Welcome to the Big Careers Small Children Podcast. My name is Verena Hefti. I believe that no one should have to choose between becoming a CEO and enjoying their young children for much too long. Amazing people like I'm sure you listening right now have found themselves stuck on the career ladder when they have children and that leads to gender inequality in senior leadership because those people don't progress to senior leadership and the same stale, often male, middle class people leading our organizations. We must change this together and I hope that many of you listening right now will progress to the most senior leadership roles that you like where you can make the decisions that make our world a better place. Outside of the podcast. I am the CEO and founder of the Social enterprise Leaders Plus. We exist to help working parents progress their careers to senior leadership in a way that works for you and for your families. We have free events and resources on leadersplus.org where you can download helpful toolkits such as on returning from maternity leave, share parental leave, securing a promotion, dealing with workload challenges, or managing as a dual career couple. We also have an award winning fellowship community which is global for working parents who have big dreams for their careers but don't want to sacrifice their family. You'll join an absolutely wonderful group of people, a very tight knit, supportive group of parents who have your back together. You'll explore what your career aspirations are and you'll get advice from senior leaders who are also working parents about how to achieve those aspirations. You'll get new ideas to combine your hopes for your careers with your hope for your family. And you are supported by people who are experiencing what you're experiencing yourself. I'm really delighted that a larger majority of our fellows have made tangible changes following the program, be that becoming more senior in their roles, working shorter hours, having better flexible working arrangement. They always impress me so much with the courage that they instill in each other to do what is right for them without apologizing for having a family or apologizing for wanting that top job. Details are on leadersplus.org Fellowship. Today I'm chatting to Rebecca Brosnan about how she set up her portfolio. Career which is international, includes boards roles in listed organizations. She also shares how she sets boundaries and what her approach is to planning. She's an absolute advocate for for planning your career and clearly it seems to have worked really well for her given the level of seniority she's achieved. I hope you get something from the conversation. Let me know what you think.

Hi, I'm Rebecca Brosnan. I'M originally from the U.S. but I've lived in Hong Kong for nearly 21 years. And in terms of work, I'm the CEO and founder of the Halo Planner, which creates tools to help people achieve their goals. In addition, I serve on the board of Taylor Maritime Investments, which is a London listed company. And I'm the IFC nominated director of the Citibank, which is a leading bank in Bangladesh. And I also serve on two nonprofit boards. One is Mother's Choice, which takes care of children without families, and the other is Generations Christian Education, which is the operator of primary schools and kindergartens here in Hong Kong. And in my family I have a wonderful husband and two children, an eight year old son and a six year old daughter.

Lovely. I have that as well. Eight and six and a three year old.

Such a fun age.

Absolutely. And can you share with our listeners one thing you used to subscribe to about combining a big career with young children that you don't believe in anymore?

So I have always been pretty ambitious with my career. I had very lofty dreams and so I think I always wanted to have children, but I don't think I appreciated how much I would love them, how overwhelming that feeling was that I wanted to be with them. And when my first child was born, I even cried when I was outside a different room than him. And I was not prepared for how much time I wanted to spend with them. So I think I thought I'd be happy to travel, I'd be happy to work late nights and I I'd still be fine just seeing the kids on the off night or on the weekends. And it really was not the case. So that's something I had to adjust to and, and make career decisions around.

I mean, it's interesting because in Bay you've started your own thing, but you're also working quite traditional. I mean the finance sector in Asia, I'm not imagining it might it's the most forward thinking future of work type environment. How have you structured your working life then to fit with that desire to be present with your children?

Well, when I had my children I left executive roles in finance. So I was at the time I was working at the Hong Kong Stock Exchange. I was running corporate strategy and mergers and acquisitions and I then ran the commodities trading business and product development and I worked a lot of hours. And so when I decided to have children, I left and went to be the COO of an ngo, which was still a lot of work, a lot of responsibility had to be organized. But because it was Hong Kong based, there was no travel and an emergency was a real emergency. So if a baby had been abandoned, I got called in the night. But other than that we tried to keep pretty standard hours. So I was able to structure around that. And then since then I've decided to do a portfolio career of non executive roles. So serving on boards of companies which meet in a kind of physical session once a quarter and then maybe monthly calls. There's a lot of reading, there's a lot of work, it's very high impact but it's a lot of flexibility. So if I want to, if I have eight hours of board reading to do, I'm doing it at home and I can still get my children off the bus. So I've picked roles that allow me to plan ahead so I'll know a year in advance the dates of those board meetings. And that give me the flexibility to physically be where my children are when I need to be. It's not perfect. Things do come up. I think if something, if there's an emergency and you're on the board, it's a real emergency. So sometimes it's not perfect, but I, I feel like the balance for me is better because I, I get to see my kids in the afternoons every day.

