Welcome to the Faith Based Business Podcast with your host, Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

On this podcast, we interview fellow entrepreneurs who are willing to share their stories, their trials, and their triumphs in business, all in an effort to help you avoid the same obstacles and to achieve success faster.

But at all times, continue to rely on our faith to see us through to victory.

Now with today's guest, here is your host, Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

Hello, everyone, everywhere.

Pastor Robert Thibodeau here.

Welcome to the Faith Based Business podcast.

We are so blessed that you are joining us today.

Can faith and capitalism really work together?

It's a question a lot of people ask today.

Are they mutually exclusive to each other?

Well, the answer may surprise you, and our guest today is going to explain why.

Amen.

I'm honored to have Rich Sanders, host of the Christian Capitalist podcast, join us today.

Rich is a pastor, a small business owner, health care attorney, retired adjunct professor, and a former Navy intelligence officer and founder of Good Works Missions.

He stays busy.

Amen.

He's also the author of the Christian the Gospel of Hard Work and Generous Giving.

So get ready for an inspiring conversation about faith, work, and generosity.

Praise God.

With that being said, help me to welcome to the program Rich Sanders.

Rich, it's a blessing to have you on the program with us today, brother.

And thank you so much, Bob.

I'm so glad to be here.

God bless you in the ministry that you're doing.

I'm just so delighted to get a chance to meet you today and talk with you about these important topics.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, the first question I always start with is this.

Other than that brief information I just shared, can you tell us in your own words, who is Rich Sanders?

Rich Sanders is a follower of Jesus, blessed to have a terrific family here in Northwest Florida.

We live in a town called Destin, right near the Gulf of Mexico.

My wife Rebecca and I met at church and have been married now 28 years and are just thrilled to have three beautiful children, all of whom are in or just out of college, and a giant golden retriever named Cowboy.

And all of us are here together for Christmas in the next week or so and having a great time celebrating God's love for us in the form of his son, Jesus.

Amen.

Amen.

Praise God.

Now, God bless you newlyweds.

I tell you.

I mean, my wife and I just celebrated December 9th was our 48th here.

Whoa.

All right.

You look pretty good being an old guy, Bob.

That's right.

That's right.

That's the anointing that's the anointing and camera.

And camera technology.

Right, Right.

I want to say as we get started, I appreciate your military service, and I was an army cavalry officer as we were talking before we hit the record button.

But I always make it a point just to acknowledge my fellow veterans whenever I get a chance, because it's a unique calling and not everybody is comfortable doing it.

To me, the military service, one of the highlights of my life, and I just.

I just enjoyed it.

I'm right there with you, Bob.

We didn't even get a chance to talk about this, but I was so delighted to get a chance to serve, even though I was only in the Navy four years.

My father was career Air Force, so he was in for 26 years.

And like you, had a similar path prior enlisted, then got his commission.

My brother and I grew up in the military and so have a very deep respect not only for military service members, but for the families that also serve and make their sacrifice.

So just this past Saturday, in honor of the Army Navy game, we had our annual event called the Armed Forces Bake off, where we get our friends and family together and bake a bunch of goodies to send out to military service members who are.

Well, you'll appreciate this as a former army officer, you got to have two requirements to get goodies from us during the Armed Forces Bake off, which, by the way, we do during the Army Navy game, get everybody fired up for the end of football season.

In that awesome event held every year between army and Navy.

You got to be two things, active duty and oconus outside the continental United States.

So I just took them over to UPS yesterday.

We're sending out boxes to Japan, Kuwait, and somewhere in the Middle east for Air Force security.

We're not sure where, but we got the APO address.

Amen.

Praise God.

That's good.

That's good.

Yeah.

We're not talking too much about the Army Navy game today, so.

Exactly.

That didn't do well for army this year, but last year was a different story.

I just threw that out there.

We'll acknowledge it.

So.

Amen.

Praise the Lord.

Let's start with your book, the Christian Capitalist.

Why did you write this book, and what was your motivation to do with that?

Bob, thank you so much for asking.

You know, the timing of this book, I think, was really important to me.

God called me to write this book right after the Congress passed a law back in the previous administration which changed the tax code so that the.

The charitable deduction might be affected.

And so I Was like, oh, man, I hope this doesn't impact giving.

