confused I became, right. Like I was like, wait, that's not what I thought this was at all. Like, so I learned a lot about boundaries, honestly, from working and having zero boundaries at work and having. Yeah, everyone around me has zero boundaries at work.

[00:10:42] I actually had more boundaries than most people because I wasn't friends with the people that I worked with for the most part. Like I would have one friend at work, but I would not be the be like, let's go to happy hour. I'm like, I'd rather fucking poke my eyes out than hang out with two people outside of the.

[00:10:58] Anna Toonk: Shit show you can't see me, but I'm smiling so hard. Cause I find that hilarious and I find your boundaries around friendship. Fascinating of like, I mean like friends laughed at like, I don't have acquaintances. It's like people I'm not interested. And then, um, or I'm like obsessed with you. There's no in between

[00:11:17] Nina Endrst: zero

[00:11:18] Anna Toonk: time for acquaintances.

[00:11:19] Yeah. And, but I love that. You're like, No. Like I forget who I was like, oh, well, like your friends or what? And you were like, we're not friends. And I was like, oh, he gave me like a shiver of like excitement. I was like, about that. But like your mental, like your mental, emotional order, or sometimes with your boundaries is like fascinating to me though.

[00:11:43] That, that it makes sense. Like, I think it gives you that.

[00:11:46] Nina Endrst: Yeah. I mean, it wasn't at work at work. It was just, I watched these people and it's not even like, I'm not, I'm really not trying to be judgmental. I was for a long time, but I try very hard in my old age to be less, a lot less judgmental, but they were just so immersed in a meshed with each other.

[00:12:04] It was like, they fucking each other, they were like eating lunch with each other. They were working together. I'm like, don't you guys have like another life. So for me, I was like, I am constantly answering emails. At my bosses service at the drop of a hat, I need a life that does not have anything to do with this place.

[00:12:29] It was just survival for me. So I actually would get in a lot of trouble at the modeling agency because the owner or the, you know, the CEO or whatever he was, was like such a quaint. And he. With send these drunk and emails at like four o'clock in the morning. Oh my God. They were priceless. I wish I saved them.

[00:12:47] It was like fashion. If you're not at the pod two, you're missing it. I'm like, no shit how that works. It would be like, you have to go, you have to be at all of the events. I'm like, no, but I really don't. I really don't have to be with you guys in the Hamptons. Like I don't have to do that, but anyway, Emotionally, that was really important to preserve what sanity I had left.

[00:13:11] And my health was really deteriorating at that. I, you know, I, my entire time in New York, so it was like I had to have a

[00:13:17] Anna Toonk: break. Did you get punished? Because I found when I, so at one point in my career, I sort of. Kinda I ranked above my peers. I had gotten promoted, kind of passed my peers a bit. And so I stopped socializing as much because it felt weird.

[00:13:35] And I think it's weird. Like, I want you, like, of course I want it to be like a cool boss or cool manager or whatever, but I also didn't want to be the one who's making everyone hang out with them all the time. Like, cause that had also been done to me and I hated it, you know, but, um, I have found if you don't participate in drinking culture, especially.

[00:13:59] Nina Endrst: I was looking to get fucked up. I was looking to get fucked up somewhere else. Same anywhere else,

[00:14:04] Anna Toonk: judging y'all drinking. I'm just judging. You're all drinking together. Losers, TV, you know how

[00:14:09] Nina Endrst: TV people are like, there's

[00:14:10] Anna Toonk: just, you know what I

[00:14:12] Nina Endrst: mean? So grimy about that scene. I'm sorry, but at the end of the day I am from Connecticut.

[00:14:26] Anna Toonk: You know what I wonder if my southernism dance, cause I would be like, I also, some of it, I remember. I was working at Sony music studios when the blackout happened in New York. And we were all in hanging out in one of the recording studios and the recording studios are incredible. Like they're so Lux, like you understand why they're a bajillion dollars an hour and why artists.

[00:14:49] Live in them for months making their albums like they're so luxurious, but the great thing was it was August in New York. So it was pretty hot. The blackout happens. So there's obviously no air conditioning, but we could seal the cold air into the studios because they're soundproof. So. Tons of us are hanging out in there.

[00:15:07] And I kinda come to this like awareness of I'm in a room of like lost souls. A bunch of these people do have places in Manhattan. They could go home and they're not like Y you

[00:15:22] Nina Endrst: know, Boom, boom, boom. And I own that and entertainment in general, like fashion

[00:15:29] Anna Toonk: TV, like it's dysfunction. It's anything where dysfunction is praised.