Interesting. And it's interesting because a board career just for the listeners who are not, haven't thought of this before, but as a board member you are essentially part of a group of people who are the boss of the CEO. And so I think we really need to underline that that is very senior role and especially being on the board listed company, that's not, it's not a, it's not an opt out of the workforce. On the contrary, it's a real, it's a real opt in. And what I also like is that those are roles where you make decisions about money and resource. And I think that's important because not enough women and people from ethnic minorities have that power to decide on resource even if they have a name in, you know, if leadership is in their job title. And just to dig a bit deeper into this. What, what, how did you, how do you, did you get onto a board? Like what, what's the, what's the process? Yeah, I know it's like it's probably too long for a massive, for, you know, but I'm just interested, like how did that happen?

Yeah, so I think the first is that I was really lucky in my executive career. I did a lot of mergers and acquisitions so I bought companies or I looked at lots of different companies to buy or I would, yeah, basically looking at that and looking at combinations of businesses. So it was a, a long term, you know, strategic focus. So where is this business going to be in one year, three years, five years, 10 years? And technically, according to the best corporate governance practice strategies owned by the board. So I spent a lot of time in my corporate jobs actually working with the board, particularly at the Hong Kong Stock Exchange, and I led the acquisition of the London Metal Exchange, which is a largest base metals trading forum. And so I got to be very close with the board members and also got to see how they made their decisions, what types of questions they asked. So I think my executive career, I had a lot of exposure to boards and board members and how they think and what they cared about and, you know, how to prepare for boards, et cetera. I think the second thing that happened is I've always been really engaged in my community. So I was asked, as you say, I have a financial background which is always in the in need for schools and NGOs because a lot of people who choose to go into those roles maybe have more of a social work background or et cetera. So I was asked to join the board of my children's school and chair the finance committee. And so I did that while I was still working as an executive. And so I think it kind of set me up to be board ready for a corporate role. And then the other thing I would say just add for your listeners, because I know women on boards is a hot topic, is it just takes a lot longer than an executive role. So it's not like there's an opening and they interview and then you get the job and you hear within a few months it's, I mean, both of my boards took 18 months from the first discussion until finally joining because boards really plan long term on what type of skill sets they need and what type of candidates they want. And for a variety of reasons, it's a very in depth process, both with the board and with headhunters. So.

Absolutely. So real call to invest in that network. It doesn't hurt to have finance skills or to brush up on, on those. And I think in the uk, for our UK listeners, there's also an organization called Women on Boards who offer very practical support with board CVS that look slightly different. Did you always think it was going to be possible to have such a senior career with children or did you think, well, actually I probably have to choose between the two?

No, I don't think I ever thought I had to Choose. In reality, I feel like I have to make the choices a lot more than I thought I would. They were trying to schedule a board call on my daughter's birthday and I really put my foot down and said that I wasn't available. And then my other board had an emergency and I had to do the board call anyway. I don't think I imagined those types of conflicts where you just want to have dinner with your family but you also have your fiduciary which means you're responsible for the company and so it does take sacrifices. I don't know that I knew it would be as messy as it is. The big beautiful mess of having kids and senior roles and you do have to, you know, miss some birthdays but I get to be there for 90% of the bus pickups. So I feel like for me it, it balances out.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing so openly. And you. It's quite interesting to reflect on how you still did it even though it is messy. And by the sound of it, it's not easy. You know, from the outside might look quite easy that from four times a year you attend a board meeting but it's clearly much more intensive than that. So what makes you do it? Why not just you're in Hong Kong, I'm sure you could enjoy next lifestyle and just, you know, be very active in your kids school. Why do you do what you do?

