Welcome to part two of this, our 11th conversation with Ah Almas. In part two we continue to swim in the ocean of divine love. And to experience this ocean is a potential for every one of us. And this ocean constitutes everything. Welcome to deep transformation. Self, society, spirit, life enhancing paradigm rattling conversations with cutting edge thinkers, contemplatives and activists with Dr. Roger Walsh and John Dupu.

I mean it seems like at this stage there's a shift in the sense of doing that it feels like the sense of doing kind of also dissolves and life just somehow flows through and it feels, you know, for me this is something I'm still trying to make sense of and live into. I'd love to hear you speak about this.

Good. So as I said, there are different ways how we can experience it different because it has this kind of realization functioning in different ways in terms of living. One of the one is the one I mentioned that it can. This ocean can manifest, can particularize itself in a certain location as an individual soul with our usual knowledge and wisdom and function. Now there are two ways that can happen. From the perspective of the soul or from perspective of the ocean of love. From the perspective of the soul, I am in an individual soul functioning in life, but connected to the ocean. Not separate from right, not separate from it. It is my ground and it's my nature and it sort of holds me and bathe me. But I'm an individual that expresses it as an individual. This is from a perspective of the individual, it can happen. The function from perspective of the ocean itself, which is the ocean can manifest us all and function through it. So you feel I am a boundless ocean functioning through an individual.

Does the love help dissolve the fear of losing your identity?

Yeah, I mean love is the best thing to dissolve fear actually.

Yeah, yeah, it's pretty good.

Perfect. Love casts out fear, John. You should be able to give the person you probably could love.

In fact, that's what I mean. This dimension, I think is not an accident. This teaching is the first one to arise this way because it's the one that helps more with love, with fear, with resistance, with holding on to certain structures and attachments and all these things. So it is panacea that way as a universal benazir.

As I said.

Now I talked about two ways of functionality. That I'm an individual that is like I'm a wave not separate from the ocean, or I am an ocean that is functioning through a wave, but it's not really a wave, it's an individual, you see. But there's an interesting thing how it happens. Like you feel like if you are the ocean manifesting the wave, you feel you are the ocean, you are everything. And within you there is particular. You particularize yourself in a certain location that seem to do all these things that are the functions of life. There is a third way, the third way that is not related to an individual soul. And I think that's the one that most non dual teachers usually talk about, which is that this ocean manifests everything, not just the soul. So it manifests everything and manifests the functioning itself, manifests walking, manifests cooking, manifests eating. So it's like all these things are formation that are appearing within this ocean. So it doesn't even need. But the only way that the soul is present is the location of the experience. Although it manifests eating, it is in your house and not in somebody else's house. Although you have the feeling it's also eating in all other houses and amid.

Would this be an example of what is spoken to in so many traditions as for example, the. The Chinese expression of wu wei or spontaneity or Meister Eckhart's acting, living without a Y?

Yeah, I mean, all the three ways include that. Actually all of them have the sense of flow, ease, spontaneity and freedom and sort of smoothness of operation. Like because of the flow, because the love has a sense of smoothness, delicateness, softness that is always flowing. And this flow kind of peers as the soul flowing, doing thing or flowing into the soul, or just a flow that is manifesting the whole universe, manifesting everything. Like, you know, from that perspective, I can be this love, this ocean of lovingness that is also manifesting our talking. It appears as individual talking, but it is all the same love, the same ocean that's doing it.

And would this love also dissolve, say the fear of death.

All fears. If the identification is not with an individual, separate individual who's going to be afraid of death. It's usually a separate individual afraid of death. And part of the fear, the fear of losing one separateness, separate mean your definition what you are. So by dissolving the fear of. I mean dissolving a separateness. And the fear of it is a long way into being free of the fear of death. Because death is death of the individual. But here the death individual is dying. In fact, many people, when they get this fear, they're afraid they're going to die. It's not fear I'm going to dissolve or I'm going to take it by God no fear. I'm going to die. That'll be the end. That's how the fear appears. The terror appears as a fear of death.

And you talk about that as most intense. This experience of love and light can be so intense that it outshines all bound, not only all boundaries and dissolves all ego structures, but that it outshines all manifestation. There is only love. Light.

