GINA MUNDY POD 


Trish: [00:00:00] My name is Trish Ware and I am obsessed with all things pregnancy and birth and helping you to navigate with the practical and the magical seasons of this journey called motherhood. I'm an all day coffee sippin mama of seven. I've had the amazing privilege of delivering many babies. In my 15 plus year career as a labor and delivery nurse, and as a mama of seven, I'm here to help you take the guesswork out of childbirth so you can make the choices that are right for you and your baby. 


Quick note, this podcast is for educational purposes only and does not replace your medical advice. Check out our full disclaimer at the bottom. of the show notes. 


Good morning, everyone. I am really excited. And I know you guys are like, that's what you always [00:01:00] say. But we're pretty picky about who we choose to be on our podcast. And today's guest is Gina Mundy. And she is a an attorney that specializes in childbirth cases. And so I'm really excited. I'm so excited to have her on. 


Of course we started talking before we hit record and I'm like, hold up. We've got to talk about this on the podcast. So welcome Gina. 


Gina: Thanks for having me, Trish. I'm so excited for today's conversation. 


Trish: Me too. So tell me how you got into this field of working with childbirth cases. Like how did you end up specializing with that? 


Thanks 


Gina: Yeah, it's a really boring story. I wish it was better. Literally graduated law school, took the bar, passed the bar, needed a first job, stumbled on this area and was hired into a team of over 20 people and this is all they did were these baby cases. And just so your audience knows, a baby [00:02:00] case means baby's not born healthy. 


Baby may pass away during childbirth or mom. So these are serious cases. And I was at that age too, where I was, having a baby was on my radar. So I'm like, wait a minute, I got to stick around for this job and, make sure what I was seeing in these cases didn't happen during the birth of my own kids. 


Trish: And that's why I wanted you on here because we don't want you guys to end up needing to be in a case like this. And so I figured what we could do is talk about what are some safeguards that these parents can put in place and how can they advocate for themselves? What is your advice to let's say one of your friends is pregnant or your family members what do you tell them? 


What does Gina tell them at the dinner table? 


Gina: So Gina tells them to read her book. I did right now. So I have two girls, 20 and 16, and I did. ultimately start putting [00:03:00] down, what I know down on paper for them. Because I'll tell you as a childbirth attorney, how I would prepare my kids, family, friends, way different than how a traditional family would prepare. 


So yeah, I started to write and then as I started writing, it became quite apparent that this is information that would just not help my kids, a lot of other, Families, so I direct them to chapter one and basically chapter one. Those are the lessons from the baby cases So it's a lesson we can learn from the past to help prevent the future but lesson number one Huge very important. 


You must prepare for childbirth. You must get ready. You must get ready Just take those great courses. I know you offer an amazing course, but just taking those great courses and just having an understanding of what you're walking into is so crucial. It'll help things like communication on decision making. 


Listen, in the cases, families are just a one decision minutes from a healthy baby [00:04:00] decision making during childbirth is incredibly important and any like anything in life, are you going to make better decisions if you're educated about something? Or if you're not, it's a very common sense, but then also communication is huge with your delivery team and so you're going to communicate better if you know what you're communicating. 


So the number one lesson by far is just getting ready, preparing for childbirth. Now in chapter one, I do have all of the lessons and then each lesson is then a subsequent chapter. Yeah, that's number one, absolutely. And then also in that chapter, I write and I tell parents like, Hey, you're a mom, you're the decision maker, your delivery team and your nurse and doctor. 


And whoever, when they're giving you or telling you something, they're actually in the form of recommendations. That's so much. This is what you have to do. And I know some doctors talk like they're telling you what to do. They're actually not. They can't. They can't do anything. [00:05:00] They can't break your bag of water. 


They can't, start Pitocin. Let's just 


Trish: face it. Some of them think they can. 


Gina: So that's why it's super important again, that parents. The expecting parents take courses like yours, read a book like mine. They're going to be like, wait a minute. What? I'm decision maker. And oh, wow. 


And decisions are really important. And so are, especially the good decisions. But yeah, I know how they communicate. I've been, I've been their attorney for 21 years. I've analyzed OBGYNs. Literally, that has been my profession. So I know how they communicate. And some, it's they tell me and I'm like, I'm your attorney. 


Yeah. Sometimes. 


Trish: Step back, Buster. Yeah. No, what's so frustrating to me and why I do what I do and why I stepped away from bedside nursing. I didn't mean to step away from bedside nursing. It's just my business took a life of its own and there, there was no option. But why I did it and my motto is to change the birth culture one birth at a time [00:06:00] I can't tell you. 


how many patients I admitted that when I'm getting to know them, I'm a very hands on, like as much as you want me to be a part of your room and in there, I'm going to be in there with you. But I would ask them, did you take a birth class? And the majority of them would say no, or they took the hospital provided one. 


