I wanna ask you something before we start.

Matt, are you.

I am in general, but not today.

Uh, which is okay.

it's okay not to be okay.

Some days

we've had another project looks like fall over.

So I'm okay in a sense of like, everything's going great.

I've got a new little girl and she's, um,

a unicorn.

Let's just say that she's sleeping 10 hours a night.

So sorry to all those newborn parents that aren't getting that.

Um.

So I am in general.

Okay.

Uh, just today's a crappy day.

But look, sun will rise tomorrow.

do?

You know what I love?

that you did there, Matt, is that you kind of, you zoomed out for a second.

You know, 'cause you can get so caught up with like what's in front

of your face and get so bogged down with like a shitty day or a shitty

client or a shitty staff member and it can completely derail everything.

And yet your default there was, you know what, I've had a shit day today,

but I've got all this other great stuff that's happening in my life

and I dunno if we do that enough.

we're joined today by Alistair.

this is coming out in A week that we are gonna talk about.

You're gonna hear it a lot through media and social media.

Are you okay?

Day?

Um, to me every day should be, are you okay?

Day, we're allowed to celebrate it more than anything on one day.

I think it's the 11th of September.

Am I

Yep.

Yep.

Cool.

So Alison, you are an ambassador for, are you okay?

That's correct.

Do you wanna give us a bit of an overview of like, what, what is, are you okay day?

It sort of came out of the Larkin family and, Gavin, who, who just decided he was

gonna do something about this after having some personal aspects of his life, you

know, with, with things like suicide and, um, there was some illness in his family

with his kids and he even had illness himself, which actually was quite tragic.

but, uh, I guess the, the movement there was, there's a moment.

And it was kind of mid nineties where Gab just realized there wasn't lot of people

talking about things like suicide or just mental health in general, you know?

And, um, it was all very stoic, quite macho, whatever.

But, and, and he's sort of being the person he was and I didn't really know

him, but, but I know his family and, and, and just sort of when we're gonna

do something about this and, I guess the beauty of what he's probably put

forward or what the, the organization's come is just the grassroots.

Um.

Sort of that informal aspect of just checking in with people and just trying

to, just to try to create a message around that, you know, and 'cause, uh, and,

and you know, they say a conversation could change a life or save a life.

And, and it's, it's true.

You know, so I, I kind of gravitated to that.

personally, I think it's just good to look after people.

I do it for my work.

you know, things like life saving, I don't know.

It's just, it's good form to take care of yourself and, and other people.

And I just like that this is a very grassroots.

organization that just focuses on people talking to people.

Um, there's all the other aspects like, black Dog, lifeline Beyond Blue, that sort

of stuff that are probably more technical and specialist care, but there's a hell

of a lot you can do on the ground level.

Just people talking to each other

But they do all do great things.

That's the

oh, they do?

Yeah.

But for different, different, um, different moments.

You know, like any medical issue, um, you know, sometimes you need

a physio, sometimes you need a surgeon, and, and it's, it's.

That's okay.

But, you know, a lot of the heavy lifting, well not the heavy lifting,

but can happen on a, at a very, uh, fundamental grassroots level

Yeah, so we have a psychologist that comes on our podcast regularly.

Um, Julie, and she probably had a, it was probably one of the first few

episodes, Amy, where she made the question about, like, I asked a question.

About, is it okay to ask someone, are you okay?

And her comment was like, well, someone's got having a heart attack.

Do you ask 'em if, are they okay?

Do you wanna get a doctor?

She's like, what's the difference with the brain?

And it was just like, yeah, like what?

What?

Why do we not ask if it's okay?

Do you have any maybe thoughts or

Yeah.

Yeah.

No,

into that sort of conversation?

We've actually got some fresh research that has come out and that sort of stuff

that, you know, three and four people actually agree that it's important to

ask someone, which I think is quite interesting because all they agree and

in a lot of ways they sort of say it's a good idea to do it, but only one in

three people feel comfortable doing it.

So even on that, if you look at those sort of numbers, you're thinking,

okay, most people want it, but not everybody feels they can do it.

you know, things like, um, invading people's privacy, um, I don't wanna say

the wrong thing, it might make it worse.

Um, don't wanna embarrass them, don't wanna judge them.

And, and I, I, I think even personally early on is, you know, something

might come up that you can't handle.

You know, someone might.

Put a fair bit out in front of, and you think, well, I, I don't know

whether I can, I can solve that.

You know, so sometimes people feel they need to get in there to

solve the problem which is not the case, you know, it doesn't have

all have to be the case, you know?

and even, even I think in a very human way, not all of us sort of have the

confidence to, to rock up and say, how are you, you know, because, I don't

know, there's a bit of a step there.

There's some social risk aspects and there's some cues in it.

It's, it's not a, it can be really quite a, an emotional conversation.

Um, and I think that can be really tricky to turn up.

