Hi, and welcome back to the Mother-Daughter Relationship Show. I'm your host, Brittany Scott, and in this episode today I am doing another interview to discuss reconnection inside of the mother-daughter relationship. I have the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Imani Steele, and she's going to share her relationship with her mom from the beginning of it to the messy parts of it and to the reconnection and what that looked like between her and her mother. Dr. Imani Steele is a researcher, speaker and storyteller whose work sits at the intersection of identity healing. And mother-daughter relationships. Her academic work centers on the lived experiences of black adult daughters who are detached from their mothers, with a focus on advancing culturally informed approaches to prevention, intervention, and healing, and strained maternal relationships. Drawing from both scholarship and personal experience, Dr. Steele explores how daughters navigate loss. Boundaries, identity formation and empowerment in the absence of secure maternal attachment. In addition to her work, Dr. Steele is the author of a forthcoming memoir that examines grief, reconciliation and becoming beyond the rules we inherit through speaking, research and narrative work. She creates spaces that invites women to name their experiences, reclaim their identity, and move toward healing with clarity, I'm really excited to be able to bring her here. One, to share her story and her lived experience and what happened between her and her mom, because I think storytelling is such a powerful way for other women to be able to see themselves and to know that they're not alone, and to give them permission to heal through what happened to them. But also, I'm excited to bring her for her expertise and. To just learn some of her thoughts and her viewpoints on the mother-daughter relationship.

Welcome to the Mother-Daughter Relationship. Show the podcast for mothers and daughters who want to build stronger bonds, deepen their understanding and transform their relationships. I'm your host, Brittany Scott, licensed therapist and mother-daughter relationship coach. After years of working with hundreds of daughters. And mothers. I've developed strategies that help break generational patterns, heal wounds, and create the loving relationships you've always wanted. Each week I'll be sharing insights from real clients, expert interviews and practical tools you can use immediately to improve your mother-daughter dynamic. Whether you're struggling with communication breakdowns, navigating major life transitions, or simply wanna take your already good relationship to the next level. The show is for you. And yes, the transformation I guide my clients through can be yours too. I'll share more about how you can work with me. It's time to experience the relationship you both deserve. Are you ready? Let's dive in.

Okay guys, and we have Dr. Still here with us today, and I'm so excited to hear her story and allow her to just share her experience with us. Tell the listeners who you are and a little about yourself.

Yes. So I always lead with saying I am a daughter. And that is the most important identity for me, especially after experiencing all the things that I went through with my mother and living life without her now, and I know we'll get into the details later, but like first and foremost. I'm a daughter, and I'm a daughter who happens to do a plethora of things. A multifaceted daughter, if you will. So I'll first lead with being a researcher who focuses specifically on the lived experiences of daughters who have a strain or. Non-existent relationship with their mothers and specifically black mother daughters. I'm telling people like I'm a FUBU researcher, like I solely focus on black mother daughters in that dynamic, if you will. And then I also do brand and marketing strategy consulting as well. And it's been very interesting because these past couple years I feel like. I have really evolved in how I wanna show up in the world and, and earlier I mentioned like a multifaceted daughter. So taking like my corporate background in addition to my research and really just kind of doing whatever I feel led to do and doing it unapologetically. So that's a little bit about me.

I love it. Like there's not, you're not being boxed into one lane.

No, I can't be. I think I have too much to offer and I have many different ways in which I can just serve the world in order to, so I don't, or let me say it this way, so that I cannot box, box myself in.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the opportunities just open up. So more when you allow yourself to, to share all of your gifts instead of just picking one. Yes, exactly. Yeah. All right. Well, tell me a bit about your mom and who about who she is and the relationship that you guys like had starting out.