And I'm sorry, like I am adamantly against them. I was asked many times about teaching them at different hospitals that I worked at if I wanted to head that up. And the curriculum is very much about be a good little soldier, here are the policies, these are the procedures, and not really explaining the patient's rights. 


And When the rights are breezed over during the admission process, they're not done where it's these are your rights. It's [00:07:00] yeah, these are your rights, but you really need to do what I say. And so I always said no to doing that. But one of the things you said, you said a couple of things. 


So I have a three part framework in my birth program. The first one is knowledge. And The second part is your mindset, and the third part is advocating. So if you're super bold and outspoken, but you have no knowledge, that's not going to do a darn thing for you. You might be with that person who always stands up for yourself, but like Gina said, if they come in and they present a, an intervention or some sort of course of action, and you don't know what the alternatives are, you don't understand what they're saying, you don't understand the intervention, you're just going to be like, okay, So you might be bold to speak up, but when it comes to you and your baby, you're going to [00:08:00] lean into their knowledge. 


So being bold without knowledge doesn't work. Having knowledge, but not having the ability or the confidence to speak up. doesn't work well either. And then the third part is that mindset and the belief in your body and knowing that your body was built to do this. And you have to have all three. You have to have all three to be able to really navigate that. 


And that's one of the things that we've done that's a little bit different than any other birth course. is that we have got our courses. And of course, anyone can just buy it and do it and never reach out to us, never take part. But we also meet with our moms every Wednesday on Zoom and we help them really digest and understand what they're learning and then how to apply it. 


And one of the bit, parts of my birth class is the hospital process. I have a lot of home birth students as well, and I have birth center [00:09:00] students. Birth is birth, no matter where it happens. The process is different. And so I teach them from calling into the hospital, to walking into triage, to being taken to postpartum, or to, labor and delivery, getting admitted, Going through the admission process, we walk through all the interventions, why they're necessary, why they're used unnecessarily. 


And my big thing is we can refuse anything, but should you? And I think that's where a lot of birth courses, sorry, fall short, is they're all about, you have rights and you don't have to do this. And you can say, no, yes, you can, but should you? And knowing when it's necessary because you and I both know if a baby's heart rate is down in the 40s and your doctor wants to use a vacuum, you may have said, I will never ever do that.[00:10:00] 


But this might be a time you should, so it's really about that whole puzzle piece. And having that, all of that. And I love that you said I start out my free classes saying one of the biggest birth mistakes I see is winging your birth. 


Gina: Hundred percent. Yeah. Hundred percent. And I, okay, audience. 


I love this as the child birth attorney who only sees the bad, you're lucky you got to see good and bad. I only, for 21 years, professionally has seen the bad. And I can tell you what you're teaching your students and clients is. I am, I'm just, I'm blown away. I am so incredibly happy right now because that is going to help parents have a healthy baby. 


And, and that's why I'm on shows like this. That's why I wrote a book because basically instead of getting involved in the aftermath of something going wrong, I'm trying to get involved beforehand, before childbirth to say, hi, families, this is what you have to know. This is what you have to, have an [00:11:00] understanding of in order to have a healthy baby and your class. 


All day long sounds like an absolute dream. So I think 


Trish: We're both doing the same thing. We want to, the majority of my students who have already had a baby are coming to me because of trauma one way or the other, one degree to the other, and I can't prevent birth trauma, obviously, because there's such, it's such a subjective range for trauma. 


But what I do know is if they take my classes and they participate, They will not leave their birth, no matter how it turns out, thinking, what if I done this? What if I done that? They will know that they navigated it and they made decisions alongside their care team. That I know. 


Gina: Okay. And that will unequivocally reduce, possible birth trauma, with your clientele. 


That's it. That's amazing. And I'll tell you until I, so I published my [00:12:00] book and then I've been on shows and I'm, but until I published my book, I was really just in this child birth case world where I wasn't really on, I really wasn't out talking to moms, talking to other, great people like yourself who are creating these just amazing courses, but what I've, Learned over the last six months is that yeah, birth trauma is not your baby can be healthy. 


You can be healthy and still have significant birth trauma. And I've been on a lot of shows actually with moms who they started the show. because they had a significant birth trauma and they don't want other moms to experience it. Yes, their baby's fine. Yes, they're fine. But mentally, they went into it, unprepared and not, and just not ready. 


And now they're on this mission to make sure it doesn't happen to other families. But I'll tell you what I've learned. I think it's most important is that it's trauma in the end. And it's some trauma stays with you, no matter what kind of trauma it is. So doing whatever you can do now to [00:13:00] prevent it. And it is, listen, that the day you hold your baby for the first time is such a powerful, magical moment. 


It's a moment you dream about your entire life. So getting ready for it. I cannot stress enough how important that is as an attorney specializing in childbirth cases. 


Trish: And I tell them all the time no matter how many babies you have, you only have that birth with that baby one time and do what you can. 


