Welcome to The Talent Trade. I am Stephanie

Maas, Partner with ThinkingAhead Executive Search. Today I am

super excited for our listeners. I'm going to be talking with JW

Heflin. He is also a partner here with ThinkingAhead and a JW

and I have worked together for years. A few things that he may

not share that I think I probably should. J W's spirit

animal is the polar bear. JW also, at one point in time

recently was the strongest man in Kansas, which always brings

me a lot of comfort knowing that if we are ever in a situation,

and I have over indulged and need to be carried out that as

long as I am with JW that can happen in a safe way. So JW,

welcome to The Talent Trade.

Thanks, Stephanie. Thanks for having me. So yes, my

spirit animal is the polar bear, I think it's because I'm cute

and cuddly. Maybe if you get me mad, I can get pretty ferocious.

It is because I am hot natured. And I like cold weather over hot

weather mostly. And yeah, I was strong once. Once.

As interesting as those fun facts are. We're

really here to talk about the tremendous success you've had

with ThinkingAhead, sharing your counsel and wisdom with our

listeners. So before we dive into the wisdom side of things,

just share with us a little bit of your background.

Absolutely. It's not always rainbows and sunshine,

I've had my my bumps and bruises along the way, was hired in

November of 2015 Enjoyed it every step of the way. My first

year, was a good success that following January, earned

partner status with the company through my billings in my

production next year, increased my production than the year

after that it dropped in the year after that was the worst

year ever. So I've had my licks and bumps and bruises, basically

paid for an education in executive search that year. By

no means do I know everything. There's so much to still learn

and master and finesse in this business. And I think that's

truly what keeps me so engaged and enjoying what we do on a day

to day basis, because there's still so much to get good at.

So one of the things that I have noticed you

do particularly well is you are really a master of your niche.

So share with our listeners a little bit about your niche. And

I noticed gonna let you talk for quite a while. But the whole

thought process about being highly specialized, how have you

become specialized? What are the advantages? Walk us through

everything that being a market master entails? From your

perspective?

Great question. And I had to become a market master

because I didn't even know what my market was. When I started

when thinking I had hired me. They said, Hey, we kind of have

two areas you could focus on, you could cover commercial

banking, commercial lending in the Midwest, and I go, I think I

kind of know what that is. Or you could do this thing called

equipment, financing, leasing, and cover a national footprint.

And I go, I don't know what that is. But that sounds interesting.

Let's do that. And I go, what's equipment, finance and leasing?

You know, even to this day, I still don't know that I truly

know what it is. But But joking aside, that is the industry that

I focus in is equipment, finance, and leasing. And

recently that's expanded into more of the specialty finance

and specialty lending in the financial services world. So

you're talking project finance, sponsor, finance, structure,

finance, a lot of things that have finance after him is what

we do with it. And there's all nuances to it. In a nutshell,

it's specialty lending.

So tell us about this idea of being a market

master.

So the idea of being a market Master is just really

owning and knowing your space and being really good in that

arena. It does a few things. As a recruiter, it helps you build

confidence so that you know what you're doing. Also, as a

recruiter, and as a consultant in the space, it adds

credibility to what you're doing. Because when you're

having conversations with presidents, with Chief Learning

officers with managing directors that run multibillion dollar

platforms, and you don't have a clue what they're doing, your

credibility is nil. So the likelihood of them engaging you

to work and help them fill positions is going to be very

limited. Now look, we all have to start somewhere and we all

have to learn our markets and and learn our niches and through

that we become experts. That is where as a market master you

become very skillful and very good with what you do. So when

you have a client that calls you and says, Hey, we need a credit,

underwriter in equipment, finance, we have really

exhausted all of our efforts, we think we've interviewed 85

people, and we don't have anything. When you're a market

Master, you can make three phone calls. And those three phone

calls turn into two finalist candidates. And one of them gets

hired in a matter of two weeks, where they've spent a few months

trying to find the right person. But that doesn't happen

overnight. You got to build into that. So how do you build into

it? Well, the easiest way get on the phone and talk to people.

That is the simplest and easiest way to become a market master is

the type of people that you want to place in your industry, just

start talking to everyone build those relationships with those

people. Part of what we do is somewhat transactional. Because

we're matchmakers, we're we're trying to make plug and play

people with clients. And so we're trying to find that

perfect candidate, that's a perfect fit for that clients

that fills their need. Well, sometimes it's super simple,

sometimes it's a little bit tougher. And the only way to

figure out really what your client's needs are in which

candidates fit that is to truly know your market. So you got to

know the different positions that are in your space. And the

easiest way to do that is start talking and profiling and having

conversations with all of those candidates in those different

positions.

So put some legs under that table just for a

second, especially for some of the folks that might be newer in

the business, what do those conversations sound like?