And at the same time, I'm thinking about giving and people's motivation to give.

I started thinking about this kind of wave of academic literature and theology since World War II that has encouraged Christians to believe that you cannot be a Christian and a capitalist at the same time.

You know, here where I talk to so many small business owners around the nation about this title, I get two responses.

And I gave it this controversial title for this reason.

Some people hear the title Christian Capitalist and say, hey, that's me.

I'm a small business owner.

I'm a business executive in a big Fortune 500 company.

But I bring Jesus to work with me every day, and I try and use my business to love my neighbor like Jesus commanded us to.

But a good half of the people I talk to say, wait a second.

Either I didn't think you could be both, or there's no way you can be both.

In fact, there's some recent literature from very, very prominent academic professors of theology and business who say the best way to be a Christ Christian is to be a socialist.

And so with the change in the tax code back in 2018, with this kind of movement against capitalism and frankly, the declining population of Christians around the nation, I thought, you know what?

This is time to kind of stand up for both Christianity and capitalism in a way that makes both look better, makes both more favorable to those who are not believers and those who are not espousing free enterprise and to encourage those who are of the mindset of, you can't be bothered that they're contradictory, that you can as long as you use the benefits and the produce of whatever you're working on to benefit your neighbor.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

So why is that important for believers today?

Well, let me tell you.

I think there's a couple of implications.

The first is it's important for believers because as church membership declines, I don't think the number of followers of Jesus is declining.

I think people in response to the Gallup surveys or the Pew surveys are simply saying, I don't go to church anymore.

A lot of people respond by saying, I'm spiritual, but not religious.

The message of Jesus for 2000 years has been unchanging and clear that we got from the Gospels, right?

And his own words.

But the way people interpret them has changed dramatically.

And so people follow Jesus now they are Christians without going to church, and churches are starting to close down, and the kind of the traditional denominations are changing really rapidly.

So this was to Encourage folks to say, hey, you know what?

You can be a follower of Jesus, and even if you're not going to church, you can take your beliefs and take that message of love with you wherever you go, especially at work.

Because when we work, we glorify God.

So that's the first implication.

The reason I also wrote it for believers is, man, some tough lessons.

Let me tell you.

As we talked about in the introduction, I'm a pastor, and when I.

In our service, in our liturgy, I read the Gospel every Sunday, even though we have volunteers to read the other parts of our lectionary service.

When I'm reading Jesus saying to the rich young ruler, the only thing you have left to do to inherit the kingdom of heaven is sell everything you own and give it to the poor.

And I'm looking at the members of my congregation, some of whom are financial advisors who are wealthy because they help wealthy people get wealthier.

I can see the look on their face, and they're like, what do I do with this?

And we wrestle with those kinds of concepts in the book and ultimately conclude, yeah, if you're rich, that's great, but God made you rich for a reason, and that's to help your neighbor who's poor and needy, regardless of what that kind of.

That poverty or need looks like.

Yeah, too many people are just focused on getting more instead of using more, I guess you could say.

Indeed.

And that's why the motto of the Christian capitalist is, the more we make, the more we give.

You know, I got to tell you, I've wrestled with this all the time.

I mean, I'm retired from practicing law over 28 years and now live in a beautiful house on the beach in Destin.

I'm looking out the window here at a nice car in the driveway.

Does having a nice house and a nice car make me a bad Christian?

You know, these are.

These are important concepts, because I was just telling somebody at a Bible study yesterday, if Jesus walked through this door right now and said, rich, you just talked about what I told the rich young ruler.

I didn't stutter.

Sell everything you have and give it to the poor.

I would say, I'm sorry, I got it wrong.

But I really do believe that if we have any kind of means, any kind of means, that we have to share it with our neighbor, that we are good stewards of what we have and that we're good stewards of what we give.

Amen.

Amen.

I know a lot of Christians struggle with balancing their faith and their ambition.

Right?

How should Christians view wealth and success in light of today's society.

Well, let me tell you, that's an outstanding question because it really comes down to what success is.

If you believe in these concepts of the more we make, the more we give, and that by working hard we glorify God, and that by giving more we glorify God, then success takes on a totally different notion.

The theme of the book, Bob, is from 1 Timothy, where Paul is writing his kind of Chief Lieutenant Timothy and telling him about how to build the church that he's left Timothy in charge of.