What is in your control? What is in my control? What's in my control is educating myself, communicating with my team, preparing a support group, whether it's your partner or a doula or whatever, and preparing my home because like you said, there's a lot of things that can and talking about trauma when what I was taught in training to be a labor nurse is that birth trauma. 


meant like a catastrophic event. That was birth trauma. [00:14:00] And what I've learned is that the BS we say, Oh at least you and baby are fine, is horrible. And part of. Part of my program, we also have a mama membership, it's pregnancy and postpartum. Some of my girls have been with me like going on three years at this point. 


And part of that membership includes weekly hangouts with our postpartum moms. And I'm just going to be completely transparent and some, a lot of my listeners have heard me say this, but it's still It's still, honestly, there, there have been times I've laid in bed just like what in the world because, and the reason is we started hanging out with them every Thursday, the postpartum moms. 


I'm a labor and delivery nurse. I recover you for two hours and I, you're on your way. The majority of time I've ever spent with postpartum moms has been in real life. If I say that with quotes, with my [00:15:00] own friends. And most of us had babies at the same time. None of us had time to sit down and have a really deep conversation. 


We're trying to breastfeed, our nipples are hurting, our butt hurts. Kids are running around. You don't have time to sit and say, Hey, I know that my baby's healthy. I know that I'm healthy, but I'm, reliving my birth because A, B, or C happened. And. The very first postpartum hangout we had was one of the most powerful experiences we've ever had with a group of women. 


And all of us are so bonded, that group, because one of the moms had the courage to say some of the things she was going through. And it was the first time I brought my VBAC moms. together with my calm labor mom. So I have two birth courses. One is calm labor, confident birth. That's for anyone. First baby, second baby hospital, home birth, whatever.[00:16:00] 


The VBAC lab is specifically for someone who's had a C section who wants to have a vaginal delivery. I always kept them apart, right? And so some of those students, this is the first time they met. Part of the reason I kept them apart is that I don't want these moms who wanted a vaginal birth so badly and didn't get it. 


to talk to this mom who had this perfect vaginal birth. They started healing together because we had one mom that on the outside she, she had a two hour labor, she got to the hospital, she delivered really fast, and It sounded like an amazing birth. Perfect. She cried and shared with us for five minutes talking about her emotions because it happened so fast. 


It was so traumatizing to her, and she didn't she had plans. They had a playlist and they had twinkle lights and yeah. So to some people that might be [00:17:00] like, so someone who ended up in emergency c section, if they didn't get to know her and see the emotions, the deep emotions she was feeling, they might've blown her off, right? 


But it was so apparent to all of us that she was traumatized and we were able to walk through that with her. And that has been life changing for me as a labor nurse. Honestly, to experience that with these moms, that was a shocker to me. 


Gina: Yeah. You 


Trish: know? 


Gina: Wow. Yeah. It sounds amazing that cause you're right. 


You would only see him for the first couple hours. See ya. Have a nice day until you start that group. Wow. What a great resource. I wish I had something like that when I was Oh, me too. When I, my oldest is 20 now. Youngest is 9 but I know you have 7 kids. You 


Trish: sound like me. My oldest is 34 and my youngest is 9. 


Oh my goodness. 


Gina: Yeah, you have a huge gap. 


Trish: I started very young and ended [00:18:00] old. But yeah, it's just, it's been a really amazing experience. And I also have three doulas on my team. And so to bring us together, because typically in the real world, butt heads, doulas, and labor nurses. So it's just been a really amazing experience. 


And yeah to be able to process that trauma and to walk through, and I'm not saying that some of my students have had some, I've had students have had losses there, they've had fetal demise, which is for those of you guys listening, they've had babies that have been stillborn and, you know, one of them that I'm thinking of, she's pregnant with her second baby after her loss, and she's still one of my students. 


She's involved in my community. I love her dearly. Support is everything as well. Sounds like 


Gina: a great, what a great resource. I'm just like, I'm just so blown away listening to you. I love it. And by the way I love doulas. [00:19:00] As a child birth attorney, I've never had a doula in a case. If a doula would have even stepped in the labor and delivery room, she'd be a fact witness. 


If she even talked to a mom during pregnancy, she'd be a fact witness. So doulas are definitely doing great things too. 


Trish: Okay, hold up. Let's pause. What you're saying is that These worst case scenarios who are suing doctors and hospitals, right? That's what we're saying. Don't have doulas. They 


Gina: do not have doulas. 


Trish: There's a connection there, people. 


Gina: Yes. And so once I figured that out when I wrote my book, again, I'm in my just litigation attorney world. I focused on, okay, what are the common facts, common issues in the baby cases? That's chapter 11. Just so that way parents know, I give the top 10, that way they have a heightened sense of awareness. 


It helps activate their intuition, again, back down to decision making, they can make better [00:20:00] decisions. What I did not focus on until after my book was published, so maybe this will go into the pregnancy book, what's not? In these cases, doulas and then another thing is spontaneous vaginal births with no epidural. 