So the conversations are really just diving into

profiling candidates, you know, the first question you're asking

them in terms of building rapport is just understanding

where they're at from a career standpoint, you know, are they

open to making a move, they could either be actively

looking, they could be passive, they could be super happy with

where they are currently at. But everyone, even if they're super

happy, there is just so much change in our world, not just

financial services and equipment, finance, I'm talking

about the job market as a whole. There's so many variables that

go into it, elections, politics, the job market, the economy,

there's so many fluctuations that it would be ignorant of

someone to not at least be wise of what's going on in the

marketplace, they can be completely contented and happy.

That's perfectly fine. But they also need to know what's going

on in the marketplace, because the music does stop at times

whether they want it to or not. And so just find out, are they

open to making a move, then from there, dive into that? Hey, what

would make sense for you? What are you doing now is that

opportunity available with where you're at. And you just start to

understand what type of positions and what type of roles

they're looking for. And then through that conversation, you

can have a follow up conversation where you dive

deeper into a lot of those details with it. Hey, tell me

more about what it is exactly that you do in your position?

What does success look like in your role, you know, as you

compare yourself to the other people that you compete with,

it's in the same title, same position, what makes you stand

out, you know, what makes you rise to the top of your field?

And what you do? And through those conversations, and through

asking good questions, you start to understand the nuances and

all the tangibles of those positions, by having a lot of

conversations, not just talking to one or two people, but I'm

talking, having multiple, multiple, multiple

conversations, you start to figure out who's a really good

producer, who's really great at their job, versus people who are

very average at their job. And you start to understand why

certain people do make the jumps that they make, and why their

resumes may show that they've hopped around quite a bit. That

just comes from multiple conversations, you can't read it

on the internet, you can't really learn it just from

listening to other people, you have to go experience and

understand that for yourself. You got to do the work.

So then you're on the phone all day having

these conversations, learning about your niche. And then to

your previous point when a client does call and need

somebody you know who to go after?

Absolutely. It allows you to have speed to the

marketplace. You know, a perfect example of this is recently

we've been talking and having these conversations that I'm

talking about the profile calls with candidates in a specific

position within my industry. We didn't have anything that we

were actively working on. So it was just a very conversation to

learn about what type of roles makes sense for them. The

logistics of it. Are they great at what they do? Are they

average at what they do? Are they open to making a move and

where we kind of left the conversations is hey, when

something comes across our desk, that's a great fit. We'll give

you a Call, well, we get a phone call from a client of ours that

says, hey, we need this position. And we got the call on

a Thursday. And we said, okay, give us a minute, we'll see

who's available in the marketplace, see who we can find

that fits all of the qualifications and criteria that

you're looking for. In an ideal candidate, by the following

Tuesday, three days later, we had six candidates that are

qualified and vetted, to put in front of that client, that speed

that's coverage on a search assignment. And the reason it

was so fast, and we had such good coverage is timing, met

opportunity. With that one, we had already been doing the

groundwork of just the daily blocking and tackling of what

we're supposed to do, and happen to be calling and talking to a

lot of those individuals in that specific position. Boom, we get

a phone call, they need those people, we go back, and we find

the best ones that we recently talked to, they already told us,

Hey, we're open for this opportunity. We matched it up,

plug and play fit, boom, we go. We had six submittals right

there for the search. And not only that, but you can, you can

always figure out how good your candidates are on whether or not

your clients can interview him. So they interview one out of the

six, you're like, Okay, I'm off the target here, I don't think

I'm disconnected. Or I'm not on the same page as my client in

terms of what they're looking for, versus what I'm showing. So

I need to ask more questions, to clarify and make sure I

understand what they're telling me. In this scenario, we went

six for six, we presented six candidates, they interviewed all

six of them. So that is why you want to be a market Master is it

allows you to be fast and quick when you have your clients call

you or when you're trying to chase down new business because

you have the database, the network of people to call into.

And you know what they're looking for.

And to what you just said, it's not just about

speed, it's about accuracy. So that perspective definitely

helps and definitely speaks to the success that you've had. I

can imagine paying one of your clients after months of trying

to look on their own through the various means that they have at

their fingertips, and then they call you and three days later,

they're six outstanding qualified candidates, it kind of

makes our fee a moot point at that junction, you're like,

Yeah, who cares what your fee is we're hemorrhaging. And you're

showing up with with the surgeon and the sutures and all the

things that we need. Let me go in a different direction. So

that certainly helps understand the success you've had you

mentioned early in the call that you've definitely had some off

years, walk me through what you attribute that to how your

market mastery helped pull you out of those down years. Speak

to that if you would, please.

Great question. So a couple of things from what I

remember. And again, this was a few years ago. And if I

remember, there was just some some wonky, unique situations

that I dealt with, with some clients and candidates and just

changes in the markets. And you know, the ups and downs of the

economy and stuff at that time. But I would say the biggest

takeaway is mindset. And that was one of the things that I

remember learning that year was two things. One is the this is

very much a mental game. I mean, what we do sounds very simple.