[00:15:33] And I think aloud, you know, like it

[00:15:37] Nina Endrst: punished all the time for it. And I. And I knew that that was going to be the case, but I just, I couldn't, I couldn't had to have one boundary. Like that was like the only one I had. I didn't have any with men. I didn't have any with my friends. I had didn't have any at work.

[00:15:53] Other than that one, I'm like, I'm just going to have the one

[00:15:56] Anna Toonk: that's funny. I feel like it also made it harder for me as I got older and became like a, for real adult, you know, The idea that we're adults at 18, it gets funnier in front of her to me as I get older. But I feel like in so many ways, like, it's very interesting to me now seeing the like, boundary revolution happened on Instagram, because I feel like I got.

[00:16:26] So much pushback and flack for setting boundaries, like before it was cool. And I don't feel like we're having part two of that dialogue in society of like how to respect people's boundaries. But when I first felt like people were setting boundaries with me, like, it felt like rejection. It was so confusing.

[00:16:48] And then. I started to be like, oh, like, this is how you're not like mad and resentful, but

[00:16:57] Nina Endrst: let's give an example about that. I have a good one. I want to hear what yours is of like, when somebody set a boundary with you and

[00:17:04] Anna Toonk: it was, you were like, what is that? I think it was, I mean, I remember vaguely like either.

[00:17:13] It was, um, professionally or personally, I feel like it was like, you know, if a friend was like, you know, if we maybe had been gossiping and they're like, I want to stop talking about them or something, I would just be like, oh, Like I would just collapse. That would be like, I either felt like embarrassed or, you know, like I wouldn't be able to just, you know, hear it as just like what they were asking for.

[00:17:41] Like they used to just wanted to change the subject or whatever, you know, I can't remember anything vividly, but I'm curious to hear your, I did, but I remembered the way I felt I can remember those times. And that's the thing, like, whatever they were asking for was so innocuous, but like, I remember. The, the like, um, very visceral response I had to it, you know,

[00:18:09] Nina Endrst: I can meet you there and especially. You know, w with the gossip stuff, I didn't get a boundary set around that often. I don't think I was ever like a huge gossiper or like just not gossip, but you know what I mean? But what, I, I have a friend who's still my friend probably only because she used, she set boundaries with me, but she was so subtle about it that she would just like, get off.

[00:18:38] She would cut the conversation off, or she wouldn't like, yeah, Respond to my every, you know, rant which got I'm embarrassed. And I mean less now, but still slightly about all of the emails that I would just fire off or the text to my friends, like take a minute regulate don't you don't have to, you don't have to invite everybody in, but emotionally I had no boundaries and a big part of that is.

[00:19:06] I either didn't know how to ask for help in a specific kind of adult way. So I would just wait until it got so bad or out of control that I would spew it all, you know, at once. And I don't feel like it would ever do it in person, which I find really fascinating, but I had to have that like, boundary

[00:19:28] Anna Toonk: that.

[00:19:30] Interesting. I don't think I did either. Now that I think about it,

[00:19:34] Nina Endrst: I was big on like slutty texting and not, not the, not the sexy kind, but like just, yeah. But, but I really always appreciate her. I mean, sometimes I'm like, I would like to get in and know her a little bit more. Cause she's very private. And I'll be like, how are you?

[00:19:53] And she's like, good, I'm fine. And then like 10 minutes, 15 minutes into the conversation. She like, oh, you know, I just like went for a routine, you know, cancer scan. And I was like, wait, what, like, did you have, do you have cancer? Like just, she'll just drop these things so casually, she's never the center of attention.

[00:20:11] Right. She never wants to bring attention to herself, but how she would set boundaries with me is she just wouldn't entertain every little. Outburst of mine. And I S I learned just by her silence, like, not that she was mad at me cause she wasn't, but that she, in order to love me still, she had to

[00:20:33] Anna Toonk: step away.

[00:20:34] That's what I've learned. A thing for me is feeling pressured. Like I can often feel pressured and. My therapist is still trying to get me to understand that's not really what's happening. Like I feel pressure, but there, the people aren't actually pressuring me. And a big thing is my learning that like, you don't have to engage with everything you don't have to take, you know, like you don't have to navigate every single crisis with people.

[00:21:03] Like they can still be your friend. You can still love them and you don't have to do, you don't have to take each one, you know, and that is. It is really hard, you know, like it's hard, I think, to navigate and find that, but I think it's also sort of beautiful when you can figure things out with people without it like taking a lot of like fussiness, it sounds like y'all sort of figured out some of it without it being, you know, very belabored or anything, which I think is cool.