So my thing is, it, it takes more guts to turn up than not.

And, um, yeah.

You know, and that's, but it is, I totally respect people

that sort of have that moment.

I've never, like, I can only per personally speak from my own, um,

experiences here, but every time I've asked someone, are they okay?

I've never ever had someone come back and get angry at me for

Yeah, no.

Yeah, yeah, you're

So, but

if they're okay, they, they'll say, yeah, I'm,

one of, one of the other things to really, to, to kind of sit in for a

second is that you said, know, it's not up to you to solve their problem.

You know, I think, I think Simon Sinek says it really well.

You know, quite often you just wanna sit in the mud with

them, you know, just be there.

Listen to them, you know.

Let them just tell you what's on their mind and, and you sit there and just

listen to it and actually not think you need to solve it because, you know,

I, I'm a builder, mats to builder.

You are a, you know, risk management person, lifesaver father, whatever.

You know, we're not necessarily trained to solve this problem, but.

Actually just sitting there and listening to someone and, and, and being that

facilitator of that, that release of pressure or stress could sometimes just

be that moment that that person needed

cause if you look at the, there's, I mean there's a very, it's, it's

not a script, but it's a pretty well-worn path that are you okay.

Come up with?

And it's like how to have that conversation, which is like,

you ask how you're okay and then you sit there and listen.

We call it the Alec, A-L-E-E-C, Alec.

So you ask and you listen.

But the third part is what you're talking about there is

you encourage action, right?

And then, uh, later on you check in.

You know, so the encouraging action, um, I almost see it.

Working at its best when you're a linker, you know, because the thing is like if

you need a psychologist, for example, or if you need some help, they're

not often at the barbecue, you know?

But you are.

Yeah.

So this is, how do you find these people?

Um, don't, you know, there is a difference between finding and locating

and, you know, connecting and solving.

It's a different thing.

So I kind of almost see them as a catalyst, like a

someone who connects people.

And you don't, you encourage action, um, as opposed to having to take it yourself.

So that's probably, I believe, are you okay when at its best in some ways is just

turning up and, you know, as you say, ham, you sit in the mud, be real, be authentic.

' but you know, you don't wanna, you don't wanna sit in it forever

and you wanna say, well, okay, let's, let's get something done.

You know, what, what do you want to do?

What works for you?

And then connect them in and, um, hopefully they take some action.

But even just as you say, home, it's just allowing the problem to be shared.

Does release pressure.

often somebody who just can understand or at least acknowledge,

uh, what's going on can be enough for some people, to be honest.

They can sort of think, okay, well I'm, I've got enough energy

to go and do something else.

Yeah.

Going back a year and a half.

The reason Hamish and I started this podcast was to touch on two

aspects of what we considered really important in construction,

and we do have building businesses

in residential construction.

One was to.

Talk about building better and how we can improve the building stock

in Australia and educate tradies and builders and homeowners and

professionals about how to build better.

The second was the mindfulness side of things, thus why we

called the Mind for Builder.

But there's a real shocking statistic that I have come across before, and it

is the, that the construction worker is more likely to die by suicide

than it is by a workplace accident,

which the industry loses on average 190 people.

Per year, which is equivalent of someone taking their life every second day.

that's why it's so important for our industry to talk

about it.

'cause predominantly it is a male dominated industry

and men typically don't.

Or are not the greatest.

They're getting really good at it, at

talking up, and it's, it's, I'm probably sure in your 12 years of doing this,

you've seen a huge improvement in

males speaking out.

Um, but how do, how do we, how do we further grow that?

How do we get more people to talk up about this and be confident to not have to rely

on someone to come to them, but they can go to someone else and say, Hey, I'm not

feeling great.

if you can't talk about something, you can't solve it.

So that I, I just think that's the first point is to get out there and just start

talking about something and the other part is, is that, and I think maybe

it's even generational, you know, that, you know, males are stoic and, I mean,

I've watched enough movies of how to be tough and, and all that sort of stuff.

And, and you know, apparently I had to run around and do everything

and be everything to everyone.

And, but it's not all, it's not the case, you know, because I, I think,

you know, if you look at mental health statistics, particularly with, with men.

It's really high.

And you know, if you look at suicide statistics, it's exceptionally high.

And so, and those are statistics.

What I mean by that, they're real.

It's happening.

So you can either not talk about something that's happening or you can't.

So the the fact is, is people are starting to talk about it.

So that's the first thing.

And it's okay to talk about it.

And then I think as you do more of it, Matt, you, you sort of start to go like,

oh, that wasn't as bad as I thought.

You know?

Yeah, the first one's the hardest, isn't

yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's, yeah.

Same with children, you know, but it just.

Thanks.

Well, so, but you know, it all renovations, but it, it's, um, it,

it feels like giving birth, but it, look, I think, um, what, what what

is important is to destigmatize it and actually just make it fluid,

you know, and, and it, it's okay.