Oh, my mother, may she rest in peace. I honestly wish I had more language to describe who she was as a woman. Because I solely experienced her as a mother, and I think a lot of times we tend to forget that our mothers were hu are humans too. Like they had entire lives before we came into this world and they're still living their lives. In a, in a different capacity because they become mothers, but they're still human. Mm-hmm. And so it kind of saddens me because I can't really describe who my mom was as a woman. I don't get that opportunity because it's been almost four years since she's passed away. At the same time, since her passing, I have developed a lot of compassion for her and I had this moment a couple weeks after her service where I was just like, Ugh, okay, mommy, I get it now. Like I get you now. And that it part is like, I understand. Why you acted the way that you did towards me. Not to excuse your behavior, but I have a little bit of context because I also recognize that you were a wounded daughter as well. Hmm. And so for me, I've really been on this journey of like. Having more compassion for my mom, which might sound a little bit strange because she's no longer here. However, that's a way for me to make sure my heart is not filled with resentment or bitterness because that's no way to live and that's not a healthy way to live. And so if I were to, to describe like the. Beginning of our relationship and really like the relationship in its totality up until the last few months of her life. Stranges. Strained. We were like oil and water. I felt like I was the child. She did not like. So it's, it was my sister and I and, and very important information. So my sister and I, we have the same mother. We have two different biological fathers. And so with my mom having my sister, before she met my dad, she was a single mom and it was her and my sister. So she was very accustomed to a child, clinging to her, being very attached to her, and having a healthy dependence on her as a child would with their mother. However I came along and that was not the case. I've always been a daddy's girl through and through, and even if my father wasn't around, it was like, okay, I'll figure this out. Like I'm not gonna go to mom for anything. Like I'll figure it out. And I'll never forget, my dad told me one day that my mom mentioned to him like, I don't know what to do with Imani. Like I, I don't know what to do with this kind of child. My sister and I we're like complete opposites. My sister's more reserved. She's an introvert, very much so to herself. Whereas me, I'm very outgoing, I'm charismatic, I'm very bold and courageous, but I embodied all the things that my mother never felt empowered to be. Hmm. And on top of that, I was the daddy's girl. She also never got to be, which is why these feelings of like her, or let me say this, I'm gonna say this in a different way, which is why me feeling as though she didn't like me. Like that's where that was coming from. She, she didn't know what to do with me and I also was a reflection of everything. She was not empowered to be,

yeah. And that she probably desired in some ways.

Absolutely. Absolutely. The biggest difference between. My mom's upbringing and eye. I mean, there's a lot of drastic differences, but I had a father who advocated for me, who created spaces for me to just be and exist and explore and figure out what I wanna do. And both of them, both my parents, they supported my sister and i's passions whatever we wanted to do, like all hands on day. My mom didn't have that. She didn't have that. And if anything, she lived her life trying to. Please her mother.

Yeah.

And I don't think she ever did.

That was gonna be my next question. Did it even actually happen? It probably never did.

No. Yeah. Not at all. Mm-hmm.

Fighting a battle that really doesn't have an ending.

Exactly. And. Because my grandmother wanted my mother to be a certain way. And so when you are in a relationship or when your mother is someone that wants you to be someone that you are not, you're never going to please her. You're never going to appease her in any capacity.

Yeah. And so if you live your life trying to do that, it just, it's something that there's never an ending to it. It's like always on this battle of, what can I do next? Will this will finally be the thing that does it.

Yes, absolutely. And I believe my mom not, I believe, I know my mom felt that towards the end of her life, because she did tell, like one of her closest, I'll call them sister cousins, so one of her sister cousins that like, she was tired and she was tired of living her life for others. She was tired of existing or trying to exist in ways that other people wanted to. And so between that emotional exhaustion. In addition to her physical exhaustion, because she was an addict for over a decade, her body and her, her mind just couldn't handle it anymore.

Tell me about the breakdown also. First off, I'm sorry for the loss of your mom.

Thank you. Thank you. It's interesting because I don't think there was a breakdown. I don't think there was ever a solid formation.

Oh, okay. Of

That's the way that I would see it, see it, and then like whatever little bit we had, it was fractured even more at the onset of her addiction. So my, I realized my mom was an addict when I was in middle school. She actually came to one of my basketball games drunk. And that is when I would say like that was the beginning of the end for the family unit that I knew. And my father, God bless his heart, he was a very committed husband and so very supportive through my mom's. Stays in, in rehab and even transparently, like there were times where my mom was like in and out of jail because of whether she was driving under the influence or whatever the, the case may be related to her addiction. So during that time, I got very accustomed to not having a mom, mom. Even when she was in the home, so not in rehab or not wherever she was, she used to lock herself in our guest bedroom and she was just like a body in the house. And my dad is such a solid dude, such a solid man that like my dad, my sister and I, we just kind of formed our own routine. We had a way of doing. Things that needed to get done in the household and we, we were able to function without her. And so because I had the experience stemming from the father, which I do have, I pretty much thought I didn't need a mom. I was like, okay, this didn't work out for me. It's cool. And I used to think that God gave me like a really good dad because he used to, he knew that my mom was gonna be. However she was at the time. And so, you know, her addiction just kind of like, was like the nail in the coffin of like. I don't need you girl. I don't need you. You don't wanna be there for me. Like as long as I got my dad, I'm cool. And eventually my parents went on to get a divorce and I ended up staying with my father. So I was raised by a single father for quite some time, even before their divorce was legally finalized. And him and I have such a great relationship and I never felt. Insecure. I never felt unstable. I never felt discombobulated just being with him. I thought I was solid. I thought I was, and to a certain extent I was. But I also recognize like there is just a lot of things that a, a man cannot teach a young girl. And so, although for the longest, like I was in denial of needing a mom, like I, I needed a mom. I just didn't have that and I didn't think that that experience was attainable for me. And so, man, it took like years of even wanting to be honest with myself about like the desire to have my mommy, because for the longest I was not allowing myself to fill those desires.