Those cases are few and far between. And I know. I'm going to start screaming in a second. Yeah. Then I got to tell you this then. So do you want to try to guess the number one most common fact and issue in a legal baby case? 


Trish: Pitocin, probably. 


Gina: Yeah, you're right. A hundred percent. 100 percent the most common fact. 


Trish: I feel so emotional you guys right now. Like I want to start crying because sometimes I'm so exhausted with labor nurse mama, like it's exhausting. I am a labor and delivery nurse. My passion, my goal. Like my drive to be a nurse was not to be a nurse, it was to be a labor and delivery nurse. And I'm going to tell my story tonight [00:21:00] during my workshop, but I have never been more disheartened and disgusted by what I saw behind the scenes once I got my dream job. 


And it was a very specific patient who I labored with her all my whole shift. I was night shift at the time. She was amazing. She did not need Potosin. She did not need intervention. I knew damn well that this doctor did not like to stay long. He liked to get, he wanted to get home. He was pushing her. I sat by her bedside as long as possible. 


I always teach my patients and in my course, I teach them how to basically understand the fetal monitor. So they know the difference between a low heart rate and a sleeping baby. And because they will use that a lot to go back to the OR [00:22:00] and. So I sat there as long as I could, had to go to the bathroom, ended up coming back there, prepping her for the OR. 


And this was a very healthy, spontaneous labor. She did everything right. They talked her into Pitocin because it wants you, you were doing really good, but we, we don't want this to turn into something. It doesn't need to be. Ended up on Pitocin despite my. Because at the bed, this is why I do what I do. 


Because at the bedside, I have to just follow his orders. Now, if he's doing something grossly negligent, obviously I'm going to go to my charge nurse. But basically, this is hospital policy, this is standard, this is what we do, which is pretty much puts you all on Pitocin for one reason or the other. And so she ended up on Pitocin, then it just, 


And so she ended up in the OR and I remember that next day crying in my car [00:23:00] and at the time, like this is before Instagram was like a big thing. This is before online educators. I really didn't know what to do. So I started a blog. Oh. Yeah. Good. You did something. Good. I did. I did do something. I, it was a hot mess, but I started a blog and now I do what I do and I'm so passionate about it. 


Oh, have you ever seen Ricky Lake's documentary, by the way? 


Gina: No. 


Trish: You need to watch 


Gina: it. All right. I'll watch 


Trish: it. It's what's really interesting about it. It's called the business of being born. And what's very interesting about it is that her. Partner and videographer, like the person who's video is pregnant and ends up with an emergency preterm c section. 


The whole point of it is talking about this business. And there is one scene that is so freaking accurate, and it's the doctors coming in and looking at the whiteboard where, cause we [00:24:00] always have a whiteboard, we have the rooms, we have, categories and it'll say whether she's got an epidural, whether she's in induction, if she's at this point of her, her, whether she's inactive or like latent, whether she has Pitocin or not. 


And there's a scene where they're like, did you up the Pitocin? on? What's the Pitocin on? Is the Pitocin up? Have you put it up? When's the last time you went up? It's like Pitocin. That is so freaking accurate. 


Gina: Yeah. It's crazy. I wrote my book to expecting families to help them. 


Pitocin being, I don't just identify pitocin as the number one most common factor in a legal baby case. I'm like, listen, based upon my 21 years traveling across the country, whatever, researching the drug, cross examining OBGYNs extensively on this drug, you name it. I wrote chapter 14 and that is how to have a safe pitocin induction. 


I have gotten the So much feedback from my labor and delivery nurses. They're literally because I'm a If you're gonna do it and that may be a good option [00:25:00] for a parent, there's or an expecting mom Maybe it is. If you're gonna do it, I'm definitely the slow and steady Slow and slow. 


Let it hit your sweet spot. I have a whole 


Trish: lesson on this. Stop it. I have a whole lesson on this in my course. Slow and steady. Starting and the studies have shown Slow and steady. That is what's effective. And. Oh, this is so maddening starting low and going slow and stopping it when the body takes over. 


And I can tell you as a 16 year labor and delivery nurse, that it is very apparent to all of us. It's a very different pattern presentation of Pitocin contractions versus her body taking over. We know when it happens. And they want us to just go up, crank it. So 


Gina: the labor and delivery nurses have been using my book, so they, against the physicians. 


So they don't have to up it because they don't want to up it. And so they're like, no, I was that, 


Trish: I was that nurse that was [00:26:00] like, Oh yeah, I'll go in there. Okay. And avoid, I even have a real on this because I literally never went up by two. I always went up by 


Gina: my God. That's yeah. This wow. Oh my goodness, this makes me so incredibly happy because you know what, somebody may need a Pitocin induction. 


The introduction to my book is my niece's story. She had a rough childbirth and but she basically, she went in at 38 weeks. There were concerns about the baby. I saw the heart rate. There were legit concerns. And yeah. And that's 


Trish: again, it's necessary when it's necessary. Yeah. 


