1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,480 You really just have to know your target, your target roas, as we call 2 00:00:03,500 --> 00:00:08,449 it, yeah, which is the hard cash number of, you know, what sales to come from 3 00:00:08,449 --> 00:00:12,209 first customers, first time customers, and how much have you spent every day. 4 00:00:12,309 --> 00:00:16,159 And that's every day, you know, we're, you know, retailers, we're traders, you, 5 00:00:16,230 --> 00:00:21,000 in my opinion, you have to know that number every single day of your training. 6 00:00:21,490 --> 00:00:24,619 And then if you're massively above, you've got great opportunity to go and maybe 7 00:00:24,619 --> 00:00:26,269 spend some more money and go faster. 8 00:00:26,669 --> 00:00:29,799 Or, you know, if you're below, then you really need to be looking at 9 00:00:29,809 --> 00:00:31,159 how your channels are performing. 10 00:00:31,599 --> 00:00:37,099 So, it's, you know, so, though absolutely I believe in attribution 11 00:00:37,259 --> 00:00:42,359 and what, trying to understand that, in most cases, just make sure you 12 00:00:42,359 --> 00:00:43,689 understand the fundamental first. 13 00:00:48,821 --> 00:00:52,771 Welcome to the e commerce podcast with me, your host, Matt Edmundson. 14 00:00:52,791 --> 00:00:57,861 Now the e commerce podcast is a show all about helping you to deliver e commerce. 15 00:00:57,991 --> 00:00:58,621 Wow. 16 00:00:58,841 --> 00:01:03,831 And to help us do just that today, I am chatting with Oliver Spark 17 00:01:03,851 --> 00:01:08,001 from Sweet Analytics about the five levers of growth, harnessing 18 00:01:08,041 --> 00:01:11,141 customer data for e commerce success. 19 00:01:11,171 --> 00:01:15,451 Now, before Oliver and I dive into our conversation, which I. 20 00:01:15,661 --> 00:01:16,641 Just a little heads up. 21 00:01:16,701 --> 00:01:19,641 I know it's going to be good just based on the preamble that we've just had. 22 00:01:20,141 --> 00:01:25,091 Uh, let me share some of our podcast picks, uh, previous episodes that 23 00:01:25,091 --> 00:01:26,721 I think you're going to enjoy. 24 00:01:27,161 --> 00:01:30,611 The first one, Discover the Human Elements Behind the Numbers 25 00:01:30,611 --> 00:01:32,681 with Monica Sharma Panetka. 26 00:01:33,631 --> 00:01:36,171 Definitely check out that episode for a reason which will become 27 00:01:36,191 --> 00:01:37,591 obvious in just a few seconds. 28 00:01:37,951 --> 00:01:42,281 And also check out Why Web Analytics are Key to Growth with Michael Lobe. 29 00:01:42,281 --> 00:01:43,331 And that was another great episode. 30 00:01:43,331 --> 00:01:46,141 Actually, uh, you can access our podcast picks and our entire 31 00:01:46,141 --> 00:01:51,181 podcast to archive for free on our website at e commerce podcast. 32 00:01:51,471 --> 00:01:56,711 net plus if you're there, sign up to our newsletter because we send you the links 33 00:01:56,711 --> 00:01:58,521 to our podcast picks along with the notes. 34 00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:03,296 Uh, from today's conversation with Oliver, they all get delivered straight 35 00:02:03,316 --> 00:02:07,986 to your inbox totally for free at no cost to you, which is pretty amazing. 36 00:02:07,996 --> 00:02:09,236 So do sign up for that. 37 00:02:09,786 --> 00:02:12,986 Now, are you struggling to grow your e commerce business? 38 00:02:12,986 --> 00:02:16,856 Do you feel like you're constantly spinning your wheels trying to 39 00:02:16,856 --> 00:02:19,276 figure out what to focus on next? 40 00:02:19,536 --> 00:02:21,376 Well, let me tell you, I have. 41 00:02:21,641 --> 00:02:27,041 Been there and I know how frustrating that can be, which is why we love the 42 00:02:27,041 --> 00:02:29,431 fact that e commerce cohort sponsors. 43 00:02:29,751 --> 00:02:35,211 The show e commerce cohort helps companies like yours deliver an exceptional customer 44 00:02:35,261 --> 00:02:38,461 experience online that drives results. 45 00:02:38,491 --> 00:02:43,181 And to help you get started, we're excited to talk about the free resource 46 00:02:43,181 --> 00:02:45,621 put together called e commerce cycles. 47 00:02:45,931 --> 00:02:50,271 It's a mini course, which walks you through a proven framework for building 48 00:02:50,271 --> 00:02:52,931 a successful e commerce business. 49 00:02:53,361 --> 00:02:57,481 I'm going to show you the specific steps we take in our own e commerce 50 00:02:57,481 --> 00:03:01,381 companies so you can see exactly how to put those concepts into 51 00:03:01,381 --> 00:03:03,671 practice in your own business. 52 00:03:03,901 --> 00:03:05,951 And the good news, it's completely free. 53 00:03:05,951 --> 00:03:10,386 You don't even need an email address and you can check it out at Ecommerce cycles. 54 00:03:11,656 --> 00:03:12,016 Com. 55 00:03:12,016 --> 00:03:16,956 So do check out, check out that training, free training at Ecommerce Cycles. 56 00:03:17,206 --> 00:03:20,226 Uh, and you know, it's going to help you deliver e commerce well. 57 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:23,496 So do check it out, uh, and uh, it's great. 58 00:03:23,506 --> 00:03:24,946 It's great actually that you can do that. 59 00:03:24,946 --> 00:03:25,316 We love it. 60 00:03:25,316 --> 00:03:28,646 We took, I was in the States recently, took some people through Ecommerce Cycles. 61 00:03:29,166 --> 00:03:30,946 Business for turning over about 10 million a year. 62 00:03:31,131 --> 00:03:31,591 Brilliant. 63 00:03:31,641 --> 00:03:32,811 We had a great time doing it. 64 00:03:32,811 --> 00:03:33,771 So it does work. 65 00:03:33,811 --> 00:03:40,321 Now, let me just go back and give a huge shout out to Monica, uh, who has 66 00:03:40,321 --> 00:03:42,471 connected Oliver and myself today. 67 00:03:42,471 --> 00:03:44,571 So check out more information about Monica. 68 00:03:44,571 --> 00:03:46,631 If you've not listened to her episode, do check it out as I 69 00:03:46,631 --> 00:03:49,881 mentioned, uh, but you can see more about her at businesswithmonica. 70 00:03:50,541 --> 00:03:51,431 com and Monica. 71 00:03:53,506 --> 00:03:58,536 is actually also going to be in the cohort mastermind sharing her wisdom 72 00:03:58,536 --> 00:04:01,206 and insight, which I can't wait to hear. 73 00:04:01,336 --> 00:04:03,476 So Monica, absolute legend. 74 00:04:03,786 --> 00:04:08,506 Now let's talk about Oliver, the retail whiz who turned tech wonder kid. 75 00:04:08,766 --> 00:04:12,616 His entrepreneurial journey started in the world of linens and lamps. 76 00:04:13,121 --> 00:04:19,581 Where he spearheaded the white company's meteoric rise from a modest 6 million 77 00:04:19,841 --> 00:04:22,141 venture to a whopping 50 million turnover. 78 00:04:22,841 --> 00:04:26,211 But Oliver didn't stop there, swapping cashmere throws for code. 79 00:04:26,381 --> 00:04:30,271 He harnessed his retail savvy to create sweet analytics. 80 00:04:30,531 --> 00:04:32,541 I just love the way that these bios are written. 81 00:04:33,061 --> 00:04:35,011 Now he's on a mission to empower. 82 00:04:35,361 --> 00:04:39,981 SMEs demystifying the world of data and turning it into a powerful tool 83 00:04:39,981 --> 00:04:45,671 for success as the architect behind the platform he wished he'd had as a retailer. 84 00:04:46,031 --> 00:04:50,981 Oliver is your go to guru for converting numbers into victories. 85 00:04:51,301 --> 00:04:54,781 So get ready to dive into his world where data reigns supreme 86 00:04:55,101 --> 00:04:58,221 and every figure tells a story. 87 00:04:58,491 --> 00:05:01,081 Oliver, great to have you on the show, man, how are you doing? 88 00:05:01,821 --> 00:05:05,061 I'm very well, Matt, and if I could have the same script writer as you, I'd be 89 00:05:05,061 --> 00:05:11,251 really happy because they do one hell of a job of, um, of converting, um, someone's 90 00:05:11,471 --> 00:05:13,151 career into, into some great lines. 91 00:05:13,491 --> 00:05:13,861 Yeah. 92 00:05:14,661 --> 00:05:15,821 I'll have to work on that now. 93 00:05:16,771 --> 00:05:17,661 Well, just use that one. 94 00:05:17,866 --> 00:05:19,016 Uh, Oliver, that's totally fine. 95 00:05:19,516 --> 00:05:22,616 Uh, the team at Aurion Media who produce the show, uh, do 96 00:05:22,616 --> 00:05:23,876 a great job with these bios. 97 00:05:23,876 --> 00:05:27,036 And I just, every time we have a guest on the show, it's the one, I just look 98 00:05:27,036 --> 00:05:28,546 forward to reading the guest's bio. 99 00:05:28,906 --> 00:05:32,056 I don't actually read it before we do the recording because 100 00:05:32,056 --> 00:05:33,446 I like the surprise of it. 101 00:05:33,806 --> 00:05:36,876 Uh, and I just, they do such a great job with that. 102 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:38,576 So, you know, well done, well done. 103 00:05:38,876 --> 00:05:42,376 So Oliver, before we hit the record button, uh, you told me that you 104 00:05:42,376 --> 00:05:45,686 were, you were dialing in from the sunny climates of, of Spain. 105 00:05:46,996 --> 00:05:47,476 I am. 106 00:05:47,566 --> 00:05:49,036 I'm sitting in Valencia. 