Yeah. You convinced yourself that because she wasn't interested, you didn't actually need her.

Correct. Yeah. Correct.

And you had, you did get the protection of your dad and you had a great father that mm-hmm. I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a lot of daughters don't get that part.

Yeah. Mm-hmm.

And so you had this protection and you felt this love, and you did have a great experience with the other person. That probably made the, I don't need my mom a little bit easier to manage in the beginning and then until it wasn't.

Yes. And then also having a village as well between like a grandmother, which is not the same, which is not my mom's biological mother. I need, I need to make a very clear distinction when I say my grandma. I'm talking about my mom's stepmom, and we can get into that a little bit more, but that's a very. Important nuance, but her and like aunties and you know, godparents and things of that nature. I also had a solid village, so it wasn't until I got older and started living on my own and started noticing things in my own relationships and within myself that I was like, okay, you got so mommy issues you need to address.

Yeah. What was that? What did you notice?

I did not trust women. Hmm. I did not know even how to have healthy relationships with women, so like peer relationships. I was looking for the ways in which women would hurt or harm me. And I think that it, that statement in itself, like there's so much behind that because I also have to account for the fact that my dad did get remarri. And so being part of a blended family and he got remarried to someone who has five daughters. And so even going from just my dad and I to my dad and I, his wife and her five daughters. Who didn't necessarily have a solid father figure around to raise them. That was an interesting dynamic. Right? And so I realized like I just did not know how to exist comfortably around women. Mm-hmm. The opposite for men, but that's reflective of the parental relationships that I had. And then it got to a 0.1 day God was just like, Hey. Let's talk about all the people that have hurt, that you have hurt. You wanna focus on everyone who's hurt you. You wanna focus on all the women who have hurt you. Let's talk about the people that you have hurt. And I just remember like seeing the faces and like recalling the conversations and the interactions and it was in that moment I realized I was no different than my mom. Yeah, I was no different. Even when it came to like. Addictive like tendencies. Like her advice was alcohol and pills. Mine was something else. Shopping, it was overeating, it was sugar, sometimes it was sex. Right? And so once I had a realization of like the trail of destruction that followed me, I said, okay, something has to change. And then it is within that, that I said, okay. I can learn how to forgive my mom even if she doesn't apologize, because it does not take an apology to forgive somebody.

Right? Yeah.

And so I would say once I got to that point, my mom and I's relationship shifted, and I'll be honest, it was, there was never a conversation of like, well, why did you do this and why did you say this? There was never like, I'm sorry for doing this. We didn't have that. Kumbaya moment. I'm just gonna be very honest with that. Yeah, my mom, she's only apologized for like specific things, but in terms of like how she treated me and what she did and what she did not do for the totality of my life, like she's never taken accountability to me however she did with my father. And one of the last conversations they had before she passed away, he was very bold and he was like, Hey, you didn't do right by Imani. And my mom said, I know. I was jealous of the relationship that you two had. Mm. I mean, and so that, that, that's very layered here because it's like, man, how can a mom really feel that way about her daughter, especially like that's the man that she chose to have a child with. What does a, what does a father do in that situation? 'cause it's like, I'm not gonna stop being a good dad. You know what I'm saying? But all this to say, my mom could never take accountability directly with me, but she did with other people. Yeah. And I can imagine as a mom, like that's difficult to do. And so although we never really like had, like I've said, that kumbaya moment, we were able to get to a place where. I allowed her to be a mom in the ways in which she could, and she was willing to allow me to be her daughter in the ways that I was willing to, and I'm so glad we did that and we, we did the relationship in the way that was comfortable for both of us at that time. Yeah, like I don't think either one of us was in a position to have those vulnerable conversations. I don't think either one of us were, was mature enough to talk about things that had happened in the past. And I also know my mom probably wasn't ready to share a lot of what she experienced in her past, but we were able to really turn over a new leaf and, and start over. And I'm not gonna act like we were buddy buddy because we. We were not, we were much better than what we had ever been, but for me, transparently, like I felt more comfortable talking on the phone than seeing her in person. I was more at ease with texting than like being in the same room as her. Like I still had anxious feelings in my body. I was so nervous to go around her because we can't forget the fact that she was also an addict. So I never knew is she gonna be sober? Is she gonna be high? Is she gonna be drunk? Is she even gonna show up? Like all those things that I still felt in my adult life, but we were able to get to a much healthier place, and that repair slash reconciliation happened about 10 months before her passing. Okay? And the last time I saw my mom, it was Mother's Day 2022. And so I'm originally from Columbus, Ohio, so I was visiting Columbus and I gave my mom 45 minutes of my time that day intentionally. And I was actually in Columbus for like an entire week, but I gave her 45 minutes of my time because that's all I could handle.