And in 1 Timothy 6, Paul tells Timothy, tell the people who are rich in the present age not to be bragging, not to be haughty, but to be ready to be generous and sharing good works.

Because ultimately when they do that, when they benefit their poor and needy neighbors, they're storing up for themselves treasure in heaven.

And most importantly, that Last part, verse 19 of chapter 6, is they're putting themselves in a position to enjoy the life that really is life.

So when you look at it in that context, success is not a nice house or a nice car or a big fat IRA account.

Success is how many people can I impact with what I have and follow the commandment of Jesus to love my neighbor wherever they are and whatever their.

Their situation is?

Amen.

Amen.

Yeah, and.

And just, I just like to point out, 10% is 10%.

We'll just use the tithe as the example.

10% is 10%.

If you only make $25,000 a year, 10% is 10%.

You make $250,000 a year.

Your 10% goes a lot farther, but it's still 10%.

That's exactly right.

And that's why the.

So glad you talked about tithing, my friend, because to me, the more we make is a concept that goes beyond tithing.

One of my best friends here in Destin is somebody that I met by eavesdropping.

He and his friend were over in one part of the gym working out.

I'm in another part of the gym working out.

And it just involved me kind of moving past them as I was doing this exercise.

And they had just had a men's Bible study the day before, talking about tithing and giving.

And my friend said to his friend, you know, I think tithing is just a suggestion.

If you get more, you should give more.

I'm like, we need to talk, because he gets it.

But I will say, furthermore, that there's this new.

And we address this briefly in the book.

There's this New trend among very, very wealthy, ultra wealthy folks, the elite of the wealthy class in America, billionaires, basically, that have signed the Giving Pledge.

Have you heard of the Giving Pledge?

Briefly?

Yeah.

So research on it.

Warren Buffett, Bill Gates, you know, this kind of level of money.

And the pledge is that I, as a very wealthy person, am going to give half of my estate away.

And that's a lofty thought, right?

When you look at the tithe at 10%, and then you see these people who are ultra wealthy giving away 50%, that's a very laudable goal.

And I'm certainly not going to criticize that, because it's a laudable goal that will ultimately benefit people.

The issue that I have with it, though, is if you wait to give your money away until you're dead, you deprive yourself of the joy of giving.

And furthermore, Jesus tells us, love your neighbor, go forth and love them as I have loved you.

You can't love from the grave, right?

You got to do it now while you're alive.

So that's the only issue I have.

I would love to see those folks who made this magnificent pledge to do it while they're around to benefit people, direct the way that they're giving and love their neighbor.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, how can believers reconcile pursuing success while maintaining that spirit of humility and generosity?

That's a good question.

So when you look at success in terms of the more we make, the more we give, then you're simply saying, you know, by making more, I have the opportunity to serve more.

One of the first guests on our podcast is a Roman Catholic deacon in San Antonio who, like you and me, served as an officer in the military.

He was a hospital administrator in the Air Force.

He served with my father in Italy in the early 80s.

During his time in the Philippines in the late 70s, he had a chance to interact regularly with Mother Teresa and learn from her.

And the lessons that he got from her are just outstanding.

This is episode one of our podcast.

If you're able to go listen to it, I encourage you to.

And she, Mother Teresa told Dan, his name is Dan Dan.

And Dan's message was, Mother Teresa grabbed him by both hands and said, dan, every single person is called by God to be someone special to someone else.

And so when you think about striving and ambition and success, I encourage folks not to think about it in material terms, but in the number of people that you can be special to, you know, I.

I just.

I love that notion there.

And there are folks that.

That we see.

And we're interviewing, and I'm sure you have talked to over the years that say, man, I'm just blessed to have this much because now I can impact more people and, and spread the love of God to others.

Yeah.

Amen.

I, I've said for years, you know, there's.

Everyone is called to be in the ministry.

Every single person.

You got those who are called to go, those are the pastors, missionaries, all that, those that help, those that go, the support staff and things like that.

And then those that finance those that go, you know, but every person is called in the ministry.

Yes, that's exactly right.

And furthermore, I'll say this because you raised a great point a few minutes ago when you were talking about tithing.

It's 10% of whatever you make.