It's okay not to be okay.

Which I think is is alright.

You know, and there's a lot of statistics and, and the more you just talk about it,

the softer it comes, if that's all right.

So,

before, before we actually got on this podcast, you're talking

about how you're involved in improving culture within business.

Now we talked, you just sort of spoke on the subject of like the macho

culture of sort of older generations.

How about when we talk about culture, how about cultural differences?

Because in some cultures it might not be, be very frowned upon

talking out about this.

And the reality is the construction sector is a very multicultural

profession.

Um, how, how do

we.

Maybe navigate that space when you might have someone from a different

culture who that would be seen as very weak, potentially speaking

out, because I feel like that's a conversation that I've never had to have.

How would I go about that?

so I say that's fine, that's fine.

But you, you kind of, at the end of the day, what are you trying, um, to do?

What do you want as opposed to what have you already got?

And, and one thing that I'm pretty passionate about is safety.

Um, which, you know, might sound weird, but you know, and

safety tends to get a bit of a compliance lens on it all the time.

Worried about, oh, will I get caught?

It's not about people, it's about lawyers.

A lot of the time, and I'm probably a bit outspoken on that, but I think,

you know, all safety is, is, is preventative maintenance for your asset.

You know, which is your body and your mind.

And, and if you look after it, you'll make more money.

You know?

But at the end of the day, how you do that, I don't mind.

So, you know, if people want to have these beliefs about certain

things, I have no worries.

But at the end of the day, if we're all trying to be safe and that belief

doesn't support it, they're not, I, I don't believe you should keep it.

You know what I mean?

I just think if it's counter counterproductive.

To, um, the mental health of somebody, you know, and what might be okay there,

but it, it, it, it's, it's kind of what you want and what your standards are.

And then, you know, not trying to steamroll to say you've gotta be

this in a cookie cutter, but you find a way to deliver this standard.

You know?

And I think a lot of businesses are now saying, well, yeah, no, it's

not okay to bully and harass people.

It's not okay to, to do this sort of stuff.

And, um, you establish that standard, which is great.

There's a lot of legislation around that, for example, with psychological

safety and, and now we've got it and we just move people towards that.

But what I will say is not, not like you gotta give yourself away or your culture.

And I usually find a little five or 10% kind of massaging of, of,

of what we normally do is enough.

You know?

And, and that's kind of really important because I, I think sometimes I say,

well you gotta to change a culture.

It's like wholesale, no.

It's not, it's actually just about these things here are important when

we all need to do this, you do it.

But, but again, this is the standard we need to uphold.

We have standards all through, um, you know, Australian standards on

construction, all this sort of stuff.

This is just another standard.

And usually that's standards around behavior, you know.

And, um, you know, we also have now have a standard on, on looking after each other

with mental health, and we establish that.

We work to it, you know, and you can drive that through legislation, but I

think it's more effective in community.

But yeah, you do get a lot of different approaches.

I've seen and heard some people say some quite incredible things over my time.

Um, and they usually say it because they just, that's

just what they've always said,

that comes down to everything, right?

Like education or your environment comes down to, you know, how

you then respond that you are a product of your environment.

And if.

I'll use the example of like the little bubble that Matt and I operate

within, and that's the sort of high performance sort of construction space.

We kind of look outside of that little bubble and look at all these people

who aren't building the way we are.

And we know that it's a better way to do it, but they don't know about it.

They're not educated by educated by it.

So it's all about coming in and educating them on how to build better.

And there's a slight on a, um, step back to something you said before.

You talked about psychological safety.

Could you just explain that, uh, in a little bit more depth?

Because it is a new term that is very relevant to us as business owners.

You've

just stolen all my question notes.

No, he probably does that a lot.

Matt.

I do.

I just, I look over and look at 'em when we're, whenever

You know, pla Plagiarism's, the old form

I've literally just deleted like five of my questions.

'cause you just, I

I know.

Well, you

you Ham.

you thought your questions are so good, they're now his

I'm going home.

by, by, um, sort of definition, psychological safety is, um, the

management of interpersonal risk now.

So that's kind of the definition.

It's the risk between people.

And, um, you know, I guess so if you look at a hazard, particularly as

something that can hurt you, right?

So a nail can hurt you, you know, or a bit of equipment, well, uh,

people can hurt you and opinions can hurt you, and behavior can hurt you.

Is that right?

So it's now looking at, um, or what they call psychosocial risk.

So, you know, a hazard leads to a risk, so they're managing that risk between people.

Okay.

Um, and because if you look at it the other way, people can get.

Hurt, which I guess in this case would be trauma.

and people, um, need to take a bit of time off work, or they need some,

um, you know, some help, professional help to help them through an injury or

what they call a psychological injury.

Yeah.

and I guess my, my sense is, is, or my, my thing is, is if you

could go a culture that's sort of supportive and positive, then you can.