107 00:05:49,346 --> 00:05:53,156 My CTO for Sweet Analytics lives here in Valencia and myself 108 00:05:53,156 --> 00:05:54,716 and my COO have come over here. 109 00:05:54,996 --> 00:05:58,376 So, um, I hope you're sitting somewhere rainy, but having left England this 110 00:05:58,376 --> 00:06:02,306 morning, you know, I know, I know it's not for once that that's the case. 111 00:06:02,316 --> 00:06:06,306 So the contrast isn't as good as I'd like it to be, but it's certainly 112 00:06:06,326 --> 00:06:08,946 nice to be, you know, like always, it's nice to get to go with the team. 113 00:06:09,266 --> 00:06:10,796 We work in a very virtual way. 114 00:06:10,796 --> 00:06:12,466 I've developed a team in Krakow. 115 00:06:12,836 --> 00:06:13,856 I have a team in England. 116 00:06:14,621 --> 00:06:18,871 Miguel lives here in Spain, so it's always good to get together anyhow. 117 00:06:19,881 --> 00:06:23,621 Yeah, Valencia's not a bad place to get together with people, is it really? 118 00:06:23,621 --> 00:06:26,281 It's uh, it seems like, you know, it's not a hard job. 119 00:06:28,781 --> 00:06:31,651 Problem, as we all know, anybody who goes away, once you say you're going 120 00:06:31,651 --> 00:06:34,371 abroad, people assume that you're playing golf and doing nothing else. 121 00:06:34,372 --> 00:06:35,111 And not like that. 122 00:06:35,111 --> 00:06:35,951 And you go, what am I doing? 123 00:06:35,951 --> 00:06:36,836 First thing I'm doing, I'm just. 124 00:06:37,776 --> 00:06:39,036 I'm doing a podcast with you, Matt. 125 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:43,756 I mean, I'm out of the restaurant, I'm not on the beach, so maybe, 126 00:06:43,806 --> 00:06:45,636 maybe some work gets done sometimes. 127 00:06:46,776 --> 00:06:47,016 Maybe. 128 00:06:48,476 --> 00:06:50,956 I've just come back, I was saying to you, I've just come back from 129 00:06:50,956 --> 00:06:55,076 a three week trip, um, in the States where I was at Sub Summit. 130 00:06:55,681 --> 00:06:59,341 Um, and if you're a regular to the show, you know, we've had, uh, Chris George 131 00:06:59,341 --> 00:07:00,741 on the show talking about subsummit. 132 00:07:00,741 --> 00:07:02,491 We had a great time over there. 133 00:07:02,851 --> 00:07:03,981 We recorded some podcasts. 134 00:07:04,001 --> 00:07:05,001 We've got some great guests coming. 135 00:07:05,021 --> 00:07:05,751 All of that's coming. 136 00:07:05,801 --> 00:07:09,591 Anyway, the reason I'm telling you all of this, uh, Oliver, is um, 137 00:07:09,871 --> 00:07:12,651 my, when someone asked my daughter, why am I going to the States? 138 00:07:12,661 --> 00:07:16,396 She was like because of Uh, and if you're not watching the video, 139 00:07:16,396 --> 00:07:19,396 I'm doing that sort of funny, uh, inverted commas with my fingers. 140 00:07:19,846 --> 00:07:21,656 Uh, and that's just what she kept doing. 141 00:07:21,656 --> 00:07:22,396 It's work, dad. 142 00:07:22,396 --> 00:07:23,266 You're going for work, aren't you? 143 00:07:23,266 --> 00:07:26,756 And actually it was really, you know, you're with people 24 seven. 144 00:07:26,756 --> 00:07:27,686 It is a bit of work. 145 00:07:28,186 --> 00:07:31,866 Um, to be fair, I did, I did manage to head to the beach for a, for a day or two. 146 00:07:31,866 --> 00:07:33,256 So it wasn't, it wasn't all bad. 147 00:07:34,316 --> 00:07:36,576 I'll ring you up in a couple of days and we'll see who's got a better tan. 148 00:07:41,096 --> 00:07:41,556 Absolutely. 149 00:07:41,776 --> 00:07:43,696 I tell you what, it's not going to be me. 150 00:07:43,696 --> 00:07:47,606 I have one of those skin types that just goes pink as soon as the sun comes out. 151 00:07:47,606 --> 00:07:48,666 I just don't tan. 152 00:07:49,206 --> 00:07:50,716 Uh, but you know, it is what it is. 153 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:53,406 Uh, we all have our burdens to bear in life, don't we? 154 00:07:53,926 --> 00:07:57,736 So Oliver, let's talk about, um, your career a little bit here. 155 00:07:57,736 --> 00:08:00,836 So you said, uh, we read in the bio that you were involved in the white 156 00:08:00,836 --> 00:08:06,256 company, which is for those of the folks outside of the UK, um, that might 157 00:08:06,256 --> 00:08:07,386 not know what the white company is. 158 00:08:07,386 --> 00:08:07,966 Just explain. 159 00:08:09,111 --> 00:08:09,361 Yeah. 160 00:08:09,361 --> 00:08:13,081 So the white company, I think, you know, it's, uh, it's now in the U S so hopefully 161 00:08:13,081 --> 00:08:17,121 if you've got people living in the U S, uh, listening to this, um, it's, I think 162 00:08:17,121 --> 00:08:21,321 a really good story, um, in terms of it, you know, the journey that we went on 163 00:08:21,321 --> 00:08:23,201 is the classic multi channel journey. 164 00:08:23,501 --> 00:08:26,111 Uh, I took over the white company when it was a mail order business, 165 00:08:26,421 --> 00:08:30,201 you know, we were way back in the time when Google ads didn't exist. 166 00:08:30,211 --> 00:08:32,031 So we did a really early website. 167 00:08:32,031 --> 00:08:35,761 We were really early into, into, uh, putting it online and then. 168 00:08:36,011 --> 00:08:40,261 We moved on and we, um, uh, started stores as well. 169 00:08:40,641 --> 00:08:44,321 So, you know, I always think of, you know, how do you grow a business? 170 00:08:44,631 --> 00:08:48,001 You know, what I learned when I was at the White Company was, you know, there are 171 00:08:48,081 --> 00:08:53,421 various levers that you can pull, and it's really important to have a grasp of them. 172 00:08:53,661 --> 00:08:59,201 And for you, you know, for your American, um, uh, listeners, all my learning 173 00:08:59,271 --> 00:09:00,291 actually came from William Sonoma. 174 00:09:01,316 --> 00:09:05,006 Um, and you know, as I explained there, we, I got to this problem where 175 00:09:05,006 --> 00:09:08,336 I didn't know how to grow and then fortunately some guy from from Williams 176 00:09:08,336 --> 00:09:12,586 Sonoma came over to the UK and told us all about multi channel and that 177 00:09:12,626 --> 00:09:16,406 unlocked a whole world of possibility for, for me and the white company. 178 00:09:16,446 --> 00:09:19,446 We were really early adopters of that, of that whole model. 179 00:09:19,716 --> 00:09:22,246 Um, but you know, it's, it's moved forward, we're in a 180 00:09:22,266 --> 00:09:23,766 digital age of multichannel now. 181 00:09:23,766 --> 00:09:27,336 So, you know, there's, there's variants from what it was, but the 182 00:09:27,336 --> 00:09:29,436 same principle, we've all got targets. 183 00:09:29,436 --> 00:09:32,136 You all want to grow and you, you, you've got to work out 184 00:09:32,136 --> 00:09:33,216 what's the best way of doing that. 185 00:09:34,016 --> 00:09:34,956 Yeah, absolutely. 186 00:09:35,016 --> 00:09:35,586 Absolutely. 187 00:09:35,876 --> 00:09:40,566 Well, I mean, you've, you've touched on the, um, five levers of growth 188 00:09:40,806 --> 00:09:43,176 and, uh, this in the show title. 189 00:09:43,186 --> 00:09:46,136 So let's start there and see where the conversation goes. 190 00:09:46,156 --> 00:09:48,736 Just tell us what those five levers are. 191 00:09:48,736 --> 00:09:48,786 Okay. 192 00:09:49,596 --> 00:09:51,216 Yeah, I love a conversation with you. 193 00:09:51,216 --> 00:09:53,336 I've got five points and then we'll get halfway around the thing. 194 00:09:53,336 --> 00:09:54,446 I won't remember what they are, Matt. 195 00:09:54,447 --> 00:09:55,876 I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll cheer you up. 196 00:09:56,166 --> 00:09:57,036 I have got five. 197 00:09:57,336 --> 00:10:00,926 So first of all, it's all about customer data and absolutely the fundamental. 198 00:10:01,186 --> 00:10:04,296 If you don't understand your customer data, in my view, we haven't got a start. 199 00:10:04,706 --> 00:10:07,706 Then we talk about product, you know, changing product and how 200 00:10:07,706 --> 00:10:09,566 you define your product strategy. 201 00:10:10,151 --> 00:10:13,291 You've then got channel, which is really important than that. 202 00:10:13,551 --> 00:10:15,731 You know, I mentioned the multi channel model, the old fashioned 203 00:10:15,741 --> 00:10:20,061 multi channel model, but the new multi channel model is digital first. 204 00:10:20,271 --> 00:10:23,971 It's different marketing channels, but it's market, it's marketplaces as well. 205 00:10:24,001 --> 00:10:29,241 So, you know, the world is very complex and very broad and all fits under channel. 206 00:10:29,466 --> 00:10:33,476 Uh, in, in my, in my model, and then you've got international, you 207 00:10:33,476 --> 00:10:35,456 know, there are lots of brands. 208 00:10:35,456 --> 00:10:37,606 We, at Sweet, we work with over a hundred brands. 209 00:10:38,026 --> 00:10:42,506 Um, you know, we're seeing some enormous successes, uh, across internationally. 