00:00:06 Sana: You know what? Listeners. Many successful leaders behind. Behind all of their success and their achievements and that glorious resume in there. There's a quiet story, one that we rarely hear or we rarely talk about. On the outside, it looks like growth charts, boardroom decisions, ambitious targets. I mean, the narrative is usually simple work harder, scale faster, win bigger. Moments of doubt, mental health struggles that never make it into quarterly reports. Personal losses that unfold quietly while the company continues to grow. There are often a lot of unseen battles behind those spreadsheets.

00:00:53 Sana: So today's conversation on the Best Blend is about that hidden side of leadership listeners. Because sometimes, sometimes the strongest leaders aren't the ones who never struggle. They are the ones who learn to lead through those struggles. Alice was my guest today. She spent years in the C-suite helping startups scale to over one hundred million dollars in revenue. She describes her role as well. Stitching, holding together the many moving pieces of fast growing companies. But while she was helping organizations expand, her personal life was facing serious challenges, including clinical depression and infertility experiences. She openly. She speaks openly about in her memoir course. Correct. And instead of hiding those experiences, she chose to examine them. And in doing so, she discovered something many leaders rarely talk about that sometimes our hardest seasons reveal strength we didn't know we had. So, listeners, let's begin with this beautiful Conversation. And Chelsea, welcome to this plan. I am really honored to have you here with us.

00:02:13 Chelsea Byers: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.

00:02:16 Sana: And Chelsea, I'm really happy. Um, I mean, I may not be able to look at it. Uh, look at this from a perspective of an entrepreneur or being at C-suite level, but then, um, when you kind of share your actual human experiences out there, um, when you write it down, when you pin it, pin them down, there's some kind of healing, um, journey that you are, you know, embarking upon. You are it's, it's therapeutic. I mean, it takes a lot of courage and vulnerability at the same time, but it is actually therapeutic because, uh, it's, it's like, you know, you are kind of unfolding a huge chapter from your book of life. So I'm really happy and I'm really thankful that you are here. So yeah.

00:03:03 Speaker 5: That's great.

00:03:03 Chelsea Byers: Thank you.

00:03:06 Speaker 1: Ah. Okay. Um. Okay.

00:03:09 Sana: Chelsea. I mean, you you come from a world in leadership stories. I mean, they often focus on outcomes, um, revenue, valuations, exits, profit and loss and all that. But your memoir focuses on something different, the human experience here. What made you decide to write openly about your mental health struggles?

00:03:32 Chelsea Byers: Thanks. That's that's such a good question. Um, I actually kind of backed into writing a memoir because I had in my mind for a long time that I wanted to write a book. And every time I started penciling out what that potential leadership book would be, um, it turned into something that I personally wouldn't want to read. I'm not saying I don't read leadership books, but I think sometimes we talk about, like you mentioned, we talk about successes or we try and give people a magic formula, right? If you do these seven steps, then you'll scale the company. It'll be amazing. Um, but I think a lot of the time when we present success like that, it makes people feel like it's not possible for them because everything's perfect. And maybe they didn't start with this magic framework. And so the more I thought about what would I want to share, I realized, okay, I really want to share stories from my own life and also talk about the experience of being in a leadership role, but never having intended to be there. Originally, I started my career as a teacher, and I never thought that I would eventually be a C level executive. And while I'm confident in my abilities, I always viewed leaders as like, you know, those people that march around and say, I am the boss or tech bros. Um, and, and that never resonated with me. So I wanted to share these stories and kind of just try and put out there that, um, leadership can look a lot different for different people, and that's actually a really good thing.

00:05:10 Sana: To be honest, it is. It is. And this is exactly something that I connect with. I mean, I also kind of, you know, picture the black coats, the white collars, um, the boisterous, uh, you know, walk in there, the bossy aura in there. I mean, you know, you kind of, you know, you feel that fear in there and you do not even feel like saying anything, expressing anything. And that kind of it honestly irks me. It irks me to that extent that I, um, I kind of feel like, you know, I should stay away from that kind of, you know, especially in your workspace is that kind of environment because it doesn't make you feel like you are a human or you are a part of that organization or a company or a startup, but you are just a, just a mere, uh, machine, a living machine working in there. So once again, I mean, I'm repeating this, but I'm really happy that you're bringing this up in open. And I think it's kind of breaking those studio types where, you know, people think that mentioning anything around mental health, mentioning anything around empathy, consciousness, all of these are like soft topics. These are soft things a leader shouldn't even talk about because a leader is, um, born strong and, you know, strong headed, strong willed. They shouldn't, shouldn't project any fear, any vulnerability onto their followers or their, you know, team members.