Gina: And she had two choices, pit induction, C section. 


Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it was a good choice for her and that obviously it was crazy slow, crazy, steady or whatever. Yeah. Even then it was still hard. 


Trish: And I'm just going to be very real with you. The doctors have a very easy time convincing the moms that they want to go up because the moms are tired of it. 


It's exhausting. [00:27:00] Inductions are in, they're exhausting mentally, physically, emotionally. They just want to meet their baby. Yeah. It's a very ripe environment for the doctors to manipulate them into rushing things because I've had so I am a homeschool mom. I love education. I would spend so much time educating my patients and I swear to God, 90 percent of them. 


Would then do exactly what the doctor said, despite what I told them and even warn them would happen, and so I, there's let me just tell you this really quick. My very first labor and delivery job was at a birth center. It was a freestanding birth ward. Okay. At a freestanding hospital. 


You're going to, this is going to make you literally your stomach get sick. They had no blood in house. They had no doctor in house. They hired 32 of us new nurses [00:28:00] on night shift with no doctor at night and no blood in house. And the charge nurse for labor and delivery was also the charge nurse for the general med surge floor on the bottom floor of the hospital. 


But they had decided that they wanted to go to become a high risk. So they were starting. Up until like around the time I got hired and why they hired so many of us. Now I came into this blindly. I just wanted to be a labor nurse. I didn't know anything. And they hired all of us, which was a nightmare in itself. 


The majority of their patients were inductions and they were transitioning to this high risk status. Like they were taking not, they, I don't, they had a, they were transitioning to a level two NICU. Before that they had just a nursery and they were trying. Yeah, they were trying to move up from like maybe even going to level three. 


I don't remember exactly what it was. It's been so long. This was so [00:29:00] long. This was 2006? 7? I don't remember. Anyway, so they are sending us in groups to get trained at the big hospital that they're attached to, the high risk hospital. However, they were bringing in inductions after another and they were going up four by four. 


What? Yeah. 


Gina: Oh my goodness. And none of us, 


Trish: none of us had a clue, right? And so I took my first travel assignment because we needed some extra money and I heard about it. It was a four week assignment in California. I thought it was going to be a one time thing. I learned more in that four week assignment with union nurses who don't do shit unless they want to. 


I'll tell you that much. I learned more and We were doing blood sugars on every baby we were doing insane things, and I came back and quit the job. I was like, I'm not losing my [00:30:00] license for these people. There's no way. I was sick, and I even met with them to talk to them about that's not safe, what you're doing. 


It was, and I never saw that anywhere else, but it was a nightmare. A nightmare. 


Gina: Yeah. And, yeah. It's so scary. 


Trish: It is scary. 


Gina: I'm telling you. That's what I keep, that's what I tell people. I always say, I'm like, I was hired into a team of 20 people. This is all we did. Baby cases. I know nobody knows we exist unless you have an unfortunate labor and delivery, but yeah. 


Yeah. The stuff, this stuff happens, but it's, again. Getting ready, understanding, it would be much better off. Just my students, 


Trish: my students know the rate that Pitocin is ordered. I, and they know the rate that I say to ask for and they will push back. Let me tell you, and these doctors, one of the doctors told my student who was, She was, [00:31:00] oh my gosh, what did, what was she? 


I think she was 41 years old and I don't remember, but he told her that if you, like nobody, like if you, basically no one delivers without being induced, like it just doesn't happen. 


Gina: Oh my goodness. So hold on. I was on the phone with the doctor. Hold on. And he said, he told me the standard of care. So that means what a reasonable and prudent physician must do or does. 


If a patient is a good candidate for an elective C section at 39 weeks, the standard of care is that he or she, the doctor, must offer that patient an elective induction per the standard of care these days. That's what he's telling me. I'm like, what? I was, oh, my stomach went upside down. Do you, I need to 


Trish: start a book with some of the bullshit these people say. 


Gina: Yeah, this is very interesting. And then so in my book, in my How to Have a Safe [00:32:00] Pitocin Induction, I am definitely a one, let your body respond to it. Go only go up by one. Six is the equivalent to, supposed to be equivalent to spontaneous. And then, most orders go to 20. In my book, I'm like, stop them at 10. 


So if you're going to have an abduction, something you need to talk to about, with your doctor, during your pregnancy. If it's something that happens, at the hospital, you didn't want it, but you know what? That's going to be a good choice. Given your labor, you should have a basics so you understand it. 


So then you can talk to the doctor, but I have them in the book no, stop the Pitocin at 10, your order can only go to 10, not 20. And, I don't even want them to get to 10, but if it does that, maybe that everybody reacts to it. Put those in different if it is what it is. But yeah, no, I think you'd find that if you haven't read it. 