How'd you land on that number?

How did I land on that number? Well, I, so she was in the hospital and I had to catch a flight that day, so I timed it so that I had just enough time to see her stay happy Mother's Day, but also get to the airport to catch my flight back home when I was living in Chicago at the time. And part of me is like, dang, should I have stayed with her longer? I vacillate whether I should or should have not. But I do believe everything happens for a reason. And I think the 45 minutes was enough for me because at that time I did not know it. My mom did, but I did not know her body was getting ready to shut down. And she, her body was preparing to go into septic shock. And even when I saw her in the hospital, she was, she had a lot of pain. She said she had not felt that much pain since she was in labor. So that gives, for the people who have given birth, that gives context to how much pain she was in. Yeah. And so, but. When I saw her, I, I gifted her certain things, like she was in love with my curly hair, so she was like, what products do you use? So I gifted her the products. There was a Panera in the hospital cafeteria, so I got her favorite soup, so cream of chicken and wild rice soup. And that's what I did in the, the 45 minutes I was there with my mom. And what I take away from that is the last time I saw her, I served her. In the best way I could. I served her. I honored her, and I respected her in the best way I could, which was. Very different than previous interactions Yeah. Have been when we were together. And it was such an interesting moment because when I was getting ready to leave, I thought she, I think she believed I was gonna stay longer, and she looked at me in a way I had not seen before. She looked at me like, oh my gosh, you're really, you're getting ready to leave. And she said, she said, on my, she said, I just wish if mommy wasn't so sick, I could have spent more time with you. When she said it, I was like, girl, I'm about to call you when I get home. Like it's fine. In hindsight, I think my mom knew. Knew that was the last time she was gonna see me.

Yeah, that's it sounds like.

Yes. And then a week later I get a phone call that the doctors had exhausted all options. And my sister and I had to make the decision to, to take her off life support. And it was so crazy because a lot happened during that week. Right. And like I didn't even get to go physically see her because let's just say her mother had a hand in how things were going on. At that time, and so the only update I got about my mom was when the nurse called us and said, we've done all we can do. Do you want to take her off life support?

Yeah.

And one thing that has been consistent about my mom, despite. What she did or how she acted towards me. Like she, she loved God, like, loved love God. I mean, this is the same woman when I would go visit her in rehab, like she's telling people about Jesus. She's singing Fred Hammond, like all these things, like she loved him. And so when the nurse is like, well, what do y'all wanna do in that moment? I couldn't think about her as my mother. I had to see her as a daughter of God because I could have played God, God with her life. Mm-hmm. I could have if I wanted to and I didn't. And so I asked the Lord what he wanted me to do and he said, it's time for her to come home. And I said, okay. So we made the decision to take her off life support. I think that was like a Monday, Monday morning. Monday passes, Tuesday comes, she's still alive. And I'm like, I love you mom, but like, you know, I'm waiting for the inevitable to happen. Yeah. And Tuesday day passes. She's still alive. And I'm like, what is happening there? And for people who, no, no, I was not there. I was in Chicago and this is in, and she was still in Columbus. And for people who do not know when your body goes into septic shock, like that's a lot of pain. Like granted, the doctors did what they could to make her as comfortable as possible, but it is a lot of pain going on. And I was like, what is this girl? What is this woman doing? Like, you know, we can wrap this up, you know? And I'll never forget, like my grandma, so my mom's stepmom, she called me Tuesday evening and she said, Hey, I think she's waiting on you.

That's what just went, that's why I asked if you were there.

Yeah, I think she's waiting on you. And I said, okay. And my grandma said, well just talk to her. And I said, Hey mommy. I am very proud of us. I'm very proud. We got it together and I'm gonna be okay. I said, I love you. Like you, and you can go rest in him. I'm gonna be good. Two, maybe four hours later she passed away. And so what that did for me, it was such a transformative moment because feeling like my mom doesn't like me. My mom just, just everything about me, she resist or she's resentful of to my mom waited on me. Mm-hmm. Despite how much pain she was in, like she waited on me and I was one of the last people she got to hear before she passed away. And I'll be honest, I have not allowed myself to fully feel all the feelings that come with that, and it's been almost like four years now, but every time I think about it, it makes me feel like she really loves me. Mm-hmm.