00:06:45 Chelsea Byers: Yeah, I think that's such a great point. And I actually had a few folks, um, even folks that were very close to me when I told them I was writing a memoir and I was going to cover some of these topics, they were like, that's really great. Are you going to be employable after this? And, Um, you know, they were from a place of love, right? Like genuinely worried. And I really thought about it, and I realized that the companies and the people that I want to work with are going to respect authenticity and be looking for that. And the folks that are put off by the fact that, you know, I mentioned mental health struggles and things like that are probably not people I'd want to work with anyway. Um, so it's kind of in this really interesting process of like creating clarity for myself, but also clarity in terms of I can't be any, any other type of leader than who I, than what is authentic to me or else it's not going to be effective. And what's authentic to me is being open and valuing being a good listener versus ordering people around. Um, and so it's, it's kind of been a, an interesting process of trying to sort of sort through, uh, it's connected with a lot of folks, which is wonderful. And I'm sure there are also folks that look at my LinkedIn profile and see that, and they're like, who is going to be a liability? She's too soft. Um, and, and I know that that's not true, but you're right. There are definitely a lot of stereotypes and, and I think they harm everyone, frankly. Um, so I think the more open we can be, the better.

00:08:23 Sana: Couldn't agree more with you, Chelsea. And it's, it's kind of unfortunate that how, uh, mostly mental health gets reduced to these labels. Um, and, you know, that's why. Exactly. That's how that's why maybe your friends asked you because, you know, it, it feels like this, um, like when we talk about career gaps, um, we talk about career transitions. Uh, there's this intrinsic fear that, you know, whether I'm going to get employed once again or not, whether I'm, I'm going to be in demand or not, you know, whether companies will trust on me or not. But I think if we look at, uh, you know, the researchers and the studies out there, um, I think I kind of remember, uh, so Brené Brown's work, you know, uh, she mentions like vulnerability in leadership, it suggests that teams actually trust leaders more when they feel the person at the top is real, not just polished. So it all makes sense.

00:09:29 Chelsea Byers: Yeah, I think that's absolutely I see that play out in the workplace. And one example that I always think about, I was a VP of product at a startup and kind of on the younger end of the leadership team. And in the background, my husband and I were trying to conceive and I was trying to start a family. And infertility is something pretty awkward to talk about at the workplace. At least it was for me, and it certainly was when I worked with all men. Um, and because it was just hard for them to relate, right? Or unfortunately, I think fertility can be seen as a women's issue. Um, when it's really about families and this chief marketing officer that I worked with, um, I just kind of, I had had a miscarriage and I just disclosed her and I was like, hey, I just want you to know if I seem a little off, like this is what I'm going through in the background. It shouldn't affect my work. But, you know, I'm, I'm struggling and I might be gone for some appointments and things like that. And she said, oh, I'm so glad you told me because I went through, um, three cycles of IVF and I had eight miscarriages. And she, uh, at the point that I met her, had just adopted two beautiful twins and, um, was, you know, kind of a mother for the first time. And when she told me that I, I cried because it was such a kind of thing for her. I saw her as like, your life is perfect. You're a woman. C level executive. This is amazing. She's one of the only female leaders I'd ever worked with. Um, and in that sense, like, she wasn't babying me. She was sharing something that was vulnerable. And it's exactly like you mentioned. It really made me trust her. Um, I felt like psychologically safe to just be able to say, I'm going through this. And then what she shared with me, um, was it was such a big gift because it really made me feel like I wasn't alone and therefore, like I had a place, um, in the company in a different way, uh, in a way that I had felt kind of like the odd person out before. And I realized I wasn't, um, so I, I think I really connect with what you mentioned about vulnerability, creating trust and creating good teams. And she was such a wonderful example of that.