Lower that interpersonal risk, you know?

And what comes with that is there's risk between people.

I better not say that to them because they might say this, all this sort of stuff.

So, uh, you know, indicators are low levels of trust between people.

Um, I dunno whether I can trust him with that information.

I dunno whether I can say that to that manager because he might respond this way.

All that sort of stuff.

I guess probably why it's more topical is now it's legislated, right?

And it's legislated right across the indus, uh, all states, um, that

you need to manage psychological safety on your site, just like you

manage any other risk, um, they've actually outlined, which is good.

Like I think it's about 15 or 16 different hazards.

Um, it's all in the code and, um, you know, but it's things

like bullying and harassment, um, things like, uh, work overload.

Under load, lack of, um, lack of control of your job.

Um, ambiguity and uncertainty, things like this, but things

that put pressure on your mind.

And I mean, it's interesting 'cause I do a lot of work in mindfulness and, and, um,

understanding the nature of mind and, um, you know, it's your podcast in a sense,

but a lot of people just aren't aware of those things that place pressure on their,

on their mind, and even how to manage it.

So like the things that we do is like emotional intelligence regulation.

Um, we work on mindful awareness.

These sort of things, you know, but that, that's why, so I hope that answers it, but

it's, it's really now a mature aspect is we're looking after the physical safety

of people, but also the mental safety, you know, so mental health being, I'm not

healthy mentally, which means I'm kind of injured or I'm not a hundred percent.

Um, I guess psychological risk is probably a little bit more

acute, if that makes sense.

So, but anyway, it's um, pretty well the number one claim.

And I think, I think I saw some, um, Yeah.

So if you wanna, if you wanna talk business and you wanna talk,

um, dollars and cents, in some ways it makes a lot of sense.

Not to psychologically into your, you, you save and sort of people

say, well, how do I do that?

Well just create a culture where there's respect and dignity and,

and I think, and, and I also create a canal, a culture where it's okay.

To, to, I mean, talking about this, but it's okay not to be okay and be

more inclusive and less judgmental.

Some people say that's a bit soft.

No.

Um, I've seen some sites that do it fabulously, which have fantastic banter.

You know, it's, if anything, it's kind of brutal in some ways, but there's

always from a caring or supporting place.

And, um, yeah, so it's not, it's not a soft thing.

It's more just an inclusive thing,

I'm gonna try and talk through this carefully 'cause I'm, I'm gonna be

really, I'm, I'm nervous about saying this the wrong way, so I'm gonna

apologize in advance to everybody if this makes me sound like a dick.

But I'm gonna say it anyway 'cause I'm sure there's a lot of people, but

I'm probably thinking the same thing.

If we think of like pain as a tolerance threshold.

Right.

So we've all got different, I know one of my sons has a much higher pain threshold

than the other son that I've got, right?

I would say mentally we probably, as people have different thresholds of

what, whatever we feel like impacts us or what hurts us, I know, I understand.

Like, we just want to be good to each other, right?

We wanna treat each other like human beings.

But, you know, and, and again, I'm not making any excuses for what the industry

is, but you know, we are predominantly men and, you know, we have a history

of, you know, I guess ribbing each other, you know, because it's a bit

of fun and it's a bit of whatever, and all, a little bit of banter.

You know, some people might be impacted by that.

Quite severely, even if it's just a bit innocuous and just, you think

it's sort of just workplace banter.

Yes.

How do we navigate that when some people might be severely impacted and

other people are just like, well, what?

Just water off a duck's back because it's not visible.

Like a cut on the arm is a cut on the arm.

Right.

If you cut your arm with a, you know, a cut on you and a cut on

me and a cut on, Matt's the same.

Right?

It's, it's, it's a, it's a visual injury.

I mean, I dunno what I'm trying to say

here.

No, no, I,

it's very clear like you've actually worded that really well.

people say, I've got a lot on my plate, right?

So there's your plate, right?

And, and here's the load coming on the plate, and when it goes over the

edge of your plate, it gets messy.

Yeah.

Right?

So here's the plate, here's the load.

Here's the mess.

Right?

So if you, and I guess how do you know someone's being overwhelmed or is a

little outta control or overloaded?

What would you say you see in people?

Stressed.

visibly stressed.

Yep.

Yep.

They're

What does that

I, I,

How do you pick that up?

well, it's a hard

one because like I, for someone like myself, like I, I can

hide it very, very well.

Like, but I've got people that I know that like, put any of

my stress onto them and who

that would be, ah, crumbling

So, you know, either way I find it, it, it usually, um, 'cause it,

you know, kind of there's character and there's outer character is

maybe another way of looking at it,

Yep.

know?

And, and there's some people I believe that have got a plate about

this big and there's some people have got plate that big, right?

And why have they gotta plate that big?

The answer, which sounds a bit, you know, cop out 'cause they do.

Yep.

Some people haven't, um, experienced, um, as much as other people.

