Right, John. Welcome back.

Hey, Brian, welcome back and welcome to folks who are listening. if you're new to Snap Decisions, this is the podcast that gives you a behind the scenes look at some of the big decisions that shape the way products and brands and personalities present themselves to the world. And today we've got a real expert at that. And following up our last episode, which is all about the Super Bowl. We've got someone who knows a little something about creating Super Bowl ads, good Super Bowl ads. Before that, what do you got for me, Brian?

You know, I was reading the news the last couple of days and saw a really interesting story that I wanted to get your reaction to, so, uh, in San Francisco during the celebration of the lunar new year, recently, a Waymo car, which is the driverless Google car, was set ablaze. A bunch of partiers set the car on fire in San Francisco, in Chinatown, as they were celebrating the Lunar New Year. And, the car was attacked driving through the neighborhood with, a partier throwing a firework into the empty car, causing the car to go up in flames. thankfully no one was in the car and no one else was apparently injured, which is great. But. I brought up questions on my end here. Number one, are we seeing a growing, backlash against technology? I think things are popping up all over our lives. Specifically in the, uh, self-driving category. A recent Washington Post analysis found at least 40 serious or fatal accidents among the 900 reported from Tesla in the last few years. Investment in that category is decreasing. With that, as well as all the things happening with AI and how it may replace jobs and how these things are just becoming disruptive forces in our society. People walking around with the Apple Vision Pro in the middle of a Uh, so, John, should we expect more of this type of backlash against technology? You know, I don't know that we can specifically say that the way mo explosion was a backlash against technology. But as tech advances, will we see, human backlash to the advancement of technology?

Hmm. I'm a little torn. first you said a few things in there about the situation, celebration, partiers. New Year's, fireworks, I don't know, it sounds to me like not too dissimilar from certain, I don't know, celebratory crowds post football game, you know, there for celebration, ends up in mayhem, I think that's more likely the case than a backlash against the technology, however, I do know People have a real visceral reaction to this driverless car thing, right?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think it would have happened if someone was actually in the car.

Yeah, no, you're right. I probably, you don't hear a whole lot about people throwing fireworks into Ubers, right? Thankfully. My kids don't get any ideas. yeah, no, I, I feel like, uh, it is. The autonomous self driving car thing is a little bit of a lightning rod topic for people for reasons I don't entirely understand. I think there's just that visceral visceral reaction in terms of a larger backlash against technology. I don't know. I'm not sure I'm seeing it. I'm seeing a lot of hand wringing about AI and people getting on their high horses with opinions, but I don't, has anyone really taken big action? Is anyone writing letters to congressmen in mass yet about, slowing down AI or any of the other digital advances we've seen? People complain about social media platforms using consumers as the product and people don't stop using it though. It just keeps going.

It just keeps going. there is some backlash against things like, um, self checkouts and a lot of brands are concerned about, theft. in fact, Target has recently, um, made some changes to the, the hours with which self checkout will, uh, be available in some of their stores. Because they're afraid even though it creates a better environment and people like it there are some other customers who have never really grown towards that technology, but I don't know that there's a lot of facts against the backlash yet either But it'll be interesting to watch The driverless segment is interesting. I think Yes, it's it's fascinating because the percentage of which there'll be car accidents through a driverless car will probably be much less than a human,

Much less.

but. The instances where there will be accidents could be in instances where a human might easily. Not get an accident, so look, it's, it's still in its infancy, but, um, it'd be interesting to see kind of where that goes and how people, become comfortable with that. So,

Yeah, I think there's a big difference between backlash and just, you know, complaining about stuff. But I don't know that anyone really does anything or really stops using these tools that, generally make their lives a little more convenient.

yeah, yeah, good point.

Alright, well, with that, should we, dive into talking to our guest? Our esteemed guest. All right, Brian, as you know, I am beyond excited to introduce one of the most influential people working in advertising today. Margaret Johnson is the first ever Chief Creative Officer of one of the world's best ad agencies, could be Silverstein and Partners. The agency is known for iconic ad campaigns like Got Milk? and The Budweiser Lizards, representing clients including Nike, HP, BMW, eBay, Doritos, Comcast, the NBA, and a whole lot more. And under Margaret's creative leadership, the agency has been recognized with pretty much every advertising award known to humankind. It was also named the most innovative advertising agency by Fast Company in 2021. Margaret herself was named executive of the year in 2018 by Ad Age magazine and cited as the ad industry's top chief creative officer by Forbes. Business Insider and Adweek. Name an advertising award, she's won it. She's also a tireless advocate for underrepresented professionals in advertising and is a founding member of the 3 percent conference, which we'll touch on in a little bit with her. This year she and her team had four ads in the Super Bowl, more than any other agency. With two of them excelling in national consumer polls. Talking like Walken for BMW, and Dina and Mita for Doritos. I could go on and on and on, but that would cut into our time with her. Please welcome Margaret Johnson. Yeah! All right, an advertising legend in our presence.