210 00:10:42,866 --> 00:10:46,636 And, you know, as I perhaps sort of bring this back to a framework in a moment, 211 00:10:46,886 --> 00:10:49,776 you know, you've got to have different things that you can do to change the 212 00:10:49,776 --> 00:10:55,116 shape of the, of what, where you're going and you know, particularly as things 213 00:10:55,116 --> 00:10:59,266 become, you know, globally, you've got lots of other ways now of, of, of, of, 214 00:10:59,266 --> 00:11:01,796 of addressing, um, international markets. 215 00:11:01,806 --> 00:11:04,446 So international is the fourth lever of growth. 216 00:11:05,156 --> 00:11:11,036 And then the fifth for me is always about brand and in brand, I sort of, I cheat 217 00:11:11,046 --> 00:11:15,856 a bit because I put site metrics into it as well, because ultimately, you know, 218 00:11:16,036 --> 00:11:19,986 you, for me, the brand, and for most people, that's a manifestation of website, 219 00:11:20,346 --> 00:11:23,896 but, you know, there's all the soft bits around what it looks and feels like, 220 00:11:24,156 --> 00:11:25,856 but, you know, I'm really all around. 221 00:11:26,176 --> 00:11:28,516 You know, numbers and what numbers you have to move. 222 00:11:28,566 --> 00:11:32,896 So, you know, whole site, site funnel is a crucial part of it. 223 00:11:32,946 --> 00:11:36,856 And that whole brand experience that can be measured in that way 224 00:11:37,056 --> 00:11:38,496 is what I put in that fifth lever. 225 00:11:39,636 --> 00:11:45,436 So you got these, uh, five levers from the chap that came over from the States whilst 226 00:11:45,436 --> 00:11:46,766 you were heading up the white company. 227 00:11:47,571 --> 00:11:50,181 Now I got what I got from this chap in the States. 228 00:11:50,191 --> 00:11:54,121 So my, my, my experience was I took over the white company. 229 00:11:54,121 --> 00:11:58,611 I was MD for, uh, and I had a very simple incentive target, which was really 230 00:11:58,611 --> 00:12:03,281 good discipline, which was, I had to grow it at 40% a year for five years. 231 00:12:03,546 --> 00:12:03,836 Yeah. 232 00:12:04,226 --> 00:12:09,146 And my remuneration was I got rewarded for, for inequity, for, for growth. 233 00:12:09,476 --> 00:12:13,076 I got rewarded in, in, in pound notes for, for, for delivering profit. 234 00:12:13,636 --> 00:12:16,796 And that, you know, those two, understanding how those two work 235 00:12:16,826 --> 00:12:19,336 together are really, really important. 236 00:12:19,726 --> 00:12:22,466 And so even I could do a spreadsheet that went 1. 237 00:12:22,536 --> 00:12:24,076 4 times, 5 times. 238 00:12:24,446 --> 00:12:26,726 And, you know, I knew that, you know, that meant I had to get to 239 00:12:26,726 --> 00:12:28,696 30 odd million in 5 years time. 240 00:12:29,136 --> 00:12:33,626 And it was only really when I began to understand Customer metrics. 241 00:12:33,746 --> 00:12:36,976 Did I understand, did I have a clue of how I was going to do it? 242 00:12:37,356 --> 00:12:42,426 And where the William Sonoma guy came and helped me was at that point, I'd hit, you 243 00:12:42,426 --> 00:12:44,076 know, you talked about spinning wheels. 244 00:12:44,196 --> 00:12:45,726 I'd hit the spinning wheels point. 245 00:12:45,756 --> 00:12:46,566 I didn't know. 246 00:12:47,026 --> 00:12:50,326 I couldn't recruit any more customers at my required cost per acquisition. 247 00:12:50,746 --> 00:12:53,516 I didn't, you know, didn't know what to quite do. 248 00:12:53,881 --> 00:12:56,641 And we were pulling the product lever, and the product lever, 249 00:12:56,661 --> 00:13:00,721 unfortunately, isn't instantaneous, like most levers, not instantaneous. 250 00:13:01,091 --> 00:13:04,871 Um, but he effectively came and taught us that, actually, if you offered a 251 00:13:04,901 --> 00:13:07,431 customer more channels, they spent more. 252 00:13:08,176 --> 00:13:11,956 So his example was they spend 180 dollars if they've got one channel, they spend 253 00:13:11,956 --> 00:13:16,496 240 if they've got two channels, and they spend 360 if they've got three channels. 254 00:13:16,966 --> 00:13:21,706 And for me, that was a hallelujah moment, because, well, okay, now I can 255 00:13:21,706 --> 00:13:23,236 get more money out of our customers. 256 00:13:23,446 --> 00:13:26,666 If I'm struggling to recruit the number of customers I need, 257 00:13:26,926 --> 00:13:28,446 let's get more money out of them. 258 00:13:28,447 --> 00:13:32,206 And so that was the real, that was the real takeout from that. 259 00:13:32,636 --> 00:13:35,996 Um, and then the other bit that really supported my sort of whole understanding 260 00:13:35,996 --> 00:13:40,076 of loan to growth, was that there's a, you know, a top consultant in the, in 261 00:13:40,076 --> 00:13:41,786 the, in the states called Jim Fulton. 262 00:13:42,176 --> 00:13:46,516 Um, and Jim was the person who, you know, explained to me the model of 263 00:13:46,516 --> 00:13:50,856 how you put people in the top of a DTC business and they flow down through 264 00:13:51,196 --> 00:13:56,016 over years in order to, to understand where you get to in five years time. 265 00:13:56,016 --> 00:13:56,246 So. 266 00:13:56,761 --> 00:13:57,641 And it's the same principles. 267 00:13:57,671 --> 00:14:00,401 If you want to, you know, if you're going from half a million to a million 268 00:14:00,401 --> 00:14:02,991 or whether you're going from five million to 10 million or any other 269 00:14:02,991 --> 00:14:07,681 number, the really fundamental first thing for me is you have to understand 270 00:14:08,061 --> 00:14:09,641 how those customer metrics work. 271 00:14:10,771 --> 00:14:12,741 So let's dig into that then. 272 00:14:12,741 --> 00:14:15,491 So the first point, your first lever is customer data. 273 00:14:15,491 --> 00:14:19,791 Why is, I think you made the comment that if you don't have 274 00:14:19,791 --> 00:14:22,021 that, if you don't understand that, you don't really have a business. 275 00:14:23,566 --> 00:14:26,066 Why are you so, so strong on that? 276 00:14:26,436 --> 00:14:30,356 It's not that I disagree, by the way, I'm just, I'm just, uh, I'm really curious 277 00:14:30,356 --> 00:14:31,506 to know your thought pattern here. 278 00:14:32,336 --> 00:14:35,666 Yeah, look, the really key thing is, so I ask, you know, I speak to 279 00:14:35,666 --> 00:14:38,956 lots of people like you do, Matt, in your, in your various hats, you 280 00:14:38,956 --> 00:14:41,696 know, and my principal thing is I ask people where they want to go. 281 00:14:42,056 --> 00:14:45,326 So, you know, do you want to achieve a million next year or wherever it is? 282 00:14:45,806 --> 00:14:49,156 And then the next question I ask them is, do you know how many new customers 283 00:14:49,546 --> 00:14:51,876 you need in order to achieve that goal? 284 00:14:52,721 --> 00:14:56,631 And I reckon in about 80% of my answers, I get a no to that. 285 00:14:57,101 --> 00:15:00,581 And if you don't, because the dynamics of acquisition are so different 286 00:15:00,601 --> 00:15:04,571 from retention and they differ for every business, yeah, unless you 287 00:15:04,581 --> 00:15:08,401 know how many new customers you need to grow and you know what it 288 00:15:08,401 --> 00:15:09,921 costs to acquire a new customer. 289 00:15:11,156 --> 00:15:15,386 You haven't got Scooby's chance of achieving what you need to in success if 290 00:15:15,386 --> 00:15:17,126 you don't know those, those two numbers. 291 00:15:17,496 --> 00:15:21,346 So, and if you don't know those two numbers, you know, for me 292 00:15:21,346 --> 00:15:24,576 that's a, you know, a red flag that a business is less likely to 293 00:15:24,576 --> 00:15:25,766 achieve what it wants to achieve. 294 00:15:26,201 --> 00:15:30,261 And then from my own experience, you know, it's only by really understanding that, 295 00:15:30,581 --> 00:15:34,361 that I was then able to understand how, you know, if I could require a customer in 296 00:15:34,361 --> 00:15:38,081 year one, well, that customer, you know, the probability of that customer then 297 00:15:38,121 --> 00:15:40,401 still delivering me value in year three. 298 00:15:40,936 --> 00:15:44,476 Is, is, you know, it's perfectly understandable from history or even just 299 00:15:44,486 --> 00:15:48,546 modeling it and, and it's, you know, you can't leave, you know, you can't go from, 300 00:15:48,576 --> 00:15:50,316 you know, I went from six to 50 million. 301 00:15:50,656 --> 00:15:53,676 You can't just get 10 million extra sales in the last year 302 00:15:53,676 --> 00:15:55,426 by going, Oh, I'm on day one. 303 00:15:55,426 --> 00:15:56,496 I need to do something. 304 00:15:56,526 --> 00:15:58,226 You've got to build that model. 305 00:15:58,546 --> 00:16:02,856 So you've got that base of customers, um, that effectively allows you to 306 00:16:02,856 --> 00:16:04,376 achieve what, what you're wanting to do. 307 00:16:04,386 --> 00:16:08,636 So just for me, it's, it's, you know, you, for anybody 308 00:16:08,636 --> 00:16:09,926 running an e commerce business. 