[00:21:39] Nina Endrst: Yeah, I think one of the things that I've learned about boundaries in general is. Clarity is incredibly important, but it doesn't have to love

[00:21:50] Anna Toonk: that. You're saying this, you love them. Say, I love that you're

[00:21:53] Nina Endrst: saying this. Yes, but it's not necessarily about, you know, getting people to under, it's never actually about people to getting people to understand what your need is.

[00:22:05] It's just being clear about what is my intention. Like why, what, what am I prioritizing? Right. If you never set a boundary in your whole fucking life. Fine. No worries. Yeah. What, what's the priority? Like maybe you're just feeling so mentally overloaded that the priority is clearing some mental noise.

[00:22:28] Right? So in order to clear some of that now, what, right. How do I say. We're not say I can't engage with that. Either texts. I can't go to that dinner. I can't take that extra work project, whatever it is. Just these little, like what, what crystal clear, what is the priority? What's the intention. Why are you here?

[00:22:50] Even setting the bar?

[00:22:51] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I, something that was really hard for me to learn was that I couldn't get mad at people. If I hadn't set the boundary. I know it's so fucking annoying. And it's so rude of boundaries. Because obviously like lots of times we are mad, you know, like, or lots of times or mad it w I would say is my go-to, but I wouldn't say we're something, we feel some kind of way.

[00:23:18] I'm usually mad. Yeah. It's usually mad. Annoyed, hurt, resentful. Like let's, I would say that's the umbrella we're sort of under in this. And I had a moment today where I was like, Well done. And you're learning. I have a neighbor who I live in a building where we're all pretty cool with each other and try to be community oriented and friends.

[00:23:42] It is a bit, it is a bit, we hang out a lot, you know, it's great. We send each other food in the elevator and I have one neighbor who. I CA I referred to him as uncle brother. Cause it's a bit what our dynamic is. He asks for a lot of favors. I don't get a lot in return. And yesterday I had gotten from him Ola, same drill again, I'm out of town and had a package delivered today.

[00:24:09] Any chance you can throw it in my apartment for me. And I proceeded to get real fucking annoyed because it was, and it was on your annoying day. It was on my annoying day, which I knew I was like, you already have. Everything today. It's not, it's not about this, but I was like, I'm annoyed that he said, same drill again.

[00:24:30] Like I don't work for you, bro. You know, like I don't, I don't understand. Also too, like packages are a whole thing in my building. Like we don't have a doorman, things do get stolen. Sometimes we kind of go through these phases where shit gets stolen, but I. It's oh, I'll be honest. It is the men of the building who want people to put the things in their apartment.

[00:24:54] Like it's not enough to just put it in the laundry room or something. They want it, baby. The baby men want it delivered specifically to their apartment, which I'm just like, this is also annoying. You know, so it's, they're getting all riled up and I'm like, what is the problem, Ana? What is the problem? And I'm like, I'm tired of doing favors for him.

[00:25:14] There's never any reciprocity. I don't like the way he talks to me. Dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. I'm like, cool, cool, cool. So I was like, Hey, you know, I w you know, I took last night off my phone. I said, um, I did put it in your apartment also as a heads up, I'm retiring as the building concierge. So that was my last one.

[00:25:33] I hope it was an important one. And he was like, just, uh, was just asking a favor. You're actually the only person in the building I really talked to. So I couldn't ask anybody else. Anyway, I go, I get it. But everyone asks me for help and I'm just worn out. So I won't be doing package retrieval. And I felt uncomfortable obviously, but I also was just like, this is crazy.

[00:25:59] I can't get mad every time and I'm not beholden to this person, you know, and this is the thing, like I spend, I've gotten better at not getting into the, like, Mad or the, you know, like he should know better or, oh my God. Doesn't he realize this is like the 12th thousand time he's asked me to do something and he's, he doesn't even know number 27,

[00:26:24] Nina Endrst: sir.

[00:26:25] She was counting no way, like ask people to do shit for him all day.

[00:26:30] Anna Toonk: Exactly. I mean, like I'm, and that's something too that was like, I don't know about you, but like, for me, I definitely was like the silent, you know, like the silent boundary watcher, who was like, it has been zero days since transgressions, you know, it was like smoke cigarettes.

[00:26:51] It's true, like smokes the American spirit. I was a marble menthol lights girl. Oh my

[00:26:56] Nina Endrst: God. You are a menthol girl. That she's hard. Core, whoever glass and shit. I used to smoke. I used to date a Newport smoker, nothing nastier than that.

[00:27:10] Anna Toonk: Truly, truly, there is nothing net new forward. A couple of years ago, out of nowhere, I was like, no, on the beach or something.