Thanks so much for asking me to be on the podcast.

All right, Margaret, to get started, just can you orient our guests and tell us a little more about your role at could be Silverstein and Partners, and and maybe fill us in on what exactly does a Chief Creative Officer do?

So I am Chief Creative Officer here at Goodby Silverstein and Partners. And I basically, oversee all the creative work that leaves the building.

So let's get into the fact that you did just produce all those Super Bowl ads, uh, more than any other agency. What kind of effort goes into that? Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, the steps that are involved in creating a national ad, um, and whether it's really a whole lot different to do one for such a big event?

I think it's really different than any other, you know, brief that, that comes through because there's so much more pressure on it. There's so much, you know, money and celebrity involved that, uh, you have a lot more eyes, um, on the creative work. You have a lot more clients that are, you know, a part of the process and onset. So, yeah, it's, there's a lot more pressure there for sure.

And what are the steps? Like, how does it, how does a bill become a law? How do you, how do you get from kind of that, that brief you mentioned to a finished ad that runs in the Super Bowl?

It's funny. It varies from client to client. We've been doing Super Bowl spots for, you know, Frito Lay and PepsiCo for a long time. So that process starts. a lot earlier. Those clients are, really savvy and they want to be a part of the process. And they're, uh, incredibly organized when it comes to producing this kind of stuff. For Frito Lay, we started in the summer, so months and months and months. ahead of time. Um, then on the opposite end of the spectrum, you have a client like Kawasaki, who had never been in the Super Bowl before, and we only started, a few months in. So, it, it kind of depends on how seasoned the client is, uh, in the Super Bowl arena,

can you talk a little bit about, organizing all those different types of people and, and pieces of it between, you know, the brand and the celebrities, all the crews you're working with, your creative teams, all these influencing factors that go into the ad? Like, how do you guys kind of keep it all running together?

You know, it kind of just, you do it bit by bit. I mean, on the celebrity front. You know, initially you'll pitch an idea to the client. They'll like that idea. You'll have a few, celebrities in mind. You approach the first one. And, uh, honestly the name of the game is flexibility because if you don't get that one celebrity, you don't want your idea to, to die because that one person. Doesn't want to, uh, do the app. So, then you move on to the next one. So it just kind of like unfolds in that way. You just do it bit by bit.

Were there any ads this year that had a big unexpected twist or where that flexibility had to really come into play?

Um, yeah, for sure. I mean, our BMW spot's a great example. We pitched the idea, the client loved it. We got, usher on board and the whole thing at the time really hinged on, you know, his hit song. Yeah. And as we got into the negotiations, with the NFL and got into the specifics around the ad, the NFL said, you can't use that song because usher's going to be doing the halftime show. So you can't use that song. Um, so then we had to go back and rethink the whole ending. So that's a great example of like flexibility is kind of the name of the game when it comes to Super Bowl.

Well, it worked because that, that kind of subtle little yeah at the end actually, I think kind of had a little more impact.

well, it also worked really well with our position in the lineup because the spot ran just before the halftime show. So it kind of teed that up nicely when you cut to him singing it.

Can you talk about, your different teams internally? Like, is there a lot of, a little bit of like fun competition between your teams to come up with the best spot or how do you guys kind of work together

there's definitely, um, a healthy competition around here for, you know, you know, who it's, it's a jump ball usually, so you have a lot of teams initially throwing in ideas and, not every team though is, is, is up for it. I will say that I think we've been doing it long enough that people around the creative department know that it's you're in for the long haul when you sign up for Super Bowl, because. So much goes, into testing and things that are just completely out of your control. So you kind of need to go in eyes wide open, knowing that It's not gonna be easy.

How are the senior executives involved like yourself? are you, you try to give people space to be able to do it or do you have to be more involved just because it's such a, such a larger magnitude? How do you get involved?