00:11:53 Sana: That's really a very, very wonderful example because Yeah, I mean, in those situations, it's very natural that, you know, you'll kind of get ready because you feel safe in there. And when you feel safe in there, it's like, you know, the the gates are opening the floodgates. They open and kind of be, uh, the exact person that you are from inside. If you are feeling teary eyed, you cry. If you're feeling happy, you cry in happiness, you're crying joy. And I think, um, we kind of always, um, yearn for, um, someone, especially in the workplace, you know, who could understand because sometimes the situations, um, they kind of really get bypassed as excuses, um, that you are bypassing accountability, you are bypassing responsibility. You're not, you're not, um, worthy enough to be a part of the company because you're not putting your two hundred percent in this. So you, I mean, you know, that person never knows that. How you know the person. The. The latter is showing up. What trials and tribulations they might be going through and they're still showing up in their work. So yeah.

00:13:08 Chelsea Byers: I, I think that's so true. And, and also, if you, if you have employees that are maybe only giving one hundred percent and not their two hundred percent. The fact that that woman was vulnerable with me. Then when I was on better footing later, I gave three hundred percent. Right. I really cared. Um, because she had established that with me. And I think it's, it really makes me think that like building trust within teams is a, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Right? It's not about like trying to look perfect every day. It's about, okay, allowing someone to have a tough time and sit with them and retain them. And then you have this amazing person on your team that you never would have had that level of dedication and enthusiasm for the work if you hadn't put yourself out there.

00:14:03 Sana: True, but it's kind of rare, don't you think? Jesse.

00:14:08 Chelsea Byers: I think it's rare, but it's also, um. So it's interesting. I worked with a lot of like entrepreneurs, CEOs and they are, I will say they are their own breed, like having the, the chutzpah to ask for millions of dollars to start a company. Like that's a very particular kind of person. Um, but oftentimes there are a lot of people things that those early stage founders are not that good at. They, they don't necessarily start a company and raise capital because they want to hire people and build teams and make processes great and have good customer success. Right. Like they want to be the visionary that's out talking at TechCrunch and in the news articles, and they want to be a front facing person. And so I've actually found that having a, for lack of a better word, like a personality like mine, which maybe, um, on paper, at least to me didn't seem like it would be super obviously suited for business has been a really good partnership for, for those folks. And yes, they're mostly men. Um, but for those entrepreneurs that need somebody and want a partner who can kind of like look after the whole team while they look external facing. So it's, I think you're right that it's rare and it's rare to have those, um, opportunities to see a different type of leadership, but it's really valued when you put yourself out there and show just how tightly that kind of leadership can knit a team together and what a team can do. If they're really motivated and they feel psychologically safe. Um, coming to the workplace.

00:16:01 Speaker 6: Yeah. Yeah. And it kind of gets passed on.

00:16:04 Sana: I mean, you build your legacy. I mean, whichever capacity it is, you want to build your legacy, you, you, you make future leaders out there who would be probably, you know, will be entrepreneurs or founders. And, and they kind of impart those values that they have.

00:16:23 Speaker 6: Uh.

00:16:24 Sana: They have absorbed from you and they pass on to, you know, build more and more future leaders. Not maybe not exactly like them, but the foundational values are exactly what you, um, have aligned yourself and your work, your company with your vision with.

00:16:42 Chelsea Byers: Yeah, I hope so. I think there's a ripple effect. And going back to what you mentioned about, um, some of those Other leadership skills like being a good listener, seeming soft. Um, I think once folks see it in action, it becomes like an essential part of a well-functioning organization versus like this is fluffy. Um, and so when I think about, for example, I've had worked with CEOs that were like, okay, well, you know, you don't really need to meet with your team members all the time. And I, the CEO didn't necessarily come to all hands meetings and I would kind of push back and say like, well, it's really important that you at least have some connection with these folks. Um, and that leader viewed it as fluffy. Um, but the result was there was crazy attrition at that company, uh, because of the things he didn't see were important. So he was like, I'm paying people that should be enough. Um, but if you calculated like all the missed opportunities in that company because folks were demotivated left. Um, you can put very tangible dollar signs on the value of having a team that, that trust each other. And it's not even necessarily about making people feel good. I always kind of bristle at when folks say, oh, the, the workplace is a family because, uh, to me it's not. You can't fire your family. Um, you know, you hopefully. Um, but I have, I always think, like, if I work with people, I've worked with folks that I've, I've personally been laid off and I've had to lay people off and I've worked with folks that have laid me off and that I have laid off again at other companies. And to me, that's a sign of success that, like, we trust each other enough that if there was a layoff that I was involved in architecting, I was transparent about it. They knew that I did my best. I could explain the decision even if they didn't like it. Um, and that transparency has always led to like lasting relationships where we want to work with each other again. We want to do good work. And they trust that I'm not going to, um, the trust that I will do as best as I can. I, you know, we can't always make money and profit out of thin air, but they're not going to be blindsided. Um, so that's kind of a tangent, but I do think that it gets viewed as fluffy and oh, work is not a family. And I agree it's not. But um, if you can have working relationships that persist beyond one single company, I actually think that's the sign of a really good leader.