One of the most important concepts because we talk about capitalists and a lot of people envision the Monopoly man right, in the top hat, the monocle, the cane and all of that in New York on Broadway.

But Jesus tells us in the story of the widow's offering or the widow's mite, that as all these rich people are parading into the synagogue with their fine robes and they're making this contribution to the sanctuary, that the widow who comes in and gives two coins, which together aren't even worth a penny, has given more than everybody else because that's all she had to give.

That's a core concept of our movement, that anyone could be a Christian capitalist.

In fact, one of our most devout and best examples of a Christian capitalist is a woman who just gives so generously.

And she's a waitress at a restaurant here in our community, doesn't have a fabulous home, a fabulous car, doesn't make a ton of money.

But man, every single day she's thinking about how to give.

In fact, the other day she called me, we had a cold snap.

Cold snaps here in Destin are not like cold snaps in Baltimore, by the way.

Let me just go ahead and throw that out there.

Yeah, that's 65 degrees.

That's cold down there.

Exactly.

But she called me up and said, pastor rich, I made $900 yesterday.

We had a super busy day at the restaurant.

I want to take it all and go buy blankets for the homeless because I know they're cold.

Isn't that wonderful?

And that's a perfect example of what we're talking about.

It doesn't have to be nine figure income and giving away millions.

It can be just something that small.

Amen.

Amen.

Well, your work spans multiple fields I mean, from pastoring to business ownership to law, how has these diverse experiences shaped your perspective on living out the gospel through working and giving?

That's a great question, man.

I appreciate that.

So when I was actively practicing law, I was also in the church.

In our church, we call that bivocational ministry.

And so when I'm advising people on legal issues, I would approach this.

These kind of complex corporate.

We didn't go to court, did corporate and regulatory work.

But I would approach these deals as what's good for both sides.

How can we do this transaction or resolve this dispute?

By solving in a way that's good for both sides and that will leave a relationship intact.

On the ministry side, of course, that practice of law and interacting with people through business very much involves informed the ministry so that I can help folks who are in trouble in their business or struggling with corporate or employment issues in a way that's not only spiritual but tangible.

But I'll tell you, for this particular issue, the Christian capitalist, it really hit home just yesterday in this Bible study.

One of our members of the Bible study was asking, okay, because we were talking about 1 Timothy 6 and these verses 17 through 19, when we talk about enjoying all the blessings that God has given us, do we really own them or are we just stewards?

And what is the difference between stewardship and ownership?

And the short answer is in many ways they're the same.

We think about this as my cup, my laptop, my shirt.

But these are blessings that God has given us, and when we're gone, they go to someone else.

And so we may own them for a particular period of time, but if we don't take care of them, if we're not good stewards of them, no one can enjoy those things after we're gone.

And that in particular goes to land and real estate.

You know, we were talking about how, yeah, you may own it for now, but when you die, it goes to someone else.

It's just the way that things go.

I had an accounted friend of mine who put a very fine point on it.

He said, I've been a lot of funerals.

I've never seen a hearse with a U Haul trailer behind it.

That's right.

You know, can't take it with you.

You founded Good Work missions.

Tell us about this program.

Well, this verse that we keep talking about from one Timothy is a theme all throughout the New Testament.

And that is doing good works and loving your neighbor.

And so my wife Rebecca and I, as I had finished the book and gotten the manuscript written Started talking with other authors about what's the best way to get this published.

And across the board.

And this is no knock to any of your listeners who work for publishing companies, but across the board, what I heard from other authors was publishing companies offer you a raw deal, including some that are church based or church owned.

And so Rebecca and I said, you know what, we're entrepreneurs.

Let's start our own publishing company and have an author friendly model that we think supports people not only in writing to inspire others, but to inspire others to do good works.

And so we entitled our publishing company Good Works Mission.

And I got to tell you, Bob, I'm so thrilled.

Not only was the Christian capitalist able to hit number one on Amazon's bestseller list, but our second book just came out two weeks ago.

It's a children's book written by my friend Michelle Fritsch, who's a pastor in Atlanta.

It's a kid's book that kids can read when they're a little older, but ideally at the outset is meant to be read by a parent or a grandparent to a child in the lap.

It's called you'd're a Child of God.

And it hit number one on Amazon just last week.

Isn't that wonderful?

So Good Works Mission is a little publishing company that's got some oomph to it.