Yeah, I mean, on Super Bowl, very involved because, you're dealing with the most senior clients for, each brand and like I said before, there's just so much money at stake and celebrity and there's just, a lot on the line. So, in the case of Super Bowl, I'm, I'm really involved in that whole process. I always go to those shoots.

So, Margaret, I've Always wondered, when you look at the day after analysis of, you know, what Super Bowl spots people like, um, you know, there's so many that are super funny, super memorable, really dramatic in the moment, but a lot of them, you go two days down the road and people have no idea which brand did what. Uh, or it didn't change their opinions or purchase behavior. When you're building ads for such an entertainment focused showcase, like the Superbowl, how do you focus your teams on creating something that you think will actually move the needle? It will actually work for the client.

I think the key there is, and we talk about this a lot, um, at the agency is to make sure you're, you know, making stuff people care about. That's the only way that your idea is going to break through and that people are going to remember the brand, right? They're going to, you want them to, to watch it and think to themselves, that brand, they really get me. I want to, I want to interact with that brand. I'm going to buy their stuff.

So as a consumer yourself, when you're watching, are there times when you watch something and you just go, Oh my gosh, I can't believe they spent all that money and no one's going to know what that was for or what I'm supposed to think.

Yes. What a waste of money. Well, you know, and then, you know, in a lot of cases, they're just promoting the category when they don't break through and do something that's memorable. Um, they're doing their, their own brand of disservice.

prepared to name any names?

No,

Come

not my first rodeo.

under a bus. I'm kidding. Of course not. Those same clients are probably going, maybe we should call Goodby Silverstein to Barton or Sedora next year, cause

I hope so.

we just wasted a lot of money.

you know, with that obsession of the cost of the Super Bowl ad, you know, everybody talks about it and everybody kind of follows how much more and more it costs each year. How do you manage that with brands and, um, you know, especially the ones that are on the fence and whether it fits or, or people that you maybe say this may not be for you, even if you have the money, are you dealing with things like that?

Yeah, I mean, it's an interesting question. There's so many platforms now that it's really hard to, reach all the audiences that you're, trying to reach out to. And the Super Bowl is advertising's, you know, biggest stage and, you know, It's the the one day a year where you can reach everyone all at once. Everyone's watching everyone from, you know, tiny little kids to great grandparents. Um, so it, it is a valuable bang for your buck,

Any ads in this year's game, Margaret, that you wish that you had worked on,

You know, I really liked the, um, the Paramount Plus ad. I didn't,

it, so did Brian.

Oh, yeah. Well, I feel like I didn't get the. The, the attention it deserved, but there were so many other, studios that were just, pushing their sizzle reels and using, their properties in a pretty generic way. And I just thought they did a really nice job of taking those properties and, creating something that was conceptual and, and really, really interesting. And they still had all the things, um, that work on Super Bowl. You know, they had celebrity, you know, Drew Barrymore. Uh, they had like great music with Creed. They had even animated characters. Like they had like all the ingredients. They actually did something that was memorable and conceptual. And I thought they did a nice job.

You know, we had a, um, day after quick rundown of the commercial podcast. And they released that so early that I wonder if it kind of ran out of steam by the time the game came around, because a lot of people had seen it before the game started. What are your thoughts on the pre release? I like watching it in the moment. Now I know that spending a lot of money, you might be in a room with a crowd of people and not be able to, you know, hear the commercials. So like, it helps the brands to release them earlier, but what are your, what are your thoughts about when to release a commercial?

I mean, as a pure creative person, I'm with you a hundred percent. I like being surprised and seeing everything fresh. And for the first time during the game. But if I'm a client and an investment strategy, I think there's a lot to say for releasing it early and making sure that, you know, the celebrities or influencers that you have involved are helping you push out that content ahead of time so that you're getting, as many eyeballs on, on the creative as possible. It's going to be the most effective in that way.

and I guess some of the thinking there on the pre release too is it lets you have a little more runway on whatever digital experiences, you know, companion pieces you're making to go along with the ad,

that's exactly right.

how big a challenge is that for you? It's not just that you can do an ad and move on. You've gotta create a whole experience around the advertising. How is that a stressor for the agency and, and how do you approach that?

stressor, but it's definitely a part of the process. You know, you want the ripple effect. You want to have, the excitement pregame. So people have something, that they're looking forward to. You want to have the spot itself. And then after, the game, you want the, the idea and experience to, to live on. for Kawasaki this year, we did a promotion or a partnership with Great Clips. And so we gave away. 15, 000 free mullets after the game and, you know, that just kept the conversation going. I don't want to talk

Yeah. Do we, do we thank you or curse you for having 15,000 more mullets in the country walking around that that's, that's a tough call.

think you'd look good with a mullet, John.