And the other thing is, 


Trish: is that can, what I recommend they do is go low and slow until the body takes over. Once you're making consistent cervical change, tell them you want it stopped or cut in [00:33:00] half. Period. Yes. 100%. And that is the biggest thing that these doctors fight back on and do not give much on. 


Real quick, 


Gina: in the baby cases, that's the biggest issue. And here's the deal. Here's the deal, everybody. So I, like I said, I've traveled the country meeting with delivery teams and doctors and nurses and everybody. has different opinions on how to administer Pitocin. So for instance, I have a case involving Pitocin. 


I have to retain expert doctors to look at the case and they will look at the care. They'll look at the medical records and they'll tell me, was the care that mom and baby received, was that good care or bad care? Was the Pitocin induction reasonable? within the standard of care or was it unreasonable? 


And I will literally have two doctors and the first doctor will tell me everything was done wrong. The Pitocin was incorrectly administered. [00:34:00] Basically, they catapult, they blew the baby out of the uterus with too much Pitocin. And then I'll have my second doctor look at the case. And the second doctor, I'm not kidding you, will tell me that everything was done correctly and the Pitocin was correctly administered and it had nothing to do with what went wrong during delivery. 


So I, so when that doctor told me that, I was so like, how is that possible? So I asked her, about the first doctor. I said I probably, 


Trish: probably because the second doctor was like, shit, this is exactly what I do. And if I say it's wrong, then I'm wrong. 


Gina: Yep. So that's my opinion. So I said listen, the first doctor said everything was done wrong and they blew the baby out of the uterus with the Pitocin. 


And that doctor goes, I'm offended by that statement. And I'm like, wow, but these doctors have very different opinions. So it's really, it's important to understand one doctor may be a slow and steady. One [00:35:00] doctor may be very aggressive. 


Trish: Yeah. And the thing about that, the thing about that's so maddening is that they come up with. 


ways to support whatever it is they want, no matter whether it's the right thing or not. And I've seen that through the course of my career because when I first started, they didn't it was not the norm to be induced, right? Then I went through a season of my career where they were scheduling an elect an induction at the very first prenatal appointment. 


Then they, clamped down on them and said it had to be a medical reason if it was before 39 weeks, cannot happen after 39 weeks, then we get this whole stupid ARRIVE study, which is bullshit. In the book. Bullshit. Chapter 14. Okay, thank you. I'm gonna order your book because it's so frustrating. 


And so we see, [00:36:00] and I always joke that there's probably like a one, America's most wanted picture of me on every labor and delivery unit because I know the doctors hate me. But what we would see is then they find a way to get around that suddenly everybody has a big baby or everybody has a small baby or her water would break in an appointment. 


During a VAT exam 


Gina: by any chance? Yes. Yes. Oh, weird. Yeah. By the way, water breaking is huge. 


Trish: I know. And I tell my, I, so my students are told not to allow them, if they decide they want to it, not to do it until they're in late active stage of labor. Oh my 


Gina: gosh. Listen to this. Ready? Chapter 11. 


One of the most common facts and issues in the baby cases. And this is more of a point in time. If there's a complication or a mistake, it is almost always. after the water breaks. That decision is huge. In [00:37:00] the book, I'm like, listen, doctor wants to break your bag of water. You say, is there a medical reason or do you want to be home for dinner? 


Trish: And the thing about it is the studies show that it only shortens their labor by 30 minutes. What the hell? Now there are times during an induction where breaking the water will speed things up, but it's not worth the risk. It's 


Gina: not. So if mom has already had a baby, so mom's on baby two, she's having a pit induction and yeah, she doesn't really want to increase the pit. 


That might be depending on mom, a good option in order to avoid, increasing the pit and getting that the natural Contractions. Yeah. Let me tell you, let me tell you 


Trish: really quick, and this is going to probably make you cringe as well. So I, like I said, I've done pretty much my entire career travel, mostly on the West Coast, which like I love, like Seattle, I got chastised one time by a doctor for starting IV [00:38:00] fluids on a labor patient. 


What? That makes no sense. It does. They encourage actually drinking and eating, which is the best. Oh, okay. So I started the IV and then hung fluids and she was like, did, why did you put fluids? But on the East coast, we started IV, we do fluids. They only get ice chips. That's the norm. 


Gina: Yeah. I'm on the East coast. 


Yes. Yeah. What are you doing? In 


Trish: Seattle. They see birth as a natural process and you only intervene as needed. IV fluids, that's an intervention. If you have a healthy mom who is consuming fluids. Now I go either way with my students. If they don't want to have an IV site, that's their choice. I personally would rather have one at, a hep lock in because I don't like to get an IV. 


I don't like getting stuck myself. And I don't want it in an emergency. I want the calm nurse who knows what she's doing to do it when I'm calm, but if [00:39:00] they don't want, but yeah, I got, so anyway, this is what I was going to tell you. So I did most of my career on the West coast, which is way more advanced than the East coast. 