We just talk to people on the phone all day, we are calling

people, we usually have great opportunities. And we're just

asking people, hey, does this sound great to you, who doesn't

want to hear about a job that could improve their career

situation, 95% of people are going to be very open to having

that conversation. So we just talked to people. However, you

know, if it wasn't for the candidates and clients, this job

would be absolutely amazing. Joking aside, we deal with

people. And when you're dealing with something that is making a

change that is so emotionally involved for individuals like a

career change, it is challenging. And so that's where

one being a market master helps you be better at your job,

because you can help your clients and your candidates do

due diligence through the interview process. Now, let me

clarify that by saying we're not trying to convince our

candidates or clients to accept a position or to hire a certain

person. That is not what I do. That is not what we do. Our job

is to present opportunities and facilitate the conversations to

get their questions answered, and to find the best opportunity

for the candidate, but also to find the best candidate for our

clients that the market can bear at that time. At the end of the

day. It's not our choice. We don't care if they choose our

position or if they choose our candidate. Our job is to help

them get Get to that yes or no, in a very quick, efficient

manner. And so doing that having that market knowledge, you can

help both sides do that. You can say, hey, here's what's going on

in the market, candidates are being recruited very heavily

right now, here's your competitors that are also

actively looking for the same type of person. So if you like

this individual, and it seems to be a good fit, let's move a

little bit quicker, doesn't mean we skip steps. It means hey,

let's just try and get more of these steps done fairly quickly.

Same thing on the candidate side is if they're looking at other

opportunities, talk to him hey, what makes sense? What do you

like about that opportunity? Of the ones you're looking at? How

would you rank it? Hey, here's what I'm hearing in the market,

about this company. So your next conversation, you might want to

ask him questions around this. So you know, the full scope. And

so it allows you to provide your market knowledge to both sides.

So they can ask really good questions to know if it truly is

a fit or not. Because how many times have we heard as

recruiters from candidates where Hey, why are you looking to

move? Oh, well, when I was in the interview process, they said

it was this but when I actually started the job, it's completely

different from what they told me what the job was. That is why we

exist. That is our contribution to this process, is to make sure

that both sides clearly understand what each of them are

bringing into the situation. So there's no confusion. And so it

is a good fit. And when we do that very effectively, that's

when we have our candidates that stay for multiple years. In

addition, get promoted with the companies, we play some app for

someone who in six months, they're already looking for

another job, because we're really making sure it's a good

fit. Because we listen to what's important to our clients. And we

listen to what's important to our candidates. And we put the

two together, we're not throwing spaghetti against the wall to

see what sticks that gets everyone frustrated.

And I appreciate you sharing that, because what

I'm hearing but correct me if I'm wrong, is this idea of this

market mastery helps you to be successful. But it also helps

pull you out when I mean, let's face it, there are so many

uncontrollables in the world of search, and there's very little

that we can control or on occasion have influence over.

And either way, the market mastery significantly impacts

your success level.

Absolutely. Another thing, another idea that works

in my industry. And I would say that it probably works in most

industries. There's a few different websites that publish

press releases and publications. So I would assume just from buzz

and things that I've heard through conversations that most

industries will have some sort of press releases of, hey,

here's what's going on in our industry, here's the state of

the market. Here's the the movers and shakers, here's the

companies that are adding and growing, here's the ones that

are pulling back all the successes, because everyone

loves the publicity. So as a new recruiter, pay attention to that

stuff. And here's how it helps you, you find a press release,

and such and such company puts out a press release. And they

said, hey, great news. We just expanded our our team. And we

added these three people to our organization. And they list the

names. They list where they hired those individuals from and

kind of their background and history with it. And they're

excited to have this basically, they just have the press

release. So how does that help us as recruiters? Well, helps us

a couple of ways. There's a lot of information that's in there

if you're looking at it the right way. And so here's how you

need to look at those press releases. What that does is that

gives you automatically three phone calls to those candidates

that just moved. If you haven't talked to him before, call them

congratulate them on the new role that went to. Because what

do we just talk about? Sometimes, candidates are told

one thing in the interview process, and something's

drastically different when they get over there. And if that's

the case, who are they going to call first? Probably the person

that just most recently called him and said congratulations on

your move, because they're top of mind. So there's three phone

calls right there that you can build a relationship with, with

people in your industry. The fourth phone call is to that

client or to that company that maybe isn't a client because you

didn't place them there. But maybe you want to make him a

client because it's obviously they hire. So congratulate them

on hiring those three people. And that opens up the door to

ask them questions. Hey, great job on the on getting those

those people for those positions. How did you guys do

it? Was that people you knew in the network? Was that? Did you

guys work with a recruiter on that? You know, how long did it

take you? You know you can ask a few questions on that. But

again, you start building that relationship with them. But it

doesn't stop there. Those three people that just made a move

They came from somewhere. So there's potentially three open

positions out there in the marketplace with wherever those

individuals came from. So those are three more business

development calls, you can make that maybe you can stumble into

a search assignment where they need help filling that position.