I was, I was approaching mullet hood, last fall.

there's been a lot of conversation in the last several months on, you know, brands making big investments in advertising and marketing and maybe not seeing immediate results. the one that really comes to mind is the conversation around solo stove who had the black Friday, um, advertising with Snoop Dogg I think immediate sales are a fair question, but it's really not the opportunity that, that these types of opportunities present. I mean, like, what are your, what are your thoughts on managing clients expectations of what they're actually getting out of, uh, an ad on a large scale?

I think you have one big opportunity to insert yourself into pop culture now and Super Bowl is that opportunity. It is advertising's biggest stage. And like I said before, everyone is watching all at once, you know, from little kids to great grandparents. So you're, you're getting a lot of bang for your buck, and it's a great opportunity to get lots of different kinds of people and lots of different audiences talking about your brand.

What was the, uh, what was the first Superbowl ad you ever worked on?

I think the first one that I ever did, was Fire and Ice for, um, Well, it was the first Super Bowl spot to ever have two brands in one commercial. And we did it with Mountain Dew and Doritos. Definitely, uh, definitely a hairy experience.

wait, why, why Harry? What happened? I

well, originally, and If you remember that commercial, it featured, Morgan Freeman and Peter Dinklage, and they were having, It was kind of a, a dueling banjo, kind of, they were rapping against each other, and a rap off, and a rap battle. And, uh, we had originally cast, uh, Kevin Spacey to play both roles. So he was going to be, in this rap battle with himself, representing each brand. And then the night before he was to sign the contract, he had his me too moment. And, uh, we had to quickly switch, like I said before, the name of the game is flexibility when you're working on, on super bowl and not, you know, you can't get yourself too tied to any one,

Yeah. I mean, look what could happen this year with, uh, FanDuel and the Carl Weathers. I died before the,

Yeah, that could have been, that could have been terrible, but they actually were able to salvage something decent out of that. I mean, not the ad, but the reference to Carl Weathers.

Well, the interesting thing that happened on this one was that, part of the fun of that ad is seeing someone super unexpected, you know, rapping and, When we found out that, you know, Kevin wasn't going to work out, obviously, the easiest thing for us to do or for the client to do was to, to switch gears. They already had a relationship, um, with, uh, Kevin Hart and they were like, well, we'll just use Kevin Hart instead. And I remember I was sitting in my car, it was the night before Thanksgiving and I, I thought I was going to have a conversation about this whole thing with, one client and it ended up being 15 clients and me on the phone and I had to make a case for why it would be more interesting to hear Morgan Freeman rap. Missy Elliott than to see Kevin Hart rap Missy Elliott. And my whole thing was that, you know, everyone expects Kevin to do something funny, but you don't expect Morgan Freeman to do something that, unexpected. So anyway, it was a whole conversation and a long one, but it worked out.

Wow. Well, great call, right? Really great call that you were able to advocate in kind of a high pressure situation for something that turned out to be a real winner. Um, you answered my question about any, you know, really big pivotal moments that we had to make a snap decision because that's what this podcast is all about, but you just answered that. That sounds like a pretty in real time decision to go somewhere different.

Yeah, I think that one is, uh, burned in memory. It has been one of the most, uh, stressful, and, you know, the first situation like that I've been in, so it's, a good learning experience.

trial by fire and dice.

Yeah, exactly, exactly.

I know you can't name favorites, but is there a Super Bowl ad campaign you've worked on that really just stands apart? is just so memorable for you, like really high impact for you

know, I, I, I really, you know, you love all your children.

Exactly.