[00:27:18] And someone had, and I was like, yeah, let me have one of those. Like one

[00:27:21] Nina Endrst: puff was like always the last person at the party was cigarettes. And it was like his favorite thing. Cause they'd be, people would be like, no, I don't want that. Yeah. All the time looking for like parliament.

[00:27:31] Anna Toonk: Yeah. People would be like, he cannot become a singer.

[00:27:33] I'm like it's menthol. And they're like, nevermind. I was always like a boundaries. Boundaries. Yeah, I was thrilled when someone was like, Ooh, or the worst me though, where the people were like, oh my God, can I have one? I love a menthol. Sometimes I'd be like, love to provide that for you. And these are $30 a pack, you know, I don't even know what they cost now.

[00:27:52] Probably what, $20 a pack. Insane. Anyway. It's been a challenge for me to learn, like not to let this stuff build up, but like, I think so much of, what's hard for me about boundaries that I think you're really good at is the fallout. I hate the, like I was just, or, but it's not that big a deal. I'm not as good as that.

[00:28:18] I'm my family fights my boundaries all the time. It comes up all the time and I have set my brother's like, well, yeah, you and your boundaries and stuff. And I'm like, well, y'all are, you're all are not well behaved. I don't know what you want me to tell you, you know, like, It is a distance that I can love you and me simultaneously, you know, like I am mom and bro, but that push back the fallout or the worst to me too, is when people shame spiral or something.

[00:28:46] And you're like, it's truly not that big a deal. I just wanted to tell you so that you don't do it again. Like that's it, you know, that stuff. I like in my head, I almost act like you're a serial killer, which you're not at all. Like, I'm the one who does all the true crime shit. And you're like, you can't watch stuff that I think is like totally fine at like 9:00 AM on a Wednesday.

[00:29:10] You're like, Nope, Nope, Nope, Nope. Too scary. But I feel like when you use. Boundaries. Like you don't, you don't care what the pushback is. Like, you, you just don't, you're just like you told me a story about like, with, with, with your family and have the saying, like, this person can't come to something. And I was like, wow, like, and you're like sureness about it.

[00:29:30] And I don't know. I guess it comes back to like, I don't, I don't like for people to. I don't know.

[00:29:46] Nina Endrst: Well, I have so many things to say and ask too. One of the things I want to say is I had to work really hard and still have to take a moment to like prepare myself because I hate. When people are mad at me,

[00:30:03] Anna Toonk: I

[00:30:03] Nina Endrst: hate it because most, a lot of it's cause I love to be right. And I love people to think I'm right.

[00:30:09] And so when people think I'm wrong or bad or mean, it really upsets me, but I spent so much of my life. Coddling people or making sure that they felt okay if I even started to create a boundary and then I'd go back on it, you know, nevermind. It's okay. Or I just JK and something, I think you and you and I share is I feel like my, something that really bothers me about my family is that.

[00:30:49] I can tell my parents are both a little bit intimidated is the wrong word. Although my dad is far away in intermittent, but it's. They'll both call me scary all the time, which I fucking hate, which I fucking hate. I know you hate it too. And they don't mean

[00:31:04] Anna Toonk: hate that people project that onto you. To be honest, I

[00:31:08] Nina Endrst: am.

[00:31:08] I scary, please tell me I don't. Can

[00:31:12] Anna Toonk: I be? Yes, I think you're no, I okay. I think you're scary in the context of if someone's a weenie or going to try some shit, then yes you are. But I think it's a way that people like make you like a caricature. Exactly. Well,

[00:31:29] Nina Endrst: oh my God. Anna, you've read my fucking mind. So what I was going to say about something that I think you and I share, right.

[00:31:36] And this is probably true for most people, but I think that. People make you the like funny ha ha like let's not take her seriously. She's super cash. Kind of like lady in a lot of ways. So it's like boundaries. Oh, guy on all like nudge, nudge and this little elbow or a fine Anna. And then. Drives me crazy because I obviously don't see you that way.

[00:32:03] I know you're brilliant and funny, very funny, but I don't think I don't treat you like a clown. No, and for me, I think people, the character they, they create in me is like this mean I see bitch and I've gotten it my whole life. Like I don't wear, you know, a sparkly smile on my face all the time. I'm a very.

[00:32:27] Happy person, but I don't, I'm not like sunshine coming out of my ass type of check and P men, especially obviously, I mean, constantly would be like, we're just smile more like you look like such a bitch or whatever the fuck. Right. And for me that is a defense, but it's also like a boundary. Like I go out and I smile when I want to smile, but I don't like engage if I don't, that's the way I look, you know?