309 00:16:10,411 --> 00:16:16,381 If you do not know how to translate that statement of I want to grow at 50% or I 310 00:16:16,381 --> 00:16:20,361 want to grow from 1 million to 5 million into demonstrable customer metrics, 311 00:16:20,431 --> 00:16:22,361 your chances of success are very slim. 312 00:16:23,951 --> 00:16:28,241 It's a really powerful statement, Oliver, because I'm just thinking 313 00:16:28,621 --> 00:16:33,321 throughout all the years I've been doing this, um, I've sat under a lot of 314 00:16:33,321 --> 00:16:35,501 people who have asked, where are you? 315 00:16:35,501 --> 00:16:36,451 Where do you want to be? 316 00:16:36,991 --> 00:16:37,521 Um. 317 00:16:37,596 --> 00:16:43,476 Um, but I don't recall anyone ever then following up that question 318 00:16:43,476 --> 00:16:46,576 with, and how many new customers is it going to take to get there and 319 00:16:46,576 --> 00:16:47,956 what's your cost of acquisition? 320 00:16:48,506 --> 00:16:51,556 I've, I, we talk a lot about cost of acquisition, um, both 321 00:16:51,556 --> 00:16:52,786 in cohort and on the podcast. 322 00:16:52,786 --> 00:16:56,886 So, um, the, the, the CPA is quite an interesting thing, but understanding, 323 00:16:57,536 --> 00:17:01,336 um, how many new customers it's going to take to reach your turnover figure. 324 00:17:03,156 --> 00:17:07,286 I don't know of many people that have asked that question, um, 325 00:17:07,296 --> 00:17:09,006 which I find quite insightful. 326 00:17:09,526 --> 00:17:14,146 Um, how did you, how, where did that revelation come from? 327 00:17:14,951 --> 00:17:17,161 So that came from me from my own experience. 328 00:17:17,171 --> 00:17:20,821 So I, I, you know, as I said, I had this simple spreadsheet that 1. 329 00:17:20,871 --> 00:17:22,491 4 times version. 330 00:17:22,931 --> 00:17:27,301 And then I, you know, I learned that, you know, in all of my 331 00:17:27,661 --> 00:17:31,921 second year, I needed 75, 000 new customers to, to, to get to it. 332 00:17:32,411 --> 00:17:36,861 And then I knew that the next year I needed 125, 000 new customers. 333 00:17:37,181 --> 00:17:41,521 And I did in the old world, I did a massive extrapolation of what I'd 334 00:17:41,551 --> 00:17:46,571 done on cold lists of direct mail, and I lost 250 grand in a, in a season. 335 00:17:47,031 --> 00:17:50,741 And, you know, that's painful when your bonus is attached to profitability. 336 00:17:51,561 --> 00:17:55,221 But what I learned out of that is that actually I could afford to 337 00:17:55,231 --> 00:18:00,141 lose money because As the lifetime value of those customers unwound. 338 00:18:00,381 --> 00:18:01,261 Hallelujah. 339 00:18:01,261 --> 00:18:03,141 In year two, that came good. 340 00:18:03,471 --> 00:18:06,641 And I then understood how I could start achieving that next bit of 341 00:18:06,641 --> 00:18:09,041 target because I had a bigger base. 342 00:18:09,131 --> 00:18:13,611 And it's that whole circular interplay of when do you bring customers in? 343 00:18:13,621 --> 00:18:14,831 How long do they last? 344 00:18:15,231 --> 00:18:18,091 And, and it's different, you know, it's different metrics for every business. 345 00:18:18,091 --> 00:18:21,351 You know, if you're, if you're a jewelry business, for instance, you're probably, 346 00:18:21,641 --> 00:18:24,231 you know, 90% reliant on new customers. 347 00:18:24,231 --> 00:18:29,111 You know, a jewelry business recruits a customer, you know, in year one, probably 348 00:18:29,111 --> 00:18:30,911 only 10% of them come back in year two. 349 00:18:31,011 --> 00:18:33,501 If you're a fashion business, you know, and it's good fashion business, 350 00:18:33,551 --> 00:18:34,861 they've probably got 40% of people. 351 00:18:34,931 --> 00:18:38,511 And, and unless you understand, you know, you understand. 352 00:18:38,866 --> 00:18:42,836 What the retention rate is, what the average order value is, then, you know, 353 00:18:42,836 --> 00:18:46,776 and how many orders per customer you may get in that time period, you know, those 354 00:18:46,786 --> 00:18:50,066 are what you, you know, I'm sorry, get a bit granular into, into metrics, but 355 00:18:50,296 --> 00:18:54,466 you really need to understand those, but the simple, simple question is, Matt, 356 00:18:54,536 --> 00:18:58,066 as you say, is, do you know how many new customers do you need to acquire? 357 00:18:59,846 --> 00:19:01,046 That's really good stuff. 358 00:19:01,196 --> 00:19:03,096 And then do you break that down further, Oliver? 359 00:19:03,106 --> 00:19:05,896 Do you say, do you look at where your new customers come from? 360 00:19:05,896 --> 00:19:07,896 So I'm just very simply thinking. 361 00:19:08,276 --> 00:19:13,236 Well, currently my 30% of my customers come from Facebook. 362 00:19:13,666 --> 00:19:19,996 20% of Facebook ads, 20% come from Instagram ads, 50% 363 00:19:20,046 --> 00:19:21,656 come from Google shopping. 364 00:19:21,656 --> 00:19:23,176 So I know it's a very crude breakdown. 365 00:19:23,176 --> 00:19:26,096 I don't actually know what the data is, but, um, would you 366 00:19:26,106 --> 00:19:27,566 break it down then by channel? 367 00:19:27,576 --> 00:19:31,896 So if I needed a thousand new customers, that means on these current percentages, 368 00:19:31,896 --> 00:19:34,876 I need to go and get another 300 from Facebook, another 200 from 369 00:19:34,876 --> 00:19:36,696 Instagram, and another 500 from Google. 370 00:19:37,566 --> 00:19:39,036 Yeah, yes, is the answer. 371 00:19:39,036 --> 00:19:42,366 But I think there's a step before that, which for most businesses and 372 00:19:42,366 --> 00:19:46,856 particularly for early, earlier stage businesses, Matt, is what you need to 373 00:19:46,856 --> 00:19:50,586 know is you need to understand what you can afford to pay for a customer. 374 00:19:50,836 --> 00:19:51,276 Yeah. 375 00:19:51,626 --> 00:19:53,856 And that's what you can afford to pay, not based on average order 376 00:19:53,856 --> 00:19:57,576 value, but on on whatever view on lifetime value that you need to have. 377 00:19:58,106 --> 00:20:01,496 Because going back to that, that insight I was sort of talking about from my own 378 00:20:01,536 --> 00:20:05,176 white company experience, I learned that I could lose money on the first order. 379 00:20:05,186 --> 00:20:05,206 Yeah. 380 00:20:05,901 --> 00:20:11,581 But it created profit down the line and what's really important for any business. 381 00:20:11,601 --> 00:20:14,031 We have a thing called a margin calculator in suite. 382 00:20:14,241 --> 00:20:19,781 Yeah, you need to set the metrics up before you get into channel. 383 00:20:19,861 --> 00:20:24,791 Yeah, but just effectively, can you afford 27 pounds or 50 or what is it? 384 00:20:24,811 --> 00:20:26,361 Can you afford that? 385 00:20:26,451 --> 00:20:30,381 You know, after delivery costs, after all those things, after returns, 386 00:20:30,741 --> 00:20:32,381 what can you afford to spend? 387 00:20:32,641 --> 00:20:33,261 Because. 388 00:20:33,621 --> 00:20:36,651 You know, ultimately as a retailer, there are, you know, there are 389 00:20:36,651 --> 00:20:40,221 so many numbers in marketing that we all have to deal with. 390 00:20:40,261 --> 00:20:42,951 So many platforms that tell you what the heart of the numbers. 391 00:20:43,221 --> 00:20:46,361 The only thing you really know is, you know, how many sales you've got, 392 00:20:46,631 --> 00:20:47,961 you know, how much money you've spent. 393 00:20:48,941 --> 00:20:50,351 Yeah, they're the hard numbers. 394 00:20:50,561 --> 00:20:50,871 Yeah. 395 00:20:51,221 --> 00:20:54,981 And so before I get into, you know, really get into the nitty gritty 396 00:20:54,981 --> 00:20:58,041 of which channel and some of the conversation about attribution. 397 00:20:58,571 --> 00:21:02,051 You really just have to know your target, your target, roas as we call 398 00:21:02,071 --> 00:21:07,021 it, yeah, which is the hard cash number of, you know, what sales to come from 399 00:21:07,021 --> 00:21:10,781 first customers, first time customers, and how much have you spent every day. 400 00:21:10,881 --> 00:21:14,731 And that's every day, you know, we're, you know, retailers, we're traders, you, 401 00:21:14,801 --> 00:21:19,571 in my opinion, you have to know that number every single day of your training. 402 00:21:20,061 --> 00:21:23,191 And then if you're massively above, you've got great opportunity to go and maybe 403 00:21:23,191 --> 00:21:24,841 spend some more money and go faster. 404 00:21:25,241 --> 00:21:28,371 Or, you know, if you're below, then you really need to be looking at 405 00:21:28,381 --> 00:21:29,731 how your channels are performing. 406 00:21:30,171 --> 00:21:35,671 So, it's, you know, so, though absolutely I believe in attribution 407 00:21:35,831 --> 00:21:40,931 and what, trying to understand that, in most cases, just make sure you 408 00:21:40,931 --> 00:21:42,261 understand the fundamental first. 409 00:21:42,861 --> 00:21:43,201 Yeah. 410 00:21:43,811 --> 00:21:44,951 No, that's a very good point. 411 00:21:45,071 --> 00:21:46,061 That is a very good point. 