And. I get we move back to Nashville and I get my first job and we had a provider who would come in at 7 a. m. on all of his inductions, whether they came in the morning or the night before he would, oh, just it gets worse. He would break their water with an FSC with a fetal scalp electrode and put it right on. 


At half a centimeter. Wow. 


Gina: That is I talked about that in my book, the doctors who come in at 7 AM and they'll come in because they'll, they want to be home for dinner. They want mom delivering by lunch and they do these seven o'clock rounds and how do I know? And what 


Trish: they do? 


What they want for us, they call us at 615 and tell us to have the pads under her bottom, to have a pad ready for her, to have the amni hook out, to [00:40:00] have all the things and be at bedside because they're coming in really quick to break her water. Do they say, Hey how dilated is she? What's going on? 


Like, where is she at in her labor? No. No. No. They don't care. 


Gina: Yeah, I know this, obviously, so this is not a good practice. And I talk about in my book, individualized care, not your generic care. That would be generic care. Again, you got to ask questions again, like you said, advocate. Now do you teach them at all about the fetal monitor strip? 


Trish: I teach them everything. Okay. They, my, my students will say to me there's a couple of things that I hear all the time. One is Trish, you were in my head the whole time. The other thing I hear a lot is that their nurses will be like, Oh my gosh, as much as I do, like, how do you know all this? 


And then the other thing that is really common with my students is most of them, the majority of them don't get to the hospital till they're seven or eight centimeters. 


Gina: Oh, nice. Which also prevents 


Trish: a lot. 


Gina: Yeah. [00:41:00] No, I do the baby's knowing and understanding the baby's heart rate because that is the basis of so many decisions. 


If there's a concern or if they want to do something, if they want to do something, it's typically, it stems from the baby's heart rate. So like chapter, I actually, chapter eight are the different types of fetal monitors. Chapter nine is how to read the baby's heart rate. Cause I've had doctors testify. 


I teach 


Trish: them that as well. 


Gina: They're like, Hey Gina, the only way a baby can talk to me during labor is their heart rate. And I'm like, ding ding. Hey mom, the only way, if you can read your baby's heart rate, apparently they can talk to you. So let's go over that. So again, basis, but then yeah, chapter 10 is I go through all the interventions too, because again, it's so incredibly important because the doctor, this it's not concern from the baby, concern of the baby's heart rate on the baby and the monitor C section. 


It's concern and then you have your interventions. And so it's really important to understand those, before, before you go into labor. So I love that you teach that. Yeah. That's 


Trish: what I was telling you [00:42:00] before with my patient who really changed everything for me. I always teach them. Back then I would teach my patients and their partner. 


Right when I admit it, how to read the strip, how to tell, is this a sleeping heart tone or is this a minimal variation? And so I have a whole lesson on that in the part, I have a birth coach class and I actually, I, they, I encourage them both to take all the classes. But in the birth coach class, I usually teach them. 


more thoroughly. Because when mom's laboring, her only job is to labor. She doesn't need to worry about the monitor. She doesn't worry about need to worry about advocating. At that point, her partner should be as educated to speak up for her. And so I do teach them how to tell because I can't tell you how many hundreds of doctors over the course of my career have come in and they're like, you've been at this for a while and I want you to look. 


You see how the baby was, looking really good right here. Now this is, not looking so good. They're getting [00:43:00] tired. No, they're asleep. Just like me. If I'm asleep, my heart rate is not going all over the place. 


Gina: Oh yeah. And I love your support person. I actually, my book chapter seven is baby advocate. 


So it's husband, grandma, best friend, doula. Yeah. But it's the 


Trish: problem, the problem with the doula though is that the doula's hands are tied because they cannot accept or refuse anything for the patient. The partner can during those things. But 


Gina: Yeah, but even though the doula, I like because the delivery team is typically a less You know, besides doctor, but they're usually not at the hospital. 


Sometimes they are, if they have a shift or picking up or they're checking, coming in to check on me, the delivery team though, is also typically who's scheduled to work that day. So that's why I always liked having the doula come in. And again, this is more from when I published the book to okay, Doulas must be doing great things. 


But but even, but I go in my book because again, doulas really didn't come. [00:44:00] It wasn't clear until after I published my book on how I think how important it is to have a doula. So I go into support persons as in dad, grandma, best friend, whatever. These are the things, they need to do or know. I have five things at the end of my chapter that they need to know to be a good advocate. 


Trish: Yeah the studies have shown that having an educated support person consistently at bedside and the studies really lean more towards that being a doula. But I truly believe that if your partner and for sure if they take my courses, because we go through positioning and every, they know everything. 


But if you have an educated support person at bedside. You are more likely to have an uneventful vaginal delivery. You're less likely to have interventions, less likely to have a C section, more likely to perceive your birth experience as positive, and your baby is more likely to have a higher APGAR score. 


That's by having an educated support person. 