00:19:32 Sana: It is, it is. Yeah. That's a, that's a great point that you put forth. Chelsea. And um, one idea from your book that um, stood out to me is that a leader's hidden strengths often come from their the biggest failures. And, um, of course, this goes against a lot of leadership messaging, you know, tending to highlight only the wins in there. So looking back at your own journey, Chelsea, um, any specific failure or difficult experience that ended up shaping your leadership style the most?

00:20:11 Chelsea Byers: That's such a good question. And I have to immediately know the answer choice, my personal answer to that one. So, um, I had, uh, during university in high school, I had a strong academic career and always performed pretty well in university. And, um, I just kind of figured the workplace would be a lot like school. Um, you know, you, you put in the most effort and you wow people with hopefully some cool things that you make and everything kind of follows a line. But my first job after college, I joined teach for America, which is part of AmeriCorps. It's kind of like the Peace Corps, but for civil service. And so I volunteered and became qualified to teach, um, seventh grade. So like twelve year olds, uh, math, mathematics in Oakland and California, which is a, um, really a city that had really high violent crime, um, also a very diverse multicultural city. And on average, students were, by the time they were in fifth grade, they were on average three grade levels behind their peers in Palo Alto, across the bay where the wealthy tech company folks are. And so, um, I started, I got my school assignment and I set up my classroom and I prepared these great what I thought were great PowerPoint lectures for these seventh graders because that's what how I was taught in university. Um, and you can probably imagine how well they love that, which was not a lot. Um, seventh graders, like do not like to be talked at. I had the school is really underfunded. So I had thirty five students and it was just me and I was twenty three and the classroom was chaos. Um, they almost all spoke Spanish as a second language. I had learned Mandarin Chinese in high school. Like it was just a whole. I was a fish out of water and on a, on a serious note, like I really felt like I was failing every day because I wasn't just like messing up a marketing presentation. And I was going to be the reason that these kids maybe didn't pass algebra and therefore had a significantly worse chance of, um, graduating high school. And so, uh, I kind of viewed, I failed a lot and I was put on a performance improvement plan my first year and my principal was absolutely right to do it. And I called my mentor at teach for America and said, I'm, I'm failing at this. I'm, I'm so upset. I'm on a performance improvement plan. Like I don't know what I should do. And my mentor said, um, you know what, your performance improvement plan, she gave you very specific things to do. You should do that. And she really said, like, good teachers aren't born, they're made. And it depends how much you care about getting good at this. Um, and my response was, I care a lot. I feel like I am not naturally good at this, but let me try to just iterate and vacuum up as many best practices as I can. And that was, um, by the end of my two years, my students actually made over a year of academic progress, which means I helped them catch up in math, which felt amazing. Um, and there are lots of, of kind of specific lessons in leadership takeaways that I learned from, um, from that, that are in my book. But the biggest thing that I found aside from, um, that experience of failing at something that I really cared about, uh, was also that I had to adopt my own style of leadership in the classroom because trying to copy the folks that worked around me would have been really not effective. Um, I had some colleagues who were like really fun and enthusiastic and playful, and I wasn't even playful when I was twelve. Like as I was not as exciting as they were. So I was like, well, that's out. I'm not going to be like the, the jokester teacher that's super engaging in that way. Um, I had some other colleagues that were from the neighborhood and had these really authentic experiences of growing up in Oakland and going through the system, and I couldn't fake my way into those. And if I tried, the students would not respect me, um, for trying to adopt an identity that wasn't mine. And so I really had to think about, okay, well, what are the things that I'm, that are authentic to me in a leader? And it was being calm. That's something that I learned how to do and was like part of my background and, um, thinking about the ways that I showed respect to others, which were like, was sounds simple, but like being polite and, you know, asking for things nicely. And so it was really funny because we had this, uh, classroom in what would have been called a quote unquote dangerous area. Um, although the students and the families were lovely, uh, but there would be these like gregarious classrooms. And then my classroom, the students were like, oh, can I please have a tissue? And I'd be like, yes, thank you so much for asking. Um, and, but you know, like, they, they respected that because they realized that I was being authentic about, um, showing what was important to me and I was putting time in. And so, you know, they were happy to go along with my different systems and my kind of calm style because I wasn't pretending to be someone else. So I think that's probably a longer of an answer than, um, than intended. But just to kind of loop back that early failure in terms of having a job that I really wasn't good at, um, I guess naturally I wasn't talented at, but I cared a lot about and then was able to get better at, I think was like the most helpful thing for me in learning how to be, um, in developing leadership skills that were like a through line through the rest of my career.