Um, they just haven't, and they've actually come to your

workplace with the plate they got.

Right.

And I don't, I don't judge that plate.

It's just the plate you got.

Right?

So you've got some options here because if this is happening,

I'll give you an example and I do a lot of leadership coaching.

You go and put some more on that person.

What do you think will happen to the load?

Oh,

would just

There's more overflow, you know?

So here we go.

Here's the pa. You know, I think about, here's the pasta, here's

the plate, here's the overflow.

Right?

And the overflow is messy.

And it can be very traumatic when people get emotional, right?

So I just sort of see emotional outta character, this sort of

stuff as an indication that people aren't coping with what they got.

'cause we all have a mental capacity, right?

How much we can shove through.

And some people have an incredibly high threshold for ambiguity and uncertainty.

Some people can, um, I've met mining guys that, you know, they

get sacked and they, they laugh and go, okay, I'm gonna get another job.

And then I meet other guys that, you know, will while around and

go, oh my God, what's gonna happen?

You know, they just, same problem.

Different response.

Yeah.

So I guess what you can do is take pasture off the plate, you know,

or take load off that person is one solution, but that's less work.

Or less, whatever it is.

And that's, you know, sometimes legislative, they're trying to do that is

to make sure to speak to people properly.

But things happen.

Um, when someone's overflowing, I guess, get someone else's plate to

help help you, you might be in trouble yourself so someone can step in.

And, and one thing I would also say, it doesn't happen every day,

just like you've said, Matt, you have your good days and bad days.

There's days where you overflow and there's days you're not.

There's days where your kids get to you and there's days that they don't.

Your spouse or whoever, you know, so it it having an perspective and having

some infrastructure to help you there.

But I, I actually third part is, um, is building a bigger plate.

So I guess what's interesting if, and that's, that's something to think

about, I guess, is how do we build, um, some people call it resilience.

Um, but you know, I, I guess another thing that's proportional,

plate size is acceptance.

You know, how flexible are you?

If you wanna talk about, there's your mindset, how, how much of a fixed

mindset or growth mindset have you got?

You know, and what are you doing about that?

But anyway, if you start to see success or coping with load and things like

that, is this ability to grow your plate in a, in a functional way.

You know, you can functionally do that, you know, so having systems

and, 'cause what I see leadership as is, is the ability to grow people,

uh, see management as the ability to manipulate people rightly or wrongly.

Um.

You know, management's probably more outcome focused and leadership

in some ways is process focused.

Build, build good people, and they do great work, you know?

Um, so that's, that's one way I sort of try and frame it for people because

once you frame what you're trying to achieve, you can usually get it done.

Um, but I just also wanted to sort of say there, you can actually in your own way,

Matt, or maybe, you know, but just detect when, when people are just a little outta

character, they might be a bit quieter.

Um, they might be, I don't know, a bit more aggressive.

They could be stress, they could be talking about things.

That's also hard on a building site.

emotions.

Yeah.

You

hard.

It's hard on a building site.

'cause sometimes we

might not see that team for a week or,

and, and you miss it or you like it was for a few days and all of a sudden

they've spoken.

Yeah.

but you, you and then some, no one wants to speak up because

it's the first year apprentice.

Like, that's where it can get really, really challenging.

it is.

And, and you just touched on another point, is that That

silence, you why they would do that.

You know, why don't they have the courage to speak up about things?

'cause they're managing that interpersonal and social risk.

Can you see that?

So like that when you have really high levels of psychological safety,

people speak up because it's okay.

You're not gonna get, you're not gonna get reamed out, or Oh, I'm gonna

get offended and stuff like that.

Trying and, and that does take time in some sense to,

to build that level of trust.

One thing I would say, bud, if you, if this is my thing, I mean,

I've been a business improvement engineer for many years as well,

and you know, if you improve the safety, you improve the business.

But if you focus, if you have a focus and I want to achieve this, then usually you

can find a solution, if that makes sense.

I mean, you guys build, you want, you want build something that does

this, you figure out a way to do it.

So if you wanna build a plate, you refine a system to build it, you know?

But one thing I would say is just.

Realizing that different people have different capacities.

You know, they have different levels of when they overflow and when

they don't, and then having systems to catch that EAP are you okay?

All that sort of stuff.

But even in the long term, how can we help people cope with

ambiguity and stress better?

And that's probably hard for both Hamish and I who probably have a

very big plate that we can deal with.

And then when you've got someone, I'm not saying we have people that do that,

that have a small plate and you're like.

I think what Hamish is sort of saying is like, just fucking deal with it.

Like that's, that's, that's probably, that's that's the, the old way of

Yeah, you can, you can.

But if they're not already, it's kind of absurd without being harsh.

But that's kind of, I, I just think you are not coping with the amount

of load, so why don't I give you some more load or some more judgment.