412 00:21:46,071 --> 00:21:48,641 And it's, it's an, it's an interesting statement you bring up 413 00:21:48,641 --> 00:21:51,681 on attribution, but I want to talk about lifetime value a little bit. 414 00:21:51,681 --> 00:21:55,361 You, you mentioned that, um, one of the things that I've been hearing, in 415 00:21:55,361 --> 00:21:58,731 fact, at subsummit, um, where I was at a few weeks ago, one of the things that 416 00:21:58,731 --> 00:22:03,601 they were talking about a lot there, given the state of, um, Interest rates. 417 00:22:04,101 --> 00:22:07,281 Um, so just, I, I don't know when this show is going to get aired, but 418 00:22:07,511 --> 00:22:13,141 we're now in June, 2023 and interest rates are not great either in the 419 00:22:13,141 --> 00:22:14,791 UK or the U S they're quite high. 420 00:22:15,061 --> 00:22:18,681 So the cost of money is quite X is now expensive. 421 00:22:18,691 --> 00:22:22,011 You know, it's, um, so that doesn't seem to be as much capital 422 00:22:22,011 --> 00:22:23,051 floating around the system. 423 00:22:23,061 --> 00:22:27,541 So what they've noticed is, um, and this is, uh, the chat from 424 00:22:27,541 --> 00:22:28,791 Google was talking about this was. 425 00:22:29,346 --> 00:22:34,166 Actually, there seems to be a pulling back on the, what they call the CAC 426 00:22:34,206 --> 00:22:36,336 to lifetime value ratio, isn't it? 427 00:22:36,376 --> 00:22:39,771 Or the lifetime value to CAC ratio, which was The magical 428 00:22:39,771 --> 00:22:41,001 number I think was three to one. 429 00:22:41,011 --> 00:22:44,821 So, um, for every pound you spent to get a customer, the customer 430 00:22:44,871 --> 00:22:48,471 should give you three pounds or, you know, a dollar, uh, 3 back. 431 00:22:49,171 --> 00:22:53,611 Um, they're saying actually what, one of the things that there was no magic 432 00:22:53,651 --> 00:22:57,891 number that, that, that people can generically work of what you have to 433 00:22:57,892 --> 00:23:00,971 understand is the metrics for your business, because if you're an 80%, 434 00:23:01,051 --> 00:23:02,691 if you're an 80% margin business. 435 00:23:03,081 --> 00:23:06,251 You might be able to exist on a two percent, two times roas. 436 00:23:06,441 --> 00:23:06,851 Yeah. 437 00:23:06,851 --> 00:23:09,071 And if you're, if you're not, you may need a five times roas.. 438 00:23:09,071 --> 00:23:13,741 So just sorry to interrupt you there, but I'm always, you know, I don't really 439 00:23:13,741 --> 00:23:15,801 like single, single metrics sometimes. 440 00:23:17,021 --> 00:23:17,881 So I apologize. 441 00:23:17,921 --> 00:23:21,201 They may, they may have given a broader, but I just don't like sort of getting. 442 00:23:21,791 --> 00:23:24,981 Everyone boxed down into we should leave here with a three to one, 443 00:23:25,101 --> 00:23:26,531 you know, target roas over here. 444 00:23:26,831 --> 00:23:27,901 Yeah, no, no, not at all. 445 00:23:27,901 --> 00:23:30,571 And in fact, one of the things that they were talking about is these ratios 446 00:23:30,571 --> 00:23:33,421 are now moving and they're starting to become much more target specific. 447 00:23:34,101 --> 00:23:37,731 Um, but one of the, one of the interesting things that they were talking about is 448 00:23:37,731 --> 00:23:42,231 because the cost of acquisition of new customers is going up quite considerably. 449 00:23:43,021 --> 00:23:48,461 Um, there has been a massive shift now into retention marketing and engaging. 450 00:23:49,106 --> 00:23:53,786 Um, you're returning customers and also the customers who used to buy 451 00:23:53,786 --> 00:23:57,206 from you, but no longer buy from you, um, seem to be the two popular 452 00:23:57,206 --> 00:23:58,596 things that people are going after. 453 00:23:59,096 --> 00:24:01,886 And I don't know if you've spotted this or if you, if this is a 454 00:24:01,886 --> 00:24:03,076 trend that you've seen as well. 455 00:24:03,966 --> 00:24:04,986 Yeah, it is. 456 00:24:04,996 --> 00:24:08,346 It is a trend and it's something that I'm sort of, I'm slightly against to be 457 00:24:08,346 --> 00:24:12,116 honest, because if you do, if you have a customer forecasting model, yeah, 458 00:24:12,656 --> 00:24:16,426 I can absolutely guarantee you that it's very rare that you can achieve 459 00:24:16,426 --> 00:24:19,006 your goal through retention metrics. 460 00:24:19,096 --> 00:24:21,716 Now, obviously that's not if you're, if you're a vitamin company, 461 00:24:21,716 --> 00:24:26,076 there's monthly, you know, but in most sectors of the industry. 462 00:24:26,416 --> 00:24:26,656 Yeah. 463 00:24:26,896 --> 00:24:29,176 If I gave you a four year model out of our growth model. 464 00:24:29,716 --> 00:24:29,996 Yeah. 465 00:24:30,376 --> 00:24:32,616 And you start cutting down on acquisition. 466 00:24:32,966 --> 00:24:35,796 I can tell you, you're not going to end up where you want to in four years time. 467 00:24:36,256 --> 00:24:41,336 And so I'm not being, of course, everyone, you know, it's harder times. 468 00:24:41,476 --> 00:24:44,456 And of course, everyone needs to focus on their retention. 469 00:24:44,456 --> 00:24:50,536 But in my experience, it's very difficult to fundamentally change the shape of your 470 00:24:50,556 --> 00:24:52,616 business by just focusing on retention. 471 00:24:52,846 --> 00:24:57,176 Or it's fine, as long as you understand what the impact of cutting down on 472 00:24:57,296 --> 00:25:02,386 acquisition is, then Then fine, you, you know, absolutely cut once across 473 00:25:02,726 --> 00:25:07,166 to the right size of time, but, you know, you can't get back to this, you 474 00:25:07,166 --> 00:25:08,456 know, are you going to be successful? 475 00:25:09,266 --> 00:25:13,226 This is a perfectly, this is a perfectly modelable situation. 476 00:25:13,266 --> 00:25:16,776 So if you recruit 70, 000 customers last year and you, you know, you're 477 00:25:16,776 --> 00:25:20,496 going to cut back and recruit 50, 000, that means that next year, 478 00:25:20,716 --> 00:25:22,266 yeah, your pot's going to be smaller. 479 00:25:22,671 --> 00:25:25,751 You know, your overall pot has gone up, but your, your, your 480 00:25:25,781 --> 00:25:27,721 current pot has probably gone down. 481 00:25:27,811 --> 00:25:32,951 And, and I very, very rarely see a business that actually truly, you know, 482 00:25:33,021 --> 00:25:37,881 hits onto the growth curve if it doesn't focus on acquisition as well as retention. 483 00:25:37,911 --> 00:25:41,751 I'm not, I'm not, I'm not trying to, you know, clearly I'm not dishing retention. 484 00:25:42,201 --> 00:25:44,811 Retention is sort of bread and butter day job. 485 00:25:44,971 --> 00:25:45,291 Yeah. 486 00:25:45,601 --> 00:25:48,751 But the fundamentals to move most businesses is about acquisition. 487 00:25:49,621 --> 00:25:54,141 Yeah, I, I like that because when they were as as these concepts and 488 00:25:54,141 --> 00:25:58,951 ideas are coming out about retention marketing, um, it felt like short 489 00:25:58,951 --> 00:26:03,241 term game at the expense of long term growth because you like you say you're, 490 00:26:03,801 --> 00:26:06,801 you're, you're reducing the number of customers today, you're increasing 491 00:26:06,801 --> 00:26:12,271 profits today, possibly, um, but you're, you've got a smaller pool to convert 492 00:26:12,271 --> 00:26:13,731 to returning customers next time. 493 00:26:13,781 --> 00:26:17,506 And, uh, and, and that doesn't, um, Doesn't make sense to me. 494 00:26:18,936 --> 00:26:20,096 Can I just quickly touch on that? 495 00:26:20,356 --> 00:26:23,486 Because, you know, let's say you've got, you know, you manage to get 30% 496 00:26:23,566 --> 00:26:24,946 of your customers come back every year. 497 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:28,746 In my experience, you might manage to increase that to 33%? 498 00:26:29,516 --> 00:26:30,986 And that ought to be your day job. 499 00:26:31,056 --> 00:26:33,116 I mean, you, you know, of course, you know, email, you 500 00:26:33,116 --> 00:26:34,146 should be doing email properly. 501 00:26:34,156 --> 00:26:37,256 You should be doing, you know, your basics of retention properly. 502 00:26:37,596 --> 00:26:41,156 But, you know, I've so often sat and people, people said, okay, we're 503 00:26:41,156 --> 00:26:43,206 going to really go into retention. 504 00:26:43,586 --> 00:26:46,376 And I can tell you from evidence that probably they might move their, 505 00:26:46,436 --> 00:26:47,666 their retention numbers by 10%. 506 00:26:48,556 --> 00:26:48,856 Yeah. 507 00:26:49,016 --> 00:26:52,256 You model that through, and I can assure you growth just goes off 508 00:26:52,256 --> 00:26:53,026 cliff if they stop acquisition. 509 00:26:54,086 --> 00:26:54,436 Yeah. 510 00:26:54,646 --> 00:26:56,426 No, I, I, I totally agree. 511 00:26:57,026 --> 00:26:59,386 Well, Oliver, excuse me. 512 00:26:59,506 --> 00:27:01,046 I'm disappointed in that. 513 00:27:01,046 --> 00:27:03,546 I'm sure that's not going to make very interesting listening. 514 00:27:04,296 --> 00:27:04,996 No, no, sorry. 515 00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:09,506 It's, um, I'm just looking down at my notes and we've covered point one, 516 00:27:09,956 --> 00:27:11,796 um, of your five levers for growth. 