00:26:38 Speaker 5: Wow.

00:26:39 Sana: And this is the, you know, this is just honestly one of those were, um. It's not about that. Um. I was really good, and still it was not working. I mean, it speaks of that you were aware of the shortcomings and you were twenty three and, uh, you had all these expectations. Of course, more and more dominated by the external factors and conditions. But then you knew the shortcomings yet because you cared a lot about it. You still stuck with it. I mean, it speaks about, you know, that not blind confidence, but that confidence and conviction in there, that belief that, yes, I can overcome these. Maybe I can be nimble, I can be flexible, I can learn, and then I can grow. Because, you know, especially this when you when you spoke about this, you know, personal improvement, uh, you know, performance improvement plan. I'm very sure because I have personally connected with it, many of the listeners will definitely connect with it. I mean, I have so many stories, can I.

00:27:51 Speaker 5: Say.

00:27:52 Sana: I mean, and it's more on the ethical line where, um, I mean, since I come from a sales and business development background and I'll be very honest. You know, when you were mentioning about, you know, the school, the university, like get, you know, you were, you were a brilliant student in there and you thought kind of, you know, the workplace or the work the world out there is kind of similar to this. This is exactly what, you know, I used to think. I mean, I, I was, I was a good student, um, good grades, but the kind of expectations are, I mean, or the, um, my thought about, you know, the, the world out there was similar to this linear just work hard. You'll get. You'll get awards. You'll get your grades. You'll perform. People will award you. And that's it. Life is good. But it was a completely opposite. And in fact, I was also not very much, you know, uh, and, um, I didn't have many friends in there. Just a few friends. And I was. Yeah, to be honest, just one word. I was very nerdy, so.

00:29:05 Chelsea Byers: We probably would have been friends.

00:29:07 Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly.

00:29:08 Sana: So my, my, uh, what, you know, lens of looking at everything was. You work hard, you would just be yourself. You get the recognition. That's it. You are done. But, uh, then I kind of got to understand, you know, how exactly all this work. And instead of. You know, many people would think, no, this is not something for me. Let's just go ahead and do something else. Then the second option is also not working. So let's quit this also. Then work something else. Instead of, um, Entirely rejecting it. Uh, you kind of adopt it yourself. I think that's kind of the, um, flexibility and that's kind of the approach that, you know, I think it should be there. I mean, even if you are in the leadership position or not, I mean, if life is throwing curveballs at you, there is there is probably a huge reason behind it. And, um, I mean, you know, at that time, uh, I had to make a very, very difficult choice. I mean, in fact, you know, some things were not ethically done in that particular company. It was a startup, uh, as well. And something that I really felt that, you know, this is actually very, very detrimental. And I also got, uh, the Pip, uh, performance improvement plan just because I discussed that with my immediate manager and he said, okay, forget about it. If you just achieve, uh, five X or six x of this target, I'll let you stay in the company and you need not say anything about this Does anyone else? I said no, I'm really sorry. This doesn't make any sense. Even if I try my two hundred percent three hundred best, I won't be able to achieve the target. And moreover, this is not something that I would work. I mean, it's a completely against, um, not even my ethics, but this is not, not something that, you know, it's going to survive and, uh, right. You know, before, I mean, during pandemic, that exact company kind of, you know, completely got obliterated, obliterated. I mean, I now think that, yes, I had to make a very hard choice. I was out of job for almost, um, three or two or three months, you know, because I was fresh out of college, I was paying my own brand. I had to survive. I had fought with my parents. So it was kind of very difficult time for me. But then when I look back, I think, yeah, I made a good decision.

