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Hey, I'm Justin Sunseri.

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I'm a therapist, a coach, and the creator
of the Polyvagal Trauma Relief System.

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This is a clip from one of the
meetups with my private community.

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We're going to discuss the polyvagal
free state, but in particular, how it

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relates to this thing that I created,
a resource that I created called SSIEC.

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It stands for State Sensation.

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impulse emotion and cognition.

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It's how our sensations,
impulses, emotions, and cognitions

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connect to our polyvagal state.

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If you would like to download the
resource, just sign up for my email list.

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I'll put a link in the description
for you on how to do so.

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It's for free.

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And then you'll be able to use
the SSIEC resource for yourself.

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or for your own client work.

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Enjoy.

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Some of the impulses and cognitions
described in the SSIEC tool.

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When I read them, they
do not make sense to me.

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I would like to better understand the
impulse of release in the free state.

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Can you elaborate?

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So freeze, imagine, um, let's put an image
to this, maybe it'll help make more sense.

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Imagine there is a, uh, well,
slinky comes to mind, you know,

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a slinky gets really tight.

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Well, it condenses and it could expand.

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So imagine someone's,
or we'll do a spring.

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That's a slinky.

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If you push down on a spring, you
can immobilize the spring, but it

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has all this tension inside of it.

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Like it wants to release.

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If you, once you release the
immobilization, it releases.

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So freeze I conceptualize similarly
where someone or a mammal could go

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through something, they tense up,
and to get out of that situation,

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that freeze energy is supposed to
explode into aggression or evasion.

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So fighting back or running away, and
it's one big release, one big burst of

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movement from, from that frozen situation.

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state.

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So, uh, for traumatized individuals,
if you're stuck in freeze, then that

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freeze activation can linger day to
day, but it can also be triggered in

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a specific moment by some, a trigger,
by a cue of that event, right?

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So day to day, it's still there
because the immobilization, the squeeze

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is still on if we stick to that.

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image of the spring.

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So the, the immobilization of shutdown
compresses the flight fight activation.

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And it, so it's really the flight
fight activation that's like ready to

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explode, but the, the immobilization of
shutdown is what's keeping it pushed in.

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So you experience at the same time,
the tension and immobilization.

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Yeah, it's felt as it
could be felt as tension.

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You experience the flight fight
activation, but it's just, It's stuck.

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It can't be used for what it's supposed to
be used for, running away or aggression.

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So it, the flight fight is
immobilized due to, uh, shutdown.

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So freeze is a combination of
flight fight plus shutdown.

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Sympathetic plus dorsal vagal.

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For people who are more of a freeze
traumatized state, when the freeze gets

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triggered, it's, it's the flight fight
being triggered with the shutdown.

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So it just stays like that.

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And what ends up happening
is that it explodes into rage

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or panic, which is too much.

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It's, it's a dysregulated release.

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And what we want is a regulated release.

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We want safety active along with,
well, we want safety active to, to

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turn down the shutdown, basically.

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So as that immobilization eases
up, we want the flight fight

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expansion to come gradually.

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We don't want it to,
spring and to explode.

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We want that to expand gradually.

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So as more safety comes on, then shutdown
can come off, hopefully little by little.

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As that happens, then we can release
flight fight a little bit at a time.

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Make sense?

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Yeah, total sense.

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Really clear.

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Thank you.

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And then you said, I would also like
to better appreciate how the following

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cognitions are connected to a free state.

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So let's, let's, let's, let's
ground ourselves back in this.

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So With freeze flight fight
is active, but it's stuck.

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It is frozen in place by
dorsal vagal immobilization.

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So imagine like you can
stick with the spring.

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That's I'm imagining it like jittery,
but we can imagine a car where

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you're slamming on the accelerator
and the brake at the same time.

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And the wheels just spin,
uh, the engine gets loud.

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It's revving the car shaking.

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Right.

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So that's, if that's the state of
the body, like what happens in our

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brain, what happens in our mind,
what happens to our thoughts, really.

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So in that state where it's highly revved
up and there's really no safety active,

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it's going to be kind of all or nothing.

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The thinking is going to
be very black or white.

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It's extreme thinking is
going to be pretty extreme.

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So when we say all or nothing,
that's what we mean is.

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There's no safety present,
there's no empathy, there's no

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compassion and consideration.

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I mean, at the extreme.

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It's just, it's just I'm activated
but I can't do anything with it.

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So thinking becomes very extreme.

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Because it matches the state of the body.

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The state of the body is in the
state of, uh, danger and life threat.

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So scattered, yeah, in that state,
you can't really focus on one

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thing, or I guess you could overly
focus and to the point of obsession

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on the next word is obsessive.

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So as a way to, I consider this with OCD
as a way to contain that out of control

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flight fight activation, the person's
behavioral adaptation might be to

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overly focus on something in particular,
uh, to, or create a ritual, you know,

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like Locking something six times.