She did. And it was never about you?

No, it was never about me. And I learned that quickly. Yeah. During the preparations and the arrangements for her service, because I experienced just a slither of what she went through with her mother, which is why after the service, going back to where I started. I sat and said, okay, mommy, I get it.

Yeah. You brought up

'cause if I, oh, go ahead. No, go ahead.

I was just gonna say, you brought up a stepmom and then a, a few minutes ago you brought up her mom kind of being mm-hmm. I guess kind of in charge of things for a while until the nurse called you. So,

long story short, yeah. My mom's mother was making decisions that she legally was not. In a position to make. And the hospital, like the hospital knew that we were the next of kin. But when you have an elderly woman saying, oh yeah, she has babies, they're thinking, my sister and I are minors like our children. Yeah. You know, and you're a mom, like, regardless of how old your daughter gets, like she's always gonna be your baby, but she's, you know, she won't always be a baby. Right? Right. So that was what was going on, which is why I never got any updates about my mom after I saw her on Mother's Day that year. Wow.

But I get it. I get it. They, they didn't know. But also to me, I would have so many questions about, well, where are they? Why have they not been here to see their mom? Like if, if she's expecting these, these children and we see a woman that they know is not on a great path is probably on the path to passing, where are these children at? Like, I'd have about why. So if they're assuming y'all are kids, why have they not been here to see their mom? Are they coming to say goodbye? Like, what is, yeah. So to me there's still so much missing from there, but I understand they didn't know.

They, there's so much missing, and I ain't gonna lie. Some days I would've been, I think to myself and I was like, you know, I could have sued them. I could have been set, like my sister said, we could have, we could have been set. But you know, it just, there there's no amount of money that could make me, that could fill the void of like losing a mom or no amount of money. Could have put me in a position to forgive my mom's mother. But yeah, there's a, there's a lot of questions that I don't think I'll ever get answers to, but I have resolved, I really do with how everything pans out.

Okay. So one, thank you for sharing that, the story and, and giving us that your life and her life and how they coincide. There are a few things that stood out and I wanna bring them up because they're, they're things that I've talked about on the podcast before and like you mm-hmm. Basically shared some of the things I've taught my listeners. So one of them that first came to mind is, one of the signs of another wound if, if a woman is unsure if she has one, and just some of the ways that it manifests is struggling to trust other women. When you couldn't trust your mom. Mm-hmm. You, you struggle with other women and building healthy relationships and connections with them. Mm-hmm. And so you just kind of naturally brought that up and noticed that in yourself. How did you go on mm-hmm. To, I guess, fix that or remedy that?

Yes. So first I had to validate what I felt. And my mom is just one example, but I also have like a quite lengthy list of other examples of women who had hurt me in some capacity and not in a, like, I don't wanna, I don't wanna diminish anyone's kind of pain, but have hurt me in very profound ways. Mm-hmm. Profound ways. And so I validated that. I said, no, this person did this. Never apologized for it. This person did this, never acknowledged it. This person keeps doing this. So like that. I didn't make that up. However, I was so focused on the women who had harmed me. I never considered the women who loved me. Mm. And so I literally made a list of all the women in my life who love me, who support me, who encourage me, and the list of women, that second list of women who did all those things. It was much longer than the list of women who hurt me, so I, I physically had to see on paper like. Okay, girl, you got more for you than against you. Like, you know, you, you do. And then even saying like, against you, I, I probably even shouldn't say that because what those women did who hurt me, it has nothing to do with me. Right. And, and that's the crappy part. And it's so cliche to say hurt people, hurt people, but they, they really do. Like, that's just what it is. And so I allowed myself to. Try to understand those women a little bit more. Like, okay, why did you act that way? What happened in your past? What did you not get in your childhood? What is it about my life that makes you like, feel some type of way? And so it boiled down to compassion. Yeah. Now that took years. I'm, I've, I'm you imagine, I'm, I'm talking about it as if it happened in like days or wait. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. It took years and it's still happening because people are flawed, humanity is flawed and people are still gonna hurt you. Right. But now I have a different response. So if a woman does something that doesn't make me feel good, depending on what kind of relationship we have or the kind of person she is, I may just talk to her about it and be like, Hey. This is what, this is what you did. This is how I felt like, you know, let's just talk about it. 'cause maybe her intention wasn't to hurt me, or maybe I misinterpreted something so that, that's like the ideal thing to do. But if a conversation is not possible, I really try to take a step back and figure out did I do something to make that person react? If so, what did I do? If not, okay, what is going on with that person? Because it, it's not. Me. Yeah. It's not me. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