Oh, I love working and I feel work gives me real purpose and especially in Asia a lot of the companies you're working with are from maybe emerging markets and so you're bringing, at least I try to bring the kind of global best practice of corporate governance and experience from my life and my career and you kind of feel like you add value and you're making that company better. You know your part. If you divide the board contribution by the number of board directors and you add your part, it gives me huge purpose and I feel very proud about what I'm doing. And I also love the companies. I mean I remember I was at a board strategy off site. We had kind of a three day off site in Singapore for a board that I previously was on in a NASDAQ listed company. And I remember thinking I would do this for free. It's so interesting and dynamic and thinking about where the world is going to be and how our company can can pivot and be ready for that next phase and what we have to do now and all the moving parts. I, I love it. I find it fascinating.

It does sound interesting. So I, I've never been an expat in. As I've worked abroad, but not in a traditional expat lifestyle, but from friends who do have that lifestyle. I hear that quite often there's a lot of it is the men who move because of their jobs and the women they follow. And then they're very gendered expectations, and maybe even more gendered expectations than when you. If you were back in your home country. I was wondering whether that's something you've experienced at all and any prejudices about what you should be doing or how you should live your life.

Well, I moved here almost immediately after university by myself. I had studied Chinese language at university, and I was trying to finish it off and become really fluent, which never happened. My Chinese is terrible. And so I sort of came here working. And my primary reason for moving to Hong Kong was the job I got. And then after about a year here, I changed jobs and went to be an investment banker. And I met my husband here, who, incidentally, is also an American who had moved here for his job at a different investment bank. And so our marriage was always based on two careers. And especially in the younger years, in the early days, there are a lot of women in investment banking. I would say they probably have 50, 50 in the kind of analyst and associate years. I was probably the only expat female, but I wasn't the only expat and I wasn't the only female. So I never really saw an issue with it. I mean, I love learning about different cultures and industries and countries. And so for me, it was just like drinking from a fire hose. I got to. I think I did 25, and the economy was quite good. Then I joined Merrill lynch in 2005. So, you know, I did deals in Indonesia and China and Thailand and the Philippines and Pakistan and, you know, everywhere. And I. And they were all different industries from shipping and gaming and cement and, you know, metals and mining. So I don't think I ever had any. And it was a. I was young, so I don't think the kind of wife, children thing really even factored in. I dated my husband for five years before we got married, and then we waited another five years before we had kids. So certainly our relationship and our social group was very, like, work focused.

And what was your lowest point, would you say, of combining a big career with young children? Can you remember any particular low points and more importantly, what you learned from them?

So many low points. I think so. I've always done okay in balancing work and the kids, but I haven't always done that well in taking care of myself. And I'm sure a lot of your audience struggles with self care. And I remember kind of getting super stressed because, you know, the list of things to do was just so long. And I don't think I'd had a haircut in four months. And I remember crying in the office and my. My boss, who's actually a mother of seven children and she's the CEO of a charity, she said, sometimes you just need to cancel all your meetings and go get a haircut. And I think, you know, sometimes we put these standards around, like, I can't cancel a meeting on anyone. I have to go to everything and be there for everyone. But actually, sometimes we just need to cancel all our meetings and go get a haircut. I mean, it really did so much for my mental health this year. I had. There was some confusion with the dates of some of my board meetings. And so I had to miss my daughter's swim meet. And I'm a swimmer. I was on the swim team at our club. And I've been kind of coaching her. And it was really disappointing to miss that. I was very sad. She seemed fine, actually. I don't think it bothered her. Daddy was there and, you know, we prepared and celebrated and I coached her. But I felt really horrible because I felt like that was a special thing, that I should have been there for her. But as I said, I think it is messy. And there's all these moments where you just. You have to make a choice, and it's. You just can't have both. But like I said before, if you're intentional about thinking about what matters to you, so it really matters to me that I read to my children in the evenings. I love to read them picture books. And I actually track whether I've read to them each day. And I aim to do it five nights a week. And so there are nights that I know I have a board meeting or a call, so I'll read to them in the morning. Then I can say at the end of the week, even if I missed dinner a couple times, that I read to them five out of seven days, which for me is pretty good. So I think there's periodic low points. I'm sure there will be more, but I would definitely wouldn't trade it.

You use the word messing quite a lot. And yet you also seem to be a really avid, passionate supporter of planning. And I'm interested. I mean, what's your personal approach? Do you try to have to be organized within the mess and craziness or do you just give up and go with flow sometimes?