But I did love the, the cool ranch spot that we did. Was, a dance off between, Sam Elliott and Lil Nas X. And that one just had, it was a fun one to shoot, but it also had, um, a great, we were, you know, talking before about. Um, extensions of what you're doing after the game, and it had an awesome extension, a Sway app that we produced that, you know, let the consumer dance like Lil Nas and, um, put tons of, really fun content out into the world. So that one stands out. It was a really simple idea. Loosely based on the good, the bad and the ugly. Uh, but the, the fight was over a bag of Cool Ranch Doritos. And it was just, it was just a fun one,

Yeah, that's a winner. And one that, you know, just with all that passage of time, I do remember being for Cool Ranch Doritos without you having to say it. So, and you teed up, I think, a really interesting transition. Goodby Silverstein Partners used to be known kind of as a TV first agency, or maybe that was your competitors who are putting that out there. I don't know. But, um, yeah, probably. But you, you really navigated that shift from traditional media like TV into digital media, the digital media landscape incredibly well. How did you in the agency make that transition?

You know, for me personally, I've always been really interested in the tech side of things. I'm married to a former tech journalist. So, um, like it or not, I've kind of been on this journey. Since, you know, since like 99 so, I just am genuinely curious. And interested in technology. We have an in house innovation lab here at the agency. It's called GSP labs, where it's filled with lots of, people who like to tinker and make prototypes and help us educate the agency about the latest tech that, is coming. We're lucky because we kind of get that first wave of tech just because of our proximity to Silicon Valley. So it's just a part of who we are these days and very much a part of, um, how the work gets made, you know, creatives will sit in, we have these tech talks where they, you know, they're kind of like, Education, you know, workshops and a creative might hear about a piece of technology and not immediately think that it's applicable to something that they're working on. And then, a brief comes across their desk and they're like, Oh yeah, you know, they filed it away and they pull, pull it back out of the drawer and they're like, okay, this is my chance to, to do something really innovative for the brand that I'm working on. And lots of ideas are born that way.

That's cool. I'm sure the labs playing around with some, augmented reality or apple vision pro stuff right now.

Yeah, we're doing a lot of experimenting with that stuff. I mean, that kind of experimentation's been going on forever. I think 2016 was when we did our first VR experience. And that was for, the Dali Museum. It was called, Dreams of Dali. But it was kind of our, dipping our toe into, to VR way back in 2016. So we've been doing it for a long time.

So being ahead of the curve like that and having those in house resources like The labs probably helps attract a more digitally savvy, digitally attuned creative director and writer and art director, right?

Yeah, and it helps attract. Super innovative talent, and it also really helps, as a strong assist to those who aren't as tech savvy, they have, a whole team of people that they can, can lean on to that.

I've noticed over the past year or so, you've been a little bit out front, uh, in terms of the advertising community, in terms of talking about navigating the, collision, of generative AI technology with human creativity. So, can you talk a little bit about how Your organization, how could be Silverstein and Partners, which is totally powered by human creativity. How do you handle the speed at which the machines seem to be, uh, getting really good at generating creative content?

It's funny, I did a whole conversation about this with Brad Lightcap, who is the COO of OpenAI, and we did this at Cannes last year, and it was. standing room only. Like you have, you know, you know, audience of creatives asking, asking the same thing and you have to embrace it and just run straight towards the fire, is my advice. You know, we, we work really hard to keep the agency Super educated on this front. We have an ongoing relationship with, um, hugging face, uh, and they are, one of the lead lead tech companies on the on the circuit. And, uh, they come in regularly and do workshops with the agency to make sure that we're, up to speed on the latest tech. As MidJourney and Dali have really caught on, especially in the world of art direction, we've just made sure that every art director in the building is proficient in, MidJourney and Dali, just to make sure that, our comps are super tight and we can do things You know, a lot faster and we can just move at the speed of technology and culture.

That's a. I don't want to say it's scary because it's so exciting, but you don't know what you don't know, so where do you draw the lines and how do you let people play and still not make mistakes that could be, really impactful.

Yeah, it's, it's all, it's all true. I mean, you have to approach it with a conscience. Right?

Way to put it. Yeah.

Well, I'm comforted too by your point that you're urging your creative directors to embrace it and kind of run, run to the fire, like you said. Because I think a natural reaction would be to kind of like, Oh, no, let's, let's push away. Let's say that's not a good thing. We shouldn't go down that path. Let's do what we've always done.

You can see those creatives who aren't embracing it getting left behind. you really do have to just reframe your perspective and approach everything with a beginner's mind. And just know that, you know, on the tech front, things are, they're changing and they're changing fast. And if you're not embracing, then you're going to be left behind.