[00:32:55] And it's just. I choose that and that's it. But when I assert myself, which is often, and I don't apologize for it and I don't make it sugary or smiley with hi boys, it's really easy to make me to pigeon hole me as like, not a bully, but scary is what I always gotten. Scary. You're scary. It

[00:33:21] Anna Toonk: drives me. Crazy that if women.

[00:33:30] Like, I mean, I'm definitely a clown, like for sure. You know, like that is part of my DNA. I am a Clune. I, I would think like, I mean, but how I've coped, like with a lot of the trauma of my life is looking at the absurdity of life and finding the humor. It's like, I think people get even more upset when I'm direct or draw a boundary.

[00:34:01] And because it feels like almost like a betrayal, like, but your chuckles, like you're not, you know, like it's

[00:34:08] Nina Endrst: supposed to be like a safe place to be like, not serious here.

[00:34:11] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And I'm like, well, we can be not serious, but that doesn't mean it's a free for all. Like, nobody is that

[00:34:19] Nina Endrst: serious. You're a serious person, which is like, I'm here to fucking tell you she's a serious

[00:34:27] Anna Toonk: person.

[00:34:27] I am serious. Yeah. I mean, even if it's about something really stupid, I am serious. I know of the new HSA that Nina's entertained where I've been like, no, you really need to like,

[00:34:39] Nina Endrst: God, that's fascinating. I'm like, wow, we're still here. Okay. We're looping back. Okay. There's more.

[00:34:47] Anna Toonk: And I'm like, no. And then you got to think about like this layer and she's like, I don't care about any of them, you know, but yet we'll listen.

[00:34:53] But like what makes me, I mean, something you really trust about me in, and I actually really appreciate that. You understand, like, there's things about my personality that I don't think many people actually understand about me, that you. Almost immediately. And if that's not like some soulmate shit on today, our day of Valentine's like, I don't know what it is, you know, like let's also prize all different kinds of relationships and the fact that all different kinds of people can see us and love us and let us celebrate the fullness of who we are that you understand.

[00:35:27] I am serious. And you understand I'm also serious about dumb shit, but often when I'm like, Hey. Take you for a ride, you know, you're like, I don't love this, but I'll do it. And that will get loyalty for me until I die, you know? Like, cause it's a great pleasure of mine to take people for a ride, you know?

[00:35:46] And it's like, maybe it will be about the doughboys. Like maybe it will be about, you know, like this weird thing I've found on the internet, like who knows, but you very much understand and allow that for me. And I appreciate that. Yes. If I don't say a boundary state, a boundary is if I'm either, I actually personally think it's really annoying when people ask for permission to set the boundary.

[00:36:08] Like, I think that's kind of confusing if someone's like, would you mind

[00:36:16] Yeah, I find that annoying. However, I do find the original point before I took us all on this ride was if women don't super, you know, wrap it in like, oh my gosh, you after? And like, this is like my weakness. I can't handle this. So

[00:36:44] Nina Endrst: it's all like, it's all my shit overtaking too much responsibility for other people's feelings. Like with

[00:36:51] Anna Toonk: like the neighbor today. Like I wanted to be like, you're like how many times they violate taking care of your dogs? And I'm like, That's not what matters and I don't have to defend it and I don't owe him that.

[00:37:07] And I don't really care what he thinks. Like if he thinks I'm a bitch. So be it, you know, like I've had people think worse about me, but I think about that a lot in terms of. Like with, with boundaries. Cause I think often, like we're afraid of something like what are we afraid of by not setting it? And I think for me, because a huge thing is a huge fear of mine is rejection that I, I think like there's something that's doing this podcast has really, really, really emphasized to me is like none of us communicate as clearly.

[00:37:43] I think we do. And none of us really remember what we said. Don't be alarmed by that, but I fully agree,

[00:37:51] Nina Endrst: but a thing on the podcast, I'm like, I have no idea what I said on that podcast. I have no idea at all

[00:37:56] Anna Toonk: what I said five minutes ago, but I remember what you say that I'll think that I remember how. We talked about something, but inevitably I'm always wrong.

[00:38:07] Like I'm always wrong about some aspect. And that's been really informative. And I feel like lots of times too, when people set boundaries and this was something that was really, really difficult for me to learn as well is you may have to set them multiple times because often too, if you're not, if you're new to them and have.

[00:38:26] You know, developed any comfortability. You probably didn't set it as clearly as you might remember, or people don't want to hear it. They're abs. Absolutely. And I used to get so flustered by feeling like worn down or really, I think what I was like. Struggling with was like, who am I to ask her? These things?