Yes. Everything appears as made out of the same love. It is its nature. It is what gives them form. Like love takes forms. Basically. This is an example of the formless becoming form. Form and formlessness are two sides of the same thing. So in this dimension, form of formlessness is the same thing appears again. Because divine love, because it's formless, has no shape or size or whatever, but it appears as the forms of the world and the form of the soul, the form of the desks or the computer, all the forms, you know, but they are all part of it. And they're not necessarily form that are separate. They're formation within the same ocean. It's an interesting experience, an interesting site.

There's the understatement of the day, Hamid.

It is sort of, I mean, interesting and sort of magical way you could say that, that everything turns out to be. Is a formation out of this original substance, you see, this cosmic original substance that makes up everything. So.

And Hamid, do you. Did you. I mean, you're here talking with us today again, for which we're very grateful. But at some point did you realize in your. From identifying in this ocean of light and love that you're the individual soul? The individual Hamid had some work to do here and it was continue this, this truth, this teaching continued to come through you. And that gave you the purpose of being here to, to share this. Because you've had an extraordinary gift or whatever reason, you know, you've. You've seen further than. Than most of us. A small understatement. So does that purpose also come through as an essential part of true nature? What you're supposed to do while you're, while you're sitting here living as an individual?

It depends on. I talked about the three ways of experiencing, functioning. If experience myself as a soul, that is individual soul, that is not separate from the ocean. It has that feeling that I have a function, I have, you know, work to do. You know, the work could be cooking my meat, but also delivering a teaching. They're all from the perspective of divine love. They're all the same, but from a perspective being an ocean, that manifesting everything, everything is just in the moment, there's no thinking of the future. There isn't the perspective of what's it going to do in the future. It's just spontaneously happening in the moment. It's completely in the now. So it's a purpose. And all of that is relevant.

I mean there's a. Like to have you fill out a little more on something you alluded to, which is a particular facet of the experience of this divine love and light. And that is that you say that true nature is recognized as pure goodness, boundless, timeless, unincorruptible goodness. And therefore the manifest world, which is an expression of true nature, possesses an inherent goodness.

Yeah. So this brings us back to Plato's the good, remember? Right.

The truth, the highest truth.

And the major one is the good. He called it the good. He recognized why it is the good. Because the lovingness shows goodness much more than any other qualities, much more than awareness or emptiness or presence. Because it's love. I mean, the human being understands goodness related to love. So it feels as pure goodness because it's giving, it's effulging, it's dissolving, it's healing, it's. You know, it has no malice in it. You know, it has no malice, no negative emotion. It's all positivity. So the goodness is one of the contribution of this dimension. It's really the goodness of true nature manifesting itself as love. Because for human beings love and goodness are sort of two sides of the same thing. And so you can't tell a human being goodness is consciousness. It's hard to. For most people to buy that. But if you tell them love is goodness, most people agree with you.

And sometimes when we do a spontaneous good thing, at least my experience, I feel close to God. You know, just. It's not. I didn't plan this out, but I just connect with this human being who's in the grocery store and figuring out how my grocery car. But make this connection. In that moment, fear goes away and it just feels. I feel the goodness of just being. Yeah, that's very cool. Very deep.

Yeah, the goodness of being. Because the thing is about the sense of goodness in this dimension is so unmistakable, so palpable, so pure, so complete, so 100%. You know, it's like a goodness that make you feel happy, contented and makes you feel. You want everybody to feel the same way. And you will anything possible to make everybody experience the goodness. Because everybody is that goodness. They just need to know it, they don't know it. So in Fact, this. I think this dimension is really the main force why spiritual teaching tradition teach. Why do they teach? Why do they want people to know themselves? You know, they want them to be happy. They want to be said to be enlightened. What would that mean? I mean, they don't suffer. They end up feeling happy, feeling good, feeling joy, you know, feeling fulfilled, feeling satisfied. And they go beyond the world of strife, the world of struggle. The world. And so it makes life. Of course, it continues to have a struggle with challenges, but it's easier to deal with them, you know, because things are flowing. There is a trust and there is faith, as you said, and there is a sense of confidence that the goodness will prevail because it's inherently there. However, the thing I mentioned before, that even though we feel it, it's everywhere, I don't take it to mean other people feeling it already to feel it. And that's why I don't necessarily believe that the goodness and my experience is going to transform anybody else I could talk to. There's still people and forces in the world are not touched by it, not aware of it, very far away from it, to their misfortune, of course, but they make a lot of trouble and hurt a lot of people and destroy many things. And, you know, people are weird and odd and negative or hostile or murderous in many ways. And those people are disconnected from this. Basically, their sense of bondedness, a sense of being, entity is so disconnected that the disconnection creates a distortion. Instead of love, there's hatred. Hate is basically the opposite of love. Basically, it's either inversion. Love shows that there's no fundamental hatred in the universe. Hatred is not a quality of being. It's a distortion of a quality of being.