What other exciting things do you see out there about how brands can reach and interact with, with consumers today. Yeah.

The, the most interesting thing to me is that there is a lot less. of that one way conversation, like the fire hose effect, and it's a lot more interactive. So the brand, you know, throws the ball and then the consumer is throwing the ball back. It's, it's fun. It's a lot more, playful and interactive and that's what you want, right? You want people to love your brand and want to be a part of it. That's what's going to make them. Talk about it and want to buy your products. So again, like a good guide is just make sure you're making stuff people care about. So then they'll throw the ball back.

Margaret, I've heard, Rich Silverstein say that clients get the work they deserve. And I've heard him say, yeah, as someone who. You know, personally, I've always been kind of turned off by seeing clients who treat their marketing partners poorly or like a commodity. Um, I've always really liked that sentiment, and I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about what makes a great client partner. You've talked about the Super Bowl ads and how early you start and how you've been very able to kind of navigate, uh, tough creative decisions in the moment with them. But what, on their side, what are the characteristics of a good client partner?

Transparency is a big part of it. Like being really clear with your agency. On what's the objective? Is it to sit in the middle of culture? Is it to drive sales? And if so, what's that mark? What goal are we trying to achieve? Because without that information, you know, creative is just that it's just creative. So you kind of need to have that goal in mind when you're from the very beginning, when you're even thinking of of the ideas. And I think just being, really honest even when it's hard. So, you know, I think a lot of times clients will, when in a situation, where they're giving feedback, they aren't maybe as brutally honest as, as they should be. It ends up being a disservice if you sugarcoat things especially in the case of something like Super Bowl, times of the essence and you're moving quickly and there's a lot of mistake and you want to make sure that everyone is, on the same page. That's how you're going to be successful.

Um, what are some of the ways that kind of a support model has changed in, in terms of like your creative resources, that you put in place to support a brand, you know, is the makeup of those. That staff, has it changed or do you need different types of resources to support them

well. For us, our innovation labs a big part of every brief now. So it used to be that, the strategy department would present, the creatives with a brief and that's the way it would all begin. But now we bring in our innovation lab from the very beginning because we want tech to be a part of every idea that we put out into the world.

I gather from everything you've been saying about technology and, traditional creative skill sets, there are probably some really rewarding campaigns recently that have combined those things, anything recently that stands out in terms of being super rewarding because it does bridge, the human creative components and the emotional touch along with a real strong interactive component.

Yeah, well, for me personally, I, and this, we kind of came up with this idea in the agency, but I have a nonprofit with my daughter called Daughters of the Evolution, and, um, it all kind of started with. Us doing a panel at Cannes about they had asked me to do a panel about being a woman in advertising. And at the time, my daughter was 9 and said, that sounds like a really boring

Thanks for the vote of confidence, honey

And I was like, you know what? And she's like, you've already done that talk a million times. And I was like, okay, you're right. well, maybe they'd rather listen to, to what you have to say. And so we ended up inviting, five CCOs and their daughters, all different ages. Up on stage, it can to hear their perspective on that thing. We came out of that. My daughter and I were like, you know what? We're going to make daughters of the evolution. We're going to turn that into a nonprofit. And so we did that. And the first. Thing that we put out into the world was, an AR app and, it was kind of born out of my daughter who, came home one day and was like, why is it that there are no? Women in this history book that I'm studying. And so I went to the innovation lab and I was like, this, this has to be like easy for us to solve. We're never going to change the actual textbook, right? But if we could create just like a simple AR app. So if you hovered over the picture of. Abraham Lincoln, or George Washington, or all the faces that you're used to seeing in these history books, and you were, um, served up an image and a story of a woman that you probably never heard of, but did something equally cool around that same time, that has to be possible. And they were like, that's 100 percent possible because, there weren't that many photographs taken back then, so. We can create an app that will register all those photos. We'll just feed those photos into the app and every book has the same photos because there just weren't that many being taken and,

cool idea.

but that's how we came up with Lessons in Her Story and, you know, we launched it at South by Southwest. Uh, and immediately, like, Davos picked it up, and it kind of spread like wildfire, the Smithsonian was interested, and, that one is, for me, personally, one that, that I'm really proud of.

That's incredible.

It really is. That's a fantastic

All right, that was kind of a long story, a long answer.

it's a great story, and I love that it originated with an observation from your daughter. That's really neat.