So the other part that I, I wanna bring up so you can, you can stay in the daughter role or you can kind of jump into the expert role. Mm-hmm. Or you can do both. 'cause I am curious about your thoughts. I don't think this is hugely controversial, but I do think there's kind of two camps on this on. Mm-hmm. I have seen other people in the mother daughter space talk about how their mother's story is not important. I'm glad you giggled a little bit and I find that absolutely mind blowing because how is her story not important? I think it's absolutely important to the story of the daughter and what has happened to her. Yeah. And that part of healing is knowing and understanding the story. There's gonna be so much healing that can't happen if you ignore your mom's story. So you already brought up, while just sharing about you and your mom that you did know that she was a daughter who got hurt. Like you did learn about her life and you were able to have some reflection and then built some compassion for her because of what did happen to her that doesn't excuse her behavior. Mm-hmm. It just gives you an understanding of her behavior wasn't about you. It's like able to separate you and her and the hurt that was caused. But basically where I'm going with this is I wanna know your thoughts on the story. 'cause I do think there's two camps, 'cause I've seen people talk about it. But if you believe that the story is important, can you share why? And then also if you sit in the daughter role in this, what was that like for you? Actually being able to kind of look back at your mom's life and build that compassion by understanding what did happen to her.

Yes. So for the people who do not think their mom's story is important, my rhetorical question is, so what makes yours important? Like, if you don't think hers is worth considering or validating, why should we consider yours or validate yours? Because you could go on to have a daughter who would say the very exact thing about you. So that's my stance.

Yeah. Okay. I, I agree.

Yes. Okay. Now repeat your second question. I was so focused on like responding to that first question. Yeah, I'm sorry. So what was your second question? That's okay.

I did ask you to sit in like the expert role, so I didn't wanna know your point on that. 'cause yeah, that part really just blows my mind that why would it not be important to this. But the second question was, what was that experience like for you to be able to look at your mom's story and consider that and the story with you and her?

Yes, it was difficult because I didn't get to hear her story from her. I had to learn it from my father. So my parents were together for 16 years and oh, I'll never forget, so my dad actually spoke at my mom's service. And which some people may be like, okay, why is the ex-husband speaking? But like my mom never loved anyone the way that she loved my dad. Right. And they were good friends and they talked in the last days of her life. And he said something, and this was kind of like a mic drop moment in a little bit of like a, don't forget who I am, kind of moment to her family, specifically her mother. And he said. I can't tell her story better than I can, but I come a close second. Mm. And so a few months afterwards, or no, not months, God time is a social construct. Afterwards, I actually ended up interviewing my dad to get to learn more about my mom, so I, I learned. How they met, what she was going through at the time, what she experienced in her childhood. So a lot of the information that I have about my mom, it has come by way of my father. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which has left me with both. Resolve and understanding, but also more questions that I just wanna ask her that I can't, obviously. Right. And then there's other people in my mom's lives too, like some of her cousins or even my grandma. So for me, I'm grateful that I can still learn about my mom because that context helps me understand it was never about me. Mm-hmm. It was never about me. The relationship that I have with my father that my mom witnessed, it wasn't about me. It was about my mom and her father wound, like that's what it was about. Or even my mom not knowing how to parent a child like me, which had different needs than my sister. That wasn't about me. It was about her being ra, being raised by a woman who had one parenting style, which was authoritative and abusive, like, you know. And so also I think we have to consider a lot of the times our mothers are wounded daughters. Now the thing is, grandmother granddaughter relationships tend to look very different than mother, mother-daughter relationship, right? So being in a position of a daughter, you may experience a completely different woman than who your mom did. Yeah, for sure. Right. And so for some daughters, they can't comprehend their sweet, caring grandma being a mother who was less than what their mothers deserved. Mm-hmm. They can't comprehend. Yeah. Now some of us experience it like I did, and I'm like, oh, okay. All right. I probably would've drank too, but. All this to say, the short answer to your question is, for me, learning about my mom's story reinforced it was never about me. Yeah. And it also has me thinking about what are the cycles that I wanna stop Yeah. In my whole life so that I don't pass it on. Yep. Yeah. Because a lot of times we do things and it's not even like us. It's something that we've inherited and we get, we get into epigenetics and you know. Mm-hmm. There's spiritual implications, all those things. Right. But a lot of the, the weight and the burdens and the pain that daughters experience, it wasn't powers to begin with. Right. It wasn't your mom's. We were just, it's part important. Yeah. Exactly. And then even for us being black people, we probably could trace it all the way back to slavery. Yeah, absolutely. Because that's a whole nother conversation. Yeah. Right, right. So not only does it, having context can help you heal, it also can put you in a position so that the ones who come after you experience something that is more loving, caring, nurturing, and less traumatic than what we did. Yeah.