Yeah, the recognition of that, the basic love and essential goodness is incredibly.

But you see, this kind of dimension challenges some things. The Christian tradition takes many, not just as a Christian Muslim, the other, which is they have this conviction, part of their teaching about evil, that there is evil in the world symbolized by the devil. You see, from this perspective, there's no devil. Devil is a misguided soul. There's no pure hatred here. The fundamental nature is good. Goodness is so inherent, so fundamental, so deep, it underlies everything. So even if there is a devil, it's inherent nature is goodness.

That's such a dramatic reframe, I mean, and very analogous to some of the deeper teachings of the monotheistic traditions and of the primordial sinlessness or primordial love, or as Zogchen would call it primordial purity. Even the most demonic forms are in their fundamental nature expressions of this love, which is a very paradoxical thing. And I think somewhere else in the book you talk about that the intellect cannot grasp this, but one can experience it. And. And you also point out that the barriers that. Or blocks and obstacles that arise, as in the face of the recognition of this pure love, can even take the form of feeling demonic. That one, that the experience of pure love can reanimate early childhood feelings of rejection and basic distrust and so forth, which can be reanimated in very intense ways, even to the sense of wanting to attack and defend against this love.

Yeah. I mean, in this teaching, we have the experience of the Beast, the way that I call the Beast and the Christianity called the Beast. I mean, in fact, I remember when I first experienced it myself. You know, I woke up one night, one day in the morning, and I saw in the air written in black letter 666. I didn't even know that 666, what it means. I never heard of it before. I just saw it there. And later on I saw myself as this black kind of powerful, you know, negative force beast. Yeah. And I saw that as the Beast. And I said, oh, that's the Beast. What? The beast. And it is a process to work with it. I understand it. To find out. And I found out on the deepest level that even the Beast is the service of God at some deep level. It's not obvious. And that transforms it into love.

That's very helpful, Hamid. I ran into that myself some years ago in a retreat and had a month of a lot of experience of having these demonic feelings and motives and forces and satanic imagery. And I thought I'd contact an archetypal level of the psyche. I didn't have the kind of understanding that you were presenting. It was a really painful month. Multiple asthma attacks, wake up, you know, sweating. I mean, it was. It was not a fun month.

Yeah, you could call it archetypal in the sense as it is potential for everybody to experience. So the beast actually is an inherent part of the ego.

Okay.

The beast is a dimension of the ego, and it is a layer of love. It basically arises from childhood feeling, being abandoned by goodness or by God. And there is anger. Where are you when I need you? And that develops into something, a structure, ego structure that is completely. That is against God.

Can this beast be trained to be in service to the good beast?

It transforms, basically becomes. Not that the Beast be in service. It is in service that's what you find out. Because when I experience that, when I want went to the depth of it, the core of it, it was love. And so even the beast wasn't serving God without knowing it. Right. But then that transforms into just a loving expression, a powerful expression of love that makes it black love instead of golden love. It's black powerful, but love still sweet.

Yes.

And we haven't talked about another issue which is that of the Jabba the Hutt.

Oh yes, he was. Oh boy. Oh yes. Oh yes. So tell us about Jabba the Hutt.

The Hut is.

Yeah.

From Star Trek. Star. Star wars third movie makes second movie.

Slimy worm like obnoxious.

Big and blubbery.

And yeah, it's pretty awful looking second Star Wars. And in the first hour at the end of it, Hans Solo is captured by somebody and put them into some kind of cubic thing and takes it to Jabba the Hutt. So the first second movie starts with a scene with Java the Hutt sitting there huge blubbery. You know, it's like he was big, right? Big, huge, fat and blubbery. And he. And the thing about Jabba the Hutt, why made me use it for. For this teaching is that he just wanted everything and didn't have enough. He wanted more pleasure, more food, more dancing, more power, more everything. More, more, more, more, more, more everything. And he was controlling everything. He was big and powerful. But he had everybody serving him and.

He had Princess Leia in chains right next to his throne. Yeah, right.