And so in one, press release, you end up getting six to seven

to eight phone calls out of it, just by reading three names in a

company. And that's awesome. That's an overlooked, but Easy

Way on how you become a market master. And you build your

network. And eventually you get to the place where you have the

information before the press release ever comes out. And then

the press release is like, oh, yeah, I knew that like two

months ago. And that's when you know, you're like, Okay, I know

what's going on in my world. And then it's really fun to have

conversations with your prospects in your clients,

because you're seen as that expert, and they're calling you

going, Hey, what are you hearing? This just happened? Or,

Hey, someone just announced their retirement? Are you

working on that? What's going on? Who's being considered as

candidates? And those are fun conversations to have, because

you're not just the recruiter that slings resumes. You're the

recruiter that's connected with the right individuals in your

space. And you know, what's going on in the industry.

What a difference between a vendor and

a partner. All right, you ready for a little bit of fun, and

we'll wrap up?

Let's do it.

All right. Don't spend any time thinking. But do

you have your Outlook screen open?

No.

Okay, we'll open it real quick.

Okay, it's open.

How many messages do you have in your

inbox?

53,000 total. 2,500 unread.

Ok so if anybody actually wants to get a hold of

JW do not email him. All right. Polar bears are known to eat

thier young, if they get too hungry. What are the top three

foods that keep you from eating your young?

Is that a true fact? You just make that up?

That's true.

I didn't know that about polar bears.

Yeah, I watched it on National Geographic.

And I really hope that's not why I'm a polar bear

as a spirit animal, that you guys think I eat my young.

Not unless there's more children that we

don't know about.

No, no. All right, so my three favorite foods. I

would say right now anything that involves a tortilla, that

seems to be my go to craving, I can put anything inside of

tortilla and make a meal out of it. On top of that. Love

barbecue and steak and hot wings. Those are my favorite.

So you're pretty much a vegetarian, then.

Exactly. If it's if it's green, and you put it in

front of me, it's gonna stay in front of me.

Ok, the youth are at risk. Got it. All right.

Where exactly did you go to college?

Oklahoma State.

And where exactly do you live?

I don't know if witness protection allows me to

disclose that information. No, I live in Wichita, Kansas.

Okay. And where did we meet?

You and I met at Gainesville, Florida many years

ago at a awards banquet for the southwestern company.

So I just want to clarify, I met you a Florida,

you went to school in Oklahoma, but you live in Kansas. So it's

fair to say that it makes sense why I have no idea where you

live where you went to school or understand the Florida

connection whatsoever.

It wouldn't make sense. Although I believe you're

the one who has coined the phrase that good recruiters are

good listeners and great recruiters are phenomenal

listeners. So I'll let the audience just kind of draw their

own conclusions to that.

Yes, listening and retention are two very

different things.

There you go.

What do you like most about recruiting?

That's tough to kind of sum up, because there's a lot

of things that I enjoy with it. I love the flexibility that it

provides. I mean, this is truly a job you can do anywhere. And I

think when you are when you find success, and you get to that

point where you've kind of you've paid your dues,

everyone's got to pay their dues, and they come at varying

times, you know, sometimes we may have a skyrocket to success

with it. But then, like me, you get some years where you really

pay your dues, and you're like, Okay, I'm getting the full

spectrum of this, when you've paid your dues and get good at

recruiting, you're really never ever going to be without a job,

you have developed a skill set and a talent that you could take

and do anywhere. Just because I recruited an equipment finance

doesn't mean I couldn't be successful in a completely

different niche. Now, it may take some time to build up to

it, but you have the foundation to do it. And if you have the

intestinal fortitude and the work ethic, you can be

successful in it. It's just going to take a little bit of

time and heavy lifting. So I love that because it's job

security in a sense. And then there's a lot of flexibility to

it. I mean, we are all we do. We're in front of a computer and

on a phone that's it, you know, we don't have to travel we don't

have to spend And, you know, 5000 miles a month in a car,

seeing customers, shaking hands kissing babies, we don't have to

fly to a different client every other week. We get to go visit

our clients when we want to. We can go to conferences, we can go

visit them and do client visits. But that's a bonus. That's not

something that we have to do to win business and be successful.

So those are just some of the things I like about being a

recruiter.

Well, man, thank you so much for being here. I am

confident our listeners have enjoyed it as much as I have

enjoyed hosting with you a lot of incredible nuggets. Thank you

for sharing with us taking the time putting the thought in, and

from everybody here at The Talent Trade, JW Heflin, have an

awesome day.