517 00:27:12,196 --> 00:27:14,346 So what I want to do is jump forward a little bit, because 518 00:27:14,346 --> 00:27:15,916 you keep using the word channel. 519 00:27:15,926 --> 00:27:18,046 So let's go to lever number three, which is channels. 520 00:27:18,236 --> 00:27:18,896 Um, yeah. 521 00:27:19,926 --> 00:27:24,046 And this was your product quickly just so because product for me 522 00:27:24,046 --> 00:27:28,576 is really important or can I just that I'm now overstepping my mark. 523 00:27:29,126 --> 00:27:30,546 No, you you you're the guest. 524 00:27:30,546 --> 00:27:31,216 You can do what you like. 525 00:27:31,216 --> 00:27:32,246 We've only got so much time. 526 00:27:32,246 --> 00:27:34,766 So let's let's go through it. 527 00:27:35,006 --> 00:27:35,546 Let's go through it. 528 00:27:36,406 --> 00:27:40,656 So, because again, it all relates back to, to, to understanding your metrics. 529 00:27:40,666 --> 00:27:44,506 So if I get back to my white company experience, uh, bed linen produces 530 00:27:44,506 --> 00:27:48,676 a really great AOV, but a really bad, really poor return rate. 531 00:27:48,776 --> 00:27:49,066 Yeah. 532 00:27:49,116 --> 00:27:53,566 So, so effectively what I learned was that if I kept on recruiting the same 533 00:27:53,566 --> 00:27:58,526 number of people, yeah, they didn't come back fast enough for me to be able to 534 00:27:58,636 --> 00:28:02,516 achieve my growth target, because if I only stayed with that, I needed far too 535 00:28:02,516 --> 00:28:03,966 many people to come into the top of the. 536 00:28:04,351 --> 00:28:07,741 Funnel all the time, I couldn't do those at the right cost per acquisition. 537 00:28:08,031 --> 00:28:10,561 So that was the learn that I took from my model. 538 00:28:10,931 --> 00:28:15,601 And then the easiest way to change your model, and when I say easier it's in 539 00:28:15,601 --> 00:28:20,881 inverted commas, but is to introduce new product in order to change either 540 00:28:20,941 --> 00:28:24,571 the average order value Or the number of orders per customer you've got. 541 00:28:24,631 --> 00:28:29,321 So in my company, we went gift, we did a baby, we, we, we do all those, 542 00:28:29,421 --> 00:28:31,211 and then ultimately we did clothes. 543 00:28:31,421 --> 00:28:36,941 So, effectively those changed my, my metrics around what I could get, what 544 00:28:36,971 --> 00:28:38,621 value I could get out of each customer. 545 00:28:38,961 --> 00:28:42,851 So, in terms of, you know, going back to the same thing, customer forecast model. 546 00:28:43,416 --> 00:28:46,996 You know, if you can't, you know, if you, you've got a certain set of 547 00:28:47,006 --> 00:28:50,306 numbers, you've got to have a theory about how you're going to move them. 548 00:28:50,376 --> 00:28:54,016 And we thought we could move our number by, by having different 549 00:28:54,176 --> 00:28:56,216 products get people seem to like us. 550 00:28:56,456 --> 00:28:56,736 Yeah. 551 00:28:56,806 --> 00:28:59,496 If you've got permission from the brand to sell, you work 552 00:28:59,496 --> 00:29:00,616 out what you can sell more of. 553 00:29:00,741 --> 00:29:02,391 You know, what else can you sell to them? 554 00:29:02,721 --> 00:29:04,011 We tried garden furniture. 555 00:29:04,071 --> 00:29:05,421 They didn't, that was an absolute disaster. 556 00:29:05,871 --> 00:29:08,241 Um, but, but you know, that we didn't have brand permission. 557 00:29:08,781 --> 00:29:08,931 Yeah. 558 00:29:08,931 --> 00:29:11,901 But, but, but for the things that we did, people understood why we were 559 00:29:11,901 --> 00:29:16,431 trying to do it, and that was driven by us under, I, I understood that I 560 00:29:16,431 --> 00:29:19,821 couldn't recruit more customers, so I needed to get more value outta them. 561 00:29:20,121 --> 00:29:22,101 And that's product strategy in order to drive that. 562 00:29:23,166 --> 00:29:26,686 Yeah, and that makes a lot of sense to me because I was always told, uh, 563 00:29:26,796 --> 00:29:30,536 Oliver, that there's only three things that you can do to grow your business, 564 00:29:30,576 --> 00:29:33,606 increase the number of customers, increase the average order value and 565 00:29:33,606 --> 00:29:36,426 increase the frequency with which those customers purchase from you. 566 00:29:37,326 --> 00:29:42,166 And, um, it's always made sense to me that you work on those three levers. 567 00:29:42,166 --> 00:29:43,216 What are my new customers? 568 00:29:43,226 --> 00:29:46,216 How do I get to increase the basket size on the e commerce website? 569 00:29:46,636 --> 00:29:49,006 And how do I get them to increase the amount of times they buy 570 00:29:49,006 --> 00:29:50,366 from me every year, right? 571 00:29:50,366 --> 00:29:53,536 What's the frequency, which is why whenever I've done e commerce, I've 572 00:29:53,536 --> 00:29:55,856 always been really interested in, in. 573 00:29:57,656 --> 00:30:00,216 Products or websites that have the ability to have an increased 574 00:30:00,256 --> 00:30:01,396 customer frequency order. 575 00:30:02,186 --> 00:30:06,846 Um, and so you sort of, you work on those three things and growing new customers 576 00:30:06,846 --> 00:30:08,276 is not the only thing you can do. 577 00:30:08,706 --> 00:30:12,296 Um, you can work on average order value and so things like product mix become 578 00:30:12,296 --> 00:30:13,526 really important then, don't they? 579 00:30:13,526 --> 00:30:17,756 So, uh, how much they're ordering now and whether they come back sooner all 580 00:30:17,766 --> 00:30:19,236 depends on the products that you have. 581 00:30:20,201 --> 00:30:20,621 Exactly. 582 00:30:20,621 --> 00:30:22,641 Everything comes about, you know, everything really actually 583 00:30:22,641 --> 00:30:23,821 relates to customer and product. 584 00:30:24,041 --> 00:30:27,211 You know, we've got customers who try and sell them stuff and, and, you know, 585 00:30:27,241 --> 00:30:30,691 change, change what you said, you know, if they believe you, you know, sell them. 586 00:30:30,691 --> 00:30:33,631 If you know, if you make it really simple, if you sell sausages, yeah. 587 00:30:33,801 --> 00:30:35,861 Don't just sell one type of sausage, just try them with two types of 588 00:30:35,861 --> 00:30:36,841 sausages and that make you sell more. 589 00:30:37,476 --> 00:30:37,676 Yeah. 590 00:30:37,676 --> 00:30:40,996 And it's the same principle, but we, you know, slightly more broader. 591 00:30:41,356 --> 00:30:43,446 And it's got risk, you know, moving into different product 592 00:30:43,446 --> 00:30:45,616 categories have different risk profiles and things like that. 593 00:30:45,696 --> 00:30:49,916 But, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a key, you to your AAV number, you've got 594 00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:54,176 to move that number and you have to think of something to do, to, to, to do it. 595 00:30:54,721 --> 00:30:56,081 Yeah, totally, totally. 596 00:30:56,501 --> 00:30:56,851 Okay. 597 00:30:56,891 --> 00:30:58,031 Can we move on to channels? 598 00:31:01,931 --> 00:31:03,581 I'm just too keen and eager to get to channels. 599 00:31:04,111 --> 00:31:09,941 So explain what you mean by channels, and I'm really curious especially with your 600 00:31:10,451 --> 00:31:12,761 Your hallelujah moment that you had here. 601 00:31:13,851 --> 00:31:22,091 Yeah, so this is really important for me in terms of So, you know, early, as 602 00:31:22,091 --> 00:31:24,801 you probably know, everyone's seeing this, but I'm, you know, I'm old. 603 00:31:24,971 --> 00:31:28,311 So, you know, I've, I've, I've sort of been a retailer for a long time. 604 00:31:28,311 --> 00:31:31,411 So, you know, I existed in a world where, you know, there weren't Google 605 00:31:31,411 --> 00:31:32,821 ads, there weren't all these things. 606 00:31:32,831 --> 00:31:38,001 So, you know, it really was, was early stage, you know, what, what 607 00:31:38,031 --> 00:31:42,611 really, really matters is that, you know, you have to have a fundamental 608 00:31:42,621 --> 00:31:44,491 belief that the customer wants choice. 609 00:31:44,601 --> 00:31:47,581 And if that choice at the moment is they want to buy from your e commerce 610 00:31:47,581 --> 00:31:48,961 site or they want to buy from Amazon. 611 00:31:49,781 --> 00:31:49,981 Yeah. 612 00:31:50,561 --> 00:31:53,851 If you're going to offer both, yeah, you're going to get more sales. 613 00:31:54,206 --> 00:31:58,576 Yeah, because different customers want different to be served in a different way. 614 00:31:58,776 --> 00:32:03,006 Yeah, that's a more modern example of in the old, what we did, which 615 00:32:03,006 --> 00:32:05,736 was web mail order web shops. 616 00:32:06,376 --> 00:32:08,926 Some people, you know, taking that example, some people like 617 00:32:08,926 --> 00:32:12,086 to buy offline, you know, they want to go into a physical shop. 618 00:32:12,296 --> 00:32:15,766 Some people want to, to the convenience of buying, buying online. 