So to just like, just add to what you said. 'cause I agree a hundred percent. When, when women set out to say, I'm not gonna be like my mom. I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna do everything the opposite of my mom, or I'm not gonna turn out like her. But then there's no intention behind it. They end up turning out just like their mom and it's not absolutely because they didn't try hard enough and it's not because they weren't good enough, it was because our brains develop when the biggest amount of time when we're children. And it's developing under being mothered by the mother that hurt you. Mm-hmm. So when you don't reach your brain to do something new, it can only resort back to what it knows and what it knows is what your mom did. And so when there's a gap there, when it's like you wanna do something different, but you didn't give your brain some new information, it's gonna pull in the information it already has. And that's what happened in childhood. And I, that's the part that so many women. Miss because it's like, I'm gonna do the opposite of my mom. Okay girl, I'm glad, but what is that gonna look like?

Yes, exactly. And do you even know how those behaviors show up for you? Yeah, because like, let's just be logical about it. Okay. So let's just say a daughter, you know, has stayed and was raised by her mom for 18 years. Mm-hmm. Okay, those are 18 years of you knowingly or unknowingly picking up patterns, picking up behaviors, picking up ideologies, picking up attitudes, all these things. And that doesn't just go away like that. No. That is 18 year history of you being shaped in form like your mama.

The biggest brain development.

Yes, exactly. Exactly. And although it may not come up the same way that it did with her. It is still in you. Yes. How I mentioned before, like, you know, with my mom's addiction, like I wasn't popping pills or drinking, but I was addicted to other things. Yeah. I had other addictive like tendencies and vices in other ways. Right. And so I think for daughters who are healing, it's so important for us to not get so self-righteous or so prideful to think that we are so much different or above our mothers. Because the reality is you are an extension of her. Yeah. Mm-hmm. You are, sorry, like emotionally, genetically, all those things, like you are an extension of her. So it's going to take a lot of self-awareness and reflection to understand what are those behaviors and those tendencies that you picked up, and how are you going to modify them. Yeah. And then I would also challenge daughters like. Everything isn't bad when it comes to our mothers. It may be very hard to see the good, but it's not all bad and I think we focus so much on like the bad and the bad that we inherited that we don't even consider the good.

Yeah. I try to describe that as like, think of like when you're in a track relay race, there's a baton that's being passed when it's next runner's turn. And I'm gonna bet when, when the baton got passed to the daughter from the mom, there was some patterns that were broken. She probably did some things different than her own mother did. It just wasn't enough. And so there was still harm that was caused to that daughter and mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And now the baton is in the daughter's hand and she's gotta do the next handoff. That may to her own daughter, maybe that's Denise's or the, the younger girls that she just happens to be around the baton is gonna be handed off. And so what has she broken? And one of the things that I want people to just dive deeper into, which is why I do so much of like storytelling is there mm-hmm. On social media, the, the huge discussion is I'm the cycle breaker. I'm a family cycle breaker and I love it. And I mm-hmm. And I think it's great and I want people to hold onto that, but. When people talk about the cycles, they're breaking, they're all repeating the same things. I'm like, I'm glad we're not spanking kids anymore. Thankful it doesn't need to happen. I'm glad we're apologizing to our children. Yes, they deserve that. I'm glad we're not yelling as much. Yes, our children deserve that. But what happened in your family? What is your story? What is specific to you that you're breaking? And a lot of people are not talking about that. Everyone's just telling the same overarching big story path. That's true. I'm like, what? What happened in your family? What is the story? And without those stories, everybody's just gonna talk about the same things and then I'm gonna bet I'm, I'm just waiting on it. And I'm, I say this as a parent, I'm waiting to see what our children are gonna say. Because we are all these cycle breakers and we're all doing so good and we're all breaking the same cycle. I wanna know what our children are gonna say. What did we get wrong? What did we not pay attention to? What's actually not being broken? Because no one wants to pay attention to the story. And it's like, y'all are missing, we're all missing something. And so I've already told my husband, when my daughter comes to me and says that she's in therapy, I'm gonna ask two things. Do you want me to join or do you want me to pay? Mm. I want to be there. I want to fix it. I want to acknowledge where I went wrong. 'cause I don't expect that I'm gonna get it all right. And also I want right for the therapy that she may need, but I want more people to focus on. I'm glad we're cycle breakers and I'm glad we're doing the work, but what's the story? Because something's being missed if we're all breaking the same cycles because we don't know have this free.

Wow. That's very powerful. I never thought about it in that way. Never thought about it in that way. And the more I'm reflecting on it, I wonder if this generation is as aware and emotionally intelligent as it claims to be.