So I don't think I've ever gone with the flow. But sometimes I do give up. So I have to be organized in my head mostly. I mean, I like my physical space to be organized, but I do have the ability to just ignore the pile of papers over there while I'm focused on something else. But I really have to be organized about my time. And I do kind of cascading set of planning. So I do a three day off site every year. Okay, it's not always three days and it's not always all by myself, but I take three days to plan what I really want to accomplish in the year and I set my goals. And then once a quarter I try to block a day to review how I'm doing. You know, just to kind of review and then a kind of tweaking. So maybe I'm, you know, one of my goals is I'd like to join a Hong Kong listed board. I was named to a Hong Kong listed board of a company who was going public but then their IPO was delayed because of market conditions. So I'm back on that goal. So what am I doing towards that goal? Am I meeting people? Am I talking to search firms? And then once a month I will take a morning and just kind of look at what I've accomplished that month and set my intentions for the next month. I do an hour a week, so on kind of Friday mornings I look at the upcoming week and all the things I have to do and I plan when I'm going to do them. And then each day I take about 10 minutes to kind of set my priorities for the day. And that way even if I don't get the 300 things done, if I get my most important three things done, I can feel accomplished and can kind of give up on the rest. Because you're never going to do it all. I mean, that's one thing I learned a long time ago that you're never going to get all the time with your kids. You're never going to get all the emails done, you're never going to get all the tasks done.

I feel like I'm speaking to my mirror image in the, in the planning world because I, I have come around to that as well. So, so I do similar. I probably, I definitely plan 15 minutes a day and I start today with that. And I also have planning time for weekly planning set out. I've got a, I've done those for, for my work Obviously I do long term planning, not so much for myself, but I think it's absolutely transformational. But the interesting thing is it felt like such a luxury at the beginning. Like I thought I should be working. Why am I spending time with my planner? Oh my goodness. That just. You have to get over it. Or even saying no to meetings during your planning time. It's such an interesting thing and yet it's made me so much more productive in terms of the actual value add of my role so I can advocate it more. I do think, and even if you understand it is going to be messy having a plan and having with the Leaders Plus Fellowship, we support people to create a vision and then create a backwards plan and so on from that. And I think even that process of creating it, it then makes it so much more likely that you achieve it is there's even research that makes it more likely that you achieve it.

So yeah, yeah. And there's research that for every one hour you spend planning, you save 10 hours of work. So you say it's a luxury, but actually you're buying yourself more time. And I think especially in the modern era, and I'm really careful about my digital use because I think so we use WhatsApp in Asia and I probably get a thousand WhatsApp messages every day. If you include my board chats, like all my boards have chats and then there's chats for the committees and then there's like subgroups within them plus all the individual management, CEO, cfo, COO of each company plus all the other board members and the chair people. And then you have all the kid chats and you have a grade wide chat and you have a class chat and then you have all the play date individual set up and then you have the soccer team chat. I mean it adds up. And so if you don't plan, you will be derailed by the constant requests for your time. So I try to do digital free planning, which is why I love using a paper planner. Because I can sit down with my planner and say, okay, here are the three things I'm doing today and I can check my phone at lunchtime and then I can deal with all the messages. Rather than being real time responsive, I'm able to do that, you know, because of my role, but I think people could probably be less responsive. There's, there's a bunch of models out there. I know you had a podcast recently about the four day work week, but there's a bunch of models out there about how we can use corporate Time more efficiently so that people can get more done and work fewer hours. And planning is definitely one of those tools.

I sometimes do coffee shop days and I encourage my team to do it as well. Where you just go to a coffee shop and work from there with the aim of not checking your emails, not logging into Asana or whatever tool you use. And that's, that's quite helpful, I feel. I, I always want to support women led businesses and I feel like this would be a good place to give a plug to your company. So why don't you share what, what your company does and how to get involved?

It was such a leap of faith, I have to say. So this year I've been using a planner. We've been talking about planning. I've been using various planners for years and I feel as you do that they just give me so much direction. And I also really enjoy it because I feel confident in how I'm spending my time. But what I found was no tool was perfect for me, partially because I have two kids plus four board rolls plus, you know, the million other things you're doing. And so I designed my own planner based on a bunch of features that I'd used elsewhere and some that I designed myself. And I combined it into a quarterly planner called the Halo Planner. So you actually get four books a year and the first page has your purpose and the second page has your impossible goals. And so the whole premise of the planner is we are all capable of doing so much more than we give ourselves credit for. And I think this goes into the imposter syndrome and the who do you think you are? And all this, all this that actually you are trying to combat, which is like, oh, I have kids so I can't do the things I want. But I have, I know because I've seen people do it, I'm doing it myself, that we can achieve great things while having great relationships and taking care of ourselves. It just takes a lot of planning. So this is a planner for people who really want to be ambitious, who don't think ambition is a dirty word, but also want to have a high impact life and be accountable to their loved ones. So the whole planner is designed really for people just like us who are working parents and have a million things going on, a million balls in the air.