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That ritual doesn't solve the
problem, but it might contain

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that flight fight activation,
that's just spinning its wheels.

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It might help to lower it enough to move
on to the next step of like going to bed.

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That's obsession.

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And then the compulsion is the
you're acting on it, uh, scattered

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for someone who's in freeze.

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It could be flight fight also, but freeze
it's thoughts could be all replaced.

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This is probably more with a
panicky kind of freeze because

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freeze can be rageful or panicky.

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Or overwhelmed or stress, stress, but
freeze in the more panicky flavor of it.

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I could see as scattered, like just all
over the place, not able to identify

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the issue or where the danger is from.

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I'm just focusing on this
and then this and then this

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and that flashbacks would be.

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Well, it's flashbacks.

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You're specifically the memory,
uh, an image or a re experiencing

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of the thing that put someone
into freeze the, the event.

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Grandiose that I would see that as
another one of those cognitive adaptations

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where it doesn't solve anything, but if
I can, if someone in freeze can focus

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on how incredible they are, it's like.

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Now that that might contain what's
happening within me that might help

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reduce my own freeze activation.

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If I can, if my, it's not, it's
not a conscious thought, no

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one's choosing to do this really.

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But if, if, if one can overly think
about a thing or, or themselves as

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being so much better than maybe, or
so much more capable than they really

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are, I don't know that might help too.

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If I could focus on that, maybe
that gives me a sense of containment

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of like my activation inside.

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It's a, I would call that a cognitive
adaptation versus a behavioral one.

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And then shaming, uh, that's
more probably due to the nature

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of where freeze comes from.

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Oftentimes is freeze comes from
acute traumatic incidents, like a, a

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thing that somebody went through and
those things are a lot of times can

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be, uh, assaults of various kinds.

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So those can leave somebody feeling
disgusting, shameful, ashamed, but it's

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really more about what was done to them.

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The person's inflicting
their shame onto another.

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So the thoughts in a stuck free
state may probably depending on how

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you got there in the first place.

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But the thoughts might be about, I'm
a bad person that I did a bad thing.

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You know, shame and
guilt are, are different.

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Guilt is I did something wrong and
I feel bad about, bad about it.

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And shame is there's something wrong with
me in my core as a, as a, as a person.

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No one's born like that.

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I don't think so.

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That probably comes from, I would
assume repeated incidents that left

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someone in more of a free state versus
like it could come from one as well.

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Can we have the shame because of this
free state, let's say we were assaulted

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and we couldn't move, we couldn't defend
ourselves, we were frozen and we feel

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ashamed, is it all linked together?

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Uh, yeah, it could be.

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Yeah.

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That's usually with
the people I work with.

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Plus, you know, messages that we get from.

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caretakers from trusted
individuals in our lives.

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Shame can come from a lot of places,
but it could be connected with freeze.

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The feeling of disgust, I
think, can go along with shame.

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Uh, the feeling of revulsion can, I
think, come along with shame and be

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connected to the free state in particular.

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I wondered if you work the conditions
to have an impact on the rest.

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On the stage or on the
sensation or emotion.

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So is that a way you can work, start with
the cognition and then make your way up?

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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That's usually where, I mean, not
usually, but many times where we start,

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uh, but yeah, you totally can just by
learning something like polyvagal theory

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or attachment theory, or learning for
some people, they like, um, different

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modalities like internal family systems,
learning a top down piece of knowledge can

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help someone to, you know, Make sense of
or contain what's happening within them.

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So, yeah.

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Yeah.

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Uh, a common thing I do with that's
top down is the validate, normalize,

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and give permission, uh, process.

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Where can you validate what you feel?

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Just name it.

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Can you normalize it, make sense of
it, and can, and can, can you then

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give permission for it to be there?

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And all, that's pretty
much top down stuff.

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And then once you do that, then
the bottom up, more bottom up felt

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experience stuff can, can occur.

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So yeah, it's totally, it can totally
be a way to calm, to contain, to

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make sense of, or even to eventually
allow, uh, what's happening bottom up.

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Thank you so much for
listening to this episode.

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I hope this was helpful for you
in learning more about freeze,

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the cognitions, and also the
underlying experiences of it.

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Again, if you want to download
the SSIEC sheets, it's for free.

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Just sign up for my email list.

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There's a link in the description for you.

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Otherwise, I hope this was
a helpful resource for you.

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Bye.

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This podcast is not therapy,
not intended to be therapy, or

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be a replacement for therapy.

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Nothing in this creates or indicates
a therapeutic relationship.

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Please consult with your therapist or
seek for one in your area if you are

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experiencing mental health symptoms.

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Nothing in this podcast should be
construed to be specific life advice.

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It is for educational and
entertainment purposes only.

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More resources are available in
the description of this episode

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and in the footer of justinlmft.

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com.