619 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:19,276 And so that's the, the, the theory you just have to believe 620 00:32:19,276 --> 00:32:20,806 in that the more channels you. 621 00:32:20,976 --> 00:32:23,296 offer that are appropriate for your customer, the more 622 00:32:23,306 --> 00:32:24,456 sales you're going to get. 623 00:32:26,216 --> 00:32:30,566 And so if you're only in, you know, if you're an e com site, you know, and 624 00:32:30,576 --> 00:32:34,016 again, all of these need to be evaluated, but you know, maybe you do need to, you 625 00:32:34,016 --> 00:32:36,866 know, your product may or may not be appropriate for Amazon, or maybe there 626 00:32:36,876 --> 00:32:41,566 may be a more appropriate marketplace for your, for your sector, you know, 627 00:32:41,576 --> 00:32:46,356 but, but you do really need to, you know, if, if your aim is to grow, um, You've 628 00:32:46,426 --> 00:32:49,396 always got to answer the question, well, how the hell am I going to do that? 629 00:32:49,736 --> 00:32:52,086 And one of the things you need to think about as well, are there 630 00:32:52,086 --> 00:32:55,186 more channels that my customers would like to buy from me? 631 00:32:56,946 --> 00:33:00,946 And so what are some of the channels that we should definitely be thinking about? 632 00:33:01,836 --> 00:33:02,136 Yeah. 633 00:33:02,496 --> 00:33:08,836 Well, I think, so, so I still think, you know, in a, in an old fashioned world, 634 00:33:08,836 --> 00:33:10,896 I've seen lots of brands do pop ups. 635 00:33:11,326 --> 00:33:15,996 So, you know, if you, if you're giving people the experience in 636 00:33:15,996 --> 00:33:18,526 hand, you know, I'm assuming this is mainly between retail brands. 637 00:33:18,901 --> 00:33:21,501 Pop ups I think are proving to be really popular. 638 00:33:21,911 --> 00:33:25,901 The other point about channel is that channel and marketing 639 00:33:26,151 --> 00:33:28,211 would get ever, ever closer. 640 00:33:28,301 --> 00:33:32,301 So in a way you, you know, in the States in particular, now you can, you can 641 00:33:32,301 --> 00:33:34,971 shop on your Instagram feed directly. 642 00:33:35,481 --> 00:33:36,801 TikTok has TikTok shop. 643 00:33:36,991 --> 00:33:40,171 So all of these channels, so I may be marketing, but I'm also 644 00:33:40,181 --> 00:33:42,081 selling in the, in the same space. 645 00:33:42,311 --> 00:33:45,131 So there's a bit of a mishmash of, of what really is it. 646 00:33:45,131 --> 00:33:48,641 is a channel at the moment of what's a sales channel, what's a marketing channel. 647 00:33:49,131 --> 00:33:53,591 And, you know, assuming that most people are, are doing Google, they're doing 648 00:33:54,721 --> 00:33:58,461 Meta as their, as their advertising channels, a bit like sort of, you know, 649 00:33:58,581 --> 00:34:00,641 should I add Amazon or something else? 650 00:34:00,741 --> 00:34:03,301 You should probably ask yourself, should I be doing TikTok? 651 00:34:03,741 --> 00:34:04,741 Should I be doing Pinterest? 652 00:34:04,741 --> 00:34:09,461 And those are probably the, you know, once you've done assuming Google and 653 00:34:09,461 --> 00:34:12,906 Meta are one and two, those are, those are probably the next ones to go to. 654 00:34:13,796 --> 00:34:17,506 But you shouldn't, you shouldn't just keep, you know, you can keep adding, 655 00:34:17,836 --> 00:34:21,246 you know, marketing channels down the, down the, um, uh, the e com route, 656 00:34:21,516 --> 00:34:25,036 but you should also ask yourself the question of how do your economics work 657 00:34:25,276 --> 00:34:28,756 if I'm going to do, um, uh, Amazon or, or one of these other ones as well. 658 00:34:29,406 --> 00:34:34,296 Yeah, no, it's a super, super obvious, I say super obvious, but it's, it's 659 00:34:34,296 --> 00:34:35,526 a really interesting point, isn't it? 660 00:34:35,586 --> 00:34:38,896 It, um, when you look at things like Instagram and Facebook, 661 00:34:38,946 --> 00:34:41,116 part of me has wondered why they haven't done it already yet. 662 00:34:41,126 --> 00:34:46,296 They've got all of these people who are, who are ready to buy stuff and 663 00:34:46,296 --> 00:34:47,446 they, all they have to do is sell. 664 00:34:47,476 --> 00:34:49,226 Well, we're just going to become Amazon. 665 00:34:49,226 --> 00:34:50,126 We're just going to sell that. 666 00:34:50,246 --> 00:34:54,186 So if you promote stuff on Instagram, well, you can sell it on Instagram. 667 00:34:54,186 --> 00:34:55,066 We're just going to take whatever. 668 00:34:55,286 --> 00:34:57,126 three, 5% commission off the top. 669 00:34:57,726 --> 00:34:58,896 Um, you're going to fulfill it. 670 00:34:58,896 --> 00:35:00,046 They don't have to carry any stock. 671 00:35:00,046 --> 00:35:03,216 It would be a, I would love to talk to someone from Instagram about why 672 00:35:03,216 --> 00:35:06,396 this has taken so long to roll out, because it just intrigues me that 673 00:35:06,396 --> 00:35:07,906 it's taken so long to roll out. 674 00:35:08,406 --> 00:35:09,116 Um, but you're right. 675 00:35:09,116 --> 00:35:13,446 It's just going to be just on that and why they have a lot, you know, why Amazon have 676 00:35:13,446 --> 00:35:17,456 built such a strong position because they own the logistic there and they've now 677 00:35:17,506 --> 00:35:18,846 they're now hiding the marketing there. 678 00:35:19,076 --> 00:35:24,211 So, you know, Amazon is, you know, and for some areas, Well, you know, they're 679 00:35:24,211 --> 00:35:27,941 now effectively going to start offering logistics without you being a seller on 680 00:35:27,941 --> 00:35:30,721 Amazon, you know, that that's the model. 681 00:35:31,571 --> 00:35:33,821 Yeah, yeah, it's really interesting, isn't it? 682 00:35:33,821 --> 00:35:36,351 I mean, it's I mean, it fascinates me how Amazon have done what they've 683 00:35:36,351 --> 00:35:38,331 done, to be fair, and there's a lot we can learn from them. 684 00:35:38,331 --> 00:35:42,701 And you think there's some very clever people working behind the doors of Amazon. 685 00:35:43,221 --> 00:35:43,641 Um. 686 00:35:44,161 --> 00:35:47,381 But yeah, I, I, I, so I get what you're saying about channels. 687 00:35:47,441 --> 00:35:48,061 And so 688 00:35:51,221 --> 00:35:55,041 one of the things I guess that people will struggle with that whole concept 689 00:35:55,041 --> 00:35:58,821 is, um, if I sell on my website, for example, selling on Amazon 690 00:35:58,821 --> 00:36:02,521 feels like, especially if I'm just starting out or if I'm, if I'm a new. 691 00:36:04,191 --> 00:36:09,011 Then trying to sell on Amazon is going to feel like a really big jump. 692 00:36:09,071 --> 00:36:12,961 Like, it's enough work trying to keep up with what I'm doing here. 693 00:36:13,371 --> 00:36:16,001 So then add Amazon into the mix is going to, is going to throw 694 00:36:16,001 --> 00:36:18,601 some extra baggage in that maybe is a little bit too much for them. 695 00:36:19,731 --> 00:36:23,781 Yeah, I think to an age old thing of keeping things simple, you know, 696 00:36:23,931 --> 00:36:26,391 what I, what I think is really important is that you don't, is 697 00:36:26,411 --> 00:36:28,521 that, you know, life is complicated. 698 00:36:28,621 --> 00:36:28,881 Yeah. 699 00:36:29,141 --> 00:36:32,511 What, what really matters is understand what you're doing and understand 700 00:36:32,691 --> 00:36:34,431 how far you can, you can push it. 701 00:36:34,441 --> 00:36:37,511 So for me, the, you know, my penny drop moment was I couldn't recruit 702 00:36:37,551 --> 00:36:40,651 any more customers with the business model we had as we were at the 703 00:36:40,661 --> 00:36:44,341 white company selling bed linen towels and no, no other channels. 704 00:36:45,341 --> 00:36:47,351 I couldn't, you know, I just lost too much money. 705 00:36:48,571 --> 00:36:48,601 Okay. 706 00:36:49,031 --> 00:36:53,771 And it's not easy to unlock what the next winner is, but yeah, I'd really 707 00:36:53,771 --> 00:36:58,141 work each channel to its absolute max before you start adding complexity. 708 00:36:58,141 --> 00:37:01,331 So, you know, I really, if people are in an early stage businesses, don't go 709 00:37:01,331 --> 00:37:05,481 and do Tik TOK and Google and Meta and ad interest you, you won't have a clue 710 00:37:05,481 --> 00:37:09,261 what's going on to be absolutely honest, or what's working, which will then become 711 00:37:09,421 --> 00:37:11,001 if everything's working, hallelujah. 712 00:37:11,296 --> 00:37:14,526 But if you get to the point where it's not working, then you have to start unpicking. 713 00:37:14,736 --> 00:37:17,646 You've got no idea, you have no idea about how you unpick it. 714 00:37:18,036 --> 00:37:23,066 Um, and in the same way, don't do Amazon and e commerce until you really understand 715 00:37:23,066 --> 00:37:25,426 what you're doing in the, in one or other. 716 00:37:25,936 --> 00:37:28,036 Make sure you understand what you're doing before you start 717 00:37:28,046 --> 00:37:29,306 moving through the channel gears. 718 00:37:29,731 --> 00:37:31,251 Yeah, no, fantastic. 