[00:38:51] I think it really was much more connected to self-worth to be honest, but I would say like, oh, they just wear me down. Or it's just easier to say yes, or, you know, all this stuff, but really it was cause like I didn't have enough of that stuff inside to sustain myself in that process because really who cares?

[00:39:12] Why? Like, who cares? Either violating the boundary or like, it doesn't matter where it's coming from. Like, what matters is that you, you hold it, you know, it does matter. But like, I think if someone's starting to wear down your resistance or if they're genuinely confused and that's something too, I have appreciated from, from people when they're like, You know, if it's a little bit of a trickier, a boundary or something like, cause all boundaries are really personal, you know, like in that something and they're all really irrational.

[00:39:44] And I think a lot of us don't always love it. Like I know sometimes like when I need to set a boundary is when I feel like the least cool. Um, link,

[00:39:59] Nina Endrst: you know what thank you for saying that because I'm not going to say like I'm cool. Right? Cause the least cool thing you can say is I'm cool, but

[00:40:07] Anna Toonk: I've, I mean, he was very cool.

[00:40:08] I'll say it. Thank you.

[00:40:10] Nina Endrst: I've always thought of myself as somebody who's. Pretty okay. In that department. Yes. But when I started setting boundaries, I was like, I am the most uncool motherfucker on the planet. Like all of my, like it's out the fucking window, bury dead leg, miss, like leather jacket, you know?

[00:40:36] Nope,

[00:40:37] Anna Toonk: shields

[00:40:37] Nina Endrst: boundary. She dead now. I'm like, oh no, I, well, we were visiting my aunt and sag a couple of summers ago before we all got whopped with the pandemic. We were Milo was like two or something and something, as you know, that I'm incredibly like absolutely zero. Bending on any it's like boundaries around my child and they wanted to go to dinner or something.

[00:41:07] She was like, okay. And just put them to bed later. And I was like, no period. And here's what I've learned to let that just linger in the air for awhile. Just what if you don't have to say more than that. Okay. Like I wasn't like, no, because then it'll be up and I'll be tired. And so, sorry. Wish I could maybe later, maybe another time I was just like, no, and I don't think she was like really comfortable.

[00:41:35] Although that side of my family is like very boundary oriented. They're just like super opinionated. People are like, I don't want to go there. I don't want to do this. I don't want it. And I'm like, okay. We all know when everybody wants whenever, but he doesn't want, but I. It's given me so much fucking peace.

[00:41:56] Yeah. So I might not be like the baddest bitch in the room. The way I used to be in this, like, not performative, but just. It was, those were walls, right? Like I, or I would, or it was free in some ways that I'm not free now because I don't live that have the same lifestyle. But when I get in bed at night and it's like seven o'clock with my kid, I am like, this is the fucking most peaceful thing because I've set my life up like that clients.

[00:42:25] To take, to do sessions after 5:00 PM. Like I literally ask Anna, I am so crazy about getting off the phone at five

[00:42:42] Anna Toonk: I have a question for you because I do, I do think you set like you, you, you do set hard boundaries, especially about your, your, your, uh, Milo's bedtime and your you'll night habits. So something that's hard for me. Sometimes when someone sets a hard boundary, like a firm boundary, let's call it from okay.

[00:43:05] And let's at winger doesn't defend or whatever is I feel the pressure to come up with a solution. What would you say? Like what would be a solution? I don't know. Or I would go, I think sometimes what's tricky is like, okay, so let's say, I don't know you and I are traveling for work for some reason. And it's like, well, nothing at night.

[00:43:32] Well, yeah, I know. It's like, I mean, I'm like, it's also like funny because it's like, it's been so long since, I mean, like, I haven't had to travel for work in a while obviously, and it's been a pandemic, but I'm like, oh, how would that work again? I'm like trying to even remember what my example is, but it's like, I think sometimes.

[00:43:54] Like, I know what I've known as the best for myself and with others, like in terms of boundaries is, and I don't know if I'm being a punk, like, am I being a weenie and maybe making a half boundary by being like, I'm not available after five, however, I am available these times. Like, that's when I feel like things go best for me.

[00:44:14] And I don't know if it's because it's, I also feel like I'm being helpful, which that's part of my shit. I like to be a helper, you know?

[00:44:23] Nina Endrst: I think that's very positive. I try to do that. I like, I always try to do that. I may not always, but I, I typically try to do that. If it's something I really want to do otherwise, I just say no, but I had something you said to me a couple of weeks ago was about, you know, doing an event, not doing an event at that fucking event.