Gina: I agree with [00:45:00] that. A hundred percent, maybe a thousand percent. Yeah. Yeah. That was, it's literally, I almost named my book baby advocate and I didn't, now it's a parent's guide to a safer childbirth. Oh yeah. Like the subtitle though, cause the subtitle is so you expecting the best, using the power of knowledge to help you deliver a healthy baby. 


I love it. Boom. Your course. I love that your course covers all that. This is people. This is how you have a healthy baby. You walk in with the knowledge from Trisha's course, and you will have such a great understanding of what's happening and you're going to have such a great, such a, a better experience. 


I'll tell you, the hardest part of my job is when I have to sit down with the families and talk about the day their baby was born. And it's always hard, but I'll tell you the saddest part is when they, the families know so much more in the aftermath of something going wrong. It's I know if they would have known a lot of [00:46:00] this beforehand. 


And then they're 


Trish: filled with the what ifs. Yeah. Oh, that's what I'm saying. There's 


Gina: a really good chance they never. They never would have met someone like me. And I'll tell you the guilt. So we talked about this. I'm going to launch my own podcast here coming up. But the first person on my podcast, a mom who delivered a baby four months ago, four months ago from now, and she's a nurse. 


And she did not prepare for labor and delivery. She's obviously not a labor and delivery nurse. She walked in with a healthy baby and she left and her baby is permanently very sick. And the amount of guilt and the amount of anger that she has every day it's overwhelming. And she just it's heartbreaking. 


Talk about not being able to sleep. I did, she is my first episode because I do want parents to know this can happen. It just happened. And, we were a little fluffier with it. But then episodes after, which I'm wanting you on because I want you to teach my audience how [00:47:00] to have a safer childbirth and tell them about your course and everything. 


But yeah, that's how I started, but no, I didn't sleep that night. And I knew that. What me and you are doing right now is so incredibly important to help parents have a healthy baby 


Trish: Yeah and that, yeah, it's, oh, it's just, oh my goodness. It's the problem, the disconnect. And where I have such a hard time is I'm so passionate about what I do. 


My course is so low priced and I include so much support. I've got a team of doulas there. We're there. We really are hands on with them. The maddening part. is getting them to understand how crucial this is before they're sitting at the table with you or before they're sitting alone in the room and thinking, Oh my God, why? 


Or they come to me at their, I don't have to convince my moms who have already had a baby to take my class. They're ready. And what they're [00:48:00] like, yes, everything she's saying is true. If I had done this, if I had not done this decision led to all of that. And those are not the hard ones. 


It's these first time moms. And it's I don't want to sound salesy, but every time they ask me, what can I do? I'm like, take my class. That's what you can do. I promise you. It is the thing you have to do. And one of the things I asked during my free workshops is, why do you think that HSA and FSA and insurance covers childbirth classes? 


There's a reason because it costs them a lot less money if you're educated because you're not going to end up doing all the things most likely obviously, like we said, there's a reason for all of these interventions and there are reasons that are 100 percent necessary. But insurance companies are ahead of us because they know that an educated mom. 


is less [00:49:00] likely to end up in all of this other BS. And they don't want to spend money. They're not about you. They're about money. That's what they're about. Yeah. So anyway, we are, I could literally go on and on. I would love. To have you come into the membership and chat with my mom's I would love it. 


We need to talk more about that. But thank you so much. Let everyone, can you tell everyone, and I'm going to link to her book and to her social so you guys can find her, but just tell everyone where they can find you. 


Gina: Oh, sure. So always the best spot. Easy peasy. If you know my name, Gina Mundy. G I N A M U N D Y dot com. 


And then that'll give you my Instagram. I've been more on that at Gina Mundy. And then yeah, pretty soon I'll have my YouTube channel up and running with my podcast, the child birth attorney with Gina Mundy. And then I'll have a podcast. And yeah, but any everything is always on my website. I do have some [00:50:00] other resources on my website. 


Obviously, Trish, I'm putting your course up on my website. I love it as a huge recommendation. I love it again. And these, when, if a resource goes up on my website, it's because something I have vetted out and I would recommend to my family and friends. 


Trish: Thank you so much. And I really enjoyed this conversation. 


Wow. What an incredible episode. It's so validating for you guys to be able to hear someone else saying exactly what I've been saying. Like some of those points that Gina made literally are just mind boggling. So I'm going to link to her book, link to her resources. If you have not jumped into my birth classes, don't forget, not only do you get my birth classes, you [00:51:00] also get weekly hangouts with me and two doulas. 


Did you hear Gina say that none of her cases, those mamas had a doula? That is so true. It's powerful. Use the coupon code POD50, go to labor nurse mama. com forward slash calm and get 50 off, join and come to our hangout every Wednesday on Zoom. Okay, you guys, as always, hit subscribe, write a review, tell me how much you loved this episode because I'm sitting here blown away and I'll see you again next Friday. 


Bye for now.