Yeah.

so, speaking of that, can we talk about the 3 percent Movement? I know that that's an initiative that is committed to addressing the fact that women and people of color are incredibly underrepresented in senior creative roles. Can you talk about some of the progress that movement's made, and how close it's getting to what remains a tremendous gap?

Well, it's amazing to me that like 80 percent of all, purchase decisions are made by, by women. and there are so few women that are at the top, on the creative side. And that's, we have made progress. When I got involved in 3%, that's, that's actually what that stat. Represented when there were only 3 percent of the creative directors in the industry were women at the time. And I think we're up to 12 percent or something. So we are, we are making progress, but we're still still work to be done. But I admire Kat Gordon. She is the 1 who really spearheaded that whole effort in the beginning and invited me to be a part of it. At the very, very beginning, I was a part of the, very 1st conference and, she's just made a tremendous impact on the industry.

That's cool. Yeah, I saw on the website that, is there something like only like four categories where men are actually the primary decision maker, but everything else it's, it's, you know, it's equal or majority female decided, right?

Yep. Yeah,

So, contrast that with still how far away it is from 50 50 split in terms of chief creative officers. It's amazing.

I'm really proud of, you know, at our agency, when I became a partner, I was one, the only woman, but one of, I think it was six at the time. And, um, now we're 50 50. So I'm proud of that.

Can you tell us a little bit about your own career journey trajectory, um, at Goodby and, you know, how you've moved along the way and, some of the important people that have kind of helped you get to where you are today.

Yeah, I mean, I started at the bottom. Uh, well, actually, this is kind of an interesting story. When I was at the portfolio center, I went to an ad school after I got out of UNC Chapel Hill. And, um, I used to follow this art director. His name was, uh, Jeremy Foster. And I always loved his work because it didn't feel like advertising. It felt very editorial and artistic. And. I was, I just always wanted to, to do that. I wanted to make my stuff look like that. And, um, so let's say I loosely patterned my portfolio after his and guess what? I sent him my portfolio and he liked it and he hired me for my first job. Uh, he worked at Litter Bonnie Handley, Barton Kelly and Providence Rhode Island. And, he had grown up at Goodby Silverstein and Partners and He was now working at this little shop that was run by David Lubar's in Providence, and pretty much as soon as I got there, he moved back to San Francisco and took his old job back at, uh, Goodby Silverstein. And, uh, so I ended up leaving Providence. I went to Dallas. I worked for a guy named Grant Richards, who then, like, almost as soon as I got there, left and came to, To GSP and then these two guys brought me here. So that's how I actually landed at GSP. And then, like I said, I just kind of worked my way up from the bottom. I started out as a junior art director and then just over time kind of worked my way up.

So that's a pretty rare situation where you've got someone who's a chief creative officer whose tenure is not exclusively but largely at the same agency. I know agency folks tend to hop around a lot, um, so I think that must be a testament to kind of the relationships you've built there.

Well, I had great, I had two great teachers.

yeah, so that was, that was the other part of the, Brian's question and the one I'm curious about too is like, you know, who, who's kind of lifted you up? I know you like to lift others while you're rising. Who's lifted you up?

You know, Rich and Jeff are incredible teachers, mentors. They've just always been, they advocate for great ideas. They, aren't too hands on, but help you when you need it. And I don't know, I'm just really fortunate that I had both of them kind of watching after me along the way.

What advice do you have for young creatives kind of getting into the business and into the industry overall?

Stay hungry. I was telling the story, to a group of, we have a school here called the Academy, an in house advertising school. And I was telling the incoming class that they were like, well, what do you mean stay hungry? And I was like, okay, here's an example when I was at UNC Chapel Hill. I was in the advertising sequence, but the program was really geared towards newspaper writing and I took a class at Parsons School Design in New York during summer school and then realized that, okay, I'm supposed to be on. The other side, not the writing side, but I want to be on the art side and I need to put a portfolio together and they just didn't offer that at Carolina. And so the day I was leaving New York, and this will date me, but I like tore out the yellow pages out of a phone book that was on out on the street in front of my apartment. And I took it back with me to Chapel Hill. And I was like, okay, I have to figure out how to put this portfolio together. I'm just going to call all these agencies and ask someone. And so I started cold calling all these advertising agencies in New York. Now, I mean, if you think about it, like J Walter Thompson and BBDO New York at the time were giant. giant agencies. And here I am in my dorm room in Chapel Hill calling. I'm like, Hey, may I speak to someone in the creative department? And they're like, anyone? I'm like, yeah, anyone. They're like, okay. Put me through. Some poor soul answers the phone. And I'm like, Hey, I'm a student at the University of North Carolina. And I'm just curious, like, where do you put those portfolios together that people have that want to get into advertising? And And 9 out of 10 creatives said there's a school in Atlanta that helps people put portfolios together. It's called the Portfolio Center. So, then I had my answer. But that, I probably called 40 agencies.