So,

that's also what peak companies do to move people on too, is

Oh yeah.

overload them

You know they can do that.

Yeah.

I don't find them to be terribly mature businesses in some ways, but I just think,

you know, and, and this is somebody who's worked in some pretty heavy industries

for many years, empathy might sound like a soft term, but it's, it's effective.

Right.

Most guys would appreciate more empathy than not.

They actually just respond better, even though we have this sort of perceived

belief or image or story that's out in our culture sometimes, but when you

actually get to the grassroots, and I have a lot of these conversations.

It goes down better.

I was just about to say, you know, and Matt, Matt is probably right,

you know, the plate that I generally operate off, I would say is pretty big.

But I will say sometimes that big plate is a fucking small plate as well.

on different days.

I might not have slept right.

I might be at a sync with my exercise.

My diet might not be as keyed in as it as it what it has been, and

sometimes the plate that I was operating off yesterday is the plate.

I'm opera.

Operating off today is like half the size and it's probably important,

probably important to note that.

I know I experience that, but it's also, as business owners, we need to know that.

Our team experiences that too, because something that they might have been able

to just show up and get done one day.

They might respond completely different the next day,

they shouldn't do that, you know?

But look, I've had, I've had a 2-year-old and it's evidence what

worked today, didn't work yesterday.

And I'm like, what happened?

I thought that was the key, yeah, you know, we have lots of

occasions in other areas of our life where the, the target moves.

Yep.

But what I, what I would say, and, you know, even you guys in that mindful sort

of space, having some sort of awareness of that, being actually aware of what's

happening as opposed to what you think should be happening is quite important.

having done a bit of this work myself, I, I just think I get further.

You know what I mean?

And if you're gonna manage people and you've got this problem, which has

statistical proof, listening to people and moving in this space tends to be

just more effective, if that makes sense.

I'm not, we're talking about getting stuff built or getting things

made, or getting stuff done right.

Whatever gets it through the pipe quicker.

Or gets the through processes better, why not?

You know what I mean?

So that, that's what I, I kind of get into.

And a lot of people say, well, that's not the way to do it.

I just find it more effective, to be honest.

And, one thing I would say is if you do focus on that aspect and know that

it changes you, you can see it better.

Does that make sense?

You know, I don't know.

One thing I was just gonna respond to you, Matt, is sort of how do you build it?

You know, like how do you go to the gym, right?

If you go to the gym and you're not very fit, right?

Do you go and lift a hundred kegs?

Go for it.

Try to

Yeah.

And then hurt yourself and actually injure yourself.

So here's a concrete milkshake, harden nut, and get on with it.

It's probably a hundred kegs for someone.

Five kegs might be all right.

But the thing is the goal is a hundred, but often we don't have

the time to invest in people.

And I get that.

kind of absurd also to think that everybody's gonna be psychologically

fit or physically fit every day.

You guys would've seen lots of backs in your day that one guy

can lift and another guy can't.

I dunno, not every, not every mind is rated at the same lifting capacity.

It's a good

point to take hold.

I feel I haven't

really thought about the whole plate situation before that.

Uh, everyone has different plates.

I guess the, the genesis of us having a chat today is about, are you okay Dave?

And I mean, I think that I'm pretty empathetic and I'm, and I'm pretty

good at checking in with people.

But even us having this conversation right now, I've written a few things down in my

little notepad here of three people that I definitely need to check in with, and

they're all, they're my staff members.

Um.

And if I actually think about some of the things that I've, conversations I've

had with them, the pressures they're under at work at the moment, and I'm

kind of putting this pressure on them and then kind of stepping away and

not really thinking about it, but just having this conversation with you today.

Like I need to sort of circle back and really checking in with 'em and say, Hey,

I know we had this conversation yesterday or two days ago, just checking in to

see how you're going because I don't know what that person's thinking now.

In my mind, I'm thinking we've set our peace and we're, you know, we're

working, you know, everything's all good, but how are they?

And same with, you know, a couple of my supervisors who are under an incredible

amount of pressure to hit a couple of milestones over the next three days.

And I'm, you know, they're kicking ass on site at the moment, but I'm

just, I guess almost taking it for granted that that's happening and not

kind of closing that loop and saying, Hey, I just want to check in and thank

you there is a point to all this.

We're talking about this one day in September, right?

Um, and, and I love the fact that it's just this yearly reminder, but how do we

integrate these

it's meant to be Hamish, but now I don't know if it's got, but on the back

of my shirt it's got ask every day.

So, which it sounds, yeah.

Well look, you know, at least we've got one day that we just have, you know.

And they have days for everything.

And, but you know, we're having one day where we're talk, but look,

we're trying to integrate because, you know, if it doesn't fall on the

11th September, you're in trouble.

You know, what you're talking about there, Hamish, is like a control loop.

You know, if you were gonna, uh, look at a, a, a, make sure that the

quality of construction, of the, the house you're building or whatever you

build, you know, you'd probably go and have a look at it a few times.