Sounds great. I think the tricky thing with you doing 100 different things is board roles, your own business, kids, charity roles, is that it all bleeds into each other. Do you set boundaries? And if. Yes, how do you do it?

Yeah. So I'm really terrible at setting boundaries. I'll just be honest. I really struggle. So I have had to develop, you know, several tools on how to set boundaries. I think the first one is I come up with rules. So, for example, like I said, I want to take my kids off the bus three days a week, which means I only have two days a week for meetings, which actually really is not that much, especially given that I'll often have board calls. And so it kind of forces you to prioritize. So you can't say yes to everything because you only have those two and you have to save it for work. I also, within the Halo Planner, because I know particularly for women, but for men too, saying no is really hard. We don't want to disappoint people. And also I have the problem where I'm interested in so many different things. So I always want to say yes to more things than I can. I also want to encourage people. It's part of my mission to inspire others. But we just can't do everything. And so I created a page in the back of the planner called Saying no. And it basically asks you, what did I say no to? And what am I saying yes to? So I think it gives me the courage to say no when I really don't want to. So when I get that cringy feeling of I really know I should say no, but I really don't want to, I write it down on that, my. On that page to give me courage to do it and say, I'm saying yes to eight hours of sleep. I'm saying yes to having dinner with my family, and I'm saying yes to being totally prepared for my board meetings, because when I say yes to those other things, it means I can't get those really important priorities. And I think the other thing that's super important about setting boundaries is it. It doesn't mean no forever. It just means no right now. And sometimes that helps me. So I also have in the back of the planner a perhaps list. So it's like, no, I can't join that committee right now, but I'm going to write it in the perhaps list because it sounds awesome. I just don't have the capacity right now. And then I can review it at the end of the quarter, the end of the year, and see if it's something that I want to replace one of my other roles with. And so we're, you know, you said your kids are the similar age as mine. We're at a phase where our kids love Being with us and you know, they're so fun. And so it's not forever. I mean, I have a. Because I had my children a little bit older. I have a lot of friends whose children are going off to university or boarding school and they're in the grieving process, you know, because their life is going to change, they're going to the next phase. And I just want to have every single minute that I possibly can with my kids now. And there's always going to be time for another committee later. So that those are some of the tools I make rules about saying no. I track what I say no to and what it means I get to say yes to. And I keep a perhaps list of things that I might want to do in the future that it's not no forever, it's just no for right now.

Brilliant. Thank you so much. One more question I wanted to ask. Sorry. I'm really interested in what shaped you and what got you the way that you are. And usually that's advice that people get. And I was just wondering whether you had any moments or role models or pieces of advice that really shaped how you approach the combination of multiple big careers with two still relatively young children.

Yeah, before I had kids, I was doing a big deal and there was a senior female banker on the other side of the deal. So I was buying the company from her. But she and I got to be friends and there was just too many other men around and we stayed friends and she told me she had two kids who were both very good academically and sporty and thriving. And she had a huge career as an investment banker and now sits on the board of Footsie 100 companies. I mean really big ones. And she told me, when you have kids, make sure you have more help than you need, she said, because you're. It's a luxury of course, to be able to do that, but she said you don't want to be having to make the decision not being able to be on a really important conference call or stay in the office for a really important meeting because you can't cancel on your nanny again because she'll quit. Because I think for jobs like these where you're working quite a lot of hours and traveling a lot, you actually need more cover because you don't want to exhaust or disappoint the help you've hired. So even if you can't afford a full time nanny, I do think keeping the philosophy of having some buffer help so that I've had to go on last minute business trips, and you don't want to be scrambling for a babysitter. So I think just having a little extra. I know some people really struggle to hire help. And we made the decision to hire a nanny for each of my children when they were born. And so my children have had the same nannies. We decided to pay them very generously compared to the local standards. And we were very clear about expectations, which is the kids are safe, happy, and healthy and that they get along. And other than that, we don't care. And so I think we really tried to manage our childcare in the way we would manage any employees, about looking at compensation and goal structure and job satisfaction in the same way that I would look at any team member or management team.