00:31:29 Chelsea Byers: Yeah, yeah. And I think that's a really when I kind of think about like, it sounds like we're, we might have similar characters and we were in similar positions where we both had to form an improvement plan. And when I think back to like, why was it a great decision for you to leave and why was it probably a good decision for me to stay? I think, um, I wasn't at a company that was doing things that were unethical. I felt like I was failing my students. Like I felt like the. In other words, I was doing something that I was passionate about. I just wasn't good at it yet. Um, and I think that that's been probably in your case, like leaving that company allowed you to pursue things that you were more passionate about. Um, and I think those both speak to this idea that, yeah, when I finished college, I did think my career would be linear. I thought it would be okay, I'm going to do this and then I'm going to get that title, and then I'm going to apply for the scholarship and go to grad school. And, um, it's more looked like a, like a child's scribble than a line, right? But, um, I think being able to ground yourself, this is one of those things that I think sounds fluffy, but I actually think it's really tangible and important. And that's we do really good work when we, when we are doing things that we care about. And, and I think, yeah, that's, that's what excites others too, right? When they, um, when I hire someone, even if they come from something kind of niche, but I see that they put so much effort into it, um, and really care to get good at their area of expertise. Like those are the folks, um, that I always want on a team. So it's, it's interesting how life can really mess with your idea of a linear path, but in a good way.

00:33:21 Speaker 5: In a good way, of course, of course. So, um, uh, Chelsea, this was.

00:33:27 Sana: Such a kind of a very refreshing one for me. Um, and before we wrap up, um, one quick question. And I think this kind of circles back to where we started. Um, and once again, it's around, you know, this very growing narrative, uh, that leaders should be more vulnerable. Like, you know, some executives worry that too much vulnerability, it could undermine authority. It will look like you're soft or you're weak. So, uh, Chelsea, is there a line where vulnerability stops helping and starts becoming risky in leadership?

00:34:05 Chelsea Byers: I think that's such a good question. Um, I do think there's such thing as oversharing and I kind of bring that back to like, your workplace is not your family and they're not your therapists. So, um, when I think about like, sometimes I'll know an employee is going through a hard time or there's something going on with them and I'll just ask and give them like a safe space to tell me if. And oftentimes it's like my kid's sick or my mother fell and broke her hip. And so I've been, you know, trying to juggle everything and drive back and forth to help her. Um, I think a lot of it building trust is about like creating safety for people to share what's going on. You don't always have to. You don't have to problem solve with them. If they're struggling, you can sit with them and then point them to resources. Um, you know, I don't if I, I'm happy to share about, um, dealing with depression because that's been a big part of my life and there was a lot of stigma around it. And so when I share kind of like it, I feel like it's a little thing going out into the world of reducing stigma and that makes me happy. But at the same time, um, I wouldn't put out to my direct reports or my colleagues, like, here's how I'm feeling today. Do you think I should up my medication with my therapist? Right. Like that's, that's a, that's an area like they don't need to know. But I, I'm happy to kind of just put out there like, yeah, I'm a person and I've dealt with this and things have gotten better on the other side. Um, so that's kind of how I view the line as like, your coworkers aren't a family, but they're people that you care about and you want to create psychological trust with. And that's usually, I think, um, helps me be pretty clear on what's helpful versus what's harmful to folks.

00:36:03 Speaker 5: MM mm.

00:36:05 Sana: And that kind of balance is actually, it takes a lot of, uh, time and, um, uh, you know, clarity because, uh, I think, yes, there are boundaries in there. Uh, I mean, yeah, we do talk about, uh, and I also do agree that, you know, both your personal and professional lives are intertwined with each other. But then, um, if you look at, look at the practical side of it. Um, I have to be more conscious. You know, let's in interviews, if I'm oversharing about my personal, um, life and the reasons why did I leave the job? I mean, I should kind of be a bit more conscious because I don't want to, uh, you know, put anyone thinking about me that, you know, she's not good with handling both the words and there's probably she's not a good employee to be. Yeah. To be dedicated for this job.