[00:44:41] And. You were like, I just don't want it to be a wall. And I, and I took that in and I was like, you're absolutely right. Because sometimes I become too rigid in because I'm scared to let have things seep through. And it's really interesting if I see the way I used to be. Right. And the way I am now. They're polar opposites in terms of lifestyle, polar opposites, but it's kind of the same energy.

[00:45:16] It's just, I'm going really hard in the other direction. So I try to be really aware of that. I mean, not with Milo, because I do want him to have. What he needs and it does really just throw him off and throws me off. And it's just not worth it often. I mean, it's not like in the summer, I won't be like, yeah, let's stamp later or whatever, but I'm not an asshole, but.

[00:45:38] I find it's best for our family and if it's best for me and my family, I try to stick to it

[00:45:44] Anna Toonk: as much as possible. I also feel really aware of like something I feel like as I've gotten older, I feel really aware of is setting precedents. I understand what you're saying too about that creep of when it's like, I think people want to be able to make choices.

[00:46:01] I think people want to be able to decide what happens to themselves like that all makes sense. You know, I generally like. Care about anything. Like, I just want to know what I'm dealing with, you know? And I think sometimes like, maybe that is with other people, like what can kind of form with me about boundaries is you're telling me what isn't acceptable, but like I have a friend who kind of does this.

[00:46:23] It's always what isn't acceptable, but it's, but she's never communicating what is. And it's like, totally. That's that

[00:46:32] Nina Endrst: that's, that seems like a closed door

[00:46:34] Anna Toonk: to. Uh, it feels well, it feels that way. And then I get met with what I think are bids for connection. And I'm like, I don't know what is happening here.

[00:46:44] You know? Like it just feels very confusing. And I finally had to say like, listen, I don't, I have no problem. What doesn't work for you? Like, however, I'm a little bit stumped about what does, and now I'm not quite sure what would feel good to you in terms of like interaction, you know? And like, maybe that's dumb, but it's like, it's not a bad, you know, and like that's where I've also linked.

[00:47:10] I think. W have an issue with someone's boundaries. It's like generally I think, cause we've, we feel some sort of shame to be honest. And I think it's like, we feel some sort of shame that we transgress this boundary and that's something too I've gotten over and said like, I don't have to feel bad about it.

[00:47:25] Cause I didn't know what it was that it was one, you know, like we're both off the hook, like they're off the hook, you know, like. I'm not going to get mad at them for setting it. They're not going to get mad at me for, you know, for stepping over it. Now we all know, you know, like that's something I've tried to adopt as an adult, so sort of works.

[00:47:43] But, um, I also think like something I w uh, wanted to circle back to before we start to wrap up, is this, that I think it's also really difficult for women because of the myth of the chill or the cool. And that perpetuation, which, you know, there's the great rant that happens in gone girl. I just think like we've been so that, especially with romance and as it pertains to men and stuff like that, that like, it was so difficult for me to figure out romantic boundaries because I had become so invested with being.

[00:48:25] The chill girl, God, I mean, do you

[00:48:27] Nina Endrst: know how much sexual harassment? We've both probably endorse because of that very idea. I mean, I know how I have being in the room with my guy, friends and growing up and just throughout college and all of that, just it's unbelievable. The shit that was. Accepted or that there w I mean, I would give it to them all, but it was still not.

[00:48:58] Yeah, it just wasn't good enough. And one of the things about boundaries that I feel like people don't really go to immediately. I sh I certainly didn't was there. To feel to help you feel good. Yeah. They're not there to punish you or other people. Yes. So you don't have to go into it like feeling understandably.

[00:49:24] It will feel weird at the beginning, like everything, but it's not too. Come out in this like negative, which by the way, so gas lady that happens to especially women, when you do set a boundary, it becomes, especially if you're in like the gold girl kind of, you know, space it's oh, come on. You're usually fucking cooler.

[00:49:47] Like it's all serious now. Or like chill out. You know, that was my favorite. It's just chill, chill the fuck out, you know? And, but it doesn't feel good to, when you say that to me, it doesn't feel good. So that's why I'm setting the boundary because I would like to feel good.

[00:50:03] Anna Toonk: Yeah. And also like chill, like is a form of manipulation, which doesn't feel good.

[00:50:09] No, I realized like with the neighbor today that I was like, oh, I've want him to think I was cool and not cool. I've wanted him to think I was helpful and never bothered. And I was like, I am bothered. I'm annoyed. I'm over this, I'm over this dynamic of like, you don't plan your life. You just expect me to help you.