God,

The kind of like hunger that I like to see and people, you know, when I'm interviewing them, cause I know those people really care and they really want it.

Does anyone still do that? Do you, have you ever gotten a call like that? Or is it all just LinkedIn and

No, I think I'm the only crazy one crazy enough to do that.

You know, you definitely had to work a lot harder back then in terms of, finding people, you know, picking up the phone and having to call people and, much less back then having to print and mail all your resumes around to spend your portfolio. Yeah,

but, but, but you could stand out with a phone call a little bit easier than you probably can today with a LinkedIn connection request, maybe. All

Yeah, it's true.

right, so let's bring back yellow pages, phone booths, and hunger. I think that's what we've learned today.

Stay hungry. That's right.

Margaret, we had a lot of questions we wanted to ask you, and I think we covered almost all of them, and you've been so good at answering them, and just interesting stories and fantastic perspectives, so thank you so much. It's been great.

Thanks so much for asking me to be on the podcast.

Beyond thrilled to have you. And I feel like maybe with your, uh, celebrity connections, maybe you could help us with one of our hopelessly unattainable guests. We end each episode with a open letter to a hopelessly unattainable guest, and we are 0 for 10 so far, and we'll, we'll send you the list,

Okay, great. Send it over. I'll do what I can.

open some doors for us.

All right, thank you very much.

Thanks, you guys. That was fun.

Thanks, Margaret.

All right. That was fantastic. John. That was

She's great.

Yeah. Yeah. She's wonderful. Great perspective. Um, Really awesome to talk to somebody who's, in that seat and, making real decisions that we see every day.

Yeah. Talk about making decisions at the top of an industry.

Yeah. Yeah. It's awesome.

All right. Speaking top of, uh, industries. You got any, uh, top talent you're trying to bring in to, to be a guest in the future?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think I got a good target for us. You know, uh, it might be, it might be a tough catch, but, let's see what we can do. I am targeting, uh, Mr. Tiger Woods.

Ooh! Good.

So, uh, let me read my plea here.

Please do, because so far they've been real effective.

yes.

Alright, this is the one that gets, this is the one that lands the big fish. Go ahead. Come on.

All right. Dear tiger woods. I can't believe I'm writing you to join my podcast. It's a dream come true. Back in the day of the kid graduating from college, as you were beginning to demolish the PGA tour, I attempted to sell a humor piece, speaking to other golfers to conspire, to take you down a lot, Julius Caesar. You were too good for the game. No one else could get any attention. It was all tiger all the time. Everyone else was irrelevant. No one ever published my article for good reason. Your existence in golf brought all players and the game to a level. I had never seen more money, more sponsors, more TV, larger events. Everyone benefited in your excellence before you. It was nice to be competitive most weeks on tour with you. You expected to win every single time. You're a super legend that we definitely won't see again. We're both at inflection points in our lives, Tiger. You're less than two years away from the senior circuit, the champions tour. How crazy is that? I know I hate talking about age too. You recently parted ways with Nike after an incredible 27 year run and just launched a questionable new brand with Taylor made called Sunday red. Featuring a weird looking tiger print animal, but good for you. We all need to take risks. Let's talk about it together on this podcast, Snap Decisions. This time you won't have to look for any knives in the back. Sincerely, Brian and John.

There's a lot going on there. I'm not sure about my name on that one. Wait, was it positive?

Yeah,

I heard you make fun of his new brand. Uh, I heard that you wrote a humor piece trying to take him down.

I did.

okay. Um, okay. Yeah. I, how could he say no? Yep. Print it. Ship it. Why don't you put your return address on that one, would you?

All right. We'll let you know how that makes it out.

Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, our audience will know when they see, future podcasts featuring Tiger Woods.

All right. Until next time.

Have a good day!

See you later. Let's shut it down.