And I always tell folks, Thomas Nelson had to start somewhere.

That's it, that's it.

Baby steps.

Praise God.

Exactly.

Exactly.

Your podcast is the Christian Capitalist podcast and you share stories of individuals embracing this ethic we've been talking about.

Do you have and can you share with us a particularly memorable guest or story that exemplifies these values?

Absolutely.

So Dan Kearns, the Catholic deacon I was talking about, who passed those lessons along for Mother Teresa, is a great one.

But the one that jumps immediately to mind is a friend of mine from my high school.

I went to high school in D.C.

in Washington, D.C.

when my dad was stationed at the pentagon.

It's called St.

John's College High School.

It's a Lasallian school.

So it's founded in the tradition of St.

John the Baptist De La Salle and run by the Christian Brothers.

Terrific school.

At the time where I went, it was all male, Catholic and military, and since then is now co ed and the military is optional, but still going strong.

And I just love the ministry there and the way that, that they educate young people.

My friend Chris Stevens graduated from St.

John's 10 years before me and went on to a terrific career in business.

And now is a business professor at Notre Dame.

So he's teaching young people and MBA students how to be good Christians in business up at really the biggest Catholic university in America.

So when I interviewed Chris, I was so delighted to get a chance to talk to him.

Not only is he one of the co founders of Keurig Coffee, and so every time someone has a cup of Keurig, they can thank Chris and his partners who got that venture started, but now he owns a business with him.

He and his wife own basically a private umbrella fund that invests in, the last time I Talked with him, 14 smaller companies, all of whom have a good mission that they believe in.

And they have pledged to give the profits that they have from their portion of that to charity.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Isn't that wonderful?

So even as a successful business owner, he's trying to help other small business owners and then from that help the poor and needy.

It's exactly the kind of thing that we talk about in the book.

Amen.

Amen.

How can businesses that are being led by faith driven entrepreneurs create lasting kingdom focused impact in their communities and beyond?

Oh man, I'm so glad you asked that.

I mean, because that really is the heart of the matter.

It's a twofold focus.

The first is internal, internal.

You know, so many people in 2024, as we head into 2025, people are going to be listening to this episode, I think in January of 25.

So many people now across America think, I can't talk about my faith at work or I'll get in trouble with hr or I can't talk about my faith at work or I can't, I'll offend someone.

Right?

But the internal focus for small business owners is simply projecting that message of love, broadcasting that message of love, shining the light of Christ to those that you work with and those who work for you and letting them know that you are a believer.

And you don't have to do that by having a Bible study every week.

You don't have to do that by putting messages on the wall.

You do that as a concept that you and I learned day one in the military.

Lead by example.

Amen.

Lead by example.

And you show others how you're a follower of Jesus in your business, just like you show them you're a follower of Jesus when you go to church.

That's the thing that I've been learning more and more about as I've written this book.

And I'm now talking to people all over the nation.

If you limit your worship of God and you glorify God only one hour on Sunday week, you've missed the whole point.

You got the rest of your life Monday through Friday for many folks.

Even more.

You can't just check Jesus at the door when you go to work.

So it's about helping your coworkers and the people that work for you when you go outside.

When you go outside, the focus of a Christian business has to be not just on generating product, generating services, and generating profit, but then on what you do with that profit.

There's this concept that really hasn't gained traction in popular kind of business culture.

But about 15 years ago, a couple people wrote books and articles about philanthro capitalism.

And that's kind of the point, but that's a secular way to put it.

Basically, we say that if you're a Christian business owner, or if you're an executive and a Christian in a business, you got to find a way that in whatever business you have, whatever business you own or maintain, that you got to find a way to love your neighbor through that business.

And that really depends.

I mean, for some.

So here's an example.

One of my favorite Christian capitalists that I met this year who was a little hesitant when I asked her to come onto the podcast.

So I'm not going to mention her by name, but I will say that her business is called the Beagle Bagel in Madison, Mississippi.

And she's just a terrific, terrific Christian.

She makes bagels and breakfast and brings joy to that particular community through delicious food and a high quality, high quality experience when you go there.

But on a regular basis, she's giving food away to the poor and needy in that particular time.

When I met her, we had a relative of my wife's in the hospital in Jackson.