Yeah. And Han Solo there somehow mummified or into a cube made into a cube, you know. And of course, you know, movies start with that. It's fun to learn about the Hut is a whole race of people. But Jabba was an evil bad one. You know, not all the huts are like that. But Jabba the Hutt. Not. Not necessarily. If all of our listeners would have known Jabba the Hutt because that was a movie from in a few decades ago. You have to have watched Star wars, been into it to know what who Jabba the Hutt is. But the idea of Jabba the Hutt and is representation of greed because greed because you're empty inside. And when you really experience the jab is an actual ego structure that emerges. I felt myself as big fatty. It's a blubbery kind of thing. Greedy. Wanting to eat, wanting to sing and wanting pleasure. Wanting to touch and like there's no end to all the thing I wanted. And then turned out it's empty inside and emptiness shows. It's unreality. So the resolution of it is to let yourself experience it, not fight it off and try to understand it. By experiencing it and not fighting it off, it shows its emptiness and dissolves and into the love, the love becomes the fullness that fills that emptiness. But it is an important thing because in this dimension it's all generous, it's all giving. Jabba the heart is the opposite. He is big and powerful, all of that, but he acts as if he doesn't have anything. He keeps wanting more and more and more and more. You see, so that's an expression, a very concrete, powerful expression of how greed can appear. So greed is one of the things that get healed in this dimension because all goodness, all giving here. So it confronts greed. That's how greed manifests.

You give a very helpful and profound explanation of the. Of the way that greed emerges from the soul. Talking about the true nature itself overflows with goodness and love and abundance. But the separate self sense is based on a worldview of discrete, separate objects which are divorced from true nature. And consequently the sense of separation is inherently colored by the sense of lack and impoverishment by the separation from true nature. And consequently there's this latent or inherent desire to recover that. But we don't know quite what we're looking for. So we take all these, what Kinwell would call substitute gratifications and yeah, love to have you speak to that.

Yeah, I mean, that's the ego as a whole, the ego structure, because it has imprinted the soul in a way to make it to identify with these historical or instinctual tendons, whatever, it becomes disconnected of the nature. So it becomes empty inside. When you see, when you really let those structures come up, they're empty. They have no inherent reality. And they can dissolve if we can stay with them and if we're not overcome by our fear or attachment and you know, can manifest in any quality or true nature or presence. But the divine love specifically deals with specific things that are contrary to love. You know, the lost and lusty greed that implies lack of richness. And this is a dimension of richness and the hateful beastliness which really magnify the separateness, alienation and this and also the lack of goodness, you know, and because this dimension is goodness and giving, so it heals those specific structures. But they appear in a very dramatic specific ways. That's the interesting thing. They don't just appear as just feeling of greed or just feeling of being bad. Those happened earlier. But that's in the first Turning, second, turning appear really dramatic, similar to what the Tibetan called wrathful deities at the beginning that change to peaceful deities. Right. They appear as wrathful in a sense, they're negative, you know, So I talk about two. I'm sure there are others we don't have time to talk about. But these are important for people to recognize that when they experience the greed, it can appear. They can experience themselves as something like Jabba the heart. They could feel greed and all of that. But the Jabba the heart, the way the dimension, this dimension of love exposes greed, pushes doubt as a particular ego structure.

So you can't just push away the greed, like get rid of the beast, you have to kind of dissolve the beast with true nature.

Yeah. I mean, so that's why, you know, when we hear about teaching, that tells you about renunciation and just push it away or disown it or all of that. From this perspective here, we see that these things don't really work. Who's going to push it away? Who's going to disown it? To push it away, to disown it, to say, that's not me. You have to be a separate individual saying it. Divine love doesn't say that. Divine love just bathes everything with love.

And Yamid, you mentioned two steps which seem really crucial and fundamental to working with all these barriers. You implied that one must not push away, but allow or even welcome these experiences as they emerge. And second, investigate them, explore them.

Yeah, we hold them, we welcome them because we're interested in the truth. Remember the interest in the truth. Go through everything. So here, I mean, love and truth are not separate thing. I mean love is very the true thing, how the truth is manifesting. So the curiosity, the interest. And you don't explore the beast or Jabba the Heart from the perspective wanting to get rid of it. You explore it from the perspective wanting to know what is it? What's it about? How come you really want to know it? You want to know it's truth. And that is more the generous attitude of love.

Yeah. You can't paradox, you can't inquire into these things in order to get rid of them.

Yeah, but you see, when you are in the midst of the experience, you can't feel, I want to get rid of it. If the motivation wanting to get rid of it is operative, that will become an ego identification.