You probably ordered it to check.

It's okay.

So, and the word I'd use is that it's up to standard, you know, so you, and you

might, it sounds weird, but I do a lot of, for example, like safety interactions

where I'll watch a job to see whether that job's up to standard for someone's back.

I just watch them and say, okay, that could probably do their shoulder

as opposed to that there, if I don't get that concrete poured, it

could fall over later, you know?

So it's whatever the problem you are looking at.

And then I also, if you've got a little bit of a lens on.

This guy's a bit emotional.

I'm just gonna check in as you say, you might, it, it's funny you mightn't find

anything great, just like any sort of inspection on an, an asset, you know?

But, um, you might check in and find something,

And you know, you can't fix anything that's not on the radar.

So if you don't look for it, um, and I'm not, and, and this is probably

a little harder conversation than what we're talking with are k, but.

You, you do.

Most people pick up on stuff, you know, and, and, but what I'm

encouraging, or at least, you know, it just takes some action in a, in

a soft and sort of empathetic way.

And you'll probably get somewhere, you know, and I really, you can

diffuse a lot of this stuff.

You can sort of nip it in the bud before it grows to be something

a little bit more, you know.

But as you say, there ish, high pressure situations, um,

the overflow is pretty likely.

Another way I like to put it is like a pipe.

And you're trying to shove things through a pipe.

You put too much pressure on it, they crack.

So emotional re I dunno if you know about pressure regulators.

That's how I explain it.

If you've got a lot of pressure on, you need to regulate, uh,

until you get a bigger pipe.

So if you want to talk about emotions, talk about pressure.

'cause pressure on a pipe, you know, the squeeze on the side of, uh,

of the pipe is probably the best analogy for emotion I can give you.

I mean you, you go into organizations and you help them with change and you

help them with safety and you help them with, um, optimizing the workforce.

What are some of the things that we can do, and I'm not saying try

to find that point where we're.

Finding that crack in the pipe.

how do we better understand the abilities of our staff members and our team?

I, I firstly think it needs to be important, right?

As you say with Simon Sinek, start with why, you know?

And a lot of people just don't see safety as important,

Do you think the industry has moved that way?

Because it's potentially, there's been like too much paperwork and too

uh, yeah, probably.

Yeah, I, I

just see, I have my own personal opinion on that, but if the paperwork's not

helping your back or your shoulder, then I don't see it as safety paperwork.

Yeah.

as compliance paperwork and which we, we do all have to manage a legal risk.

I have no problems with that.

And I'm not trying to be contentious because if you do

that, you tend to do that as well.

But again, at a very base level, Amy, she's talking about why, why

you'd wanna be safe is because you wanna look after yourself.

actually this might work, but I talk to a lot of people.

I think I've trained probably close to 18,000 people anyway, the number

one thing I sort of say, what's the number one reason you go to work?

Spend money.

And if I do guys on night shift, it's 0.1 second.

It's like money, right?

And, and the number one reason why do you need the money is it's life, right?

You, you need petrol and fuel for your life.

Yep.

And the number one reason your business probably wants you to

go to work is to make them money.

Is that all right?

Yep.

don't sell houses for free.

If you did, you could come and work on mine, right?

Because it's getting expensive anyway, but if you think about it, what do you

think your number one financial asset is?

Personally?

Yourself

Now?

Yourself.

Yeah, yeah,

it's most people's house,

house, you think it

No, no, no.

I think people

would

mostly, yeah.

Yeah.

It.

It's

Why do you think, is that more important?

Is that worth more money or you back.

No, no, it, I'm, I, I agree.

I'm just saying I think most people think it's like their house.

Yeah.

Or they or super or something like that.

But your ability to earn money is your number one asset, number one asset.

Because if I turned it off today, there is no house and no super, there's no interest

and, and or your ability to retain a job.

And the easiest, probably the quickest way to lose that is

to have some sort of injury.

And then the next thing I'd ask, and you might be able to tell me on

a building site, what do you think the top three ways for somebody to

have a permanent injury would be?

Or an injury that they're off work for six to 12 months.

So one is

psychological

Yep.

Psych, psych is up there now.

over lift, like lifting too

Lifting, rated, rated shoulders and

yeah, and

Fall from height, fall

fall from height or dropped objects.

Yep.

Or vehicle movements.

So that's what I start there, you know, fingers and manual, you know,

but start with that sort of stuff

Yeah.

because, um, if you want, all safety is, is preventative

maintenance for your asset.

If you can get that through Amy, you know, if you get the why, right?

Then you go, okay, I need to physically make sure your asset

doesn't break down your body.

Right.

Because it's important, but also gotta make sure your mind doesn't break down.

It's important too.

And that's, if you go back to simple things of

Just

Yeah.

Like if you are not okay.

Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah.

So if you're not, okay, you might be about to break or crack, you know?