She said, oh, since you're going to the hospital, take this big tray of bagels to the nurses at the nurses station.

Isn't that wonderful?

And so no matter what business you're in, you can figure out a way to love your neighbor through the work that you do.

It's up to you and how God calls you to do it.

Yeah.

Amen.

Amen.

It doesn't have to be financial all the time.

It could be service.

I mean, you know, we had a neighbor, lady, cross street, died several years ago when we first moved into this house.

You know, every time we went to the store, I go knock on her door, you know, do you need anything?

Can I pick up anything for you?

I mean, just, you know, that Was a.

That was ministry.

There was ministry.

Exactly.

And, Bob, it doesn't have to be financial.

Oh, I'm so glad you said that.

So just yesterday I was visit or two days ago interviewing a guy named Chris Barnes on our podcast who's a financial advisor.

But the best and kind of most gripping example he could give or that I took from our interview was his act of generosity to someone in need, and it involved no money at all.

He said, I had a friend who had cancer, and because of the type of cancer he had and the type of treatment he was receiving, he lost his sense of taste.

And so Chris said I would call him regularly and just check in on him.

And when he told me he'd lost his sense of taste, I was like, well, can you taste anything?

And the guy said, yeah, but the only thing that I can taste now is ketchup.

And so Chris got on Amazon and ordered four of those big kind of containers of ketchup with the pump top like you have at the ballpark and sent it to him.

And the guy sent him a thank you note that said, basically, thank you.

You've shown God's love for me and changed my life.

Isn't that wonderful?

Do four big bottles of ketchup.

It really doesn't take much, like the Mother Teresa said, to be someone special to someone in need.

And I will furthermore say you mentioned that elderly neighbor that you had.

One of the most kind of overlooked categories of need that I see, especially now in 2024 with so many young people who are still struggling with the impact of COVID and the lockdown is loneliness.

We have an epidemic of loneliness in our country.

And so Christian capitalists can show their love for their neighbor without ever touching a dollar or touching a credit card, just by giving time to those people who are lonely.

Amen.

Amen.

That is so good, Rich.

This has been so interesting.

I know someone may have a question or they like more information.

How can they get in touch with you?

How can they reach out and connect with you?

So we have a website called ChristianCapitalist Life.

This life suffix on websites is new and I just love it because we want people to live a Christian capitalist life.

Christiancapitalist life.

And we're on all the social media channels and all the podcast channels as well.

If you look up christiancapitalist Life, though, you can send me an email.

I'd love to talk with you, especially if you have stories of people who have worked hard and given generously to the poor and needy.

We'd love to talk with you or whoever you'd like to send our way and keep spreading the message of God's love for us.

Amen.

And I take it your book is available on Amazon, I think you mentioned, correct?

Yes sir, the book is available on Amazon.

You can also buy it@christiancapitalist.com life and just a quick plug, by the way, when you go to that website, my friend Michelle, who wrote you're a child of God that's been so successful as a kid's book, also wrote our discussion guide earlier this year.

So it's a 20 page PDF right there available on our website for download.

And it's perfect for teachers who are in Christian schools or who have a morality or philosophy class in a public school.

It's perfect for teachers to to want to use the book in a classroom setting and perfect for Bible study.

So we want to encourage folks to use it and because there are so many concepts in there that are worth discussing with your neighbors and friends, to use it in that setting because there's a lot in there.

Amen.

Praise God.

I'll put links all this down in the show notes below.

I appreciate that, Bob.

Folks, if you've been inspired by Rick's insight richest insights, I encourage you to check out his book the Christian the Gospel of Hard Work and Generous Giving and explore how you can live out these values.

I mean, visit the links in the show notes to connect with Rich, listen to his podcast, subscribe to his podcast, Praise God.

Hallelujah.

And take the first step towards impactful faith driven living.

Praise Jesus for all the technology he's made available.

Do that today.

Amen.

Rich, thank you for taking the time out of your schedule to come join us on the podcast today.

Man.

I do appreciate it.

My pleasure, Bob.

God bless you.

I'm so glad to get a chance to meet you.

Amen.

Folks, that is all the time we have for today.

Rich Sanders myself passed by reminding you to be blessed all that you do.

You have been listening to the Faith Based Business Podcast with Pastor Bob Thibodeau.

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Until next time, be blessed in all that you do.