Yeah.

That true understanding from happening.

Yeah. So the way I have come to understand it is what, whatever you're unwilling to experience in the mind sticks around until you are willing to experience it, and whatever you're unwilling to experience runs your life.

Exactly. That's what happens. I mean, Ian Freud said that unconscious, then that determines your experience.

Yeah, you kind of give a summary of the process, of the larger process involved with the emergence in this specific case of divine love. But in each of the boundless dimensions, as far as I can see, you point to five steps in a developmental process here. So maybe I can name them and you can comment, comment or expand or. It seems like first you say first there's a. A taste of true nature and then. Or. Or even a deeper immersion into it. But then what tends to happen is that evokes the blocks and barriers to it. And there's a third step. One needs to be open to and to experience and to work with those blocks and barriers. And until they dissolve sufficiently, or true nature or love dissolves them enough that one really dissolve oneself. The soul dissolves into true nature. But then there's a final process. You talk about of personalization. Then, as you. And you said it beautifully before, the soul recognizes its uniqueness, but does not get lost in a separate universe.

Yeah. And emerges, can be an individuated one, can be pearly. What I call the pearl beyond price can appear as like a pearl of divine love. Pearl made out of divine love. Emerging, expressing this divine love. So that gives us a sense of capacity to function, individuated capacity to function that has integrated the experience of life.

Beautiful. And both John and I have felt in working with this chapter on divine love, that it's really touched us both very, very deeply. And we feel like we received a transmission. For me in particular, it's very important because I'm so cerebral and. And you know, opening to love has. And devotion have been significant challenges for me. I have my. Certainly have my blocks around that. So this chapter and these ideas and the experiences you're describing and processes of working with them have just been extremely touching, I would say, and melting in a little way.

Interesting. Although this dimension of love and prayer as the first dimension, love stays as the thing that really expresses the realization in all of its dimensions. Because when it comes to living, you know, love, love is the expression and the loving expression. And love includes compassion, of course, and kindness and sweetness and generosity, the whole heart. So regardless what realization, what level we go to, the heart develops further. Even when we get to dimension like the pure awareness, the heart develops further. That is the sign of a true liberation or realization is that there's heart.

The love is part of all these different dimensions. It's foundational. It's. It's there, it's there.

It comes through all of them.

Yeah, beautiful. I mean, is there anything else you'd like to say about this topic? We've, we've covered a lot, but is there anything else?

And yeah, one thing is that we recognize that what makes us human is the love that you can't be really human without heart, you know. You know, Crocodile, for instance, doesn't have a heart. It's not a human, you know, human being have heart. Of course the heart can. Heart can appear as a negative thing, hated, whatever, all emotions. But when heart expresses itself freely, openly, it is just a channel of love, channel of goodness and generosity and giving and.

Beautiful, you know, so how many. Do you have any, like, last words? How do we, you know, how do we continue to develop this connection with our true nature, with love and manifest that is that again, love of the truth and continuing to look inside. But it also seems that love propels us to action, to actually do things.

Yeah, that, that. But also to. I mean, what this dimension shows is that it is a ground for experience. You know, we need to be humble. It brings in humility. Humble when we're not aware of that. Humble that we don't know ourselves completely. You know, the humility is very important for discovering the truth that we don't know we're not completely ourselves. You know, we're not connected completely, even though we might be connected not completely. And that'll bring more humility. And, you know, the great people are great individuals in the world have that humility in them. There's dignity and things like that. And. But humility is a very important part. You know, even the most realized will be humble.

This has been, as usual, just a. An exquisitely beautiful dialogue. And I think even, perhaps beauty applies even more here. I can't resist just pointing out that in this chapter you describe beauty as a transparent transparency to true nature.

Yeah. I think the love shows beauty because love and beauty, it sort of go together, you know, shows reality as beautiful.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, amid, you've given us a beautiful gift, a loving gift, a gift of love. I think John and I have been, as I said, been very touched and am. I can feel myself getting teary. Am touched. Are touched through this dialogue and this discussion about. About this dimension of true nature. So I'm sure it's being. Going to be very, very touching for our community of listeners. So thank you so much. Yeah.

And thank you for your generosity. I mean, being here with us.

Hopefully the light will seep into the heart of all the listeners and from.

Them, their hearts into others. Yes. May it be so.

Love will spread.

May it be so. Amen. Thank you so much Amid.

See you in a month or so. Yeah.

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