00:37:07 Chelsea Byers: Yeah, I, I do think it's a balance. Um, but I also think that that sorting thing kind of happens. So like if I'm, for example, I would never ask an employee, it's not even legal, but I wouldn't do it anyway. If I was trying to hire, I would never say like, are you planning to have a family or, you know, ask about their personal lives beyond what they share. But I will share, like I will share with folks that I'm a mom. Um, I will share with folks like things that I've found really helpful about that other colleagues have done things they've done to be kind. Um, you know, I'll talk about, yeah, I've had a commute that was really long before and it really burned me out. Um, so I think again, um, if I'm a hiring manager, it's not about fishing for their details. It's about saying like, I'll put some of my stuff out there just so you know, this is a safe place to be and you're not going to be penalized for these things. Um, because there are folks here that have kind of walked that road before. Um, and if I'm interviewing for a place like, yeah, I am more careful, but I also look for leaders that, um, you know, if, if I have one as a candidate and I'm talking to a hiring manager and they just tell me how awesome they are, it's kind of a red flag to be honest, like, Uh, I like, I really want to work with people that, um, can admit that they're wrong or even talk about if they have a family and they, they never mention doing any child care that maybe is a red that's like a little bit of an orange flag to me. So, um, it's, uh, yeah, again, I think for me, if I'm hiring folks and it's just about like creating space and trying to help them feel safe, but not fishing for their personal details. And, um, as a candidate, I think it's, it's always a blind date, right? But we try our best to work with folks that have our values and the further we get along in our career, I think the pickier we get to be, which is a lucky thing.

00:39:17 Speaker 5: It is.

00:39:18 Speaker 7: It is. That's such a brilliant point for Chelsea. Brilliant, superb. Um, so Chelsea, before we wrap.

00:39:25 Sana: Up, um, of course, I think our listeners will have so much to share. They would love to connect with you. Also, they would like to get a hold of your memoir. So please share with us how we all can connect with you.

00:39:40 Chelsea Byers: Absolutely. I'm active on Substack. I have a Substack called The Executive Front, and it's a newsletter you can subscribe to, but it's also a really good place to chat. Um, just other folks that care about these ideas of authentic leadership and being strong. For vulnerability and just navigating workplace challenges. So Substack is a great place to find me. Chelsea Byers executive Front um, of course, I'm on LinkedIn because we all have to be, but I'm happy to connect with any folks on LinkedIn. Um, and then the book is course correct. You can find it on Amazon wherever you live. And I would love to hear, um, what people think and, and their takeaways as they interact with it.

00:40:24 Speaker 5: Amazing.

00:40:25 Sana: That's really amazing. And, uh, I'll make sure that all the details are mentioned in the show notes, so find them attached along with this episode on whichever platform you are streaming our episode right now on this blend. And uh, hey, honestly, listeners, one thing this conversation, and it really reminds me personally that, uh, yes, leadership is about many of those things. Strategy. Um, but then, you know, we, we are humans. I mean, it's about humanity. And behind every company milestone, people there are people navigating their own personal journeys as well. The doubts, losses, challenges that never you would see in the annual reports. And I think Chelsea's story brilliantly reminds us that resilience doesn't come from pretending that those struggles don't exist, but it comes from learning how to move through them. I mean, get down and how you get up. How many times you can get up. And of course, sometimes the very experiences that feel like setbacks, they are the ones that shape the leaders. We eventually become the human that eventually become so. Chelsea, thank you so much for this. Such a such a such a heartwarming and very, very empowering chat. I really loved it.

00:41:52 Chelsea Byers: Thanks so much. I did too. Thanks so much for having me on. It's a great chat.

00:41:57 Sana: Thank you. Thank you Chelsea. Thank you to all the listeners for tuning into this blend. And if you loved listen to this episode, do share your love. I would encourage all of you to follow this blend. Not because we have perfect answers, but because every week, every day, we sit down with people who are building, leading, and navigating real challenges in not only business, but in life as well. So thank you so much for tuning in. Until next time. This is your host signing off. Thank you.