719 00:37:31,831 --> 00:37:35,611 Listen, Oliver, I'm aware of time and I'm, I'd love it. 720 00:37:35,701 --> 00:37:39,201 Um, if you could just explain, uh, maybe let's go to a slightly different tech. 721 00:37:39,211 --> 00:37:40,831 What is Sweet Analytics? 722 00:37:40,831 --> 00:37:43,651 You obviously moved from the white company to Sweet Analytics. 723 00:37:44,061 --> 00:37:47,021 Um, what, what is it and what drew you into that? 724 00:37:47,731 --> 00:37:47,951 Yeah. 725 00:37:47,951 --> 00:37:50,951 So, so, I mean, I hope I've sort of communicated with sort of my passion 726 00:37:51,341 --> 00:37:55,571 for, for growing businesses and, you know, doing, you know, I've done various 727 00:37:55,571 --> 00:37:58,851 other things other than the white company and, and I always know, you know, 728 00:37:58,991 --> 00:38:02,081 something I've been good at, successful at, some things have been a disaster, 729 00:38:02,361 --> 00:38:06,781 but I've always known if I didn't know what these kind of numbers that I'm 730 00:38:06,781 --> 00:38:11,301 talking about and these principles, then I just didn't know what I was doing. 731 00:38:11,381 --> 00:38:15,491 And so what we're doing at Sweet Analytics is trying to make sure that for SMEs, 732 00:38:15,806 --> 00:38:17,736 It's really easy and we're self serve. 733 00:38:17,736 --> 00:38:20,596 If you're on Shopify, Wood, BigCommerce, normal kind of platforms, you can 734 00:38:20,596 --> 00:38:24,716 just plug in all our things and we can deliver these metrics to you out 735 00:38:24,716 --> 00:38:29,266 the box that I think really helps you understand what it is that you need to 736 00:38:29,386 --> 00:38:30,996 do in order to make your business grow. 737 00:38:31,346 --> 00:38:33,046 So that's what I wanted to do. 738 00:38:33,046 --> 00:38:37,656 There's all, you know, history of how analytics have moved, you 739 00:38:37,656 --> 00:38:39,076 know, since I began my career. 740 00:38:39,806 --> 00:38:43,726 But, you know, what I really wanted and what I'm passionate about is, is, you 741 00:38:43,726 --> 00:38:48,056 know, being able to deliver to people really simply, um, how you can get to, 742 00:38:48,476 --> 00:38:49,866 you know, what we're talking about here. 743 00:38:50,166 --> 00:38:51,696 Because otherwise it's just hard work. 744 00:38:51,696 --> 00:38:53,346 If it's too hard work, people don't do it. 745 00:38:56,376 --> 00:38:57,626 Yeah, that's the problem, isn't it? 746 00:38:57,626 --> 00:38:58,336 And you're, you're right. 747 00:38:58,336 --> 00:38:59,076 You've got to keep it. 748 00:38:59,076 --> 00:39:02,316 I mean, with everything, you know, we say this to clients, don't we all the 749 00:39:02,326 --> 00:39:05,186 time, you've got to keep your website simple if you want people to buy off it. 750 00:39:05,646 --> 00:39:07,536 Um, and it's got to be the same with everything else. 751 00:39:07,536 --> 00:39:09,686 I mean, the theory stands up everywhere, right? 752 00:39:09,686 --> 00:39:11,386 It just, uh, it just does. 753 00:39:11,846 --> 00:39:14,336 Oliver, listen, if people want to reach out to you, if they want to 754 00:39:14,346 --> 00:39:17,386 connect with you, if they want to find out more about suite analytics. 755 00:39:17,791 --> 00:39:20,041 What's the best way to do that? 756 00:39:20,631 --> 00:39:21,381 Yeah, thanks matt. 757 00:39:21,451 --> 00:39:22,361 Um, it's oliver. 758 00:39:22,651 --> 00:39:24,711 spark at sweetanalytics. 759 00:39:24,751 --> 00:39:27,681 com So as for my name plus sweetanalytics. 760 00:39:27,681 --> 00:39:29,791 com and so the website is sweetanalytics. 761 00:39:30,521 --> 00:39:34,576 com I'm guessing if people want to head to the website Thank you, Matt. 762 00:39:34,606 --> 00:39:39,016 It is exactly all LinkedIn again, all of a spark on LinkedIn. 763 00:39:39,086 --> 00:39:43,756 So either of those would be great to hear from people because I mean, I'm genuinely, 764 00:39:43,756 --> 00:39:47,526 I'm really happy to have a chat with anybody about how you grow your business. 765 00:39:48,466 --> 00:39:49,636 Fantastic. 766 00:39:49,726 --> 00:39:52,626 I'm just making a note here to make sure that I'm actually 767 00:39:52,626 --> 00:39:53,546 connected with you on LinkedIn. 768 00:39:54,066 --> 00:39:56,456 Uh, so we'll make sure that we are doing that. 769 00:39:57,026 --> 00:40:00,986 Uh, Oliver, listen, we will, of course, make sure that all the info and all 770 00:40:00,986 --> 00:40:02,506 the links to you are in the show notes. 771 00:40:02,526 --> 00:40:05,126 So if you are listening to the show, if you're driving in your car and you've 772 00:40:05,126 --> 00:40:08,716 not been able to jot it all down, don't panic, because they will be in... 773 00:40:09,101 --> 00:40:11,281 The show notes, which you can get for free along with a 774 00:40:11,281 --> 00:40:13,181 transcript at e commerce podcast. 775 00:40:13,211 --> 00:40:13,791 net. 776 00:40:14,111 --> 00:40:18,671 Or if you're signed up to the newsletter, they'll just be coming direct to your 777 00:40:18,671 --> 00:40:20,041 inbox with all kinds of good stuff. 778 00:40:20,041 --> 00:40:22,261 So, uh, that will be coming through to you. 779 00:40:22,631 --> 00:40:26,431 Uh, but Oliver, thank you so much for joining me from Valencia, Spain. 780 00:40:26,431 --> 00:40:29,131 Thanks for, you know, giving us a few minutes where you're not on the beach, 781 00:40:29,451 --> 00:40:33,041 um, sharing your awesome insights. 782 00:40:33,361 --> 00:40:35,771 It's been a thoroughly enjoyable conversation. 783 00:40:35,791 --> 00:40:38,571 And, um, I wish we had a little bit more time because I've got a lot more. 784 00:40:38,596 --> 00:40:42,066 questions, uh, but, uh, we'll have to carry it on, on a separate occasion. 785 00:40:42,066 --> 00:40:43,916 So thank you, uh, genuinely. 786 00:40:43,926 --> 00:40:44,706 Thank you for coming on. 787 00:40:45,636 --> 00:40:46,416 Thank you very much, Matt. 788 00:40:46,416 --> 00:40:47,016 I enjoyed it. 789 00:40:47,056 --> 00:40:49,246 And the great thing was we only did three out of the five. 790 00:40:49,246 --> 00:40:49,976 So it was perfect. 791 00:40:50,066 --> 00:40:53,246 I mean, we did everything I imagined we would get to, but wouldn't get to. 792 00:40:57,551 --> 00:41:00,701 But this is why I say what the start what are they just so everybody 793 00:41:00,701 --> 00:41:02,961 knows because if you only ever gets three of them by the end of the show, 794 00:41:02,991 --> 00:41:04,381 people feel cheated, don't they? 795 00:41:04,381 --> 00:41:06,311 So, um, but no, it's great. 796 00:41:06,321 --> 00:41:06,721 Thank you. 797 00:41:06,721 --> 00:41:07,571 Thank you for coming on. 798 00:41:07,931 --> 00:41:13,781 What a great Conversation that was with Oliver and also a big shout out to today's 799 00:41:13,781 --> 00:41:15,751 show sponsor, the e commerce cohort. 800 00:41:16,111 --> 00:41:20,211 Remember to check out their free training at ecommercecycles. 801 00:41:20,261 --> 00:41:22,621 com where it's me doing the training. 802 00:41:22,621 --> 00:41:25,791 So as long as you've not had enough of my voice, you'll enjoy it and 803 00:41:25,931 --> 00:41:28,011 hopefully it will be helpful. 804 00:41:28,301 --> 00:41:30,901 Now be sure to follow the e commerce podcast wherever you get your 805 00:41:30,931 --> 00:41:34,711 podcast from because we have got yet more great conversations lined 806 00:41:34,711 --> 00:41:37,161 up and I don't want you to miss. 807 00:41:37,686 --> 00:41:38,496 Any of them. 808 00:41:38,626 --> 00:41:39,376 No, I don't. 809 00:41:39,386 --> 00:41:43,986 So make sure you are subscribed wherever you get your podcast from. 810 00:41:43,996 --> 00:41:49,296 Now, in case no one has told you yet today, you are awesome. 811 00:41:49,446 --> 00:41:50,056 Yes, you are. 812 00:41:50,066 --> 00:41:50,976 Created awesome. 813 00:41:51,206 --> 00:41:53,476 It's just a burden you have to bear. 814 00:41:53,526 --> 00:41:54,496 Oliver has to bear it. 815 00:41:54,796 --> 00:41:56,106 I have to bear it. 816 00:41:56,106 --> 00:41:57,186 You've got to bear it as well. 817 00:41:57,296 --> 00:42:00,646 Now, the e commerce podcast is produced by Aurion Media. 818 00:42:00,656 --> 00:42:04,796 You can find our entire archive of episodes on your favorite podcast app. 819 00:42:05,166 --> 00:42:09,277 The team that makes this show possible is Sadaf Beynon, Estella 820 00:42:09,277 --> 00:42:10,936 Robin, and Tanya Hutzalak. 821 00:42:11,226 --> 00:42:14,026 Our theme song was written by Josh Edmundson. 822 00:42:14,316 --> 00:42:17,096 And as I mentioned, if you would like to read the transcript or show 823 00:42:17,096 --> 00:42:18,356 notes, head over to the website. 824 00:42:19,991 --> 00:42:20,551 ecommercepodcast. 825 00:42:21,151 --> 00:42:21,781 net. 826 00:42:21,791 --> 00:42:23,651 So that's it from me. 827 00:42:23,711 --> 00:42:25,151 That's it from Oliver. 828 00:42:25,201 --> 00:42:27,571 Thank you so much for joining us. 829 00:42:27,861 --> 00:42:31,301 Uh, have a great, fantastic week, wherever you are in the world. 830 00:42:31,511 --> 00:42:32,311 I'll see you next time. 831 00:42:32,811 --> 00:42:33,436 Bye for now.