[00:50:28] And then you don't even say, thank you. I'm done with it. Oh, I mean, that's just not acceptable on any level. It's just not, I'm like I'm too old for this shit. So the essay I was mentioning is against chill by Alana Massey on media. And it's wonderful chill.

[00:50:45] Nina Endrst: Let's make that tattoo that on me.

[00:50:49] Anna Toonk: Well, and it's, I tease you about this, about the woman.

[00:50:53] I want to be chill, but God had other plans. Yeah. Because you and I both lack any chill and in so many ways, if somebody is new to boundaries, what's, what's your guidance for that? Be

[00:51:10] Nina Endrst: clear with yourself first, even if that's like a word direct, I'd say from

[00:51:17] Anna Toonk: respectful, but

[00:51:20] Nina Endrst: remembering that it's not. About being loved or not loved after the fact, like it's not a question of, will this person love me or accept me or deny me, or think of me in this way or that way.

[00:51:37] It's about you creating and cultivating and sustaining. A little bit more safety and peace for yourself, whatever that means. And that's worth an uncomfortable conversation or a million of them, because yeah, you have to respect yourself at the end of the day before anybody else. And that's really what keeps us move.

[00:51:59] And I think in a healthy, direct,

[00:52:01] Anna Toonk: Yeah. I mean, anyone you lose because you set a boundary. Like, I didn't really have, you know, they weren't

[00:52:07] Nina Endrst: really, this woman, she was a racist and she was like, not really. And I'm like, no, you are, you totally gassed. Let my husband, so you're dead to me by, I wouldn't say your dad's name,

[00:52:15] Anna Toonk: but she has another quote.

[00:52:19] I liked. I don't think I read this one was your personal boundaries protect the inner core of your identity and your right to choice by J M Hopkins, which I really liked, but to Nina's point like the, and this is something I've talked about in other spaces is like the success of your boundary is not predicated upon.

[00:52:42] The people were like, oh my God, great boundary. High five, give you a round of applause and our like totes girls support you in. So, you know, like hopefully people do, you know, like hopefully I would, I would want that should become the norm. I don't know that we're there yet. The success of boundaries is really that you like Nina was talking about self-trust without saying it is that it is about cultivating and reaffirming.

[00:53:12] That you have your own back and it's easy to like downplay the importance of that. I did for a long time. I was like most of the one I know I have my own bag. No I didn't. No, I didn't. I needed to do dedicated work to really rebuild and trust that about myself. And when I did it changed a lot. It freed up a lot of space and energy.

[00:53:37] It let me do a lot more of the things I wanted to do. So. It's worth it. Even if it feels really hard or you feel like you're just sort of like pissing off everyone in your life, eventually it'll sort of come to it'll kind of like level out in a way. I don't, I don't, I think

[00:53:56] Nina Endrst: it comes full circle too with people which I wanted to add.

[00:54:00] When you said earlier that we're not having the second part of the conversation about boundaries. I completely agree. It's. This like trend, which is weird, but I'm not, it's not like I'm not down for, you know, trendy boundaries, but we do have to have the followups. And one of the things we don't discuss is like, That it's, it doesn't have to be a popular kind of opinion.

[00:54:28] It doesn't have to be accepted widely, but we're not, it's not accepted widely mostly because we haven't, we don't have the language around it. Right. Like we haven't got a lot of people haven't been taught about this. So you don't, you haven't like missed the class there probably just wasn't one. Yeah. And it's okay that you're just finding it out and the people in your life don't know either, maybe how to deal with it or manage the, the conversation about it.

[00:54:56] And it might take time to get over a couple stumbling blocks. Doesn't mean people have to leave your life immediately. You'll know.

[00:55:05] Anna Toonk: Yeah. You'll know. You'll start noticing it. I think the boundaries are like a really. There like a real way to sort of see, I think who's willing to like work with you and be kind of like truly in a relationship with you, you know, like whatever that means.

[00:55:26] Like if they can hear you, it can be very, it can be. Uh, revealing and I think that's also a reason why we avoid it. We're like, I know this isn't going to go up, but that feels like a part too. Yeah,

[00:55:42] Nina Endrst: that's it. Yeah. And with that, we'll leave you because it's five, o'clock on the dot. So this is my boundary.

[00:55:53] We must go. Thanks for listening everyone. We love all of you. Thank you.

[00:55:58] Anna Toonk: We have do

[00:56:04] Nina Endrst: That's all for today's episode.

[00:56:06] Anna Toonk: If you're interested in submitting a topic or want to submit a question for our advice episode, please join our membership community howtobehumanpod.com.

[00:56:17] Thanks for listening, and remember, we're guides not gurus.