Yeah, I think, as you say, that's a really wonderful position to be in if you can. But it is also something that I've learned. I think what I've learned is that even just having multiple babysitters and not just relying on one so that you can go to plan A, B, C, D if needed, and also that you have some friends, you try, if you have the ability that you make friends with the other parents at a school gate, because then you can help each other out in crisis situations. And I've been incredibly grateful for that.

I mean, I may point out, is that we have no family within 10,000 miles, and expat communities and our local Hong Kong Chinese friends, they're a little bit more nomadic. So, you know, I remember I've had to redo my will and my estate planning multiple times to put a guardian for the children because the people keep moving away from Hong Kong and they. They go to another country. And so I think we do that also because we don't have any other cover, emergency cover. So I think it's been important for us to have that.

Absolutely, absolutely. We're coming towards the end of our podcast, and as I said, I would like to challenge you to share three practical things. So if someone is listening to this and perhaps is in an executive role, wants to take on board roles, but also wants to do it in a way that works with bringing up young children, can you think of one or two or maybe even three things that take no more than five minutes that they can do this week to get the process started?

Well, I think there's lots of great training programs for board roles. I mean, there's so many. There's generalist ones, and then there's one on spec, some on specific skills. I did a course at Oxford focused on bank Boards, So only directors who wanted to be for banks. I did an incredible ESG training course online. I did a risk management course. So there's lots of training courses you could sign up for right now. And some of them are very short. You know, some of them are one day, and then some of them are, are multiple weeks. They're structured all different ways. And so I do think just getting familiar of the structure, roles and responsibilities for a board. I think the second thing about getting on boards is they happen two ways. The first way is through who the CEO and other board members know within their community. So if you have networks of people at companies that you admire, that you want to think about board roles, just getting to know them and talking about board experience and kind of just be more visible. The other way, of course, is the search firms. And so I try to at least once a year, catch up with the head of the board practice of each search firm. I want to caveat that I've never gotten a job from a search firm. I've always been through my own network. And I think in some ways search firms, although they're really trying to emphasize gender diversity, they tend to be more conservative because it's harder for them to take a risk. The way I got my first corporate board role was somebody just decided to hire me. And I asked him years later, like, why did you pick me? Like, I had no board experience, no corporate board experience. And he said, well, it has to be everybody's first time sometime. And I do think, you know, the people who make decisions about who gets hired and board have a lot of ability to appoint women and they should do it more. And I guess the third thing about boards is patience. I mean, that's not a five minute thing. But put it down as a goal, write it as your impossible goal. You totally can do it. And start thinking about a one year, two year, three year plan about how to get on a board. NGO boards always need people who will roll their sleeves up and participate. And I have loved my experience on NGO boards, and they are in no way at all less demanding, challenging or interesting than corporate board roles. It's, you know, and my, my two boards are filled with incredible professionals from all different walks of life on my two NGO boards. And I've loved it. So, yeah, that is, that's my three pieces of advice.

Wonderful. Thank you so much. And if people want to find out more about you, connect with you, learn about your work, where should they go?

So I'm on LinkedIn, Rebecca Brosnan and the Halo Planner is www.thehaloplanner.com H A L O and you can find the Halo Planner on Instagram as well. And I do tutorials about how to plan that. Even if you don't have the physical planner, you can kind of think about monthly, weekly, daily planning if you're just new to planning or you're new to goal setting. I do a lot of tutorials for people and there's a lot you can do even if you don't. Even if you just have a blank notebook.

Absolutely. It's been a real pleasure chatting to you, Rebecca. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much.

I really appreciate you listening. Thank you so much and I always love to hear from our listeners. If you want to connect with me on LinkedIn, just call to Ferina Hefti and I'll be delighted to hear your feedback and your suggestions or just have you say hi. Likewise, if you do feel passionately about gender equality and you want to support a female led podcast, then please do leave a review and share it with a friend. Just because at the moment podcasting is still a very, very male dominated environment. Most of the top charting podcasts are led by men. I really love all the people who've joined from the Podcast on Fellowship program and if you want to do the same then please head over to leadersplus.org/Fellowship in order to get access to a community of support to help you combine ambitious career with young children together with people who have your back. See you next week.