I think, um.

You know, there was a, a term the other day of silent cracking there.

There's a lot of pressure on people at the moment, and they're kind of

cracking, but they don't know, you know, and unemployment in some areas is

really not, not as good as it was, you

I feel that in our industry right now.

I

Yeah.

So there'd be a

lot of

people

on eggshells.

with mortgages and stuff, and I'm not, I'm very conscious of talking

about this, but there, there's pressure, there is real pressure.

And, and I think just acknowledgement of that and having a little bit of a

connection on that is really, really good.

So it's a great place to start.

Yeah.

If you, if you are not Okay.

And

you can't go to work, what's the I should,

it's not good for you.

It's not good for the business, not good for anyone.

I think we've had a great conversation.

It has probably gone to places where I, where, where, where I probably

didn't think it was gonna go, but it is all like really relevant.

So.

We, we, we talked about we should be checking in with people every day, right?

But September 11 is really a great reminder.

It's just this top up that, that people probably need to hear every

year to be like, oh, hang on a minute.

Yeah.

It is something that we need to think about.

What are some of the things that we should do on that day?

So I've gone to work, I've, I've, I've gone to work and I've

got all my staff members here, and I'm checking in with 'em.

What, what, what am I doing?

firstly acknowledge that there's probably someone right now in the business or

at work who's having problems, right?

And that's happening right now.

So, you know, and it's the four steps, which is Alec, a LEC,

which is ask if you're okay.

Then at that point, listen, you don't have to say anymore.

And they'll probably talk most of the time they do and you're not.

But again, and then encourage action is the third one, which is just,

let's do something about this.

How you feeling about this?

All that sort of stuff.

And then check in later, as you've said there, Hamish, you know?

And that's, that's a very simple process.

That is pretty well the backbone of, are you okay?

Right?

So more of those conversations, the better.

So we're encouraging people to go and look for it for one, and if they see

something, have that moment, if they can.

and, and, you know, not, not social courage, just, just realize that,

and I think as I said, it was three and four people are actually looking

we spoke about earlier before about some people might be a bit scared to

go up and ask someone if you're okay.

I think the good thing about I Okay Day kind of gives you.

A get out of free

jail card to go ask and Start that Start that ability to get you

confidence to ask people, are you

okay?

Because you can kind of, I shouldn't say get away with it on that day, but

more people are gonna be aware of it.

So

just might give that little bit more confidence to ask that the next day.

The next day, the next day.

that's kind of what I was getting at before, right?

Like we, we have this, we have this really.

Nice reset once a year, um, where we we're encouraged to, and it's, and, and it's

okay to ask if people are okay on this day because it's just, it's out there.

Someone goes up there and goes, why'd you say that to me?

And I'm, so, I was, are you okay?

yeah.

Yeah.

It's,

I'm doing it.

Okay.

Sorry mate.

Was, are you okay?

And no one's gonna do that anyway.

No No, one's gonna ask, why are you asking me?

Like, everyone's gonna be like, oh no I'm okay.

No.

No.

Well, you know, some people don't respond and in, but a lot

of people go, oh look, thanks.

Actually, I get a lot of thank yous, you know, heaps of thank yous.

I've had people, you know, I had a guy the other day who, who

saw we were at a, at a local.

Mark the other day and he saw the yellow thing and he just

had to pull over and talk to me.

'cause he had a lot on, and it was parenting basically, you know, and

he was really run down and, you know, staying up and all that sort

of stuff with, with kids and that.

But, you know, we had a chat and that sort of stuff.

And it, at the end of the day, just shook my hand.

He held my hand and just said, thank you.

And he looked me in the eyes and, which I don't know, I saw it was a

good moment, you know, I, I over the top or anything, anything like that.

I thought that's a pretty good social currency.

Shook my hand and off we went, you know?

But more people, we can connect in that space to someone

else or some help the better.

think you touched on something probably really important there, is that you

actually got something out of that.

Oh,

Like that, that you, that you felt good about that and, and I, and I think that

that's okay to have those feelings.

'cause I reckon some people will be like, oh, well hang on.

Why am I feeling all happy that I've just helped that person?

But I think it's important to encourage people to do that.

'cause you do get this.

You know, this serotonin or endorphin release after you've

gone and helped someone because it's a fucking good thing to do.

Check in on someone, make them feel good.

You feel good, and then you know, that kind of permeates

into the rest of your day life.

I, I very rarely come out of, of a situation where someone shakes

my hand like that thinking, oh, what a waste of time.

get in there and help your mates.

And, and if they're struggling, I don't care how they're struggling, if

they're limping or whatever, you don't laugh at them or you don't, whatever.

You just get in there and help 'em.

And,

Yeah, exactly.

there's nothing wrong with that.

thanks so much for coming on.

We really appreciate it.

It's good chat guys, and it's good work you're doing.

I think it's really important,