I think we are more than our parents. Mm-hmm. But I think what we're doing is we're all attaching to each other. Mm-hmm. And so we're all telling story. Hmm. Versus really paying attention to what happened in our individual families. Some of the outlines are the same, like the spanking and all, like the things we're doing. Yes, we all experienced it, and so we know to stop it. But like for you, very specifically, the addiction, I don't have that experience of addiction in my family. That's not something that I have to break, but you recognize how it transformed in you. And so if you don't know the story of why that even happened to your mom and then why yours presented differently. How will you start? Maybe a new present, a new present presentation? If I can get my words out, A new presentation in a daughter, if you have one, like if we're not paying attention to why this forms and what's specific to our story, then we're gonna miss some things. And then we basically did repeat a pattern. We just didn't notice it. And also, part of your story is your mom putting herself in a room, locking herself in the guest room and not coming out. Y'all went on about life without her. Other people don't have that story. And so not paying attention to the storyline, we end up breaking cycles that everyone else is breaking, but it's not the cycle that actually needed to be broken for you.

Hmm. That's good stuff. That's why I don't have much of response because I'm like thinking like, okay, like what's more in my story that, yeah. I need to address.

Yeah, so that's part of like for me, like what I teach and how I help women. And I love that you went to your dad and your mom's cousins and other people in her life to learn about her. 'cause I have sent some clients down that same path. I'm like, okay, you don't have your mom to ask the story to either. She's no longer here, or the relationship is so severed that you can't, I've sent them on Quest to ask other people. And so we filled in the gaps with other people's stories and that is still just as powerful. There's still a lot there.

Absolutely. Because even like getting some things is better than having nothing. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. And it's also very interesting hearing your mom's story from other people's perspective, because I don't know if my mom would've told it the same way. Right. As my dad.

Yeah. And then the cousin, and then you know the other people. Yeah. You're getting so many different sides of her. Exactly. Mm-hmm. I feel like we could keep going for like another hour and I'm such, I'm such a yapper. I'm like, we could talk about anything. Right? There's so many angles. We could take this. This was good. Yes. Yes. Thank you so much for being open and sharing your story.

Of course, of course. I think it is like. One of the ways in which I advocate for, for black daughters and, and black mother-daughter relationships, I'm finding, I do believe that there is a greater desire for black women in our community to address these things and, and heal and not be so quiet about what they've experienced. Uh, also recognize some people just don't have language. Right. And even if you have the desire to be free and to heal, you may not necessarily have the environment or the people to empower you to do so. And so between my research and even sharing my own story and heck, even my mom's story, like my desires, that women just feel empowered to address their, their story, their mother wound head on, so that they can be transformed and heal.

Yeah. And with these series and with the whole, like the entire podcast, that's my goal too. I wanna provide language, I wanna teach women to take this step. If this resonated, this is the step to take. And this is, you know, the next one to do. So I also wanna provide language and help women to know that they're not alone. Like there are many stories out here, and maybe you'll hear yourself in one and know what you could possibly do next, or just feel empowered to do something about it.

Yes, absolutely.

Is there anything that you'd like to leave the listener with? Is there a final statement or just something that they can take away from this feel good or provide a next step? One thing you. Worthy and deserving of love and esteem. Yep. I don't think there's anything else to say after that. Take that with you guys. Well, that is what I have for you today. That was the interview, and I personally think that was so good. So I really hope that you got something out of that and was able to take something away. Dr. Still touched on many things that I talk about and that I have shared with you guys already, together, we already discussed the topic of knowing your mom's story and being able to break cycles through that story and understanding the lineage in the women that you come from and how very important that actually is. She also touched on the struggles of trusting other women. I have an entire episode about. That very topic and how it's a phenomenon that happens and how it can be so devastating to women trying to create new relationships when they struggle to trust other women because the experience they got from their mom and maybe some of the other women around them. She also discussed jealousy in motherhood and maybe some of the jealousy or envy that her mom experience that maybe there weren't words for before, or maybe she didn't have the words to express that, but just how she felt about. Dr. Still having the relationship she had with her own father. So that theme came up. There are a few themes in there that I have discussed with you guys and I have shared about and have talked to you about. So I hope you were able to make some of those connections and see how those things come up in real life stories and how these phenomenons are a thing and that they are happening and that everyone's experience is different. But also there are some overlaps and there are some things that are the same, but I hope that you are able to take something away. And that any of this resonated with you or really touched your heart, thank you for being here and for allowing this space to flourish and for being a listener and a watcher if you're watching this on YouTube. But thank you for being here and I will catch you guys in the next one. I.